"Hammocks are LIGHTER"??

[C-Stepper]

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT SLEEPING COMFORT. PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC.

This is somewhat related to the "XUL or UL?" thread below, which has some good ideas. But...

Sometimes on whiteblaze, hammockers chime in that, to go light, one should try a hammock.

Maybe I'm missing something here...this statement that hammocks are lighter puzzles me.

Is a subjective thing?

They don't seem "light" to me...comfort can be argued, I don't see how "light" can be defensible. I haven't seen evidence that hammocks are "light"...maybe lighter than a free-standing tent with a rainfly, but does this qualify them as lighter?

[Heater]

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT SLEEPING COMFORT. PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC.

This is somewhat related to the "XUL or UL?" thread below, which has some good ideas. But...

Sometimes on whiteblaze, hammockers chime in that, to
<SNIP>

Uhmmm... your's was the first post in the thread!

[dougmeredith]

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT SLEEPING COMFORT. PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC.
I guess it is good to have dreams. :)


Sometimes on whiteblaze, hammockers chime in that, to go light, one should try a hammock.
Obviously a hammock isn't the lightest possible option. Sleeping under a tarp or a hammock both require a tarp. Sleeping on the ground under a tarp requires a groundsheet that is lighter than a hammock. The insullation weights are similar, but if anything you would need more insulation in a hammock due to greater heat loss from below.

Doug

[peter_pan]

" Hammocks are lighter"…."Than what?" some ask.

There are many hammocks lighter than most all commercial backpacking tents….hammocks that are below 32 oz compete with tarp tents which come in at about this weight… Hammocks that are below 16 oz ( Hennessy Adventure Racer, Hennessy Extreme Light Racer without the tarp, Amazonia traveler, And several other non bug netted models are lighter than the pad and ground cloth alone that tarpers use…for example Exped Down Mat 7 Short w/ pump 22.5 oz, Down Mat 7 reg 31.5 oz, Pro Lite 3 med 20 oz, many original style Thermorest self-inflaters at 16-26 oz … some even compete with foam pads at 12-15 oz for a full length model…don’t forget the ground cloth, plastic sheet 2-5 oz depending on thickness and size…2-2.5 oz mylar space blanket, half that, if cut in half.

While all but the warmest season will require some insulation for a hammock bottom there are several viable solutions below 16 oz that will handle the job to 45 degrees.

Search this site for the threads on weights of your Big Four and Big Three you will find many posts by hammockers below 7,6,5, and some pushing 4 pounds….only the occasional UL tarper is posting summaries below these weights….Carol Crooker, Editor of Backpackinglight.com has posted reports on that site on two hikes this summer using hammocks and meeting the under 5 pound SUL challenge … that is entire base weight and not just big three or four weight.

I agree that there are a few ground dweller below these weights, most are using pads below 40 x 19 inch and thin foam or inflateables less than 1 inch thick and tarps the size of a poncho or less.

As a general statement , " Hammocks are lighter" is very defensible IMHO.

Pan

[12hrsN2AT]

I have also noticed that the lightweight hammocks being talked about have cautions to their fragility. I am a big guy that tends to take the rocky road and the cautions have always thrown me a bit. Imagine spending $200 on a piece of Nylon that you can't use in the rugged outdoors.

[trippclark]

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT SLEEPING COMFORT. PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC.

This is somewhat related to the "XUL or UL?" thread below, which has some good ideas. But...

Sometimes on whiteblaze, hammockers chime in that, to go light, one should try a hammock.

Maybe I'm missing something here...this statement that hammocks are lighter puzzles me.

Is a subjective thing?

They don't seem "light" to me...comfort can be argued, I don't see how "light" can be defensible. I haven't seen evidence that hammocks are "light"...maybe lighter than a free-standing tent with a rainfly, but does this qualify them as lighter?

Well, I did not jump in on the other thread you referenced, but I am a hammock camper and advocate and moving to a hammock, for me, saved considerable weight and the unmentionable comfort was a significant bonus.

There are lighter options, to be sure. I could use a small lightweight tarp and no pad, but I am not willing to go there. That certainly would be much lighter though. If you compare a hammock weight to a tent weight alone, the difference is minimal, but when you look at the whole systems, the differences CAN BE more significant. As the mercury drops, I will concede, the weights get closer together.

In my situation, before switching to a hammock, I was carrying a 4 lb tent (not free standing), a 1 lb. Z-rest, and a 2 lb. 2 oz. down bag, so the total weight for shelter and sleeping was 7 lbs 2 oz. This was for 3 seasons.

Now, my weights are usually one of these two options:

Option #1
Speer Hammock with 8x10 tarp = 32 oz.
down Speer TopBlanket = 16 oz.
Peapod (I purchased with 1 extra oz of down) = 29 oz.
Total = 77 ounces or 4.8 lbs.
** note that in cold weather you can and probably would leave home the removeable bug net from the Speer set up. This would save a few more ounces . . . maybe 5 or 6 oz would be my guess.

Option #2
Hennessy Ultralight backpacker (Remove the HH small fly and replace with the 8x10 Speer tarp above. The HH as sold is 31 oz. I do not know the weight of the HH tarp. The 8x10 Speer is 13 oz. My GUESS is that after swapping the tarps this rig is probably 33oz.)
down Speer TopBlanket = 16 oz.
Jacks R Better Nest Underquilt = 20 oz.
Total = 69 oz or 4.3 lbs.

So, moving to the hammock, for me, saved 2.5 - 3 lbs off of my shelter and sleeping systems, while at the same time providing the increased comfort AND more options for locations to set up camp.

In extreme cold (below 20 degrees), I would either (1) not go, (2) go to ground begrudgingly, or (3) use:
Speer Hammock with 8x10 tarp = 32 oz.
down Speer TopBlanket = 16 oz.
Peapod = 29 oz.
Jacks R Better Nest Underquilt = 20 oz.
Total = 6 lbs 1 oz. (bulky, but still lighter than my old tent, pad, and sleeping bag solution)

Are there lighter solutions? Of course! But for me this was a no-brainer . . . cut my weight by as much as 40% for shelter/sleeping AND the other benefits.

[tlbj6142]

Imagine spending $200 on a piece of Nylon that you can't use in the rugged outdoors.Last time I checked you don't put your hammock on the ground. Or drag it through the woods. So, what exactly about a hammock must be "rugged"? Do you sleep with an opened mini-tool in your pocket?

And, last time I checked, almost every tent on the market these days is nylon.

[Youngblood]

...I agree that there are a few ground dweller below these weights, most are using pads below 40 x 19 inch and thin foam or inflateables less than 1 inch thick and tarps the size of a poncho or less...
To be fair, you need to compare the lightest weight hammock setup against the lightest weight ground setup... that was what this this thread was questioning.

For me, I added weight when I switched from a light weight ground setup to a light weight hammock setup... but not much. I gained enough in comfort and camp site selection in the envirnoment that I hike in that it was worth it for me. I have since added a tad more weight to increase comfort, safety, etc... but again, not more than was worth it for me.

And of course this is all for solo camping, the dynamics shift a whole lot if you are sharing a shelter with someone. The dynamics also shift with body weight and body size... for instance you can use a ultra light ground cloth regardless of how much you weigh but you can't use a hammock bed made of 1.1 oz ripstop unless you are under a certain body weight.

I mentioned envirnoment before... envirnoment can shift the dynamics also, especially very cold conditions. Now, if you were camping where you didn't need insulation for warmth, it gets dang close and you might even have less weight with a hammock if your body weight is light enough and you don't mind sleeping tucked up in a very small tarp... because it is possible to hammock camp with a smaller tarp that a ground dweller can.

Youngblood

[neo]

my 1.6 hennessey hammock is 1 lb 10 oz,its lighter than the asym ultra light
hammocks,by swapping out the original factory smaller tarp for a jacks are better tarp and adding longer tree hugger straps,my hammock is 2lbs and 1 oz.
my speer sleep quilt wieghs 1 lb 9 oz i have used it in the upper 20,s no problem
i dont need a ground cloth because i am off the ground,dont need a pillow either
my sleep pad wieghs 6oz.:cool: neo


PS.HAMMOCKS ARE MORE COMFORTABLE,AND I CAN CAMP IN MORE PLACES
:cool: NEO

[thomassv]

I love my hammock. I've had it for years. I'm never going back to anything else. Extremely comfortable. Comfort is a priority for lightweight packing, isn't it?

[12hrsN2AT]

Last time I checked you don't put your hammock on the ground. Or drag it through the woods. So, what exactly about a hammock must be "rugged"? Do you sleep with an opened mini-tool in your pocket?

And, last time I checked, almost every tent on the market these days is nylon.
Then why do you trust everything Mr. Hennesy says except the part where he warns over and over that they are for adventure racers only. You confused what I said with what I was repeating of the HH website. I am sure he has a grasp on UL hiking, I am sure he knows what works well for what, I would imagine he has some experience in the field.

[neo]

the wieght of my pack 1 lb 9 oz
the wieght of my hammock
and tarp is 2 lb 1 oz
my over quilt is 1 lb 9 oz
my new sleep pad is 6 oz 6 oz
my big 4 total is 5 lb 9 oz

:cool: neo

[tlbj6142]

Then why do you trust everything Mr. Hennesy says except the part where he warns over and over that they are for adventure racers only. So we shouldn't include them in gearlists comparing hammocks to ground sleeping? Is that your point?

[Tha Wookie]

That's pretty good, Neo.

Just to contast a tarp setup:

I have

Pack 12.5 Oz
pad 6oz
tarp/stakes (1lb)
bugnet(8 oz)
sleeping quilt (2lb)

4 lb 10.5 oz

Add in my camera, tripod, lenses, and film (5lbs):

9lb 10.5

I'm thinking the "big three or four" makes much less of an issue with light gear. all the sudden everything has more evenly proportioned weight.

[12hrsN2AT]

So we shouldn't include them in gearlists comparing hammocks to ground sleeping? Is that your point? Boy I am really sorry you are misinterpiting everything I write.
What I meant is the Hennesy Hammocks takes the position that these lightweight hammocks are for adventure racers ONLY, and allot of people here use them as a benchmark for weight in a Hammock sleeping system. Foregoing any warnings by the company that makes them.

I have tried to say this 3 times and I am sorry I am not clear. My point was I would not buy a $200 hammock from a company that tells me it is not intended for Hiking. This is not my opinion, this is the manufacturers warning.

[Youngblood]

I'll try to referee because I think you both have it right.

Hennessy made the 'racer' series for a specific application (adventure racing) where weight was crutial and durability was sacrificed because the adventure racing folks were happy if it got them through one race. He points that out, reduces the weight limit (there probably aren't too many big folks doing adventure racing?) and the warrenty. That's all fair enough. Now if ultralight folks want to use it for backpacking, that's okay too... but the failure risk is on them not Hennessy. That's fair also. That's about all there is to it.

Youngblood

[Alligator]

... because it is possible to hammock camp with a smaller tarp that a ground dweller can.

YoungbloodI'm not sure I would agree with you on this last statement Youngblood. Maybe a little discussion. The tarp is the rain fly yes? So whatever serves a person swinging under their shelter should serve a person on the ground no? IMO, tarp size should be equal for both cases.

As far as insulation, Doug has indicated that the hammocker needs more than the ground sleeper. Does anyone dispute this?

As for sleeping, IMO, equivalent quilts could be used in both cases.

For a tarp then, what is left? I say stakes, lines, and bug netting. 50' ft of triptease weighs one ounce, 6 titanium stakes at what, 0.22 oz? Plus bug netting. My rectangular cot netting weighs 7 oz. Plus a ground cloth, I cut mine at about 3X8 out of 3mil plastic, but I haven't weighed this. One could forego the ground cloth with a closed cell pad. Are there netted hammocks lighter than all this?

The hammock is likely more comfortable and allows for additional camping in wooded areas. [This is called a concession by the way.] But I don't see it as being lighter than a tarp set up.

[Beachwalker]

I like Youngblood's idea...
So what's the lightest you can come in with a Hammock and "bottom insulation?"
A TarpTent Virga, which is fully enclosed, with the floor, weighs in at 26oz., and the ProLite3 full size is 20 ounces. 46 total. Swap the a Z Lite 3/4 for the prolite and you save 9 ounces, 37oz. total weight. And, you can go down from there by using a straight tarp, etc.

So what's the lightest "useable by all" hammock arrangement come in at?


- BW

[rgarling]

Sometimes on whiteblaze, hammockers chime in that, to go light, one should try a hammock.

Embedded in this suggestion is an assumed level of comfort for a given weight. Your attempt to remove comfort from the equation creates your conceptual problem. Clearly, you could just lay down on the ground, which is obviously lighter than hammocking.



I haven't seen evidence that hammocks are "light"...maybe lighter than a free-standing tent with a rainfly, but does this qualify them as lighter?
Yes, by definition.

[Patrick]

My two cents.

The#Is10, I agree with what I think you're saying: that the lightest hammock set-ups (even allowing the much-argued racers) are not lighter than the lightest tarp set-ups.

You referred to the UL and XUL thread from the other day. I think that it's clear from people's posted gear lists, that plenty of hammockers fall into both categories, no matter how UL or XUL are being defined that day.

It seems reasonable to me then to say that hammocks can be part of even an XUL system, but that lower weights can be achieved with ground sleeping.

Back to your original post...

Sometimes on whiteblaze, hammockers chime in that, to go light, one should try a hammock.This does happen a lot. But I don't think that someone using the lightest ground set-up is the one it's being suggested to. From my experience, it's someone who has a tent or more conventional tarp set-up that is being told they can lighten their load.

Is a subjective thing?Obviously, taking two systems and comparing their weights side by side is completely objective. What I think changes from person to person though, is what they have when someone suggests hammocking as a means of going lighter. I used to use a homemade silnylon tarp, homemade small bugnet, store-bought synthetic sleeping bag, and 2-mil painter's plastic to sleep on the ground. I think you can call that a pretty common light weight approach -- lighter than the average hiker but not lighter than a dedicated XUL hiker.

I made the switch to a Hennessy Hammock based on comfort and site selection, not weight, but I ended up with a system that was almost a pound lighter. So, to an average guy like me, I got a nice weight savings, even though a true XUL would almost definitely add weight.

I'll try to avoid the comfort issue as instructed (although it's not easy), but will say that I think the possible weights of the two different systems are close enough that a person could reasonably decide that other factors other than weight might be what decides how they choose to camp.

[trippclark]

So what's the lightest "useable by all" hammock arrangement come in at?


Here are a couple of very light hammock arrangements. I am not considering the "racer" models. I think that was what you meant by "useable by all."

Option 1:
Hennessy Backpacker UL ASYM w/o HH tarp = 23.5 oz
MacCat Micro tarp = 7.4 oz
JRB Nest = 20.0 oz
Speer top blanket = 16.0 oz
Total weight = 66.9 oz or 4 lbs, 2.9 oz.

Option 2 (even lighter):
Speer 8.0A hammock (without Speer tarp) = 19.0 oz*
MacCat Micro tarp = 7.4 oz
JRB "No Snivler" (as bottom insulation) = 20.0 oz
Speer top blanket = 16.0 oz
Total weight = 62.4 oz or 3 lbs, 14.4 oz.*
* in colder weather this would be a bit lighter still because you would not carry the bug netting.

These are the lightest options that I come up with. Note, however, that for me, it is worth a few extra ounces on either option for a larger tarp than the micro. Also, for me I would use the Peapod for my insulation with the Speer, even though it is 9 oz more than the "No Snivler." However, for this excercise, weight was the primary consideration.

[Rainman]

Last summer for my hike on the LT I bought a HH Backpacker ASYM at Trail Days. When I field tested it on an overnight, I got about 30 mosquito bites right through the nylon on my back, butt, and legs. When I contacted HH, their suggestions was to put a sleeping pad underneath me inside the hammock. So, if I'm carrying my Thermarest prolite anyway, I figured that blew any weight savings I might get.

I then bought an MSR Hubba and then slept in a shelter every night I was on the trail. Go figure.

When I got home I immediately bought a Tarptent Cloudburst. I cut my shelter weight in half from the Hubba and doubled my floor space.

If the shelter I'm carrying is just back up anyway, I decided to go with a tarptent and larger flor size. The Tarptent, with stakes and lines, is still light than the HH.

[trippclark]

Last summer for my hike on the LT I bought a HH Backpacker ASYM at Trail Days. When I field tested it on an overnight, I got about 30 mosquito bites right through the nylon on my back, butt, and legs. When I contacted HH, their suggestions was to put a sleeping pad underneath me inside the hammock.

Permethrin spray (available several places including the camping section at Walmart), applied directly to the hammock, provides at least 2 weeks of mosquito protection.

http://www.permethrin-repellent.com/home.htm

[tlbj6142]

Boy I am really sorry you are misinterpiting everything I write.I don't think I am. You are not typing what you want to say. Unfortunately, this medium doesn't allow for body language queues, facial expressions, etc. to help get a point across. Sorry, if I came across as an a$$hole, as that was not my point. I just didn't understand yours until now.
My point was I would not buy a $200 hammock from a company that tells me it is not intended for Hiking. This is not my opinion, this is the manufacturers warning.Now this makes perfect sense. But, then, HH does make hammocks for backpacking, they just are not the models typically listed on the XUL gear lists. Which, again, is your point.

Or, IOW, when SUL/XUL hammock campers compare gearlists with tarp/tent users they are not camparing "apples to apples". As the hammocks typically listed on such lists (namely the lighter two HH models) are not "backpacking" gear. Whereas, most tarps/tents listed are "backpacking" gear.

That said it is possible to build a SUL hammock gear lists without using one of Hennessy's non-backpacking models. It is just "easier" if you "cheat" and use one of the non-approved models.

[Alligator]

...
I made the switch to a Hennessy Hammock based on comfort and site selection, not weight, but I ended up with a system that was almost a pound lighter. So, to an average guy like me, I got a nice weight savings, even though a true XUL would almost definitely add weight.

...I'm very interested to know where your actually weight savings was. Did you end up using a smaller tarp/rainfly? Was it because the synthetic bag was replaced? Was your insulation changed out?

[flyfisher]

I like Youngblood's idea...
So what's the lightest you can come in with a Hammock and "bottom insulation?"

So what's the lightest "useable by all" hammock arrangement come in at?
- BW
My WarmHammock with integral 2 in of bottom insulation and bug net and polypro rope suspension comes in at 23.4 oz. No additional pad is necessary.

I add an 11 oz silnylon tarp and a 24.5 oz quilt for the complete sleeping system. For temperatures below 30, I replace the bugnet with a "TravelPod" for warmth and am good to about 0 with no additional increase in weight. With an additional pad in the hammock, I have taken this combination down to -15 F.

WarmHammock:
http://www.imrisk.com/hammock/warmhammock.htm
TravelPod:
http://www.imrisk.com/hammock/travelpod.htm

[Rainman]

Permethrin spray (available several places including the camping section at Walmart), applied directly to the hammock, provides at least 2 weeks of mosquito protection.

http://www.permethrin-repellent.com/home.htmThank you. I kept the hammock because it is great for hot Florida weather. I'll try the permethrin.

[Alligator]

My WarmHammock with integral 2 in of bottom insulation and bug net and polypro rope suspension comes in at 23.4 oz. No additional pad is necessary.

I add an 11 oz silnylon tarp and a 24.5 oz quilt for the complete sleeping system. For temperatures below 30, I replace the bugnet with a "TravelPod" for warmth and am good to about 0 with no additional increase in weight. With an additional pad in the hammock, I have taken this combination down to -15 F.

WarmHammock:
http://www.imrisk.com/hammock/warmhammock.htm
TravelPod:
http://www.imrisk.com/hammock/travelpod.htm
Have you taken this setup out under a full range of potential conditions at both 0 and -15F? Such as, windy conditions(20-40 mph), freezing rain, heavy snowfall (6"+)? I don't think I would want to sit out a whiteout in that setup, nor would I in a tarp for that matter either.

[The Solemates]

I have no problem carrying an extra few ounces by carrying a tent for comfort in cold temperatures. My set up:

Mtn Hdwr Waypoint II (when split between my wife and I): 1lbs 15oz each
Mtnsmith Wisp 30 deg down bag: 1lb 5oz (keeps me warm to 20-25F with clothing worn)
Modified Full Zrest: 13oz

TOTAL: 4lbs 1oz

Show me a hammock set-up that keeps you warm to 20-30F and is less weight than this. Could be a challenge. Hammocks arent really that much lighter. :-?

[flyfisher]

Have you taken this setup out under a full range of potential conditions at both 0 and -15F? Such as, windy conditions(20-40 mph), freezing rain, heavy snowfall (6"+)? I don't think I would want to sit out a whiteout in that setup, nor would I in a tarp for that matter either.
No.

I spent the one -15 night we had in the last two years outside in the set-up. It was calm. I spent 8 hours sleeping reasonably well. I was amazed and surprised that it could be done.

I have been down in the single didgets a number of times, including several nights with 15 mph wind. The one night I tried staying outdoors in a 25 mph wind was before I had the present set-up. I was using a Garlington Insulator and it blew out to the side of the hammock like a spinaker. That was cold!

I have explored the very cold nights to become comfortable with the notion of more common Ohio and AT weather - down into the teens - which is now a practical temperature for me to be camping in regularly in a hammock.

I think that real mountain weather is best done with real four season camping gear. You will not find me at high elevation on Mt Washington in the winter in a hammock. That is not the point. :-)

The real point was to answer a question by a friend who wanted to make sure that before we went in September to the Boundary Waters that I was not going to need to bail because I could not sleep. From there, it became a quest to see what temperatures were really the limit.

[trippclark]

I have no problem carrying an extra few ounces by carrying a tent for comfort in cold temperatures. My set up:

Mtn Hdwr Waypoint II (when split between my wife and I): 1lbs 15oz each
Mtnsmith Wisp 30 deg down bag: 1lb 5oz (keeps me warm to 20-25F with clothing worn)
Modified Full Zrest: 13oz

TOTAL: 4lbs 1oz

Show me a hammock set-up that keeps you warm to 20-30F and is less weight than this. Could be a challenge. Hammocks arent really that much lighter. :-?

Option 2 in Post #21 meets this challenge, I think. Of course, this is given the same conditions you list, with clothing worn.

[Patrick]

I'm very interested to know where your actually weight savings was. Did you end up using a smaller tarp/rainfly? Was it because the synthetic bag was replaced? Was your insulation changed out?Old:

Tarp (including eight stakes, stuff sack, and cord) - 26 oz
Drawstring bug shelter (including stuff sack and cord) - 5 oz
Long Cat's Meow Bag (including stuff sack) - 50 oz
8 section Z-Rest - 9 oz
2 mil plastic ground cloth - 10 oz
Total - 100 oz (6.3 lbs)

New:

Hennessy ULB (including stuff sacks, extra cord, and two stakes) - 33 oz
Synthetic quilt (including stuff sack) - 28 oz
Sythetic underquilt (including stuff sack) - 24 oz
Total - 85 oz (5.3 lbs)

This is what I mean. My old set-up could have dropped some weight, but it seems pretty normal. I actually gained a bit of weight for "soft" insulation, but ended up saving because of ditching the pad.

I know a lot of people have really light down bags, but I don't do down and there are folks using down stuff in their hammocks, so I think this is still a pretty apples-to-apples comparison.

Looking at it again now, I probably could have dropped a pound off my original list without too much trouble and still been very comfortable.

[Youngblood]

I'm not sure I would agree with you on this last statement Youngblood. Maybe a little discussion. The tarp is the rain fly yes? So whatever serves a person swinging under their shelter should serve a person on the ground no? IMO, tarp size should be equal for both cases.

As far as insulation, Doug has indicated that the hammocker needs more than the ground sleeper. Does anyone dispute this?

As for sleeping, IMO, equivalent quilts could be used in both cases.

For a tarp then, what is left? I say stakes, lines, and bug netting. 50' ft of triptease weighs one ounce, 6 titanium stakes at what, 0.22 oz? Plus bug netting. My rectangular cot netting weighs 7 oz. Plus a ground cloth, I cut mine at about 3X8 out of 3mil plastic, but I haven't weighed this. One could forego the ground cloth with a closed cell pad. Are there netted hammocks lighter than all this?

The hammock is likely more comfortable and allows for additional camping in wooded areas. [This is called a concession by the way.] But I don't see it as being lighter than a tarp set up.
Alligator,

Of course you're right about the tarp weight. (I did the same thing I got on to others about.) I was thinking of the very small HH tarps and forgot that some folks tarp with 5'x8' tarps which are about the same weight and sometimes use them as rain ponchos as well.

Youngblood

[Whistler]

I think you need to normalize this discussion a bit, using two important criteria. One, weight. Two, money. Tarpers and Hammockers, two important questions:

-How light can you go and still be comfortable for 2.5-season AT temps, say 35-40 degrees at the coldest part of the morning [and what will it cost me]?
-Also, how light can you make the tarp+ bug+ insulation+ bottomsheet combo on a $500 budget, give or take a few [and how cold can I go]?

This is a good topic. Let's see some data.
-Mark

[tlbj6142]

Show me a hammock set-up that keeps you warm to 20-30F and is less weight than this. Could be a challenge. Hammocks arent really that much lighter. :-? I think Risk did easily in post #26. Beat you by several ounces.

[Footslogger]

[QUOTE=Whistler]-Also, how light can you make the tarp+ bug+ insulation+ bottomsheet combo on a $500 budget, give or take a few [and how cold can I go]?
===============================================
I have a HH hammock but don't use it in cold weather. Here's what I use in terms of the tarp type shelter. Not as light as I'd like it but it works for me:

Six Moon Design Lunar Solo-e 23 oz (that includes floor and bug mesh)

Soft Tyvek < 4oz

Thermarest Ultralight 3/4 10 oz

20 degree down bag 2lbs 2oz

TOTAL WEIGHT: Approx 4.5 lbs

TOTAL COST: Approx $400

[Alligator]

Flyfisher,

I think you are a great innovator when it comes to hammocks. Lots of people refer to your work. I ask about field testing because when you get down to 0 or even -15F, other conditions become important also, like eating and drinking. At these temps, it is not unreasonable to need to melt snow or ice to get water. Plus cooking is a chore. Having to do this in a hammock may not be fun and could compromise one's safety IMO. Having to get in and out of the hammock to cook would create many heat losses while cooking. Just something to think about.

Also, have you thought of maybe using a vent instead of leaving the zipper open? My megalight (megamid) has a curved vent hole. It's like a flap with I think bent plastic to keep it rounded out.

[Alligator]

Old:

Tarp (including eight stakes, stuff sack, and cord) - 26 oz
Drawstring bug shelter (including stuff sack and cord) - 5 oz
Long Cat's Meow Bag (including stuff sack) - 50 oz
8 section Z-Rest - 9 oz
2 mil plastic ground cloth - 10 oz
Total - 100 oz (6.3 lbs)

New:

Hennessy ULB (including stuff sacks, extra cord, and two stakes) - 33 oz
Synthetic quilt (including stuff sack) - 28 oz
Sythetic underquilt (including stuff sack) - 24 oz
Total - 85 oz (5.3 lbs)

This is what I mean. My old set-up could have dropped some weight, but it seems pretty normal. I actually gained a bit of weight for "soft" insulation, but ended up saving because of ditching the pad.

I know a lot of people have really light down bags, but I don't do down and there are folks using down stuff in their hammocks, so I think this is still a pretty apples-to-apples comparison.

Looking at it again now, I probably could have dropped a pound off my original list without too much trouble and still been very comfortable.I would say fairly typical. I don't do down either. Most these days would have a silnylon tarp though. There's a good 10 oz at least. Mine weighs ~13oz +1 oz line and stakes. It's about 17 oz. I'd say you did lose about .5 lbs in your switch. Not sure about the groundcloth, how big was it? That seems heavy. I'm going to weigh mine when I get home.

I'm just playing devil's advocate anyway. There's no way I can sleep on a RR. I use a Prolite 4 Reg and a thermarest chair for comfort. I like being able to plop down throughout camp.

[Beachwalker]

Okay, people are adding underquilts and sleeping bags, so here I go:

Tarptent Virga 1, with floor: 26
Thermarest Prolite 3: 20
WM Ultralite (20 degrees): 26

Total: 72, (4lbs., 8oz.) and I am good for 3 seasons.

Swap my 3/4 Z Lite for the Prolite, and we're at 61oz.,(3lbs,. 13oz.) and still good for 3 seasons. Swap the Ultralite for a Highlite (35 degrees), and we're down to 51oz., (3lbs, 3oz.) full package.

So, folks, we have to include comfort as a consideration, because otherwise I am not seeing the hammocks coming out on top (on bottom?) weight-wise. People obviously love them, so the weight/comfort ratio is apparently why. It works for them... fine with me.

-- BW

[Alligator]

I think you need to normalize this discussion a bit, using two important criteria. One, weight. Two, money. Tarpers and Hammockers, two important questions:

-How light can you go and still be comfortable for 2.5-season AT temps, say 35-40 degrees at the coldest part of the morning [and what will it cost me]?
-Also, how light can you make the tarp+ bug+ insulation+ bottomsheet combo on a $500 budget, give or take a few [and how cold can I go]?

This is a good topic. Let's see some data.
-MarkCost minimization first, without home sewing.
8X10 Silnylon tarp. Campmor $65.00 13 oz.
6 titanium stakes Prolite gear 6 @ 2.15=$12.90 1.34 oz
50' Kelty Triptease Campmor $15.00 1 oz.
Mosquito netting Froogle $13.00 7 oz.
groundcloth, painters cloth or tyvek $5-10 ?
Foam pad $10-30, 6-16 oz. or
Thermarest Prolite3 Reg $80 20 oz.

I'll list two inexpensive bags.
Kelty lightyear 45F Campmor $69.99 29oz (Doing 40 in this bag is very reasonable, I wouldn't go any lower without beefing it up with warm clothes)
Campmor 20F Down $109. 36oz

That's $146(max, assuming foam pad) before the bags. $255 to go 20F. Adjustable poles go nice with a tarp, but you can get by with sticks. You've got an extra $245 to spend above the $109 for the down bag. Use it to get a better bag if you like. You could spring the extra $50. for the T-rest, then throw $30 more for a T-rest chair. That wouldn't be ultralite, but I don't leave home without them:sun .

[neo]

Last summer for my hike on the LT I bought a HH Backpacker ASYM at Trail Days. When I field tested it on an overnight, I got about 30 mosquito bites right through the nylon on my back, butt, and legs. When I contacted HH, their suggestions was to put a sleeping pad underneath me inside the hammock. So, if I'm carrying my Thermarest prolite anyway, I figured that blew any weight savings I might get.

I then bought an MSR Hubba and then slept in a shelter every night I was on the trail. Go figure.

When I got home I immediately bought a Tarptent Cloudburst. I cut my shelter weight in half from the Hubba and doubled my floor space.

If the shelter I'm carrying is just back up anyway, I decided to go with a tarptent and larger flor size. The Tarptent, with stakes and lines, is still light than the HH.

i have never had any problems with mosquito's biting through the bottom of my hammock:cool: neo

[Patrick]

I would say fairly typical. I don't do down either. Most these days would have a silnylon tarp though. There's a good 10 oz at least. Mine weighs ~13oz +1 oz line and stakes. It's about 17 oz. I'd say you did lose about .5 lbs in your switch. Not sure about the groundcloth, how big was it? That seems heavy. I'm going to weigh mine when I get home.

I'm just playing devil's advocate anyway. There's no way I can sleep on a RR. I use a Prolite 4 Reg and a thermarest chair for comfort. I like being able to plop down throughout camp.Haha, my tarp was silnylon. Eight stakes weighed 4 ounces (I like the tri-bladed stakes for fairly rocky ground), cord and stuff sack were 3 ounces. So, 19 oz for the tarp. Hard to say what size the tarp was exactly because it was shaped (tapered at the foot), but it was definitely on the big side. The ground cloth was probably 8' X 4'.


Swap my 3/4 Z Lite for the Prolite, and we're at 61oz.,(3lbs,. 13oz.) and still good for 3 seasons. Swap the Ultralite for a Highlite (35 degrees), and we're down to 51oz., (3lbs, 3oz.) full package.

So, folks, we have to include comfort as a consideration, because otherwise I am not seeing the hammocks coming out on top (on bottom?) weight-wise. People obviously love them, so the weight/comfort ratio is apparently why. It works for them... fine with me.
Beachwalker, just to be contentious:

Hennessy "race" hammock: 15 oz.
Jacks R Better No Sniveller Quilt: 20 oz.
Jacks R Better Nest Quilt (for underneath): 20 oz.

Total weight: 55 oz (3 lbs, 7 oz)

That will take you down to 35 degrees also.

I agree with you, though. Comfort is a huge, huge factor. I saved weight on my hammock system, but I would have been thrilled to have stayed the same and now, after using the hammock, I'd keep it if it weighed more than my old tarp set-up.

[Alligator]

Haha, my tarp was silnylon. Eight stakes weighed 4 ounces (I like the tri-bladed stakes for fairly rocky ground), cord and stuff sack were 3 ounces. So, 19 oz for the tarp. Hard to say what size the tarp was exactly because it was shaped (tapered at the foot), but it was definitely on the big side. The ground cloth was probably 8' X 4'.
...Whoops my bad. Actually, my cords and stakes weighed a similar amount until fairly recently. I was real surprised at how much all the cord I had with my tarp weighed. And titanium stakes seem to have become relatively inexpensive in the past year or so.

[Rainman]

i have never had any problems with mosquito's biting through the bottom of my hammock:cool: neo
I wish I could say the same. I am going to try the Permathrin that TripClark suggested. Hopefully that will help.

[Patrick]

Whoops my bad. Actually, my cords and stakes weighed a similar amount until fairly recently. I was real surprised at how much all the cord I had with my tarp weighed. And titanium stakes seem to have become relatively inexpensive in the past year or so.Haven't tried ti stakes yet. I only carry two stakes now, so the weight savings of carrying the shepherd's hook ti ones (only shape I've seen in ti) don't seem worth it to me. I like the tri-blade ones a whole lot (don't know what they're really called). I can bang the hell out of them with rocks or whatever and nothing hurts them. If I come across some ti stakes cheap, I'll give them a whirl, though.

How did you save weight on the cord? I used Sgt. Rock's idea of pulling the core out of my 550 cord to save some weight on my bear bag rope. Saved a good percentage of the weight, but, my God, was it a pain to do. I'd probably burn fewer calories carrying that inner core 2,200 miles than I did pulling it out.

[Alligator]

How did you save weight on the cord? I used Sgt. Rock's idea of pulling the core out of my 550 cord to save some weight on my bear bag rope. Saved a good percentage of the weight, but, my God, was it a pain to do. I'd probably burn fewer calories carrying that inner core 2,200 miles than I did pulling it out.I had about 40' of what I think was either 4 or 3 mil cord. I cut it into a long piece for running ridgelines and then a couple of smaller pieces. On the scale of mountaineering type ropes, the small 3-4 mil are the thinnest that one sees in the gear shops. I also threw in a couple of plastic, braided ropes from an old car camping tarp. They had been used to hold the poles up. Anyway, while all these lines looked thin they weighed like 4-5 oz. So I bought a 50' length of kelty Triptease, it weighs an ounce. The Spectra Aircore is even lighter, but it won't hold some knots. I was actually using one knot that it was said the Aircore won't hold, so I bought the triptease. Plus I like that you can see at night, it helps to find the tarp late at night. I'm not sure how these compare to Sgt. Rock's idea.

www.prolitegear.com (http://www.prolitegear.com) has a lot of little light items for sale. They have the cord there. I bought some small dropper bottles ~1/3 oz from them too. I replaced both my Purell and camp soap bottles and saved 3 oz.

[Patrick]

I'll check that out, thanks. I have Triptease, too, but haven't wound up using it. I actually like to be as invisible as possible, especially at night. Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread. Back to arguing about hammock vs. tarp weights.

[Footslogger]

I completely switched over my guy lines (tent and hammock) to the AirCore Pro Dyneema Guyline. Much lighter than nylon cord of the same length and every bit as strong.

Unlike in a previous post, I have had no issues with knots (I use primarily the taughtline and bowline hitches) and and what I really like is that this line does not get tangled. They make a slightly heavier version of the same line for suspending food bags and I've gone that route as well. Never gets caught on branches and is easy to see.

'Slogger

[Alligator]

Taughtline hitch, that's the one I wanted. I'm terrible with knots:o . The folks at prolite.gear said the Spectra cord wouldn't hold it, so I went with the triptease. I might pick up a length of the Dyneema for my winter tent though. That's were I moved some of my old lines:eek: .

[Patrick]

I think the taughtline hitch is the greatest knot ever. Footslogger, where'd you get that? I was just reading about what I think is the same thing on a site, but the name escapes me. They talked about usual nylon cord "sawing" branches when used as bear line, which is what really got me thinking about that.

[Footslogger]

Taughtline hitch, that's the one I wanted. I'm terrible with knots:o . The folks at prolite.gear said the Spectra cord wouldn't hold it, so I went with the triptease. I might pick up a length of the Dyneema for my winter tent though. That's were I moved some of my old lines:eek: .=============================
That was one of the first knot I used when I got the Dyneema cord. My Six Moon tent has 2 tie-outs and I attached the line to the loops on the tent (using a bowline) and then attached it to tree branches using the taughtline - never moved a millimeter. I even used a "slippery" taughtline so that it would be easier to take down in the morning. The stuff's not cheap but with my membership at Backpackinglight.com I got a break on the price. Not much more than Triptease (which I also have in the gear locker).

'Slogger

[Footslogger]

I think the taughtline hitch is the greatest knot ever. Footslogger, where'd you get that? I was just reading about what I think is the same thing on a site, but the name escapes me. They talked about usual nylon cord "sawing" branches when used as bear line, which is what really got me thinking about that.========================================
Probably more than once source but I bought mine on-line at Backpackinglight.com. If you have a memebership they give you a decent discount.

'Slogger

[Lanthar Mandragoran]

Speaking of guyline material... some of the kite building sites has pure spectra up to 500' breaking strength (i think) for extremely inexpensive... can't find the site at the moment

[Footslogger]

Speaking of guyline material... some of the kite building sites has pure spectra up to 500' breaking strength (i think) for extremely inexpensive... can't find the site at the moment========================================
Might be the same place I got my lightweigth/soft Tyvek

http://www.intothewind.com/

'Slogger

[Lanthar Mandragoran]

actually, into the wind (one of the places I may be buying stuff from - they carry 1422R (http://www.materialconcepts.com/cgi-bin/dbsql/db.cgi?db=Products&do=search_results&detail=yes&ProductNumber=00002&ProductNumber-opt==) the lightest "soft" tyvek there is... well other than type 16 (http://www.materialconcepts.com/cgi-bin/dbsql/db.cgi?db=Products&do=search_results&detail=yes&ProductNumber=00002&ProductNumber-opt==) which is microperf'd which is probably not a good idea...) only carries spectra as bridle line (however it's colored or sheathed so it's 'pretty') and is 175lb test, 60' for only like 8$ (look under kitemaking supplies) other than that they only carry braided dacron.


however, I"ll probably be buying a spool of their bridle line when I get some soft tyvek from them...

it's kitebuilder.com that used to carry pure spectra but is now out of it...

[Lanthar Mandragoran]

I want to get a hold of some reflektra (http://www.materialconcepts.com/cgi-bin/dbsql/db.cgi?db=Products&do=search_results&detail=yes&ProductNumber=00002&ProductNumber-opt==) for a car-camping / base-camp sun tarp...

[titanium_hiker]

woah- parameters need to be defined- what scale of comfort? the lightest shelter is none at all- just crash on the ground- of course you'd be cold wet and bugbitten, but you'd truly be an SSXXUL. :) obviously we don't need 5star penthouse comfort either.

what about gear? does a pad get included? line? stakes? warmth? what is the temp we are aiming for?

how low can you go (for either system?)
titanium

[titanium_hiker]

my idea of miniumum comfort-
warm enough to sleep.
away from the bugs enough to sleep.
no soreness (so tenters need pads...)
able to sleep. (thats the bottom line really)

the hammock- light underquilt for warmth- ditch icky pad (you also need a top quilt- this counts as a sleeping bag)
bug netting- tarpers need to include bug net used.

titanium

[MedicineMan]

this year alone now up to 37 nights in a Lite Racer..i'm 6'1" and 189 pounds.
I'm betting on getting another 37 nights out of it too since it shows no sign of any wear or tear....

[Burn]

maybe the idea of 3-4 season system is lost too in this discussion. i saw no one dare to winter in the HH where many tarped and lite weight tented. i hammocked from day 1 (march 1st) in my clark jungle hammock, which is not lite at all...3.5#s. versitility is the true plus of any hammock.

wintering in the clark requires no underquilt, overquilt, bug net is included in the package and actually adds a degree or 2 on the heat factor in winter.

the lowest temp i went thru was around 17* and slept like a baby.

[peter_pan]

maybe the idea of 3-4 season system is lost too in this discussion. i saw no one dare to winter in the HH where many tarped and lite weight tented. i hammocked from day 1 (march 1st) in my clark jungle hammock, which is not lite at all...3.5#s. versitility is the true plus of any hammock.

wintering in the clark requires no underquilt, overquilt, bug net is included in the package and actually adds a degree or 2 on the heat factor in winter.

the lowest temp i went thru was around 17* and slept like a baby.


Burn,

There are many here who hammock all year... there are numberous threads of 3-4 season set ups and experiences, generally into the 20s, but some below.

Like MM, I too use the HH Extreme light racer with good results ( 5-11 and 180 lbs)... I have at least 40 nights in it and no sign of wear.

Again, Three season wgt , Hammock, tarp, lines , pegs, and sleep system , under quilt , and top quilt is under 65 oz or 4 lbs... four season add another quilt 24 oz for a total loft system of 7+ inches at 85 oz or 5.25 lbs... substituting a HH BUL would still keep the Shelter and sleep system to approx 6 lbs total for a winter hammock rig.

Your post is deceptive... You say you wintered 17 degrees in a clark...nothing else... I doubt it... bet there was a pad, sleeping bag, probably long underwear, socks and possibly a skull cap.

The pockets of a Clark will enable you to store gear and create a second bottom with dead air, but that alone will not normally get a person to 17 degrees...

To one level or another, all commercially available hammocks, at this time require some form of bottom insulation at 60 degrees and below for most people... the amount varies by actual temp and personal choice of system...windshield reflectors, HH SS, pads, Dams, pads/dams organized in SPE, Pea Pods, or under quilts.

Pan

[cr113]

Here's what I'm thinking. Divide the systems (hammock and tarp/tent) into 2 categories, shelter and insulation.

Hammock shelter (hammock and tarp) = about 2 lbs.

Tarp shelter (Tarp and ground sheet) = about 2 lbs.

So the shelter part on both systems are roughly equal.

Now all that's left is insulation. For the hammock this could be an underquilt and a top blanket. For the tarp it would be a pad and bag. Assuming both systems have a combined insulation weight of 4 lbs wouldn't the pad-bag be slightly warmer since there wouldn't be as much convection?

How low can 4lbs of pad-bag take you? Maybe 15 degrees? What about 4lbs of hammock insulation? What about a 2lb underquilt with a 2lb top blanket? I'm guessing about 20-25. There's probably not that big a difference but I'm thinking the tarp is will take you to a lower temp for a given weight.

[Just Jeff]

I'm thinking the tarp is will take you to a lower temp for a given weight.

That's probably fair. But if there's no level snow, you'll still have to deal with unlevel ground, roots and rocks, runoff, etc. So it's a comfort thing.

That said, Carol Crooker still did a sub-5 base weight with a hammock, even in chilly temps. So it's possible to comfortably carry a workable hammock solution, meaning you can be comfortable in camp and while hiking.

For me, the extra 8 oz or less is worth the better night's sleep I get.

Edit - 40 oz of quilt/underquilt takes me to 35+ comfortably. With the quilt, underquilt, and full-length CCF pad I was comfortable to about 20 F...that's just over 3 lbs. So I'm guessing 64 oz will get me a lot lower than 20 F.

[Burn]

pan, you would be correct...i always store my food bag, shoes, spare wet clothes inside the undersacks of my clark. in winter i carry a zrest for insulation...i don't worry about the going lite...well within reason. i think i had 35# coming outta amicalola. i also use a 15* bag in winter cause i am skerred what can happen in the smokies. 60* tho i would swelter in a slumberjack under me. can't remember when i changed bags or dropped the zrest...it was getting old toting that sucker around when i was fine without it.

i also didn't realize folks were HHing in winter...i never saw any, and everyone who had one for summer was tenting in winter, my novice status resumes...hehehe.

i guess the only reason i posted was to say weight is not really the reason most hammock...comfort and versitility is more realistic. next time you hammockers get to laurel falls just south of pond flats, there are 2 trees right before the bending ledge around the clift....great hanging spot.

[SteveJ]

clip

i also didn't realize folks were HHing in winter...i never saw any, and everyone who had one for summer was tenting in winter, my novice status resumes...hehehe.
clip


Hi, Burn. I guess I'm really the novice around here! But, I have found it possible to hang my HH, even in the winter. Was on top of Shining Rock Mtn last weekend, with temps into the low 20's....

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=9221&catid=newimages&cutoffdate=7

I figure I may be carrying about a pound more at these temps than if I were tarp camping... yeah, that's 16 ozs, but it's 16 ozs I'm willing to carry for a good night's sleep! I've gone into the teens several times on shining rock...and don't usually get temps lower than that here in GA. I don't have the setup to go lower than that - usually drop to the ground if I'm expecting temps into the single digits or lower.....

Steve

[Burn]

nice windbreak there steve...i would guess that is something i could do instead of staying off of ridgelines in colder weather. i guess i missed quite a few sunrises cause the prevailing winds on top.

one thing along thread lines, most hammocks, maybe all of them also have the tarp setup built in, like steve, you can always drop to the ground using the tarp...again a + for versitility in hammocking over tarping. i personally set up once almost on the ground in a rain storm, cause i was beat and once i set down i basically was on the ground....didn't matter, i was wet thru and cold, so i stayed in my bag and slept, again, like a baby.

[peter_pan]

nice windbreak there steve...i would guess that is something i could do instead of staying off of ridgelines in colder weather. i guess i missed quite a few sunrises cause the prevailing winds on top.

Burn, Steve, et al.

Nice site/set up, Steve.

You can save the weight of the extra tarp and still camp on ridge lines. Simple move 5-6 feet over the actual top to the lee side. ( 95 % of the time this will be the east side on the AT) . Any wind will go over you and you still get the sunrize view. You may have to stand or walk a few feet for the sunset view. Frequently the slope will allow you to peg the up hill side of the tarp to the ground, with the hammock at normal height, when using this technique, for even more protection.

Pan

[SteveJ]

nice windbreak there steve...i would guess that is something i could do instead of staying off of ridgelines in colder weather. i guess i missed quite a few sunrises cause the prevailing winds on top.

quote=peter_pan]Burn, Steve, et al.

Nice site/set up, Steve.

You can save the weight of the extra tarp and still camp on ridge lines....

Pan

yeah, it is a nice site, isn't it! :D I threw the tarp in the pack at the last minute - the last time I camped on Shining Rock we had 30+ mph winds all night. I set the hammock up off the ridge then, but also had trouble keeping my little brasslite stove lit, even with a windscreen and off the ridge. I put the 5x8 tarp in figuring that for about 8 ozs, it would help if the wind was strong.

There was virtually no wind when we set up camp - since I had the tarp I decided to go ahead and put it up and set the hammock up near the groundsleepers I was with.... It did work out pretty well, tho, as the wind did kick up a little that night..... Planning on replacing the stock HH tarp w/ an 8x8 when necessary - just haven't done it yet.....

Thanks for the advice!

Steve

[swede]

I appreciate the tips I find in the posts. One, to use a windshield reflector is a real conversation starter. Recently, on a 3 nighter, I used just the reflector and my Rokk bag in my HH. I safety pinned the reflector to the back of my bag so it would not slip out of place. The temps ranged down to about 38 with a 10 mph breeze. The only problem is I am the camp cook, so I have to get up first from my nest. I need a new krewe.