MinnesotaSmith Update [Archive] - Page 16 - WhiteBlaze

emerald

10-28-2006, 16:14

MS wants to siphon off valuable trail maintenance assets and money to build useless shelters and improve them to make them more up to his standards. Doesn't that seem sort of counterproductive to preserving THE TRAIL...

What use are fancy hiker amenities without a trail to link them?:-? I'd pick putting money and manpower into stabilizing the treadway over hiker amenites almost invariably and I tend to like them off the trail proper and private too.:eek: I'd maybe even pick adding to the greenway over upgrading the treadway if an opportunity to make an important acquisition presented itself.

There are times, however, when a shelter should be built for resource-protection purposes although there are also times when removing or moving one may have the same effect. Shelters can be a valuable and useful tool to direct or encourage where people overnight. Big or excessively attractive shelters can be just that, attractive, to those who might not otherwise visit.

Maybe I shouldn't have said some of those things I just did, but it's what I think and I believe there are many thinkers who have come to the same conclusions.

Furthermore, at the risk of irritating those who think the objective of a thru-hike should be to maximize the amount of time spent on the A.T., I will point out that not everyone thinks that more shelters are required or that it should be the objective of trail clubs to cater to such individuals.

SGT Rock

10-28-2006, 16:41

your right . its a complex thing the trails needs.in my years i have never seen a trail with as much together and with such suport systems as to reach to congress.and with such a safe secure path to allow novice hiking witch is most important.when ms says a shelter should be lifted closer to the trail im sure he knows its impossible and that were still in the fighting for the trails rights stage after haveing just finnished fighting for the trails life stage.and the thing he may not understand is that the tidying things up stage is a dream and need not ever come to maintain Benton's dream.

Damn MW, that is as close to a coherent post as I think you have made in a long time (just messing with you, I love your posts man).

But I personally feel all shelter should be out of sight of the trail, and I suspect others feel the same way (except, of course old MS) because then you can choose to ignore them if they ain't for you. Seeing a bunch of people lounging around a shelter because they decided to spend all day at one instead of walking is not my idea of getting away from people when I hike. Hearing them cutting up, belching, farting, and complaining about mice, dogs, cell phones, and other people in the shelter isn't my idea of a good time. Don't get me wrong, you can go there if you want. Your business.

A shelter should sort of be like going to church IMO, just follow me on this (I may sound like I am rambling like old MW)...

Getting up for Church on Sunday is a PITA, but you choose to go it and it will require some effort, complaining about the hour you have to get up is just sniveling. If you want to expend the effort to shelters - then you agree to spend the EXTRA effort to walk an extra 0.1 - 0.5 miles or so. The extra effort to get to them is the small price you have to pay for the PRIVILEGE to go use the darn things, just like getting up early for Church on Sunday. Complaining about getting up for Church when you go to do it - well you chose to do it and that is the same as the extra little walk for a three sided mouse motel. Complaining about having to walk to a shelter? Well just quit sniveling and walk, or camp by the trail and use your tent. You make the choice, you live with the cost or you don't.

Read my sig if you don't understand where I am coming from :cool:

Topcat

10-28-2006, 17:02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lBkuz1TlVc

a little poetry for MS

minnesotasmith

10-28-2006, 17:16

minnisota smith live! my favorite show!by my estimates, he was just told dinner is ready. ah dinner.

The power went out here. My friends had some power lines and poles dropped by the storm that only just got cleared. Can you say "involuntary zero day"? :rolleyes: ;) :D

ed bell

10-28-2006, 17:21

The power went out here. My friends had some power lines and poles dropped by the storm that only just got cleared. Can you say "involuntary zero day"? :rolleyes: ;) :DPower was out on the AT? I'll bet those shelters were dark.:D

MOWGLI

10-28-2006, 17:22

Can you say "involuntary zero day"? :rolleyes: ;) :D

If you were staying in the woods, that wouldn't be an issue. Would it? Sounds like sick & tired of being cold. I would be after 9 months.

MS, how many other hikers do you see in the woods these days? Do you encounter mostly day hikers? The occasional section hiker?

Lone Wolf

10-28-2006, 17:22

You don't need no lectricity to hike.:cool: I guess you do need it to bake cookies and such.:)

TheTank

10-28-2006, 17:23

I am going to have to disagree with everyone that is complaining about the trail. I think the trail is almost perfect the way it is. The trail itself is well enough maintained that it is passable, but there are sections which are challenging, which I think it good. There is no reason we need staircases going up every mountain, in fact that would take away from the point of the trail. On the other hand in some places they are needed to prevent erosion, and they are there to do just that.
As for shelters, there seem to be enough that you can easily use them all the time if you want, but spaced out enough that they do not disrupt the natural feel of the trail. And there are some that are close to the trail, which I find a pleasant sight at the end of a long day, and there are others further off the trail to be less intrusive, but yes, slightly more work. I think the trail needs this balance, and has achieved it well, I see no reason to build more shelters, nor any reason to get rid of or move the ones there.
Also I am going to have to disagree with Minnisota Smith, I don't think there is any possibility that there will be no more thru-hikers in 20 years, what I fear is that there may be may times more, making the trail very crowded.
But this is just my opinion.

minnesotasmith

10-28-2006, 17:24

I'm curious. Have you been spending time on the AT over enough years to back your claim? I've been a backpacker for 25 years. The AT is an interstate compared to many trails I've hiked on. I think your expectations are way too high.

I can see wooden constructs falling apart all over the AT from what I know from dealing with wood all my life is years of being out in the weather. I have seen innumerable water bars in multiple states in various stages of erosion into nonexistence (that I know from professional background commonly took years to reach). I don't have to have been on the AT multiple times IMO to defensively reach this conclusion, simply applying powers of observation to the >85% of the Trail I have seen first-hand this year.

Oh, and the (almost certainly correct) observation you made that many other trails s*ck worse than the AT does nothing to disprove my position that the condition of the AT is overall in decline. One further point of evidence: in over 8 months on the AT, in what has to be covering the entire prime maintenance season, I have seen less than 7 times any trail construction/ maintenance work actually underway. Can you say "effectively abandoned trail"? When there is multiyear uncut foliage crossing the Trail, that's trail that's reverting fast.

minnesotasmith

10-28-2006, 17:25

noodlely doodldly to ya ms. your superceeding the simpsons in my little world. im glad your so close to done. are you sayin your commin to the pa ruck?

When is it again?

minnesotasmith

10-28-2006, 17:27

obviously he drank more and crashed. thruhikers cant drink while thruhiking. i still wanna know what they fed him. he said they were making a big meal. food and me go way back.

A seafood alfredo, spiced baked chicken, fresh buttered bread, a decent red wine, a salad with at least 5 different greens.

minnesotasmith

10-28-2006, 17:29

It's good to hear that MS is making progress and has an end date objective. Are there any other southbounders in the area?

I saw Seed, Doc, Rainbow Brite and Mountain Dew 2 days ago.

minnesotasmith

10-28-2006, 17:32

Certain portions are nearly maintenance-free at present.:-? ;) :)

My point exactly. Some popular sections (e.g., the northern Shenandoah) are relatively complete and well-maintained, but I can tell you from first-hand experience this year, that they are the exception.

Heater

10-28-2006, 17:33

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lBkuz1TlVc

a little poetry for MS

That was good. :dance

minnesotasmith

10-28-2006, 17:35

If you were staying in the woods, that wouldn't be an issue. Would it? Sounds like sick & tired of being cold. I would be after 9 months.

MS, how many other hikers do you see in the woods these days? Do you encounter mostly day hikers? The occasional section hiker?

I can go all day and not see a single other hiker now, especially when over a mile from a paved road crossing. About 0.7 thrus (usually NOBO flipfloppers) and a couple of packless dayhikers in jeans and Keds are the norm nearer towns.

ed bell

10-28-2006, 17:38

Oh, and the (almost certainly correct) observation you made that many other trails s*ck worse than the AT does nothing to disprove my position that the condition of the AT is overall in decline. One further point of evidence: in over 8 months on the AT, in what has to be covering the entire prime maintenance season, I have seen less than 7 times any trail construction/ maintenance work actually underway. Can you say "effectively abandoned trail"? When there is multiyear uncut foliage crossing the Trail, that's trail that's reverting fast.The observation I made was that the AT is an interstate compared to other trails. The other trails are just used less often. Usually the only time I would use the word "suck" would be Horse crap covered or deeply rutted. If the AT is in your estimation "effectivly abandonded", I would say there is no way anybody could hike it for 2000+ miles. I'll say it again, your expectations are too high. Its a wilderness trail not a sidewalk.

MOWGLI

10-28-2006, 17:39

I can see wooden constructs falling apart all over the AT from what I know from dealing with wood all my life is years of being out in the weather.
Since I hiked in 2000, lots of trail infrastructure has been replaced. New shelters, bridges, etc. So I would disagree with that assertion.

I have seen innumerable water bars in multiple states in various stages of erosion into nonexistence (that I know from professional background commonly took years to reach).

Eventually I'm hoping the maintainers will start replacing the water bars with grade dips - wherever possible. Every waterbar installed creates a maintenance issue.

I don't have to have been on the AT multiple times IMO to defensively reach this conclusion, simply applying powers of observation to the >85% of the Trail I have seen first-hand this year.
Actually, if you want to talk about how trail maintenance is trending over time, you do have to spend more than one season on the trail. Your thesis is based on anecdotal evidence. If you are a scientist, you should know that.

One further point of evidence: in over 8 months on the AT, in what has to be covering the entire prime maintenance season, I have seen less than 7 times any trail construction/ maintenance work actually underway. Can you say "effectively abandoned trail"? When there is multiyear uncut foliage crossing the Trail, that's trail that's reverting fast.

How many trees have you seen fall in the forest during your hike? Do you think they aren't falling because you didn't see/hear it happen?

Fact is, more than 180,000 hours of volunteer labor is spent every year on the AT. Because you didn't see it happening - doesn't mean it ain't.

Are you planning to lend a hand with maintaining the trail after you finish your hike? I hope you do. Volunteering along the AT (and any trail for that matter) is an extraordinarily rewarding proposition.

Good luck on the rest of your hike.

minnesotasmith

10-28-2006, 17:39

Damn MW, that is as close to a coherent post as I think you have made in a long time (just messing with you, I love your posts man).

But I personally feel all shelter should be out of sight of the trail, and I suspect others feel the same way (except, of course old MS) because then you can choose to ignore them if they ain't for you. Seeing a bunch of people lounging around a shelter because they decided to spend all day at one instead of walking is not my idea of getting away from people when I hike. Hearing them cutting up, belching, farting, and complaining about mice, dogs, cell phones, and other people in the shelter isn't my idea of a good time. Don't get me wrong, you can go there if you want. Your business.

A shelter should sort of be like going to church IMO, just follow me on this (I may sound like I am rambling like old MW)...

Getting up for Church on Sunday is a PITA, but you choose to go it and it will require some effort, complaining about the hour you have to get up is just sniveling. If you want to expend the effort to shelters - then you agree to spend the EXTRA effort to walk an extra 0.1 - 0.5 miles or so. The extra effort to get to them is the small price you have to pay for the PRIVILEGE to go use the darn things, just like getting up early for Church on Sunday. Complaining about getting up for Church when you go to do it - well you chose to do it and that is the same as the extra little walk for a three sided mouse motel. Complaining about having to walk to a shelter? Well just quit sniveling and walk, or camp by the trail and use your tent. You make the choice, you live with the cost or you don't.

Read my sig if you don't understand where I am coming from :cool:

================================================== =

I don't personally see a use for there to be any, anywhere near the Trail, but I simply don't go to them. I don't advocate them being banned. Nonshelter-using hikers should IMO extend the same courtesy.

BTW, I would say that the AT shelters are in better shape than the Trail. Yes, picnic tables, bear boxes, skylights, etc., would be desirable (for the more backwards Trail states like NH and ME to add), but I don't take the position that they are essential. A walkable, navigable trail (by nonexperts) is essential, however.

SGT Rock

10-28-2006, 17:45

A walkable, navigable trail (by nonexperts) is essential, however.

Apparently it already is.:-? Think about it...

How much of an expert are you or many of the people that made it all the way? :rolleyes:

And why is it essential? It apparently isn't essential on many, many other trails.

Maybe, as has been mentioned by others, you expect too much.

ed bell

10-28-2006, 17:45

I can see wooden constructs falling apart all over the AT from what I know from dealing with wood all my life is years of being out in the weather. Yeah wood gets old and weathered. No suprise there. Shelters get old and run down. Some get replaced every year. Sometimes they leave the old one up. Seeing that, old waterbars and thick sections of undergrowth in places has always been the case since I set foot on the trail back in the 80's. That doesn't mean the trail is disappearing.:sun

minnesotasmith

10-28-2006, 17:46

Because you didn't see it happening - doesn't mean it ain't.

If trail maintenance isn't done during daylight hours between mid-February and late October, it must be done outside those times to be getting done. Do you say that the huge amounts of (essential if the Trail is not to fall apart) trail maintenance I'm not seeing done is in fact done late at night, or between late October and mid-February? Given your position, those are the only two possibilities. Given the snow I'm already seeing, the latter seems unlikely on most of the Trail. Given the loudness of power tools such as chainsaws, done late at night (when the sound would be audible for great distance) seems unlikely. So, IMO the only defensible conclusion to reach is that TM is a relatively rare occurence over most of the AT relative to observable needs to merely maintain stasis.

ed bell

10-28-2006, 17:50

I can see wooden constructs falling apart all over the AT from what I know from dealing with wood all my life is years of being out in the weather. Yeah wood gets old and weathered. No suprise there. Shelters get old and run down. Some get replaced occasionally. Sometimes they leave the old one up. Seeing that, old waterbars and thick sections of undergrowth in places has always been the case since I set foot on the trail back in the 80's. That doesn't mean the trail is disappearing.:sun

ed bell

10-28-2006, 17:51

oops resent post. sorry:o

minnesotasmith

10-28-2006, 17:57

Yeah wood gets old and weathered. No suprise there. Shelters get old and run down. Some get replaced occasionally. Sometimes they leave the old one up. Seeing that, old waterbars and thick sections of undergrowth in places has always been the case since I set foot on the trail back in the 80's. That doesn't mean the trail is disappearing.:sun

I had a trail maintainer supervisor in NC tell me that they were not going to add any more shelters at all, ever again, in their section of the Trail.

ed bell

10-28-2006, 17:58

SGT Rock

10-28-2006, 17:59

If trail maintenance isn't done during daylight hours between mid-February and late October, it must be done outside those times to be getting done. Do you say that the huge amounts of (essential if the Trail is not to fall apart) trail maintenance I'm not seeing done is in fact done late at night, or between late October and mid-February? Given your position, those are the only two possibilities. Given the snow I'm already seeing, the latter seems unlikely on most of the Trail. Given the loudness of power tools such as chainsaws, done late at night (when the sound would be audible for great distance) seems unlikely. So, IMO the only defensible conclusion to reach is that TM is a relatively rare occurence over most of the AT relative to observable needs to merely maintain stasis.

Work with me here...

If you are only on any one given section for a few minutes at a time in a year, how do you know the maintenance isn't done in daylight. How do you know it wasn't done after you passed or before you got there that year and grew back? I have only been on my section once this year while on leave. I did enough maintenance in one day to maintain the area. Last year I did about a half dozen trips and had to do some trail digging and building of support structures to keep it in place. I bet if you went there now you could reach the opinion that nothing has been done for years - and keeping the place looking natural is a part of the battle. One of the things that I hated the most was taking a weed wacker to a section of trail that in my opinion looked great without all that. But I was helping on someone else's section and the BMTA wanted it wide and clear for the press on opening day. The fact that any part of the trail failed to meet your personal standards of what you decided it ought to before you got there somehow is not surprising considering what you apparently seem to feel it ought to look like without having ever had any experience with that sort of thing before.

And, since you haven't done much trail maintenance apparently, just how long does it take for a place to get grown over? How do you quantify years of growth? I ain't saying it cannot happen, but there is one place where I routinely have to go in with a machete in the late summer and clean out the briers and other scrub bushes. This year someone else did it for me thank goodness.

Water-bars and things like that do deteriorate. They may look bad but still be passable. To get a crew in to do the work may only happen ever few years, and then on the parts that need it. BUT apparently it is still traversable - you and a few thousand other people made it...

But then again, it is a trail, not a park. If one expects new structures and zero deterioration in all structures, then that person may be into the wrong recreational activity.

But you are right. Too much effort on shelters.

Think about it.

ed bell

10-28-2006, 17:59

I had a trail maintainer supervisor in NC tell me that they were not going to add any more shelters at all, ever again, in their section of the Trail.I didn't say add. I said replace.

MOWGLI

10-28-2006, 18:07

If trail maintenance isn't done during daylight hours between mid-February and late October, it must be done outside those times to be getting done. Do you say that the huge amounts of (essential if the Trail is not to fall apart) trail maintenance I'm not seeing done is in fact done late at night, or between late October and mid-February? Given your position, those are the only two possibilities. Given the snow I'm already seeing, the latter seems unlikely on most of the Trail. Given the loudness of power tools such as chainsaws, done late at night (when the sound would be audible for great distance) seems unlikely. So, IMO the only defensible conclusion to reach is that TM is a relatively rare occurence over most of the AT relative to observable needs to merely maintain stasis.

Think about this for a minute MS. You find yourself at a given point along a 2174 mile trail each day. Trail maintainers come out and work on their sections of trail 2-3 or more times a year. They are VOLUNTEERS. Considering that there are very few paid folks maintaining the trail, it's a wonder that anyone can hike it at all. But I digress...

Well over 1000 folks have completed thru hikes since I did so in August 2000. Hundreds have walked from Georgia to Maine this year alone. Why don't we hear similar reports from those hikers?

Are there places where the trail is eroding at an unsustainable rate? Yes, absolutely. Are there places where the trail needs a relo, but the human resources don't currently exist to plan, design, and implement the project. Yup.

What's the solution? The answer is simple. You & me. If you're not part of the soultion, you're part of the problem. In other words, to walk the trail and cause erosion, but do nothing other than complain about the shape of the trail.... rings a little hollow to folks like me. Again, I hope you'll spend some time volunteering when your hike is done. I'd be willing to bet DWM would let you tag along on a work trip. If you want to ride up to Chattanooga, I'll feed you a meal and take you out for some maintenance or tral construction up here on the Cumberland Trail. You might actually enjoy it.

Sly

10-28-2006, 18:08

LOL... I see MS is winning the hearts and mind of AT enthusiasts! 180,000 hours, get it?

Here's how MS is going to give back... hang out at some trail head giving out burgers and soda to the class of 2007 and then tell them how much it sucks!. Rocks suck, roots suck, mud sucks, climbs suck, water sources suck, shelters suck, water bars suck, the AMC sucks, trail maintainers suck...

Yeah know what? It's MS that sucks!

TheTank

10-28-2006, 18:08

Actually, looking purely at numbers here, there has been a lot of trail work done this year. Minnesota, you said you have seen trail crews about 7 days during your hike, and you have been hiking about 9 months, or 270 days, so each day on average you cover 1/270 of the trail. Therefore for each day you see trail crews working on that days 1/270 of the trail, you are missing about 269 other trail crews working on other sections. Therefore there have been about 1890 days of work times the number of people in each crew, is a lot of time.

SGT Rock

10-28-2006, 18:11

What's the solution? The answer is simple. You & me. If you're not part of the soultion, you're part of the problem. In other words, to walk the trail and cause erosion, but do nothing other than complain about the shape of the trail.... rings a little hollow to folks like me. Again, I hope you'll spend some time volunteering when your hike is done. I'd be willing to bet DWM would let you tag along on a work trip. If you want to ride up to Chattanooga, I'll feed you a meal and take you out for some maintenance or tral construction up here on the Cumberland Trail. You might actually enjoy it.

Excellent idea! I hear-by also extend an invitation to MS to come on over to Maryville, TN in 2007. We can work a couple of days on the BMT, then hop over to the AT in the same are and do some work together. I figure a week ought to be enough. You can stay at my place and we can use my tools. I figure you can haul the tool kit after carrying packzilla for the last 9 months!

ed bell

10-28-2006, 18:13

The Old Fhart

10-28-2006, 18:17

Minnesota Smith-"I can see wooden constructs falling apart all over the AT from what I know from dealing with wood all my life is years of being out in the weather. I have seen innumerable water bars in multiple states in various stages of erosion into nonexistence (that I know from professional background commonly took years to reach). I don't have to have been on the AT multiple times IMO to defensively reach this conclusion, simply applying powers of observation to the >85% of the Trail I have seen first-hand this year."Absolutely pure unadulterated BS! I've personally met many work groups on the A.T. as has anyone who has hiked the A.T.. There have been many new shelters, privies, bridges, puncheons, (and hostels) built up and down the A.T. and only a totally ignorant person would make a ridiculous claim like MS has done. Trail maintenance, including blazing, has improved greatly over the years I’ve been on the trail. Your credibility just went from zero into the negative. You are completely unbelievable! What an insult to the countless trail volunteers who helped make your worthless hike possible.

SGT Rock

10-28-2006, 18:18

Mountain Man

10-28-2006, 18:19

I can see wooden constructs falling apart all over the AT from what I know from dealing with wood all my life is years of being out in the weather. I have seen innumerable water bars in multiple states in various stages of erosion into nonexistence (that I know from professional background commonly took years to reach). I don't have to have been on the AT multiple times IMO to defensively reach this conclusion, simply applying powers of observation to the >85% of the Trail I have seen first-hand this year.

Oh, and the (almost certainly correct) observation you made that many other trails s*ck worse than the AT does nothing to disprove my position that the condition of the AT is overall in decline. One further point of evidence: in over 8 months on the AT, in what has to be covering the entire prime maintenance season, I have seen less than 7 times any trail construction/ maintenance work actually underway. Can you say "effectively abandoned trail"? When there is multiyear uncut foliage crossing the Trail, that's trail that's reverting fast.

The best thing to do if you find a section that is over grown with weeds or blowdowns or waterbars need cleaning out is to take note of the location and e-mail the trail supervisor of the club that maintains that area. Believe me it will be greatly appreciated. I'm guessing other clubs operate about the same as here in Georgia as the trail is broke up in around 1 mile sections and maintainers are given a section to keep up and are asked to go out at least 4 times a year to cut weeds clean waterbars lop back limbs from the trail and cut blowdowns pick up trash among other things. So if one person didn't get out to cut weeds on their section the trail supervisor might not be aware of it. Lot of different reasons why they might not have got out to their section to work which they should let the supervisor know. We've had one maintainer this year put in over 90 days doing trail work and another with over 70 days. Not hours but days. (both fomer thru hikers I might add) Not counting the hundreds of others here. I've put in around 9 myself which is small compared to the others. The ATC sends the Konnarock crew down for 2 weeks, college kids come and spend a couple of weeks working every year and we have a organized work trip ounce a month to work on Major projects. It's a big job but fun and would love to have you join in when you finish your hike.

MOWGLI

10-28-2006, 18:21

Excellent idea! I hear-by also extend an invitation to MS to come on over to Maryville, TN in 2007. We can work a couple of days on the BMT, then hop over to the AT in the same are and do some work together. I figure a week ought to be enough. You can stay at my place and we can use my tools. I figure you can haul the tool kit after carrying packzilla for the last 9 months!

I'd be honored to join that work crew! I could probably arrange with the Nantahala Hiking Club or the Smoky Mountain Hiking Club to do some work on the AT.

By the way, the Smoky Mountain Hiking Club (http://www.smhclub.org/)is sorely in need of volunteers. SGT Rock, if you can think of any way that Whiteblaze could incent folks to become volunteers, that would be great. Maybe at some point there would be enough cash in the kitty to provide a Whiteblaze shirt, patch & rocker panel to acknowledge a volunteer contribution stimulated by a visit to this website. How cool would that be?

Mountain Man

10-28-2006, 18:22

Oh yeah congrats on you hike so far and hope you make it the rest of the way.:sun

SGT Rock

10-28-2006, 18:33

I'd be honored to join that work crew! I could probably arrange with the Nantahala Hiking Club or the Smoky Mountain Hiking Club to do some work on the AT.

By the way, the Smoky Mountain Hiking Club (http://www.smhclub.org/)is sorely in need of volunteers. SGT Rock, if you can think of any way that Whiteblaze could incent folks to become volunteers, that would be great. Maybe at some point there would be enough cash in the kitty to provide a Whiteblaze shirt, patch & rocker panel to acknowledge a volunteer contribution stimulated by a visit to this website. How cool would that be?

I'll make sure I let people know ahead of time when I am going to try and do something next year. I have a couple of blow downs on my BMT section that HOI has done some reduction to, but we need some muscle and a come-along I think to finish it based on what he said.

Sounds like a plan. I would love to set up an annual WhiteBlaze work trip similar to Hardcore, but I don't have a hostel as an incentive for a place to stay and all. The incentive idea is a good one, I'll ponder on it and see what I can do when I get back. I think Hardcore has set the mold, and I would just try and do some sort of copy of their system if I can.

And as to the Smokies - as you know I already work with the BMTA, but when I get back I plan to try again to get with the Smoky Mountain Hiking Club about volunteering. I would love to be able to point to a piece of the AT and say "I do that section!" with pride like I do on the BMT. Anyone that has not tried trail maintenance ought to get into it. It is addicting.

ed bell

10-28-2006, 18:33

I tell you what Ed, when I get back I would love to have a couple of work trips with some WhiteBlazers. HOI already came out and helped me. I got a fold out bed in the den, a grill on the porch, and a place to shower and do laundry about an hour from where the work will be done.Nice idea. I'd love to be a part of that. I live in Greenville SC so it wouldn't be too far of a trip for me. Maybe we can start a thread close to the time of you comming home to drum up some folks. Considering what you are doing now I would be honored to give you a hand when you get home.

Sly

10-28-2006, 18:38

And as to the Smokies - as you know I already work with the BMTA, but when I get back I plan to try again to get with the Smoky Mountain Hiking Club about volunteering. I would love to be able to point to a piece of the AT and say "I do that section!" with pride like I do on the BMT. Anyone that has not tried trail maintenance ought to get into it. It is addicting.

Another idea is to hook up with one of the ATC sponsored Rocky Top Crews...

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.1302945/k.8F04/Rocky_Top_Crew.htm

SGT Rock

10-28-2006, 18:39

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lBkuz1TlVc

a little poetry for MS

On a side note, before I drop of to bed...

I finally got the dang thing to download and watched it. That was excellent.

I reckon MS is Sam McGee?

Topcat

10-28-2006, 18:48

;) Could be.....

Lone Wolf

10-28-2006, 18:53

Topcat

10-28-2006, 18:54

briarpatch

10-28-2006, 19:55

One further point of evidence: in over 8 months on the AT, in what has to be covering the entire prime maintenance season, I have seen less than 7 times any trail construction/ maintenance work actually underway.

In this 8 month period, the GATC has held 8 organized 3rd Saturday group work trips, with up to 50 people attending each trip. We have held multiple midweek group worktrips, as well. And that doesn't count the days spent by individual section maintainers on their part of the AT. We have at least 2 maintainers with over 300 hours of trail work this year, if I remember the report at the business meeting correctly. We have completed one major relocation, and started another. We built one new shelter, and multiple mouldering privies. We hosted several trail maintenance sessions of a week or 2 in length, one with Konnarock and one as an alternative spring break for a college group. Seems like a lot of maintenance is occurring that you didn't see.

What your observation means is that over a ~2100 mile trail on ~240 individual days, you ran into 7 trail maintenance activities. Since I can document many more occurances of trail work in a SINGLE STATE than you have observed, I would suggest that your observation bears no relation to the actual rate of maintenance.

Nothing personal, but I know lots of folks who put tons of physical work into the AT, and for little or no recognition. These VOLUNTEERS do it because they enjoy it.

totally Boagus

10-28-2006, 20:12

anyone care to wager as to what his next complaint will be.......?

emerald

10-28-2006, 20:12

My point exactly. Some popular sections (e.g., the northern Shenandoah) are relatively complete and well-maintained, but I can tell you from first-hand experience this year, that they are the exception.

I'll add my post quoted later. What I was referring to is places like Rainbow Ledges where the treadway itself is rock or other highly durable treadway where there is little or no upkeep required. I think it's great when the A.T. can be put in such places. Durable treadway is a good thing. It frees up maintainers for other tasks.

Log waterbars do rot. That's why well built rock waterbars and rock structures generally are preferred. Some of the waterbars you saw in a state of decay were probably due to be replaced sometime soon.

Note for readers new to hiking: don't step on log waterbars. To do so is to invite a fall, especially when they're wet.

Lone Wolf

10-28-2006, 20:15

anyone care to wager as to what his next complaint will be.......?

His angels burned his ***n cookies?:eek:

emerald

10-28-2006, 20:27

I know lots of folks who put tons of physical work into the AT, and for little or no recognition. These VOLUNTEERS do it because they enjoy it.

That's the right reason to get involved with A.T. maintenance for the joy derived from the work itself. Anything on top of that is icing on the cake.

It can be pleasurable done alone, but can be even better done with someone else who's having a good time too.

I admit to having enjoyed an occasional compliment or even constructive criticism too. Good ideas sometimes come from unexpected sources to those who are listening.:)

Lone Wolf

10-28-2006, 20:36

A while back I was hiking nobo coming off Bluff Mtn., N.C. near Garenflo Gap when I came upon 6 men putting in waterbars and such. Not one of them was younger than 70! No way was I walking past without helping. I dropped my pack and hung with them fellas a bit doing some work. Humbled my ass.

MOWGLI

10-28-2006, 20:56

rickb

10-28-2006, 20:59

in over 8 months on the AT, in what has to be covering the entire prime maintenance season, I have seen less than 7 times any trail construction/ maintenance work actually underway. Can you say "effectively abandoned trail"?

Basically you have 180 samples of 10 mile sections of trail.

If 7 of those 10 mile samples actually had trail work being performed on them, that's just under 4%.

That suggests a whole lot of work is being performed on a 2000 mile long trail on any given day.

bfitz

10-28-2006, 21:00

I've seen quite a few old-timers out there doing heavy physical work, carrying fuel and chainsaws etc. several miles, bustin more a$$ in a day than I do in a week.

ed bell

10-28-2006, 21:21

The Old Fhart

10-28-2006, 21:46

Ed Bell-"Yeah Rick, but he's a scientist;), and I'm sure he won't recant.:eek: :sun" Judging from his continual wine consumption, MS is better at decanting than recanting; although he has proved time and time again he is better at whining than wining.;)

Lone Wolf

10-28-2006, 21:48

ballbuster you.:cool:

Sly

10-28-2006, 21:51

If MS has said anything good about the trail itself, I must have missed it.

ed bell

10-28-2006, 22:04

MOWGLI

10-28-2006, 22:23

Long distance hiker what you standing there for?
Get up, get off, get out of the door
You're playing cold music on the bar room floor,
drowned in your laughter and dead to the core
There's a dragon with matches loose on the town
Take a whole pail of water just to cool him down

Fire - Fire On the Mountain
Fire - Fire on the mountain

Almost aflame still you don't feel the heat
Takes all you got just to stay on the beat
You say it's a living, we all gotta eat
but you're here alone there's no one to compete
If mercy's in business I wish it for you
More than just ashes when your dreams come true

Fire - Fire on the mountain
Fire - Fire on the mountain

Long distance hiker what you holdin out for?
Caught in slow motion in your dash to the door
The flame from your stage has now spread to the floor
You gave all you got, why you wanta give more?
The more that you give, why, the more it will take
to the thin line beyond which you really cannot fake

There's a fire
Fire on the mountain

woodsy

10-28-2006, 22:43

Heater

10-29-2006, 00:07

Ahhhhhhhh.... Good times..... Great oldies.

Welcome back, MS! :D

Heh heh. ;)

Lugnut

10-29-2006, 01:03

I tell you what Ed, when I get back I would love to have a couple of work trips with some WhiteBlazers. HOI already came out and helped me. I got a fold out bed in the den, a grill on the porch, and a place to shower and do laundry about an hour from where the work will be done.

Post it Rock and I'm in, (I've got the summer off) even though you worked circles around me at Hardcore. Thanks for what you're doing and tell the others there they aren't forgotten.

STEVEM

10-29-2006, 01:17

Yeah wood gets old and weathered. No suprise there. Shelters get old and run down. Some get replaced every year. Sometimes they leave the old one up. Seeing that, old waterbars and thick sections of undergrowth in places has always been the case since I set foot on the trail back in the 80's. That doesn't mean the trail is disappearing.:sun

Anyone who has lived in the same home for 20 years, as I have, knows that nature has her own idea of how things should be. Weeds take over gardens, nice new decks crack, check and warp, windows rot, paint fades, shrubs become overgrown. None of this indicates abandonment. It is a constant battle to maintain my little piece of Earth such that it is usable as a Human habitat. All of the maintenance is required because nuture is continually trying to reclaim what she has loaned to me.

I have bushwacked up the sides of mountains thru waste deep stinging nettles and 8ft high blackberry thickets, crawled thru, over and around massive blowdowns and gone into balsam so thick it was nearly impossible to move or see. This is how nature chose to organize these locations. Presumably her message to me was that these areas are not human habitat.

By comparison, the AT, at least the section I know (NJ/NY) is very well maintained and civilized. Nature is certainly trying to reclaim the forest, wooden structures degrade, weeds grow, trees fall. With a little care however you can hike this section of the AT without so much as getting your shoes wet.

It seems clear to me that a lot of people have done a lot of work to make the AT as nice as it is. It may not be perfect, but it suits me just fine. If I need perfection I could go to Disney World.

I must say that I have never actually met an active maintainer in over 20 years of hiking on this section of the AT. And I must honestly admit that aside from picking up an occasional piece of lost gear or trash and perhaps tossing sticks to the side of the trail I have done no maintenance myself.

Some trail improvements are not as easily seen. The NYNJTC is contiually acquiring and protecting lands adjacent to trails. Without these efforts, all trails would eventually become a grand tour of backyard suburban sprawl.

SGT Rock

10-29-2006, 02:07

Complaining about roots and rocks on the AT is the same as complaining about snow and elevation gains while climbing Everest or sand in your pants while surfing pipeline. My problem isnt with how the trail is maintained, it is with selfish people who do things like cut through switchbacks, Camp on unestablished sites and dont repair before they leave, selfishly take more space than they are entitled to on established sites.

I love the trail, wouldnt change a thing.

I think MS signature gives himself too much credit and the trail too little. Maybe it should be revised:

[The AT] will not be appreciated by the stolid, hardy, silent and thankful, But complained about by men with lab coats of scientists, and the understanding of a child."

--From "The Thread" by Minnesota Smith

skeeterfeeder

10-29-2006, 04:20

Why do I get the feeling that MS suffers from an AT version of munchausen syndrome by proxy.

He gets plenty of attention and I certainly feel ill.

skeeterfeeder

10-29-2006, 05:24

Why do I get the feeling that MS suffers from an AT version of munchausen syndrome by proxy.

He gets plenty of attention and I certainly feel ill.

Sorry. I had planned on staying out of this thread, but in a weak moment....

To all those wonderful people I met (and didn't meet) that maintained the trails from GA. to ME., Thank You. You helped make my journey one I will never forget.

Topcat

10-29-2006, 08:04

Basically you have 180 samples of 10 mile sections of trail.

If 7 of those 10 mile samples actually had trail work being performed on them, that's just under 4%.

That suggests a whole lot of work is being performed on a 2000 mile long trail on any given day.

Rick,
To take the samping even further, most trail work would probably be done on weekends because of people having to work. Having hiked over about 40 weekends, that would be 7 occurences of trail work out of 40 opportunities or about 17%. I would say that is pretty good...:banana

mweinstone

10-29-2006, 08:25

godmorning minnisota smith. please disregaurd the idiots. they know not of witch they speak. id like to see more thunderbolts and ground shaking when you hike please. your a thruhiking god man! oh and some guy followed you up katahdin and took your springer pebble. hes sellin it on ebay.

Dances with Mice

10-29-2006, 09:33

Everybody, and especially MS, is missing the most important point.

People will be hiking the AT for as long as people want to hike the AT.

The greatest threat to not being able to hike the AT is not lack of maintenance, it's loss of the Trail corridor. Maintenance is important, yes, but if maintenance were to cease completely hikers would find their way along the corridor. And for as long as it is uninterrupted the challenge to hike all of it will attract a couple hundred hikers each year. If all the shelters were to rot away and all the footbridges collapse and the trail wash completely away in a few places, hikers would still be there.

The greatest threat to the corridor is the gradual encroachment of development. That's Weary's cue, bless his heart. But he understands.

ravenblackbeard

10-29-2006, 09:38

My husband, Steve and I live in the enchanting state of Vermont. We are both elementary school teachers. During April vacation, 2006, we cruised down to North Carolina in our VW Bus to visit an old friend, and do the "tourist" gig. While on vacation, we headed over to Tennesse (neither of us had been to that state, and felt compelled to have our photo taken in front of the, "Welcome to..." border-sign (sorry, left the hawaiian shirts, black sock and sandals home!)

We spent a glorious day hiking the Roan Mt. section of the AT. Along the way, we encountered an obvious thru-hiker, with whom we struck up a conversation. His trail name was Minnesota Smith, and he informed us of his dream to summit Katahdin. We gave him our phone number, and told him where the AT/LT would intersect junctions on major roads in our section of the VT woods. We wished him the best, assured him a hot shower and some homecooked food if he contacted us, we estimated, sometime this late-summer. We departed.

Month and months passed by. Occasionally, Steve and I would would recall our meeting with Minnesota, and consider his fate. He'd never contacted us, we figured he'd likely bailed. (When we'd met Minnesota back in April, he was quite portly, and seemed an unlikely prospect for such an endeavor.) Guess we'd never know, we summated. In the meantime, we'd also moved, so our phone number had changed, and well...we all know about internet access on the trail!

Friday, October 27th, 2006. I am driving from Middletown Springs, VT (where we live), to Ludlow, VT to pick up my daughter...a bi-mothly ritual of mine. I am driving due east on Route 140, which is a beautiful, twisting, curving road which affords spectacular mountainous views, and carves through old, traditional family-run farms in which wooden wagon-filled bounties of harvest are offered with handmade-signs saying, "3 for $1."

The AT/LT interects with Route 140 south of Killington Mountain in Rutland, VT, just north of White Rocks. White Rocks, with its Cheshire Quartz ediface, provides a unique geological feature: exposed white quartz, a sheer cliff, amongst the deciduous landscape, hence its name. I often encounter day-hikers on this road.

Seeing a hiker this particular Friday was not unusual. Being hikers ourselves, and having empathy for a safe, welcoming ride when our thumbs are up, we try to pick up hikers whenever possible. This day, I was on a tight schedule, heading to pick up my nine year old daughter, Delaney, and didn't want to deal with any possible, "sketchy" factor. I passed by.

About 45 minutes later, daughter in tow, I was headed back home, re-tracing my path. The hiker was still there, thumb extended. In the same mindset, I passed him by, albeit, not without slowing down, looking at his face, and mentally assessing the "sketchiness."

A look of surprise crossed my face and sense of the power of karmic, cosmic fate that baffles the common mind engulfed me. "Was this possible?" "Could it be our old friend from Tennesse, way back when?" All that I could pathetically articulate at the fateful moment was, "Holy ****! Delaney~ I think I know this guy!" I immediately veered to the side of the road, ripped up the e-brake, and jumped out of the car to verify if destiny was truly having its way with me this day. Indeed it was. Standing in front of me, at the AT/LT intersection of Route 140 in Wallingford, Vermont, was the same Minnesota Smith we'd met on Roan Mountain in Tenessee back in April. Although he was 50 pounds lighter, it was him! We exchanged greetings, and recalled our meeting. He hopped in the car, and the stories began!

I offered a warm, soft bed, a shower, laundry, home-cooked meals, and the blessed internet to Minnesota. He contemplated, but not for long! We were home within the hour. When we'd arrived, Steve was not yet home. A short while later, he pulled in the driveway, I flug open the door, and announced, "Guess what just happened?!" (No honey, I did not get another speeding ticket!) "Remember that guy, Minnesota, from Tennessee? Well he's HERE! I found him on the LT in Wallingford!"

"No way." Was Steve's response, also contemplating this cosmic, fateful occasion. We filled Steve's 12 year old son, Ben, in on the crazy story.

Minnesota stayed with us for a day and two nights. He weathered out some pretty wild Vermont weather, an epic wind-storm, which brought down lots of trees, and left us powerless for hours. He had a hot shower, a real bed, ate MEAT and fried eggs, did his laundry, regaled us of his adventures, and honestly, did not stop talking for less than 30 seconds during all of his waking hours with us, a true testimony to the human-contact, and hierarchy of needs one is tested with while in the wilderness for months on end.

It is Sunday, October 29th, 8:22 am. We're driving Minnesota to the Big Branch section of the trail on Forest Service Road 10 in Mt. Tabor, VT. There, with reluctance and expectancy, in this wind and snowy mix, we will bid Minnesota adieu. Today, he will see White Rocks. Today I will bring my daughter back across Route 140. We will see White Rocks. We will wonder, not just today, but forever.

SGT Rock

10-29-2006, 09:40

I finally figured out who MS reminds me of:

http://www.popkornjunkie.com/images/sherman.jpg

And a new nomination for trail name: "The Critic"

MOWGLI

10-29-2006, 09:48

I offered a warm, soft bed, a shower, laundry, home-cooked meals, and the blessed internet to Minnesota.

That's very kind of you. What you have done is one of the things that makes the AT so very special. Thanks for sharing.

STEVEM

10-29-2006, 09:49

ravenblackbeard, Great story, I'm sure your ears will ring for a week.

Minnesota Smith:"Time Magazine Man of the Year"

SGT Rock

10-29-2006, 10:06

Remember that old thread about "Complaints to the National Park Service"?

And I can prove it too :D http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=47125&postcount=53

I now think half of these complaints are from Minnesota Smith, AKA The Critic.

Topcat

10-29-2006, 10:19

totally Boagus

10-29-2006, 10:25

Rock, maybe it's the distance or the time difference that made you see this so clearly! he's "The Critic" form here out. At least for me!

SGT Rock

10-29-2006, 10:35

A small deer came into my camp and stole my bag of pickles. Is there a way I can get reimbursed? Please call."
"Escalators would help on steep uphill sections."
"Instead of a permit system or regulations, the Forest Service needs to reduce worldwide population growth to limit the number of visitors to wilderness."
"Trails need to be wider so people can walk while holding hands."
"Ban walking sticks in wilderness. Hikers that use walking sticks are more likely to chase animals."
"All the mile markers are missing this year."
"Found a smoldering cigarette left by a horse."
"Trails need to be reconstructed. Please avoid building trails that go uphill."
"Too many bugs and leeches and spiders and spider webs. Please spray the wilderness to rid the area of these pests."
"Please pave the trails so they can be plowed of snow in the winter."
"Chairlifts need to be in some places so that we can get to wonderful views without having to hike to them."
"The coyotes made too much noise last night and kept me awake. Please eradicate these annoying animals."
"Reflectors need to be placed on trees every 50 feet so people can hike at night with flashlights."
"Need more signs to keep area pristine."
"A McDonald's would be nice at the trailhead."
"Too many rocks in the mountains."
"The places where trails do not exist are not well marked."

These few even sound like him:
-"All the mile markers are missing this year."
-"Trails need to be reconstructed. Please avoid building trails that go uphill."
-"Please pave the trails so they can be plowed of snow in the winter."
-"Reflectors need to be placed on trees every 50 feet so people can hike at night with flashlights."
-"The places where trails do not exist are not well marked."

woodsy

10-29-2006, 10:43

O.K., so where is "The Critic" now. I know some trail maintainers in S.VT that want to throw him a party when he goes thru, a blanket party!

mweinstone

10-29-2006, 10:53

the ms 5000 is now available in 3, 4 and 5 hundred thousand cubic inch load capasity with exstendable coller that adds an additional 1 hundred thousand cubic inches for winter hiking. a large internal t.p. compartment and an antimicrobial squid pocket make this the most sofistocated ms pack weve created to date.

MOWGLI

10-29-2006, 10:56

I must confess. With The Thread total post count rapidly approaching the total number of posts by me - Mowgli16 - I am becoming concerned. Is The Thread really more important than Mowgli? I think not!

SGT Rock, I demand The Thread be closed before it surpasses my total post count. Fairness dictates that it must be so!

mweinstone

10-29-2006, 11:09

and mrs steave,..what left overs from your fridge did you give ms to walk with? and dont you know that dropping him off in windy snow after stuffing him with innernet wont fly without leftovers? you better have the right answer here dudeski. im serious. if i find out that you sent him packing with no foil packet of leftovers and it ends up foiling his walk cause the wind and the snow and you stuffed him too much,...lets just say at this moment,.. i know you sent him off with a special treat. you best have ,lest i continue ranting till the cows come home.now give it up. tell me what i wanna hear. what exactly was your send off package? candy for holloween? meat? booze? what?

Hikerhead

10-29-2006, 11:28

These few even sound like him:
-"All the mile markers are missing this year."
-"Trails need to be reconstructed. Please avoid building trails that go uphill."
-"Please pave the trails so they can be plowed of snow in the winter."
-"Reflectors need to be placed on trees every 50 feet so people can hike at night with flashlights."
-"The places where trails do not exist are not well marked."

There needs to be more road crossings. :)

Panzer1

10-29-2006, 11:44

MS, It is suppose to be a wilderness trail, not a federal highway. Shame on you for not seeing all the work that has been done to make it a sustainable trail.

I believe he has seen all the work that has been already been done and has remarked on it, he just saing that he has not seen anyone doing trail maintenance work during his thru, at least not enough to sustain the trail..

Panzer

mweinstone

10-29-2006, 15:26

reporting trail work is trail work.

SGT Rock

10-29-2006, 15:34

reporting trail work is trail work.
RIGHT :rolleyes:

Like complaining about the President is voting.

mweinstone

10-29-2006, 16:15

kidding...........

Sly

10-29-2006, 16:37

OMG, accidently bumping into MS on two seperate occassion 1200 miles apart would be a fate worse than... :-?

woodsy

10-29-2006, 16:47

O.K., so where is "The Critic" now. I know some trail maintainers in S.VT that want to throw him a party when he goes thru, a blanket party!

Just kidding of course:)

jlb2012

10-29-2006, 17:03

Just kidding of course

creative uses of a grip hoist perhaps???

demonstrating the use of a macleod as a backscratcher???

illustrating how to use a pulaski for digging cat holes???

j/k ;) :rolleyes: :D :-?

Topcat

10-29-2006, 17:12

As a guy who has spent way to much time on an idiot stick..( that would be a stick with a shovel on one end and an idiot on another) There is nothing more irritating than someone watching you work and telling you how to do the work but not rolling up their sleeves and pitching in.

Jan LiteShoe

10-29-2006, 22:24

OMG, accidently bumping into MS on two seperate occassion 1200 miles apart would be a fate worse than... :-?

... a metal privy seat in winter?

MOWGLI

10-29-2006, 22:27

... a metal privy seat in winter...

And your tongue stuck fast to it. :eek:

Jan LiteShoe

10-29-2006, 22:33

And your tongue stuck fast to it. :eek:

That would be a fate, alright.

LEGS

10-29-2006, 23:47

Mowgli16, Why Would You Say That To A Nice Person Like Jan, She Would Never Do Something Like That. That Was A Cruel Comment My Man.

MOWGLI

10-29-2006, 23:52

Mowgli16, Why Would You Say That To A Nice Person Like Jan, She Would Never Do Something Like That. That Was A Cruel Comment My Man.

Legs, you could always stumble and fall on your way to the privvy, and end up with your tongue frozen to the metal toilet seat. Stranger things have happened.

But I'm sure that would never happen to our sure footed friend Jan. :sun

mweinstone

10-30-2006, 00:00

halloween in philly will be clear and 70! that means ms will get that warmth a few days later. hes lookin at warm weather at the end of the week.goodnight moon, goodnight ms.

LEGS

10-30-2006, 00:03

Ok, By Me, Thought You Knew Her, And We Both Know She Can Take A Joke. Peace To Ya. See Ya At The Noc In Jan.

Jan LiteShoe

10-30-2006, 00:27

Legs, you gentleman, you! :-) Chivalry isn't dead yet

I'll see you BOTH at the SORUCK.

TJ aka Teej

10-30-2006, 01:25

I passed him by, albeit, not without slowing down, looking at his face, and mentally assessing the "sketchiness."

Welcome to WhiteBlaze, rave! :welcome

MOWGLI

10-30-2006, 07:28

I'll see you BOTH at the SORUCK.

I should be there Jan. I'd like to hear a bit about the Long Trail when I see you there. I missed your talk at The Gathering.

PS: The inspiration for the "tongue stuck on the metal toilet seat" was the scene from the movie A Christmas Story, which is a family fave.

mweinstone

10-30-2006, 07:32

goodmorning mr smith. your mission is to infiltrate and eat food. as allways, white blaze cannot avowell any knowlage of you. marshmallow pumpkins require no cooking and contain no trans fats.candy corn makes a stew when mixed with cherry soda and gingersnaps can burn to keep you warm.

Jan LiteShoe

10-30-2006, 08:47

I should be there Jan. I'd like to hear a bit about the Long Trail when I see you there. I missed your talk at The Gathering.

PS: The inspiration for the "tongue stuck on the metal toilet seat" was the scene from the movie A Christmas Story, which is a family fave.

Ah Mowgli, I just figured it was personal experience.:D

MOWGLI

10-30-2006, 10:12

Ah Mowgli, I just figured it was personal experience.:D

I may have a potty mouth, but that's not the reason. :rolleyes:

Gaiter

10-30-2006, 11:19

marshmallow pumpkins require no cooking and contain no trans fats

not to deviate off subject, but has anyone ever used to marshmellow peeps to sword fight, shapes w/ two legs work best, give them toothpicks and nuke 'em, careful they will make a big sticky mess if you leave them in for too long. its sooo funny, it may also require a few drinks to find it amusing.

Gray Blazer

10-30-2006, 11:26

not to deviate off subject, but has anyone ever used to marshmellow peeps to sword fight, shapes w/ two legs work best, give them toothpicks and nuke 'em, careful they will make a big sticky mess if you leave them in for too long. its sooo funny, it may also require a few drinks to find it amusing.
How dare you deviate off subject!!:D

Lone Wolf

10-30-2006, 11:33

Have you ever put gummie bears in your water bottle and let em sit overnight? They puff up to 5 times their size.

Gaiter

10-30-2006, 12:09

Have you ever put gummie bears in your water bottle and let em sit overnight? They puff up to 5 times their size.

oooh i'll have to try that one, it would be cooler if it was quicker. do they change the taste of the water? speaking of gummy bears makes me want to find a german store, german gummy's are the best, there was one near fort bragg, any one know of one in/near the triad of nc?

Skyline

10-30-2006, 12:10

In this 8 month period, the GATC has held 8 organized 3rd Saturday group work trips, with up to 50 people attending each trip. We have held multiple midweek group worktrips, as well. And that doesn't count the days spent by individual section maintainers on their part of the AT. We have at least 2 maintainers with over 300 hours of trail work this year, if I remember the report at the business meeting correctly. We have completed one major relocation, and started another. We built one new shelter, and multiple mouldering privies. We hosted several trail maintenance sessions of a week or 2 in length, one with Konnarock and one as an alternative spring break for a college group. Seems like a lot of maintenance is occurring that you didn't see.

What your observation means is that over a ~2100 mile trail on ~240 individual days, you ran into 7 trail maintenance activities. Since I can document many more occurances of trail work in a SINGLE STATE than you have observed, I would suggest that your observation bears no relation to the actual rate of maintenance.

Nothing personal, but I know lots of folks who put tons of physical work into the AT, and for little or no recognition. These VOLUNTEERS do it because they enjoy it.

Well, we who donate that time should take it personally. MS has repeatedly insulted all of us--insinuating we don't do our (volunteer) jobs, failing to recognize what we've done right, pointing out every perceived thing we've done wrong or haven't gotten to yet.

But it's much easier to realize this is just one sad azzhole who doesn't know much at all about anything, especially the AT, so we consider the source. Many more hikers understand what goes into keeping a long distance trail in hikeable condition and not only appreciate it, but sometimes pause to say thanks or like Lone Wolf, drop their packs to help.

If MS honestly believes there is a better way to maintain a trail I hope he goes out of his way to show all of us through actions, not by typing on a keyboard.

Frosty

10-30-2006, 12:11

it may also require a few drinks to find it amusing.The funniest things I've ever seen all began with someone saying, "Wanna see something real cool? Here, hold my beer a minute."

Thor

10-30-2006, 12:28

Have you ever put gummie bears in your water bottle and let em sit overnight? They puff up to 5 times their size.

No, but as a I child I used to leave bags of them in the car during the summer in order to create a horrifying (yet tasty) Gummie Amoeba. :sun

Gaiter

10-30-2006, 13:10

The funniest things I've ever seen all began with someone saying, "Wanna see something real cool? Here, hold my beer a minute."

oooooh last time i heard that one, someone lost a finger.

warren doyle

10-30-2006, 14:29

I love the trail and the trail loves me. We, the trail and I, are just one happy family (a 38-year relationship and counting).

Skyline

10-30-2006, 15:06

The truly sad thing is that MS has hiked more this year then most of his critics- myself included..so who are the ones really banging on the keyboard?

Sure, if you are going to only consider 2006, that may be true. There are lots of people who have participated in this thread who've hiked more miles than MS over many years, have a wider view of how the AT came to be, is maintained and improved, and the culture associated with it all.

He is entitled to his opinions as are all of us, and I'll stand by mine. Go back and read all of MS' rantings before and during his yet-to-be-completed thru-hike and you'll see this guy knows very little about almost any subject he writes about, especially the AT.

The Old Fhart

10-30-2006, 15:33

Boston-"The truly sad thing is that MS has hiked more this year then most of his critics- myself included..so who are the ones really banging on the keyboard?"Actually, of the 8 months he's been out, how much of that has been 'on the trail' and not in a house, car, etc?;)

Seriously, when you consider the time in years some of the posters have been associated with the outdoors and the trail, he hasn't been weaned yet. I first worked for the USFS about 1960 and have been actively in a trail club for about 30 years so I think I can safely say that I know the direction the trail is going in and it ain't what MS says.

I might also add that most of his critics aren't posting here because they have been on the trail thru hiking. If you talk to anyone who has hiked the trail this year and had anything to do with MS, almost all will have the same negative opinion of him.

The truly sad thing is that MS has hiked the trail (I'm assuming he will finish) and not only learned nothing but has a completely distorted views of the trail and its history.

bfitz

10-30-2006, 15:46

oooooh last time i heard that one, someone lost a finger.
Yeah, but I bet it was funny.

Gaiter

10-30-2006, 16:12

Yeah, but I bet it was funny.

no actually it was quite gross, but they re-attached it!

Dances with Mice

10-30-2006, 16:23

You must go to the same festivals I do!

It starts out by someone saying something like "That juggler's chainsaws are rigged! They aren't real!" ... or "Those knives are fake! They ain't sharp!" ... or "I saw a guy do this once, and if kerosene's good then gasoline must be better!"

"Wanna see something real cool? Here, hold my beer a minute."

oooooh last time i heard that one, someone lost a finger.When I hear that I step back, locate the door, get my kids behind me and punch the 9 and 1 on my cellphone.

But I don't leave without a copy of the video.

Gaiter

10-30-2006, 16:35

if kerosene's good then gasoline must be better!"

That reminds me of another great story, one that reveals the intelligence of my mother, luckly I have my daddy's brains!

So this happened before I was born/made, My mom had some company coming over, and so she called my dad to get instructions on lighting the Kerosene heater. So he tells her how to do that, and when he gets off the phone a customer who had been standing there listening to him, asked 'that wasn't a kid right' my dad jokingly responded, 'it might as well of been a kid' and the customer asked if she knew the difference btn gasolene and kerosene. My dad paused for a second and said 'lets hope so'. (lol, ya see where this is going, right?)
So my mom went out the garage, saw two fuel canisters, grabed one and proceded to fill the heater and then lite it. BOOOM, she was thrown accross a 20' room, lost her bangs, her eyebrows, eyelashes. She was lucky! Suprise Suprise, she had grabbed the gasoline!!!

leeki pole

10-30-2006, 16:38

minnesota smith

leeki pole

10-30-2006, 16:41

(sorry about that, hit wrong button)

minnesota smith
takes up too much of our time
now this thread should cease :D

mweinstone

10-30-2006, 17:45

ooooooookay,.........lets start with ,....lets see ,....who needs an ass whoopin? who just opened that can of ass whoop? common...............speak up,............fart?..............anyone?......... .thaught so.

now,.... all of us love ms,.......go ahead ,... repeat after me..........all of us respect ms,..... thats right,.... keep repeating,.... good job ,..... ms is a thru hiking god,.........all my children will be named lucas,.........good,good,.....ms is a member of this family,.......good,...keep going,......ms is handsome,.........ms is witty, entertaining, kindhearted,..............keep going, dont stop,... ms is a friend of the trail,.......ms never bul****s,.......ms is a real person,....... white blaze supports minnesota smith.

mweinstone

10-30-2006, 17:48

who cares? you.yes you detractors,neysayers and pony whippers.

mweinstone

10-30-2006, 17:49

allright i dont quite know what a pony whipper is but its bad im sure.

mweinstone

10-30-2006, 17:53

IF i were in your shoes and wanted to cut up and crit ms,.... heres how a smart ass would do it. what follows is the opposite of matthewskis idea of his friend ms and is intended as a tool to show jerks how to improve there stroke.

minnesta smith is the devil. he is antichrist. he will kill all of us i fear. his breath and farts have wounded our people allready and even now this insane man is plotting to take a crap on my head. as i slept in the shelter last night, i saw minnesota smith smoking crack.

Jack Tarlin

10-30-2006, 17:55

I don't care how much time he's spent in towns, that's his business.

As to what he has or hasn't learned out there, I haven't spent that much time with him recently; I haven't the faintest idea what he's learned....and neither does anyone else.

Fact is, he's been out now for more than eight months; he's lasted far longer than 99% of his critics predicted; most of the people who encountered him while hiking and didn't care for him either quit the Trail or are sitting in front of a TV right now; lastly, he's spent more time on the Trail this year than anyone on this website, including all of his detractors.

So he ain't perfect.

Who among us is?

I admire the fact that he set himself a goal, set out to achieve it, and kept at it, despite all sorts of odds against him and despite all sorts of setbacks; in addition to the fact that virtually nobody gave him a prayer of getting out of Georgia, never mind being a few weeks a way from completing a thru.

More power to him.

the goat

10-30-2006, 17:59

So he ain't perfect.

Who among us is?

i'd like to nominate myself.:D

(wait a minute, does one have to be humble to be "perfect"?)

mweinstone

10-30-2006, 18:04

oh and by the way? if i have my way ,and minnesota smith goes down in litterature as a spoken about thruhiker,......then every word wrote here is fully subject to being reprinted and taken out of context. therefor,........its cool to say crap now and wait to see what history writes of it later. things like,.......oh i dont know,..... how bout,.......................minnesota smith said the world would be better off muslum. minnesota smith said the government was run by angels from heaven. minnesota smith said he knows the third secret of fatimah and will spill the beans at the ruck. minnesota smith has 6 toes and 6 fingers. minnesota smith is a nark.too much for ya right? thats why its allways cooler to post crap like,.....go ms! were routin fer ya!

mweinstone

10-30-2006, 18:14

as the resident guy with nothing to loose and wiling to push the envelope,...... i sugest the topic of sex.today a girl at whole foods asked me this question, "did you find everything you were looking for today sir?" to witch i replied ,"no". she says with a smile knowing im joking," what didnt you find?" to witch i replied quite smartly,"shes 35 plus,single,loves kids, good body,........" to witch she interupted with a flirt,"im the one! jewish, redhead, mother of one, scorpio,....." to witch i walked of saying" funney.........." to witch she replied across the large room,..." cant handle the scorpio eh?!"

tommorow im goin back!
how bout you minnesota smith? any prospects?and for the penut gallery," what type of woman will love ms?"

MOWGLI

10-30-2006, 18:24

Well, he still out there hiking while us fools are typing away on the internet...like it or not, minnesota still wins!

Actually, if you've read what MS has written recently, he'd rather be done with the hike. He is evidently tired of being "out there." That's why he has been sleeping indoors every chance he gets.

Personally, I'm glad that MS is about to reach his goal. Good for him! I wish him well on his remaining miles.

However, the notion that whomever spends the most amount of time on the trail - is the biggest winner??!! I don't think so. Not from where I sit (and type) anyway. YMMV

max patch

10-30-2006, 18:24

how bout you minnesota smith? any prospects?and for the penut gallery," what type of woman will love ms?"

An Iraqian.

MOWGLI

10-30-2006, 18:31

Well, speaking of winning, let it be forever known that I reached 4000 posts before The Thread did.

Now, what do I win? A new keyboard maybe? Damn, this one's nearly worn out!:D

max patch

10-30-2006, 18:41

Well, speaking of winning, let it be forever known that I reached 4000 posts before The Thread did.

Now, what do I win? A new keyboard maybe? Damn, this one's nearly worn out!:D

You win a week hiking with MS!

Second place is 2 weeks...

Heater

10-30-2006, 18:44

I'm of the opinion that hiking>typing on the internet. And minnesota is out there hiking, so he beats all of us just banging away here...

Well, most of us anyway, as far as hiking is concerned.

But, there are many on this site that thru-hiked this year and completed their hikes weeks or months ago! Some of these hikers it seems came back with a renewed spirit and an improved vision of life and what lies ahead for them. Refreshed. These are the people that got the most out of their time on the trail (in my opinion) and I hope when I get my chance I will have a similar experience.

Some of those same people are here banging away. Does the fact that MS is still hiking mean that he "beat" them too?

I don't think so. :rolleyes:

mweinstone

10-30-2006, 18:54

you guys are stupid. ms has had the most solace. thats what allows for introspection. thats why ms wins. hes had the most introspection. hes really hyped up to share with fellow humans right now. and youve taught him of the cruel piggy hunters that must of escaped from lord of the flys you loose for not looking for the gem in each man. under the soot of mostly what you taught him,... lies the diamond god created now visable. we all shine after makin out with the trail that long. hell, we all shine after a night on the trail. so dont be so quick to assume you even know the ms thats comming off the trail. now more than ever, the gap of perspective that exists between the innernet and live life,.....shouldnt be overlooked.you guys diddnt hike with ms as i did for weeks. and im sayin i dont know him and neither can anyone.

Heater

10-30-2006, 19:16

you guys are stupid. ms has had the most solace. thats what allows for introspection. thats why ms wins.

Wins? :-?

Anyway, What leads you to believe this? :-?

mweinstone

10-30-2006, 19:18

cause the trail spits out folks that dont bend. hes gotta have changed for the good. everyone does. mostly.

Topcat

10-30-2006, 19:24

I didnt know it was a contest of win or lose. Hopefully MS is doing what he wants and everyone else is doing what they want too...

In a few years, i will take the time to thru hike and will be doing exactly what i want

Dances with Mice

10-30-2006, 19:59

I didnt know it was a contest of win or lose. Dude, let us not forget that I've got wagers totalling $35 riding on his finishing.

Lone Wolf

10-30-2006, 20:00

cause the trail spits out folks that dont bend. hes gotta have changed for the good. everyone does. mostly.

I bend like a mofo and it changed me into a dick with ears! A drinker with a hiking problem. So much for your theory. By the way, you coming to PA Ruck?

Heater

10-30-2006, 20:58

I bend like a mofo and it changed me into a dick with ears! A drinker with a hiking problem. So much for your theory. By the way, you coming to PA Ruck?

Well, see...there you go. You got a set of ears out of it. :D

weary

10-30-2006, 21:16

I bend like a mofo and it changed me into a dick with ears! A drinker with a hiking problem. So much for your theory. By the way, you coming to PA Ruck?
I'm coming if my proposed cataract surgery is successful and Lone Wolf is also coming. There is little I wouldn't do to meet such a icon as Lone Wolf.

BTW. What is a mofo?

Lone Wolf

10-30-2006, 21:17

Ebonic for Mother******er.

Pokey2006

10-30-2006, 21:29

And he's not an icon. He's just a drinker with a hiking problem.
:sun

weary

10-30-2006, 22:02

And he's not an icon. He's just a drinker with a hiking problem. :sun
Pokey. You choose your icons and I'll choose mine. No one on White Blaze provides such a fascinating and unique mixture of wisdom and offensiveness. That's my iconic definition. What's yours?

Pokey2006

10-30-2006, 22:18

Mine is that there are no icons anywhere. Icons? Icons don't exist as flesh and blood.

Geez, I was joking, hench the sunny, smily guy. That line of him being a drinker with a hiking problem was actually one of Lone Wolf's, no doubt inspired by a moment of greatness. Oh, and a moment of greatness he had today, just a short time ago.

weary

10-30-2006, 22:47

ed bell

10-30-2006, 23:15

I'm of the opinion that hiking>typing on the internet. And minnesota is out there hiking, so he beats all of us just banging away here...He's gonna finish IMO. It's admirable that he is achieving his goal. That fact has nothing to do with his "detractors". If MS posts something I don't agree with, then I will call him out. Pretty simple. I don't care if he is trying to break the calender year Triple Crown or trying to be the slowest thru-hiker of all time. By the way, if you think we have done some "banging away" just wait until MS is back in the saddle again.:-? I reckon we have yet to see what "banging away" actually means. Anyone from 1400 posts to 3000 posts better sharpen those typing skills if you want to keep up with "The Critic".;):D Good luck MS, and remember that the sky is a beautiful thing when it's not falling all the time.:)

Pokey2006

10-31-2006, 00:26

I would never, ever, EVER insist that another hiker not go to a party full of other hikers! Because at the end of the day, we're all cut from the same cloth, and we need to stick together and drink together and eat together and hike together and, yes, argue together, if we are to survive in this world of pollution of selfishness and weirdness.

saimyoji

10-31-2006, 00:35

Trillium

10-31-2006, 00:36

No one on White Blaze provides such a fascinating and unique mixture of wisdom and offensiveness. agreed and he's cute to boot. :D

Trillium

10-31-2006, 00:40

Have you ever put gummie bears in your water bottle and let em sit overnight? They puff up to 5 times their size.
have you ever put gummie bears in vodka and let em sit overnight? mmmm; great times at a tailgate. :)

I've never had 'shine; wonder what gummies marinated in 'shine would be like. :sun

Pokey2006

10-31-2006, 00:41

Oh, man, that's good...gotta love it! If all parties are in agreement, rock on!

:banana

Pokey2006

10-31-2006, 00:43

I meant samigyoji, yogi, samarari, whatever's post....sleep together. So funny!

saimyoji

10-31-2006, 01:18

I meant samigyoji, yogi, samarari, whatever's post....sleep together. So funny!

Thanks, glad I could make you laugh Poke-me, pokemon, poke-yourself..whatever....

Pokey2006

10-31-2006, 01:34

Dude, you rock! Laughs all around!

SGT Rock

10-31-2006, 05:34

About the learning thing. I would venture to say that not everyone that hikes the entire AT will necessarily learn from it or learn everything from it the same. Just as a general training philosophy - if you do something wrong a hundred times, you learn to do it wrong. If you re-enforce poor skills, knowledge, or attitude repetitively, then all you get are poor skills, knowledge or attitude. If you go out there and don't open yourself up to learning about something, then chances are you probably won't learn about it.

- If you go on a hike of over 2000 miles and never set up a tent, then despite being a successful thru-hiker, you wouldn't be an expert on tents. If you stay a shelter rat - then you might get a little bent by the idea of having to sleep in anything else.

- If you thru-hike and never build a fire, then despite being a thru-hiker - you would not even be able to do one of the simplest of camp chores that most would consider key to being a good outdoorsmen.

- If you hike 2000 miles without using a map or compass, you probably don't have any good suggestions on the proper use of them.

- If you hike 2000 miles, then despite what you may think of yourself, it won't make you an expert on trails. It makes you an expert on walking (maybe).

- If you hike 2000 miles with a bad attitude about something - all you do is re-enforce your bad attitude about it.

So if someone makes a 2000 mile hike, that won't necessarily make them an expert hiker, and expert on the AT, or even lead them to a new "awakening" from the entire experience. We have seen on this board (and I have seen it on the trail) where successful thru-hikers still don't have a clue about some things you would assume that spending 5-9 months living as a backpacker would teach you.

mweinstone

10-31-2006, 08:05

sargent, has anyone ever made the comparison between you and the hiker from germany who is in love with miss janet, bruno? i love and know bruno and i dont know you but you guys have a ton in common. looks, loves trail, been to germanny? support hikers with a passon, ect, really.and you both do trail majic. i bet miss janet might agree.anyway sargent, your a blessin! when will you be on trail again?

SGT Rock

10-31-2006, 08:34

SGT Rock

10-31-2006, 08:38

i have a saying. anyone who has a child becomes an exspert at changing diapers. i can change a kid with one hand, behind my back, blindfolded, while singing happy birthday and riding a bike. most folks agree with this idea. but other endevors in life dont teach so completly. do they?

On the same theory though - if you have 20 kids but never touch a diaper you wouldn't know crap. And if you did it wrong every time, you still wouldn't be an expert though you changed 2000 diapers. If you father 20 kids but don't get involved in helping to raise one you still may know nothing about being a father. Just having a number score or a title doesn't actually mean you know diddly-squat.

RadioFreq

10-31-2006, 12:32

Mother's Finest

10-31-2006, 13:05

Minnesota Smith was in Philadelphia Last night....he spray painted the hood of my wife's truck....

hard living in the city of brotherly love.

peace
mf

MOWGLI

10-31-2006, 13:19

Minnesota Smith was in Philadelphia Last night....he spray painted the hood of my wife's truck....

peace
mf

Makes sense. In the MS worldview, women have no business driving trucks. I hope that taught her a valuable lesson. :rolleyes:

Mother's Finest

10-31-2006, 13:51

i did not even consider that....he probably was in Philadelphia last night...

that sneaky vandal.

peace
mf

Dances with Mice

10-31-2006, 14:10

Minnesota Smith was in Philadelphia Last night....he spray painted the hood of my wife's truck....All right now, this is a bit much.

While there is testimony that he does spray, there is no evidence that he has ever used paint.

StarLyte

10-31-2006, 14:24

You left out sleep. Hikers need to sleep too. Together? :D

I insist.

And it isn't even Blackstone hour yet.

Mother's Finest

10-31-2006, 16:07

ok ok ok, I am not sure that it was Minnesota Smith. I saw the person as they ran off, ranting about the rocks and roots......they were carrying a large pack.

so, I cannot be sure, but as my tongue is so deep in my cheek that I do not know what I am saying anyway....

bottom line, someone spray painted the hood of my wifes truck---i think it was minnesota smith. that is my story and I am sticking to it.

peace
mf

The Old Fhart

10-31-2006, 16:26

Mother's Finest-"bottom line, someone spray painted the hood of my wifes truck---i think it was minnesota smith. that is my story and I am sticking to it."I don't think it was Minnesota Smith. If he did it he wouldn't have run off but stayed there and talked to you for an hour convincing you that he actually did your wife a favor by spray painting the hood. The painting wouldn't be just random but would be an elaborate design depicting areas on the earth with rich petroleum reserves.

MOWGLI

10-31-2006, 16:28

I'm dressing up as MS for Halloween tonight. What should I wear?

saimyoji

10-31-2006, 16:31

I'm dressing up as MS for Halloween tonight. What should I wear?

Your entire family's gear.

OR

A privy.

mweinstone

10-31-2006, 17:40

goof off is acetone and takes it off without harming the car. any hardware /paint store. yo mom are you rucking at the ironmasters for pa ruck? i am. january 26th!

halloween riddle: whats large and slow and traverses the appalachian trail.
a: storms b: techtonic plates c : minnisota smith d: a storming techtonic plate known as minnesota smith

answer:b: techtonic plates

mweinstone

10-31-2006, 17:45

hes telling folks hes an ultralightweight southbounder dressed as minnesota smith.

mweinstone

10-31-2006, 21:36

dear ms. as one christ follower to another, i cant wish you a heart felt happy halloween but i can say, oui veh! happy halloween smitty. your the only minnesota smith we got and we like ya alot! happy trails from all of us at the thread. one more trail holy day. candy corn it up . you need the guar gum.

the goat

10-31-2006, 22:19

Your entire family's gear.

OR

A privy.

lmao!.....:D

mweinstone

10-31-2006, 23:07

goat, ill pay you to come to the ruck in pa. commin? shinnin?

the goat

10-31-2006, 23:18

goat, ill pay you to come to the ruck in pa. commin? shinnin?

yup, i'll be there...ain't even gotta pay me!:D

i hope to be shinin'!:sun

mweinstone

10-31-2006, 23:40

silly goat, not ******* is for kids. real men ****.common you know you want to.( read in arnolds voice)

mweinstone

10-31-2006, 23:41

this is the two hundreth page of us talking crap. nice.

mweinstone

10-31-2006, 23:44

i estimate the condensed version of the thread to be only 20 pages so far.

Panzer1

11-01-2006, 00:59

i estimate the condensed version of the thread to be only 20 pages so far.

why don't you create a condensed version for MS as a gift?

Panzer

Panzer1

11-01-2006, 01:00

PS

did you ever tell channel 6 news about MS?

Panzer

mweinstone

11-01-2006, 09:07

as an artist, im allways working on fifty projects or more. im on it.
oh and by the way, minnesota smith is a thru hiking god in case you havent heard.

the goat

11-01-2006, 09:53

silly goat, not ******* is for kids. real men ****.common you know you want to.( read in arnolds voice)

45 days and counting, until i make my triumphant return to bobalicious goodness.:sun

mweinstone

11-01-2006, 16:16

dude, excelent use of the suffix,alishus! i may docubobe the trail next year. keeping stats on bobers. now im happy docushinnin the freaky trash at the different hiker events. so far ive come up with the secondary theory that there is a direct corrolation between beard leangth and shine consumpion per annum. im also working the bugs out of an in pack still. the problem is the required minnimum heat source needed to produce elememt 148 ,....shine! if only i can overcome the limmitations of pocket warmer chem packs and get them safely up to temp. i belive smothering them makes them hotter. at this point my research requires a chemists help. but i will produce the first in pack still,... dammit.
on a related note,..i put two dots over the nike swoosh and made kinda like a smerky smily face i belive could be my ticket out. im contacting nike tonight. and at work i dumped a half a gallon of marine spar varnish in my work boots and had to leave the site barefoot.after a sponge bath in denatured alcohol. as linda ellerbe says, and so it goes. happy day minnesota smith.

saimyoji

11-01-2006, 16:46

so far ive come up with the secondary theory that there is a direct corrolation between beard leangth and shine consumpion per annum.

Don't get started on beards again....:eek:

STEVEM

11-01-2006, 17:02

Does anyone know in MS was able to "Yogi-Up" and candy last night?

mweinstone

11-01-2006, 17:52

excellent question steavemnm. and candy up he should. did you know 4 out of 5 dentists recomend candy for their patients who chew crack? thats all i have to say about that

minnesota .......calling minnesota......its okay,......we know your on line,......as long as you did your trail today we dont mind if your sleeping indoors,.........curled up close and snuggly to the computer,.....lurking but never logging in,....sneaking around on tippy toes so no one has any evil comments to roast your way,.....we know ms,......its okay now,.......come out and play,....................................please?,. .......for me???

mweinstone

11-01-2006, 17:53

anybody want pp201?

the goat

11-01-2006, 17:56

i.............

the goat

11-01-2006, 17:57

want........

the goat

11-01-2006, 17:57

page.......

the goat

11-01-2006, 17:57

number.........

the goat

11-01-2006, 17:57

two hundred.....

mweinstone

11-01-2006, 17:58

chances of minnesota smith not finnishing statisticly and in your opinion.
chances of wheather stopping him for the winter.
chances of fall on wet leaves ,ice,slush.
chances of a fat toothless woman from the island of tortuga being talked into thruhiking the last miles with ms and coaching him on wifehunting?

the goat

11-01-2006, 17:58

and.........

the goat

11-01-2006, 17:58

one..................

mweinstone

11-01-2006, 17:59

that is just too fuching funny.

mweinstone

11-01-2006, 18:05

of all the people i ever met thru the trail, about only a few rule. goat rules the eastern hemisphere. you rock and you will hike that trail and come back east and hike with matthewski and you will do this in this life or i will kill you.with love. and a blunt object. and hugs. and a knife. and finnaly , i wish to thank the makers of the whisky im drinkin.mr bullit . his fronteir whiskey is good after a long day standing in varnish.

the goat

11-01-2006, 18:08

all hail, the mighty goat, ruler of the east!

mweinstone

11-01-2006, 18:09

we are rockin tonight ! where is everybody? mrs panzer,.... you need to make an appearence here. get a name. log in. join us. we are borg. we wish to assimilate your knowaladge.(nice spelling of knowlage drunk idiot self with a 9th grade diploma)(note to self: kiddnap ms and replace him with me)

mweinstone

11-01-2006, 18:12

goat, im asking you a real question,....how fast can you get to a heliport?

STEVEM

11-01-2006, 18:20

Where would you rather be tonight?
1. In Vermont with your boots full of snow.
2. In Philadelphia with your boots full of varnish.

mweinstone

11-01-2006, 18:20

im makin shirts for the iron masters hotel gig. im takin jpeg files of lone wolf and starlyte and ms and wee willy and a few others to the tee shirt guy and having a multi legond faces of trail trash shirt made,... that says ,... faces of trail trash! okay im makin a shirt and i dont know who will be on it but i think a split of ms and wyoming skateboarder would work. suggestions?

Topcat

11-01-2006, 19:48

Id rather be in the long trail inn, warming up with a long trail ale......but thats just me

Two Speed

11-01-2006, 19:58

Hey DWM, I saw that post about having $35 bet on MS. Does that include the $25 we bet (pledged?) to WB when Minnie gets off the trail?

Dances with Mice

11-01-2006, 20:08

Hey DWM, I saw that post about having $35 bet on MS. Does that include the $25 we bet (pledged?) to WB when Minnie gets off the trail?Oh geez, I guess it's time to dig back through The Thread and see who bet / pledged what. If you don't hear from me for a few weeks then you'll know what I'm doing.

Two Speed

11-01-2006, 20:13

Well, friends, that's the last we'll ever see of DWM. There ain't no way he'll ever make it back from the wilds of The Thread with that little item. Farewell, good friend.

I guess a nicer guy would point out that we agreed to the pledge in a PM, not The Thread, but I ain't that nice. :sun

emerald

11-01-2006, 20:30

Id rather be in the long trail inn, warming up with a long trail ale......but thats just me

Not a bad idea, but make mine a Humble Patience.

Panzer1

11-01-2006, 20:36

StarLyte

11-01-2006, 21:38

Matthewski and The Goat.....you guys are a lot of fun. I wish we had more time at the Gathering. I hope to see you guys on the Trail and/or at another hiker event.

I wonder where MS is tonight. Hope he's warm. I don't like to think about hikers out on the Trail this time of year being cold.

Shush Jan.

Dances with Mice

11-01-2006, 22:34

I rec'd a call from MS yesterday. Unfortunately it was while I was on the highway and we couldn't talk long nor could I take notes.

He's almost through VT and is expecting his parents and other family to meet him soon. He sounded well and upbeat.

ed bell

11-01-2006, 22:35

I don't like to think about hikers out on the Trail this time of year being cold.

Shush Jan.I wouldn't worry about it much. Cold weather tends to "light a fire" under people. It's hard being laid back or lazy when you are worried about your frozen boots.:eek::sun I always dreaded dipping water from the stream and watching it freeze around the bottle. Winter trips are my favorite, nonetheless.:)

Panzer1

11-02-2006, 01:15

Topcat

11-02-2006, 07:18

In the summer you have to worry about high temps, crowds, pershiable food spoiling, mosquitoes, ticks, snakes, bears, posion ivy, ect..

In the winter you have none of that, you only have one problem, staying warm.

Panzer

i agree, i prefer late fall, day time termps around 50, night time around freezing. i sleep better, breath better and feel invigorated. i have a tough time in very cold weather. I had frostbite on a trip when i was 14 (a hard leasson was learned about wet gloves and 20 degree days). Now when it gets bitter, it is like a thousand needles are in my fingertips. Does anyone else have this problem?

totally Boagus

11-02-2006, 07:46

I get that needle pain but it's in my eyes and ,well all over my body. It can happen at any temp. and seems to only happen when my mother-in-law is around

mweinstone

11-02-2006, 09:31

wow the mans parents are comming. wow. we need to see pics of them. also, minnesota smith is a thruhiking god. and,... there will be no bears while you are sleeping.did i mention the fact that im so jelous im going to jump off a bridge? abol bridge! common smitty get off the trail and give someone else a chance. wheres my shirt starlyte? i posted my address twelve times! i want my shirt! now. finnaly before i go soak in sawdust and fumes, the police are once again looking for minnesota smith in connection with a cake theft. it would seem mr smith " takes the cake!"

last night i had a dream and clothspin was there.(juliann)we were all hiking again.hope it comes tru.

Lone Wolf

11-02-2006, 09:32

MS's dad did 2 tours in Nam as a Marine aviator.

MOWGLI

11-02-2006, 10:22

MS's dad did 2 tours in Nam as a Marine aviator.

Aha! That explains the "he comes from good stock" comment you made back when MS passed through Damascus.

StarLyte

11-02-2006, 10:42

the goat

11-02-2006, 10:51

Matthewski and The Goat.....you guys are a lot of fun. I wish we had more time at the Gathering. I hope to see you guys on the Trail and/or at another hiker event.

ditto on that starlyte. i'll see ya at the pa ruck for sure!:sun

minnesotasmith

11-02-2006, 12:21

I've made it to Stratton-Arlington Road/Kelley Strand Road, just south of Stratton Mtn. That gives me only about 37 miles left in Vermont, I believe. With 90 in MA and 40 in CT, I'm getting there. My next piece is an overnight over Glastenbury Mtn. to VT9. I zeroed today @ the hostel in Rutland for multiple reasons, one of which I have a question about.

1) I'd like to make use of the hostel in Bennington near Friendly's that is not listed in the guidebooks. I have a phone # for the operators, an Ana and Chris, but no one ever answers. This # is (802) 447-7585. Can anyone tell me anything about this place?

2) I have an address for Tom Levardi in Dalton, but not a phone #. I don't have any info on the Birdcage hostel, which I think is also in Dalton (wanting phone # and city confirmation on). Scuttlebutt on the Trail is that Tom is the better way to go. Any info and comments would be welcome.

3) Left knee is very borderline. Have been worried it will give out for some days.

4) Camera with duplicate shots of all my Katahdin ascent day is en route to Matthewski.

5) I will be cleaning out my PM box shortly this morning. Have 30 minutes on library computer.

6) Snow keeps falling here in VT. Locals tell me it's running about 3 weeks ahead of schedule. Leftover effects of this year's La Nina, perhaps? I've had several days with snow averaging 1-3" during most of the day's hike, albeit not much since summiting Bromley Mtn.

7) Thruhikers Rainbow Brite, Mountain Dew, and Doc are all still out there (saw all 3 yesterday, actually hiking w/. 1st 2 for about 11 miles yesterday). Virtually no other overnighting hikers on the Trail that I see now.

8) The last several shelters have been excellent, top-notch places.

Lone Wolf

11-02-2006, 12:33

2. Tom allows you to tent on his lawn. No privy or restroom available. Better off in the woods.

minnesotasmith

11-02-2006, 12:36

saimyoji

11-02-2006, 13:03

[quote=minnesotasmith;265105]2) If there is so much trail maintenance, undoubtedly there are schedules for it to be done for all of the Trail, and records of when it was done. Anyone have info on, say, when Bake Oven Knob was last blazed?

quote]

Here is a list of events, including trail maintenance in the section you question.

http://www.bmecc.org/Schedule%20of%20Events.htm

I was there last weekend and can tell you that it was very well blazed, including the alien warp-tunnel blazed tree, and smiley face. :)

Perhaps this was done since you were through there.

MOWGLI

11-02-2006, 13:06

MS, if your knee is troubling you and you're worrying about it giving out, I have a suggestion. Take a hard look at your gear. Drop some weight TODAY. I think you're still carrying some duplicate items. Get rid of the back-up stuff today. Send it home. You're within sight of your goal and should have confidence in your abilities to adapt to most changing situations.

Good luck.

Jan LiteShoe

11-02-2006, 13:11

1)

3) After seeing "LT/at" signs for over 70 miles in VT, I have become irritated by references to a trail that IMO no longer exists south of Rutland. IMO the LT south of Maine Junction was absorbed by the AT over two generations ago. It's like referring to the Hunt Trail on Katahdin or the Jimmy Trail in the Whites; an unclear mistake of terminology.

Ah, MS poor baby, them's fighting words to all proud Vermonters and lover of the original long trail, the LT. You're in for it now.

The Old Fhart

11-02-2006, 13:33

Minnesota Smith-“3) After seeing "LT/at" signs for over 70 miles in VT, I have become irritated by references to a trail that IMO no longer exists south of Rutland. IMO the LT south of Maine Junction was absorbed by the AT over two generations ago. It's like referring to the Hunt Trail on Katahdin or the Jimmy Trail in the Whites; an unclear mistake of terminology.”

We went through this very same whine when you hit the Whites. The A.T. uses existing trails that have been there for up to two centuries. The local trail names are always first on the sign, which is as it should be. The A.T. isn’t going to “absorb” the existing local trail systems any more than a drop of water is going to absorb a sponge. The “mistake of terminology” is your referring to the trail names improperly, like calling the “Fishin’ Jimmy Trail” (named after the chief character in a Annie Trumbull Slosson story) the “Jimmy” trail. The fact that you can’t seem to grasp some of the simpler details about the trail doesn’t speak well for your powers of observation.

Kerosene

11-02-2006, 13:42

the “Fishin’ Jimmy Trail” (named after the chief character in a Annie Trumbull Slosson story)I was wondering where that name came from. Thanks!

weary

11-02-2006, 13:51

1) I've cleared out over 10 PM spots.

2) If there is so much trail maintenance, undoubtedly there are schedules for it to be done for all of the Trail, and records of when it was done. Anyone have info on, say, when Bake Oven Knob was last blazed?

3) After seeing "LT/at" signs for over 70 miles in VT, I have become irritated by references to a trail that IMO no longer exists south of Rutland. IMO the LT south of Maine Junction was absorbed by the AT over two generations ago. It's like referring to the Hunt Trail on Katahdin or the Jimmy Trail in the Whites; an unclear mistake of terminology.
I'm not sure how other maintaining clubs work, but in Maine, MATC assigns sections, ranging from about two miles to five plus miles, to individual maintainers selected on a competitive basis.

It is up to each maintainer to do the work however, and whenever he or she can. There is no set schedule, except for major projects like severe trail erosion or the need to bypass beaver flowages. These are done mostly by the Maine Conservation Corps lead by trained leaders, experienced in major reconstruction efforts.

Vacancies for volunteer assignments are advertised in the MATC newsletter and usually there are more volunteers than assignments available. Some maintainers have been assigned the same section for decades. Others quit after a few months, having decided the work is too difficult.

The system works because there are always enough replacement volunteers. Most maintainers recruit family and friends to help with their assignments. A few develop relationships with Boy Scout troops for assistance.

Weary

The Old Fhart

11-02-2006, 14:00

Kerosene-"I was wondering where that name came from. Thanks!"You can find the short story "Fishin' Jimmy" that takes place in Franconia, free to download, on Project Gutenberg's site here (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12417/12417.txt).

minnesotasmith

11-02-2006, 14:01

1) I got to see the Halloween parade in Rutland. Not at all bad, albeit of mixed creativity (FIVE pirate floats). The other 3 hikers in the hostel and I were all standing adjacent while it went by. Two of them were shameless in going after handed-out candy, saying over 20 times to parade participants that they had not gotten any candy yet. They made off with a couple of pounds each.

2) The parade was IMO marred primarily by the presence of so many politicians, including the Socialist Bernie Sanders. When he approached our section of the crowd to gladhand, actually talking directly to myself and the hiker next to me (we were in front), I made a comment about his group's banner that resulted in his instantaneous silent turning away. I told him that the red color was appropriate, but that they forgot to put on the hammer and sickle.:D

3) So, noone knows anything about the Bennington barn hostel?

4) Does Tom Levardi slackpack? I should add that I have slacked about 70 miles of VT so far, and would like to do more if I can. My overnighter starting tomorrow (doing what I call "lightpacking", at about 60% of normal max after a full resupply) will be the last I get until my parents arrive, otherwise. I've done some 12+'ers in VT this way. Except for the mud (shallower and less black than Maine's), the AT isn't overall bad at all in VT.

5) Willingly worked my tail working at the hostel last night (after about 14 miles of hiking). Was encouraged to stay today by one of their bigshots, and was told by another that I was welcome back anytime. Have given them some ideas on products to carry in their outfitter store. They've become a real friend to hikers IMO; if only Hanover, Kent and Troutville had something like them...:welcome

minnesotasmith

11-02-2006, 14:05

We went through this very same whine when you hit the Whites. The A.T. uses existing trails that have been there for up to two centuries. The local trail names are always first on the sign, which is as it should be. The A.T. isn’t going to “absorb” the existing local trail systems any more than a drop of water is going to absorb a sponge. The “mistake of terminology” is your referring to the trail names improperly, like calling the “Fishin’ Jimmy Trail” (named after the chief character in a Annie Trumbull Slosson story) the “Jimmy” trail. The fact that you can’t seem to grasp some of the simpler details about the trail doesn’t speak well for your powers of observation.

A trail doesn't need two names longterm anymore than a function should have two results from one input. I can see having the old, pre-AT name on signs and guidebooks long enough for locals and old folks to grasp the change, but for most of a century?? It would be like having a highway detour route sign for decades; eventually, enough is enough, and clarity should rule, which means referring to ONE trail only along a particular treadway.

MOWGLI

11-02-2006, 14:28

A trail doesn't need two names longterm anymore than a function should have two results from one input.

OK, we'll stop dual designating trails on the day that you can have "one result" hours after eating a hefty bowl of New England clam chowda.

weary

11-02-2006, 14:32

Minnesota Smith: "No, Weary, it's you who's offbase... "
Well, I'll certainly agree that at times I'm offbase. But I can not find which particular "offbase" this title refers to.

Ender

11-02-2006, 14:59

3) After seeing "LT/at" signs for over 70 miles in VT, I have become irritated by references to a trail that IMO no longer exists south of Rutland. IMO the LT south of Maine Junction was absorbed by the AT over two generations ago. It's like referring to the Hunt Trail on Katahdin or the Jimmy Trail in the Whites; an unclear mistake of terminology.

A trail doesn't need two names longterm anymore than a function should have two results from one input. I can see having the old, pre-AT name on signs and guidebooks long enough for locals and old folks to grasp the change, but for most of a century?? It would be like having a highway detour route sign for decades; eventually, enough is enough, and clarity should rule, which means referring to ONE trail only along a particular treadway.

If that's the case, then the name should go to the Long Trail. It was there first, and quite frankly the only reason the AT follows it is that the LT maintainers allow it to. Your opinion, in this case, is quite clearly misguided. And besides, why *should* clarity rule? For the small minds that apparently can't understand the concept of plurality? Not a worthy reason, not at all. Enough of trying to make things easier for the "stupid Americans"... we'er smart enough to figure out the, apparently terribly difficult, concept of 2.

Sheesh. Get a grip.

Frosty

11-02-2006, 15:03

A trail doesn't need two names longterm anymore than a function should have two results from one input.This is illogical. You're comparing a mathematical equation, which is rigorously defined, to a subjective means used to identify an object or a concept. A right triangle is a right triangle in English, French, Russian or Farsi. A tree has different names in each language,

Streets often have two or more names, for instance: Maple Street, US30, and "The Bypass."

Perhaps you meant:
A trail doesn't need two names longterm anymore than a person does. But then we have first names, last names, nicknames, middle names, trail names, screen names, etc.

The Old Fhart

11-02-2006, 15:08

Minnesota Smith-"A trail doesn't need two names longterm anymore than a function should have two results from one input."Functions with one input (A+1=5) don’t exist in the real world. If you had ever taken multidimensional calculus or physics you’d know how unrealistic your statement is on face value. For a simplistic example on naming conventions that you might be able to comprehend, you probably traveled from Baxter back toward the Portland area on the Maine Turnpike(Interstate 95). Almost every road in the world you could travel on has more than one name, always has, and always will. Perhaps you should learn to adapt to the real world, it ain’t gonna adapt to you.

Minnesota Smith-"I can see having the old, pre-AT name on signs and guidebooks long enough for locals and old folks to grasp the change, but for most of a century??"Ah, here you go, insulting the locals again. Didn’t “the incident” in Palmerton teach you anything? (rhetorical question) The “locals” have enough intellectual horsepower to understand that both names apply, you are the one that doesn’t grasp the concept.

Minnesota Smith-"…. enough is enough, and clarity should rule, which means referring to ONE trail only along a particular treadway."Actually you are referring to TWO trails sharing a common treadway, not too complex a concept to understand. I’m willing to bet that someone hiking the Long Trail could pass someone hiking the A.T. without there being a collision or pile-up! A technologically adept person can understand multiplexing or having thousand of separate phone calls traveling through the same physical “treadway”, phone line, fiber link, or channel.

the goat

11-02-2006, 15:08

or perhaps: a trail doesn't need two names anymore than a person needs to wear two pairs of gaiters.:-? :D

The Old Fhart

11-02-2006, 15:11

The Goat-"or perhaps: a trail doesn't need two names anymore than a person needs to wear two pairs of gaiters.:-? :D"LMAO!! I laughed so hard I dropped 5 rolls of toilet paper!

SGT Rock

11-02-2006, 15:12

Just remember this: The Critic.

The Old Fhart

11-02-2006, 15:18

SGT Rock-"Just remember this: The Critic."Actually, MS is like the guy sitting in the dunking booth at the county fair yelling:"come on, you can't hit this!"

Both of them are all wet, although the guy at the fair knows what's what and is getting paid to act like a clown.;)

leeki pole

11-02-2006, 16:20

1) I've cleared out over 10 PM spots.

3) After seeing "LT/at" signs for over 70 miles in VT, I have become irritated by references to a trail that IMO no longer exists south of Rutland. IMO the LT south of Maine Junction was absorbed by the AT over two generations ago. It's like referring to the Hunt Trail on Katahdin or the Jimmy Trail in the Whites; an unclear mistake of terminology.

MS, you want a little cheese with that whine? :( Quit sweatin' the little stuff. Hike the Trail.

mweinstone

11-02-2006, 17:44

one six seven one six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six seven one six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six seven one six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six seven one six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six seven one six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six seven one six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six seven one six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six sevenone six seven

mweinstone

11-02-2006, 17:48

food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food food