View Full Version : Why stay in a shelter?
flawoodsman
04-24-2006, 11:57
:-? After reading alot of postings about strange, homeless, axe murderers using the shelters for their own personal butcher shops:D I have to ask why stay at them at all?
Is it a law that you can not camp anywhere that you want along the AT (yes I am a newbie to the AT)?
Footslogger
04-24-2006, 12:08
Nope ...no law.
ONLY reason I have ever stayed in a shelter was weather. If you arrive at your campsite for the night and the rain is coming down like cats 'n dogs the shelters (not all of them mind you) offer an option to getting things soaked while you're setting up your tent/hammock. I stayed in plenty of them during my 2003 thru because of the weather.
Otherwise they are generally damp/dank and rhodent infested. One option is to target your hike to end at one of the shelters so that you can gather water and then hike on for another half mile or so. You'll typically always find a decent place to camp and will end up spending a quiet and peaceful night.
'Slogger
:-? After reading alot of postings about strange, homeless, axe murderers using the shelters for their own personal butcher shops:D I have to ask why stay at them at all?
Is it a law that you can not camp anywhere that you want along the AT (yes I am a newbie to the AT)?
i prefer stealth camping myself:cool: neo
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=9352&catid=member&imageuser=3462
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=7105&c=577
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=10579&c=665&userid=3462
flawoodsman
04-24-2006, 12:34
Foots and Neo....
Sorry if I came across a little ignorent there:p
I don't know what would be worse....waking up to a 4 lb wood rat on top of my chest or a crazed looney who just got out of the joint for killing his family:-?
I think I will plan on filling up some water containers and keep going:D
Really, there is no "correct" answer to this question. The bit about the murders and homeless folks is WAY overblown. You are actually much safer on the trail than you are many other places.
I suppose it all boils down to why you go into the weeods in the first place. Many people love the AT because it is a people oriented trail. Many newbies like the company, because it helps ease their fears. YOu know - the whole safety in numbers thing. Shelters offer that company.
Others stay at shelters because it's easy. There are usually flat places to camp, water, and a picnic table to cook. Its also nice in the rain.
Others hate shelters and avoid them at all costs. Still, some others simply like the solitude of the forest, or finding their own quiet campsite in the woods.
Shelters - love 'em or hate 'em, they are here for the foreseeable future. Use 'em if you like. Avoid 'em if you don't.
Footslogger
04-24-2006, 12:42
[quote=flawoodsman]Foots and Neo....
Sorry if I came across a little ignorent there:p
==============================
Didn't take your comment/question as being ignorant. And, I agree with Mowgli that to some the shelters are ShangriLa and to others the dreggs.
I like camping "around" the shelters for the purposes of socializing with other hikers but I prefer not staying in them very often, but that's not for reasons of avoiding "crazed loonys". I met my share of characters during my thru (and for the record I can be quite a character myself) but never felt as if there was any real danger.
'Slogger
flawoodsman
04-24-2006, 12:53
Yes I could see where someone who has "Fears" of the woods or ?, would like to beable to sleep near others for socializing.
And I would guess that the shelters that are further down the trail may be the nicer ones do to not many day hikers or weekenders using them...but that is just a guess.
It was just interesting reading some of the stories about the "Shelter People".
Looking forward to seeing what they look like myself...the shelters that is:banana
Thanks for the info!
Gray Blazer
04-24-2006, 12:57
Are you more N central Fl than Gainesville? One reason I don't like staying in the AT shelters is the overpopulation of mice in the spring and summer months. Some of the high altitude shelters are not so bad early in the season such as Roan, Tri-corner Knob. In the Great Smokies you are supposed to stay in the shelters (Except for a few backcountry campsites).
Just go and make up your own mind, but, I recommend carrying a tent or see my buddy Neo about Hammock Hanging.
flawoodsman
04-24-2006, 13:09
Oh and I have already made my mind up about buying a hammock/tent.
Never sleep on the ground again anywhere:banana
Agree with footslogger. Shelters often have all the amenities you need or might want (water source, picnic table, firepit, comaraderie) but sleeping in those shelters isn't for me. I stay awake most of the night because of the other people (and rodents) and/or I keep others awake, and as I often hike with my dawg that presents another reason not to sleep in a shelter.
There are usually tentsites nearby that allow you to sleep away from the shelter itself but still partake in the other features. Stealth camping a mile or so up the Trail is also a decent option.
Blue Jay
04-24-2006, 13:31
:-? After reading alot of postings about strange, homeless, axe murderers using the shelters for their own personal butcher shops:D I have to ask why stay at them at all?
Is it a law that you can not camp anywhere that you want along the AT (yes I am a newbie to the AT)?
Not all of the murders happened in shelters and none of them were with an ax as far as I know. It would be smart to stay away from those near roads. I tried to count the number of nights I've slept in shelters and got up to 365 at least. Only once have I ever had a problem with a human and that was due to chain saw snoring that emptied the shelter (I actually like normal snoring).
Like everything else, people like to spread fear.
Only once have I ever had a problem with a human and that was due to chain saw snoring that emptied the shelter
Have we met? :)
Ramble~On
04-24-2006, 14:42
flawoodsman,
The shelter system was a major part of the over all experience of my hike.
As stated previously shelters are a good point to aim for during the day as far as gauging daily mileage. They almost always have a water source nearby. Shelter Registers (notebooks left in shelters) are a big source of information and serve as the "Trail Grapevine". From these registers you can find out all sorts of information and leave notes and messages for hikers behind you.
Friendships form at shelters. While hiking it is possible to carry on a conversation with one or two people but at shelters entire groups of people get to know each other and as this process is repeated night after night bonds and freindships that might not have otherwise come about happen.
Shelters are like reunions as you never know who the next person to show up is going to be and often it is a hiker that you know and may not have seen for a few days.
Some of the best ideas and advice come from staying at shelters as if you have a question about a piece of gear or a menu idea there is usually one or more people at the shelter to share information with you as well as answer questions about anything else that might be on your mind.
If each years class of thru hikers are a family.....shelters are their house so to speak. I love stealth camping...I love camping solo away from shelters...but something would be seriously lacking if I didn't stay at, in or near shelters from time to time.
Why stay in a shelter?
Foremost, when it's cold and rainy, you really appreciate having a good roof over your head.
Second, too lazy to put up and take down a tent. It is the convience factor.
Third, there is a lot of socializing at shelters. Of course, you can tent nearby as well.
Finally, there are regulations certain places that restrict camping. One major example is above treeline in the White Mountains. Also, the Smokies have regulations. There are other places as well.
All good comments RE Shelters. It truly is a matter of personal taste. Some days it is definitely the thing to do, other times, you just want to be by yourself. Plus, not all shelters are created equal. Some are nice, some are dumps. Most shelters and campsites have one or two places to pitch your tent (or hammock) in areas that are a bit more remote from the center of things. Once you are out for a while, it will be routine.
As was said before, the ax murderers and weirdo's are few and far between. Word will get around the grapevine who to avoid. Rodents and other wildlife vary with the season and the particular shelter.
Regarding the "legality" issue: In Mass and CT you are only allowed to camp at shelters and tentsites. This is to concentrate impacts to small localized areas, rather than spreading out and turning the trail into a "strip mall" of campsites. Will the trail police come a bust you if you don't camp in the designated sites? Probably not, but you may get a gentle chiding from a Ridge Runner or trail maintainer.
Different states (and parks within states) have differing regualtions regarding camping. Those that allow camping away from designated sites often include rules about being 200ft from the trail and water sources.
Have fun,
Cosmo
Am I the only pyro around here? I set my tent near the shelter so I can hang out by the fire and let my partner/brother (Bartender) to pour me Scotch and smoke a cigar.
DawnTreader
04-24-2006, 23:11
What about Maine (I know the rules for Baxter).. anyone know if It is legal skipping shelters and stealthing off the trail??? i plan on doing it safely and as low impact as possible (hammocks rule), but would like to know if I am breaking any laws...
What about Maine (I know the rules for Baxter).. anyone know if It is legal skipping shelters and stealthing off the trail??? i plan on doing it safely and as low impact as possible (hammocks rule), but would like to know if I am breaking any laws...
There are a few places in Maine where you can't camp anywhere (The Hermitage & Baxter SP) and there are a few places where it is advisiable because of overuse and sensitive environments (Bigelows & above treeline like Saddleback).
There are many neat places to camp away from shelters in Maine however. Some areas near ponds are real gems.
Folks like Weary & Moxie can speak about this with far greater authority than me.
Man do what you want, if you feel like seting up a tent do it, if know its going to rain or snow and dont want to pack up a wet tent than stay in the shelter. When you get out there do what you want to do not what people say you should do in here.
Yes I could see where someone who has "Fears" of the woods or ?, would like to beable to sleep near others for socializing.I don't think that enjoying talking with other hikers around a picnic table is a result of or indicates fear of the woods. Some of us like to socialize and some prefer to be alone. Not right or wrong, good or bad, just "is," as Yoda might say.
I don't think that enjoying talking with other hikers around a picnic table is a result of or indicates fear of the woods.
No, but lets be honest. Many people including backpackers are fearful of spending a night alone in the woods. That fear occasionaly manifests itself in talks around a picnic table.
Am I the only pyro around here? I set my tent near the shelter so I can hang out by the fire and let my partner/brother (Bartender) to pour me Scotch and smoke a cigar.
Oh yes, the good old days. There is nothing like sitting around a campfire at the end of the day. But one of the LNT principals is to minimize campfire impacts. And there are certain areas where campfires are banned.
Oh yes, the good old days. There is nothing like sitting around a campfire at the end of the day. But one of the LNT principals is to minimize campfire impacts. And there are certain areas where campfires are banned.
I like to think I am minimizing the chance of a brush fire when I collect brush and sticks for my fire. ;) I have tried sitting around a candle where fires are prohibited and it is not quite the same.
Jim Lemire
04-25-2006, 21:18
Because some of the finest, most inspiration people I have met, have been at shelters.
Jim
There are times when a shelter is a "Godsend" but now as I snore very loudly (Not quite as, , , "vigorous" as Sly) I don't stay in shelters (mostly) for the other hikers sake. Well, for my sake too, there have been threats made, comments to the effect of "we are going to drive a stake into your heart" & stuff like that. I think they were joking, but,,,,,,,,
For those planning on staying exclusivly in shelters I must add: hiking the AT & not carrying some sort of shelter is totally irresponsible!!! Example: it is raining cats & dogs, you get to a shelter & it is full (12 person shelter with 15 people in it) the first time this happens, & you say "I have no shelter, can someone move! someone may get up & set their tent up. By the second or third time you do that, you are sleeping in the rain. AND, if you DEMAND they move that first time, you are likely sleeping in the rain then too.
I have never seen the above scenarios happen, but I have heard of it, not a smart move.
Doctari.
sparky2000
04-26-2006, 09:19
Even in the Smokey's, the regulations are nothing more then suggestions - more often then naught, tenting is often done by small groups that have hikers who have fallen together. As groups they have all the advantage of shelter dwellers (many whom don't carry tents, just tarps) and find it easier to get more miles/day as they aren't shelter limited.
I am starting a flip-flop in about a month in SNP. I plan on staying in a tent with my wife most nights however because we we be doing low miles to start I'm sure there will be many a night when we don't reach a shelter to camp so we will stay in the woods. I just hope there are lots of tent sites to stay in. Hope to see you all out there. Any one planning on being in SNP around the first of June?
trlhiker
04-28-2006, 22:21
I have heard that it is illegal to sleep in a shelter in SNP or within site of it. Is this true?
I have heard that it is illegal to sleep in a shelter in SNP or within site of it. Is this true?
That's true, they are reserved for bears. Sorry, just kidding. It is first come first served like everywhere else, although I believe thru-hikers have priority in SNP? Never been down south, so I better let someone else answer.
http://www.aldha.org/companyn/ga-tn06.pdf
Shelter Policy—While other backpackers must make
reservations to use backcountry shelters, thru-hikers are
exempt from this park regulation. Instead, the park automatically
reserves four spaces at each of the A.T.
shelters Mar 15–Jun 15. During this time, it is rare that
only four thru-hikers will share a shelter. As a result,
shelters in the Smokies are often very crowded. Park
regulations require stays in shelters, which complicates
matters. If there is no room left in the shelter, you must
set up your tent close by and use the bear cables. Only
thru-hikers are permitted to tent-camp at the shelters, so
the burden is on them to make room inside shelters for
other campers who have reserved space.
That's true, they are reserved for bears. Sorry, just kidding. It is first come first served like everywhere else, although I believe thru-hikers have priority in SNP? Never been down south, so I better let someone else answer.
So I think I answered my own question. Consult the handbook link posted for more information about making reservations.
RockyTrail
04-28-2006, 22:45
SNP= shenandoah national park
GSMNP= great smoky mountains national park
SNP= shenandoah national park
GSMNP= great smoky mountains national park
Oops. :o I hate when that happens.
http://www.aldha.org/companyn/va06.pdf
Backcountry Accommodations—Two types of threesided structures are near the A.T.—day-use (called “shelters”) and overnight-use (called “huts”). Camping at or near the day-use shelters is prohibited. Huts are available to long-distance hikers (those having an itinerary of at least three consecutive nights) on a firstcome, first-served basis. Tenting at huts is permitted in
designated campsites marked with a post and a tenting symbol; all huts within the park’s boundaries have campsites available. The PATC also operates several “locked cabins” within the park, but those require advance reservations and other arrangements. Contact PATC for details.
Backcountry Regulations
• Campfires are prohibited in SNP, except at the commercial campgrounds and established fireplaces at shelters, huts, and cabins. Use a backpacking stove.
• Camping is prohibited within 10 yards of a stream or other natural water source; within 20 yards of a park trail or unpaved fire road; within 50 yards of culturally historic sites, other campers, or no-camping signs; within 100 yards of a hut, cabin, or day-use shelter (except designated sites); within 0.25 mile of a paved road, park boundary, picnic area, visitor center, or commercial facility. Several zones have been designated “noncamping areas,” including Limberlost, Hawksbill Summit, Whiteoak Canyon, Old Rag Summit, Big Meadows Clearing, and Rapidan Camp.
• Camping is permitted almost everywhere else. New regulations encourage hikers to seek “preexisting
campsites” that show signs of use and are not posted with no-camping signs. Camping at those sites is limited to two consecutive nights. If necessary, dispersed camping at undisturbed sites is permissible, but they must be left in pristine condition afterward; use such sites only one night.
• Maximum group size is 10 people.
• Food must be stored so that wildlife cannot get it— hang food from a tree branch at least ten feet from the ground and four feet away from a tree’s trunk. Alternatively, overnight huts feature food-storage poles, which are to be used instead of the familiar “mouse hangers.” Park-approved, bear-resistant food-storage canisters are also permissible.
• Solid human waste should be buried in accordance with Leave No Trace ethics, more than 200 feet from trails, water sources, or roads.
• Carry out all trash from the backcountry, and dispose of it properly.
• Glass containers are prohibited.
• Pets must be leashed at all times and are prohibited
on certain trails.
trlhiker
04-29-2006, 17:08
Thats what I thought, they make it hard for thru-hikers don't they.
I have heard that it is illegal to sleep in a shelter in SNP or within site of it. Is this true?
In SNP, "shelters" are day-use only. "Huts" along the AT are for overnight sleeping. So long as you have a (free) backcountry permit, and there is room, you can sleep in a "hut." It's first come, first served--no reservations, and no special rules OR privileges for thru-hikers.
There are also designated tentsites at each SNP overnight hut, and at Pass Mt. Hut we now have the Park's first (unofficial) hammock site.
Nope ...no law.
'Slogger
we'll maybe i should agree with him..
My wife and I and another couple did a three day hike this past weekend. Planned all along to stay at the shelter but in a tent. It seemed as we approached the shelters, the thru hikers resented us intruding upon there space and were almost snobbish. Tried to engage in conversation but gave up shortly. I agree they should have the shelters and us weekenders take the campsites, but we are all enjoying the wonders of the mountains and should be more on the same page. With that said, my hats off the all I met for there spirit they have. Maybe after 260 miles the conversation was all gone!
so sorry joe...that can happen....i had a little of that myself and i had hiked 700 miles when it happened...i know it is common not to bond with weekend warriers since they hadn't hiked as much....but its always good to know that people that hike are just that....one thing i did was just eat at shelters to check in, and i always moved on....i became very much a loner, enjoyed the isolation and aloneness to experience what i was supposed to experience, and sadly to avoid the A-holes...or not be one myself...which i am sure several figured me out to be one when i was hiking.
There are so many people hiking the AT even before i even considered taking my 1st step on the trail that it is sadly gonna always be that way. One thing I have noticed, if you find a good bunch, they tend to attract that same quality of folks....the bad apples come in and have a bitter experience and seem to pass it along....there is also the phenominon of for the 1st 30 mins to an hr people are beat and want to just chew up the whole world and spit it out...then they are fine....i hope this is what you walked up to.
why stay at shelters...good people, good fires many times, and shared experience....why not...joe tells it all...that's why i hike past em after a meal.
There are thru-hikers who have a Superiority Complex but I think they are in the minority.
But what is more common is when someone new, not a part of the travelling "family," shows up and feels left out. Left out of the conversation, left out of the group's "history," left out of the group's upcoming plans. It is probably not intentional, but if you are that new person let's face it--you don't share a bond with these folks yet. It might take a few days to ingratiate yourself with the group, or individuals within the group. It likely will happen tho if you want it to.
My problem finding comaraderie with thru-hikers (while section hiking myself) was that I could not do the big miles day after day--especially at first. It wasn't because they shunned me, it was just that I couldn't keep up :-). After a couple of weeks this often self-corrects.
saimyoji
05-02-2006, 21:41
No, shelters are not reserved for thru-hikers. Only a few places reserve spots for thrus, the rest are first come first serve. Regardless of how far you are hiking. Snobby behavior is snobby behavior, no excuses. All thrus should have a shelter of some sort, and be ready to use it.
I realize that shelters are not reserved for just thru hikers, however, they deserve the shelters, in my opinion, over weekenders. I would never go into the woods without a tent or my new hammock, and am more eager for the experience and putting up a tent is not a problem. Let those that are doing this everyday for the next several months have the easy path. Just be cordial to all, is all I ask in return.
I realize that shelters are not reserved for just thru hikers, however, they deserve the shelters, in my opinion, over weekenders. I would never go into the woods without a tent or my new hammock, and am more eager for the experience and putting up a tent is not a problem. Let those that are doing this everyday for the next several months have the easy path. Just be cordial to all, is all I ask in return.
Strong difference of opinion here. I don't believe any "type" of hiker is more deserving of anything than any other type of hiker. Most places shelters are first-come-first-serve and that's as it should be IMHO. The AT is usually a very democratic place and that's one of its attractions.
I realize that shelters are not reserved for just thru hikers, however, they deserve the shelters, in my opinion, over weekenders. I would never go into the woods without a tent or my new hammock, and am more eager for the experience and putting up a tent is not a problem. Let those that are doing this everyday for the next several months have the easy path. Just be cordial to all, is all I ask in return.
:-? so you are saying that a section hiker that is doing 200 to 300 miles section
dont deserve to stay huh,up yours a--hole,i personally dont like shelters
i think they should tear them down,i am sick of potential thru hikers attitudes toward section hikers,more than 80 percent potential thru
hikers dont make it anyway:cool: neo
Strong difference of opinion here. I don't believe any "type" of hiker is more deserving of anything than any other type of hiker.
I think there's a "type" that's more deserving. The one who gets there first and doesn't bring a dog.
Just like in my life away from the trail, I would never want to be amounst a group that does not want me there. I will take a tent or hammock and gladly get away from any group that is not cordial to all. Why impose upon a group and lessen my experience. I go into the woods to be in nature and groups of people is the last thing I want to be a part of. Glad to see them, say hello and maybe chat for a minute, but off I go. If any thru hiker group is standoffish, to bad for them, and I am happy doing my own thing, with or without them. Shelters are for all, I agree, just for me it is the last thing I will argue over, and the last place I would want to sleep.
MudCakes
12-31-2006, 00:12
I have to agree about inspiration. One shelter I stayed at for only one night had a group from a Junior High School in MA. Although some fussed and complained (not having the proper gear), it taught me the strength they actually had - to survive up there with much less gear than I had brought. Wonder if they thought so......
Mudcakes
minnesotasmith
12-31-2006, 00:40
I think there's a "type" that's more deserving. The one who gets there first and doesn't bring a dog.
And, isn't part of some large group wishing to take over the shelter, especially if "official" (Boy Scouts, reform schools, for-profit types like Warren Doyle's expeditions, etc.), car-camping, or locals out to have loud all-night chemical-using parties who don't really care about hiking or the Trail.
MudCakes
12-31-2006, 01:27
And, isn't part of some large group wishing to take over the shelter, especially if "official" (Boy Scouts, reform schools, for-profit types like Warren Doyle's expeditions, etc.), car-camping, or locals out to have loud all-night chemical-using parties who don't really care about hiking or the Trail.
True.....and yet, if other's do not appreciate, in some ways it can sometimes make you appreciate it yourself just a tad more. Or, at least be aware of it. Yeah, it was the same hike where a friend of mine who was not an experienced hiker showed up with jeans and a top and hiking boots and gave up a hlaf hour or so into the climb, Then, on North Kinsman, a JHS outing Club showed up, One member complete with what I recall to be her pink "slumber party" sleeping bag. I recall that once we ( my hiking partner and I ) cleared away from them the following day, I appreciated the tough work, hard climb, and I think it was rice for breakfast - even more......This was a long time ago - and the bug bit me hard on that trip to hike and climb.....
But yes, I would not seek that out. I'm in agreement with RM - someone I know who loves the outdoors, who was telling of his love for a particular mountain hike in winter. Until he realized that the snowmobilers loved much of the start of the trail as a jump point for destruction of the quiet and clean mountain zen thing. The point is to get away from all of that, isn't it? I loved the story of the hiker with just a backpack made from a diaper box with PB and Jelly or something like that. :)
-Mudcakes
MudCakes
12-31-2006, 01:30
So what is the oddest/simplest shelter you ever came up with out there?
Mine have been fabric or jackets tied to a tree and then the ground and that's about it.
-Mudcakes
Gray Blazer
12-31-2006, 01:38
:-? so you are saying that a section hiker that is doing 200 to 300 miles section
dont deserve to stay huh,up yours a--hole,i personally dont like shelters
i think they should tear them down,i am sick of potential thru hikers attitudes toward section hikers,more than 80 percent potential thru
hikers dont make it anyway:cool: neoNeo, why don't you tell us how you really feel?
And, isn't part of some large group wishing to take over the shelter, especially if "official" (Boy Scouts, reform schools, for-profit types like Warren Doyle's expeditions, etc.), car-camping, or locals out to have loud all-night chemical-using parties who don't really care about hiking or the Trail.Two quick questions: By large, do you mean a group over 10 people? What do you mean by car camping in regards to shelters?
minnesotasmith
12-31-2006, 09:10
Two quick questions: By large, do you mean a group over 10 people? What do you mean by car camping in regards to shelters?
1) The definition of large group I go by is one of 5+. IMO such a group should always camp outside (not necessarily far enough away to be beyond perception distance, just outside but adjacent/near is okay IF they won't bother shelter-users or other campers with animals, major noise/lights, chemical use, litter, shelter water source soiling, etc.) shelters. This means ALL members of the group, such as adult leaders of youth groups. All this applies even if the shelter is atypically large, it's after dark, the weather is unpleasant, the shelter so far has no other users (smaller #s might always show up who have a right to shelter space, and they shouldn't have to ask/wait for the group to clear out), the group is some charity/youth/other self-believed "special" category (I recognize none, and to my knowledge neither does the ATC), and someone in the group has a "boo-boo" on their left pinkie toe. :rolleyes: Think of a "group" as a large enough # that the typical shelter's utility to lone hikers would be grossly affected by the members all being in it.
2) Car campers... Campers/shelter-users/"hikers" who either have vehicles within virtual sight of the shelter, or who walked in from their parked cars from a relatively short distance would qualify IMO. Say, under a mile would definitely make the cut as car campers as I see it, where 5 miles would not.
Lone Wolf
12-31-2006, 09:12
I realize that shelters are not reserved for just thru hikers, however, they deserve the shelters, in my opinion, over weekenders.
What bucha BS that is.:rolleyes: Thing is , a lot of thru-hiker types agree. Thru-hikers deserve the right to walk on a recreational trail same as everybody. That's it.
What bucha BS that is.:rolleyes: Thing is , a lot of thru-hiker types agree. Thru-hikers deserve the right to walk on a recreational trail same as everybody. That's it.
Zactly right. btw; Happy New Year!!!!!
I think it is first come first serve at the shelters. I prefer to tent as i usually stay warmer and drier but do believe in staying at established sites. My rule with the kids on trips is, if the shelter is empty, they can stay in it.
I would rather deal with a crowd than behavior like the following story though. Quoted from another "thread"
"My hiking companion and I were in our tent near the picnic table, our other three friends were in the shelter with MS when the incidents happened, I heard the blast (fart in someones face) and could hear the urine splashing on the ground (next to shelter), It was quite loud and due to the heat we had no rain fly on the tent and I'm quite a fitful sleeper to begin with. The following morning you could still see the exact area where the piss went, when I commented to our friends about what I saw and heard, thats when they told me the fart he blew was right near their heads, while he was still pissing, they were going to say something to him while he was pissing, and when they looked up at him, thats when he blew his cannon.......I was offended by the fact that there was not enough room in the bear box, because of all his ****. But I kept my mouth shut and dealt with my food in another bear safe way." Sometimes people only think about themselves.
to me, this is rude behavior.
terrapin_too
12-31-2006, 09:38
I realize that shelters are not reserved for just thru hikers, Correct.
however, they deserve the shelters, in my opinion, over weekenders. Nope.
I would never go into the woods without a tent or my new hammock, and am more eager for the experience and putting up a tent is not a problem.Good.
Let those that are doing this everyday for the next several months have the easy path. Nope.
Just be cordial to all, is all I ask in return.Yep.
Fannypack
12-31-2006, 09:55
1) The definition of large group I go by is one of 5+. IMO such a group should always camp outside (not necessarily far enough away to be beyond perception distance, just outside but adjacent/near is okay IF they won't bother shelter-users or other campers with animals, major noise/lights, chemical use, litter, shelter water source soiling, etc.) shelters. This means ALL members of the group, such as adult leaders of youth groups. All this applies even if the shelter is atypically large, it's after dark, the weather is unpleasant, the shelter so far has no other users (smaller #s might always show up who have a right to shelter space, and they shouldn't have to ask/wait for the group to clear out), the group is some charity/youth/other self-believed "special" category (I recognize none, and to my knowledge neither does the ATC), and someone in the group has a "boo-boo" on their left pinkie toe. :rolleyes: Think of a "group" as a large enough # that the typical shelter's utility to lone hikers would be grossly affected by the members all being in it.
2) Car campers... Campers/shelter-users/"hikers" who either have vehicles within virtual sight of the shelter, or who walked in from their parked cars from a relatively short distance would qualify IMO. Say, under a mile would definitely make the cut as car campers as I see it, where 5 miles would not.
what happened to the idea of 1st come 1st serve?
your post seems to express a little (ha ha, really allot) of the Elitism that many WB posters seem to say they associate with the views of thru-hikers.. oh, wait, u are a thru-hiker, right? (sorry i couldn't resist! :sun)I must admit that until i read this thread that I probably had allot of the same thoughts about groups & car-campers that u have but I now realize that if I arrive at a shelter & it is full, what difference does it make if it is full of
thru-hikers who arrived at different times?
thru-hikers that are traveling as a group?
thru-hikers from previous years who are out for an evening doing trail magic?
hikers, some of which are thru-hikers not carrying a shelter?
a boy scout grp?
a boy scout groups' leaders, all 3 of them, and other hikers?
section hiker grp that ONLY hiked 5 miles today because one of their grp is injured?Having said the above in reply to your, MS, post, I hope that the next time I encounter one of the groups that u mention that I will have the energy & tact to share with them why that they maybe should be tenting...
Isn't it all about trying to educate people?
Now, pls educate me on the merits of your point of view?
Is your point of view an elitist view?
1) The definition of large group I go by is one of 5+. IMO such a group should always camp outside (not necessarily far enough away to be beyond perception distance, just outside but adjacent/near is okay IF they won't bother shelter-users or other campers with animals, major noise/lights, chemical use, litter, shelter water source soiling, etc.) shelters. This means ALL members of the group, such as adult leaders of youth groups. All this applies even if the shelter is atypically large, it's after dark, the weather is unpleasant, the shelter so far has no other users (smaller #s might always show up who have a right to shelter space, and they shouldn't have to ask/wait for the group to clear out), the group is some charity/youth/other self-believed "special" category (I recognize none, and to my knowledge neither does the ATC), and someone in the group has a "boo-boo" on their left pinkie toe. :rolleyes: Think of a "group" as a large enough # that the typical shelter's utility to lone hikers would be grossly affected by the members all being in it.
2) Car campers... Campers/shelter-users/"hikers" who either have vehicles within virtual sight of the shelter, or who walked in from their parked cars from a relatively short distance would qualify IMO. Say, under a mile would definitely make the cut as car campers as I see it, where 5 miles would not.First come, first serve is as fair as it gets. Personally, if I were leading a group of over five people, I would plan on not using a shelter. Problem is that as long as group sizes conform to the basic rule of "group size should be limited to 10 people or less" any group should be able to occupy a shelter if there is room at their time of arrival. I understand your concerns about this MS, but you have unrealistic expectations as far as "large groups" go.
The "car camping" issue is easy to avoid. Probably a better idea to avoid shelters that are close to parking areas rather than worry about whether or not someone walked far enough to deserve shelter space.
I realize that shelters are not reserved for just thru hikers, however, they deserve the shelters, in my opinion, over weekenders. I would never go into the woods without a tent or my new hammock, and am more eager for the experience and putting up a tent is not a problem. Let those that are doing this everyday for the next several months have the easy path. Just be cordial to all, is all I ask in return.
Yup, bulls..t, you're putting yourself above other types of hikers with that attitude...you could be in for a rude awakening duuuuude:eek:.LOL. The trail's for everyone and doesn't discriminate cept rare instances.
Dances with Mice
12-31-2006, 21:20
2) Car campers... Campers/shelter-users/"hikers" who either have vehicles within virtual sight of the shelter, or who walked in from their parked cars from a relatively short distance would qualify IMO. Say, under a mile would definitely make the cut as car campers as I see it, where 5 miles would not.
How do you tell if someone is a thru-hiker, a weekend hiker, or what you define as a car camper? What if they park nearby and tell everyone they're a thru-hiker? Or that they started from further away?
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander: You already recommended that some thru-hikers lie to others and say they're out on a picnic. Or has experience changed your mind about your topic of two years ago, post no. 54 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6020&page=3&highlight=BREASTFEEDING)?
DancesWithMice, would you report a couple that took a 3-month-old out for a weekend hike in good weather that were obviously fully prepared for the outing? If not, then you have IMO just identified how this couple could deflect a considerable amount of uninvited interference. All they would have to do is tell people they are weekend hikers, and most people might well drop it right there. After all, people take infants on weekend trips to grandma's, picnicing at the lake, walking around at the park, etc., all the time, and noone normally would think to give such parents Hades on those occasions.
iamscottym
01-01-2007, 03:24
I think shelter useage should go to the highest bidder, with the proceeds going to support the local trail maintainence crew and the ATC. Each night an impromptu auction would be conducted at a preset time. Hikers could bid and win as many spaces as they wanted.
Hikers arriving after the set time could try to buy spaces off those who had won them, with the profits from this resale going to the ATC. This would prevent 'shelter capitalists' from buying up all the space and then profitting from reselling it.
Programbo
01-01-2007, 10:01
I think it`s always been first come first served at shelters as far back as there have been shelters..BUT..I don`t think large groups should eat up an entire shelter..Or don`t think dogs should take up a spot (I personally don`t think dogs should be on the trail but that`s my problem..LOL)....As crowded as the trail has appearently become it seems foolish not to assume the shelter will be full and have a backup plan (Tent, Tarp, whatever)....Maybe White Blaze could start a fund and have additional shelters built...How much can one cost anyway?
minnesotasmith
01-01-2007, 10:32
How do you tell if someone is a thru-hiker, a weekend hiker, or what you define as a car camper? What if they park nearby and tell everyone they're a thru-hiker? Or that they started from further away?
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander: You already recommended that some thru-hikers lie to others and say they're out on a picnic. Or has experience changed your mind about your topic of two years ago, post no. 54 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6020&page=3&highlight=BREASTFEEDING)?
I don't say that I would be able to tell which type of hiker is which. This is a limitation that I would hope that some hikers would impose on themselves in how they behave on the Trail. As far as hikers not telling other people the truth when asked their situation, I still believe that that can be a reasonable response to preserve one's privacy. When a lone hiker is asked by one or more strangers where they are going to sleep tonight, if they are alone on the Trail or not, etc., being vague or misleading is something many hikers believe can be an appropriate response.
terrapin_too
01-01-2007, 10:41
Shelters are just.... there. Often they're in the "wrong" place for my hiking itinerary, or they're full, or they're occupied with folks I'd rather not be with. Some shelters are nasty, some are pleasant. I've had some very enjoyable evenings in shelters with good people. I've had some unpleasant stays, with rowdy, obnoxious types. I'm sure more than once I was among the rowdy, obnoxious ones. I do a lot of hiking off-season so mice aren't much of an issue. I always carry a tent, so I always have a choice. If I'm traveling solo, I get enough solitude during the day -- nice to have company on a long summer evening.
YMMV, HYOH, etc. etc., but IMO, it's just plain wrong to depend on a shelter, and just plain common sense to have an alternate plan at all times.
copythat
01-01-2007, 16:25
Shelters are just.... there. Often they're in the "wrong" place for my hiking itinerary, or they're full, or they're occupied with folks I'd rather not be with. Some shelters are nasty, some are pleasant. I've had some very enjoyable evenings in shelters with good people. I've had some unpleasant stays, with rowdy, obnoxious types. I'm sure more than once I was among the rowdy, obnoxious ones. I do a lot of hiking off-season so mice aren't much of an issue. I always carry a tent, so I always have a choice. If I'm traveling solo, I get enough solitude during the day -- nice to have company on a long summer evening.
YMMV, HYOH, etc. etc., but IMO, it's just plain wrong to depend on a shelter, and just plain common sense to have an alternate plan at all times.
well put, t_t.
i think it would be nice to believe that either people will be honest and considerate, or that there is some way to ... legislate? ... that honesty and consideration, but what you've done here is sum up the reality of the situation.
wise words.
(especially from someone whose hometown's claim to fame is some tattered piece of fabric ... ;) )
Trillium
01-02-2007, 00:03
this was posted by Jack on the thread about the AMC land purchase in Maine:
"Public land is just that.....it's public, which means everyone should have the right to enjoy it, and not merely those who can pay top dollar for the privilege."
It basically expresses the way I feel about the shelters with a slight modification:
Public shelters are just that.....they're public, which means everyone should have the right to enjoy them, and not merely those who think they are privileged because they intend to walk 2,174 miles on the AT.
First come, first served without regard as to how far one will be walking on the AT.
I liked shelters because they are collection points for people. I always felt safer when people were near and because of the social contact. I was on trail for 4.5 weeks and never came across a person I thought was dangerous. A couple of folks were a little odd but I'm sure they thought I was odd. And just because everyone in the group is doing a thru-hike doesn't mean you will all like each other. Later in my hike I started pitching my tent near shelters rather than sleeping in them. For two reasons. 1-I slept bette. 2-The shelter were becoming unliveable. (laugh). Just an added comment about sleeping near strangers. I remember two hikers on my attempted thru-hike this year in 2006. Mr Blister and another guy(I forgot his trial name). Me they will forever be known as .... Jackhammer and Chainsaw.
the_iceman
01-02-2007, 20:01
[quote=Footslogger;196536
I like camping "around" the shelters for the purposes of socializing with other hikers but I prefer not staying in them very often ...
'Slogger[/quote]
I am with 'Slogger, I like to socialize a bit but prefer the no bugs, no mice, no snoring, no farts (mine are okay), no wet dogs, no spiders in the mouth that you get from a tent. Oh yeah, the soft ground.
However, during that downpour they are inviting unless 38 people are already in it.:D
the_iceman
01-02-2007, 20:03
wish you could edit your mistakes - screwed up the quote
terrapin_too
01-02-2007, 20:38
wish you could edit your mistakes - screwed up the quote
Pay $10 or $20, become a "donating" member. That's all it takes.
trlhiker
01-02-2007, 21:43
Lots of different opinions here. I believe it is first come first serve but as long as there is room, the people I have camped with have always invited others in. On one occasion, there were at least 20 people in the shelter we were at, Paul C. Wolfe shelter in Va. Those who have been there know how big it is. Anywho, it was raining and right before it got dark, two thru hikers came in and we all closed ranks and made room for them.
Another time I came upon a shelter that had just 4 people in it, Punchbowl shelter, and when I asked them to make a bit of room for me, they proclaimed that the shelter was full. Not wanting to argue, I went and found a flat spot to sleep. They were gone when I woke up.
Arriving at another shelter, we found a scout group had taken over a shelter and had their tents set up in the shelter, this was the second time I have seen tents set up in shelters, the other time was when I was dayhiking to the Priest.
I like to stay in shelters myself and have never really had a problem with mice.
the_iceman
01-03-2007, 20:52
Thanks Terrapin _too I did not know that. I am in the $$ conservation mode for my hike but this site is making it possible so I will take care of that.