View Full Version : John Donovan's body found
??
http://www.thedesertsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060604/UPDATE/606040367
http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_155220742.html
MedicineMan
06-05-2006, 02:04
i missed the story then so what's up besides what the articles state? foul play?
Just Jeff
06-05-2006, 12:25
PCT thru who got lost in a storm on Fuller Ridge last year. This year, two day hikers got lost for a few days and found his campsite, which gave them food and warmth so they could be rescued - and gave the rescuers a search point.
See the other two current threads about "missing PCT hiker" and "campsite saves hikers" or something like that for the full story.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-05-2006, 12:49
I hope this gives his family some peace and closure.
Shutterbug
06-05-2006, 13:21
i missed the story then so what's up besides what the articles state? foul play?
After this length of time, it may not be possible to determine the exact cause of death, but there is no indication of foul play. His pack still had food, so he didn't starve. My guess is that he died from exposure.
So far the news reports seem to indicate that he was attempting to hike the PCT, but strayed off the trail during a series of intense snow storms. His pack still had food and matches; however, he wrote notes his maps and other paper in his pack indicating that he considered his situation to be desperate.
By reading between the lines, I have assumed that his desperate situation related to the weather and to the fact that he couldn't determine his location.
My guess is that he died from "exposure."
wow man, wow............i'm glad they found him because it will finally bring closure for so many who loved him..........
Fannypack
06-05-2006, 14:04
U can see looking at this map of the San Jacinto State Park, http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/636/files/MtSanJacintoSPmap.pdf , that the PCT takes a turn to the west, then north before it goes NNW along Fuller Ridge (upper left of this map). The PCT is marked. Also for anyone who is familiar with the PCT along Fuller Ridge, u will see Black Mtn Rd at the end of Fuller Ridge. In bad weather it would be be very easy to keep going north (i.e., getting off the PCT) and start coming down the North face of Mt Jacinto...
See Squeaky's post from his PCT06 hike: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=202338&postcount=55 (if this link doesn't work go to this page & find Squeaky: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9052&page=3 ) .
As I remember from 2001, the PCT goes along Fuller Ridge on the NorthWest side for a while & u actually loss attitude before crossing the ridge to the Northeast side. The day we went along Fuller Ridge the PCT was hard to find for the most part and it was a sunny day about 70 degreess but it was 10 of us hiking thru that day which helped when it came to breaking the trail thru the snow, postholing allot, see May 5, 2001 entry here: http://hikercafe.com/pct2001/2001-05%20journal.htm ...
May God bless John Donovan and his friends & family.
icemanat95
06-05-2006, 14:58
Without water, he would be in dire straits, whether he had food or not. Likewise if he had gotten badly frostbitten in the storm. He would not have been able to travel back to where he needed to be. He may also have run out of fuel and been unable to cook his food.
There are so many things that could have gone wrong.
wow man, wow............i'm glad they found him because it will finally bring closure for so many who loved him..........
I had the same thoughts. Knowing the fate of John will hopefully bring some comfort to his loved ones.
Great maps Fannypack. My thinking is that that Donovan took a wrong turn at Wellman's Divide, maybe took the eastern fork toward the Tram and then ending up following lights into the Long Creek drainage basin on some very steep and roughed terrain. I have heard that the area was approx 3 miles from the tram. Donovan's journal may shed light on the events that occurred on the trail during a time of extreme conditions. Also, Donovan's body was intact sitting on a log within 100 yds of his camp. RIP John.
I havn't heard any talk of him having a tent. You might think that a experienced hiker that was becomming hypothermic would set up his tent and get in and hunker down...
Panzer
Just Jeff
06-05-2006, 23:15
No matter how experienced the hiker is, many hypothermia victims are found outside of their sleeping bags, often naked. Right before they die, as the body is shutting down, they think they're too hot and start stripping down.
I havn't heard any talk of him having a tent. You might think that a experienced hiker that was becomming hypothermic would set up his tent and get in and hunker down...
Panzer
I tink I remember reading that he had one of those pancho/tent setups for his shelter.
MedicineMan
06-06-2006, 05:51
and for the maps. I'm going to take the story this way, that all of us should be attentive to our lives,surroundings,weather, and so on. Katrina is another bell ringing if we will listen. Since he was a hiker he was part of the family and in that a loss.
I havn't heard any talk of him having a tent. You might think that a experienced hiker that was becomming hypothermic would set up his tent and get in and hunker down...
Panzer
Nope. My personal experience, even mild hypothermia, can impare your judgement. Both times I have had it, I "felt fine", the first time I even felt hot. So, John may have thought he too was "fine" or even warm. I never thought to stop, set up camp & warm up, remember, I was fine. AND, I am (supposedly) trained in recognizing the signs & symptomes, and the 2nd time, I already had experience. The second time another group of hikers had to FORCE me to set up camp & get in my sleeping bag.
I'm glad John was found. Hope the family can now heal.
Doctari.
http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=4992108&nav=9qrx
Found out this morning the location of where John Donovan was found, and also where the couple from TX got lost. The location was described at around 4500 ft elev. on Hidden Fork Creek approx coordinates N33.79720 W116.61373. This area is well off the PCT, probably 6 miles or so
(by foot) on very steep terrain heading in the direction of Palm Springs. This area must really be confusing, and dangerous, for these lost hiker events to have occurred.
and some burial details.
http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArti cle&c=MGArticle&cid=1149188373517&path=!news&s=1045855934842
and some burial details.
http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArti cle&c=MGArticle&cid=1149188373517&path=!news&s=1045855934842i wonder when that will be??
Wow ... Google earth gives you a lot of perspective on the coordinates above .... It's hard to imagine dying in such a romote spot all alone and with no hope.
Wow ... Google earth gives you a lot of perspective on the coordinates above .... It's hard to imagine dying in such a romote spot all alone and with no hope.
Too often when something happens like this you will never get coordinates or detailed info of the exact place his camp was found. I was determined to try to find the exact location when the couple from Texas found his camp within 2 days or so when others have been looking for a year. Like I said, its got to be a dangerous and very confusing area, everybody that hikes the area should have the information available if they want it. The coordinates I gave and the nearest street, with houses and business' was 2000 feet away, of course this is as the crow flies and the drop in elevation was just over 4000 feet. This, I speculate, is why he had reached the end-of-the-Line. Maybe we will get more info later.
My coordinates are based on information I pieced together from Sheriff reports and Media reports, using good Topo Maps and Elevations I pinpointed the area. The name of the Creek (Hidden Fork) was the piece of the puzzle I needed. I hiked thru the area, but remained on the PCT, last year and its a rugged area and nothing to take lightly, I can't imagine being up there in white-out conditions. Hopefully, someone in CA, maybe the PCT org. or the Riverside S & R will post information warning hikers of this area and also note that the bright lights of Palm Springs can be misleading.
If someone out there gets a report, from a more reliable source, telling the exact location of the camp. Please post it here, like I said I pieced this together and it could be wrong. I see no reason not to notify people of the location once the scene has been investigated and the incident wrapped up.
John was one of us, a hiker and even an AT hiker, by learning what went wrong it may help avoid this happening to another one of us, regardless of experience.
I can only imagine .. but as I said, Google Earth gives you alot of perspective. This video link posted earlier also gives some perspective on how rugged this area is http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_155220742.html
His last entry was about 5 days after he was last seen approaching fuller ridge, that would mean that he traveled about 6 mile over VERY rugged terrain in that time and was stranded there for ?? how long?
I didn't have the pleasure of knowing John, although I've come to know a few things about John from the writings of others. I can honestly say that my life has been the poorer from never having met him.
Other posts have stated that a cause of death is undeterminable, and I would be curious to hear more of his journal, although his final thoughts should remain private.
My larger question is this ... there have been a number of opinions as to why and where, but honestly, what lessons would John want the hiking community to take away from his passing?
Should backpackers take more heed of survival training/knowledge/books/videos and practice these skills?
Should hikers carry better navigation aids/maps/gps's/Personal locator beacons?
What lessons should the community capture?
The answer is "Be Prepared". Have the proper gear, keep tabs on trail blazing, weather forecast, and know when to stop or evacuate. Without proper gear, instead of being able to hunker down and wait out a storm one will try to walk out of it, this could be very dangerous.
Clark Fork
06-15-2006, 15:14
Wow ... Google earth gives you a lot of perspective on the coordinates above .... It's hard to imagine dying in such a romote spot all alone and with no hope.
The two deaths on the PCT in May and the finding of the body of John Donovan have given me pause as I complete my planning for the JMT this summer. I have tried not to get silly and over-react but I am over 60, hike solo and so all this news has affected me deeply. A long time ago in the sixties, a thunder/lighting storm forced a retreat from hiking Mt. Whitney. The memory of that violent storm stays with me now and reminds me the JMT is no cakewalk. All this has made me want to do something, to react somehow to all this loss.
So far this is what I have done or am considering.
1. I updated my will and made some changes in my home deed. My plot is bought and all the rest of the stuff is in place from just general past planning.
2. I am almost certain I will now tote a sat phone. I will have a daily check in procedure.
3. I took a GPS course just to check that I am up-to-date. I thought I was going to be in a class with College kids. Instead, everyone was my age. LOL
4. I made 3x5 cards of my daily way-points.
5. I have the Tom Harrison Maps and a real compass in addition to my GPS
6. I have charted out my daily elevation gains each day.
7. I am bringing a barometer and themometer
8. I am careless about my water consumption. I am going to log my water usage each day and review it so I will remind myself to hydrate. I have a separate bottle for my Electro-Mix so that will remind me to take that liter in each day as well.
9. I am standing the extra weight in-step crampons and I am bringing water shoes to help me cross streams. I am following the snow depth reports.
10. I hike solo. I am trying to re-think what that means. I have decided I will likely not try to cross streams without someone around even though it might mean waiting for some time. I probably will visit more with hikers coming from where I am hiking and keep myself more informed on conditions than I have in the past.
11. I am spending $75.00 for rescue insurance. It pays $5,000 for rescue and $2,000 to get your body to an airport. They don't apparently charge for rescues in California but sometimes I am just a belt and suspender guy.
The fundamental change in my thinking is reminding myself that completing the JMT is not a metaphor for my life. If I have to bail, I will do so at the drop of a hat. I have my bail points lined up. Completing the JMT is a matter of probabilities and odds. All I can do is rig the probabilities in my favor. I can't do less.
Regards,
Clark Fork in Western Montana "Where Seldom is Heard a Discouraging Word."
Clark, what type of shelter do you use? Shelter is the MOST important thing, especially in adverse weather conditions.
Clark Fork
06-15-2006, 17:28
Clark, what type of shelter do you use? Shelter is the MOST important thing, especially in adverse weather conditions.
I agree strongly. I have the new Big Sky 1 person double wall tent with carbon poles. It is 2.4 lbs and free standing although I will guy it out and use stakes. When it comes to tents, Y.I.P.E.S, Clark Fork's acronym for Yuppies in Pusuit of Expensive Shelter. The tent, tarp or hammock is turning out to be one of the expensive parts of the hiking package. I looked for a double walled tent that was stand alone, easy to set up and light, light, light. When I graduated from college in 1963, I received one of the first external frame tents, the wonderful Eureka Draw Tite. Years later,it ignominiously washed down in the flood waters of the Arkansas Buffalo River where my son had summer work planting trees. Over the years I have had a Moss Bivy and a one person Wilderness Experience tent. I think tarps and tarptents work well where the ground is soft to allow proper staking. We don't find the soft duff that you find in the east to anchor stakes. I wanted a tent for the long haul and one that I would find comfortable in Glacier Park where the weather is not very forgiving. This seems to fit all my criteria. The price gets up there for the carbon poles which were $75.00 extra. They were a stretch but I liked the idea of saving a few oz. so I would feel less guilty about hauling my JetBoil stove. For now, I will say, this is a good choice and there are some favorable reviews on Backpackgeartest.org. The Evolution 1P was an easy choice. I have had it about two months. Despite the weight, it is not flimsy and seems to offer good protection.
Big Sky International (http://www.bigskyinternational.com/SummitShelters/SummitEvolution1Pdetails.htm)
I am in line for their new 1 person tent that is coming out in a brand new fabric Zsnorkle. The company is concentrating on deliveries and they will not have a prototype for my trip by July. The new tent is really a "Tivy". It has no vestibule, is single wall but has good head room and the side pockets for storage. I got to see the new fabric and this new tent when Bob Molen , the owner was in Missoula. This new fabric is about to stand the industry on its ear. It will make a truly water proof single wall tent possible.
For my other gear, check out:
Clark Fork Journal (http://www.trailjournals.com/ClarkFork/)
Best Regards,
Clark Fork in Western Montana
Hana_Hanger
06-15-2006, 20:46
Wonderful suggestions
and thanks for sharing your journal link with us :)
SGT Rock
06-16-2006, 02:55
Instead of a sat phone, look into a PLB.
troglobil
06-16-2006, 10:04
Ridge, just curious as to why you think knowing the exact cords of his camp is so important. How is knowing the spot a man died going to be any help for anyone else? It is rough country, know what you are doing and where you are. All that you accomplish by making this public info is violating privacy of the man's real family, not the people who have some self concieved notion that they are family because they shared an interest.
I....My larger question is this ... there have been a number of opinions as to why and where, but honestly, what lessons would John want the hiking community to take away from his passing?....
The answer can only be speculation, but I suspect John might say that hikers should be wary of overdoing the advice of ultralight gurus. He obviously didn't have the gear needed to survive under severe conditions.
Safety gear is like seat belts. Most of us older folks drove for years without seatbelts. The fact that some of us are still around confirms that seat belts are needed only rarely. The fact that thousands of others are alive because they wore their seat belts attests that in rare moments it's nice to have all the safety gear in place and able to be used.
The same is true of safety gear on trails during times of severe weather. Many of us have taken foolish risks at times. I certainly have. I was lucky. The storm missed me. My silly tarp in February held up.
Weary
Alligator
06-16-2006, 11:54
There are three pieces of critical information that have not been completely divlulged that would avoid a lot of speculation: his complete gear list, the clothing on his person, and his writings. When you'd feel comfortable asking his remaining family for that information would be a good clue as to when it would be appropriate to get into the nitty gritty of how he died. I suspect that a very respectful request, couched in terms of how it might help other hikers, would be received favorably at some point. Or try law enforcement.
makes you wonder how many more people went that way before they realized they were going the wrong way. Donovan supposedly did it during a storm but couple just took that route by accident.
Shutterbug
06-16-2006, 11:59
Instead of a sat phone, look into a PLB.
I looked into a PLB. I am familiar with them because I carried one as an Air Force pilot. I decided to go with the sat phone.
My reasoning was that I know myself well enough to know that I would never activate the PLB unless I was in a dire circumstance. In fact, I have never been in a circumstance in which I would have used the PLB. I have used the sat phone often.
For example, last year when I was hiking the 100 Mile Wilderness, I met a girl who was almost franic because she was a full day behind schedule. She knew that there was no way she was going to reach Monson at the time she had arranged for her family to meet her. I allowed her to use my sat phone to call her family. In that kind of situation, the PLB would have been useless.
I will be quick to admit that the sat phone has its problems.
First, the one I rent is three times as heavy at the PLB.
Second, for the sat phone to work, one has to have a clear view of the sky. There are many places on the AT where it is impossible to get a connection with a satellite because of the trees. Since the PLB also depends on satellites for gps location and for communication, I assume it will have the same problem.
Come to think of it, since he is a "belt and suspenders" kind of person, he might want to carry both.
Alligator
06-16-2006, 12:06
...
First, the one I rent is three times as heavy at the PLB.
...
Hey, how much does that cost?
Being within a 1/2 mile of Palm Springs, and at the elevations, I believe a cell phone would have worked for Donovan or for the TX couple. Donovan had the means to build a fire, the couple burned acres of woods started from his matches, it saved their life. As far as Donovan's gear, I've read accounts of what he was wearing when last seen, and from people who knew him and his hiking style. The description the couple gave finding his camp along with a tarp. Tarps are great for 2 and sometimes 3 season camping, NOT winter blow-outs, especially the kind the CA mountains can dish out. Again, my interest is the AREA, the actually camp probably could be gotten to by sliding to it, you would probably need climbing gear to get back out. The area, as stated earlier, has to be confusing ie: two lost sets of people in 12 months, only took a day or two for the TX couple to stumble on the camp that searchers had been looking for during the past year.
I don't think any privacy is being invaded, if Donovan's family want to share anything that might keep anyone from meeting the same fate, then I say, thats good.
tlbj6142
06-16-2006, 12:36
I suspect John might say that hikers should be wary of overdoing the advice of ultralight gurus. He obviously didn't have the gear needed to survive under severe conditions. I'm sure he had a brain. That's what was left at home.
I suspect he didn't bring along the knowledge and wisdom required to use the gear he had and understand its limitations.
It is not like the storm just dump X" of snow in 2 seconds and generated a white-out for hours. I'm sure the snow started, he thought he could walk through it. It got worst, he pushes on. He gets lost. He stops. He dies.
Where exactly would gear have helped? Even if you have all the gear in the world, you have to know when to stop and use it.
John Donovan's body found ...
what was his TRAIL NAME????
I think it was "Sea Breeze".
Alligator
06-16-2006, 12:48
...
I don't think any privacy is being invaded, if Donovan's family want to share anything that might keep anyone from meeting the same fate, then I say, thats good.Since your not busy, why don't you give them a call right now. You have a keen interest.
While described as a tarp, it may have been a tarptent. What the people described him wearing will necessarily be hazy. Tell me exactly what the last hiker you saw, not in your party, was wearing? Now what was in their pack?
Yellow Jacket, he was reported as camped for a couple days, from his writings.
One report said Donovan was down to his last crackers. Another says the lost couple found food.
It would make for a very good discussion with a more complete set of facts.
This morning around 7am I passed two hikers, one had on a jogging suit, fit real tight, red bandanna with white markings that tied her long black hair back, white tennis shoes and may I add she had a nice ass. I didn't see the person walking with her.
Alligator
06-16-2006, 13:09
This morning around 7am I passed two hikers, one had on a jogging suit, fit real tight, red bandanna with white markings that tied her long black hair back, white tennis shoes and may I add she had a nice ass. I didn't see the person walking with her.And what did she say, or can't you read...:eek: .
And what did she say, or can't you read...:eek: .
She said, if I see Alligator, tell him to KISS off!!!
Alligator
06-16-2006, 13:51
She said, if I see Alligator, tell him to KISS off!!!Now I see how you knew what she was wearing...Tell your wife she wasn't any good anyway.
Now I see how you knew what she was wearing...Tell your wife she wasn't any good anyway.
She also said to warn you that ALLIGATOR SHOES where coming back in style.
Alligator
06-16-2006, 14:07
Please be kind and use the whole animal. Make sure you eat me too.
............. Make sure you eat me too.
No thanks, Crap content too High, but dogs, especially those obnoxious trail dogs, love it when their food is made from it.
Alligator
06-16-2006, 14:44
You a healthy eater, when you're so FOS:rolleyes: ? Your empty gallery comes to mind.
Ridge, just curious as to why you think knowing the exact cords of his camp is so important. How is knowing the spot a man died going to be any help for anyone else? It is rough country, know what you are doing and where you are. All that you accomplish by making this public info is violating privacy of the man's real family, not the people who have some self concieved notion that they are family because they shared an interest.why the attack? ridge is just letting us know so that if we ever hike that trail we will be aware.....how is that invading someones privacy? get a grip on your attitude........
Hana_Hanger
06-16-2006, 14:47
I use to live in the surrounding area for awhile and a long time local in Big Bear Lake.
On that section of the trail there are so many places can get LOST and confused. Let alone in a bad snowstorm on top of it. The trails are poorly marked (heck they are not marked at all!!!)...there are no shelters every 4 to 12 miles like on the AT. There is rarely any water, let alone water caches placed by trail angels. Until more hikers travel the PCT and more clubs are formed, it will continue to be a trail that one must be very careful on.
I personally think making others aware of this as Ridge did is great!
Maybe someone or some club will MARK that part of Fuller Ridge with a Large SNOW sign showing just which way to go.
I was reading someone's journal (I think it was Squeaky's Journal) who know realizes those footprints they saw going off in that direction must of been SeaBreezes. How thankful he was also that he saw in the snow more footprints ahead of him in that lead him in the right direction that day.
I'm sure he had a brain. That's what was left at home.
.i'm sure you have a brain as well but forgot to include it here in your statement as well............
John Donovan's body found ...
what was his TRAIL NAME????"Sea Breeze"
You a healthy eater, when you're so FOS:rolleyes: ? Your empty gallery comes to mind.i see you two really love each other............
You a healthy eater, when you're so FOS:rolleyes: ? Your empty gallery comes to mind.
Breath deep and look out the window at the green grass....
Relaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaax..... :sun
troglobil
06-16-2006, 15:04
why the attack? ridge is just letting us know so that if we ever hike that trail we will be aware.....how is that invading someones privacy? get a grip on your attitude........
Who's attitude needs checked? Ridge said that knowing the location of his camp would help people, I asked how. Making locations of people deaths, especially macabre ones, known to public often bring out the ghouls, who in turn, add to the distress of the family of the deceased.
Who's attitude needs checked? Ridge said that knowing the location of his camp would help people, I asked how. Making locations of people deaths, especially macabre ones, known to public often bring out the ghouls, who in turn, add to the distress of the family of the deceased.what you say is true, but in this case i disagree........
troglobil
06-16-2006, 15:13
OK then let me ask you. How will knowing the location of the campsite help? Being aware of your surroundings, having the proper gear and knowing how to use it is what keeps a person alive. It doesn't matter where. Or am I missing something?
Breath deep and look out the window at the green grass....
Relaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaax..... :sun
Ok... you can let your breath out now, I you haven't passed out yet. :sun
OK then let me ask you. How will knowing the location of the campsite help? Being aware of your surroundings, having the proper gear and knowing how to use it is what keeps a person alive. It doesn't matter where. Or am I missing something?okay this is the way i see it.....if by chance i know of a trouble area ahead of time then i may just want to watch my step when i get there.......
troglobil
06-16-2006, 15:18
I was under the impression that it was the weather that did him in. I'm sure the conditions were the same for x number of square miles.
OK then let me ask you. How will knowing the location of the campsite help? Being aware of your surroundings, having the proper gear and knowing how to use it is what keeps a person alive. It doesn't matter where. Or am I missing something?
Apparently, he should have used his matches to light the hillside on fire. :p
I was under the impression that it was the weather that did him in. I'm sure the conditions were the same for x number of square miles.i was under the impression that he took a wrong turn, but on the other hand he may just as well died given the conditions...
troglobil
06-16-2006, 15:30
Ok now we are starting to come together. A wrong turn, lost, bad weather, can equal dead. So, be preparedand sit out storms in camp.If you find yourself lost in bad weather, set up camp and wait it out. I still don't see how knowing the location of his camp is helpful (original question). Honest, I am not trying to be difficult, just curious as to Ridge's reason for the statement.
Shutterbug
06-16-2006, 15:34
Hey, how much does that cost?
As I recall, I spent less than $120 for rental and air time for the month I had it. I called home every day, but there were several days that I had cell phone coverage so I ddin't need the sat phone. There were also a few days when I couldn't get a sat phone connection because of trees.
I have used several different phone rental companies over the past five years. I had a quadruple bypass surgery several years ago, so my wife worries when I am on a long hike. It is worth the cost to provide her peace of mind.
To find a sat phone rental company, just type "Satellite Phone Rental" in Google. You will get a list of several. For some reason, most of them seem to be located in Florida.
Ok now we are starting to come together. A wrong turn, lost, bad weather, can equal dead. So, be preparedand sit out storms in camp.If you find yourself lost in bad weather, set up camp and wait it out. I still don't see how knowing the location of his camp is helpful (original question). Honest, I am not trying to be difficult, just curious as to Ridge's reason for the statement.there is no problem with disagreeing with someone, it's just how we word it...........i'm cool with you.........
tlbj6142
06-16-2006, 16:03
i'm sure you have a brain as well but forgot to include it here in your statement as well............What are you talking about?
My point was...
At some point he made a wrong decission (probably more than once) and it cost him his life. It had nothing to do with gear he left at home.
Alligator
06-16-2006, 16:10
Ok... you can let your breath out now, I you haven't passed out yet. :sunIt was a big field I had to go out to the van to get the two chambered b#^g...
Alligator
06-16-2006, 16:12
i see you two really love each other............I like you better stud, hope you're feeling better.
Who's attitude needs checked? Ridge said that knowing the location of his camp would help people, I asked how. Making locations of people deaths, especially macabre ones, known to public often bring out the ghouls, who in turn, add to the distress of the family of the deceased.
If you read all my posts starting say at #18 you'll see that I talk about the AREA this happened, and as I also stated earlier if one could reach his camp, you're going to need climbing gear, or you'll need to set the woods on fire like the TX couple did to get out. So, if nothing else, maybe the coordinates will help you find the place for your next winter outing. And you mentioned the wore "macabre" You make it sound like the site of the Manson Murders.
I like you better stud, hope you're feeling better.thanx, i know one thing this blood sugar is no joke.......took my meds this morning and ate breakfast and two hours later i was sitting on the ground with a blood sugar rating of 55? i don't understand this? i about went out........
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-16-2006, 17:07
::: threadjack :::
Larry, please call your doctor. Some of the meds you are on can cause your blood sugar to fall suddenly and your doc needs to know this is happening to keep you from going out.
::: end of threadjack :::
::: threadjack :::
Larry, please call your doctor. Some of the meds you are on can cause your blood sugar to fall suddenly and your doc needs to know this is happening to keep you from going out.
::: end of threadjack :::i got to get a new doc because this one just doesn't seem to have the time nor could she care less..........i went in there today and they told me that if i didn't start paying on the bill immediately i could hang up any further aid..........the doctor has failed to process the paperwork for medicade as i have found out from the hospital today, so i went in and gave them some money but she still refuses to see me until next month now..........i'm sick as i sit here and type this..........i hope i don't have to return to that nursing home to get the help i need........
Breath deep and look out the window at the green grass....
Relaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaax..... :sun
I spewed coke across the room when I finally got around to reading it, I love it!! I hope the rest of the gang knows you're mocking the gator.
Alligator
06-16-2006, 18:00
I spewed coke across the room when I finally got around to reading it, I love it!! I hope the rest of the gang knows you're mocking the gator.Ridge, that's what's called an inside joke. Austexs and I are on the inside and now you are on the outside.
Ridge, that's what's called an inside joke. Austexs and I are on the inside and now you are on the outside.
Thank you for pointing that out, its good to see your education isn't interfering with your ignorance.
Alligator
06-16-2006, 18:05
Thank you for pointing that out, its good to see your education isn't interfering with your ignorance.Way, way,
way,
way,
outside.
troglobil
06-16-2006, 18:27
If someone out there gets a report, from a more reliable source, telling the exact location of the camp. Please post it here, like I said I pieced this together and it could be wrong. I see no reason not to notify people of the location once the scene has been investigated and the incident wrapped up.
this does not sound like the area to me.
....At some point he made a wrong decission (probably more than once) and it cost him his life. It had nothing to do with gear he left at home.
As I said before, without more information there is no way to conclude that the death "had nothing to do with gear he left at home."
The evidence would suggest otherwise. Are you saying that regardless of emergency equipment carried, no one could have survived that storm in that location? If so what is your evidence for that conclusion?
Presumably other people were in the area during the storm. Only one seems to have died.
None of us can know for sure what happened. But I think it important to suggest the lack of adequate gear may have played a role. A lot of inexperienced people make gear selections based on the new ultralight backpacking fad. Over the decades I've been in many situations where the gear lists I see promoted on White Blaze would be inadequate and possibly life-threatening.
From time to time I say so in hopes that the message may help someone avoid serious injury or death.
Weary
tlbj6142
06-16-2006, 22:14
Presumably other people were in the area during the storm. Only one seems to have died.Right, they made the right choices.
None of us can know for sure what happened. But I think it important to suggest the lack of adequate gear may have played a role.I assume he had a sleeping bag (in the 20-40F range). I assume he had a shelter (sounds like it was a poncho tarp). Sounds like great gear choices for the area during that time of year (I think it was May, correct???).
However, if he had had a 4-season tent with a 0F bag, he could have still died if he lost his tent during a white-out while taking a leak. Bad decission not to tie yourself to the shelter.
Assuming he wasn't injured (which it doesn't seem like he was), he died because he made bad decissions. I am not calling the guy an idiot. But he obviously could have made better choices. I don't think gear was one of them. If he knew the storm was coming and died (using that gear), would you blame the gear? Of course not. Did he have time to "leave the mountain" at first sign of the storm. Probably, but thought he could push through it. Bad choice. When the storm got worst, did he drop to lower elevations? No. Bad choice.
Can we get this somewhat back on track again people.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-17-2006, 00:43
Have they positively ID'ed the remains found? My prayers are with this man's family.
Speculation about the cause of his death is just that - speculation. None of us were there and we likely will never know what happened. Given the circumstances, I believe he likely died of hypothermia. As was discussed very early in this thread, hypothermia causes disorientation, irrational thought processes and inability to realize that you are literally freezing to death. Questioning the actions and intelligence of a man who was very likely experiencing irrational thought processes secondary to hypothermia is poor form. I've experienced mild hypothermia once. It isn't possible to think clearly or to make complex decisions while in that state.
Have they positively ID'ed the remains found? My prayers are with this man's family............
Refer to the link in post #19 page 1 of this thread. Hypothermia probably was the cause of death but cannot be determined due to time and the condition of the remains.
Have they positively ID'ed the remains found? My prayers are with this man's family.
Speculation about the cause of his death is just that - speculation. None of us were there and we likely will never know what happened. Given the circumstances, I believe he likely died of hypothermia. As was discussed very early in this thread, hypothermia causes disorientation, irrational thought processes and inability to realize that you are literally freezing to death. Questioning the actions and intelligence of a man who was very likely experiencing irrational thought processes secondary to hypothermia is poor form. I've experienced mild hypothermia once. It isn't possible to think clearly or to make complex decisions while in that state.well said.............
Here is John's obituary - appeared in the Richmond Times Dispatch yesterday:
Donovan, John Joseph
John Joseph Donovan, 60, of Petersburg, Va., died in May 2005, while hiking the Pacific Crest Trail in Southern California. His remains were recovered June 4, 2006. John was an avid hiker, an active member of the Old Dominion and Tidewater Appalachian Trail Clubs and had just retired from 20 years as a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with Central State Hospital. John served 15 years in the United States Navy and earned B.S. and M.S. degrees in social work at Norfolk State University. He was preceded in death by his mother, Helen F. Donovan; and is survived by his aunt, Catherine F. Barlow; Catherine's five children, and many friends and co-workers. John had a deep faith, a caring heart and will be remembered for his generous laughter. A memorial service and interment will be July 11, 3 p.m., at the Virginia Veterans Cemetery in Amelia, Va. John's friends and family request memorial donations be made to the Riverside Mountain Rescue Unit, 43950 Acacia St., Hemet, Calif. 92544 or to Little Sisters of the Poor, 1503 Michael Rd., Richmond, Va. 23239.
tlbj6142
08-31-2006, 12:45
Reading the most recent BP'er article on the guy. It wasn't his gear. He was a bull-headed idiot. He wasn't "surprised" by the snow/storm as it had already started before he left town. While hiking in the snow he was warned by 4+ people (2 heading back? and 2 more prepared for snow/ice travel) the day he got lost. That later two idicated that he was "ill prepared" for snow/ice travel. He chose to ignore them all.
The guy didn't even have a map or compass and was "known" for getting lost (wonder why?). And always assumed "things would work out". Not this time.
The worst thing about the article was that the 2 people that got lost a year later and found his stuff, "don't believe" Donovan helped/saved them. As "they were already looking for us in the right area." Whatever, ungrateful Frat-boy. The helicopter flew over their first fire (made with Donovan's matches/lighter) and didn't see them. It wasn't until they started a forest fire the next day (with Donovan's matches/lighter) that they were found.
Did Backpacker do an article on John?
tlbj6142
09-01-2006, 10:03
Yes. It is a few pages long (includes some photos of his journal/gear) and well written (well, it is better than most articles in BP'er).
Reading the most recent BP'er article on the guy. It wasn't his gear. He was a bull-headed idiot.
A wee bit harsh Dude. The guy lost his life. At least he wasn't out there hiking a paint by numbers trail. He was livin' it. May he RIP.
Realy you got to chill on the "idiot" thing. We have all made mistakes in the woods. How else would we learn. It's just that our mistakes haven't cost our lives. I know in my account I'm here by dumb luck after being pretty dumb. Peace. J.J.B.
Creek Dancer
09-01-2006, 10:56
Reading the most recent BP'er article on the guy. It wasn't his gear. He was a bull-headed idiot. He wasn't "surprised" by the snow/storm as it had already started before he left town. While hiking in the snow he was warned by 4+ people (2 heading back? and 2 more prepared for snow/ice travel) the day he got lost. That later two idicated that he was "ill prepared" for snow/ice travel. He chose to ignore them all.
The guy didn't even have a map or compass and was "known" for getting lost (wonder why?). And always assumed "things would work out". Not this time.
The worst thing about the article was that the 2 people that got lost a year later and found his stuff, "don't believe" Donovan helped/saved them. As "they were already looking for us in the right area." Whatever, ungrateful Frat-boy. The helicopter flew over their first fire (made with Donovan's matches/lighter) and didn't see them. It wasn't until they started a forest fire the next day (with Donovan's matches/lighter) that they were found.
You read one article about John and proclaim him an idiot! It must be nice for you not to have ever made a mistake.
I knew John through the ODATC. I did not know him well, but I do know many people who were close to John and who love him. John had virtually no blood relatives left - his family was his hiking friends and coworkers. We think that it was these people to whom he wrote his farewell note when he was at the end of his life. John was know for always hiking his own hike and living by his own rules. He was a kind and loving soul, always willing to help out other people. He is terribly missed by all who love him.
SGT Rock
09-01-2006, 11:05
John was know for always hiking his own hike and living by his own rules. He was a kind and loving soul, always willing to help out other people. He is terribly missed by all who love him.
That is about the best thing you can say about any hiker ain't it.
Thanks for sharing Creek Dancer.
There's certainly lessons to be learned in John's death. Regardless of if he was bull-headed or ill-prepared atleast he died doing what he loved.
Having lost his life is tragic, however the fact remains that he did not listen nor heed warnings. How many here are critical when they run into nubes that are ill equipped. It seems to me that JD was a complicated person, giving and caring on one side and ''bull-headed'' and a ''cheapskate'' on the other and they both contributed to his death. He was even warned by his hiking partner not to go so early and he refused to go with him. The PCT is a pretty easy trail to hike but it has a whole different set of challenges, one being the weather. In 05' I picked up the PCT where I left off in 04' at Tuolumne Mea. The ele. was 8500+' I was having problems breathing etc., at 60 years old I used my better judgement and turned back after 14 miles. Was my life in danger? I don't think so but I'm here today to tell about it. Everyone nube or experienced hiker should remember this tragedy and not make the same mistakes.
Just Jeff
09-01-2006, 12:20
Good post, mrc. Even well-loved and caring people can be stupid at times. No matter how experienced John was or what a good person he was, he made a bad decision this time and his decision had consequences. He wasn't just "unlucky" - he made a stupid decision. His responsibility.
I don't think I'd call him a bull-headed idiot for it, though. That was crass.
Reading the most recent BP'er article on the guy. It wasn't his gear. He was a bull-headed idiot. He wasn't "surprised" by the snow/storm as it had already started before he left town. While hiking in the snow he was warned by 4+ people (2 heading back? and 2 more prepared for snow/ice travel) the day he got lost. That later two idicated that he was "ill prepared" for snow/ice travel. He chose to ignore them all.
The guy didn't even have a map or compass and was "known" for getting lost (wonder why?). And always assumed "things would work out". Not this time.
The worst thing about the article was that the 2 people that got lost a year later and found his stuff, "don't believe" Donovan helped/saved them. As "they were already looking for us in the right area." Whatever, ungrateful Frat-boy. The helicopter flew over their first fire (made with Donovan's matches/lighter) and didn't see them. It wasn't until they started a forest fire the next day (with Donovan's matches/lighter) that they were found.
I don't have any objection to most of what you said but idiot... ? The guy is dead. Have some respect!
...and for the two that found his tuff a year to the day later... my oh my how THEIR story has changed!
How soon we forget... :(
You read one article about John and proclaim him an idiot! It must be nice for you not to have ever made a mistake.
I knew John through the ODATC. I did not know him well, but I do know many people who were close to John and who love him. John had virtually no blood relatives left - his family was his hiking friends and coworkers. We think that it was these people to whom he wrote his farewell note when he was at the end of his life. John was know for always hiking his own hike and living by his own rules. He was a kind and loving soul, always willing to help out other people. He is terribly missed by all who love him.
Very well said CD. I was at a lost for words concerning what this individual was saying about John........
JJ, thats the way his friends described him sans "idiot'' of which I didn't use, thats tlbj. I know myself that I can be bullheaded sometimes esp. when it comes to trail challenges but I step back a little and think about those that may risk their lives rescuing me. That always stops me!
Okay John was hard headed. He probably survived more situations that were as severe as what he was in at the time of his death and figured that this too shall pass. He died doing what he loved to do, and for that I have much respect for the man........
Okay John was hard headed. He probably survived more situations that were as severe as what he was in at the time of his death and figured that this too shall pass. He died doing what he loved to do, and for that I have much respect for the man........
Anyone know the cause of death? I can only assume it was hypothermia. what I don't understand is the left over matches. You'd think he'd try to start a fire, if not for heat, as a signal. Lots of unanswered questions. I really wish they'd release his last journal entries.
The one important lesson I see is, in foul weather, to hunker down near the trail and/or stay among others. Another ill-prepared hiker was lost on the PCT during a storm several years ago. He left the his group to bail out and suffered a fatal fall going over New Army Pass
Two Speed
09-01-2006, 13:36
Just speculating here, but hypothermia would neatly explain the left over mateches. Confusion goes hand-in-hand with our old friend hypothermia.
America exists because folks didn't heed warnings. It was dangerous for folks in the East to wagon-train across America to the west. Scores of folks died because they didn't heed warnings while countless others made it. Spaniards didn't think Columbus would make it because they perceived the world to be flat. "You're going to fall off the end of the world"... But he went anyway.
We're a people of exploration. We like to see things beyond the confines of our homes and neighborhoods. For tlbj6142 to proclaim Donovan to be "a bullheaded idiot" is absolutely reprehensible and he owes us a retraction/apology for making such a retarded statement.
Benton MacKaye was called a bullheaded idiot as well, yet here we are, enjoying the fruits of his labor. Nothing worth having has ever been gained without extreme personal sacrifice. At times, those sacrifices include the loss of human life. However, that doesn't stop the indomitable human spirit from continuing onward, striving to go beyond the boundaries.
I'm saddened to learn of Donovan's death. However, his death isn't in vain. It serves as a reminder to us that nothing worth having doesn't come without some cost, and if future hikers aren't careful, and don't learn from his mistakes, then history will repeat itself.
I thank God for all of the "bullheaded idiots" who disregard warnings and go off of the beaten path. If you want pleasure without risks, then stay home.
tlbj6142
09-01-2006, 14:40
The guy was an idiot. That's why he died! All of his "friends" and hiking peers quoted in the article say it, not me. Though they just don't use the word, idiot.
Have any of you actually read the article yet?
Maybe "head strong bumbling fool with a big heart" would have been better?
Have any of you actually read the article yet?
Which article was that?
tlbj6142
09-01-2006, 14:58
In the most recent issue of BP'er. I don't have it with me. It is probably the Oct (?) issue. I just got it earlier this week.
Just Jeff
09-01-2006, 15:03
mrc, I was responding to tlbj with that last statement. Wasn't trying to attribute it to you.
Right, I saw that in your earlier post.
Now you make yourself cular
.................................................. ...............
Have any of you actually read the article yet?
Maybe "head strong bumbling fool with a big heart" would have been better?
Actually, citing the article, recommending ways to avoid John's plight, and avoiding harsh criticism of a deceased person in a VERY public forum would have been better. That is just my humble opinion. There was a very insightful thread about this on Whiteblaze. I believe it was something like "Lessons learned from personal loss"? or something like that?
I was not there and did not know John personaly but neither did 99.99 % of the previous posters so here's my two cents. John may have been a loving and decent human being but IMHO made some extremely poor decisions. Nothing wrong with pushing the envelope a little but to ignore common sense is idiotic. Ask his closest friends who are hurting right now if they think his death served some greater purpose? Fortunately he did not have immediate family who have to spend the rest of their lives wandering what if or could I have done something to prevent this tragic loss.
John was unprepared to climb an 10,000' peak in blizzard conditions. Period. Very few of us are. He just did not have the proper gear or experience. Hiking the AT does not fully prepare you for hiking out west in higher elevations. East coast just has to many bailout options that just don't exist out west. And while I'm a proponent of ultralight hiking their is a decided trade off. You are trading safety for speed. An experienced ultralighter knows and accepts this. Ultralighters can't and shouldn't attempt to hike in conditions that require bomber gear. Common sense dictated waiting out the storm in town. No shame in that. To blindly push on against all logic is neither noble or heroic. The fact that things have always turned out for the best before doesn't mean they always will. I have to feel if he had been carrying a proper tent for the conditions or maps and a compass with basic orienteering skills he would probably be here today. And he died "doing what he loved" is a weak argument at best. He loved to hike and help his fellow man. Not freeze to death alone.
I regret the fact that none of us will ever get the chance to meet John on the trail. He sounds like someone I would have liked to met. Mores the pity.
Ramble~On
09-06-2006, 00:54
Should I die while engaged in an activity that I enjoy such as winter hiking and camping....call me what you will. If there were friends, family or others who had warned me, begged me, or ordered me not to go....
Good for you....very bad for me.
Common sense dictated waiting out the storm in town. No shame in that. .
And with this we should take heed................
Creek Dancer
09-06-2006, 09:40
Actually, citing the article, recommending ways to avoid John's plight, and avoiding harsh criticism of a deceased person in a VERY public forum would have been better. That is just my humble opinion. There was a very insightful thread about this on Whiteblaze. I believe it was something like "Lessons learned from personal loss"? or something like that?
Thank you Ed.
SGT Rock
09-06-2006, 10:03
Hey John pushed past his limits. No one is arguing that. I haven't seen the article myself, but I would have a problem with it if some reporter decided to do more than just write the story up as what it was.
It is hard to find your limits if you always take the easy way. Sometimes you get sick, sometimes you break a leg, sometimes you sleep in a wet bag overnight, and sometimes things go really bad. I don't think he was "ignorant" he just took a risk and this time it went the worst possible way. No problem in learning from the event. But making a judgment about someone and their character based on one event is not a good way to go on such things.
Peace to him and his family.
I agree Sgt Rock, I don't think the mans assassanating the mans character serves any purpose at all.
The point is, are we going to learn from this? I doubt it.
The reason I say this is because anyone who hikes will always do it their way anyway............
tlbj6142
09-06-2006, 12:34
The point is, are we going to learn from this? I doubt it. I've learned quite a bit.
If....
multiple people, including my friends, tell me I'm not prepared for the trip
I don't even take basic backcountry equipment with me
I begin the trip anyway and then realize I'm not prepared and and told so by others who are obviously way more prepared than I am...and I continue (rather than backing out) anyway....
I'm going to be in for some serious hurt for ignoring all of the "warning signs".
Just Jeff
09-06-2006, 13:50
I've learned quite a bit.
If....
multiple people, including my friends, tell me I'm not prepared for the trip
I don't even take basic backcountry equipment with me
I begin the trip anyway and then realize I'm not prepared and and told so by others who are obviously way more prepared than I am...and I continue (rather than backing out) anyway....
I'm going to be in for some serious hurt for ignoring all of the "warning signs".
Hrm. Sounds a lot like the Wright brothers and Christopher Columbus, among others.
How many people worthy of being role models never ignored the warnings of others and pressed the limits?
As a whole, I'd say that overall, we've learned very little. When Justin Miles Kenny, the hiker in Duncannon, was struck by the train and killed, several jumped on the bash wagon to point out the mistakes that were made, with total disregard to the feelings of family and friends. Much to our surprise, Silverlily (Justin's life-partner) came on. Imagine her horror to read some of the terrible things that were said.
When Timothy Treadwell died, it was no different. Some said that he was an idiot who got what he deserved.
Donovan's body was found, and folks have once again jumped on the bash wagon of what should've been done, what THEY would've done, etc..
Surprisingly, nobody's jumped on the bash wagon regarding Steve Irwin.
The one fact that connects all three individuals is the fact that they're all dead. Mistakes or not, they ain't coming back. Mistakes or not, they all leave behind families and friends who loved them and grieve for them.
Please stop playing armchair quarterback and place yourselves in the position(s) of the surviving friends and families, and remember that a life was lost. No amount of criticism, would'ves and should'ves is going to altar that fact.
And there are going to be more deaths to follow these. It's inevitable. If we were less critical and more human, perhaps we'd get along better as a hiking community/family.
-Scott
Hrm. Sounds a lot like the Wright brothers and Christopher Columbus, among others.
How many people worthy of being role models never ignored the warnings of others and pressed the limits?
JJ:
If you lived in Columbus, Ohio - you too would have a lot of time on your hands to second guess other folks. :rolleyes:
Speaking for myself - "He Played It Safe" - are 4 words that will definitely not be written on my headstone.
RIP John Donovan.
As a whole, I'd say that overall, we've learned very little. When Justin Miles Kenny, the hiker in Duncannon, was struck by the train and killed, several jumped on the bash wagon to point out the mistakes that were made, with total disregard to the feelings of family and friends. Much to our surprise, Silverlily (Justin's life-partner) came on. Imagine her horror to read some of the terrible things that were said.
When Timothy Treadwell died, it was no different. Some said that he was an idiot who got what he deserved.
Donovan's body was found, and folks have once again jumped on the bash wagon of what should've been done, what THEY would've done, etc..
Surprisingly, nobody's jumped on the bash wagon regarding Steve Irwin.
The one fact that connects all three individuals is the fact that they're all dead. Mistakes or not, they ain't coming back. Mistakes or not, they all leave behind families and friends who loved them and grieve for them.
Please stop playing armchair quarterback and place yourselves in the position(s) of the surviving friends and families, and remember that a life was lost. No amount of criticism, would'ves and should'ves is going to altar that fact.
And there are going to be more deaths to follow these. It's inevitable. If we were less critical and more human, perhaps we'd get along better as a hiking community/family.
-Scott
Escellent Post! The fact remains that we are all going to die somewhere and I would like to go doing something I love to do. More than likely sitting at a computer writing a story or commenting on something here at whiteblaze.
I'll probably get bashed for it too.....
SGT Rock
09-06-2006, 14:49
BTW, if I die like this or in some other backpacking related way - please discuss it at length. figure out where I screwed up and how to avoid it. Just don't then make the leap that I have some character flaw. It won't bother me one bit if you talk about me after I am dead.
Alligator
09-06-2006, 15:05
That SGT Rock, I always knew the water was gonna kill him, but no, he wouldn't listen. If he'd a had a filter, he wouldna been leanin' over the falls like that. Shoot, if he wasn't such a gram weenie, he might've had a Therm-a-rest and stood half a chance...
SGT Rock
09-06-2006, 15:07
LOL, I knew that was going to come up. Actually I think I would laugh as I died thinking of the irony ;)
That SGT Rock, I always knew the water was gonna kill him, but no, he wouldn't listen.
RIP SGT Rock. Shat his brains out on the BMT (Bowel Movement Trail). :eek:
the goat
09-06-2006, 16:05
RIP SGT Rock. Shat his brains out on the BMT (Bowel Movement Trail). :eek:
as long as he dug a cathole, i won't talk any ***** about him.:D
And I told Sgt Rock that he was shooting that slingshot backwards, he just would not listen..........Common sense? You would have thought he would have listened to me.........
SGT Rock
09-06-2006, 16:38
Hah! You guys are my kind of people! If you cannot take **** off your friends you will be a grumpy SOB all your life. :D
NO SNIVELING! HUAH! :cool:
tlbj6142
09-06-2006, 16:52
I knew minutes after I hit submit that I would get this sort of response. I just haven't been able to articulate my thoughts correctly. Though using the fact I'm from Columbus does seem a bit odd. Maybe if I were from CA, NY, WY or CO we wouldn't have this discussion? I think not.
Back on topic, Prozac's response is dead-on, so I'm not alone with where I stand. But I believe I have finally figured out why calling him an idiot is such a big deal. In short, because he died.
If John had done the same thing, but was found in a week and ended up losing a couple of toes and part of his ear to frostbite, many of us would happily call him an idiot without regrets. Though, honestly, we'd probably never even talk about him, as the press (both real and on-line rumor style) would have dismissed the story rather quickly.
However, because John died doing something we all love to do he instantly became a martyr to many of us. Forcing many to defend his actions as we would expect others to do for this hobby we love.
Assuming the article in BP'er isn't filled with lies, half-truths and miss-quotes and despite the fact John died a thru-hiker/backpacker, he still died showing a complete lack of thought or common sense. Which from my high throne in Columbus, Ohio makes him an idiot, not a martyr.
I just haven't been able to articulate my thoughts correctly.
Very good point! Thanks for sharing though.
Just Jeff
09-06-2006, 17:01
But I believe I have finally figured out why calling him an idiot is such a big deal. In short, because he died.
Nope. It's b/c namecalling is rude and immature and doesn't serve to make a point...other than that you're mature enough to call names.
tlbj6142
09-06-2006, 17:32
So, if I were to described John's actions as showing a complete lack of thought or common sense rather than as idiotic we wouldn't be having this discussion?
So, if I were to described John's actions as showing a complete lack of thought or common sense rather than as idiotic we wouldn't be having this discussion?
Maybe - if you were his hiking partner. Not just a subscriber to Backpacker Magazine.
Well, I also think John wasn't properly prepared and used poor judgement, which is the point tlbj is trying to make..
Well, I also think John wasn't properly prepared and used poor judgement, which is the point tlbj is trying to make..
I'm not what you'd call "politically correct", but I try not to go around labeling folks who died tragically "idiots." One can think or say Donovan was improperly prepared and used poor judgement without stooping to call him names or label him an idiot. That's the point Mowgli is trying to make.
Well, I also think John wasn't properly prepared and used poor judgement, which is the point tlbj is trying to make..
I've been hearing someones going to die ever since the ultralight thing got marketed to the masses as intelligent and macho.:(
Johns death was an unfortunate example of someone getting caught in that trap, perhaps.:confused:
From what I've gathered, he underestimated in all the wrong places.:(
We would all be a little wiser to remember and learn from John Donovan.:sun
Shutterbug
09-07-2006, 02:00
I knew minutes after I hit submit that I would get this sort of response. I just haven't been able to articulate my thoughts correctly. Though using the fact I'm from Columbus does seem a bit odd. Maybe if I were from CA, NY, WY or CO we wouldn't have this discussion? I think not.
Back on topic, Prozac's response is dead-on, so I'm not alone with where I stand. But I believe I have finally figured out why calling him an idiot is such a big deal. In short, because he died.
If John had done the same thing, but was found in a week and ended up losing a couple of toes and part of his ear to frostbite, many of us would happily call him an idiot without regrets. Though, honestly, we'd probably never even talk about him, as the press (both real and on-line rumor style) would have dismissed the story rather quickly.
However, because John died doing something we all love to do he instantly became a martyr to many of us. Forcing many to defend his actions as we would expect others to do for this hobby we love.
Assuming the article in BP'er isn't filled with lies, half-truths and miss-quotes and despite the fact John died a thru-hiker/backpacker, he still died showing a complete lack of thought or common sense. Which from my high throne in Columbus, Ohio makes him an idiot, not a martyr.
I still don't think you understand why many of us object to John being called an "idiot." It is an inappropriate label.
An "idiot" is one who fails to meet his objectives because of a lack of adquate decision making ability. That clearly doesn't apply to John.
It is a simple fact of life that many of us take risks because taking risk provides spice to our lives. If our only objective is to live a long life, we will stay home and do our exercise in a gym. But, our only objective isn't to live a long life. Our objective is to live a life filled with exciting experiences. To keep that excitment in our lives, we take risks. If one of those risks means that we die earlier than we would if we chose to live safe lives, it doesn't mean that we were an idiot. It means we pushed the limits too far.
To give a personal example, I recently visited Africa. I was given an oppportunity to pet an adult Cheeta. My wife and I got a real thrill from petting the Cheeta. When we did it, we knew that Cheeta's sometimes attack humans. We fully understood the risk and decided to take it. If we had been attacked, it wouldn't have been because we were "idiots." I would have been because we pressed the limits.
I am not at all uncomfortable with saying that John pressed the limits too far. That doesn't make him an "idiot."
but I step back a little and think about those that may risk their lives rescuing me. That always stops me!
REMEMBER THAT ALL OF YOU!
You not only risk your life - you risk the lives of others.
How many rescuers have to die to save your life?
So please think twice.
John Donovan saved others in his life & in his death.
So it wasn't a waste of life.
Donovan hiked HIS own hike, not yours or not mine.
has anyone else read the article? I will pick this copy up but in the mean time can someone else tell what they read
REMEMBER THAT ALL OF YOU!
You not only risk your life - you risk the lives of others.
How many rescuers have to die to save your life?
So please think twice.
John Donovan saved others in his life & in his death.
So it wasn't a waste of life.
Donovan hiked HIS own hike, not yours or not mine.
You don't see the contradiction? John's lack of preparedness led to his search by hundreds risking their liives.
If I go missing, don't bother looking.
lwagner26
02-14-2011, 12:29
You and everyone who reads this needs to go to the show I SHOULDNT BE ALIVE and go to episode date from hell you will be shocked that it is related to this mans story. Its crazy!!!! Let me know what u think about this story it touched me I know it will touch u. You can watch it online.
Buffalo Skipper
02-14-2011, 15:09
You and everyone who reads this needs to go to the show I SHOULDNT BE ALIVE and go to episode date from hell you will be shocked that it is related to this mans story. Its crazy!!!! Let me know what u think about this story it touched me I know it will touch u. You can watch it online.
I saw the I Shouldn't Be Alive episode some months ago. The story focused on the lost hikers who found his campsite. A couple of points about this is that this are is so remote that it was impossible to hike out (box canyon with cliffs on either end of the stream or something like that). The hikers got lost and lost their footing and tumbled down an area they could not again traverse (backtrack). There were excerpts from John which, if I recall, were writtn on his maps about how there was no way out. It talked about how John was injured and could not get out. I kind of remember that his remains were found by a stream. The show did not portray John in any way ill, and in fact suggested that he was a capeable and knowledgeable outdoorsman.
I have no idea how much of the story was "fictionalized," and I wouldn't want to speculate further. It would be interesting to see the episode again with this the info presented about John in this thread.
Ann Daniel
09-27-2011, 01:21
I saw the I Shouldn't Be Alive episode some months ago. The story focused on the lost hikers who found his campsite. A couple of points about this is that this are is so remote that it was impossible to hike out (box canyon with cliffs on either end of the stream or something like that). The hikers got lost and lost their footing and tumbled down an area they could not again traverse (backtrack). There were excerpts from John which, if I recall, were writtn on his maps about how there was no way out. It talked about how John was injured and could not get out. I kind of remember that his remains were found by a stream. The show did not portray John in any way ill, and in fact suggested that he was a capeable and knowledgeable outdoorsman.
I have no idea how much of the story was "fictionalized," and I wouldn't want to speculate further. It would be interesting to see the episode again with this the info presented about John in this thread.they just aired that episode about the couple that found john which is why I looked up his name and found this thread. For those of you clling him an idiot U should all be ashamed. A man passed away doing what he loved to do. I only hope I go the same way.
Wheels1974
12-17-2011, 06:35
Having lost his life is tragic, however the fact remains that he did not listen nor heed warnings. How many here are critical when they run into nubes that are ill equipped. It seems to me that JD was a complicated person, giving and caring on one side and ''bull-headed'' and a ''cheapskate'' on the other and they both contributed to his death. He was even warned by his hiking partner not to go so early and he refused to go with him. The PCT is a pretty easy trail to hike but it has a whole different set of challenges, one being the weather. In 05' I picked up the PCT where I left off in 04' at Tuolumne Mea. The ele. was 8500+' I was having problems breathing etc., at 60 years old I used my better judgement and turned back after 14 miles. Was my life in danger? I don't think so but I'm here today to tell about it. Everyone nube or experienced hiker should remember this tragedy and not make the same mistakes.
I just watched "I shouldn't be alive" and thought I would do a little research. I am disgraced as a human being to hear what some of you people can say about a person who perished doing what he loved best in life.
For you to speculate and say such things as: "It seems to me that JD was a complicated person, giving and caring on one side and ''bull-headed'' and a ''cheapskate'' on the other and they both contributed to his death."
Just because you read all this stuff online, at the end of the day its nothing but hearsay. However in saying that, hypothetically speaking, lets just say everything you mentioned about John Donovan was true. It still gives you no right to speculate regardless whether its TRUE or FALSE, when the man himself is not here to defend himself. It's no different then shooting someone in the back.
I have read quite a lot on John Donovan, whether its true or not I have no idea. I read that his father left him when he was a infant, his mother died before he was 10 years of age and John had no siblings. He also spent most of his life as a child in and out of different orphanages.
I also read that he had done many beautiful things for those who were less fortunate. I read that he done a great deal for those who suffered with physical and mental disabilities.
So before saying something as low as: "It seems to me that JD was a complicated person, giving and caring on one side and ''bull-headed'' and a ''cheapskate'' on the other and they both contributed to his death."
It might be worth a thought that other things could have contributed to his death very early in his life. Who knows what it would be like to have no parents and going from orphanage to orphanage. All these things that happened to him while he was a child would have more then likely had a phenomenal effect on why he could have been a "complicated person" and being "bull-headed"
If only 20% of what I read about John Donovan was true regarding his childhood life. Then that alone would make one think, that he would of found it very hard to TRUST people in life. That's the first thing that came to my mind NOT "It seems to me that JD was a complicated person, giving and caring on one side and ''bull-headed'' and a ''cheapskate'' on the other and they both contributed to his death."
At the end of the day, John Donovan is not here to defend himself. If you don't have anything nice to say then it's best to say nothing at all. Have a great Christmas and above all a safe 2012.
If only 20% of what I read about John Donovan was true regarding his childhood life. Then that alone would make one think, that he would of found it very hard to TRUST people in life. That's the first thing that came to my mind NOT "It seems to me that JD was a complicated person, giving and caring on one side and ''bull-headed'' and a ''cheapskate'' on the other and they both contributed to his death."
At the end of the day, John Donovan is not here to defend himself. If you don't have anything nice to say then it's best to say nothing at all. Have a great Christmas and above all a safe 2012.
He's not here to defend himself why? Whether John trusted others or not isn't being discussed, his trail savvy and judgement that led to his demise is, or was several years ago.
Nitrojoe
12-17-2011, 20:53
In 2007 I was preparing for my 2008 PCT thru hike and I recall reading an artical about John Donovan in the Backpacker magizine. John had a hiking partner that backed out of climbing up mount San Jacinto because of the bad weather. While he was up there alone he ran into a mother and son shooting photography and the weather was getting worse. The mother and son headed down but John continued on. As I can recall now from the article, he mistaken the far away glow of lights from Palm Springs and headed in that direction. When I got to that area in 2008 the trail was closed from the Pines to Palm hwy to the 10 hwy because of the fires. I did finally make up that section in 2009. When the PCTers do that section it is a very dangerous area and hikers have a ruff time there because of the snow and icey conditions at 8000 feet.
Wise Old Owl
12-17-2011, 22:11
Welcome Ann Daniel and Wheels, Yes I too watched "I Shouldn't be Alive" re run's a year ago and the show is very well done. There are many articles on Backpacker about John, But there are a lot of hiking professionals here at WB, from all walks of life. And after reading what is written in Backpacker.... One wonders Ann Daniel - How would you define a hard headed idiot?
From Backpacker
Lost & Found John Donovan disappeared in a high-elevation blizzard, leaving rescuers and friends stumped. His backpack contained a miracle clue. Bill Donahue investigates.
No one will ever be sure how John Donovan spent his last days on earth. What is nearly certain is that on May 6, 2005, as a blizzard dumped 8 inches of snow on Southern California's Mt. San Jacinto, Donovan was trapped on the flanks of the 10,834-foot peak under an ocean of blinding whiteness.
At the time, he was just 5 days shy of his 60th birthday. He had an enlarged heart, which made breathing–and often even thinking clearly–difficult at altitude. He was lost and alone. A veteran hiker who was nonetheless a notoriously bad navigator, Donovan had strayed from the Pacific Crest Trail, which he was thru-hiking. He carried no useful maps, nor a compass. He was traveling ultralight, using a tarp in lieu of a tent and socks in place of gloves, and he had few provisions. And he'd headed into the storm against the advice of altitude-savvy backpackers.
Anyone who knew Donovan would have cringed to see him in this predicament–and yet they wouldn't have been terribly surprised. Donovan, stubborn and headstrong, had spent his life confounding others with what appeared at times to be contradictory behaviors.
To those who didn't know him, Donovan often seemed gruff and ill-mannered. He swore like a sailor and burst into laughter at awkward moments. He never married, or even dated, and though he had earned a decent salary before retiring from his job as a social worker, he lived like a bum. He inhabited a succession of ravaged $300-a-month dwellings, including an abandoned, partially incinerated savings bank that had no heat. He never had a telephone, and he eschewed computers and cars, choosing instead to walk almost everywhere he went. And he was famously cheap; he never sprang for a restaurant tab.
In retrospect they died what they wanted to do most.....
On August 12, 1992, McCandless wrote what are apparently his final words in his journal: "Beautiful Blueberries."
He tore the final page from Louis L'Amour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_L'Amour)'s memoir, Education of a Wandering Man, which contains an excerpt from a Robinson Jeffers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinson_Jeffers) poem titled "Wise Men in Their Bad Hours":
Death's a fierce meadowlark: but to die having madeSomething more equal to centuriesThan muscle and bone, is mostly to shed weakness.The mountains are dead stone, the peopleAdmire or hate their stature, their insolent quietness,The mountains are not softened or troubledAnd a few dead men's thoughts have the same temper. On the other side of the page, McCandless added, "I HAVE HAD A HAPPY LIFE AND THANK THE LORD. GOODBYE AND MAY GOD BLESS ALL!"
Wise Old Owl
12-19-2011, 17:32
And once again a thread like this will sink to the bottom until the next rerun......
I know people who hiked the PCT the same year John Donovan did and who met the guy. I also have hike extensively in that area in different conditions including my own PCT thru-hike when it was covered in snow. A few days ago, I typed a long response up to the new posts above but thought better then posting it. After all, its been said several times already so whats the point in getting into it with some people who only registered to rant and who will never visit us again to read the responses. Instead of doing research on John Donovan's life, they should research alpine safety becauses the federal wilderness area and the State Park area around San Jacinto are just that: an alpine wilderness where much of it located between 8000-10800 ft where you don't play in the weather unless you are fully prepared for it. I wish people would be required to have posted more then 5 times were the only ones that could respond to certain topics.
Wise Old Owl
12-20-2011, 22:51
interesting take - I am the same page as you Miner. The topper is that these names fill the data base and will never be available again.