View Full Version : Alcohol Stove in cold weather?!?!
sirbingo
08-14-2006, 11:19
What's up Alcohol stove users,
What do you guys do when the weather starts turning cool?
I've noticed that if the ground is cold I need to put my stove on an insulating surface....and this is in the summer.
What happens when the temps start dropping into fall range?
Is winter cooking even possible?
Footslogger
08-14-2006, 11:42
I do 2 things different with my alcohol stove when the temps start to drop.
I keep my Trangia burner and the fuel bottle (booze flask) in my pocket while walking around camp and in my sleeping bag at night.
Second thing is that I fold a piece of heavy duty aluminum foil up in my cookpot and put it on the ground under my pot stand when I'm ready to cook a meal.
Have not had any problems yet. That said ...I don't do a lot of extreme cold weather backpacking anymore but the above approach has worked well down into the 20's temperature-wise.
'Slogger
in cold weather:
1.) light the burner with a match, touching the flame to the surface of the alcohol - don't just toss the match in the alcohol bu hold it at the surface of the alcohol
2.) use something to insulate the bottom of the burner from the ground - for example a piece of foil wrapped CCF or cardboard
3.) expect to use more alcohol
4.) if possible use a tight fitting insulated lid to your pot
saimyoji
08-14-2006, 12:26
You can also try using a primer pan. When I experimented with alcohol last fall I needed to use a primer pan. Easy enough, just rig a small pan of al foil under your stove, add a little alcohol, light it up.
hammock engineer
08-14-2006, 12:35
I am also wondering about alcohol stoves in the winter. I am planning on hitting the LT in October. By the end I could be getting into some could temps. I like the weight saving of alcohol (about a pound over my MSR setup), but I like the speed and dependablity of the white gas. I think I could light the MSR stove at 50 below in a blizzard and boil water in minutes.
In the end I might start with the alcohol and switch as it gets colder. Or I may have picked up a partner to share the weight of the MSR.
Any thoughts or suggestions? I haven't had the chance to do any cold weather alcohol tests and would rather not go with anything untested.
Tipi Walter
08-14-2006, 13:38
I am also wondering about alcohol stoves in the winter. I am planning on hitting the LT in October. By the end I could be getting into some could temps. I like the weight saving of alcohol (about a pound over my MSR setup), but I like the speed and dependablity of the white gas. I think I could light the MSR stove at 50 below in a blizzard and boil water in minutes.
In the end I might start with the alcohol and switch as it gets colder. Or I may have picked up a partner to share the weight of the MSR.
Any thoughts or suggestions? I haven't had the chance to do any cold weather alcohol tests and would rather not go with anything untested.
Stick with the white gas.
Dances with Mice
08-14-2006, 14:21
What's up Alcohol stove users, ... What happens when the temps start dropping into fall range? Is winter cooking even possible?The Iditarod (http://www.iditarod.com/) dog sled race is held in early March in Alaska. It gets cold (http://www.adn.com/iditarod/history/25/story/761876p-814694c.html) there. Racers need to heat 4 gallons of snow (http://www.ultimateiditarod.com/sledcargo.htm)at a time, sometimes in blizzard conditions. They used to use white gas (http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF16/1634.html)but not anymore.
Now all racers use the same type of stove. (http://www.ultimateiditarod.com/musherfood.htm) Their stoves are bigger than a backpacker's, but it's the same basic design.
hammock engineer
08-14-2006, 14:45
The Iditarod (http://www.iditarod.com/) dog sled race is held in early March in Alaska. It gets cold (http://www.adn.com/iditarod/history/25/story/761876p-814694c.html) there. Racers need to heat 4 gallons of snow (http://www.ultimateiditarod.com/sledcargo.htm)at a time, sometimes in blizzard conditions. They used to use white gas (http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF16/1634.html)but not anymore.
Now all racers use the same type of stove. (http://www.ultimateiditarod.com/musherfood.htm) Their stoves are bigger than a backpacker's, but it's the same basic design.
Interesting. Thinks for the links. My biggest concern is using something untested in the weather I might encounter. Maybe I will rig up an experiment involving a small area with a lot of ice around. (Reading that just screams engineer)
Dances with Mice
08-14-2006, 15:21
Maybe I will rig up an experiment involving a small area with a lot of ice around. (Reading that just screams engineer)It also gets cold in Sweden (http://www.factsurplus.co.uk/10430.html), doesn't it?
Someone not long ago on W-B posted a photo of their alcohol stove frozen into a block of ice. It was working.
Mr. Clean
08-14-2006, 16:47
I have filled my pepsi can stove and held a lighter to the bottom for 30 seconds. This is enough to get the temp up so it will light. Hold it at arms length incase the fumes inside catch while "priming" it.
I use a priming pan. A aluminum cat food can cut to about 1/4 height. As I usually cook in a shelter, I set up on a handy table & have yet to have a problem. I do as many do & pre warm the stove, as I use a V8 stove (very small) I can hold it entirely in my hand thus warming the stove, while I'm doing this I tuck the (1st) fuel injector (I fill my stove with a 10cc syringe, 3 = 1 OZ) under an armpit. then I quickly fill the stove w 3 syringes full & light. As long as I use a wind screen, no problems. Don't think that I have any more trouble than with the many gasoline stoves I have used, never did a side-by-side test tho.
Doctari.
The Solemates
08-14-2006, 18:36
Someone not long ago on W-B posted a photo of their alcohol stove frozen into a block of ice. It was working.
thats only 32F. not that cold.
Dances with Mice
08-14-2006, 18:44
thats only 32F. not that cold.It's a maximum of 32F. It can be colder. My kitchen freezer's set at 0 F, also the temperature of the ice inside.
saimyoji
08-14-2006, 20:28
It also gets cold in Sweden (http://www.factsurplus.co.uk/10430.html), doesn't it?
Someone not long ago on W-B posted a photo of their alcohol stove frozen into a block of ice. It was working.
Link!?....
hammock engineer
08-14-2006, 20:38
I have been thinking about this a little bit. What I have been reading basically says that the alcohol stove should light as long as you preheat the alcohol and the stove in some way. The only other factor is air temp.
What is the coldest people have actually personally used their's? Please list the style of stove used along with this.
Dances with Mice
08-14-2006, 21:43
Link!?....My mistake - it wasn't on Whiteblaze but on dla's website (http://mysite.verizon.net/restoq6v/index.html)(he provided the link in another thread)
hopefulhiker
08-14-2006, 21:46
I used Sgt Rocks Ion stove in Maine last year below freezing. probably in the middle 20's. It was sleeting. I just squirted alcohol all over the stove with a piece of tinfoil under it. This wasted a little fuel but heated the stove up to light the cup. Temperature is not as much a factor as with the cannister stoves.. On a trip 30 years ago I used to sleep with the old SVEA stove to warm it up before breakfast...
hammock engineer
08-14-2006, 21:56
Thanks for all of the input. I think I am going to use the alcohol stove more before my trip to get confident in using it. This winter I will have to try it out in the colder temps.
FWIW: There were several alcohol stoves and some canester stoves on the Hammock hangers outing on Mt Rogers last weekend, no one complained of them not working. Breakfast & dinner times were below 30 degrees every time someone cooked. I heard no complaints of "My stove isn't working".
What I did different: instead of 1 Oz fuel, I used 1.33 Oz. In hindsight, I don't think I needed to do that, but I did.
Lighting a full stove usually takes about 0.25 seconds, in the cold it took about 1.5 seconds of holding a lighter to the fuel, but after that I had no difficulties.
Notes: A wind screen is VITAL. Using your sit pad as an extra wind screen is a good idea, provided it's far enough from the stove it don't catch fire. Finding a sheltered area in addition to the wind screens is also good.
I use a syringe to fill my stove (1/3 Oz syringe, x 3 fills = 1 Oz) so I can, when I remember to, hold the last "dose" of fuel in my hand easily, until it warms up a bit. I did that once (of 3 times) last weekend, it seemed to make a difference in starting the stove.
Doctari.
sirbingo
02-01-2007, 10:18
As an update to this thread started by me almost a year ago....
I never have problems getting my supercat to work in the cold.
As long as the bottom is insulated (I have a small disk of wood wrapped in tinfoil) and use a little more Alcohol, the water boil just fine. Takes a little more time to come to a boil though.
Trangia works great in cold weather. I have used it well below freezing and as high as 13,000+ feet. Its quite similar to me in both of those instances-takes a little while longer to get going but once warmed up & lit, functions great.:D
I would not suggest one purchase a Trangia of Swedish military surplus, shown on link above, unless its for home or car camping as it is quite a bit larger and heavier than the civilian variant. If you are unsure of which you have, just count your holes. If you have 23, you have the heavy one. If you have 24, you have the lighter one "designed for the lightweight backpacker in mind". (my parenthesis)
Plus it is a proven fuel miser and stores ~ 4 fl ounces or ~3 1/4 weight ounces of alcohol inside it so, for a long weekend's use you don't even have to take a separate container of fuel. In fact, if you take it on a long distance hike, you only need another 8 fl oz container and can cook twice a day for one and go 8-11 days. Imagine that!
Here are some photos of the "StarLyte" in frigid temps (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/starlyte049.jpg)
Had to use nichrome wire on top of the burner (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/starlyte053.jpg)to see where the flames were.
Thermometer shows temperature. Yesiree, 6 degrees, Brrrrr thats cold
Alcohol burns well in cold weather, but you need a wick to help it along to get started. Awhile back there was a post about a guy that ws interviewed on backpackinglight I think that is were it was. He used one of his dogs booties as a wick in his stove. He does the Iditerod thingy. When I find the post I'll post it here.
I'll post something else tomorrow that shows an ion with and without a wick at 10 degrees being tested to see how alcohol burns in cold temps. The wick makes a difference.
Fiberglass inside the double wall of popcan stoves is a deterent not a help, it slows down the evaporation, it's being choked:eek: thats why they require bigtime primer pans:eek: Wickatise your pop can stoves :banana
I've frozen my Trangia burner, full of SLX, in a block of ice so that only the lid was clear of the ice. The ice was 10*f (yes ice will go colder than 32*f), which means the alcohol was 10*f. Unscrewed the lid and lit by touching the fuel with the match. It ran at about 30% full output until it melted enough ice to form a layer of water around it at which point it ran at about 70% full output. I don't think I'll ever need to cook a meal with my stove encased in ice, but if I do I know the Trangia is up to the task. :)
[quote=zelph;314475]
Alcohol burns well in cold weather, but you need a wick to help it along to get started. Awhile back there was a post about a guy that ws interviewed on backpackinglight I think that is were it was. He used one of his dogs booties as a wick in his stove. He does the Iditerod thingy. When I find the post I'll post it here.[quote]
I found it, an interview "Not Your Ordinary Lightweight Backpacker" found it on Backpackinglight.com.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00031.html
Here is the jist of it and I quote:
"It’s a stove just right for me and three dogs, a small version of the stove a musher with a full team would use. I made it from two pots, one fitting inside the other with just a bit of clearance on the sides so it can heat on the sides as well as the bottom. The inner pot sits on rods inserted through the outer pot. The burner is a coffee can cut down and placed under the inner pot. An old dog bootie serves as a wick (one per cooking) and alcohol is the fuel."
Big Dawg
02-01-2007, 20:37
Fiberglass inside the double wall of popcan stoves is a deterent not a help, it slows down the evaporation, it's being choked:eek: thats why they require bigtime primer pans:eek: Wickatise your pop can stoves :banana
I didn't realize this. I have fiberglass (the pink stuff) in my mini-pop can stove. You say a wick will work better. Should I put the wick in the same place--- inner wall? What's the best wick to use,,, size, type, etc? Is it found in hardware stores,,, if not, where can I buy it? Thanks!
I didn't realize this. I have fiberglass (the pink stuff) in my mini-pop can stove. You say a wick will work better. Should I put the wick in the same place--- inner wall? What's the best wick to use,,, size, type, etc? Is it found in hardware stores,,, if not, where can I buy it? Thanks!
Don't put it in the inner wall, put it in the center, one wrap/layer around the center wall. Let it stick up 1/8 of an inch higher than the surface of the can. The wick will bring the fuel right up to the top of the wick and produce btu's right now and will keep a ring of flame on the can surface to quickly heat the can to start the fuel to vaporising in the inner wall section to push it out the gas jets.
If i can find my popcan stove I will take a photo to show what I'm talking about. Maybe tomorrow I'll post the photo.
Give me your mailing address in a PM and I will send you the fiberglass cloth to wickatise your burner and then some.
Big Dawg
02-01-2007, 23:06
Thanks Zelph! I'll look out for the photo of the wickatised pop can stove. I just sent you my addy via PM. Thanks again!!!! :D
Rebel, with a Cause!
02-02-2007, 15:10
I am using the Caldera Cone alcohol stove designed to fit a Snow Peak 1400 TI Pot. It is sold by Traildesigns.com
Link: http://traildesigns.com/
They will build you a stove and windscreen for the pot of your choice.
Trail Designs has developed a cone and stove system that is tuned to specific pots to create the most efficient alcohol stove system. By completely enclosing the pot and stove within the Caldera Cone, and fine tuning the alcohol stove (included) to work in that environment, they are now able to milk every last BTU out of your fuel and funnel it onto all sides of your pot. Not only does the cone system optimize your fuel usage, it will also eliminate the need for a pot stand by supporting the pot from the top of the cone.....and its wide base provides the most stable system on the market. And if that weren't enough, by totaly enclosing the pot and stove, nothing performs better in the wind. Period. The Caldera Cone unfolds to pack flat or you can roll it up for easy storage.
Yesterday I tested the Calders Cone using 20 ML of alcohol in 30 degree temps, with a slight wind. It boiled 2 cups ( 16 oz ) of water in 5 minutes. The stove then continued to burn until 9 minutes total time. This was a Rolling boil. Yes and this was with just over 1/2 oz of alcohol. The wind did not affect the stove at all. So with 8 oz of alcohol ( .250 liter ), this is 12 uses of the stove.
Cold weather, here I come :)
Don't put it in the inner wall, put it in the center, one wrap/layer around the center wall. Let it stick up 1/8 of an inch higher than the surface of the can. The wick will bring the fuel right up to the top of the wick and produce btu's right now and will keep a ring of flame on the can surface to quickly heat the can to start the fuel to vaporising in the inner wall section to push it out the gas jets.
If i can find my popcan stove I will take a photo to show what I'm talking about. Maybe tomorrow I'll post the photo.
Give me your mailing address in a PM and I will send you the fiberglass cloth to wickatise your burner and then some.
I'm back with the photos:
I did'nt find my pop can stove so I made a quick incomplete one to show principle of using wick.
First photo shows rotory cutter (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/coldalchy001.jpg)used to cut cloth and shows wick sticking up 1/8 inch.
Second photo (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/coldalchy002.jpg)shows wick up
Third photo shows (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/coldalchy008.jpg)how wick provides even flame all around opening thus providing even and max heat to metal of stove.
Fourth photo shows (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/coldalchy011.jpg)stove without wick. Notice uneven flame. No flame touching right side of opening.
I hope this shows how beneficial wicks are to a stove in cold weather.
This weekend it's going to be below zero here in Northern Illinois Brrrrr. I'll do some test outside while you all are watching the Bears win the Super Bowl :banana
Here: read this again : http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...ght/00031.html (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00031.html)
Here is the jist of it and I quote:
"It’s a stove just right for me and three dogs, a small version of the stove a musher with a full team would use. I made it from two pots, one fitting inside the other with just a bit of clearance on the sides so it can heat on the sides as well as the bottom. The inner pot sits on rods inserted through the outer pot. The burner is a coffee can cut down and placed under the inner pot. An old dog bootie serves as a wick (one per cooking) and alcohol is the fuel."
Stay Warm Have A Nice Weekend!!!
Big Dawg
02-02-2007, 20:44
Awesome,,, thanks again Zelph! Ummmmmm, now to the rotary cutter,,, do I need one to cut the wick? or can I use heavy duty scissors?
Skidsteer
02-02-2007, 22:26
Awesome,,, thanks again Zelph! Ummmmmm, now to the rotary cutter,,, do I need one to cut the wick? or can I use heavy duty scissors?
Heavy duty scissors(even regular scissors) will work just fine for the wick or the can....
This weekend it's going to be below zero here in Northern Illinois Brrrrr. I'll do some test outside while you all are watching the Bears win the Super Bowl :banana
Here: read this again : http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...ght/00031.html (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00031.html)
Here is the jist of it and I quote:
"It’s a stove just right for me and three dogs, a small version of the stove a musher with a full team would use. I made it from two pots, one fitting inside the other with just a bit of clearance on the sides so it can heat on the sides as well as the bottom. The inner pot sits on rods inserted through the outer pot. The burner is a coffee can cut down and placed under the inner pot. An old dog bootie serves as a wick (one per cooking) and alcohol is the fuel."
Stay Warm Have A Nice Weekend!!!
It was a balmy -1 degree in my garage this morning, sun was comming up, going to be a clear, sunny day today.
The test results are the same for sub zero temperatures. Alcohol burns just fine in cold temperatures.
I used a small aluminum ashtray with 1/2 ounce of denatured alcohol for the fist test. The ashtray is about 1/4 inch deep. Touched a match to the surface, lit up easily and burned rapidly. This shows why primer pans are needed and work just fine for many stoves. Primer wicks like the ones JasonKlass uses on his stoves replaces the pans. The fiberglass wick inside the pop cans stoves like I show in the upper post with the wick sticking up 1/8 inch serves the same purpose.
Next was an Ion with pink household insulation 1/4 inch from surface. Lit up easily and burned with small orangeish flame. As Sgt Rock said in one of his notes somewhere, his burner is hard to blow out, I found this to be very true. I'd like to know the dynamics of what is taking place there, very interesting science there:-?
Next an Ion no fiberglass. It would not light. Alcohol not close enough to the surface. Note: The ion has a 1 inch diameter hole, reducing the amount of fuel exposure, see info on wedding tin below.
Next was a small aluminum cat food container the size used to make the Supercat. Did not light, fuel not close enough to the surface.
Next was a wedding tin, no insulation, lit easily. Fuel has lots of oxygen around it to help with easy ignition.
Next was the "StarLyte". Lit easily and burned rapidly.
Now is a good time for alot of you to test your stoves in cold weather to verify my findings and put an end to the "urban legend". We are now obligated to diseminate this information to the backpacking world.
One more time: "Denatured alcohol burns easily in cold weather."
Mark this thread as one of your favorites, cut and paste it everytime the subject comes up. Down with the legends:) .
Add your test results as they become available. Those of you living in the midwest, the temperatures are dropping, do your testing, post your findings.
"Da Bears Rule":banana They should've made them play at Soldiers Field on their turf, in their kinda weather. Yeah right!!!!
Big Dawg
02-04-2007, 16:19
Good to hear Zelph, thanks for the results!
I have filled my pepsi can stove and held a lighter to the bottom for 30 seconds. This is enough to get the temp up so it will light. Hold it at arms length incase the fumes inside catch while "priming" it.
Sounds like Colin Fletcher's method of lighting his Svea (pre-pump) when the weather got good and cold. He was an avid tea drinker, so he would use his teabag wrapper, light it and hold the entire stove over it to preheat it. The Svea has that nice "key" handle to hold it with.
Sounds like Colin Fletcher's method of lighting his Svea (pre-pump) when the weather got good and cold. He was an avid tea drinker, so he would use his teabag wrapper, light it and hold the entire stove over it to preheat it. The Svea has that nice "key" handle to hold it with.
Today at -1 degree I could not get 3 butane lighters to work so that I could use them to ignite the alcohol.
Be sure to carry light anywhere matches if you suspect you will be out in these temperatures. The spark producing lighters won't work either. It's an experience to try and light something with a spark at these temps.
Hone up on your survival skills. Hypothermia kills!!!!!
Big Dawg, the wick went in the mail yesterday.
Big Dawg
02-05-2007, 00:07
Big Dawg, the wick went in the mail yesterday.
Thanks!!! :D
I'll post a pic when retrofit is complete!
Greentick18d
02-05-2007, 00:31
I am not a stove-dummy. I am not a stove-dummy. I am not a stove-dummy. Argh! Three failed attempts and I said ferget it. Now you guys got me riled up again. The juice and coke cans will not be safe...
well minen worked fine in the smokies and in 10 degree wether so far. But carry your bic in your pocket so you can light it. A cold bic wont work. O yea I use a vargo titanium alcohol stove.
Big Dawg
02-05-2007, 10:11
The juice and coke cans will not be safe...
:eek::eek::eek:
Have fun!! Get er done!!! :D
OK, I'll ask. Just what are you using for a wick? Doesn't look like Owens Corning pink fiberglass insulation.
fiber glass auto body repair cloth
whykickamoocow
02-09-2007, 22:35
im going to go uild an alcohol stove right now, and put my msr in mothballs
mweinstone
02-09-2007, 22:44
sorry im late. i see a useless thread has resurfaced. cool. i love to brag and boast to newbys. heres my cooler than yours method. dont sleep with burner to warm. just wake up, grab it, hold it down there for a few mins while you dress. and light. walah! ball heat!
mweinstone
02-09-2007, 22:47
best way to light a burner is to dip a spoon end or tent stake in the thing and light it instead of putting the match or lighter down into the fuel witch is a bad position. also, if your having sex with your wife, you can warm the ,....naw............
Lighting an alcohol stove in cold weather is easy. No wick, no primer pan. I use a pepsi can stove. I have left my alcohol and stove out on the ground overnight in 25 degree weather. I poured in the cold alcohol and let a little drip onto the upper rim. Then I hit it with a lighter with the flame adjusted to max., sort of like a little blow torch. Hold it there..., presto, magico....fire!!!
I left my trangia outside at night. Got up the next morning, scraped off the snow, unscrewed the lid, touched a match to it and it lit.
The only time I had trouble lighting the Trangia was when the alcohol was diluted with water. My tea kettle boiled over and into the burner, but the burner kept going. I assumed that the water would boil off but I forgot that alcohol boils at 30*f lower temperature, which means that I was really just using up the alcohol and leaving the water. I had to dump it out and fill it fresh. Learned three things:
(1) Kettles with rounded bottom edges will fill your burner when they boil over. So the GSI kettle with the flat rolled edge is better in that regard.
(2) A warmed up Trangia burner continues to work fine with a lot of water, dirt, pine needles, etc. in it, but you're going to have to dump it out, which is a waste of fuel.
(3) It is really nice to have a clean surface to set the kettle on when you don't want it on the running burner. Otherwise you have to mess around wiping off the bottom to avoid filling your burner will gunk.