View Full Version : Palisades Parkway
Pokey2006
10-22-2006, 17:56
This thought just popped into my head while I was posting on another thread, so, why not start a discussion about it?
This road crossing is beyond dangerous. It's only a matter of time before a hiker is killed out there. From reading the register in between the two sides of the crossing, it's obvious that most hikers agree.
Many hikers who wrote in the register also called for a bridge over this crossing. I think it's way past due. So does anyone know why there is no bridge over this highway? Does anyone know if there's any effort currently underway to get a bridge built? Or do we need to start the ball rolling?
The key is (no surprise here) money and volunteers. They built a pedestrian overpass over Pa. Route 225 (between Peters Mountain Shelter & the Susquehanna River) a few years ago. Funding came from a Transportation Equity Act grant, the National Park Service, and private donations.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 08:45
Ya, but is anyone trying to raise money or find volunteers? Because, geesh, sign me up! And though my post here hasn't raised as much interest as, say, swords on the AT, I'll still be that there are lots of other hikers out there who would also give their time and money to such a project.
Sure, next step will be to look up and contact the local trail maintainers, but still hoping someone with some knowledge of the situation will post here on WB...
I don't think a bidge of that magnitude could be built by volunteers, a private contractor would be needed. The AT is not the only trail to cross the parkway. I've cossed it hundreds of times by myself and with groups of ten or more. Its a nasty cross but doable. Stop-Look-Listen and Patience.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 09:07
Doable? Sure. I'm still alive, right?
Just because it's "doable" doesn't mean it's OK. That crossing needs a bridge. Period. End of story.
So, the question is, how do we make it happen? And is someone out there already trying to make it happen?
Try contacting http://www.nynjtc.org maybe there is a plan in the works
NY/NJ Trail Conference is doing all the work in Bear Mountain State Park. While it will be good to have that section of trail rebuilt, I gotta agree on the hazard at Palisades Parkway.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 09:31
Well, just fired off an e-mail to those folks. I'll report back on whatever the response is.
I do agree that any work done in that area is welcome. They're redoing the trail on Bear Mtn.???? Thank goodness. I couldn't even FIND the trail on Bear Mtn. Had to blue-blaze it, because I swear there was no white-blazed trail anywhere to be found....
As mad as the lack of blazes around there made me, it's not as bad as the dangerous situation at the Palisades Parkway. Suddenly, I feel like a woman on a crusade. God help us all.
Crossing the Parkway reminded me of the old videogame "Frogger"!:eek:
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 10:02
It was super scary! I was shocked there was no bridge over it. When I told other people back home that I had to cross it, people who were familiar with it as drivers, they were equally shocked.
It's WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!
Seriously, someone is going to get killed. I'd hate to wait for a tragedy before something is done to prevent it.
Any at grade road crossing on a 55 MPH road will probably eventually be bridged. The one on the Taconic Parkway was dealt with by building an underpass. I suspect the ATC will eventualy obtain some Federal Highway Administration funds to deal with the situation. A steel pedestrian bridge woukd be a likely solution.
Lines of sight are pretty good though. If you can avoid hitting this road crossing between 7-9 AM and 5-7 PM, you won't be sitting by the side of the road watching the cars wizz by for an hour. Plus you can pause in the median and catch your breath. The southbound lane will be the busy side in the AM, and the northbound lane will be rockin' & rollin' in the evening hours. FYI, Northbound hikers cross the southbound lane first. Southbound hikers cross the northbound lane first.
Just be careful and don't take any chances. In New York, it's 5 points for hitting a pedestrian, but there's a triple bonus if that person is wearing a backpack. :eek:
refreeman
10-23-2006, 10:41
Yes, the Palisades Parkway is very dangerous. Crossing the Palisades Parkway took me 15 minutes one time. Pissed me off, I had to night hike much more than I wanted. I always thought deer were just plain stupid to get hit by a car. I'd have to admit crossing the Palisades Parkway would make very it easy. I have great sympathy for deer now.
New York-New Jersey Trail Conference must have its priorities out of wack. A bridge over the Palisades Parkway represents hiker safety. Rerouting the AT over Bear Mountain represents flora and fauna safety. Maybe they just want to do the fun and easy problems. Go Pokey2006!, be the one!
New York-New Jersey Trail Conference must have its priorities out of wack. A bridge over the Palisades Parkway represents hiker safety. Rerouting the AT over Bear Mountain represents flora and fauna safety. Maybe they just want to do the fun and easy problems.
Apples & oranges Refereeman. The NYNJTC is not capable of dealing with the PIP issue. They are a volunteer based organization. That's an issue for NYS DOT.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 10:50
Geez, are you guys really OK with "someone will deal with it someday, it'll eventually happen???" I'm waiting for someone to tell me something's in the works, and, I hate to say it, but it doesn't look like anything at all is going to happen "eventually."
Good suggestion. I'll give the maintainers time to e-mail me back; maybe they have inside knowledge/insight that we don't have, then perhaps I will contact the NY DOT.
The thread is still open to any suggestions, thoughts, comments....
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 10:55
Um, and I would also like to hear from every person on this website who has had to cross this highway. If every one of you signed onto a petition, or pledged $1....I'm not sure what will be needed to make something happen here, but, at least chime in, all you guys who wrote those really pissed off notes in the register at the crossing!
Geez, are you guys really OK with "someone will deal with it someday, it'll eventually happen???" I'm waiting for someone to tell me something's in the works, and, I hate to say it, but it doesn't look like anything at all is going to happen "eventually."
I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed. You can bet ATC has a bridge for that highway on a wish list. There is a pedestrian bridge over the NYS Thruway just south of where the AT crosses the thruway and enters Harriman State Park. Ithink that's what we're looking at someday.
For thru-hikers & section hikers, if you could negotiate the trail in other places, you can safely cross a 2 lane highway - twice. You just might have to wait a little while to do so safely. It does create a memory however, as evidenced by this thread.
If the road crossing was on a section of trail often hiked by day hikers, it would have been addressed long ago - IMO.
Lone Wolf
10-23-2006, 11:03
I've crossed it quite a few times. Didn't find it that dangerous. Part of the adventure. Like fording the Kennebec.:)
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 11:11
Haven't gotten to Maine yet. When I do, I'm sure I'll be screaming for a bridge over the Kennebec. Just in my nature.
No, I'd rather cross a river than the Palisades Parkway, any day of the week. At least a river is in keeping with what the AT was originally intended to be. I don't think anyone back in 1930 intended for hikers to dodge rush hour traffic on a major highway 30 miles from the largest city (or one of the) in the country.
If the ATC has this on a wish list, if there's someone there that is "on top" of this issue, please, get me in touch with them. I'm trying to find out who else out there cares enough to actually do something about this.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 11:16
Oh, and ya, I agree -- if day hikers actually used that section of trail, it would be different. Though I did encounter a family just after crossing the highway. I have no idea where they came from, I don't think they even knew where they came from, but they were out for a walk on a weekend afternoon with their three or four very young children. This was a quarter of a mile away from the highway crossing. God forbid they got lost....or one of the kids ran on ahead of the parents...
No, Lone Wolf might not have thought it was a big deal, but it really is a serious safety issue.
Oh, and ya, I agree -- if day hikers actually used that section of trail, it would be different. Though I did encounter a family just after crossing the highway. I have no idea where they came from....
There is a large parking area called Anthony Wayne (http://www.nysparks.com/parks/info.asp?parkID=73) just north (left) of the AT. That's probably where they parked.
I've crossed it quite a few times. Didn't find it that dangerous. Part of the adventure. Like fording the Kennebec.:)
LW, I agree, You just need to take your time and think. Sight distance is good on both sides and traffic is coming from one direction only.
If anything, crossing Rt 17A at Mt. Peter is more dangerous. Cars coming around blind corners, just as fast, from both directions at the same time and no median.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 11:40
Oh, ya, you're such big, tough guys that 70-MPH traffic doesn't phase you at all.
Give me a break! Have you been to the same road crossing I'm talking about??? I mean, have you been there at any time other than 2 a.m. when you're doing a night hike? Because, no, it is NOT "part of the journey." Bull......t!
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 11:41
Where again is 17A at Mt. Peter? So terrifying, I must have blocked it out.
Lone Wolf
10-23-2006, 11:42
like i said, been there done it. no biggie.:)
Where again is 17A at Mt. Peter? 2 days south of the PIP. 3 miles south of Wildcat Shelter. There is an ice cream stand there now.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 11:45
Yep, I remember now. Had some a great double-peach sugar cone there.
These guys think THAT road crossing is worse then Palisades Parkway???? When was the last time you hiked this section of trail, Lone Wolf???? Because you are way off base here.
These guys think THAT road crossing is worse then Palisades Parkway???? When was the last time you hiked this section of trail, Lone Wolf???? Because you are way off base here.
Pokey, I hate to disagree, but I think 17A is more dangerous. And I lived 5 miles from there for 15 years. The lines of sight are very poor, and the speed limit is 55 MPH. You have to look & listen, or you'll be squashed like a bug. A former co-worker hit a black bear there one night, and never saw it. Smashed the thing at 55 MPH, killed the bear, and totalled the car.
Lone Wolf
10-23-2006, 11:53
like i said, been there done it. no biggie.:)
I was answering your post #22.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 11:56
I do recall that my heart pumped a little fast while I was crossing that road, though I was coming from the ice cream place, so walking along the road until I had an opening to cross. Wasn't too bad.
Not any where near as death-defying as that mad, crazy dash across NYC rush hour traffic. Ya, there might be more line of sight, but cars on PIP are zooming by at 70 or 80 mph!
Perhaps both crossings should be addressed?? Rather than arguing about which one is worse than the other one, which can just waste our energy and time?
Perhaps both crossings should be addressed?? Rather than arguing about which one is worse than the other one, which can just waste our energy and time?
The NYNJ Trail Conference was looking at some changes at 17A in 2003 when I lived in Warwick. They were trying to create a situation where hikers crossed at the point where visibility was at it's greatest point. I haven't been back there since then.
Funny thing... after 19 years with NY Telephone / NYNEX / Bell Atlantic / Verizon, I was offered a job with American Hiking Society while I was standing on the Appalachian Trail at 17A in March 2003. It's a long story that involves too much coffee, a cell phone, and my keys locked in the car while the engine was running. ;) I'll share that story around a campfire someday.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 12:08
Oh, bring on the fire starter!
Damn! Maybe I should have hung out there a little longer...
It's still gonna take a lot to convince me that 17A is worse then the Palisades Parkway. Or any road crossing on the AT, for that matter. To me, the PIP wins as the "worst," hands down!
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. There is however adequate sight distance to cross safely, just take your time.
You're likely talking about several million dollars to engineer and construct a bridge or bridges (remember the median) at this location. Whos money?
The average person commuting on the PIP is in more danger than a hiker dashing across. Go a mile north and watch the chaos at the traffic circle.
max patch
10-23-2006, 12:14
Someone whose name I've gone since forgotten was walking on the side of the road by the NOC and got sideswiped by a truck. Broken leg. Thru over.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 12:33
Um, I'm willing to chip in a little bit...if other hikers chip in a little bit, boom, there's your money to build a big, expensive bridge. Seems like you would rather just ignore the issue until someone else comes along and solves it for you. How convenient.
The NOC is only dangerous because you get there after having spent way too much time in the woods. It's a serious culture shock, sure to get any hiker to forget how to be careful crossing the street.
Um, I'm willing to chip in a little bit...if other hikers chip in a little bit, boom, there's your money to build a big, expensive bridge.
Actually, your gas taxes already pay for this sort of thing. Check out this link (http://www.americanhiking.org/policy/current/tea.html) for more info.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 12:53
They seem a little out there for me, though it seems like they're putting out the right message.
Though, geez, do we have to be these crazy hippy/environmental freak/peace-loving/just-found-Jesus nuts in order to get a movement started? Can't a regular Joe Schmoe just say, "hey, that road crossing really sucked. Let's make it safer." Does it have to be a huge, major production???? Does it have to boil down to either you're a hippy environmental freak or you're a Republican, Bush-loving freak?
What's wrong with our priorities?
Shoot. Bring our troops home. Restore a working government to Iraq. And build a pedestrian bridge over the Palisades Parkway.
Ain't rocket science. Just common sense.
Can't a regular Joe Schmoe just say, "hey, that road crossing really sucked. Let's make it safer." Does it have to be a huge, major production????
Ain't rocket science. Just common sense.
Makes sense Pokey, but it takes the local Land manager (PIPC), the agency managing the trail (ATC & NYNJTC) as well as political support from the local Congressional delegation (Sue Kelly, Schumer & Clinton). All three things have to converge, and the catalyst for such action usually comes from Joe Schmoe's like you.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 13:03
All righty then.
Glad I voted for Hillary not once, but twice! And no, I've never lived in, nor voted in, NY. She owes me, dammit!
Ya, I'm getting the sense that no one else has done a damn thing about this. OK. I'll do some research and see what I can find out, and I will report back on what I learn.
vipahman
10-23-2006, 13:30
It's a highway so don't amble across. It's only 2 lanes at 50mph posted (70mph actual). There is pretty good sight distance, so there should be no excuses. What else? Oh yeah! It's easier than crossing any road in the developing world. :D
If you disagree, then maybe we should also build ladders on El Capitan! :banana
Lone Wolf
10-23-2006, 13:36
It's a highway so don't amble across. It's only 2 lanes at 50mph posted (70mph actual). There is pretty good sight distance, so there should be no excuses. What else? Oh yeah! It's easier than crossing any road in the developing world. :D
If you disagree, then maybe we should also build ladders on El Capitan! :banana
And get bridges for all the stream crossings in Maine while you're at it, Poke.:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=MOWGLI16;259735] (There is a pedestrian bridge over the NYS Thruway just south of where the AT crosses the thruway and enters Harriman State Park. ) I seem to remember when this bridge was built it was on the AT I remember the press reporting a million dollar bridge for hikers. Do you recall any of this or is there an oldtimer that remembers crossing this bridge. I've crossed it many times it even has a name that I connot remember.
[QUOTE=MOWGLI16;259735] (There is a pedestrian bridge over the NYS Thruway just south of where the AT crosses the thruway and enters Harriman State Park. ) I seem to remember when this bridge was built it was on the AT I remember the press reporting a million dollar bridge for hikers. Do you recall any of this or is there an oldtimer that remembers crossing this bridge. I've crossed it many times it even has a name that I connot remember.
I think it's the Southfields Bridge, or something like that. Whether it was ever part of the AT, or not, I don't know. Not in the last 10 years or so though.
After looking at the Harriman trail maps, it looks like the bridge you are talking about gets the Nurian trail (also white blaze) over rt 87 and the Ramapo River. IMO the road crossing over rt 17 (not 17A) on the AT is worse than the Palisades crossing. It is very hard to see traffic heading north and cars are usually travelling around 60mph. There are lots of hairy road crossings in NY and NJ especially during rush hour. Do you propose we build a bridge over every road? Rt. 94, Rt. 284, rt17, rt 17A, Warwick turnpike, etc. It's just the nature of the states. Try living here and having to drive in this traffic...
Southfields Bridge I think is correct. I use that bridge if I park at the Red Apple Rest.
[quote=mrc237;259901]
I think it's the Southfields Bridge, or something like that. Whether it was ever part of the AT, or not, I don't know. Not in the last 10 years or so though.
If hiking the AT northbound, after coming down Agony Grind you cross Rt. 17 (another challenge).You then follow Arden House Road for a short distance. This road crosses over the Metro North tracks and the NYS Thruway. The crossing at this location is not dedicated to pedestrians. You then leave the road and hike up to Island Pond and Lemon Squeezer.
If hiking the AT northbound, after coming down Agony Grind you cross Rt. 17 (another challenge).You then follow Arden House Road for a short distance. This road crosses over the Metro North tracks and the NYS Thruway. The crossing at this location is not dedicated to pedestrians. You then leave the road and hike up to Island Pond and Lemon Squeezer.
Yes, we're talking about a pedestrian bridge south of there that accesses trails in Harriman.
Yes you're right but I am trying to find out if the Southfields bridge was part of the AT at one time. I know its kinda off topic however this could be a reason why a bridge over PIP may not be built. I can only assume the the AT crossed the PIP since it (the PIP) was built anyone ever hear of a fatality or injury concerning hikers?
Yes you're right but I am trying to find out if the Southfields bridge was part of the AT at one time. I know its kinda off topic however this could be a reason why a bridge over PIP may not be built. I can only assume the the AT crossed the PIP since it (the PIP) was built anyone ever hear of a fatality or injury concerning hikers?
To be realistic about this whole issue, I think the transportation officials in the NYC metro area have bigger problems to work on than bridges for a small number of hikers who may be exposed to a hazard for a few minutes in the course of their entire life. All of these road were built when cars were a little slower and drivers were a little kinder to each other.
Just be careful, don't cross until you know it's safe.
Even if it takes 15 minutes to cross, so what, You're hiking: no boss, no schedule, no docked pay, no reprimand. The sooner you cross, the sooner you finish, the sooner your back in one of those cars rushing to a stupid job that you hate.
Lone Wolf
10-23-2006, 18:22
To be realistic about this whole issue, I think the transportation officials in the NYC metro area have bigger problems to work on than bridges for a small number of hikers who may be exposed to a hazard for a few minutes in the course of their entire life. All of these road were built when cars were a little slower and drivers were a little kinder to each other.
Just be careful, don't cross until you know it's safe.
Even if it takes 15 minutes to cross, so what, You're hiking: no boss, no schedule, no docked pay, no reprimand. The sooner you cross, the sooner you finish, the sooner your back in one of those cars rushing to a stupid job that you hate.
I agree. NO BRIDGE needed.
Though, geez, do we have to be these crazy hippy/environmental freak/peace-loving/just-found-Jesus nuts in order to get a movement started? Can't a regular Joe Schmoe just say, "hey, that road crossing really sucked. Let's make it safer." Does it have to be a huge, major production????
Yeah, it does.
It takes years and hundreds of tousands of dollars before these things get done and that is only if the voters approve of the bonds in the elections.
Let's look at this another way. How many highways allow pedestrians to cross at grade? This is not just a threat to hikers, It is probably more of a threat to drivers. The road is filled with bad drivers. Many of them react poorly to situations confronting them.
Example: A hiker crossing the road startles a driver who slams on his brakes or abrubtly changes lanes and causes an accident. I'd be astounded if that has never happened before on the PIP.
Fact is though, I have passed the AT crossing on the PIP many hundreds of times, and have seen a hiker crossing exactly once. That was in 2001. Actually, she had already crossed and was walking down to the book store in the median looking for a cold drink.
Footslogger
10-23-2006, 18:47
I vote for a tunnel ...
'Slogger
I vote for a tunnel ...
'Slogger
That's on the CDT & PCT. At the southern border. :eek:
I agree that no bridge is needed just some common sense and patience. I sort of remember when the southfield bridge was built and the newspapers repoted that the bridge cost a million dollars to build (and thats a long time ago) just so some hikers could cross the NYS Thruway. Before the bridge we crossed under using the Ramapo River tunnel. It hit the papers again when the AT was relocated (I think) shortly thereafter. Point being that relocations happen all the time but you can't move a bridge.
Pokey2006
10-23-2006, 21:01
The issue here is that the trail crosses a HIGHWAY. A bridge isn't needed? Well, then I guess we don't need bridges over any of the highways on the AT.
Pokey2006
10-24-2006, 18:49
FYI:
I'm being told that a pedestrian bridge has not been considered by trail managers, however, it is forseeable that such a project will fall under serious consideration in the "not-so-distant future."
It was noted that traffic volume on the PIP continues to grow, an important point, I believe. It could explain, too, why people who hiked the trail years ago don't see the crossing in the same light as those who have hiked it more recently. It could be that the danger has increased over the years.
After a study of all highway crossings was conducted by the ATC three years ago, the signs warning drivers on the PIP of the hiker crossing were moved further away, I assume to give the drivers more of a warning before they come upon the crossing.
If I learn anything else, I will post that information here, for anyone who is interested. And if anyone else knows more about this, please, chime in.
I thought the highway crossing in Snickers Gap was worse....Luckily I hadnt been to the Horseshoe Curve yet...
Jack Tarlin
10-24-2006, 19:12
To put things in perspective, due to construction at the local college and hospital, traffic in Hanover has gone up something like 40% in many places in just a few years. There are a few intersections and crossings in town where someone almost gets flattened on a daily basis, frequently because they've got their heads up their asses listening to music or talking on a phone.
But I don't think the town needs to put in bridges, tunnels, flashing lights, or more signage.
I think people simply need to be smarter and more attentive when crossing the street.
I think the same holds true on the Palisades Parkway.
The millions of dollars that it'd cost to build a tunnel or bridge here, which would be used by only a few thousand people a year, is millions of dollars better spent elsewhere.
Thats what I think happened with the Southfields Bridge. It was built for pedestrians/ AT hikers to cross over the Thruway (at great expense) and then AT was relocated.
Thats what I think happened with the Southfields Bridge. It was built for pedestrians/ AT hikers to cross over the Thruway (at great expense) and then AT was relocated.
Well, that doesn't make the Southfields bridge a waste. Every weekend, hikers head from NYC to the (now closed) Red Apple Rest to hike in Harriman SP. Harriman receives more annual visitors than Yellowstone or Yosemite, and the AT is just one trail in the park. And IMO, it's far from the best trail in the park.
I drive down Rt. 87 almost everyday under the Southfield bridge and about a month ago a sign that says Appalachain Trail has appeared on it. There is no sign indicating the trail on the Arden Valley Road bridge just North of it. The sign can be seen going North and South on the highway.
Pokey2006
10-25-2006, 03:17
Additional signage is good in theory, yet I doubt it does a whole lot to convince drivers to slow down.
I'm not saying let's build bridges over every road crossing, but how about at least over the highways? Sure, it costs millions. But so did the creation of the AT. I'm sure there were other things we could have spent that money on instead of building a trail which only a few thousand people use every year.
Additional signage is good in theory, yet I doubt it does a whole lot to convince drivers to slow down.
There are three things that will slow a driver down at this point on the PIP.
Traffic
Sun Glare
A cop with a radar gun
That's pretty much it.
Hey Mow, when did the RAR close?
Hey Mow, when did the RAR close?
I donno. A friend from Warwick told my wife it closed. I heard that third-hand a few weeks ago. It had definitely seen better days, but I'll miss it just the same. I spent many a meeting there discussing how we were going to save Sterling Forest from development. Thankfully, 95% of the development was stopped.
Lone Wolf
10-25-2006, 08:31
Additional signage is good in theory, yet I doubt it does a whole lot to convince drivers to slow down.
I'm not saying let's build bridges over every road crossing, but how about at least over the highways? Sure, it costs millions. But so did the creation of the AT. I'm sure there were other things we could have spent that money on instead of building a trail which only a few thousand people use every year.
Uh, an estimated 5 million people a year use the AT. Still no bridge is needed.
If I recall correctly, the PIP is the only highway on the AT that does not have an underpass or overpass on it for hikers to cross. Pedestrians are prohibited everywhere else on the Parkway.
In the 16 years I commuted from Warwick to Pearl River (often on the PIP) the volume of traffic nearly doubled. That trend has only worsened since 9/11 as folks move out of the city to relocate in Orange & Ulster County.
Like it or not, it's probably just a matter of time before a bridge is built over the PIP. I certainly won't lose any sleep over it - one way or another.
PS: The Long Path crosses Rte 6 about 5 miles north of the AT crossing. The lines of sight are better there however, and the road is single lane at that point.
My first camping/hike was across the rd from RAR at Spruce Pond BSA Camp back in 1956 so the RAR is a special place for me. Will check it out next time I'm in the area.
Pokey2006
10-25-2006, 16:18
If 5 million people a year use the AT, then more then just "a few thousand" people would benefit from the building of a bridge over the PIP.
So which is it? Do only a handful of people use the AT, in which case a bridge would be wasted money, or do millions use it, in which case, a bridge is way over due? Hmmm.
I do agree that it's only a matter of time before a bridge is built. That was the message I got from the local trail maintainers, as well. But there's no project actually in the works, and it was pointed out that it can take years, no reason not to discuss it now.
Pokey2006
10-25-2006, 16:22
The millions of dollars that it'd cost to build a tunnel or bridge here, which would be used by only a few thousand people a year, is millions of dollars better spent elsewhere.
Just reminding you where I pulled that "few thousand" bit from....I was making a point, not actually saying only a "few thousand" people use the trail each year.
Pokey2006
10-26-2006, 00:16
New details:
I've been told by one of the local AT folks that "Any major project such as an overpass would have to be prompted by a true grass roots outcry about the safety issue of the PIP crossing." Yet this person is doubtful that such an outcry is on the horizon.
Among the reasons why there is no outcry, most of which have been raised here but repeated by this AT manager: 1. locals accept the minimal risk to hikers 2. hiker use is low 3. funding and 4. the aesthetic issue of putting a bridge in the park.
This person, however, does share the concerns about this crossing. Her idea is to create a more clearly marked pedestrian crossing, which she believes could work if there is enforcement. It would at least be cheaper then a bridge.
But my vote still goes for a bridge...
Well, if the PIPC decides it no longer wants pedestrians on their Parkway it'll happen. The PIPC was formed by Congress, and they have pretty significant influence with local officials.
Regarding aesthetics, there is a very nice looking wooden pedestrian bridge over the Parkway near the State Line. I imagine that would be the type of bridge installed if they ever decided to put one in.
Probably a relo before they spend $ for a bridge. Those bridges you speak of connect the BSA Camp Alpine on the W side of Rt 9W a bridge of the same type crosses that road as well. It connects the camp with the LP and an old lookout structure also a trail that leads down to the Hudson River. Those bridges are old but sound and have been there for as long as I can remember. A bridge of this type would be perfect for the AT crossing.
Probably a relo before they spend $ for a bridge.
You have to get over (or under) the Parkway somehow. That's the main issue.
Pokey2006
10-26-2006, 22:42
And there has to be a grassroots "outcry" before that can happen, which, unfortunately, usually only comes about when someone is killed. It would be nice to see a bridge there BEFORE that happens.
I wonder if drivers would be more apt to support such a project if they implement that idea to mark it as a pedestrian crossing AND enforce it...if a bunch of drivers get tickets, maybe...
If 5 million people a year use the AT, then more then just "a few thousand" people would benefit from the building of a bridge over the PIP.
So which is it? Do only a handful of people use the AT, in which case a bridge would be wasted money, or do millions use it, in which case, a bridge is way over due? Hmmm.
Numbers are deceiving. "Five million" people use the AT every year. What does this mean? It means 4,990,000 people get out of their cars in the Great Smokies, Shenandoah, or any of the other places with views you can drive to, walk half a mile in, turn around get in their cars and go home.
Trust me. Nobody really knows how many folks use the AT. It is somewhere in the millions, but that is mostly guesswork. The ATC is looking to try and quantify that number with greater certainty.
I did see an interesting contraption at the National Trails Symposium last week that can count pedestrians/hikers and actually determine which direction they passed the counting machine.
Regardless, it is mostly thru-hikers and section hikers who cross the Parkway - along with the occasional day hiker who hikes in from Silver Mine or starts out at Anthony Wayne.
And there has to be a grassroots "outcry" before that can happen, which, unfortunately, usually only comes about when someone is killed. It would be nice to see a bridge there BEFORE that happens.
Bingo! There was much outcry about a highway crossing from a local High School to a shopping center across the street from it. There had been many close calls. It had been proposed a few times but was alway shelved.
Then, a couple of kids got killed there.
It took a couple of years (Even though all of red tape had already been completed) but finally the pedestrian walkway was built and I think it was dedicated in the name of those killed. (nice, huh!)
...also cost a bundle.
Pokey2006
10-30-2006, 23:10
Costs a bundle, no matter whether you build it before or after someone gets killed. It would be nice if things would get done BEFORE a tragedy occurs, but it never seems to happen that way. I've seen it way too much, the outcry after the tragedy, and maybe that's why I feel so strongly about this.
The latest I've learned is that the study I referred to earlier did recommend painting a crosswalk there, but for some reason it was never done. One of the local AT folks who got back to me guesses someone somewhere rejected the proposal, but this person wasn't sure who rejected it or why.
I understand when people complain that there's no need for a bridge because of the cost, but what's the problem with putting some paint on the road??? Seem ludicrous that they won't even do that.
Doesn't seem like a biggie to me. There are far more dangerous places on the AT. It's like anything else, it takes common sense, patience and care. Those are the ingredients that go into being sucessful on the AT. I've crossed this highway numerous times, on day, section and a thru-hike, during all times of year. You may have to scurry across the road and the crossing may be confusing for a minute, but what would the adventure be, without a little adventure? It builds character!
Pokey2006
10-31-2006, 00:17
But I want my adventures to be about crossing flooded streams and outrunning thunderstorms on a mountain ridge, not dodging NYC rush-hour traffic!
Might not be the worst thing facing the AT, but it's one that I care about. I can understand if others don't agree, but I'll continue to believe that a bridge over the PIP is very much needed. Like I said, though, I hear ya.
Lone Wolf
10-31-2006, 08:13
You better ford the Kennebec then and leave the canoe for the sissies.
Kevin A. Boyce
10-31-2006, 10:48
Pokey, unfortunatly when the trail is crossing less then 50miles of NYC and the many many millions that live in the great NYC Metro area, part of the adventure IS dodging rush-hour traffic...
But I want my adventures to be about crossing flooded streams and outrunning thunderstorms on a mountain ridge, not dodging NYC rush-hour traffic!
:D I mean, shall we push for a tunnel or bridge over the Metro North train tracks out in Pawling too as very large trains speed past? No! :D **
Just a little patience is all that is needed to cross the PIP...
** Although I am sure the maintainers out there would LOVE a bridge over the swamp...lol