Aqua Mira doesn't kill giardia?

[VictoriaM]

What's the use of it, then? I was just about ready to ditch my big and heavy filter when I found this out. I'd really like to use a chemical treatment next year to save weight and space, but since giardia is the big (biggest?) risk, I want something that treats it. Cost is an issue, too. What does everyone here use, and how well does it work?

[Just Jeff]

Where did you hear that AM doesn't kill giardia?

[Skidsteer]

Yeah.

Say what?

[MOWGLI]

Giardia, in many peoples opinion (and in the opinion of some researchers out west) is more often transfered between humans as a result of the combo of poor hygiene and sharing food.

Lots of folks use AM on the AT. I used it on the JMT this summer. Compared to the cost of Polar Pure, which I used during my thru-hike, AM is prohibitively expensive. Long term use of iodine could also carry a pricetag however. I suggest you speak to your physician before going that route.

I've also heard it said that Polar Pure doesn't kill Giardia cysts when the water is below a certain temperature.

Good luck on whatever system you choose. I think you'll be just fine.

[A-Train]

Yeah, you guys might wanna do some research on AM. I was as shocked too. I've used it for 4000+ miles of hiking and was always under the impression it was as effective as a filter. Not till I started working at an outfitter did I realize how inadequate it really is.

That being said, I agree with Mowgli and those who echo his sentiments. Most of the time, it's human interactions that pass giardia.

[Egads]

What do you know about Chlorine-dioxide tabs other than they are slow acting :confused:

[Just Jeff]

You guys have any sources saying AM doesn't kill giardia? Everything I've read says it does.

[PJ 2005]

while you're at the doctor's office, ask about bleach. yep, bleach. i used it from pearisburg to the end and loved it - a one ounce dropper is all you need for 1,200+ miles.

doesn't sound right, but i talked to a hydrogeologist in the bottled water industry and he said it would chlorinate the water sufficiently. also checked out with a reputable pharmacist.

2-4 drops per liter, depending on the water quality. wait half an hour. i treated maybe 2/3 the time.

some crystal light on-the-go helps with the taste, but honestly, i was too thirsty to care most of the time.

it's dirt cheap!! and easy to find (once you have a dropper)!!

plus, it's delightfully convenient to fill up, drop drop, and go. no waiting for chemicals to react.

about 75% of the people i hiked with had adopted this method by the time we finished.

[Heater]

What's the use of it, then? I was just about ready to ditch my big and heavy filter when I found this out. I'd really like to use a chemical treatment next year to save weight and space, but since giardia is the big (biggest?) risk, I want something that treats it. Cost is an issue, too. What does everyone here use, and how well does it work?

Are you sure you are not thinking of Cryptosporidium?

[Just Jeff]

According to most places that sell it, and I think the AM tech sheet I read a while back (posted on another thread here, IIRC), AM kills crypto. Iodine does not. But I've always heard that both kill giardia.

[RedneckRye]

Drinking water treated with AM will kill you. :eek: Or not. :-?
I work at a gear shop, and as it has been explained to me, all that AM does is "improve the taste of potable water". I've also been told that the reason for that explanation being on the package is that it would cost way too much for McNett (the company that makes AM) to submit AM for testing to all of the various government agencies that check that stuff to get it certified as a purifier.
The government is here to make life safer and better for us. Trust them. Or not, and just dip and drink.:sun
RYE

[bfitz]

I think all you need is one or two drops of clorox.

[SGT Rock]

I have not heard this about AM. Waiting to see what evidence there is either way. Last I read on their site they were waiting for FDA approval to make certain claims about the product anyway. I tried it and didn't like the taste.

As to bleach. If you go that route use unscented. The scent stuff is a poison and will make you sick or worse. And if you follow the recommendation of survival class, CDC, or FEMA you should treat, wait 30 minutes and smell the water. If you cannot smell the chlorine in the water, you have to add the same amount again and wait another 30 minutes and smell again. If you cannot smell the chlorine yet, then you are supposed to dump it and find another water source - that source is too contaminated for bleach to kill it and still be safe to drink. So basic rule of thumb is if you cannot taste or smell the chlorine, you are not using enough.

As to iodine - Basically if you encounter water that is lightly to moderately contaminated and follow the package recommendations, then you are probably going to be fine. And the entire time the iodine is in the water, it is working. So if you take a drink at a half hour, you have less protection than you will when you take another drink from that water 30 minutes later or an hour later - then you are getting a higher protection level than is required by the FDA. When you filter and there is something in the water, it gets the chance to come back as it sits in your bottle. But as to water quality in the back country - there has never been a study of the water on the AT, but from anecdotal evidence (the fact that some people that never treat or filter don't get sick, and the general consensus being that most stomach bugs are probably hand to mouth passing of other diseases) one can assume that the water along the AT is either not contaminated by Giardia or crypto in most places; and in the places it is: the contamination is so low it wouldn't cause most healthy people that drink it to get sick.

To the safety of iodine. You already eat it regularly in salt - read the package, it is iodized. The reason for that is you need iodine in your system to prevent goiters. And a recent article I read said with the low salt craze in America that most people are not getting the RDA of iodine now anyway - so if you increase your iodine intake for a few months it probably won't hurt the average healthy person. Plus you can neutralize the iodine with VitC after it has done it's job.

And as to filters - Roland Meusser, in his book, has data that shows in laboratory controlled tests that filters are only 70% effective against Giardia after they have been used regularly. The stats on filters are only when they are new. Compare that to Iodine treatment in the same study that found the iodine to be greater than 90% effective when used according to the package recommendations. And 99% when given longer periods of time. Plus filters do not stop any viruses - even the filter makers recommend using chlorine or iodine in addition to their filters to protect against viruses. The last big outbreak of illness on the AT was HepA - a virus. I've never heard of a big outbreak of Giardia or crypto on the AT, while there have been many many cases of stomach viruses every year on the AT. Hmmmm....

Anyway, we didn't have filters for years in the back-country and everyone survived without them. Now that filter companies are selling them to backpackers, our water has suddenly become very very dangerous and the battle cry is "I don't want to take any chances" LOL. The best thing you can do is practice good hygiene. If you really don't want to take chances you would bring a filter with iodine and wash your hands like a doctor.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

This is a link to a 41 page EPA document (http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw000/mdbp/pdf/alter/chapt_4.pdf) about the active ingredient in Aqua Mira as used by city water systems. On page 34, it recommends using chloramines in addition to the active ingredient in Aqua Mira to kill everything.
I
In conventional treatment plants, chlorine dioxide (active ingredient in AM) used for oxidation is fed either in the
raw water, in the sedimentation basins, or following sedimentation. To limit the oxidant
demand, and therefore chlorine dioxide dose and the formation of chlorite, it is common
to add chlorine dioxide following sedimentation. Concerns about possible taste and odor
complaints have limited the use of chlorine dioxide to provide a disinfectant residual in
the distribution system. Consequently, public water suppliers that are considering the
use of chlorine dioxide for oxidation and primary disinfectant applications may want to
consider chloramines for secondary disinfection. I don’t treat water from pristine sources – springs & streams coming off high mountains with no grazing or civilization above. I carry a few halazone tablets (available at any pharmacy by asking pharmacist) and add those to water in heavy use areas. I boil really suspect water – inconvenient and takes forever to cool - but not nearly as inconvenient as getting really sick in the backcountry and it kills everything.

Polar Pure (iodine) takes high concentrations and an hour when water is cold and ph is uncertain. Adding Vitamin C will remove the taste of iodine. Iodine can build up in your body and cause problems. It is not recommended for regular use on extended hikes for this reason.

If I were thru-hiking and planned to treat all water, I'd use a light-weight filter.

[MOWGLI]

If I were thru-hiking and planned to treat all water, I'd use a light-weight filter.

IMO, that is probably the best method from a health perspective, BUT, many hikers cross contaminate when using filters. If you go that route, make sure you read ALL of the instructions, and follow them every time. :sun

[Lone Wolf]

dip it and drink. best method out there. 25 years and 100% success rate.:)

[woodsy]

http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Water.htm

[SGT Rock]

Excellent link woodsy. Thanks.

[woodsy]

Lots of reading there,
nice bug pictures too:eek:

[SGT Rock]

I wonder if the author would be against letting us post the article here too?

[Moose2001]

This is what the EPA has to say about using bleach.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/faq/emerg.html

Chemical Treatment
When boiling is not practical, certain chemicals will kill most harmful or disease-causing organisms.
For chemical disinfection to be effective, the water must be filtered and settled first.Chlorine and iodine are the two chemicals commonly used to treat water. They are somewhat effective in protecting against exposure toGiardia, but may not be effective in controlling more resistant organisms like Cryptosporidium. Chlorine is generally more effective than iodine in controlling Giardia, and both disinfectants work much better in warm water.

You can use a non-scented, household chlorine bleach that contains a chlorine compound to disinfect water.
Do not use non-chlorine bleach to disinfect water. Typically, household chlorine bleaches will be 5.25% available chlorine. Follow the procedure written on the label. When the necessary procedure is not given, find the percentage of available chlorine on the label and use the information in the following table as a guide. (Remember, 1/8 teaspoon and 8 drops are about the same quantity.)

Available Chlorine Drops per Quart/Gallon of Clear Water Drops per Liter of Clear Water
1% 10 per Quart - 40 per Gallon 10 per Liter
4-6% 2 per Quart - 8 per Gallon (1/8 teaspoon) 2 per Liter
7-10% 1 per Quart - 4 per Gallon 1 per Liter

(If the strength of the bleach is unknown, add ten drops per quart or liter of filtered and settled water. Double the amount of chlorine for cloudy, murky or colored water or water that is extremely cold.)

Mix the treated water thoroughly and allow it to stand, preferably covered, for 30 minutes. The water should have a slight chlorine odor. If not, repeat the dosage and allow the water to stand for an additional 15 minutes. If the treated water has too strong a chlorine taste, allow the water to stand exposed to the air for a few hours or pour it from one clean container to another several times.

[woodsy]

I wonder if the author would be against letting us post the article here too?

Couldn't hurt to ask sarge, Click on maintainer at top of page .
I found this link posted at another hiking forum where this same issue was being discussed in depth.

[hopefulhiker]

I liked the article too, Woodsy, Also I had not heard of "Pristine" the Canadian version of AM... They said it is exactly the same product, the companies had the same roots it seems. They said that chlorine dioxide will kill just about anything by oxidizing it.. Anyway I used AM about 95% of the time on my thru hike. I used a filter up north for a coulple of weeks because the drought water really muddy. If the source seemed to be right out of the spring or pipe, sometimes I would drink right out of the ground..

[highway]

HHmmm...

So many methods above for treating the mountain water.

yet each one seems to work for their users.

Makes one wonder whether any of them are really needed at all?;)

[MOWGLI]

I'm looking for an expert to discuss "the real" issues with drinking water in the backcountry for The Great Southeastern Hiking Festival. If anyone knows of any engaging speakers who are knowledgeable about the subject, please send me a PM.

[SGT Rock]

HHmmm...

So many methods above for treating the mountain water.

yet each one seems to work for their users.

Makes one wonder whether any of them are really needed at all?;)

Well this gets to something I realized a while back and I belive it more and more. Someone's water treatment is a faith based issue.

I know some people will disagree. Because they know their treatment is best. That all other treatments are certain roads to damnation.

Challenge someone's faith on their system and they will tell you why theirs is best and others are lesser. But the truth (according to Muesser) is all treatments are basically the same when it comes to real world efficiency.

But watch and observe. You will see what I mean. Maybe you aready have. :-?

[Two Speed]

Before the silliness gets going I'd like to say that the article mentioned earlier in this thread looks like a lot of good information, and that there's another one here on WhiteBlaze that bears reading: Giardia Lamblia and Giardiasis With Particular Attention to the Sierra Nevada (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=119497#post119497). Based on my limited professional experience these two articles, if read for understanding, will provide plenty of information so that the average backpacker can make an informed and intelligent decision.

Now, to the silliness.

Anyone who doesn't use the same filter as I do is a servant of evil and deserves eternal torment. So there. :bse

[Footslogger]

[quote=SGT Rock;277435]
Challenge someone's faith on their system and they will tell you why theirs is best and others are lesser. But the truth (according to Muesser) is all treatments are basically the same when it comes to real world efficiency.
==========================================

Excellent point Rock. Case in point ...I used mechanical filters for years and ended up getting giardia. Switched over to chemical treatment (AquaMira) around 2000 and haven't gotten sick once.

I trust it because I haven't gotten sick yet while using it. That said, if I went hiking tomorrow, used AM and got giardia I'm sure I'd lose some trust in the product.

'Slogger

[woodsy]

I found this link posted at another hiking forum where this same issue was being discussed in depth.

Lol, I should have said: where the issue was being beat to death and the posters were beating up on each other over whose water treatment was good and whose wasn't, blah, blah, blah. However, what most agreed on was that pre-filtering water through cloth or coffee type filter before treating with whatever helped cut down on sediment related issues.

[Lone Wolf]

Giardia and bears. 2 biggests fears on the AT. Buncha scardy cats.:eek: :)

[Two Speed]

. . . However, what most agreed on was that pre-filtering water through cloth or coffee type filter before treating with whatever helped cut down on sediment related issues.A great idea if you're filtering, treating with chemicals or not treating at all. Extends filter life, makes chemicals more effective and gets the "floaties" out if you're not treating at all. A cheap win-win any way you slice the problem.

[SGT Rock]

I found this link posted at another hiking forum where this same issue was being discussed in depth.

Lol, I should have said: where the issue was being beat to death and the posters were beating up on each other over whose water treatment was good and whose wasn't, blah, blah, blah. However, what most agreed on was that pre-filtering water through cloth or coffee type filter before treating with whatever helped cut down on sediment related issues.

This is part of the observation I have made. A person that spends $150 on a filter and is willing to lug about an extra pound of weight and spend all the effort to pump the thing has a lot of belief, money, and effort tied into that piece of equipment - so it better be needed.

A person that is throwing caution to the wind is likewise putting faith into the fact that they are using absolutely no protection whatsoever and that they will be fine.

And everywhere in-between there is faith in whatever system you decide to use or not use.

Because the threat is unseen and unproven. There are studies as to what you can do with a filter to treat sewage, how much Giardia iodine kills in lab-infested waters. But the real truth of the matter (based on the only people that have ever tried to figure this out) is no system (including none at all) seems to really be any more effective than the other in real world conditions.

So it has to be a matter of faith.

And something that challenges your faith, well it generally will end up being attacked - because to accept an argument that shows your faith could be wrong could destroy the bond of trust you have placed in the system. That is why for many people the whole choice of water treatments and filters is a very emotional issue.

Good luck campers. ;)

[highway]

Rock:
Does the military still use iodine tablets-1/clear;2/cloudy/canteen?

[Footslogger]

Giardia and bears. 2 biggests fears on the AT. Buncha scardy cats.:eek: :)
============================

The Giardia didn't bother me half as much as that dat gawn antiboitic (Flagyl) used to kill it. Cure is darn near worse than the disease.

'Slogger

[LostInSpace]

Has anyone compared the findings in the aforementioned articles with the information from this US Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine site (http://usachppm.apgea.army.mil/WPD/CompareDevices.aspx), mentioned in another thread?

[SGT Rock]

Rock:
Does the military still use iodine tablets-1/clear;2/cloudy/canteen?

You can get them, but as I recall, the recommendation now is 2 per canteen no matter what it looks like.


============================

The Giardia didn't bother me half as much as that dat gawn antiboitic (Flagyl) used to kill it. Cure is darn near worse than the disease.

'Slogger

I wonder if you can use cypro (sp?) on that. That is what they gave me in OIF 1 when I got dysentery.

[RockyTrail]

Has anyone compared the findings in the aforementioned articles with the information from this US Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine site (http://usachppm.apgea.army.mil/WPD/CompareDevices.aspx), mentioned in another thread?

LS, that's the most comprehensive study of water filters and purification systems I have ever seen. They really analyzed everything, didn't they?
My Katadyn hiker filter didn't place all that well overall, but the aqua-mira came out better than I expected.

Amazing what your tax dollars can do when they are focused on your hobbies!

[SGT Rock]

Has anyone compared the findings in the aforementioned articles with the information from this US Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine site (http://usachppm.apgea.army.mil/WPD/CompareDevices.aspx), mentioned in another thread?
Another good link. I checked the chart and ballanced it against some of the data in the chart itself. For example:

Polar pure: protects against viruses and bacteria, but for Giardia and crypto it said no.

But then you read the notes on it that it links to - about giardia:

Polar Pure is capable of consistently achieving adequate Giardia cyst log reductions if increased dosages and/or longer contact time (wait time) beyond manufacturer’s directions are used. To ensure adequate reduction of Giardia cysts in all water quality conditions, it is recommended that wait time be increased to at least 90-120 minutes and dosage doubled to provide a dose of 8 mg/L. This results in CT of 720-960 mg-min/L.

So this chart can help you at a glance see how something works - but there is more to each entry that should be looked at.

That said, this tells you how they all protect you from hell, they just don't tell you what your chance of actually going to hell is.

[Alligator]

That's a weird glitch, 26 minutes between a double post.

[SGT Rock]

That is one of the results of having an Iraqi ISP.

[Alligator]

That is one of the results of having an Iraqi ISP.Get somebody else to crank the generator while you post!

[SGT Rock]

LOL. More like get a new guy to hold the satalite dish still.

"HEY ALI - A LITTLE MORE TO THE LEFT!"

[woodsy]

Seems like alot of info to decifer in order to make a decision on what is the easiest route to go. And the easiest(disenfectent) such as the Katadyn Micro Pur takes four hrs. to treat, inconvienent, but kills alllllll the bugs effectively according to Army research link. If it wasn't for the crypto bugs it would be alot simpler. Boiling for one minute to kill crypto bugs was suggested at this link. So a combo of boiling and Aqua Mira or Deatrick should work for all bugs.
What is your take on it ?:-?

[SGT Rock]

As I have said before. I haven't hear of an outbreak of Giardia or Crypto on the AT yet.

There are, however, stomach bugs and viruses that people seem to deal with on a regular basis. The last big outbreak on the trail was Hep A. SO, playing the numbers, and fighting the enemy - the lightest, cheapest, easiest way to go is the best overall plan. Iodine will kill the critters cheap, easy, and it isn't any harder than using a filters or more odd chemicals - and if you plan it right it is as light if not lighter. If the iodine is a concern, use the Vit C neutralizer too.

But, I still say with all this, washing your hands is probably a whole lot more effective than any treatment or filter will be when it comes to staying healthy.

[Blissful]

I used AM when I took some friends out who had never been backpacking. It was river water, red in color (Red Creek in WVA), kind of cloudy. Followed the instructions they gave for that kind of water. No problems from anyone.

I'm going with it for my thru.

[SteveJ]

I'm looking for an expert to discuss "the real" issues with drinking water in the backcountry for The Great Southeastern Hiking Festival. If anyone knows of any engaging speakers who are knowledgeable about the subject, please send me a PM.

Hi, Mowgli - pm sent....

Steve

[lbbrown]

Has anyone tried the UV-Aquastar? Info for it at www.uvaquastar.com . (http://www.uvaquastar.com)
The uv-c light is supposed to toast everything.

[greentick]

I wonder if you can use cypro (sp?) on that. That is what they gave me in OIF 1 when I got dysentery.

No. Cipro for bacteria.

Flagyl for the giardia parasite. 90% of the folks taking flagyl will wish they were dead if they get near alcohol. In the name of science I tried it several years ago while at the end of my treatment for Giardia - was amused to find that I am a 10%er. Wu-hoo! There are now some meds that are recommended ahead of flagyl - tinidazole (one time dose) and nitazoxanide (3 day course). I have no experience with the newer regimens.

[VictoriaM]

Quack...another problem. For reasons I don't care to get into right now, I can't use any filter or treatment that isn't safe for pregnant women. All the chemical treatments seem to be unsafe. Guess I'm back to the filter. Oh well.

[greentick]

Quack...another problem. For reasons I don't care to get into right now, I can't use any filter or treatment that isn't safe for pregnant women. All the chemical treatments seem to be unsafe. Guess I'm back to the filter. Oh well.

or boiling...

[peter_pan]

goos article...THX.

Pan

[SteveJ]

clip

(If the strength of the bleach is unknown, add ten drops per quart or liter of filtered and settled water. Double the amount of chlorine for cloudy, murky or colored water or water that is extremely cold.)

clip

I have a buddy that exclusively uses bleach while backpacking. He called the clorox company before deciding to rely on this. They told him to use 4 drops of regular unscented clorox bleach per quart of water for clear water. Wait 20 minutes and sniff - if there's a faint smell of chlorine, it's ready to drink. If not, add 4 more drops, wait and sniff again. I figured it must be pretty reliable for them to tell some Joe that was calling them that it's OK.

I use Aqua Mira. Before I decided to drop the 15 oz filter, I did some research on this. After reading The Weasel's law thread, I hesitate to review what I found then without citing sources, but just don't have time to do the research now! My recollection is that chlorine dioxide, the chemical formed when the 2 components of AM are mixed, does kill all commonly found (in the US) bacteria, including giardia, within about 20 minutes (longer for colder water). The exception is cryptosporidium, which takes 3 hours. I have a buddy with the CDC who I also consulted then, and he generally agreed with what I found when I mentioned it to him on a backpacking trip. I believe he said this wouldn't be that safe overseas because viruses exist there that AM won't kill that aren't common here.

OK, I've cited a buddy I had a conversation with 2 years ago, discussed research I vaguely remember from 2 yrs ago, and another buddy who I haven't talked with about it in 2 years! Consider the source!

Seriously, tho, if there is real research that says that chlorine dioxide doesn't kill giardia or any other bacteria common to the US, I'd be interested in seeing it....

YMMV, consider the source, etc!

Steve

[Mr. Clean]

just remember that if you add bleach to water that has any color to it, you will be producing trihalomethanes and haloacetic acids in your drinking water, both of which are cancer causing. If the water is clear, you're all set.

[Spock]

"As I have said before. I haven't hear of an outbreak of Giardia or Crypto on the AT yet." SGT Rock

Yep. Forgitaboutit. Surveys show 9 percent of filterers get giardia; 6 percent of chemical treaters get it; 3 percent of non-treaters get it. Contradictory? Not when you realize hikers are not getting it from the water. They get giardia from sharing utensils, water bottles, food from other hikers with poor personal hygiene or from themselves for the same reason. Wash your hands and don't share utensils. Simple.

See the book, Long Distance Hiking: Lessons from the Appalachian Trail, Roland Mueser. pp 92-101.

[SGT Rock]

Actually Spock, not to quibble, but that that was were people that reported getting sick - not actual confirmed cases of Giardia. Read it again. Got quite a few articles around here that say chances are very good that people who think they have giardia but don't have a doctor confirming it are probably wrong. More likely a stomach virus or some other sort of bacteria.

[grysmn]

Aqua pure is a bianry purifier, That is the treatment in two seperate bottles is relitively benign until combined and relitively benign after a time limit of tens of minutes. The treatment is most potant at the instant of combination and the effectiveness probily decreases along the curve of a natrual log graph when applied concerning potancy-vs-time. Due to the human factor there are many varibles to make an assumption for a general person in a general situation. Though for a person who always follows directions the treatment should be effective.
Keep in mind that no treatmentis one hundred percent effective. Your bowls can handle a certain level of germ and bacteria ingestion, in fact this ingestion is necessary for digestion. It is when this bacteria and germ concentration reaches high levels that sickness results, usually the high concentrations are associated with dissolved fecal material, or from fecal material transmitted from ones rectum to mouth through the lack of soap and or toilet paper.
The point is that most any purifacation, filtration when combined with proper sanitary habits will be up to the task of maintaining healthy bowls

[smokymtnsteve]

Actually Spock, not to quibble, but that that was were people that reported getting sick - not actual confirmed cases of Giardia. Read it again. Got quite a few articles around here that say chances are very good that people who think they have giardia but don't have a doctor confirming it are probably wrong. More likely a stomach virus or some other sort of bacteria.

why do U hate filters so much??:-? :sun :eek:

[MedicineMan]

because they are so heavy and they clog.
1oz supersaturated iodine crystals will last/treat several THOUSAND gallons of water....that is pure iodine crystals....just dont ingest the crystals, use only the supernatant fluid that surrounds them...if I- sensitive or preggers leave them alone.

[smokymtnsteve]

well just let ur trail dog carry the heavy filter :rolleyes:

[Kerosene]

I just read an article in a BackpackingLight magazine about effectiveness in treating the biofilm present in most water sources. Most treatments are lab-tested against free-floating organisms, which are harder to kill once they "congregate" into colonies protected by a biofilm. In summary, the findings highlighted that water filters were ineffective, and in fact biofilm can propogate around the filter elements. Aqua Mira was consistently the most effective, especially at 2X dosage levels, with the Miox UV pen giving marginal results. The iodine crystals of Polar Pure did not fare well in these tests.

[highway]

Theres nothing like...dipping 'n sipping...:D

[Fiddleback]

...and if that BackpackingLight article didn't make the point, others have...the bigger threat it seems comes from the beasties (bacteria) present in the biofilm.

If that's the case, then there are a couple significant realizations to follow:

- the risk from buggies in the biofilm are big given that biofilm is more common/wider spread than giardia and crypto

- chemical treatment becomes more important when considering the potential contamination and/or clogging of filters by biofilm

- it seems it's safer to rely upon AquaMira (or those of similar chemical makeup)


FB

[MOWGLI]

...and if that BackpackingLight article didn't make the point, others have...the bigger threat it seems comes from the beasties (bacteria) present in the biofilm.



All the more reason to take water (whenever possible) from highly oxygenated, rapidly moving sources.

[SGT Rock]

why do U hate filters so much??

Sorry I missed this when I got back on steve, didn't mean to leave you hanging. I had a fight to break up over on the legal thread...



Actually Steve that post you quoted from me never said the word filter. Never inferred filter, wasn't even about a filter. You must have me confused with someone else.

IT [the post] also never said iodine, bleach, or anything else. It simply pointed to a fact about the chapter from a book about water and sickness. I guess I am a hater in your eyes because I point out flaws in the filter/water hype when people say they are "better" protected by filters. As I said earlier water treatment is a faith based decision and disagreeing with someone's faith can lead to strange actions by some people. In this case you have decided I am a hater - I AM AN APOSTATE OF FILTERS! Ohh, scary :eek:

When you are trying to improve safety you access the hazard first and implement controls - not implement controls to threats that marginally exist and then spin the need for the controls you create. If you did that, well we would need more bear spray and guns on the trail because there is a "threat". But in this case the hazard is possible water contamination not actual water contamination - the chance that the water is actually contaminated is low. Then you look for what it could be contaminated with and the chances of that contamination are based on past experience with the threat. Chances are that if there is anything, it is standard bacteria and stomach viruses - both filters and treatments work on one of these - but neither is instantly or completely effective, to say one is always more effective is bunk, yet people say it all the time.

While filters are initially very effective, that effectiveness goes down during usage - this is a proven fact although some filter users bypass this fact and simply want to continue in faith. AND, for the sake of argument, lets say some micro critters make it past your filter because it is clogging or they get in your water later because of sloppiness in handling your filter by cross contamination, or were left over from a previous contamination in your water container. How will your filter continue to protect you after initial filtration? :-?

On to chemicals. They are not as effective as a new filter - but are generally always the same effectiveness level when used as directed - so an iodine pill is just as effective on the 10th pill as it was on the first. And they continue to work as long as they are not neutralized - something a filter cannot claim to do. Some people like to quote effectiveness of water treatments at say 30 minutes and compare that to the effectiveness of a brand new filter when trying to promote filter use over treatments. But lets put those same chemicals in the same scenario as above? How effective is iodine of chlorine after you water has been sitting in your water bottle a few hours or how about all night? Is it less or more effective? Does it continue to inhibit growth of organisms after the initial treatment? How effective is the filter when it has been used on a thru-hike for a month and how does that compare to Aqua Mira? :confused:

Sorry you don't want to accept the fact that the Giardia and Crypto threat is hyped by people trying to sell products and then passed on by well meaning people passing facts and figures. I sort of figured a free spirited mountain man with a cynical streak like you would be all over that. But honestly, when was the last outbreak of either confirmed on the AT? Can't name it. BUT viruses are a problem - when was the last outbreak of Hep A? Last year. How many people do you know get a stomach virus (probably Norwalk virus or cytomegalovirus. Viral hepatitis and the herpes simplex virus are also out there and cause diarrhea. Rotavirus is the most common cause of acute childhood diarrhea. Viral diarrhea spreads easily)? All the time. If someone really wants to take time to protect themselves from what is out there instead of the boogy men (Crypto and Giardia) then they would want protection from viruses too, but some filter literature apparently says it isn't needed (wonder why?) :mad:

But I've also said that if you were really wanting to take no chances, you would use both. How does that make me a filter hater?

And what the heck exactly is a filter hater? Is that something like a Satan worshiper? Should I be silenced for spreading apostasy?

But because I don't buy into the hype on any of the water treatments or filters, especially whichever you expose, I must hate it. I am an apostate.

See, it is as I said: water treatment is a faith base choice - like religion. Diss someone's choice and it is like dissing their religion. Suddenly you are a hater or whatever.

[rswanson]

I just read an article in a BackpackingLight magazine about effectiveness in treating the biofilm present in most water sources. Most treatments are lab-tested against free-floating organisms, which are harder to kill once they "congregate" into colonies protected by a biofilm. In summary, the findings highlighted that water filters were ineffective, and in fact biofilm can propogate around the filter elements. Aqua Mira was consistently the most effective, especially at 2X dosage levels, with the Miox UV pen giving marginal results. The iodine crystals of Polar Pure did not fare well in these tests.
FWIW, Ryan Jordan at backpackinglight.com holds a PHd in biofilm engineering. The 'maintainer' of the bushwalking.org article, Roger Caffin is a staff member at BPL as well. Their findings seem to indicate that a combination of chlorine dioxide and proper hygiene practices is the safest, most weight concious way to eliminate bugs. There are a few excellent articles on the BPL site regarding this subject.

[bfitz]

I got giardia...it kicked in about a week after I finished, so it must have been in Maine, although the only place I didn't make any effort to purify was Thoreau Spring. I always joke that's where it came from. The first doc told me I didn't have it. After about 3 more weeks of suffering I went to another doc. He tested me, confirmed it was Giardia and gave me some flagyl pills. One week later I was cured. I started eating and gained about 15 pounds in like a month. The end.

[Amigi'sLastStand]

Ok, Ok. I have started several posts about the failing of AM and have provided all the evidence I can that that stuff is a scam. Change of pace...

Can anyone, anyone, find anything from a reliable source that specifically states AM kills giardia? Free pepsi can stove if you can! You pay shipping, lol. Seriously, provide any link to a reputable source that proves the stuff is worth the money.

[rafe]

HHmmm...

So many methods above for treating the mountain water.
yet each one seems to work for their users.
Makes one wonder whether any of them are really needed at all?;)


Good question. Roland Mueser found no correlation between incidence of sickness and the chosen method of water treatment. L. Wolf may be on to something. On the other hand, I used Wolf's approach for about 15 years... until I finally caught a dose of god-knows-what following a hike in the Whites. Since then, I've been filtering my drinking water, and carrying iodine (Potable Aqua) as a backup.

[rafe]

All the more reason to take water (whenever possible) from highly oxygenated, rapidly moving sources.

Well, yeah, if that's an option. :rolleyes: Down in the valley where the cattle graze, it doesn't help much. And high up on a rocky ridge, the only water you're likely to find are shallow pools.

[woodsy]

Ok, Ok. I have started several posts about the failing of AM and have provided all the evidence I can that that stuff is a scam. Change of pace...

Can anyone, anyone, find anything from a reliable source that specifically states AM kills giardia? Free pepsi can stove if you can! You pay shipping, lol. Seriously, provide any link to a reputable source that proves the stuff is worth the money.

This link http://usachppm.apgea.army.mil/WPD/CompareDevices.aspx has a thorough run down of filters and disenfectants, scroll down to the yellow section for AM
You can keep the pepsi stove but thanks anyhow

[Amigi'sLastStand]

Hmm, compare my MSR Sweetwater with AM from that link. It does show a single check mark for giardia and crypto, but not bacteria? It's also an Army website. That right there tells me not to trust it, lol. Try to find anything from McNett about AM's effectiveness against giardia. You wont, since they cant legally say AM kills giardia. Where's the Weasel when you need some legal mumbojumbo to sort this out. Oh yeah, off suing someone again.....

[TIDE-HSV]

they paper themselves very well with disclaimers, etc. Suing them would probably be an exercise in futility. (I'm not a litigator [g].) I've finally come to using a filter plus MP on shorter hikes and a chemical agent on longer ones. Like Slogger and a couple above, I've had documented Giardia. I got it in the Wind River Range (Near Fayette Lake <large resident, nasty-tempered beaver> off the Pinedale side, if you're reading, Slogger). I was boiling, but, stupidly, rinsing with lake water. It was not a pleasant disease, and the sulfa drug they gave me was unpleasant also - even without the "no alcohol" part. As for the "Giardia myth" part, I once had an interesting exchange with a female ranger in GSMNP. Her husband, also a ranger, and a friend had contracted Giardia out of untreated water from Roaring Fork off Mt. LeConte. She said that, when they checked the streams off LeConte, Giardia was almost always there - and it doesn't get much more oxygenated than Roaring Fork. Of course, with the lodge, you have what amounts to a small village above your water source. But that same description fits many locations on the AT...

[Cookerhiker]

I used AM on my JMT hike last September plus 2 shorter overnights in Oct. and Dec. I really liked it but in light of what I've read on this thread, it falls into the category of too good to be true. Guess I'm back to my heavy pump filter.

[rafe]

I used AM on my JMT hike last September plus 2 shorter overnights in Oct. and Dec. I really liked it but in light of what I've read on this thread, it falls into the category of too good to be true. Guess I'm back to my heavy pump filter.


Well, actually, the message I get (and from other sources also) is that it doesn't really matter much how you treat your water, or even if you treat at all. There just doesn't seem to be a correlation between rate-of-sickness on the trail and mode of water treatment. It's quite likely that folks get sick mostly from something else. The weird part is, I still carry a filter. :-?

[highway]

Well, actually, the message I get (and from other sources also) is that it doesn't really matter much how you treat your water, or even if you treat at all. There just doesn't seem to be a correlation between rate-of-sickness on the trail and mode of water treatment. It's quite likely that folks get sick mostly from something else. The weird part is, I still carry a filter. :-?

One does what feel right for one.
But whats rights right for one is not always right for everyone.

I stopped carrying that useless pound years ago.

[Fiddleback]

Ryan Jordan contends that lab studies continue to support the claim that the chlorine-dioxide--based AquaMira is effective against viruses and protozoa. EPA evaluation of this claim and approval for said use is pending.

Dr. Jordan writes that chorine-dioxide systems are better than bleach or iodine against bacteria found in biofilms (where the vast majority of bateria is found -- http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/aquamira_mcnett.html). The page at this url also references "Efficacy of Chemical Water Technologies in the Backcountry", McKenzie and Ryan, Backpacking Light Magazine, issue 2. This is a great article which compares the efficacy of AquaMira to other chemical treatments including iodine and MSR Miox. It also discusses the problems filters have with bacteria and biofilm. It was a key piece in my decision to increase my reliance on chemical treatment and leave the MSW Sweetwater at home.

There are now chlorine-dioxide tablets (no mixing) by Potable Aqua and Katadyn. Presumably they are as effective as AquaMira? If so, they may be the ultimate in clean water convenience.

FB

[rafe]

There are now chlorine-dioxide tablets (no mixing) by Potable Aqua and Katadyn. Presumably they are as effective as AquaMira? If so, they may be the ultimate in clean water convenience.


The tablets look interesting... but read the fine print. Whereas iodine and (liquid) Aqua-Mira become effective after 1/2 hour, the wait time for the tablets (IIRC) was 4 hours!!!

[Two Speed]

I think this debate demonstrates how complicated water treatment is, not the superiority of any given system. The essential problem is twofold:

First, you rarely have absolutely certain knowledge what the contaminant organism, virus or chemical is. With certain knowledge of the contaminant determining the best treatment method becomes much easier.

Second, defining the individual vulnerability to the contaminant varies widely. If a person had certain knowledge that 3 giardia oocysts per litre wouldn't affect them and that the water contained less than 3 oocysts treatment would be uneccesary. Unfortunately we don't get to hike with that certain knowledge.

At the end of the day I can recommend paying attention to the source, passing up obviously heavily contaminated sources if possible and that hygiene can only be a good thing. After that, well, YMMV.

[Footslogger]

I agree ...it's kind of a dice roll from the git go. What I tell people who ask is to do their homework, pick a method they understand and trust and then run with it, knowing that they might still get sick from water gathered along the trail.

'Slogger

[Two Speed]

. . . knowing that they might still get sick from water gathered along the trail.

'SloggerOr poor hygiene. Or town food. Or gastric upset from exertion and changes in diet. Or some of each, including suspect water. Or they may never know with absolute certainty what made them sick. :-?

Alright, enough of this agreement garbage. We, as WB members have a certain reputation to maintain. My method is the bomb and you're a punk sissy fool if you don't agree.

Unless The Empress BadAss Turtle agrees with you, in which case I'm the punk sissy fool.

[Lone Wolf]

My method is best. No treating or filtering. You're a sissy if you do.

[Footslogger]

Alright, enough of this agreement garbage. We, as WB members have a certain reputation to maintain. My method is the bomb and you're a punk sissy fool if you don't agree.

Unless The Empress BadAss Turtle agrees with you, in which case I'm the punk sissy fool.

==========================================

You're living dangerously son ...

'Slogger

[Two Speed]

==========================================

You're living dangerously son ...

'SloggerThe similarities between Austin Powers and myself are striking. We both have bad teeth, we're British and our middle name is Danger!

[Footslogger]

The similarities between Austin Powers and myself are striking. We both have bad teeth, we're British and our middle name is Danger!

=========================

Yeah BABY ...

'Slogger

[Two Speed]

Looks like our work here is done. Round up Hammerhead, 1/2Pint, JJ and Lacbe and report to the holodeck at your earliest convenience.

[Footslogger]

Looks like our work here is done. Round up Hammerhead, 1/2Pint, JJ and Lacbe and report to the holodeck at your earliest convenience.
======================================

I thought we were on authorized LOA ?? Wassup ??

'Slogger

[Two Speed]

======================================

I thought we were on authorized LOA ?? Wassup ??

'SloggerUh, I can't count? :eek:

[Fiddleback]

The tablets look interesting... but read the fine print. Whereas iodine and (liquid) Aqua-Mira become effective after 1/2 hour, the wait time for the tablets (IIRC) was 4 hours!!!

I didn't go back and check but as I remember the 4-hour wait was specific to crypto. None the less, both the tablets and the liquid AquaMira are great advancements, IMO.

What I'm doing now is carrying a Bota water filter bottle and the chlorine dioxide. The Bota is great for immediate drinks along the trail, the chemical good for doing larger quantities of water when there's some time...like in the evening in camp.

FB

[rafe]

What I'm doing now is carrying a Bota water filter bottle and the chlorine dioxide. The Bota is great for immediate drinks along the trail, the chemical good for doing larger quantities of water when there's some time...like in the evening in camp.

I've been thinking along those lines. To me, the main problem with the chemical treatments is that you can't "camel up" at water sources. The Bota (or an equivalent) would get around that.

[Footslogger]

[quote=Fiddleback;292303]I didn't go back and check but as I remember the 4-hour wait was specific to crypto. None the less, both the tablets and the liquid AquaMira are great advancements, IMO.

======================================

Exactly why I now carry a combination of the two. I use AquaMira (or Klearwater) during the day and the tablets over night. I typically gather water in a 4 liter platy at night time. I pour off what I need for dinner and let the boiling handle those bugs. Then I add the tablets to the remaining water in the platy and let it set all night. It not only makes the water safe but cleans out the platy.

'Slogger

[woodsy]

http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1080-6032&volume=015&issue=04&page=0235

From journal of wilderness medical society, more food for thought and personal-group hygine.

[Fiddleback]

[quote=Footslogger;292361Exactly why I now carry a combination of the two. I use AquaMira (or Klearwater) during the day and the tablets over night. I typically gather water in a 4 liter platy at night time. I pour off what I need for dinner and let the boiling handle those bugs. Then I add the tablets to the remaining water in the platy and let it set all night. It not only makes the water safe but cleans out the platy.

'Slogger[/quote]

I virtually always carry an alcohol soda can stove. My water seldom reaches boiling and never stays at that point long enough to be effective treatment. But I like the idea of using both the liquid and tablet treatments!

I should have added in my post that my method (Bota filter bottle during the day on the trail, and AquaMira or tablets at night in camp) works very well because all my trips here in this area have featured lots of creeks, rivers and lakes. Hikes with widely separated water sources and/or harsh heat would require carrying more water and diminish the convenience of the Bota. Otherwise, it's really great to stop, refill the Bota as desired, and drink confidently and copiously with no waiting.:)

FB

[highway]

It doesnt much matter what one does-whether use it all or nothing-

E.Coli Happens!

[khaynie]

I was in the Atlanta, GA (Perimeter Mall) REI a couple of weeks ago when I realized they were no longer (at least in this location) carrying Aqua Mira. When I asked a sales rep why not, he replied that they were trying to limit "over the counter" purchases since it can be used in Crystal Meth production. However, he told me that I could purchase AM online.

Now I haven't done my homework to see if his claim holds any validity, but if it's true, then perhaps AM isn't quite as useless as many of the previous posters have stated:D

Footnote: My wife and I used AM on our entire thru hike and never got any waterborn illnesses...and we drank out of some very "suspect" water sources.

[khaynie]

After going to rei.com, I couldn't find Aqua Mira for sell there either. Hmmmm...

[Two Speed]

Last time I was in the Atlanta store I was informed that REI was no longer carrying Aqua Mira; the clerk told me that "all Aqua Mira does is improve the taste of water." At least he had heard of Mountain Crossings, so he wasn't totally uninformed about the hiking world.

[rafe]

Last time I was in the Atlanta store I was informed that REI was no longer carrying Aqua Mira; the clerk told me that "all Aqua Mira does is improve the taste of water." At least he had heard of Mountain Crossings, so he wasn't totally uninformed about the hiking world.


Last time I checked -- about three weeks ago, my local REI was carrying the tablets but not the liquid form of AM.

There's a fella on AT-L who swears by Clorox bleach for water treatment. "Just a couple of drops" per quart. Anyone else use that strategy?

[Footslogger]

There's a fella on AT-L who swears by Clorox bleach for water treatment. "Just a couple of drops" per quart. Anyone else use that strategy?

========================================

I heard it's kinda rough on the suntan ...

'Slogger

[shades of blue]

http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1080-6032&volume=015&issue=04&page=0235

From journal of wilderness medical society, more food for thought and personal-group hygine.

Folks...this is a really cool link, read it!

[SteveJ]

Last time I checked -- about three weeks ago, my local REI was carrying the tablets but not the liquid form of AM.

There's a fella on AT-L who swears by Clorox bleach for water treatment. "Just a couple of drops" per quart. Anyone else use that strategy?

Hi, Terrapin - see post 53 on this thread:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19174&page=2

I've carried bleach in an eye-dropper bottle as a back-up purification system. My buddy with the CDC has stated something like, "....if we could get wide distribution of bleach in 3rd world countries and train them how to use it, we could virtually eliminate water-borne intestinal illnesses...." Personally I wouldn't rely on as sole source for a LD hike, tho......

[rafe]

I've carried bleach in an eye-dropper bottle as a back-up purification system.

... as a backup to what? What's your primary system, if I may ask?

FWIW, I googled on "clorox bleach water treatment" and found this interesting notice from the American Red Cross:

http://www.rense.com/general2/watrpur.htm

[soulrebel]

You guys are so messed up adding chemicals to water that you've probably paid to drink at the store or while on vacation. Spring water is great, none better.

All of that jazz is marketing meant to target your fears.

Become knowlegable and respect our natural water sources.

However, I don't recommend drinking 2 liters of unpurified schulkykill water especially when a dead dear carcass lies in the river 200 yards up (found him later). Oh well, never got sick from that one either.

I MISS my mountain water!!! I had to buy a RO filter when I got back b/c that chlorine taste is so foul.

[Fiddleback]

Bleach can be effective for treatment against bacteria and is "somewhat effective" against giardia. However, bleach apparently is not totally effective against protozoa and viruses. Further, the user must avoid bleach with additives and use only unscented bleach. Also, bleach ages, especially if not sealed properly, and over time will lose its effectiveness as a water treatment.

But speaking of illicit drugs...

I learned today that iodine now is held behind the counter...at least it is at my WalMart. When I asked why, the pharmacist said it was to monitor large purchases as it can be used to manufacture drugs. That was news to me and now I wish I had asked which drugs.

In any case, the pharmacy didn't have any so I have to wait 'til next week. I carry it in my first aid kit in lieu of alternative antiseptics because I can use it as a backup water treatment although it's not as effective as the chlorine-dioxide--based treatments and, like bleach, is not effective against crypto.

FB

[SteveJ]

... as a backup to what? What's your primary system, if I may ask?

FWIW, I googled on "clorox bleach water treatment" and found this interesting notice from the American Red Cross:

http://www.rense.com/general2/watrpur.htm

Good link, terrapin. It's consistent w/ what Clorox told my buddy - 4 drops / quart...

I use Aqua Mira as my primary water treatment method.....