2 pieces of gear....anyone tried them?

[Michele]

Hey everyone,

Through my shakedown hikes, I've discovered I'm an extremely cold sleeper. I currently own a WM Ultralite, 20degree bag. I was nosing around and discovered two things I am curious about. Has anyone ever used either of these...if so...what did you think? If you've tried this, are you a ground dweller or a hammock hanger? Thanks!

http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/item/125648/N/0/afl/427/CMP/KNC-70100/cmpn/70100


-and-

http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/product.asp?path=Search&path=Wester+Mountaineering+15+Pod&search_handle=A%3dWester+Mountaineering+15+Pod%7eB %3dWester+Mountaineering+15+Pod%7eD%3d9%7eE%3d1%5e 1%5e2%5enum_Sort1%7eJ%3dPARTIAL_MATCH%7eK%3d4%7eL% 3d1%7eM%3d1%7e&scid=SearchResults&pf_id=PAAAIAMPDCLGLJBC&spoffset=2&s_id=0

[Cuffs]

I just "upgraded" from a TNF Cats Meow (20*, syn) to a Montbell UL superstretch Hugger (15*, down). I wish I had done that long ago! I dont sleep in the same position all night long. The Hugger allows me to move around, sit up, stretch, curl up almost fetal-style and doesnt let in any draft. If you are looking at a $340 bag already, I would at least look at the Montbell...http://www.backcountry.com/store/MTB0024/MontBell-America-Inc.-U.L.-Super-Stretch-Hugger-1-Sleeping-Bag-16-Degree-Down.html?mv_pc=r126&CP=Froogle&CMP=SPC-Froogle&ATT=MTB0024-ulsuperstretchhugger1sleepi&GCID=C2000x025&keyword=MTB0024+ul+super+stretch+hugger+1+s

[Just Jeff]

Be sure to read up on vapor barriers if you're not already informed. Stephensen's Warmlite has a good bit on their site: www.warmlite.com (http://www.warmlite.com).

[Michele]

Be sure to read up on vapor barriers if you're not already informed. Stephensen's Warmlite has a good bit on their site: www.warmlite.com. (http://www.warmlite.com.)

So these are basically like the foil emergency blankets right? You have to be very aware of your body temps and prevent sweating, but you can stay really warm?

Man...did you actually check out their catalog? I'm sure the point of their pictures is to show how well this product works w/out the need for multiple layers. Sure is a unique way of marketing their product. :D

[DawnTreader]

Michelle,
It might be to late with all your budgeting and gear whording and all, but have you checked out the jacks underquilts? Your hanging right?
I am a cold sleeper and the underquilt really nullified my cold feet and sides..

[Michele]

Michelle,
It might be to late with all your budgeting and gear whording and all, but have you checked out the jacks underquilts? Your hanging right?
I am a cold sleeper and the underquilt really nullified my cold feet and sides..

I own a JRB Nest, which keeps me comfy warm into the 50's and I add a ccf pad inside my hammock when the temps drop into the 40's. I'm pretty new at cold-weather hanging so I have some other techniques to practice (tarp pitch, hot water in my canteens, etc.) Thanks so much for the suggestion though. I'm just on a mission to try to figure out other alternatives that may be more lightweight than a bulky ccf pad inside the hammock. I've got 3 months and 4 days to keep experimenting.....and then...whatever I've got is just gonna have to make due! :D

[DawnTreader]

wow.. still cold with the nest? now thats a problem I've not encountered, and I've been into the upper 30's with it. Have you tried down booties? sometimes my feet get cold and I wrap them in my ccf sit pad, then my whole body seems to warm up. Are you leaving to much space between the underquilt and the hammock bottom? You must be a supremely cold sleeper.. good luck!

[Heater]

Michelle,
It might be to late with all your budgeting and gear whording and all, but have you checked out the jacks underquilts? Your hanging right?
I am a cold sleeper and the underquilt really nullified my cold feet and sides..

Gear whording? :eek:

Just a little harsh, huh? :D :D

[hammock engineer]

I second checking the way you are using the nest. I have yet to be cold on top in my hammock. All the cold I have is from below. I am fine with mine until 40. Everytime I get cold in it my thermometer on the ridgeline reads 40. I add the pad and I am fine. But I guess I am a little warmer a sleeper than you.

Are you fine with the pad, or are you still cold? If you are still cold with the pad, there might be something else. Look into upgrading for underquilt. The jacks guys or Jeff would know more about this, but you may be able to layer your underquilts.

[Just Jeff]

Yeah - if you can afford another underquilt, you can use the three-season set when it's warm, then the Nest+NS on bottom and your warm bag inside for cold weather. Nest+NS+pad on bottom would probably get you to very cold.

Vapor barriers...kinda like emergency blankets but not really. A vapor barrier is a barrier to vapor...meaning when you sweat, it can't evaporate through the barrier...and it's the evaporation of sweat that cools you down, not just the presence of sweat. So if your sweat stops evaporating b/c it has nowhere to go, that means you stop your evaporative cooling. (You still have evaporative cooling even if you're not sweating...it's called insensible perspiration and it's what keeps your skin moisturized.) So anything that's non-breathable can be a VB...silnylon, plastic, a garbage bag, etc. The important thing is that any leaks in the VB where the moisture can escape will decrease the humidity level inside the VB...and you'll start evaporative cooling again.

Which is one of the differences between emergency blankets and VBs. VBs usually have a way to seal off any ventilation...socks, pants with cuffs, bag liners, etc. Some emergency blankets are also like that, but many of them are just blankets that you wrap around you...so even though it's not breathable it doesn't really function as a VB in this sense b/c it doesn't stop your evaporative cooling. But technically it's still a barrier to vapor since it's not breathable.

The main function of emergency blankets is usually to reflect your heat back at you...that's why they're shiny. And they work best when there's a small gap between you and the blanket. Vapor barriers work regardless of the gap.


With a VB, you'll be clammy inside but still warm. You'll have a constant (high) level of condensation all night. Then when you get out in the morning, it'll evaporate quickly and you'll be cold for a bit while you get dressed. So...VBs work best in dry, sub-freezing temps.

[Grinder]

Michele asks"

Man...did you actually check out their catalog? I'm sure the point of their pictures is to show how well this product works w/out the need for multiple layers. Sure is a unique way of marketing their product. :D[/quote]


Worked for me!! I feel warmer already!!

<G>
Tom

[doodah man]

Hey everyone,

Through my shakedown hikes, I've discovered I'm an extremely cold sleeper. I currently own a WM Ultralite, 20degree bag. I was nosing around and discovered two things I am curious about. Has anyone ever used either of these...if so...what did you think? If you've tried this, are you a ground dweller or a hammock hanger? Thanks!

http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/item/125648/N/0/afl/427/CMP/KNC-70100/cmpn/70100

-and-
http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/product.asp?path=Search&path=Wester+Mountaineering+15+Pod&search_handle=A%3dWester+Mountaineering+15+Pod%7eB %3dWester+Mountaineering+15+Pod%7eD%3d9%7eE%3d1%5e 1%5e2%5enum_Sort1%7eJ%3dPARTIAL_MATCH%7eK%3d4%7eL% 3d1%7eM%3d1%7e&scid=SearchResults&pf_id=PAAAIAMPDCLGLJBC&spoffset=2&s_id=0

Michelle,
One thought before you spring for the $89 cost for something like that mountainger.com commercial vapor barrier… In my youth when $ were scarce, we used to use jumbo sized trash bags for a vapor barrier for winter camping. Seemed to me that they substantially lowered the temperature rating of the sleeping bag. Some of my hiking pals trimmed them to more closely match the bag shape for a better fit using tape to splice the cut edge back together. It is certainly easy and cheap to try to make sure a vapor barrier works for you. I got a noticeable benefit even from a ¾ length barrier (to arm pits), which is less restrictive of movement than a full length one and worked for me because I usually only had problems with cold feet. doodah-man (ground dweller)

[Just Jeff]

I think that's the owner's mom (his parents used to run the company). To each his own.

[Just Jeff]

...we used to use jumbo sized trash bags for a vapor barrier for winter camping...

Yep. Even sewing a silnylon bag would make a vapor barrier...2 yards of Wallyworld's stuff would get you a VB for $2! You'll just want to wear some light wicking underwear/socks so your skin doesn't stick to it.

[Perkolady]

Michele,

I have a similar problem AND a similar set up (I have the NS instead of the nest- SO FAR ;) )

When I was trying it out in the backyard recently- it was in the low 30's- I was too cold until I went in and put on a heavy fleece jacket and pants.

That made all the difference in the world !

I ended up wearing: mid weight longies, the heavy fleece jacket and pants, socks and a fleece hat.

I sure hope you can find your solution soon!
I imagine it'd be great to have that covered...

Best of luck !
Perkolady

[Michele]

Michele,

I have a similar problem AND a similar set up (I have the NS instead of the nest- SO FAR ;) )

When I was trying it out in the backyard recently- it was in the low 30's- I was too cold until I went in and put on a heavy fleece jacket and pants.

That made all the difference in the world !

I ended up wearing: mid weight longies, the heavy fleece jacket and pants, socks and a fleece hat.

I sure hope you can find your solution soon!
I imagine it'd be great to have that covered...

Best of luck !
Perkolady

Wow..sounds like you and I experience the same thing. For my last time out, I did purchase some fleece pants, and my lower body was fine. I was wearing mid-weight pataonia thermals, l.s. marmot shirt and my micro-puff vest on torso and started getting cold chills after a few hours, but in my upper body mainly. I think I may need to get a fleece top to wear at night and I bet that would work too. I might lose the vest and get a fleece coat. Geez....I'm going to be carrying a whole department store worth of clothing with me! :D I'll get this down sooner or later. I want to be prepared to handle temps in the teens and then everything else will be cake.

[Perkolady]

Michele,

I've tried with my Thermawrap jacket, and for whatever reason, it just doesn't keep me as warm in the hammock as the fleece does.

As far as how much clothing you bring, remember the old saying that it's, "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it!"

You go ahead and bring it with you, and as you get used to being outside all the time, and as you see what works for you, you can ship it home later.

Nothing worse than being miserable freezing cold (and maybe wet too), and being too limited with what you can do about it.

The energy you'd use fighting the cold could far outweigh the energy you'd use carrying an extra pound, IMHO....

I'm rooting for you !! :)
Perkolady

[houthuse]

Hi! I would not recommend using the vapor barrier liner type solution to your problem. I think clothing might be the best bet for managing the temps. I recently ended up sleeping on a thermarest pad in a thermolite bag liner with one of those space blanket bivys around it inside my tarptent with temperatures down to around twenty seven inside my tent (its a long story that begins with forgetting my sleeping bag and goes downhill from there) with all my clothes on. I cannot recommend this. I was miserable, but I did not get hypothermia and I did not die. I did sleep for a while. I was in a fairly low risk situation, i.e. not alone and relatively close to my car, so I thought I would try to cope and see what happened, because I don't have a ton of experience backpacking and thought it might be good to see what that would be like in case of future emergency. I now know I could survive the night, I think even if I didn't have my tent I might have made it without going back to the car, maybe out of sheer stubborn-ness (and embarrassment for having made such a foolish but potentially serious error as forgetting my bag). However, I probably won't ever forget my sleeping bag again, and if I do, I know what it might be like. Lesson learned!
Good luck!

[1azarus]

hello all. i just spent last night near the telephone pioneers shelter in New York State, and tried out the stephenson vapor barrier shirt -- which isn't too expensive, about 12 dollars, i think. if you call them you can ask them to leave off the pocket to save a(very) little bit of weight... anyway, it really helped. i've resisted the idea of using a garbage bag or more serious vapor barrier sack inside my bag because you can't wear all the clothes you brought with you inside the bag or it will get wet. what i like about the vapor barrier shirt is that i can put all my clothing on on top of it when i get in to camp, and then wear it all at night. sooooo, i just bought a pair of plastic sauna pants, i think they call them, at walmart -- comes with a top, too, for about 6 bucks. the top isn't as nice as the stephenson shirt, so i won't use it, but the pants -- i want to wear them as a vapor barrier under the rest of my clothes when i get into camp and stop walking, and for sleeping... this way, i can get up and pee or tighten my sagging hammock without freezing! maybe??? what do you think?

[Just Jeff]

Should work. One important note for VBs - since you get clammy, you should remove all insulation between you body and the VB or it will get wet. Including clothing, except for a thin wicking layer so the VB doesn't stick to you. The Stephensen's stuff has a lining in it so you don't even need anything under it. But wearing a bunch of clothes inside a VB will give you wet clothes in the morning, and it takes longer for the VB to work b/c the clothing sucking the moisture off of your skin instead of letting it build up...i.e., you're producing insensible perspiration much longer than you need to.

And yeah - most folks that try them (at least on these kinds of forums) don't seem to like them b/c of the clamminess. But for truly cold and pretty dry temps, they're not as bad...and they keep your bag from collecting your body's moisture over long trips, which can save your life in some cases. Read up on Iditarod racers and such for folks who know a lot more about VBs than I do.

[houthuse]

So in my case, with no sleeping bag, I would have been better off to have taken off my clothes inside the crinkly bivy, then put the bag liner over the top of that? Without clothes, except for my hat? That, unfortunately, makes much more sense to me now than waking up moist with it still cold outside. Darn it. :confused: I guess I was so cold I didn't really think about sweating. Hmmm. Well, that is good to know. Hopefully however, there will never be a next time! :sun

[Just Jeff]

Well, it depends on other conditions, too. Lofting insulation is important too...in your case, it may have been a fair trade to spend a single night like you did. Or maybe wear your base layer, then the bivy, then the bag liner, and spread out your other insulation on top of you between the bivy and bag liner. But still...I don't imagine you would have been very comfortable like that, either. :D