Winter gear /WalkH,Tarlin,TJ,Old Fhart,Iceman

[John B]

Personally I've found Gardenville's thread "Winter AT Start 2007" to be one of the most interesting that I've read in a long time. But I didn't want to get it off track, so I'll ask in a new thread.

Jack Tarlin wrote in part, "For information on Maine, I think the most informed people on this website are WalkinHome, Teej, and Weary...
For Northern New Hampshire I'd get in touch with the Old Fhart, who has probably spent more time in the White Mountains during wintertime than anyone else here.... Iceman95 is also very knowledgable about New Hampshire in the wintertime."

I'd be very curious to see these fellows and others with lots of extreme winter hiking experience post a skin-out list of clothes worn and taken on multi-day hikes. Info on boots (or trail runners) would also be very helpful.

I noticed in one reply to Gardenville's thread comments on sweating like a dog while postholing through deep snow and the need to get into dry clothes asap once you stop. I'm assuming that a heavy down parka is needed for camp? Info on particular brands would be very helpful.

Thanks in advance for info.

[StarLyte]

Wolf23000 and Weathercarrot are cold weather hikers too. PM them.

Sounds like you know what you're doing.

Good luck - and have fun.




Personally I've found Gardenville's thread "Winter AT Start 2007" to be one of the most interesting that I've read in a long time. But I didn't want to get it off track, so I'll ask in a new thread.

Jack Tarlin wrote in part, "For information on Maine, I think the most informed people on this website are WalkinHome, Teej, and Weary...
For Northern New Hampshire I'd get in touch with the Old Fhart, who has probably spent more time in the White Mountains during wintertime than anyone else here.... Iceman95 is also very knowledgable about New Hampshire in the wintertime."

I'd be very curious to see these fellows and others with lots of extreme winter hiking experience post a skin-out list of clothes worn and taken on multi-day hikes. Info on boots (or trail runners) would also be very helpful.

I noticed in one reply to Gardenville's thread comments on sweating like a dog while postholing through deep snow and the need to get into dry clothes asap once you stop. I'm assuming that a heavy down parka is needed for camp? Info on particular brands would be very helpful.

Thanks in advance for info.

[icemanat95]

It's not about a packing list, it's about a skillset and knowledge base.

Moisture management is important. Your skin layer should be highly wicking. I like Hind Drylete against the skin, but Underarmor is good stuff as well, though expensive. Above that you need a breathable layer of moderate insulation like a microfleece. Additional layers of insulation will be needed according to conditions and finally a wind/snow/water layer.

For my feet I typically choose a wicking liner sock and a thick wool sock or wool blend designed for winter climbing. Plastic boots or crampon compatible leather boots go on over this depending upon weather. In the coldest weather, it is plastic with an insulated super-gaiter over the boots. I may add a vapor barrier sock between the wool sock and the liner in really bitter cold. When wearing leather boots I also wear gaiters.

For hands I wear a midweight liner glove under a mitten with a goretex shell over the mitten.

I am a big fan of balaclavas. They can be rolled up into a watch cap or rolled down to cover head and ears and neck and pulled up over nose and mouth leaving only the goggles exposed, essentially sealing out the weather. Goggles are critical gear. I prefer the most highly ventable goggles I can find to reduce the possibility of fogging them up.

A down parka is highly desireable for camp at night and sometimes even for hiking during the day....Mine is primaloft or something much like it. Plenty warm for me.

Down booties go a ways toward ensuring nighttime foot comfort as well, but they can be viewed as a bit of a luxury. I carry them though.

A good down sleeping bag in the -20 degree range is a necessity. I have a bag good to -40 and it is overkill. A bivy bag and a vapor barrier liner will extend a lower fill power bag quite a bit, but the VB liner sucks for comfort. A good winter sleeping bag is pricey. A thicker sleeping pad is also a good idea such as an expedition weight Ridgerest and/or a standard thickness Thermarest. Sleeping on snowpack will suck the heat out of you fast.

Tent...Your ultralight stuff ain't of any use. There are floorless designs that work well, but they need to be well-set and staked down with religious fervor. My personal tent is an old Wild Country Quasar, the North Face Mountain is a similar design and weight. If your wallet cand stand it, Bibler makes excellent and lightweight mountaineering tents made from a waterproof breatheable material. The frame is erected inside the tent. They are smallish though so you better really like your hiking partner. I find the North Face VE-25 a more comfortable tent by a long shot, but it's a heavy load even for two.

Crampons are pretty basic gear. Know how to put them on and make sure they are properly fitted to your boots before leaving on the trip...it sucks something awful to have to stand and wait while a hiking companion fiddles with his gear. Front points are not really necessary unless you are planning on ice climbing, but crampons without them are getting hard to find.

Snowshoes can often take the place of crampons, especially modern crampon fitted ones. They can also prevent the energy sapping postholing mentioned previously. But its another pile of weight you need to carry.

Ski poles are a great aid in hiking in most terrain, but when you get above treeline, they are much less useful and are useless if you should fall on a slope and need to self arrest. An ice axe is critical in those conditions. Another hefty item that is far less useful below treeline. Don't carry both.

Snow anchors for tenting.
There are specific snow-stakes which work well, but it is often a better idea to use items you need to carry anyhow like your snowshoes. ice axes and even stuff sacks filled with snow and buried.

If you plan on building snow caves or igloos you will need shovels and a snow-saw or two to make blocks with. There are lightweight tools that work well, but an aluminum grain scoop shovel moves a lot more snow than the small shovels made for mountaineering. The weight is an issue though.

A pee bottle is a nice thing on long winter nights, and taking care of bowel movements is a somewhat more complicated issue as well. Often that grain scoop shovel comes in handy. Deposit several inches of packed snow on it. Do your business on that in the tent or shelter vestibule and then fling it out away from the travelling path or water/snow gathering area. Fun, fun, fun.

EVERYTHING is more complicated in the Winter.



A white gas stove is a virtual necessity, something like the MSR XGK or a Whisperlite are the way to go. You'll also need plenty of extra fuel to melt snow for cooking and drinking. This sucks because fuel weighs almost as much as water. Only experimentation will tell you how much fuel you are going to need per day, but you will need to at least double your three season amounts. Of course a water filter is useless in the Winter, so you save that weight.

[StarLyte]

This is priceless information.

Thanks for posting Iceman.

[Jack Tarlin]

Iceman's post pretty much covered it. A few odds and ends:

Remember that in wintertimre, it's much liklier that you'll take LONGER to get where you're going than you might think; whether you're in a shelter or tent, if it's cold and wet in the morning, you'll likely leave later in the morning, take more time to break camp, etc. If you come to a shelter and it's cold or wet, you'll be more likely to take an extended break, wait til the weather improves, etc. And if you get to a shelter in mid-afternoon and the next one is seven or eight miles down the Trail, you may well stop for the day, i.e. end the day prematurely, especially if the weather has been rough.

So for all these reasons, I'd carry extra rations and fuel as a stretch may well take a day or two longer than you might have planned, or you might even have to hole up somewhere for half a day or more. And there WON'T be a whole lot of other folks out there if you run out of food or fuel; in the winter, you really have to expect to be self-reliant.

Likewise, as Iceman aid, everything is different in wintertime. Bring extra batteries. Bring a spare lighter or firestarter. Absolutely bring the best maps you can find as it's mich easier to lose the Trail in winter, miss a snow-covered blaze, etc.

I'd also consider packing some extra clothes, such as an additional pair of socks, or even an extra set of long underwear. Keep in mind that you should ALWAYS have something warm and dry to change into at the end of the day, so if you only have one pair of long underwear, or only one warm hat, remember, if you get it soaked during the day either from sweat or the elements, you will NOT have a warm dry outfit at day's end. So I'd pack an extra set, or I might start the day with my warmest stuff on, but I'd take it off shortly before it got all sweated out.

Don't neglect to drink enough water. Most folks tend to drink a lot less when it's colder out, and this is a mistake. Dehydration leads to fatigue which leads to mis-judgment and accidents, and you can't afford too many mis-judgments when you're out in the winter.

If you bring along gadgets such as GPS devices or phones, DON'T due this in place of other emergency stuff, such as provisions and spare clothes. Electronic devices tend to fail or break at the worst possible times.....if you get in a jam in the wintertime, a phone might save your life, but it almost always your own common sense, initiative, and preparedness that will make the real difference in an emergency. I.e., don't take for granted that someone will come along and bail you out; it might not work out that way.

Lastly, leave a detailed trip itinerary with someone reliable so that if you're seriously overdue or don't check in at a reasonable time, someone will know approximately where you are and where you're heading. (This does NOT mean
leaving a note on your windshield which can either get lost, go unseen for two weeks, or invite someone to break into your car.....it means letting someone reliable AT HOME know where you are, where you're going, and when you're likely to be thru with your trip. And of course, don't neglect to stay in touch with these folks so they don't send out the cavalry needlessly).

[TJ aka Teej]

Advice from me would fall into the "bad example" catagory :D
I can't improve on the posts by Iceman and Jack. Following Starlyte's example I can send you to WB member Mags, out in CO, who is a very good guy to talk to about winter hiking.

[icemanat95]

Jeez, thanks guys.

I'm not sure there is a way to go lightweight in the Winter. You can go lighter than expedition weight, but there is just a certain amount of stuff that you just plain need.

Jacks point about having to shorten up your itinerary plans is well founded and was something I wanted to say but had to get soomething else done. Don't count on making 2 MPH or more in the winter, you aint a gonna do it. even with a well packed trailbed you are going to be closer to 1 MPH than 2 or even below it if the trail isn't packed, has blow downs, etc. The days are also shorter. The sun comes up up here at about 7am ish, but with heavy cloudcover, maybe not enough to wake you up. The sun goes down between 3 and 4 ish and it's downright dark by 5pm this time of year. You want to basically be set up and in camp by that point. That doesn't really leave all that much time for hiking. You are going to get maybe 6 good hours, 7 if you move out fast in the morning and don't waste much time during the day. If you go for an Alpine start you could get 10 or 12, but you better know your gear real well because you are going to be breaking camp in the dark and you can't afford to leave anything behind.

On long underwear. I actually tend to wear my damp clothes dry in camp if I can. If I can get warm and stay warm in camp, wearing my damp clothes until they dry is far more efficient for me than peeling them off and getting into dry stuff then putting on the damp stuff again the next day....YUCK! But this ONLY applies if I can get and stay warm.

Your boots WILL freeze at night and there ain't a nothin' you can do about it. With double boots you can take the liners inside your sleeping bag, but it's really not practical to take the boots themselves in. To prevent full on freeze up, fill two water bottles with boiling water and stick them into your boots. Wrap the boots in some spare clothing to insulate them and go to sleep.

If your sleeping bag is marginal for warmth, take a water bottle and fill it with boiling hot water. Wrap it in a sock and put it in your sleeping bag. This is where your choice of nalgene water bottles pays off as there ain't no way a properly closed nalgene will leak. Try this with a pepsi bottle and your insulation better be Polarguard.

I normally do not advocate bringing any sort of musical electronics with you in the backcountry, but in the Winter you are going to spend most of your day in the shelter and it'll get effing boring as hell. An mp3 player and some sort of e-book reader that you can change the batteries on may not be a bad investment. Having a companion who thought of such things while you didn't sucks...they'll be enjoying their head space while you twiddle your thumbs in boredom....serious suckage. A little extra weight in the novel and music department may help you hold onto your sanity during a long snowstorm.

Your snowshovel can make an acceptable snow-sled. Really. You've got to work the angles a bit, but it works well enough. There are some great trails near Grey Knob cabin that make excellent sled runs in the winter. Sledding by headlamp is a trip.

A nice sloping snowfield with a good and safe run-out is an excellent place to practice your self arrests. If you don't know what a self-arrest is or how to do one and do not recognize the importance of practicing them regularly and with your pack on, you really ought not to be out above treeline in the winter.

Learn how to treat deep puncture wounds in your calf and achilles tendon. Spend enough time in front point crampons and you will eventually stab yourself in the calf. There are no safe ends on an ice axe. A properly tuned one has a sharp point at one end, a chisel point at the other and an adze blade opposite the chisel. That sucker is all full of bad news should you fail to keep it under control.

Wind chill is a nuisance standing in a parking lot fiddling with your keys or pumping gas; it'll kill you on top of Mt. Washington in January or February. There are few things that suck so bad as having the sweat in your eyelashes flashfreeze them together when a gust of wind strips your goggles off.

Pursuant to the point above. Your goggles should be on a tether to your parka,but never to your pack. It is possible you may need to jettison your pack in an emergency and you DON"T want to lose your goggles too.

When setting up a tent above treeline, the first part of your tent body that comes out of the stuffsack should be a guy-out point next to the main door and before anything further comes out of the sack, that guyout point should be securely staked down to a substantial anchor. As soon as the next guyout point comes out, stake it down also. When it comes time to take out the tent fly, the same guyout point should come out first and be immediately put to use. The wind can strip these big cloth sails out of your hands in an instant and it really sucks to be you if your tent or fly sails off into the Great Gulf.

Avalanches can occur on slopes of as little as 30 degrees and you don't want to be anywhere nearby when it happens. Pay attention. When wet snow is packed on top of light fluffy powder, you have a nice recipe for disaster.

Take advantage of resources like the caretaker at Grey Knob cabin for weather reports and avalanche reports/advisories. Ascending Mt. Washington, that info is available at Pinkham Notch, the Harvard Cabin and Hermit Lake Shelters as well. Use it.

The Weather Observatory at the summit of Mt. Washington may be staffed year round, but that doesn't mean they can hear you banging on the doors if you get in trouble. The wind up there regularly tears up chunks of rime ice and smashes them into the building, so you pounding may go un-noticed in the general cacophany, so don't count on the Observatory staff for help.

Hypothermia sneaks up on you. By the time you are hypothermic you are in no fit state to self-diagnose, which is why you always travel with a partner and do regular buddy checks looking for signs of hypothermia, exhaustion and frostbite.

Those little chemical toe and hand warmers can save your fingers, toes and maybe your life. Keep a set of each in your first aid kit.

This is a little tactical advice...You and your buddy should try to pack your gear similarly and be familiar with how one another packs and what one another carries so that your buddy can use your gear efficiently should something happen to you and vice versa. Simple things like first aid kits, batteries, stoves, etc. should all be well labelled and consistently located so there is no fumbling to find stuff and figure out how to use it.

Know how to use a map and compass and set them up before you leave the trailhead. Figuring out the proper magnetic declination when you are cold and the wind is gusting in white out conditions at 5000 feet is not a good thing. Trace Magnetic north on the map in red ink before leaving home so you can navigate by magnetic bearings. Take and write in the magnetic bearings for the major trail legs you are planning to travel so that in white-out conditions you can leapfrog with your partner along a magnetic bearing that closely follows the actual trail. It's amazing how easy it is to step off a freakin cliff when visibility drops to a few feet or so.

I've learned a lot of this by screwing up. We almost lost our tent fly into the Great Gulf one evening setting up camp below Thunderstorm Junction. I managed to hold onto it and reel it back in, but that was a very near-run thing.

I've also gone hypothermic on Mt. Washington in October when I was just starting out hiking...very bad experience.

Frostbite, frozen eyelashes, and a number of other issues have all cropped up. I've said this before and I'll say it again...one of the greatest advantages of the written language is the ability to communicate our mistakes so that others don't have to repeat them. One of the greatest disservices you can do to yourself or your kids is to "let them make their own mistakes" because inevitably most of those mistakes have been made before and written about.

I'll try to post other stuff as I think of it.

[Wolf - 23000]

Wolf23000 and Weathercarrot are cold weather hikers too. PM them.

Sounds like you know what you're doing.

Good luck - and have fun.

I've done a good amount of winter hiking but Weathercarrot ??? Every time I ask him to take a winter trip, he always tell me it's too cold. lol

Wolf

[Blue Jay]

Wow, you are properly named. Your posts on this subject are amazing. You've taken a huge amount of very important knowledge, condensed it, and explained it very very well. The only thing I would disagree with is the frozen boot thing. I once had the water bottles freeze in the boots and had an antihell of a time getting them out (had to start a fire). Although it is not always comfortable I always sleep with them. I can take the joy of putting on frozen clothes and running down the trail to get them unfrozen. I cannot take frozen boots. The hypothermia thing is very important, the first sign is often stupidity, therefore you have little defence, because you may never know what kills you. If you cannot find anyone to go with you, at least allow yourself to become hypothermic under safe controlled conditions so you can be aware of how your particular brain shuts down. Then when you are well aware of your individual symptoms, you can recognise them, know you are getting stupid and get warm before you its too late. Knowledge IS much more important than equipment. The most important bit is know when to turn around and go back.

[mythicyeti]

I thought I'd chip in on what baselayers are best for cold weather activities.

Synthetics are not all equal. Some have spandex or lycra in them that helps them fit better which equalls more warmth at the expense of retaining more moisture as the spandex and lycra are little sponges.

Wool also absorbs more moisture than synthetics but gram for gram is warmer than any synthetics out there. It also has some natural anti-smell properties which are nice 5 days into the expedition.

I prefer synthetics with a little stretch (lycra/spandex) for high output areobic activities and wool for anythig longer than a day. I almost never use synthetics that don't have a lycra/spandex component as they don't fit me very well (therefore they don't retain heat as well). Wool can be a bit pricey but I think it pays of in better warmth to weight ratio and it alows me to take fewer pieces on extended trips as the smell factor is much better.

Cheers!

[WalkinHome]

I am with Blue Jay on the boots. If possible get a larger than usual sleeping bag so that you can put your boots (wrapped in one of those grocery store plastic bags with some cloth inside to absorb any water) in the bottom of your bag along with some of the clothes you will put on in the morning. Might be a bit cramped but well worth it. You can always do a double (2) hot water bottle thing with Nalgenes NOTE: be extra careful to tighten the lid over any existing ice in the threads because if you don't the ice will melt and the water will leak out into your bag-not a good thing!

One thing Jack touched on but did not elaborate on is this: Under the right (wrong?) conditions, you may encounter all sorts of evergreen trees on both sides of the trail that are weighed down with snow and cross over the trail making you bull through or forcing you to climb over or under the resulting cross. This is a simple thing in summer but be advised it is very energy/stamina draining in snowshoes and a pack. VERY!! All of these things can combine to make your hike extremely difficult and blow your whole "plan". Remember, no plan ever survives contact with the enemy.

Be Safe

[The Old Fhart]

Icemanat95, Jack, and others, have pretty much covered the subject but here are a few thoughts.

-Not only have map and compass, and know how to use them, but check for possible escape routes along the trail you plan to follow. One common mistake winter hikers make when the weather gets really bad on the lower Crawford Path (A.T. N/S of Mispah Hut) is to go away from the westerly wind into the Dry River area where they won’t be found for days instead of going a few miles west to the Mt. Clinton Road where they can walk out easily.

-Know the area you will be hiking in. Get as much current information as possible. If you know someone has hiked the same trail the week-end before and it hasn't snowed since, you probably won't have to break trail, which is slow and energy consuming. If possible, avoid going out after heavy snow storms or when a bad storm is moving in. Use common sense.

-Be prepared to turn back or cancel the trip if at any time it is beyond the capacity of the weakest member of the group. Doing the trip is optional, coming back alive is the goal.

-Don’t go alone and don’t separate. A minimum safe group is 4 people. Each person should be pretty much self-contained (although it is common to share tents and stoves). Always keep within sight and in communication distance. This could be greater below tree line but above tree line in windy, snowy conditions you might even want to be roped, some lightweight climbing rope is a very good idea. Any cord you carry should be bright colors to stand out against the snow.

-Never go out with any gear or food you haven’t tested in your back yard under similar temperature conditions. Just because a sleeping bag says it is good to 0° F doesn’t mean you’ll be comfortable in it or that it will fit with whatever you may be wearing at night. The 0° F down bag I have is wide and long so if I need a warmer bag on a trip, my 35° F down bag easily fits inside without compressing the insulation. Loft is a good indicator of warmth.

-Take 2 foam pads. You will lose a lot of heat through the snow under you if you don’t have adequate insulation there. Don’t rely on just a thermorest. If a thermorest leaks, you are basically lying on the ground and will be cold, no matter what you have for a sleeping bag.

-Carry food with higher fat content in winter. You will be burning more calories and high fat foods will help keep you warm all night. Also don’t try to diet on the trail, summer or winter, it is a recipe for disaster. Note that some foods like Powerbars can get stiff enough to resemble bricks in winter. Smaller bite-sized pieces of cheese and pepperoni make great snacks as you travel along.

-Water bladders and hoses can freeze solid. Consider where and how you will be carrying water or other drinks. Avoid diuretics (coffee, alcohol) that dilate blood vessels and help flush heat from the body core. Consider a small lightweight thermos and get one in a bright color, not white like one person I know.

-Organize your gear in stuff sacks. Not only will it help keep it dry and easy to find but if you have to get something out of your pack you will not end up with gear being blown away or lost in the snow. Pack the gear you will need first at the top of the pack or in a pocket where it will be quickly accessible.

-Don’t plan an over-ambitious trip. Not only is snowshoe travel much slower but in the Whites and other arboreal areas there are ‘spruce traps’. These are formed when evergreen branches are bent down and covered with snow creating large air-pockets or voids near the tree and under the surface snow. If you break through the snow into a spruce trap, it may take a long time (and your fellow hikers) to extricate you from the trap. What happens is your snowshoes get caught in the branches and you will have a hard time getting out.

-Read my article on WhiteBlaze about hypothermia (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=96956&postcount=24) and believe it can happen to you. Generally it is the other hikers around you who recognize you are getting hypothermic, not you.



Baltimore Jack-“If you bring along gadgets such as GPS devices or phones, DON'T due this in place of other emergency stuff, such as provisions and spare clothes.”

While I generally agree with the statement, GPSs and phones are not ‘gadgets’ but useful tool, just like snowshoes, and need to be understood and used properly. The reason I hadn’t posted earlier today was I spent the day out bushwhacking (while geocaching) and the GPS was an important tool to allow me to do this. We had compasses and maps as well but a GPS loaded with topo and road maps can be invaluable for back country navigation. Any piece of gear can fail and it is good to have extras of a lot of items. It is also important to have a good repair kit to cover most emergencies. Remember, even a simple zipper failure above tree line could kill you.

[John B]

This ranks as one of the most informative threads I've seen. Thanks for the great info.

My only suggestion is that this material should be put in a WB article for permanent reference.

[SGT Rock]

We can make an article out of this if someone wants to start doing the consolidation of the material and write it out.

[Sly]

YMMV

Gadget: an often small mechanical or electronic device with a practical use but often thought of as a novelty.

[The Old Fhart]

Sly-"Gadget: an often small mechanical or electronic device with a practical use but often thought of as a novelty."As long as you and Jack don't try to differentiate between GPS, cell phones, internal frame packs, Leki poles, watches (digital only, analog watches may be gizmos), water bladders, stuff sacks, gaiters, maps, compass, and numerous other 'gadgets' that hikers may carry, then the definition is fine.;)

[Fannypack]

As long as you and Jack don't try to differentiate between GPS, cell phones, internal frame packs, Leki poles, watches (digital only, analog watches may be gizmos), water bladders, stuff sacks, gaiters, maps, compass, and numerous other 'gadgets' that hikers may carry, then the definition is fine.;)

and OF , we know u know gadgets... Can I be your "son" :D for a hiking season so i can get some of that "gadget knowledge"?

[The Old Fhart]

Fannypack-"Can I be your "son":D for a hiking season so i can get some of that "gadget knowledge"?"You are certainly welcome but I remember the road trip to Maine in 1999 where Got Milk? and I tried to teach you how to say 'AYUH' without much success. ;)

[Fannypack]

You are certainly welcome but I remember the road trip to Maine in 1999 where Got Milk? and I tried to teach you how to say 'AYUH' without much success. ;)

AYUH, there i did it....

[jlb2012]

We can make an article out of this if someone wants to start doing the consolidation of the material and write it out.

one good article already exists : http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/winter/wintcamp.shtml

I picked this up from a recent post over on VFTT

[icemanat95]

We can make an article out of this if someone wants to start doing the consolidation of the material and write it out.

Since most of the volume here is mine, I'll consolidate it into an article if you'd like.

[TJ aka Teej]

VFTT
Supurb site for four season mountain climbing in the north east, with great contributors.

http://www.viewsfromthetop.com/index-vftt.html

[SGT Rock]

Since most of the volume here is mine, I'll consolidate it into an article if you'd like.

Thanks Iceman, go for it.

[Heater]

Wow! Great posts. :)

[The Old Fhart]

Icemanat95-"Since most of the volume here is mine, I'll consolidate it into an article if you'd like."I'll certainly second that suggestion. Get it together and let everyone comment on it. Sounds like a plan.

[highway]

You 4th season hikers are masochistic animals:D

I'm concerned if I awake and there is a light dusting of snow around me :)

[The Old Fhart]

Highway-"You 4th season hikers are masochistic animals:D
I'm concerned if I awake and there is a light dusting of snow around me:)" On the other hand, I'd freak out if I woke up and saw Christmas lights on a palm tree!;)

P.S.- In NH we only have 2 seasons-winter and 3 months of damn poor sledding!:D

[Lone Wolf]

P.S.- In NH we only have 2 seasons-winter and 3 months of damn poor sledding!:D[/QUOTE]

How would you know? You ain't too far north of Boston. Spend a winter making snow at Jay Peak then talk to me about winter.:D

[highway]

On the other hand, I'd freak out if I woke up and saw Christmas lights on a palm tree!;)
:D

Really??????
Then why are so many of your northern brethern, so fondly referred to by us as as our temporal "snowbirds" down here enjoying that very same view in the winter?

Do you suppose its because they can do it outside along one of our sunny beaches wearing shorts and tank top, sporting sun glasses and sandals, frolicking in the surf, smiling at that view, smugly wondering about all those unfortunates still up north shovelling their way out in the morning, only to get far enough out to try and remember under just which mound of snow was their car parked?

My father came from Michigan's Upper peninsula. Now those folks REALLY know what snow is. I cant even imagine what our Canadian brethern suffer in winter-those of them that arent here too:D

So, I invite you to come on down and see it for yourself. You temporal "snowbirds" keep our taxes LOW!

[The Old Fhart]

Lone Wolf-"How would you know? You ain't too far north of Boston. Spend a winter making snow at Jay Peak then talk to me about winter.:D "Ah, I may live 'south' now but I'm originally from north of the White Mountains. I remember one Feburary where the average daytime high temps for the entire month were zero degree F and I saw overnight temps of -36 degrees F at my house.

As to Jay Peak, I'm familiar with that little hill. There is a lot of lake effect snow but I'll wager my 4 winters on Mount Washington had far more severe weather than you'll ever see. Did they hire you to blow the snow onto the slopes? ;)

[copythat]

You 4th season hikers are masochistic animals:D

I'm concerned if I awake and there is a light dusting of snow around me :)

yeah, well, we're not big on alligators. ;)