"I'll second all that. If there were a reasonably sturdy external-frame pack with a load capacity of, say, 3500 cubic inches and a total weight of 2.5 lbs or less, I'd buy it in a flash."

So this came off of the general forum and since the manufactures are either behind the times or not intersted in servicing small groups of hikers, making your own seems to be the best alternative. So why not have a brainstorming post about this?...
The first idea is to buy an old frame and using that as the basic. I tried this once with an old but super cool Jansport, but it was too small and the frame was actaully contoured to fit your back. (Realistically, if Jansport were to reintroduce that backpack in which I have no clue the model or year, this topic would be over.) Is there any reason a normal frame would not work?
The next challange would be to modernize the attachment points. Any ideas this could be done? My idea would be to attach the shoulder straps to the usual bar but then attach them to the pack (maybe just a webbing sleeve on the pack) as well for adjustment and include load lifters as well. The hip belt just needs to be attached but side load tensioners would be included.
The bag would be pretty personal and if you can sew a backpack then sewing your own bag for this would seem to be real easy. My first idea would be a real simple rectangle with a shovel pocket (because I love shovel pockets) a drawstring closure and no lid. I would include that gap below the pack that many externals have. That way you could pack everything inside for the summer and pack the sl bag on the ouside for winter.
Has anyone tried to refurbish an old frame? any other ideas? PLEASE no one mention Luxurlylite... I know they exist already.
TB

I disassembled my old Camp Trails the other day to check out the possibilities. What I found is that the basic frame (including essential parts like shoulder strap and hip belt) still came to about 3 pounds. The "pack bag" weighs about 20 oz.

At a bit over 4 lbs total, it's not obscenely heavy -- there are lots of packs far heavier than this -- but well outside the "lightweight" or "ultralight" category.

My new GG Nimbus Ozone weighs 3 lbs exactly, so there wasn't much point pursuing it further. Looking at the design of the Camp Trails frame, I really couldn't think of any simple hack or redesign that would have trimmed the weight significantly. The Camp Trails frame is somewhat overdesigned. It would probably survive a drop off a cliff.

To me, it is obvious that if starting from scratch Titanium and especially Carbon graphite need to be considered as materials of choice, although Aluminum can't be completely dismissed. The problem with the old packs is that, as mentioned, they will survive a drop off a cliff and still haul 100 pounds of gear. UL requirements would fall more into the 35 pound max capacity and surviving a three foot drop - from wearing height. Losing the bulletproof properties of larger diameter and thick walled tubing, frame length, extra crossmembers, cordura packbags, too many pockets etc would definitely result in a much lighter external pack, but one that could still incorporate the load transfer dynamics of a true external.

DIYing all this is quite a task however.:eek:

To me, it is obvious that if starting from scratch Titanium and especially Carbon graphite need to be considered as materials of choice, although Aluminum can't be completely dismissed. The problem with the old packs is that, as mentioned, they will survive a drop off a cliff and still haul 100 pounds of gear. UL requirements would fall more into the 35 pound max capacity and surviving a three foot drop - from wearing height. Losing the bulletproof properties of larger diameter and thick walled tubing, frame length, extra crossmembers, cordura packbags, too many pockets etc would definitely result in a much lighter external pack, but one that could still incorporate the load transfer dynamics of a true external.

DIYing all this is quite a task however.:eek:

My thoughts exactly.

"DIYing all this is quite a task however.:eek:"
Not realy... Its part of the fun. Making gear is a hobby into itself. I have made a kayak that does not work very well at all, however the act of making it was worth the time (I'm still going to dissasemble it though). Making gear is not about saving money or time, its about having fun making a functional product that is unique.
Terrapin... How much did the frame without shoulder straps or hip belt weigh. I've bought an exernal hip belt and they are heavy. Making a hip belt that still works sould cut weight. I believe that a breathable exernal frame would be worth an extra pound in the summer. I'm not that concerned about weight, but drilling might save a little weight. This would definately not be UL but externals rarely are UL, but a nice cool summer pack would be nice.
TB

Terrapin... How much did the frame without shoulder straps or hip belt weigh.

I don't know. I didn't disassemble it that far. I like the shoulder straps and hip belts on that pack, so it would not have occurred to me to replace or redesign them.

Initially I had toyed with the idea of having a lightweight pack-bag made to hang off the Camp Trails frame. But the pack-bag is only 20 oz... so that idea went by the wayside.

To me, it is obvious that if starting from scratch Titanium and especially Carbon graphite need to be considered as materials of choice, although Aluminum can't be completely dismissed. The problem with the old packs is that, as mentioned, they will survive a drop off a cliff and still haul 100 pounds of gear. UL requirements would fall more into the 35 pound max capacity and surviving a three foot drop - from wearing height. Losing the bulletproof properties of larger diameter and thick walled tubing, frame length, extra crossmembers, cordura packbags, too many pockets etc would definitely result in a much lighter external pack, but one that could still incorporate the load transfer dynamics of a true external.

DIYing all this is quite a task however.:eek:Wonder if you could use aluminum tent poles And arrow shafts to construct such a frame...

Luxury Lite will sell just the external carbon and aluminum frame and you can put your own bag on it....

Wonder if you could use aluminum tent poles And arrow shafts to construct such a frame...

Golf shafts came to mind(golf is my first mistress), and the 3 year old low end graphite ones can be had for less than $10 each. Arrow shafts might be usable too. I'm going to look into it a bit later in the spring when I have some more time. Ultimately a one piece frame laid up with carbon fiber(or at least the tubes joined by carbon fiber gussets) is the way to go, that way it can be "cooked" into a solid piece and mechanical joints can be avoided. Not enough time at present to pursue it. My back is doing much better and I'm probably back to work in a couple weeks, so I'll be busy getting ready to travel out to the jobsite next week. Life is sometimes so busy - makes me want to just... Nah! 2010, that's the plan. Got to stick to the plan.

I did R&D for Peak 1 in 1989--1990 and used an external of about 4,500ci. which is too big for todays thru hike standards but it used the flexable nylon Peak 1 frame. I assisted in the developement of the suspension system and it did have load lifters and hip belt load tensioners. I no longer have the pack and I don't remember how much it weighed but it was the most comfortable pack that I've ever worn. Started up Springer with 72lbs. (not very knowledgable then) and was down to 40lbs by Damascus which was light for 1990. I would be very interested in building another!
geek

I talked to a guy - T-back from Florida, I believe - who made an old Jansport frame into an external version of a gearskin. Looked pretty good, too!

I keep going back and forth on my old CampTrails external. I know the frame's heavy, but the pack itself is pretty heavy too so I've been thinking up ways to reduce that. And I'm not going to spend $300+ on a LL. Just not going to happen.

Anyway, the frame/gearskin idea is a good one I think, but I haven't tried it yet. The other option I thought about was just using the frame, a couple long straps, and putting everything in sil stuff sacks. No pack necessary.

I ended up using parts of a Z-pack (backpanel and hip belt) to make my own gearskin knockoff. I made sure the shoulder strap attachments were high enough - I have shoulder problems, which is why I've stuck with the old external as long as I have. This thing carries like a DREAM. I could barely feel 50 lbs. in it - that's with NO weight on my shoulders and a pretty minimal hip belt. So I'm in no hurry to mess with designing another one at this point, but I may mess with it sometime just to see what I can come up with.

anyway I winced too when i bought mine but unless things have changed at LL then its a pack for life....mine has already been replaced for free after some simplistic changes were made, then the latest hipbelt arrived at the house again for free.......i just looked at a mountainhardware external frame pack at one of the outfitters in Damascus...it was 240ish dollars, was heavier, and didnt have the compartmentalization that that the LLP offers. I've had several converts and one person who couldnt get it to work for them.
As far as longevity goes if you get one get the cordura cylinders...they should last forever unless stolen or burned.

I did R&D for Peak 1 in 1989--1990 and used an external of about 4,500ci. which is too big for todays thru hike standards but it used the flexable nylon Peak 1 frame. I assisted in the developement of the suspension system and it did have load lifters and hip belt load tensioners. I no longer have the pack and I don't remember how much it weighed but it was the most comfortable pack that I've ever worn. Started up Springer with 72lbs. (not very knowledgable then) and was down to 40lbs by Damascus which was light for 1990. I would be very interested in building another!
geek

I was envisioning something along the lines of the Peak 1 but using a LOT less material in the frame and using carbon graphite instead of nylon, although a hybrid using other materials might offer the best solution. I don't see the major manufacturers being in any rush to spend money on external frame pack R&D these days. Sounds like a possible cottage industry - aka expensive hobby.

I posted this before doing much internet research. In 02 when I hiked, Kelty and Dana Designs just introduced some real kick ars externals... Now is completely different. Kelty does not use that design, Dana got absorbed into marmot/k2 and the pack dissapeared, camp trails dissapeared... It appears that asside from Kelty and Jansport the external is dissapearing altogether from mainstream pack makers. Mountain hardware apparently used an external frame, but looses the breathability and is definately heavy.
For me... I got lucky. My wife had an intersting Acedemy (cheap stuff) internal with a tubular frame. The tubular frame is just a "U" shaped peice of tubular aluminum with a bend in the overall shape. It weighs 7.5 oz and has no attachment holes. This frame will make it a little bit more difficult but is what I will most likely start with. As far as the pack bag, I'm in a mini debate between gear skin with dedicated bags or just a dedicated bag. The difference in weight is minimal, so I might try the gear skin and two sizes of pack bags. Regardless... Should be a fun project that I have wanted to try for a while.
TB

I posted this before doing much internet research. In 02 when I hiked, Kelty and Dana Designs just introduced some real kick ars externals... Now is completely different. Kelty does not use that design, Dana got absorbed into marmot/k2 and the pack dissapeared, camp trails dissapeared... It appears that asside from Kelty and Jansport the external is dissapearing altogether from mainstream pack makers. Mountain hardware apparently used an external frame, but looses the breathability and is definately heavy.

The Osprey Atmos series are interesting. I just didn't like the design of the pack-bag. Plus the straps and hip belt were a bit marginal. But the frame itself is very innovative, and for me, quite comfortable.

:) i like frameless rucks:cool: neo

I posted this before doing much internet research. In 02 when I hiked, Kelty and Dana Designs just introduced some real kick ars externals... Now is completely different. Kelty does not use that design, Dana got absorbed into marmot/k2 and the pack dissapeared, camp trails dissapeared... It appears that asside from Kelty and Jansport the external is dissapearing altogether from mainstream pack makers. Mountain hardware apparently used an external frame, but looses the breathability and is definately heavy.
For me... I got lucky. My wife had an intersting Acedemy (cheap stuff) internal with a tubular frame. The tubular frame is just a "U" shaped peice of tubular aluminum with a bend in the overall shape. It weighs 7.5 oz and has no attachment holes. This frame will make it a little bit more difficult but is what I will most likely start with. As far as the pack bag, I'm in a mini debate between gear skin with dedicated bags or just a dedicated bag. The difference in weight is minimal, so I might try the gear skin and two sizes of pack bags. Regardless... Should be a fun project that I have wanted to try for a while.
TB

I am waiting on a gearskin to come. I would have tried to make one, but I do not trust my skills on something like that for my thru yet.

I was thinking about using a sandwich shape instead of a taco. As in a piece that comes off instead of folds over. I think that would allow more compression at the bottom. You could also completly open the bottom, sides, or the top. Instead of the top and the sides only.

Shoot me a PM if you want a few thoughts about the gearskin when I get it.

"I was thinking about using a sandwich shape instead of a taco. As in a piece that comes off instead of folds over."
The only problem with that is that the weight will want to fall to the bottom too much. It will end up smacking in the butt opposed to sitting on top of your butt. Also, your sleeping bag tends to sit on the bottom and fill it completely not requiring compression. If you are using two compression straps on the other sides, try using three on the bottom and ladder locks intead of buckles. My "gear skins" also enclose the bottoms with small side pannels. This pack will basically look like my panniers http://www.backpacking.net/makegear/panniers/index.html
Don't doubt your sewing abilities. Especially gear skins are real easy to make. The hardest part of any pack is the backpannel and most people try UL instead of just L and forego frames wich makes them much easier to make. Shoulder straps are a pain as well but can be purchased. Try one out of cheap materials and then make one with real materials... you will probably like the second one enough to use it. Packs are hard but fun to make. The frame I aquired is good enough, so this pack is now "full speed ahead".
TB