Thought this might be of interest to someone.

I did spend some time(a lot) a few years ago researching methods to make an emergency fire if needed. I spend alot of time in rugged areas along rivers and streams and have fallen on occasion but no serious injuries luckily. Never know when and where you may have to survive a night or two before help comes to your rescure or you are able to help yourself out of a life endangering situation.

I wanted to have something that I could have with me everyday of the year, year after year and have a feeling of security when Im out and about in the woodlands. Most of the time I'm offtrails bushwacking if you will.

Commercial items for firemaking were always too bulky to carry with me on my person 24/7. I ventured out to make my own.

This is my "Ultimate Firestarter" (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/lifesaver004.jpg) I carry it on my keyring. The striker for it is a stainless steel single edge rasor blade that I keep in my wallet. Also in my wallet, I keep 1 tablespoon of powdered magnesium that is hermeticaly sealed in a poly film. Flattened out, it is as thick as two credit cards and is dimensionaly the same size as a credit card and weighs the same as a credit card. (I think I said that right) the use of magnisium is taught by Dr. Andre F. Bourbeau, author of the commentary given below. I wish every backpaker, hiker, outdoors men and women would read this information, It could save your lives.

Here is some information you may find interesting and inspiring:


Fire and Rain
by
Dr. André F. Bourbeau


In my opinion, knowing how to start a fire and how to keep it going in a drenching downpour is one of the absolutely essential survival skills. No one is going to make ME believe that I can go out there in freezing rain at about 0 degrees Celsius, after it's been raining for days, pile up some half frozen and sogging wet debris for hours to make a debris hut, crawl in with non-waterproof clothes on, and not fall victim to hypothermia in very short order. Been there, done it - just doesn't work! I speak from experience. I've slept out with no gear whatsoever in that precise kind of weather, at the very least, 100 times in the past 25 years.
When the going gets rough, and days of freezing rain, sometimes followed by -35 degrees is just about as rough as it gets, the only thing that will save your life is fire. Noted survival expert, Tom Elpel, just came back from a 4 day walkabout. How did he spend each night? By a fire. I do the same, and any experienced outdoorsman will also do the same.
Fire, fire, fire - you've got to become a pyromaniac. It's the only way to survive! Freezing rain is worse than deep cold, because you can't even build a snow cave or snow shelter...
If there's material for a debris hut, that means there are trees, and if there are trees, there is firewood, and if there is firewood, there is fire. And if there are no trees, and everything is soaking wet and freezing cold, and you have no rain gear or shelter, sorry folks, but your luck has just run out.
Just like bough beds - make me laugh! Just try lying on one of those soggy soaking wet beds made from dripping evergreen branches. You won't last 2 hours in really cold weather, I guarantee it.
So, if you want to survive, learn how to make a fire in the rain. Sorry, that just can't be learned by reading, you have to practice. Why practice when it's nice out? You don't need a fire then! It's when it's miserable and soggy and soaking wet and all your clothes are drenched that you need a nice big bright beautiful fire to dry you out and keep you warm. Please practice this skill during the worst thunderstorms you can find, close to camp. THIS is one skill which WILL save your life- even without shelter.
Out of 32 students who sign up for my bachelor's degree in outdoor adventure pursuits in their first year at the University of Quebec, on average, only 1 or 2 can successfully start a fire in the rain - and they all have experience. Imagine beginners... No wonder so many people die from hypothermia.
The problem is that everyone has learned to make a fire by picking out small twigs from conifers, then putting them on the fire one by one, then bigger ones, then bigger ones still - as if size of wood and leaving enough air were the only factors to consider when making fire. It isn't as simple as that. There is a lot more to this skill than meets the eye.
Of all the skills I teach, starting fire in the worst downpours (at least with matches, BIC lighters and a magnesium match) is on the very top of my list of priorities. I cannot EVER stress this enough. If you want to survive, LEARN THIS SKILL!
Best wishes for dry weather in the meantime.

Read entire comentary here (http://www.equipped.org/andre.htm)

Here is more information from the same site and I quote:


Sparks
The most reliable way to start a fire, though not the easiest for those with little or no experience, is with a commercially prepared (artificial) flint and steel (your knife will do for the steel, though some such fire starters come with their own). This is a practically unlimited resource that won't run out and that works in any weather.

The artificial flint used for such purposes is similar to the flints used in traditional cigarette lighters, but it is a somewhat harder alloy in order to give off hotter and more long lived sparks. It is comprised of a mixture of metals and rare earth elements, by weight approximately 20% Iron (Fe) with trace amounts, less than 3% each, of Zinc (Zn) and Magnesium (Mg) and the remainder a combination of rare earth elements, 50% of which is Cerium (Ce), the remainder primarily Lanthanum (LLa) and Neodymium (Nd) and trace amounts of some other rare earth elements. These are alloyed at high temperature and then extruded into rods of various diameters. When scraped with a hard, sharp edge a thin layer is scraped off and the resulting friction heats the scrapings up to the point of ignition, giving off an impressive shower of very hot sparks. Note that this scraper doesn't have to be steel, but the edge does have to be hard and sharp enough to scrape with. A broken piece of glass can be very effective, for example. The back edge of many knives works as well as the sharp edge, if it hasn't been eased.
By comparison, natural flint is a very hard quartz mineral, harder than most steels, which when struck on a sharp edge by steel or iron creates small sparks by removing and heating up the softer metal. These sparks are relatively weak and few in number, so making a fire with these requires a fair amount of skill and special tinders. Natural flint is a real pain in the you-know-what to use compared to the man-made variety. Fine for those re-enacting the experiences of the Old West's Mountain Men and the like, but not very practical for us today. Some manner of man-made flint should be part of every survival kit.
The longest lasting artificial flints are the conventional 1/2 inch diameter by 2 or 4 inch long flint rod, usually incorporating a cap or hole with a lanyard attached. Sometims there will be a steel scraper attached to the lanyard. More expensive versions may be fitted with a bone, antler or wooden handle. A bit large for anyone focused on minimum weight or size, but you'll get a massive shower of sparks with these large rods. They will last through hundreds of thousands of strikes, so for a survival situation using them up is impossible.


The entire article can be found at this site (http://www.equipped.org/devices28.htm)


Here is a photo of my "Ultimate Firestarter" (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/lifesaver004.jpg) it may ultimately help save my life. I have it with me always(there are ecceptions;) ) The one you see on my key ring has started countless fires and has served me well for three years. I replaced it today with one of the new ones shown in the photo.

During the time I spent as Assistant Scoutmaster, I furnished every scout in our troops with one of these firestarters and were taught firemaking principles using the spark method. If anyone is interested in owning one I'll make them available.

They are made of brass plated steel and have an insert made of man made flint,Ferrocerium. The insert is a replacable flint for welding torch ignitors. The brass thingy is a shelf support.

Practice your firemaking skills!!!!!! Stay Alive!!!!!


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.amazon.com/Swedish-Firesteel-Starter-Available-Colors/dp/B000IGC7SE

I picked one of these up at my local outfitter -- Great Outdoor Provision Company. It works great and gives real peace of mind.

I have been using these for years and they always work. My only caution is to keep the "flint" as dry as possible. The material corrodes over time and loses effectiveness. Painting it will clear fingernail polish will protect it.

I agree about the importance of being able to start a fire. Even with one match, many folks can't get a fire going quick enough in a hypothermia situation. Flint and steel does work. Just look at a bic (modern flint and steel). But of course, bics don't work when wet, but a real flint and steel will. Also, friction fire (bow drill, hand drill) are difficult in the rain. But you can still make them work if you're good enough and you have the right materials. Throw a photon light on your key chain with the fire starter, and you're even better off.

But there is a lot more than a spark maker. You have to have dry tinder, at least enough to get your fat lighter (resined pine heart) going. Keeping dry tinder is always important. Also, you can read the weather and not get caught by a storm, having a dry store of tinder (and bow/hand drill or fire plow) available.

One point of disagreement in the quote above.... you can certainly build or find a natural shelter in most situations that will keep you dry. It's too bad that guy never made a dry debris hut. They aren't that hard, you just have to have the right materials. In the south, you can can shingle the pine bark from all the dead pines from the beetle infestations. That's highly effective with careful shingling. If you can build up enough debris (leaves, pine needles, sticks, bark, etc.) then it doesn't matter if you get wet because the loft will keep you warm, even when wet. It's not something I do just for fun, but in a rainy situation where dry tinder is hard to find a thick debris hut can keep you alive through the night.

The truth is, there's never just one way to do it. It all depends on the situation. Awareness of your surroundings is the most important asset to someone in a survival situation. Soon you learn that all around is food, warmth, companionship, and fires waiting to be born.

zelph,

Where did you get those little keyring flints at?

Ok,here is a fire question.First,I regularly start fires with the bow
drill which I made myself after alot of study and work-usually go from
zero to roaring campfire in about 7 minutes.I have NOT done it in the
rain and doubt that I even could.I DO carry matches dipped in wax and
in waterproof containers and have a blast match and sparkolite tinder
and/or Wetfire.Have never tried on a wet rainy day to build a fire with
anything other than Coleman fuel and it took LOTS of it.I am thinking I
could actually build a fire in the rain IF I accumulated enough heart
lightard pine and had a tool which would split wood so that the dry
inside would be exposed to the heat but I doubt many people in this
forum carry an axe or a knife big enough to get the job done.Also,I
question who in this forum would be "caught out" without a shelter and
a warm sleeping bag and some way of heating water in a bottle or for
something hot to drink?Am I missing something?I read the man's article
but didn't see any pointers on exactly how to make the fire and keep it
going-just what I needed to purchase and the fact that I needed to
"practice".Was there any specific "how to make and maintain a fire in the
rain" info that I missed in the article?Also,wouldnt you be better off to
pitch the tent,tarp,or hammock and get in it with your dry spare clothes
and a warm sleeping bag or am I missing something here?Thanks for a serious response.
Oldfivetango

I tend to be one who carries too much junk. I'm constantly marching around with an 18lb pack on my back even when I've no intention of spending the night.

Having said that, I enjoy basic goodies like firestarters for extreme conditions. I lived in Montana and Arizona where starting a fire was pretty easy year-round. I live in NW Oregon now, and starting a fire here in the winter is a real skill. Because of that I've become very opinionated about firestarters.

I like the Spark-Lite. I don't care for the Blastmatch. Why? Because where I live, if you don't have some sort of specialized tinder you sure aren't going to start a fire with sparks. Spark-Lite is light and small - you just might have it with you when you need it. Also, A Triox bar will light with a spark, so you can augment the tinder-fuzz with a bar that will burn long enough to dry out the natural tinder.

I still haven't figured out why someone would start a fire on a wet, rainy day? Hanging in the rain to try and keep warm doesn't make sense. Starting a fire, with wet wood, once it's stops raining would make more sense

Zelph, face it. You're a pyromaniac.

But quite seriously... in the context of AT hiking, I have a hard time imagining the "worse case" scenario you describe. As a last resort, for warmth, there's my tent and my sleeping bag. Unless I fall into a river with my pack on, the bag is not going to get wet. (And how many opportunities are there, on the AT, for falling into a river with yor pack on?)

You guys bring up some good points. I think that people need to have fire making skills. I for one know I need to improve mine. I think it is a good just in case skill. Something that you need to learn before you set out.

Who knows maybe you will become seperated from your pack/gear for a night (wouldn't be the first one), maybe all your gear gets wet, or maybe you become very chilled on winter hike. If anything else you can start a fire fast and impress your friends.

BTW, with the seatosummit bags and other layers I use I can stand on my pack in a river and be fine.

http://www.amazon.com/Swedish-Firesteel-Starter-Available-Colors/dp/B000IGC7SE

I picked one of these up at my local outfitter -- Great Outdoor Provision Company. It works great and gives real peace of mind.

I got mine fairly cheap on eBay and even use it to light my alcohol stove. Its lighter than a bic and works wet. I carry some fire starter too.

OK-confession time.I must admit to being a bit of a pyromaniac.
Actually it started in early childhood when it fell my duty to build
a fire every morning in the fireplace in winter.Never have played with
matches-still don't.Things I have learned about fire is that a fireplace
doesn't warm a home very well and a campfire will warm one side of
a person fairly well while the other side is quite cold.If it is raining very
hard I have serious doubts if even Davy Crockett or Daniel Boone could
keep one going unless they had a cave or outcropping to work from.I have
successfully made a fire when the rain quit and the woods were all wet but
it was only because we had about a 20 pound lightard stump to work with.
Go figure one of those in your worst case scenario.I have run the gamut of
fire starters from bowdrill,handrill,flint&steel,SparkOlite,BlastMatch,and the
lesser "scratch to light" mag blocks available at the mass retailers.By far
the BlastMatch puts out the most power BUT as a previous poster stated-
you still have to have some good tinder.(I like to use my homemade charcloth and delaminated jute twine).Considering all the above my worst
case scenario plan is as follows-pitch tarp/tent/hammock,heat&eat some noodles,heat some water and put it in the Nalgene,put the hot bottle in
the sleeping bag,change into dry clothes and wait out the weather.I have
a hard time with the concept of getting caught in the wilds unprepared.
My six week tenure as a Boyscout taught me to always be prepared.:D
Oldfivetango

Zelph,

Did you make the credit card sized magnesium package? I am really interested in that.

Never having been a boy scout, I do agree with their motto of always being prepared. As to the method of creating a spark or ignition, many things work, e.g. matches, lighters, flint 'n steel, etc. What I think is more important and has been well pointed out in this thread already is having good tinder. This could be something as simply carrying cotton balls soaked in vaseline in a 35 mm film cannister, some alcohol or white gas from your stove. I carry a few small cross section "rings" of bike innertube. It is multi-purpose and can effectively bind things together e.g. tent stakes, keep things from rattling in your pack and most importantly, it makes great tinder (ever seen car tires burning?) and weighs nearly nothing.

Also, in the northeast there is an abundance of white birch trees (a/k/a paper birches). No matter how wet the bark is, there are layers underneath that will always remain dry. You need not peel the bark off a tree, but merely find it lying on the ground... it is a great source of tinder as well. Greatest thing, no extra weight to carry.

I still haven't figured out why someone would start a fire on a wet, rainy day? Hanging in the rain to try and keep warm doesn't make sense. Starting a fire, with wet wood, once it's stops raining would make more sense

True, I agree with you. But what if you are in an environment where it may not stop raining for a week? Or just alternates between full rain and drizzle and never gets above 40*F. Once you get sheltered as much as possible, you face the fact that everything is wet. If you've got an Airforce Colonel buddy, call in a favor and have him napalm the area to dry it out enough to get a fire going. :)

A wet wood fire doesn't put out much heat, but it is comforting.

This happened to my brother.

He was trout fishing a stream in PA. He walked the bank and fished from it for a short distance. The bank was about 4 feet high and was undercut by the action of the water. The bank he was standing on gave way and down he went into the cold spring fed stream.

As he was falling he tried to grab onto anything, muscles working frantically, becomes exhausted by the time he is able to get himself out of the water.

He lost his glasses as soon as he hit the water. He is now visually impaired, mentally shaken by what has taken place, the loss of his equipment etc.

Now he begins to shiver. Tired muscles now tensing up uncontrollably. Shivering like he never shivered before. Instincs kick in. He begins to run back through the woods towards his truck thats about 10 to 15 min. away.

He said it was the scaryiest 15 min of his life. Got to his truck, got in and started it up and survived by the warmth of the trucks heater.

He survived the threats of hypothermia. He had his own dose of reality.

Later in his life he fell ill from smoking related causes and has gone the way of the earth.


Fire and Rain
by
Dr. André F. Bourbeau


Quote:
In my opinion, knowing how to start a fire and how to keep it going in a drenching downpour is one of the absolutely essential survival skills. No one is going to make ME believe that I can go out there in freezing rain at about 0 degrees Celsius, after it's been raining for days, pile up some half frozen and sogging wet debris for hours to make a debris hut, crawl in with non-waterproof clothes on, and not fall victim to hypothermia in very short order. Been there, done it - just doesn't work! I speak from experience. I've slept out with no gear whatsoever in that precise kind of weather, at the very least, 100 times in the past 25 years.
When the going gets rough, and days of freezing rain, sometimes followed by -35 degrees is just about as rough as it gets, the only thing that will save your life is fire. Noted survival expert, Tom Elpel, just came back from a 4 day walkabout. How did he spend each night? By a fire. I do the same, and any experienced outdoorsman will also do the same.
Fire, fire, fire - you've got to become a pyromaniac. It's the only way to survive! Freezing rain is worse than deep cold, because you can't even build a snow cave or snow shelter...
If there's material for a debris hut, that means there are trees, and if there are trees, there is firewood, and if there is firewood, there is fire. And if there are no trees, and everything is soaking wet and freezing cold, and you have no rain gear or shelter, sorry folks, but your luck has just run out.
.
Of all the skills I teach, starting fire in the worst downpours (at least with matches, BIC lighters and a magnesium match) is on the very top of my list of priorities. I cannot EVER stress this enough. If you want to survive, LEARN THIS SKILL!
Best wishes for dry weather in the meantime.





The wookie
One point of disagreement in the quote above.... you can certainly build or find a natural shelter in most situations that will keep you dry. It's too bad that guy never made a dry debris hut. They aren't that hard, you just have to have the right materials. In the south, you can can shingle the pine bark from all the dead pines from the beetle infestations. That's highly effective with careful shingling. If you can build up enough debris (leaves, pine needles, sticks, bark, etc.) then it doesn't matter if you get wet because the loft will keep you warm, even when wet. It's not something I do just for fun, but in a rainy situation where dry tinder is hard to find a thick debris hut can keep you alive through the night.


I've highlighted the words in the above quote by Dr. bourbeau that will show that just the debris hut alone will not save your lif. Fire is necessary along with the debris hut.

Even though it has been raining for days there is dry wood inside of the wet wood. You have to be able to get to that dry wood and make your tinder.

He teaches his students how to do that. Once you have your tinder you have to be able to light it. He teaches :
Of all the skills I teach, starting fire in the worst downpours (at least with matches, BIC lighters and a magnesium match) is on the very top of my list of priorities. I cannot EVER stress this enough. If you want to survive, LEARN THIS SKILL!

"Magnesium match" He indicates(elsewhere on the net) that at least 1 tablespoon of magnesium is required.

I carry that amount with me 24/7. Some may call me sissy, I call me Prepared.:)

Chewiegranola--Yes, I made the creditcard size packet of magnesium and I will post photos of what it looked like when I originally made it. I have to search my photo archives to find it. I know they are there;) but finding them is a task.

headchange4u-----The replacment flints were bought at a welding supply company locally.


oldfivetango---We will not have the luxury of determining the time and place of using fire in an emergency situation. Ask my brother. I have not walked the AT trails. From what I gather here on the forum, it's a super highway for backpackers and hikers. No need for fire skills during the busy season. Just a loud HELP!!!! will keep you secure. During the off season you should strongly consider knowing fire skills. I'm sure alot of diff. scenarios can be made up showing how things may occur that would put you in a threatning situation, ask my brother.
Your questions show me that you seek further knowledge which is good. I have not been able to get into his archives located on his internet site. It is at his site 5 years ago where I first learned in detail the information you seek.

When I find detailed info I will post it.

terrapin_too---I am a pyromaniac, I will survive!!!! For all of you on the AT I will pray for fine weather, no insects, fresh unpolluted water no mice or hungry bears. I recommend staying on the trails and no passing on the right:) Imagine----a bear chases you down one of the ravines, you drop your pack to scoot up a tree. The bear takes a greater interest in the goodies inside your pack. Your screaming and yelling aggrivates the bear and causes him to leave taking your pack with him. Inside your pack are your matches etc. You now feel safe to come down from the tree. The limb you are standing on breaks and gravity takes you down with ease. You sprain your wrist and ankle as you roll further down the ravine. Use your imagination to get youself back up the ravine or to the raging river at the bottom of it.

Everyones input is appreciated and welcomed. I'll post photos ASAP.

.

headchange4u-----The replacment flints were bought at a welding supply company locally.




Where did the little metal flint holders come from?

Zelph,
Are these the welding flints you spoke of?

http://www.hechinger.com/web/catalog/product_detail.aspx?pid=70797&cm_ven=Froogle&cm_cat=Welding&cm_pla=BernzOmatic&cm_ite=BernzOmatic-Torch%20Kits-70797&cid=6414803F01CC155E6AF6BA05CEF415FF

True, I agree with you. But what if you are in an environment where it may not stop raining for a week? Or just alternates between full rain and drizzle and never gets above 40*F. Once you get sheltered as much as possible, you face the fact that everything is wet. If you've got an Airforce Colonel buddy, call in a favor and have him napalm the area to dry it out enough to get a fire going. :)

A wet wood fire doesn't put out much heat, but it is comforting.

Here is my homemade knife, wood splitter, skinner/digger. I made it using a replacement blade for a tree limb lopper. I wear it on my belt when I'm on or off the trails most of the time.

I use it to split open the 3 inch wet limbs lying around, thats where you will find the dry wood. find them where you can. The dry wood is scraped with the knife or single edge razor blade to make tinder fluff. This knife is 1/4 inch thick. I whack it with another 3 inch limb when I use it as a splitter.

Photo one (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/skindigr001.jpg)

Photo two (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/skindigr002.jpg)

Photo three (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/skinner001.jpg)

Photo four (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/skinner005.jpg)

Photo five (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/skinner003.jpg)in it's sheath


ChewiegranolaZelph,

Did you make the credit card sized magnesium package? I am really interested in that.

Yes I made the card sized pack. Here are the photos. (can't believe I found them)

Photo one (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/ultimtfrstrt002.jpg)

Photo two (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/ultimtfrstrt008.jpg)

Photo two shows some of what I keep in my car emergency kit. I use lithium batteries. The rocket igniters work great with 9 volt battery. The flashlight(i made it) it justs pushes down onto the terminals of the battery. The little black rectangle thingy you see laying there is a terminal protecting cap(commercialy made just for that purpose) that is put on the battery while in storage. Stick an ignitor into the bag of magnesium and then touch the battry terminals to the wires and it will ignite if that is your choice of ignition.

Those are the flints that I was talking about.

Here are two photos showing magnesium shavings aflame on top of a dual flame alcohol stove. It's supported on a heavy gauge stainless steel mesh. It did not explode, that is not it's nature. The thread that was started in the other forum about magnesium being bad stuff was the beggining of an Urban Legend.

Photo one (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/magnesiummgwk001-1.jpg)

Photo two (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/magnesiummgwk002-1.jpg)

This thread is to spark an interest in your minds of the importance of fire making. There are viewers here that come from all over the place not just the AT.


headchange4uQuote:
Originally Posted by zelph http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=339469#post339469)
.

headchange4u-----The replacment flints were bought at a welding supply company locally.



Where did the little metal flint holders come from?

I got them from a local industrial surplus store. Hav'nt seen that type on the shelves at hardware stores recently. The new ones that I see are solid, no hole to stick the flint into


Ther is another post that I made earlier today, take a look.
.

Zelph,that was one impressive tool! How did you make the handle?
Where does one purchase cordura nylon?
Thanks,
Oldfivetango
ps I keeps my firestarter(and compass) in my pocket in case something
wants the pack.:D

me and my son max made a game out of the bow and drill when he was real young. i showed him the fruit crate tecnique. useing a crate to make the fireboard and socket and starting little fires on the kitchen floor on a piece of tin foil. smoke in ten strokes is the rule for having made a good bow.fire in 30. and tinder of te absolute highest quality can only be made by rubbing a peice of twine string to get fuzz. this fuzz lights with the spark from most any two rocks. 30 years of tinder trials, this is the best by a mile. a reletivly cold spark catches it with little skill needed.

I almost always carry the Boy Scout version of the ferro rod. The official Scout brand is called a Hot Spark. They go for under $3 but I saw someone selling them on Ebay for $5 plus shipping! I still use the one I bought my first summer at Boy Scout camp abbout 16 years ago.

A fluffed up cotton ball works the best for any type of ferro rod. When I teach this method of firestarting, I tell my students to make the cotton ball fluffy as a cloud.

I have also used char cloth with a ferro rod. MUCH easier than flint and steel.

Has anyone heard of a fire piston? I did a web search for these and found lots of cool info. I havent been able to find one for less than $30. That is a little more than what I want to spend on a fire starting tool.

In the words of Bevis and Butthead... "FIRE FIRE FIRE"

Fire Piston-yes,I have two.No,I would not carry one as
my primary source of life saving firestarter.Makes a nice
"parlor trick" though.Just my humble opinion.Problem is that
they require "tinder fungus" which quickly dries out and becomes
unusable.Then you get resourceful and use some tiny bits of
char cloth as the tinder(it goes inside the piston).If you are going
to do all that you might as well have flint and steel and/or a Blast
Match.I think I read that a Blast Match is actually about 4 times
hotter than a regular match.Don't forget to carry something in the
way of a tool that will split wood or no matter what you have may
all be a moot point if you can't get past igniting your tinder.Just my
2 cents.
Oldfivetango

I almost always carry the Boy Scout version of the ferro rod. The official Scout brand is called a Hot Spark. They go for under $3 but I saw someone selling them on Ebay for $5 plus shipping! I still use the one I bought my first summer at Boy Scout camp abbout 16 years ago.

A fluffed up cotton ball works the best for any type of ferro rod. When I teach this method of firestarting, I tell my students to make the cotton ball fluffy as a cloud.
In the words of Bevis and Butthead... "FIRE FIRE FIRE"

I agree about the cotton ball being the best, most readily available tinder for demos.

Jute twine is second best and can be used for a multitude of things around camp. Treat it with vaseline just like cotton balls and it becomes water resistant. I modified a Zippo lighter to use jute twine as the wick, no lighter fluid required, just roll the spark wheel and pooff. I removed the cotton and installed a sewing machine bobbin wrapped with a good amount of twine. I have that lighter in one of my 72 hour grab and run bags. It's a means of making a fire that needs no attention, no fuel(liquid) to evaporate, no batteries, just plain simple. It can be used by someone that has a disabillity, the use of only one hand. It's flint(ferro rod) and steel plus fuel in a compact storage container. I have photos of it some where and when found will post them.


No matter how large your ferro rod is, the hottest sparks are the ones that come off of the last 1/4 inch of the rod. The little one I have on my key ring is 1/4 inch long.

Those of you that have ferro rods take some time and try using the last 1/4 inch of the rod to produce the spark to light your tinder.

Try this: place your striking device close to your tinder, steady your hand, now put the ferro rod against the striker and pull the rod backwards. Practice that. More times than not, if you do it the other way the striker will be pushed into your fire lay/tinder and mess things up.

At a later date Ill show you how to use a ferro rod with one hand and also the best way to use the rod/striker combo to ignite tinder. The above mentiond way is second best.

oldfivetango-----Zelph,that was one impressive tool! How did you make the handle?
Where does one purchase cordura nylon?
Thanks,

I used a two part epoxy putty. Comes in a cylindrical tube, found in the plumbing dept. at most hardware stores. Cut off what you need, knead it in your hands until blended and then form it around the blade while its still clay_like in texture. Give it 24 hrs. to harden before you start pounding on it. Cordura nylon can be purchased from? Fabric stores I would assume.

I have some 400 denier and some 1,000 denier. If you want a small quantity I will give you some, no charge, PM me. Cordura tote bags are usually available at second hand stores if you want to go that route.

Blastmatch has a moving part that has been known to fail unless current model has been improved. Anything with moving parts can fail. Make your choice simple, but do make a choice that you can carry with you always, one that you feel comfortable with.

I still have a problem with "you HAVE to have a fire." sometimes, it's just not an option and there are better things on which to expend energy on. for example, nearly anywhere on the entire AT it is highly possible to walk out to a near road instead of making a fire.

It might be splitting hairs, but there are no absolutes in survival. The end does justify the means. I agree that it IS a VERY important and potentially life-saving skill to know, but there is almost always another option.

if someone where in a survival situation, and they thought a fire was their only chance, what happens when they realize they lost their little firestarter? I would say that above the skill of making a fire, a more important skill is keeping your cool and staying aware about all the possible options that exist.

I've been in some hairy situations, and even though I am a rather proficient firemaker, on occasion I could simply not get one going without spending too much energy. Did I die? hell no!

Ever seem Empire Strikes Back? That's the kind of thinking I'm talking about.

No, you don't HAVE to die from missing a firestarter, but it's very possible it happens some day, if you go to the "right" places ..........

I still have a problem with "you HAVE to have a fire." sometimes, it's just not an option and there are better things on which to expend energy on. for example, nearly anywhere on the entire AT it is highly possible to walk out to a near road instead of making a fire.

It might be splitting hairs, but there are no absolutes in survival. The end does justify the means. I agree that it IS a VERY important and potentially life-saving skill to know, but there is almost always another option.

if someone where in a survival situation, and they thought a fire was their only chance, what happens when they realize they lost their little firestarter? I would say that above the skill of making a fire, a more important skill is keeping your cool and staying aware about all the possible options that exist.

I've been in some hairy situations, and even though I am a rather proficient firemaker, on occasion I could simply not get one going without spending too much energy. Did I die? hell no!

Ever seem Empire Strikes Back? That's the kind of thinking I'm talking about.

I watched it last night thank you. In the very beggining it shows how a skilled Jedi Knight can get himself into a life threatning situation. Good thing he was prepared and had his firestarter on his person. His fire starter also known as a light saber turbo ferro rod. He was out on the trail, stopped for a minuite to use his cell phone and called home to let them know he was going to go scope out the landing of a meteor. All of sudden he gets whacked on the side of the head by a huge furball snow bear and proceeds to get draged off to the bears snow den. He's now in the later stages of hypothermia hanging by his feet that are frozen into the ceiling of the den.

He gains conciousness, realizes he has dropped his ferro rod and proceeds with great difficuly to levitae his ferro rod into his hand and then proceeds to use it to melt away the ice from around his feet to gain freedom. Immediately thereafter he has to use his ferrosaberrod to sever the arm of the furball immediately infron of him. The searing heat of the saber stunns the beast and allows Sywalker to flee.:banana Out away from the shelter of the cave he falls unconcious from hypothermia. His buddy Solo arrives just in time to save him. Recognising the need for heat, he uses his ferrosaber to sever the belly of his fallen steed giving forth the steaming innards to be along side of the dying Jedi Knight giving him life saving warmth.

These two trailwlkers had their ferrosabers with them and used them. Back at the shelter, we see the big flea bitten furball of a wookie Chewbacka practicing making sparks with a lesser model of a ferro rod. Watch the movie!!!!!!!! See "The Wookie"

We all have our free agency, we do what we want to, hike our own hike. I'll be back later to give you some info about a hypothermia incident on the AT.

The Wookie
I've been in some hairy situations, and even though I am a rather proficient firemaker, on occasion I could simply not get one going without spending too much energy. Did I die? hell no!



You need practice!!!!!!!:)

I watched it last night thank you. In the very beggining it shows how a skilled Jedi Knight can get himself into a life threatning situation. Good thing he was prepared and had his firestarter on his person. His fire starter also known as a light saber turbo ferro rod. He was out on the trail, stopped for a minuite to use his cell phone and called home to let them know he was going to go scope out the landing of a meteor. All of sudden he gets whacked on the side of the head by a huge furball snow bear and proceeds to get draged off to the bears snow den. He's now in the later stages of hypothermia hanging by his feet that are frozen into the ceiling of the den.

He gains conciousness, realizes he has dropped his ferro rod and proceeds with great difficuly to levitae his ferro rod into his hand and then proceeds to use it to melt away the ice from around his feet to gain freedom. Immediately thereafter he has to use his ferrosaberrod to sever the arm of the furball immediately infron of him. The searing heat of the saber stunns the beast and allows Sywalker to flee.:banana Out away from the shelter of the cave he falls unconcious from hypothermia. His buddy Solo arrives just in time to save him. Recognising the need for heat, he uses his ferrosaber to sever the belly of his fallen steed giving forth the steaming innards to be along side of the dying Jedi Knight giving him life saving warmth.

These two trailwlkers had their ferrosabers with them and used them. Back at the shelter, we see the big flea bitten furball of a wookie Chewbacka practicing making sparks with a lesser model of a ferro rod. Watch the movie!!!!!!!! See "The Wookie"

We all have our free agency, we do what we want to, hike our own hike. I'll be back later to give you some info about a hypothermia incident on the AT.

The Wookie

You need practice!!!!!!!:)
http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/movies/pics/starwarsepisode5_3.jpgLOL....

He might have had a light saber, but he could have used the force. Yes, he did use it to get the saber :D flying into his hand but come on, you know he could have made a stalagtite puncture that walking dog thing in the ear just as well. The problem is that, as Gorge Lucas figured out, light sabers look way cooler than dripping ice on film and what would be exciting about slicing a kangaroo with a concoidal blade. By you way, you know that place was of volconic geology and must have been covered with crystaline ignaeous rocks with fine grains ready for knapping.

Of course, that far in the future they might have forgotten that stuff. But I guess Yoda did try to teach him.

Moral of the story, either way: "Use the Force":D

when I was young,over 50 years ago, I was in love with the concept of a flint and steel fire, thanks to the leather stocking books (/J.F. Cooper I think) Natty Bumpo was our han solo.

I requested and received an official Boy Scout Flint and Steel set. Although I could produce a pretty good spark, after a lot of practice, I never was able to kindle a fire. I must have spent days trying.

Just the other day, I learned of "char cloth". The first step of catching the spark and turning it into fire.

Someday, Wookie, you may be as lucky as I and the secrets of the force will be revealed to you as well
<G>

MIles of Smiles
Tom

Several hikers question being unable to escape the cold by either hiking / hitchhiking to a warmer environment or retreating to spare clothing, a tent, and a sleeping bag. Those who firmly believe these will always be available, dry, and sufficient aren’t going to think much further about fire starting.

There is some pride taken, justifiably in my mind, in being able to assemble all the components needed to make a fire from a wooded environment around you, using additionally things a hiker is likely to bring with him/her for other uses, e.g., a decent knife. This thread has gone, even more practically, into what we can carry to assist in fire production.

There is a third field of fire starting which has little to do with being in a dry environment; carrying everything needed to start a fire. This country has, arguably, become hysterical about someone starting a fire onboard an aircraft. Consider what items you are prohibited from carrying onto an aircraft. Many of these items are small, lightweight, and start fires readily. Two items readily available at Walmart, when combined, create a very hot fire lasting a few seconds. The heat is sufficient to dry soaked twigs and set them ablaze. If you’re still worried, include a piece of rubber inner tube which burns hot, and for a long time relative to its volume and mass.

I carry all sorts of fire starting items - not including terrorist tools - whenever I go hiking in the woods. I haven’t looked at the Swedish FireSteels which have been linked in this thread but FireSteels with larger diameters are MUCH MORE efficient at starting fires. Larger diameter FireSteels are (or were) scarce and expensive. I found a British source on eBay who supplies survivalists with larger diameter FireSteels. I bought enough for my day pack, overnight pack, and for each of my vehicles.

I use a wood burning stove which doesn’t need batteries. I have started fires with a match, Vaseline coated cotton ball, and water-soaked twigs without much additional effort. The stove produces a very impressive amount of heat in short order, which quickly lights subsequently introduced larger pieces of water-soaked wood. This stove produces a very hot fire even using saturated wood.

FIRE STARTERS I CONSIDER CARRYING:

AIR HOSE.
ALCOHOL WIPES 0.1 oz
CANDLES, BIRTHDAY 0.2 oz
COTTON BALLS, DRY 0.1 oz
COTTON BALLS, VASELINE COATED / SCREW-TOP CONTAINER 0.5 oz / 1.3 oz COTTON BATONS, DRY
COTTON: DRYER LINT (With / Without Paraffin Wax)
FIRESTEEL 1.3 oz
FLINT & STEEL 1.4 oz
FUEL TABLETS: ESBIT 0.5 oz ea
FUEL TABLETS: HEXAMINE: BURN FOR SEVEN MINUTES 1.1 oz / Pkg
FUEL TABLETS: TRIOXANE. 0.7 oz - 1.3 oz
LIGHTER FLINT: SPARE INSIDE ZIPPO LIGHTER
LIGHTER FLUID RESERVOIR
LIGHTER, MINI BIC: WON’T VAPORIZE IN WINTER. [0.5 oz]
LIGHTER WICK: SPARE INSIDE ZIPPO LIGHTER
LIGHTER, ZIPPO 1.9 oz / 1.5 oz empty
MAGNESIUM & HACKSAW BLADE. 1.4 oz
MATCHES, BOOK TYPE. 0.1 oz
MATCHES, WATERPROOF (BRITISH LIFEBOAT) 0.4 oz ea
MATCH SAFE (BIRTHDAY CANDLES) 0.7 oz
MATCH STRIKER, EXTRA.
RUBBER STRIPS

when I was young,over 50 years ago, I was in love with the concept of a flint and steel fire, thanks to the leather stocking books (/J.F. Cooper I think) Natty Bumpo was our han solo.

I requested and received an official Boy Scout Flint and Steel set. Although I could produce a pretty good spark, after a lot of practice, I never was able to kindle a fire. I must have spent days trying.

Just the other day, I learned of "char cloth". The first step of catching the spark and turning it into fire.

Someday, Wookie, you may be as lucky as I and the secrets of the force will be revealed to you as well
<G>

MIles of Smiles
Tom

Somewhere along the way I do believe that I read that it was indeed
the Boyscouts who came up with the idea of charcloth.This would mean that the "real men" like Lewis&Clark,Davy Crockett,Dan'l Boone,or even
Jeremiah Johnson would not have been using it.Can this be true?I believe that the real men listed above used something else to catch the spark
called a "puck" but I am running on memory here and have no idea as to
what that is.I have a feeling it is something similar to a wick in a lamp but am not sure.All I know is that I make my own charcloth and when I am
asked to demonstrate primitive fire at night around the campfire when the
dew is falling,then I slip a little bit into my tinder ball of jute twine and the
whole thing goes off like the 4th of July.:D
Oldfivetango

Somewhere, somehow while growing up I lost the appreciation of the lore in books and movies. I think it is because I've froze my keister a couple of times. That said, I want stuff that works all the time. I just timed a small Triox bar I lit with a spark - 6 minutes. That's 6 minutes of heat, 6 minutes to get my fire started, 6 minutes of comfort minimum.

I'm going to get me a couple of the Spark-Lites and a couple Boy Scout Hot-Sparks to mess around with. I have one of those Doan magnesium/flints now.

:-? Or you could just hire Paul Bunyan. Read my post here (http://www.trailjournals.com/gbookv.cfm?trailname=1416) and check out this fire (http://www.trailjournals.com/photos.cfm?id=204773)! Unfortunately, for you, he's got better fish to fry (over an open fire) at the moment.

I suggest keeping to the higher ground and carrying a dry laptop with the above links bookmarked.;)

when I was young,over 50 years ago, I was in love with the concept of a flint and steel fire, thanks to the leather stocking books (/J.F. Cooper I think) Natty Bumpo was our han solo.

I requested and received an official Boy Scout Flint and Steel set. Although I could produce a pretty good spark, after a lot of practice, I never was able to kindle a fire. I must have spent days trying.

Just the other day, I learned of "char cloth". The first step of catching the spark and turning it into fire.

Someday, Wookie, you may be as lucky as I and the secrets of the force will be revealed to you as well
<G>

MIles of Smiles
Tom


Well I may just a young pantoine learner but I have found that shavings of a shelf mushroom do the sme trick, without the soot.

Somewhere along the way I do believe that I read that it was indeed
the Boyscouts who came up with the idea of charcloth.This would mean that the "real men" like Lewis&Clark,Davy Crockett,Dan'l Boone,or even
Jeremiah Johnson would not have been using it.Can this be true?I believe that the real men listed above used something else to catch the spark
called a "puck" but I am running on memory here and have no idea as to
what that is.I have a feeling it is something similar to a wick in a lamp but am not sure.All I know is that I make my own charcloth and when I am
asked to demonstrate primitive fire at night around the campfire when the
dew is falling,then I slip a little bit into my tinder ball of jute twine and the
whole thing goes off like the 4th of July.:D
Oldfivetango

See above post. Shelf mushrooms.

haha.... I just googled it to find a picture. One species is acutally called Tinder Polypore (Fomes fomentarius)

see this page http://www.fs.fed.us/na/durham/coopforest/stewardship/text/edible_fungi.shtml

Good to know.... just in case you forget your char-cloth

double post my bad

Thanks, Wookie!

Never too old to learn.

Tom

I started carrying an Esbit tab and a scout flint as an emergency fire starter ... I've started fires with soaked wood in New Mexico where the forest had had torrential rains for two weeks prior.

It burns at 1200 degrees and starts easy.

Storm has written a fantastic amount of information gained from his experiences. Here is a quick sample to start with.

The Usefulness of Polypore Fungi In Primitive Fire Making
by storm
(previously published in Mushroom: The Journal and Wilderness Way Magazine)
Five thousand, three hundred years ago Ötzi, also known as the Ice Man, died at 10,500 feet in the Ötztal Alps, which divides Italy and Austria. The 1991 discovery of this mummified neolithic time capsule yielded a treasure trove of artifacts to anthropologists and challenged current theory regarding that transitory period between Stone Age and Iron Age. Among Ötzi’s possessions were various species of shelf fungi (other known as conks and polypores—named as such for the tiny pores on the underside of these wood-inhabiting fungi) commonly found in the surrounding lowlands. Why did he carry such fungi? Was he aware of their inherent medicinal value? In such a barren, wood-less tundra, would a trek through this inhospitable landscape necessitate the importation of fire-starting materials or cooking fuel? My intentions with this article are three-fold: to address potential ancient uses of polypores; to share my experiences incorporating Kingdom Fungi into my primitive skills practitioning; and unite the disciplines of mycology and primitive technology in order to assist mycophiles and “abo’s” in recognizing a primal link between mushrooms and humanity.

You can go to this site (http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=87)and read his entire 3 part series. Also search the site for many more interesting primitive subjects. Learn how to make a fire piston etc etc.

Zelph,

You advise (Post #39), “You can go to this site and read his entire 3 part series.”

I read Part #1 but didn’t get further. Any suggestions?

Thanks for providing the interesting site.

go to the site; enter "search" mode from top menu; search for "storm"

He has several series of articles. The fungi fire is the second listed.

Tom

Zelph,

You advise (Post #39), “You can go to this site and read his entire 3 part series.”

I read Part #1 but didn’t get further. Any suggestions?

Thanks for providing the interesting site.

Here is part 2 (http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88)

Here is part 3 (http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=89)


Here is the FIRE forum (http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=74976c727c17ab114c93e6766bb54ec3)


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom / Teblum and Zelph,

Reference your posts (#41 & 42).

Thank you. It’s quite an interesting read.

It was my job to start a fire every night when I was a teenager. We had a wood stove insert in our fireplace and we heated our house with wood. I've camped my whole life too so I am pretty darn good at making fires indoors and outdoors.

I tried to start a fire in a soaking wet rain forest last month. The plan was to take the kids to a local campground (closed) and have a nice fire and roast marshmallow and hot dogs while the kids played near the creek and I of course played with my alcohol stoves. It was not raining at the time and we had dry kindling but our firewood was wet. The air was so humid that our matches would not stay lit! We did get a fire going eventually but it was never very warm and I confess I poured some HEET on it to get it going. I consider it to be terribly bad form to us gas or HEET (in a non-survival situation) but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.


We had dry firewood at home but our friend gave us a Jeep load of wood so we took it instead of our wood and we found out too late that it was wet.

My husband is a city boy and he thinks wood is dry if it looks and feels dry on the outside. He went on and on about how he was drinking coffee around campfires in Spain back when I was in diapers . Yeah he's an old fart.. I said that's all good and fine but it's not the same as starting a fire in a sopping wet temperate rain forest in February!

He kept insisting that a certain wet piece of wood get put in the fire. I kept telling him it was too wet and all it would do is put out the fire. But he would not listing.. so I had to give in and let him learn the hard way. Not much fun watching my hard won fire go out. I saved the fire just in time though.

But I was impressed that even my darn matches would not stay lit. There was no wind.

In my day pack I always carry an esbit tablet for emergency fire starting. I also have a tea candle in the kit. Ray Jardine says to carry a birthday candle cut in half but I'd rather carry a super heavy esbit tablet instead.

I've always been interested in survival kits and that naturally leads to emergency fire building. I approach survival kits with the premise that they are for the time I can't walk out because of injury, location, or weather, and that they must provide for me if I'm separated from my pack/camp. Since fire building is such an important part of survival I typically carry three or more fire starters with me; matches, Bics, sparkwheels and tinder, etc., on my person, in the pack, and in the survival kit (which is worn if I'm away from my pack). Although I don't cook on, or otherwise use, campfires anymore, this thread got me to thinking about fires and I hopped on the good ship Google and sailed around the internet for a while when I found "Vaseline candles."

I'd not heard of Vaseline candles or seen this technique before and this page, http://www.tacticalunderground.us/sere/?p=17 , just intrigued the heck out of me. This morning the kitchen was mine while I melted Vaseline and soaked cotton balls to put into little foil packets (the Lady is soooo understanding:rolleyes: ). What fascinated me is the potential for this foil packaging of vaseline balls. Used as tinder, the ignited cotton ball can be pulled out of the fire when it's no longer needed, extinguished and, with foil refolded, saved for use again. As a candle, a little playing around with the folding of the foil can yield a reflector and/or wind screen. The size of the flame can be enlarged by pulling more cotton out to form a larger wick. Although the wick burns down quickly it does stay lit, just with a smaller flame. On top of everything else, the foil and vaseline ball presses down pretty flat and it can be packed cleanly anywhere...maybe even a wallet.

I played with my first construction a little and got two 45-minute burns from one cotton ball...and there's more than half of the vaseline-soaked ball left! That impressed me!!:) I forgot to weigh the 'candle' when first made but after the first 45-minute burn it came in a bit under a half ounce. I can forsee several of these carried on packtrips, stored in cars' glove boxes, etc.

FB

These reports you may find interesting, I think they relate to preparedness. Are You prepared when you're out and about?

Accident Reports
Appalachia, June 2005
Hypothermia in July
On July 5, 2004, Nelson C., 59, was hiking with his son, Darren, up the Great Gulf headwall when, at around 3:30 p.m., he began to shiver on a rainy day. Darren called his mother, telling her that they planned to return to their campsite near Spaulding Lake. He called her again around 4:45 p.m. to tell her that his father continued to shiver and had fallen on his way back to the campsite. She then contacted the Mount Washington Observatory, which in turn contacted Fish and Game. At 6:30 p.m., Mike Pelchat and Diane Holmes, from the Mount Washington State Park, started down to Spaulding Lake, arriving there at 8:10 p.m. They evaluated Nelson's condition, and found that he was lying in a warm sleeping bag, with dry clothes, and that they had adequate food and water. It was mutually agreed that the hikers would spend the night in their tent and hike out, unaided, the next morning. They left their campsite around 3:30 p.m. the following day and hiked out, reporting that they were in good health.
Comment: This incident illustrates a fundamental rule of safe hiking on Mount Washington: hypothermia can occur there at any time of the year, so be prepared. I am assuming hypothermia not only because of the shivering but because of the incident of falling. Hypothermia leads to loss of coordination, stumbling, and slurred speech. Since there was no rescue, the hikers were not interviewed by Fish and Game. Rather than speculate at what may have caused the hypothermia, I will briefly discuss some of the factors that can lead to its development.

http://www.outdoors.org/publications/appalachia/2005/2005-accident-reports2.cfm?RenderForPrint=1 Appalacian

Accident Report: Hikers Benighted on Wildcat Ridge
Appalachia, December 2001
On March 4, 2001, Mark Iaconis, 37, of North Attleboro, Mass., Guy LaChance, 38, of Rehoboth, Mass., and Paul Saariaho, 37, of Attleboro, Mass., attempted to ascend the Wildcat Ridge Trail from Pinkham Notch. LaChance and Saariaho had limited winter hiking experience, while Iaconis had none. They intended to ski down the trails of the Wildcat Mountain Ski Area, and so were carrying their skis on this often very steep trail. However, they had only two pair of snowshoes among the three of them, and carried no lights or overnight equipment; they had inadequate boots (particularly Iaconis).
After being overtaken by darkness, having found the trip much more difficult than they expected, they started to panic, discarded their ski equipment, and took shelter in the trees. Here they were able to start a fire. At 9:30 p.m. they reported their situation by cell phone, stating that one of them had frozen feet (this proved not to be the case). Their position proved to be less than a quarter-mile from the ski area summit station and only 80 yards from the Wildcat Valley Cross-Country Ski Trail; they even saw the grooming machine go by. They were escorted out by a conservation officer and given a ride down the mountain. They were charged $900 in rescue costs.

http://www.outdoors.org/publications/appalachia/2001/2001-dec-accidents.cfm?RenderForPrint=1 appalacian