To GPS or to not GPS???? [Archive] - WhiteBlaze

CT Dave

05-08-2007, 13:20

jbwood5

05-08-2007, 13:29

Depending on where you are hiking, it might or might not do you any good. You really can't trust these things for giving you hiking distances because in shaded areas you lose the signal and when it comes back, it just adds in the straight line distance. You'll be walking further than the GPS records.

I suppose that in an emergency, when used with a cell phone, you could pi-point your location precisely and get quick help.

It sort of takes the adventure out of the journey INHO.

Just John

trippclark

05-08-2007, 13:54

I am going to do my first hiking soon, I am going to do the the trail in sections and was wondering if I should use GPS to keep track of where I have been and all that good stuff. If so which units are good?
I think I might just be getting too excited and wanting to buy everything there is. I have not heard anything on here about GPS units so I am probably just excited and wasting money. Thought I would ask anyway. Thanks

GPS is not necessary for hiking the AT but can be a fun toy with some useful benefit. I carry a Garmin Geko 201 on most of my section hikes. Again, it is far from necessary gear, but here is how I find it fun/convenient/useful - YMMV:

* Finding trailhead locations (this is perhaps the most useful as sometimes the trailhead can be elusive, but a automobile GPS would probably be more effective for this)

* I pre-load shelter and road crossing coordinates, plus other known landmarks, to give an approximate "how close am I" check from time to time.

* Check sunrise and sunset times for my current location (of course, I could easily check this online ahead of time if desired, but it is convenient to check it in the field)

* Check altitude to see how far I have come up a mountain and see about how much climbing remains.

The Geko has a pretty acceptable weight penalty for me - I think it is something like 4 or 5 oz. - and it was fairly inexpensive. I bring it because I have it and it can be useful and fun, but it is far from essential.

Appalachian Tater

05-08-2007, 15:25

You don't have to have a map, much less a GPS, to hike the AT. A map would be handy if a problem arises. A GPS would be a fun electronic toy.

camich

05-08-2007, 15:26

GPS is not necessary for hiking the AT but can be a fun toy with some useful benefit.

I agree...we took our GPS on our last hike from Max Patch to I-40. We took it to do some geocaching along the way. It was definately worth it.

rswanson

05-08-2007, 16:29

Unless you want another groovy gadget, a GPS isn't neccessary at all on the A/T. There are usually only two directions to go on the A/T: the direction you came from and the direction you're heading. Its really hard to get lost. Most people get lost (if you can call it that) when, after stopping for a while, resuming their hike in the direction they just came from.

Also note that with a GPS, distances and directions are always 'as the crow flies' so a distance calc from your current location to the trailhead might read '5 miles' but in reality could be 6, 7, or maybe even 10 miles hiking distance. GPS units don't account for twists and turns on the trail. If the trail doubles back on itself for a mile or two the GPS won't know that...unless you have waypoints for each devitation in bearing already plotted in to the unit, which almost no one does. That owuld require massive prep work.

GPS units also don't calculate in altitude gain or loss along a given stretch. They can tell you your current altitude and the altitude of the next waypoint but cannot give details about any elevation gain or loss along that stretch of trail. In short, it only displays aggregate elevation gain/loss between two points.

So, in short, sometimes GPS units can give you a false sense of how much hiking you actually have to do. GPS units work best in conjunction with a map.

They do require batteries, have a learning curve, usually require good exposure to clear sky, often require additional software to download maps and plot hikes, and of course add weight. All that said, if you're a gadget guy/girl you might find that the diversion adds enjoyment to your hike.

One area that a GPS works very well is for giving emergency responders a precise location in lat/lon or UTM coordinates. Of course, you need a sat or cell phone to make full use of this function. Some cell phones now come with decent GPS capability.

Personally, I found a GPS to be too much of a hassle. I prefer a map and compass, which gives me a much better indication of actual trail conditions, at a glance. Even if you're in a location where a GPS is appropriate, you should always carry a topo map and compass as a backup, and know how to use it.

Mags

05-08-2007, 16:49

Even if you're in a location where a GPS is appropriate, you should always carry a topo map and compass as a backup, and know how to use it.

FWIW, the only place where I ever found a GPS to be useful (as opposed to convenient or a toy) is above the canyons of Utah. Flat terrain without any really distinguishing landmarks at times. I still carry a map and compass, but the way point features make it very easy to get back to camp.

Other than that? A nice gadget at times. I did not use it all last summer. Only take it on the AT if you look at is a fun gadget to play with....

Just my nickels worth.

rswanson

05-08-2007, 17:01

FWIW, the only place where I ever found a GPS to be useful (as opposed to convenient or a toy) is above the canyons of Utah. Flat terrain without any really distinguishing landmarks at times. I still carry a map and compass, but the way point features make it very easy to get back to camp.
Just what I was thinking. Even then, if you take a bearings and plot them on a map as you travel, you'll stay found. A GPS does make this process simpler. They're also great for paddling, especially in complicated coastal areas like say the Everglades where reading a chart can be confusing.

Tipi Walter

05-08-2007, 19:10

The cyborgs still have to have their video screens so yeah, take the GPS if you want to look down instead of around. Might as well haul in the Game Boy too. Isn't there a song about being mesmerized by screens? Greg Brown, I think.

Frosty

05-08-2007, 20:44

GPS units don't account for twists and turns on the trail. If the trail doubles back on itself for a mile or two the GPS won't know that...unless you have waypoints for each devitation in bearing already plotted in to the unit, which almost no one does. That owuld require massive prep work.No, this is actually very easy to do and takes but a minute or so. All you need is electronic topo software, not too expensive. Run the mouse over the route you want, it generates a series of waypoints, and you upload to the GPS. Couldn't be simpler.

You don't need to do anything with bearings. The GPS will compute bearing from your current location to the next waypoint. Bearing will depend on where you are standing. You are thinking of using a map and compass where computing a bearing for each turn would be necessary.

As most GPS users and nonGPS users have said, it isn't needed for the AT. If you don't mind having some fun as you hike, people who bring GPSs along often think they are fun to play with.

GPS's will give you an idea who far away the trail head is. There aren't many places like the first part of NC with that hue reversing loop. But if you have a set of AT maps, you can easily locate yourself with the elevation profile.

If knowing where you are takes the fun out of hiking, as it does for some, leave the GPS and map and guides at home. Hiking should be fun, and you get to decide what is fun for you.

Tin Man

05-08-2007, 23:30

Like others have said, GPS is more for fun AND it has potential to save your butt in an emergency. I carry one for fun, but it did keep me from blowing by a shelter/tenting area once when I was running late and I ended up hiking well past dusk. Of course, for this purpose you need the way-points. The ATC website has some way-point data. Click here (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.851255/k.4226/Appalachian_Trail_GIS_and_GPS_Data.htm) for the link. Be mindful of the dates when this data was taken and any subsequent trail and/or shelter relocation.

weary

05-09-2007, 00:08

I shouldn't comment because I'm a GPS beginner. But I've learned enough to know that carrying a GPS device on most trails is totally unnecessary, but occasionally fun.

I've recently bought a Delorme GPS, Topo 6 map combination, because I'm planning to do a booklet describing town, land trust, and other trails in my coastal Maine town.

I've found I can walk a trail with the delorme device and instantly record the trail I walked on a topographic map, ready to be incorporated into my planned booklet.

Weary

RockDoc

05-09-2007, 00:31

I think at the point where you are taking a GPS for navigation, and omitting a map and compass, you risk ending up in a bad situation.

-You will tend not to learn the necessary skills of naviagation, and instead rely on a gadget

-Batteries tend to go dead when you need them most

-GPS is good for telling you where you are, but not so good about telling you where to go, unless you are in a boat on a lake able to go any direction easily. You need a map to figure out where to go.

-Without a map, you also miss out on the abundant information about drainage, topography, natural and cultural features, trails and roads, and choices of different ways to reach your destination. The maps that come with GPS units have a long way to go... Don't expect to see much on them at hiking resolution--thousands of feet.

-Worst of all you are trading time in nature for time with technology. Bad choice.

Frosty

05-09-2007, 00:31

I've found I can walk a trail with the delorme device and instantly record the trail I walked on a topographic map, ready to be incorporated into my planned booklet.

WearyThat's handy for other purposes, also. Lots of AMC maps are now done with GPS/satellite tchnology, but if you walk a trail with an older map, you can see where the map was wrong. I was amazed how wrong the Osseo Trail (south of Flume to the Kanc) was. Had the right general direction and "shape," but off by over a quarter mile in most places.

Also, if you are in an area with lots of rogue trails (mtn bike/ATV etc - more of an issue in Mass and southern NH than your area) you can walk each trail and locate on the map where you were. This works with unmarked snowmobile trails, also. No real point to it, I guess, but it is fun to make trail maps. I did a connect-the-dots to create a woods walk from Gilmanton all the way to Guilford NH by using red, green etc trails but with a lot of unmarked ATV trails connecting them.

Alligator

05-09-2007, 10:14

That's handy for other purposes, also. Lots of AMC maps are now done with GPS/satellite tchnology, but if you walk a trail with an older map, you can see where the map was wrong. I was amazed how wrong the Osseo Trail (south of Flume to the Kanc) was. Had the right general direction and "shape," but off by over a quarter mile in most places.
...Could be the map, but then again, it could be the GPS unit. Were you using the same coordinate system on the GPS as the map? A quarter mile is a lot, but the shift between the NAD27 and NAD83 datums is in some cases hundreds of feet.

Just pointing out it's not always the map.

Footslogger

05-09-2007, 10:18

Mags

05-09-2007, 11:40

Why the 201 model ?? What features make it your choice over the basic or more advanced Geko model ?

'Slogger

It is the one I have. The basic model does not have the feature to download waypoints. The more advanced model is heaver/more expensive. :) Seriously, it is more expensive and heavier. It does have a built in electronic compass and some other whiz-bang features. My $15 compass (with the extra of magnifying glass) seems to do the same job as an electronic compass.

Personally, I like to be able do download way points (again, mainly for Utah) and I like the no-frills of the 201.

I do not use a GPS unit all that much. My map and compass skills, while not orienteering meet level, are reasonably competent so I find that I do not want other extended features. YMMV.

Frosty

05-09-2007, 13:08

Could be the map, but then again, it could be the GPS unit. Were you using the same coordinate system on the GPS as the map? A quarter mile is a lot, but the shift between the NAD27 and NAD83 datums is in some cases hundreds of feet.

Just pointing out it's not always the map.When faced with satellite technology that I have yet to find to be in error, and a squiggly line drawn freehand, I'll go with the GPS as being right.

In this case, the map was right, it was the trail as marked on the map that was incorrect. It was right on Flume peak, and followed the ridgeline fine, but was way off when meandering off the ridge. It followed the general contour of hte trail, just off. It was off a few hundred feet when I hit a river for the final walk out, and it was spot on along the river.

My guess is the guy who drew the map know the trail followed the river, and knew it started from Flume peak, and got those. And he had the general shape of the trail right inbetween, but was not in the right places.

The new maps are done with GPS/satellite technology. You can compare them to the old topos and see that they often vary. SOme of this is due to relos, of course.

It's just fun to see where your are. I use a GPS with maps downloadable. Always shows me where I am, even in a whiteout. As Mags always says, though, not a substitute for common sense and knwledge of the area. I carry paper maps, but when there is a question, I fire up the GPS.

weary

05-09-2007, 13:34

..... I did a connect-the-dots to create a woods walk from Gilmanton all the way to Guilford NH by using red, green etc trails but with a lot of unmarked ATV trails connecting them.
shhh. Let's not admit publicly that ATV trails are occasionally useful. A lot of old roads in my town are now walkable for the first time in years because the machines beat down the vegetation.

Now if we could only get the riders to stop generating deep puddles. The other day I ran into a giant puddle 100 feet long and 75 feet wide, totally blocking pedestrian travel.

Weary

Jaybird

05-09-2007, 13:54

I am going to do my first hiking soon, I am going to do the the trail in sections and was wondering if I should use GPS to keep track of where I have been and all that good stuff............................................. .....etc,etc,etc,.........

As wuz said....NO NEED!
Already been done for you....in the A.T.DATA BOOK!

Good luck with yer hike:D

rswanson

05-09-2007, 13:56

No, this is actually very easy to do and takes but a minute or so. All you need is electronic topo software, not too expensive. Run the mouse over the route you want, it generates a series of waypoints, and you upload to the GPS. Couldn't be simpler.
Frosty, what GPS and which software are you using for prep? It seems to me that not all GPS units can use all software...some will only use proprietary software, differening in functionality. Am I wrong here?

Alligator

05-09-2007, 14:17

Ok Frosty if you feel it was the placement of the trail. I was simply mentioning that if one's unit is not set up the same as the map, there could be discrepancies.

However, your GPS unit is nearly always in error. They have certain accuracies. There are a number of things that will affect the accuracy. For instance, leaving the ridgeline may create a situation where a positional satellite is blocked from view. This loss of one (or more satellites) will affect the unit's calculation of your position.

Even if the trail map is created from gps/satellite there's room for error. Expensive GPS units use time synching and base stations to further reduce error. Someone could muck up the time stamping quite easily, simply by mixing up a file or transposing a number. Human error can easily be introduced.

Those maps you download to your GPS may have been digitized from paper maps. Some of these companies hardly have the staff to be creating new maps from new data. Then the error would be map error+digitizing error;) .

Generally for hiking these errors aren't much bother. But then again, in a whiteout, when you think you know exactly where you are, 10 or 20 meters in the wrong direction could be a problem.

Neither paper maps nor GPS units are 100% accurate.

Slosteppin

05-09-2007, 14:25

I have and carry a Garmin 60C. I usually look at it as a fun toy. I have the mapsource topo maps and upload to the GPS maps for the area I plan to hike.

I believe that most GPS have the capability to record the distance traveled. I set this distance to zero each morning so I know how far I walked each day. I leave it turned on all day and carry it where it can receive signals. This gives me actual distance walked rather than point to point distances.

I just returned from a 4 day hike with several other people, my first time with a group. Several times I had an exact location when those using paper maps were not sure (not many landmarks in the forest).
About 6 miles from the end of the hike an older man twisted his knee and couldn't walk. On the GPS I located a 2-track just a few hundred feet away. By following the old road on the GPS we learned that it connected in 2 miles to the road where we had parked, then another 4 miles to the cars. On the trail it was 6 miles just to the road we parked on, then 3 miles down the road.
One driver volunteered to run out to his car and drive in for the injured hiker. Two people stayed with the injured one to wait and some of us hiked on out. The other GPS was used to mark the position of the injured person and this unit was sent with the runner.

Technology (2 GPS units and 3 cell phones) made this an easy rescue and a fun hike. We had enough people and knowledge that we could have gotten him back without the modern technology, but not nearly as fast. He was in a vehicle and on the way to an ER in less than 2 hours.

If I was to buy a new GPS now it would most likely be the DeLorme, it has lots of neat features.

Slosteppin

trippclark

05-09-2007, 15:09

[quote=trippclark;360720]I carry a Garmin Geko 201 on most of my section hikes. Again, it is far from necessary gear, but here is how I find it fun/convenient/useful.

================================

Why the 201 model ?? What features make it your choice over the basic or more advanced Geko model ?

Just curious cuz I'm in the market for a small unit. Like you, I know it's not totally necessary on established trails. But out here in Wyoming they can really come in handy.

Thanks in advance,

'Slogger

Slogger,

When I bought the 201, the more advanced Geko (301, I think) was not yet out. If I were buying today, I would probably spend a few extra nickels and get the 301. That said, I have not been disappointed in the 201 overall. Biggest shortcoming has been sometimes it is difficult to acquire satellite signals in the mountains and under tree cover, but I think that is pretty typical.

Tripp

LostInSpace

05-09-2007, 16:27

The new maps are done with GPS/satellite technology. You can compare them to the old topos and see that they often vary. SOme of this is due to relos, of course.

It is interesting to see the actual variablilty of the contour line accuracy from one quad to another. I have loaded an 7.5' quad and a recent digital elevation model (DEM) with 10m accuracy into Global Mapper. In some cases, tracing the contour line with the cursor displays elevations that are quite close to the elevation that the contour line indicates. I found quads along the PCT in the Sierra to be pretty good. On the other hand, some of the quads for the Bob Marshall Wilderness show much more error.

WRT GPS, on one occasion in the Bob, it would have been nice to have a GPS to indicate exactly where I was because the trail on the quad was not accuratly placed. When I crossed the Trilobite Pass, the trail disappeared because the ridge crest was all rock, and I couldn't see down either side of the crest because of rain and fog. The map indicated the trail to immediately descend the crest, but there was no sign of a trail, the ground fell away pretty steeply. Because of the conditions, and the dubious accuracy of the trail location on the topo, I wasn't sure excatly where I crested the ridge. I eventually located the trail from a cairn about a half mile farther along the ridge. Had I not found the trail, a GPS fix would have helped me decide where to descend.

Footslogger

05-12-2007, 11:49

[quote=Footslogger;360999]

Slogger,

When I bought the 201, the more advanced Geko (301, I think) was not yet out. If I were buying today, I would probably spend a few extra nickels and get the 301. That said, I have not been disappointed in the 201 overall. Biggest shortcoming has been sometimes it is difficult to acquire satellite signals in the mountains and under tree cover, but I think that is pretty typical.

Tripp

=========================================

Thanks for that Tripp ...

Gave it some thought, and seeing as how I already own a watch that has a barometric altimeter and digital compass and I'd never use the device to play games, I decided to go the 201 route. Found one new in the box on eBay yesterday and to my surprise hardly anyone was bidding on it. Picked it up for around $60, which seemed like a good deal considering the lowest internet retail deal I could find was about $110 for that model.

I already own the lowest model Etrex (yellow) but didn't like the size/weight much and the fact that it run on AA's instead of AAA's, which I carry anyway for headlamp/MRP3 etc.

So ...new toy to play with. Should be here early next week !!

'Slogger

Frosty

05-12-2007, 15:10

Now if we could only get the riders to stop generating deep puddles. The other day I ran into a giant puddle 100 feet long and 75 feet wide, totally blocking pedestrian travel.

WearyI'll take deep puddles if they stop widening them. Parts of the Taconic Crest Trail allows ATVs. Bumped into quite a few of riders. Nice guys, always polite, always slowed down so as not to splash or zoom by me, BUT .... the puddles were awful.

I don't understand why they keep skirting the edges, makng them wider and wider. They're on a vehicle, their feet won't get wet - just drive on through!

Frolicking Dinosaurs

05-12-2007, 17:09

We have a GPS unit, but I've only used it in Slickrock Wilderness - an area where there are no blazes and very few trail signs (and several well-used illegal connectors between trails). As others have said, it is no substitute for a compass, map and the knowledge of how to use them. We have had it out on the AT as a toy and the only use I found for it there was to decide which mountain we had just climbed (by using the altimeter function) when the mountains had several 'brows' making it hard to tell where one ended and another started.