View Full Version : Wingfoot items sold.. wow what people will spend!
First off.. This post is not for the wingfoot bashers. I don't even want to go there.. Moderators please take note.
With that out of the way..
I just noticed on Dan's farewell page that he has sold a his 1985 AT hike certificate.. for a 750 dollars and his golden anniversary hike for a thousand dollars. These items have sold for these prices!
I find it hard to fathom that some would shell out a thousand big ones for a certificate of someone ELSES completed hike.
OK yes they are one of a kind. But so is everyone else's thru hike certificate.
I also find it a little dissapointing that he wants to sell his certificates. I mean what is more important.. a few hundred bucks or the recoginition of an amazing personal achievement?
Someone bought his philisophers guide ...that he carried on his 1990 thru hike for 300. The list goes on
This all tells me that the guy was a heck of a resources (for all the AT publications and artifacts he had) and must have had a following.
Still this all raised my eyebrows!
David
dixicritter
08-10-2007, 10:43
Moved to Straight Forward Forum because of the request in OP for stricter moderation of this thread.
Alligator
08-10-2007, 10:45
Some hikers have the extra bucks. Look at the price of gear.
Pacific Tortuga
08-10-2007, 10:46
It is amazing what people will buy and for how much. I guess his memmories will be internally in his heart and mind or he has had enough and IS done with the AT .
I find it hard to fathom that some would shell out a thousand big ones for a certificate of someone ELSE'S completed hike.
OK yes they are one of a kind. But so is everyone else's thru hike certificate.
I also find it a little disappointing that he wants to sell his certificates. I mean what is more important, a few hundred bucks or the recoginition of an amazing personal achievement?
David
Yes, Dan Bruce's certificates are one of a kind and they were his to sell. Mine were I able to locate it was one of a kind too, but it wouldn't be worth as much as any of Dan Bruce's. I wouldn't think his memories would be for sale at any price, but maybe he would part with them too.
Buyer and seller placed a value upon them they agreed upon. I can see someone wanting to display one of his certificates, especially the 1987 certificate. ATC once displayed and may still display William O. Douglas' plaque.
7Sisters
08-10-2007, 12:36
It is amazing what people will buy and for how much. I guess his memmories will be internally in his heart and mind or he has had enough and IS done with the AT .
I've never applied for my certificate, because it's just. A piece of paper that really has no value to me. Now the memories and journals, they are of huge value and nobody can ever take away my memories (outside of an accident or illness).
It is my fondest hope that all the memorabilia will end up in the museum of the AT on display.
It is my fondest hope that all the memorabilia will end up in the museum of the AT on display.
Hope springs eternal.
It would be kind of funny if ALDHA bought some of his items for the AT trail museum. And they probably should.
Panzer
sweatoid
08-10-2007, 13:07
Read this online transcript of a radio interview of WF:
odeo.com/audio/118396/view from a few years ago.
If the transcript is accurate, then he's about 65 now.
He was 42 for his first thru in 1985.
A while back on TP, he wrote that he was writing a book about his research on the bible and the end times. That's probably his new focus.
With the selling of certs, books, etc., my guess is that he is shedding his skin as he goes to what is most important in his life because the AT is no longer #1.
The controversy that surrounds him is not unusual for a well-known person. Love 'e'm vs hate 'em. Think Barry Bonds, George Bush, Bill Clinton, Martin Luther King, Sitting Bull, on and on.
sweatoid
08-10-2007, 13:22
try this link if the other does not work
http://www.trailcast.org/wingfoot-interview-transcript/
the goat
08-10-2007, 13:34
Love 'e'm vs hate 'em. Think Barry Bonds, George Bush, Bill Clinton, Martin Luther King, Sitting Bull, on and on.
you can't be serious with those analogies???
if some folks are silly enough to want wf's personal effects at those prices, they are undoubtedly satisfied buyers!
Lone Wolf
08-10-2007, 13:36
a fool and his money are soon parted. i wouldn't give $1 for Earl's shoes. It's just a trail
if some folks are silly enough to want wf's personal effects at those prices, they are undoubtedly satisfied buyers!
My point exactly. A satisfied seller and a satisfied buyer a good transaction make.
It's just a trail
Yes, Wolf, we knew that's what you thought before you posted!;)
if some folks are silly enough to want wf's personal effects at those prices, they are undoubtedly satisfied buyers!
"One man's trash is another man's treasure." Only here, WF is just making a financial gain on his unwanted "trash." :cool:
I can understand him selling certificates. I tend not to hold onto stuff like that, especially when moving on. I can't understand others buying them, but that goes hand in hand with not being a collector myself. I don't think there is anything puritanical about myself not being a collector. I might even argue that I'm at the opposite extreme to a fault. Perhaps I've lost stuff in the past I can't get back, so I don't bother trying to collect or hold onto to anything. My wife's doing a good job of holding on to me though, and I thank God for that.
bulldog49
08-10-2007, 14:52
This reminds me of PT Barnum's quote that "no one ever went broke underestimating the public's intelligence".
TJ aka Teej
08-10-2007, 17:45
These items have sold for these prices!
Everything you read on the Internet is true! :rolleyes:
derekthered
08-10-2007, 19:31
His site indicates he has always wanted a laptop computer, which I ascertain he plans on purchasing with the funds generated from "gifts," autographed handbook editions, etc. $500 for the '91 edition. You can buy a decent laptop with that...
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-12-2007, 07:28
This thread is about the sell of WF items and in the straight forward forum. I removed the other comments because they were not on topic.
the goat
08-12-2007, 15:51
Removed by admin
The Desperado
08-12-2007, 22:51
It does seem too bad that some of the "stuff" does'nt find it's way to the A/T museum. It would be a nice addition, I think.
First off.. This post is not for the wingfoot bashers. I don't even want to go there.. Moderators please take note.
With that out of the way..
I just noticed on Dan's farewell page that he has sold a his 1985 AT hike certificate.. for a 750 dollars and his golden anniversary hike for a thousand dollars. These items have sold for these prices!
I find it hard to fathom that some would shell out a thousand big ones for a certificate of someone ELSES completed hike.
OK yes they are one of a kind. But so is everyone else's thru hike certificate.
I also find it a little dissapointing that he wants to sell his certificates. I mean what is more important.. a few hundred bucks or the recoginition of an amazing personal achievement?
Someone bought his philisophers guide ...that he carried on his 1990 thru hike for 300. The list goes on
This all tells me that the guy was a heck of a resources (for all the AT publications and artifacts he had) and must have had a following.
Still this all raised my eyebrows!
David
Perhaps dan wants to totally detach himself fromt the trail and the trail community....
The Solemates
08-13-2007, 13:38
our certificates are for sale as well. $100 starting bid. we welcome any bidders.
The Weasel
08-13-2007, 14:41
I do not think this is an appropriate "Straight Forward" thread and ask that it be put into "Sensitive Subjects."
"Straight Forward" is - according to its description - for questions and answers. This is a thread in which opinions should be allowed. It should be moved so that people may express opinions. It is contrary to the way WB works to use SF as a way of elmiinating discussion.
Please consider moving it.
The Weasel
I agree with The Weasel on this one.
Appalachian Tater
08-13-2007, 15:08
Yup, Weasel's right.
Alligator
08-13-2007, 15:12
What would I spend? I didn't consider some of the items as valuable as priced. However, the copper marker and Earl's private printing both caught my interest. Not that I have pockets deep enough to purchase either mind you. I could care less for another hiker's certificate, but some folks find celebrity memorabilia fascinating.
Heck, I've got that 1992 edition in very good condition, it just has a little writing on one inside cover. Anyone willing to spend a little less than WF wants send me a PM.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-13-2007, 17:28
Dixie moved this thread to straight-forward. As long as you are discussing the sell of WF's items, you may express any opinion you wish. Several have indicted they do not feel the items are worth what is being asked and that they feel the items should have donated to the ATC. You don't have to be pro-WF to participate, but you can't bash Dan for things other than the selling off of these items in this thread.
~but you can bash Dan for things other than the selling off of these items in this thread.
A slip, I assume. What a difference one letter makes.
I have a 1998 edition that I loaned to The Weasel for his aborted thru. He failed to autograph it before returning it to me so it's value is suspect. :D
The Weasel
08-13-2007, 17:35
This is a forum, by its own terms, for "questions and answers," Dino. I have no interest in "bashing" Dan, but there should be a place for more than "questions and answers." Several others have agreed with me, and you will note how careful everyone is here, after at least one post was deleted.
I think it should be moved. I have this spooky feeling, as if this thread has the "do not disagree with what Dan does" attiude that Trail Place had during its life. That is a VERY un-WhiteBlaze feeling, and I hope this thread is moved to "Sensitive Subjects" where it belongs.
The Weasel
The Weasel
08-13-2007, 17:36
I have a 1998 edition that I loaned to The Weasel for his aborted thru. He failed to autograph it before returning it to me so it's value is suspect. :D
Will look for it, autograph, sell for serious money, and give all to you!
Had no idea of its value!
The Weasel
Several have indicted they do not feel the items are worth what is being asked and the items should have been donated to the ATC.
That would be Dan's choice. If the buyers want to donate the items, that would be their choice.
SGT Rock
08-13-2007, 17:43
Here is my suggestion for the impasse here. Since the original poster asked that the thread not turn into a "Wingfoot bashing thread" and that is the point of keeping it on topic, I suggest that anyone that wants to be more thick skinned and have a separate discussion can start a new thread about this subject there and leave this one the way it is - slightly more reserved and respectful. I have a feeling that anything that starts to go off kilter here on this subject will only turn into a venomous flame war with polarized feelings about the man and I think the intention was to avoid everyone venting their spleen over it.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-13-2007, 17:50
A slip, I assume. What a difference one letter makes.Thank you for catching that, Roland.
Thank you, Rock, for clarification and suggestion. The thread caught fire while you were out hiking - that's why I deleted about 20 posts here yesterday.
The Weasel
08-13-2007, 18:07
Rock: Thanks for what you say. But what is the quesiton-and-answer here? Or the topic that can be handled "straight forward"?
The Weasel
SGT Rock
08-13-2007, 18:11
I dunno, I just got back to the site myself after some time away and some of the policies have changed trying to clean up some of the more rough speach and at the same time trying to hopefully reduce the wolf-pack actions. I imagine the "question" is a request for comments that are not WF bashing. Since I didn't start the post I can only assume that is what he ment as that is how I took it myself.
Actually, I don't so much have a hard time seeing that Winfoot may want to sell and is selling personal items like AT hike certificates for what ever he can get. He may for what ever reason he may wish to detatch him self as much as he can from the AT, his memories, and any symbols there of. Where I him, I would have kept my certificates. What really raised my eyebrows is that people are so willing to pay big bucks for someone else's AT hike certificate. I mean, the accomplishment(s) was not theirs but Wingfoots. Ditto for buying say 2000 miler certificates that are owned by Jack or Warren or Jester or anyone else! To me, the only AT hike certificate that really matters to me is mine because it is a certificate of MY accomplishment. Now, I think that every 2000 miler certificate is very valuable..but valuable principly to the person it is issued to.
Thank you very much Rock! You truly hit the nail on the head with your post! It does appear that this thread has been fully rescued from the sewer!
DavidNH
Yeah, this is supposed to be a Staight Forward Question and Answers forum. I too fail to see any question here in this topic. This topic, from the very beginning, is all opinion. The OP never asks a single question in his post, merely offers his opinion.
The Weasel
08-13-2007, 18:21
I dunno, I just got back to the site myself after some time away and some of the policies have changed trying to clean up some of the more rough speach and at the same time trying to hopefully reduce the wolf-pack actions. I imagine the "question" is a request for comments that are not WF bashing. Since I didn't start the post I can only assume that is what he ment as that is how I took it myself.
Rock, three thoughts:
One, "opening posts" have never controlled topics in WB. Lord knows, I tried that in the "Law" one and lost, utterly. As noted above, saying, "I have an opinion, do not disagree [by bashing Dan Bruce or saying something a LITTLE negative] is not "straight forward."
Two, not every disagreement has to be (or should be!) "bashing." I have opinions that are not "bashing" (I hope) but are less reverential.
Three, the person starting this thread didn't put it in Straight Forward, so their wish really isn't that it be here.
Dixi made a good faith call - we all know that - but this thread belongs elsewhere. I'm not saying she (or anyone) made a mistake. Just that as it stands now, it should be moved, so that discussion is not unduly inhibited. If it goes wild, well, you, she and Troll have never hesitated to rein things in.
The Weasel
SGT Rock
08-13-2007, 18:39
I don't disagree with you on any of those points Weasel, I'm only trying to see this from the side of those that moved it and started moderating it as to why they are doing this. I reckon they are doing it to reduce the discord and keep this thread in a more open area. IMO this is a "Straight Forward" section, not the "Kinder, Gentler Feelings" section.
Anyway, that is my $0.02, I recommend a thread copy of this one to the Sensitive Subjects forum and let people say what they want to that want to go there in the first place.
The Weasel
08-13-2007, 18:44
I don't disagree with you on any of those points Weasel, I'm only trying to see this from the side of those that moved it and started moderating it as to why they are doing this. I reckon they are doing it to reduce the discord and keep this thread in a more open area. IMO this is a "Straight Forward" section, not the "Kinder, Gentler Feelings" section.
Anyway, that is my $0.02, I recommend a thread copy of this one to the Sensitive Subjects forum and let people say what they want to that want to go there in the first place.
I have no idea how to do that. You're the God, Rock! Can you?
Thanks ---
The Weasel
IMO this is a "Straight Forward" section, not the "Kinder, Gentler Feelings" section.
Rock, Dino, et al.
The description for this forum reads "This will be a very strict forum. It is for questions and answers. Any deviation from subject will be deleted.". David wrote his original post in an editorial fashion. He wasn't asking a question and he wasn't looking for answers. It is clear he was stating, and asking for, opinions.
Within the description of the forum, this topic does not belong here.
What am I missing?
max patch
08-13-2007, 19:13
What am I missing?
Well, he starts off the thread thusly:
"First off.. This post is not for the wingfoot bashers. I don't even want to go there.. Moderators please take note."
Doesn't look to me like he is asking for opinions. Just the opposite, actually. He probably doesn't want opinions as he knows that given half a chance the folks who are jealous of WF's accomplishments will come out and start bashing.
The Weasel
08-13-2007, 19:19
I've started a thread in "Sensitive Issues", which new members should note they have to actually go to (start at the main page for all forums). It is for commentary, free and unfettered, about Dan Bruce and Wingfoot, without - it is hoped - nastiness.
The Weasel
max patch
08-13-2007, 19:31
It is for commentary, free and unfettered, about Dan Bruce and Wingfoot, without - it is hoped - nastiness.
The Weasel
Horsepucky.
You know exactly how that thread will end.
You're still pissed that WF didn't invite you into his home when you knocked on his door in Hot Springs.
Can't say as I blame him.
Now, I think that every 2000 miler certificate is very valuable..but valuable principally to the person it is issued to.
Perhaps there are a number of questions implied by the statement above. Here are but a few.
Why might a buyer part with hundreds of dollars to own and presumably display someone else's 2000 miler certificate?
To what uses might one put a certificate? I would think that would influence how much one might be willing to pay.
Why might one person's certificate bring more than another's? For some purposes, wouldn't one certificate be the same as any other and thus bring a lower price than another certificate intended for use where a particular certificate might be more desireable or necessary?
What does a certificate symbolize to someone who's earned the right to apply for recognition and display it? What might a certificate symbolize to someone else who isn't the original owner of it?
What sorts of thoughts might one associate with this symbol and how might these come to change over time?
Does anyone reading this thread display a 2000 miler certificate other than their own or know someone who does? What are their reasons for doing so?
earlyriser26
08-14-2007, 09:40
Wow! I guess it bothers me that he would sell this stuff, but if he can get someone to pay for it more power to him. I find it more than a bit ironic that a republican basher like WF would be selling a letter from Regan. I guess his political beliefs only go so far.
Personally I received a lot of pleasure contributing to WF's forum. It kept me connected to the trail when I was not on it. His quide book is a tremendous resource for AT hikers. The "Locate a Shuttle" thread was one of the most extensive I have seen. The same thread on this site has zero shuttles listed in VA. We do not know the reason WF sold his certificate. Maybe it was something he cherished, but just needed to raise some cash for very personal reasons. Why do people spend thousands for a painting or a baseball? The fact that his certificate was worth $750 to someone tells me that his accomplishments were indeed notable. Think for a moment why his was worth so much. Why was it valuable to somone other than himself? Whether you agree or not with the many opinions he was willing to share about the AT and his philosphies, he kept the mysterious powers of the AT alive for many. He will be missed.
Appalachian Tater
08-14-2007, 10:20
The fact that his certificate was worth $750 to someone tells me that his accomplishments were indeed notable. Think for a moment why his was worth so much. Why was it valuable to somone other than himself?
Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.
I don't mean any disrespect by this, but what someone will pay for something is often inverse to its true worth.
People pay a lot of money for crack cocaine and child prostitutes, too.
A hiking certificate is not truly valuable because of how much someone is willing to pay for it, if it has any worth at all.
The Weasel
08-14-2007, 12:35
I note that these items seemed to have an asking price, and that they have been sold. I do not, however, see any confirmation that they were sold for the asking price. That's not my business, and the seller need not disclose the actual sale prices.
I also note that letters such as that "from President Reagan" are issued in the thousands from the White House as well as other government leaders. Many are not actually signed by the person they are from. For those who doubt, I can still do a pretty good signature for the Congressman I worked for (my job was issuing such letters) back in the '60s; he did not have an "auto pen" although they have been commonly used in such cases. If I were buying such a letter, for those prices, I would want authentication not from the recipient, but from a reputable autograph dealer.
The Weasel
I find it more than a bit ironic that a republican basher like WF would be selling a letter from Reagan.
Maybe it could have been sold as a set with the 1987 certificate?
Turbo Joe
08-14-2007, 12:43
think of it as hiking the at for $2000 with a $1000 dollar mail in rebate
The Weasel
08-14-2007, 19:45
I just noticed, for the first time, what is not being sold at TrailPlace: The copyrights for the Handbook. If Dan wanted to make serious money, he would sell them, thus permitting a purchaser to continue the series. Conversely, not selling them suggests that Dan may wish to do them again. Of all the things for sale, the copyright would be the most valuable.
The Weasel
john gault
08-14-2007, 21:56
I just noticed, for the first time, what is not being sold at TrailPlace: The copyrights for the Handbook. If Dan wanted to make serious money, he would sell them, thus permitting a purchaser to continue the series. Conversely, not selling them suggests that Dan may wish to do them again. Of all the things for sale, the copyright would be the most valuable.
The Weasel
Buying the rights to the handbook and producing it every year are two completely different things. I believe it would be very difficult to compete with the companion, just look at the extensive list of ALDHA field researchers in the front section of the companion, titled: "About the Companion".
While looking at this list, during my section hike early this year, I remember thinking that the ALDHA companion would, in the near future, out-compete the handbook. I based this prediction on the extensive resources of the ALDHA, and the assumption that WF's contacts were diminishing due to his ever-widening alienation from the AT community.
Also, I never understood why ALDHA allows the companion be made available on the Internet, how much does that affect their sales? (This is a rhetorical question, save me the anti-capitalistic talk).
SGT Rock
08-15-2007, 07:47
I think it may cut in some, but I also think in ways it helps some sales too. The first time I ever saw the Companion was at Neels Gap and absolutly hated the format. At that point it seemed like it was little more than a guide to AT shelters and towns - no data about the trail and it was laid out in a way that didn't make much sense to me. On the other hand the Thru-Hikers Handbook was laid out in a way that did and it included more than just how many bunks were at each shelter, so that is what I went with for a while.
Now they have changed the format of the Companion and, while it isn't perfectly how I like it, I now can see it contains information I am interested in and I can see how current it is. Because of that I have started buying the Companion. It is nice to be able to use it to plan while I sit here at my computer and then buy the same guide for hiking I have been using to plan.
Anyway, that is my $0.02.
Also, I never understood why ALDHA allows the companion be made available on the Internet, how much does that affect their sales?
This issue was brought up at the 2003 ALDHA gathering IIRC.
Sales actually were UP the first time it was offered online.
I don't think the sales have been affected.
Most people don't want to bother downloading the file and then printing out the information ( esp the whole thing).
I am lazy myself. Just as easy to spend the ~$20 and have it all done for me (printed, sorted, bound). I suspect other people feel the same way.
The Weasel
08-15-2007, 10:46
John: First of all, the copyright has more value than a hostel hat, even if no one publishes a new version. So if Dan is selling out totally, that's a valuable asset. Second, there are others who might use the idea in a different format - including online - and find the name valuable. So Dan, when you read this, think about selling the (c) as well.
The Weasel
Buying the rights to the handbook and producing it every year are two completely different things. I believe it would be very difficult to compete with the companion, just look at the extensive list of ALDHA field researchers in the front section of the companion, titled: "About the Companion".
While looking at this list, during my section hike early this year, I remember thinking that the ALDHA companion would, in the near future, out-compete the handbook. I based this prediction on the extensive resources of the ALDHA, and the assumption that WF's contacts were diminishing due to his ever-widening alienation from the AT community.
Also, I never understood why ALDHA allows the companion be made available on the Internet, how much does that affect their sales? (This is a rhetorical question, save me the anti-capitalistic talk).
john gault
08-15-2007, 11:07
This issue was brought up at the 2003 ALDHA gathering IIRC.
Sales actually were UP the first time it was offered online.
I don't think the sales have been affected.
Most people don't want to bother downloading the file and then printing out the information ( esp the whole thing).
I am lazy myself. Just as easy to spend the ~$20 and have it all done for me (printed, sorted, bound). I suspect other people feel the same way.
That's a good point I failed to make. I also believe most, if not all thru-hikers would not take the time and labor to print out the entire companion. I was just curious about the people that print out sections for a section-hike.
. I was just curious about the people that print out sections for a section-hike.
I honestly don't know. As mentioned, sales were up when it first offered online (granted, that was 4 yrs ago. I am not sure now).
Perhaps most section hikers are like Rock: They enjoy the full book, and print out sections as needed.
John: First of all, the copyright has more value than a hostel hat, even if no one publishes a new version. So if Dan is selling out totally, that's a valuable asset. Second, there are others who might use the idea in a different format - including online - and find the name valuable. So Dan, when you read this, think about selling the (c) as well.
The Weasel
Dan would like to sell the copyrite. He is most interested in selling it to either the Appalachian Trail Conservancy or Backpacker magazine but either way, he would like a multi year payoff on it. I'm not so sure anyone or group of individuals who wished to purchase the rights would be OK under the same deal. I suppose it would depend on the persons.
max patch
08-15-2007, 11:30
Dan would like to sell the copyrite. He is most interested in selling it to either the Appalachian Trail Conservancy or Backpacker magazine but either way, he would like a multi year payoff on it. I'm not so sure anyone or group of individuals who wished to purchase the rights would be OK under the same deal. I suppose it would depend on the persons.
Wow, if Backpacker bought it -- with the financial resources and publicity that Rodale would bring to the table -- the Companion would soon become a niche product.
Appalachian Tater
08-15-2007, 11:36
I don't know Dan Bruce, but from what I have read, the reason he is not selling the contents of his website or the copyright on his book is likely because he does not want to give up control. He had rather see them not exist than at all to exist without his control. Maybe someone who knows him should ask him.
The actual A.T. data cannot be copyrighted, anyway, so he would be selling the rights to just the name, format, and non-data material anyway.
As far as making the ALDHA Companion available online hurting sales, the best way to sell something is to offer a free sample.
too bad WF didnt think of donating some of the RARE items to the A.T.Museum.
would've been a great, lasting tribute.:D
the goat
08-15-2007, 12:55
Wow, if Backpacker bought it -- with the financial resources and publicity that Rodale would bring to the table -- the Companion would soon become a niche product.
if backpacker bought the copyright to the handbook, it would only be good for only one thing: the morning trip to the privy when you're out of TP. that's all their magazine is good for.
also, it would weigh 10 lbs with all the toyota, jeep, mountain bike, hummer, ATV, BMW, & GPS adds that would certainly make up the bulk of it.
Dan would like to sell the copyrite. He is most interested in selling it to either the Appalachian Trail Conservancy or Backpacker magazine but either way, he would like a multi year payoff on it. I'm not so sure anyone or group of individuals who wished to purchase the rights would be OK under the same deal. I suppose it would depend on the persons.
I contacted Dan the minute that he put everything up for sale and the first thing I mentioned to him was that I was interested in purchasing the copyrights. I wrote him three times asking him and never received a reply from him.
I know he got the email because I wrote him a forth time asking a question on something else and he answered me on that question but never got back to me on the copyrights.
I was contacted by someone else who told me that they contacted him asking about the copyrights and they replied to this other person and gave him a price, but never was I contacted. I guess it is because I am the owner of WhiteBlaze and he does not want WhiteBlaze to have anything to do with the handbook. That is just speculation on my part. The price was pretty steep needless to say for my pocket if what I was told was true.
I know that if we could get the handbook we could update it and publish it and keep this great asset going. I really hate to see this go away. My intentions were not to take control of it for profit but to keep a good thing going. This book has been a good asset to many thru hikers and section hiker alike. I do not see where the ATC would want this because they already publish The Companion and the Data Book, I could be wrong though. I could see where the backpacker would want this for making money on. They are all about making money now days.
Jack Tarlin
08-16-2007, 16:22
1. If the Handbook continues under another author and editor, that'd be fine.
2. If it doesn't, the world will keep spinning. The Thru-Hiker's Companion is out there,
is doing fine, and gets better every year.
3. Troll.....you mentioned the cost of the copyright was " pretty steep." Details?
4. Several folks have written me asking if I'm interested in taking over the The Thru-Hikers
Handbook. There seems to be a bunch of folks who think I not only would be good at
this task but would welcome the opportunity to take it on. Well, no, I wouldn't, and,
no, I'm not interested.
bulldog49
08-16-2007, 16:33
4. Several folks have written me asking if I'm interested in taking over the The Thru-Hikers
Handbook. There seems to be a bunch of folks who think I not only would be good at
this task but would welcome the opportunity to take it on. Well, no, I wouldn't, and,
no, I'm not interested.
I can't argue about the 2nd part of your answer, but I strongly dispute the 1st part.
Your annual update on resupply is the best planning info I've read anywhere and is immensly appreciated and valued.
I'd love to see this come about some day.
Appalachian Tater
08-16-2007, 17:13
Jack, your resupply guide was my main planning tool as well.
If you don't want to edit a guidbook it isn't because you wouldn't be good at it.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-16-2007, 17:29
Jack, you and I don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things, but I honestly can say that I cannot think of a more qualified person to take over that publication. However, I do understand that it would be a lot of work and that you already have a lot on your plate. I have no doubt that you could do a superior job of it, but unless you want it - and I mean really want it - it wouldn't be a good thing for Jack or the trail in the long run.
TJ aka Teej
08-16-2007, 17:40
Purchasing the "copyright" to Dan's book won't get you anything more than the title. There's no copyright to facts, and trail mileage, hostel locations, privy locations and the like, are facts. The Handbook format was of the Philosopher's Guide and the Data Book, both ATC publications, so there's certainly no need for ATC to "purchase" something they already owned.
As far as WhiteBlaze involvement, perhaps trying to update the 2003ish info in our own guide, perhaps even wiki-ing it, might be more useful than trying to compete with the ATC. Remember, everyone from Dan himself to Weary has said the Handbook was a money-losing proposition.
The Weasel
08-16-2007, 19:03
Purchasing the "copyright" to Dan's book won't get you anything more than the title. There's no copyright to facts, and trail mileage, hostel locations, privy locations and the like, are facts. The Handbook format was of the Philosopher's Guide and the Data Book, both ATC publications, so there's certainly no need for ATC to "purchase" something they already owned.
As far as WhiteBlaze involvement, perhaps trying to update the 2003ish info in our own guide, perhaps even wiki-ing it, might be more useful than trying to compete with the ATC. Remember, everyone from Dan himself to Weary has said the Handbook was a money-losing proposition.
"Copyright" is more than just the name and the facts. A publication's form, manner of organization, appearance, language and more goes into a copyright. Thus, the Encyclopedia Britannica may contain only "facts," but if someone ripped the binding off and put another title on the same pages, there would be a very clear copyright violation. As for the Handbook, it is sufficiently different from the ATC publications that it doesn't infringe. Even if it did, the passage of so much time for the two different series would be an adequate defense, I think.
As for "money losing," I think much of the reason for that was that for all his other virtues, Dan was a crappy marketer. He was a one-man show in terms of every aspect of data accumulation, writing, publishing, marketing and delivery. This is why he really messed up in 2000. Everyone forgave him, basically, but after that it became clear that he just couldnt keep it up by himself. Properly managed, there is no reason that the Handbook can't make a very tidy return, even with annual updates, both as a 'hard copy' and as a paid-internet "virtual book."
As for the price of the "rights" to the Handbook(s) and names and so on, I would estimate a modest value in the low 5 figures, more if Dan agreed to continue to serve as an "advisor" of some kind.
The Weasel
Skidsteer
08-16-2007, 21:14
Best of luck to them.
It's a big job to say the least.
smokymtnsteve
08-16-2007, 21:17
to boldy go to places where other hikers with really cool guidebooks have gone before
So Dan, when you read this, think about selling the (c) as well.
Who would want it? Would it be worth anything to someone other than WF?
Would you buy a WF book if it were not printed by WF?
One thing that makes his book valuable is the network of field workers who turn in data that goes into the book each year. You can not buy that network. The volunteers are not for sale.
Panzer
Hey gues, looks like someone was already working a new trail guide anyway:
www.atguidebook.com (http://www.atguidebook.com)
Probably another hiker fed up with errors in the guidebooks.
Well, if Dan doesn't sell his copyright soon, it won't be worth anything after another new guide book comes out.
Panzer
Jim Adams
08-17-2007, 01:16
IMO Wingfoots book was the best on the market. Much more info, more updated, better size and easier to use than the ATC book.
geek
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 07:51
Off-topic...
oldfivetango
08-17-2007, 08:23
Yup, Weasel's right.
I would like to "third" Weasel's motion.This is still AMERICA!!
Oldfivetango
oldfivetango
08-17-2007, 08:32
too bad WF didnt think of donating some of the RARE items to the A.T.Museum.
would've been a great, lasting tribute.:D
Yes Jaybird,it sure would have been a lasting tribute.
I remember reading in one of his diatribes once where
he berated the RIGHT for making money their GOD.
Oldfivetango
bulldog49
08-17-2007, 09:08
Off-topic...
Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-17-2007, 09:57
A gentle reminder that this thread is in the straight forward forum and is about the items WF has up for sell. It is not about WF himself nor the integrity of any of the posters here.
sherrill
08-17-2007, 12:59
I think a thread debating the merits of compteting guidebooks would be interesting.
As far as Dan selling his copyright to the guidebook, in my opinion I don't know why you'd want it. This would just allow you to publish in the format he created (font, color, design). As Teej pointed out, it's just facts, and you can't copyright facts, just the way you present them.
the goat
08-17-2007, 14:01
Jack, you and I don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things, but I honestly can say that I cannot think of a more qualified person to take over that publication. However, I do understand that it would be a lot of work and that you already have a lot on your plate. I have no doubt that you could do a superior job of it, but unless you want it - and I mean really want it - it wouldn't be a good thing for Jack or the trail in the long run.
A gentle reminder that this thread is in the straight forward forum and is about the items WF has up for sell. It is not about WF himself nor the integrity of any of the posters here.
:-?
thanks for the reminder, FD!:D
WF's items for sale are a steal for the pack-sniffers out there! does anyone know if "the center for appalachian trail studies" is on the auction block too? what will happen to all their employees? maybe the ATC would be interested in a merger.;)
The Weasel
08-17-2007, 14:06
:-?
thanks for the reminder, FD!:D
WF's items for sale are a steal for the pack-sniffers out there! does anyone know if "the center for appalachian trail studies" is on the auction block too? what will happen to all their employees? maybe the ATC would be interested in a merger.;)
The "Center" never had employees or staff other than Dan, I believe. I think it was incorporated as a NC "not-for-profit" corporation, but never obtained IRS deductibility status (I offered to do an application for Dan in 99, and he declined).
The Weasel
iliketacos
08-17-2007, 16:55
"pack-sniffers"?
"pack-sniffers"?
yeah, what's that?
TJ aka Teej
08-17-2007, 17:53
yeah, what's that?
Derogatory term used by elitist AT hikers to describe the non-hikers who try to ingratiate themselves into the Trail community.
The Weasel
08-19-2007, 18:49
I sort of think of Trailplace sometimes much as I think of former homes I've had; I may have moved past them to other places, but I still value them. Even more, it's saddened me to see places my folks built that have been torn down.
I think I feel a little like that about Dan's selloff of memorabilia, and whatever the cause, I hope he keeps things that really matter to him about the AT. Thinking that it's all just gone is a very sad thought.
The Weasel
Good post The Weasel.
That said, I remember the words of wisdom that Bruce Williams (Is that radio guy still around?) used to repeat: "Don't love anything that can't love you back".
A lot of people jettison "stuff" when they get older. Seems rather healthy to me.
The Weasel
08-19-2007, 19:00
Good post The Weasel.
That said, I remember the words of wisdom that Bruce Williams (Is that radio guy still around?) used to repeat: "Don't love anything that can't love you back".
A lot of people jettison "stuff" when they get older. Seems rather healthy to me.
Well, to share musical thoughts in that vein, "Objects in the rear view window may appear closer than they are." I hope Dan keeps things that will remind him of all these years and how good they were.
The Weasel
Good post The Weasel.
That said, I remember the words of wisdom that Bruce Williams (Is that radio guy still around?) used to repeat: "Don't love anything that can't love you back".
A lot of people jettison "stuff" when they get older. Seems rather healthy to me.
If Wingfoot is selling these things because his passion for the AT has been replaced with new interests, then I agree with you, Rick. Good for him to be able to part with his "stuff" and move on.
On the other hand, if Wingfoot is selling his most prized possessions because he needs the money to care for his aging parents, then I agree with the weasel. That would be sad.
Only Wingfoot knows his true motives. I wish him well.
The Weasel
08-19-2007, 19:06
If Wingfoot is selling these things because his passion for the AT has been replaced with new interests, then I agree with you, Rick. Good for him to be able to part with his "stuff" and move on.
On the other hand, if Wingfoot is selling his most prized possessions because he needs the money to care for his aging parents, then I agree with the weasel. That would be sad.
Only Wingfoot knows his true motives. I wish him well.
Roland ---
The three of us agree, by and large. But I'm worried a bit for Dan that this action, so sudden in appearance, is from some kind of anger or hurt, and is an attempt to purge himself of so many important ties to a long part of his life, since it's rare to see someone "move on to other interests" and get rid of such intensely valuable personal mementos as some of the items for sale seem to be. Perhaps I'm wrong (and I sincerely hope so), but I hope that Dan will keep other items that are even more meaningful to him than those he is disposing of.
As you say, only Dan knows, and I join you in wishing him well.
The Weasel
Appalachian Tater
08-19-2007, 19:28
From the way people have described him, it sounds as if ideas are more important to him than things. Maybe he just needs the money?
In a situation like this, public speculation and analysis as to why he is selling this stuff is slightly disrespectful.
The Weasel
08-19-2007, 19:43
With due regard for your feelings, 'tater, I don't think it is disrespectful to either speculate or consider the why, as long as it's done without either an intention to slam him or, if unintentional, the effect of doing so.
The Weasel
From the way people have described him, it sounds as if ideas are more important to him than things. Maybe he just needs the money?
In a situation like this, public speculation and analysis as to why he is selling this stuff is slightly disrespectful.
I certainly meant no disrespect to Wingfoot.
After looking at your posts to this forum, I can't imagine how you could characterize mine as disrespectful.
Jack Tarlin
08-23-2007, 13:23
Teej:
Gotta disagree with your description of the term "pack sniffer." (Post #90, above). It does indeed belong to folks who attach themselves to the hiking community; attend hiker events; and most of all, spend an inordinate amount of time on hiking-related websites dispensing "expert" opinions and advice.......without actually doing much, if any, hiking themselves.
It is indeed a term of disparagement, Teej, but there's nothing "elitist" about it's use.
It's a way to make light of folks who seem to have an endless thirst of knowledge and interest in all things hiking......without the onerous burden of actually doing any.
These people deserve, if not scorn, then at least a smile.
Appalachian Tater
08-23-2007, 13:55
I certainly meant no disrespect to Wingfoot.
After looking at your posts to this forum, I can't imagine how you could characterize mine as disrespectful.
Sorry, I didn't quote your post or mean to single you out. And yes, I was including myself. There is no need for public speculation. He could have posted the reasons on his website in his "goodbye" if he wanted it to be public. Although he has some celebrity in a limited community, he is an individual with a right to some privacy.
the goat
08-23-2007, 14:17
Teej:
Gotta disagree with your description of the term "pack sniffer." (Post #90, above). It does indeed belong to folks who attach themselves to the hiking community; attend hiker events; and most of all, spend an inordinate amount of time on hiking-related websites dispensing "expert" opinions and advice.......without actually doing much, if any, hiking themselves.
It is indeed a term of disparagement, Teej, but there's nothing "elitist" about it's use.
It's a way to make light of folks who seem to have an endless thirst of knowledge and interest in all things hiking......without the onerous burden of actually doing any.
These people deserve, if not scorn, then at least a smile.
indeed, thanks for clarifying that, Jack! i had overlooked tj's incorrect interpretation of the term's meaning.
and i reiterate my sentiment: WF's "yard sale" has tons of gems for all the pack-sniffers out there!:D
TJ aka Teej
08-24-2007, 07:36
Teej:
Gotta disagree with your description of the term "pack sniffer."
You seem more familiar with it than I am, Jack.
I've only heard it twice, used by thru-hiking hikers who held themselves in high regard, once referring to trail angels putting on a hiker feed, and once in reference to a Trail Journals fan that some hikers were sponging off.
I'll have to disagree with you that there's "nothing" elitist about its use.