Sub - 1 lb of equipment; Is it still backpacking

[Wolf - 23000]

:-? As I’m sure almost anyone who has been around backpacking knows; hiking with less than the 5-lb barricade is long in the pass by some 18 years. My question is now with equipment made weighting next to nothing is it possible to travel with less then a single pound of gear?

I’m heading out to do the JMT in just a few days for a long over due hike. This will be my fourth time doing the JMT. Because of time restrictions, I need to travel at a good rate of speed with no town stops. I began taken out all the things I know I really don’t need and believe I’m down to nearly the bare basic. With everything included, I should be traveling with right around 1 pound of gear. My question is can this still be consider backpacking???

Wolf

[john gault]

What's the JMT?
How long will you be out?
What will you food and water weight be?
What's your equipment list?

[Skidsteer]

Dunno.

Are you carrying it on your back or are you just gonna put your stuff in your pockets?

[SGT Rock]

It's backpacking. But you have to wonder if you are traveling light to make miles and is it worth it to make miles?

At a certain point you can slow down and do less miles. If you can't complete all the miles of the trail in the time allotted, you can still spend the same amount of time out there doing less miles, carry that five pounds, and enjoy the parts you can. Especially with all the miles you have already hiked.

That said, maybe you enjoy making the big miles more LOL.

[modiyooch]

slippery slope. If you enjoy the lesser weight too much, someone might call you a slacker. oops, I think that was you. btw, don't forget a benadryl pill.

[Egads]

It's backpacking if you carry shelter, bed, food, & water on your back.

I'd love to see your packlist to see how you get there.

I've got my big 4 down to ~3.5 lbs & skin out to ~14 lbs but have hit a plateau.

One thing for sure, backpacking is more enjoyable when SUL. I just noticed that all the responders are in the 40s. Perhaps this is the age when we really start feeling the weight.

John Gault, JMT is the John Muir Trail located in Calif. Google it for some nice pics.

Egads

[hopefulhiker]

I have heard you can go a few days without food.. You could go like the Man vs Wild. Just his canteen, bowie knife and flint...

[RockStar]

How's he gonna round up a camera crew on such short notice? Who's going to feed them? :)

[Wolf - 23000]

It's backpacking. But you have to wonder if you are traveling light to make miles and is it worth it to make miles?

At a certain point you can slow down and do less miles. If you can't complete all the miles of the trail in the time allotted, you can still spend the same amount of time out there doing less miles, carry that five pounds, and enjoy the parts you can. Especially with all the miles you have already hiked.

That said, maybe you enjoy making the big miles more LOL.

SGT Rock and others,

I think my post came out wrong. I do plan on hiking some good miles – but it also has to deal with where I am in my life. Right now I feel a need to push myself very hard. I know that hiking just over 200 miles (more if I have time) is hardly a challenge and cutting 2 pounds out of my normal pack weight won’t make a big different. This hike, I have about 12 days. I like to spend more time hiking and less time camping. Get down to the basic sore of speak. I’m hiking alone (big surprise there) so I don’t have to worry about running a partner to death or anything like that.

The 1 pound gear … is not saying much with the gear on the market today. It was just a matter of time and with my experience, I know I can do so safely. Egads, yes I’m talking about shelter, bed, clothing, etc. Food & water I’m not including in the 1 pound of gear but I will be carrying both and doing my own cooking, etc. I’m not a believer in relying on others for my needs.

Hopefulhiker, Rockstar and others, I’m not much into shows like Man vs Wild. What the shows lack is heart. The stars don’t have any more skills than several people on this site and often do things not to survive but just to get rating. I’m sure several members here on WB could do the same thing with less dramatizes.

A gear list, I’ll think about it but I really don’t think it would go over to well. There are too many members here that like to blast others on what they should or should not carry and often done by rookie hikers that don’t have a clue themselves. I already know what I need and what I don’t. I know others out there try to help when someone post a gear list, but I already have a system that I’m happy with.

Wolf

[oops56]

How about a gear list after the hike.:-?

[Wolf - 23000]

How about a gear list after the hike.:-?

What different does it make if it is before or after a hike??? There are still too many members here that like to blast others on what they should or should not carry. Everyone here is an expert and nobody a rookie. It sounds like a headache and a half.

I posted this question in the ultra-light form mainly for those who aready figure it out, what they need and what they don't. Posting a gear list would be really getting off topic.

Wolf

[oops56]

Well i cant see why you even a post like if not to share.As for me it be nice if i had a idea just to see if i got it or there a new thing that i could get.Get this some were there is a trail you can go naked now thats lightweight i got that.

[SGT Rock]

I get where you are coming from. The one time I went sub 5 it was to see if I could do it and to have fun with the concept as a concept. I did it, but can't say that I always want to go that way when I do go hiking - but like I said, I can see where you are going with this and why.

Saying all that, I am not sure what I would have to carry to go below one pound would be ultralight anymore, I would call that survival light.

[damush]

sounds like bull**** to me. post your gearlist.

[hopefulhiker]

Here is the lightest I can think of...

Free Luxury Litte knapsack.. gave them away at Trail days about 3 oz

Gatewood Cape, no stakes,make them on the trail (not sure about weight)

Adventure Emergency Bivy /Sleeping Bag

2 litre platypus

one hiking pole

small pocket knife

lighter

photon light

25 ft of rope

TP

Snow Peak 600 litre cup

[superman]

:-? As I’m sure almost anyone who has been around backpacking knows; hiking with less than the 5-lb barricade is long in the pass by some 18 years. My question is now with equipment made weighting next to nothing is it possible to travel with less then a single pound of gear?

I’m heading out to do the JMT in just a few days for a long over due hike. This will be my fourth time doing the JMT. Because of time restrictions, I need to travel at a good rate of speed with no town stops. I began taken out all the things I know I really don’t need and believe I’m down to nearly the bare basic. With everything included, I should be traveling with right around 1 pound of gear. My question is can this still be consider backpacking???

Wolf

Yup, it's hiking. If anyone gives you crap about it tell them Superman said that it's ok. LOL, seriously...have a great hike.

[oops56]

You dont need a back pack fanny pack any pack at all. Just one foot then the other. Like i think i hike over to grandma house, hike to your country store then when in town hike from one store to the other i think i take morning hike down the road and back before breakfast

[Gray Blazer]

Here is the lightest I can think of...

Free Luxury Litte knapsack.. gave them away at Trail days about 3 oz

Gatewood Cape, no stakes,make them on the trail (not sure about weight)

Adventure Emergency Bivy /Sleeping Bag

2 litre platypus

one hiking pole

small pocket knife

lighter

photon light

25 ft of rope

TP

Snow Peak 600 litre cup

Leave out the TP and use leaves. Whoops, did you say PCT....pine needles then. I assume you are capturing and cooking your food on a spit over a fire you made from some flint you found.

[hopefulhiker]

Wolf said he was not including food.. and yes If I was cooking i would use a fire and I did include a lighter.... and a pot...

[firemountain]

I think that many here are traditional and resistant to change. I found this post very interesting and inspiring, it describes and has pictures of a very complete sub 2lb gear list.

http://tinyurl.com/34lewc

Wolf- I would love to see your gear list, and I'm sure others would as well. I can see why you would not want to share it though. But if it helps even one hiker cut weight would it be worth all the flames?

Enjoy your hike!

[Crazy Legs]

I think that many here are traditional and resistant to change. I found this post very interesting and inspiring, it describes and has pictures of a very complete sub 2lb gear list.

http://tinyurl.com/34lewc



That is impressive! Inpiring even!

[The Solemates]

who gives a rat's behind. go have fun.

[DavidNH]

Where is this hike gonna be? Is the weather going to be perfect or do you expect rain, wind, heat cold etc? That would certainly effect how little you need to carry.

David

[Mags]

SThis hike, I have about 12 days.


The JMT in 12 days? That's about 18 MPD. I don't think a 1 lb pack is needed or any big sacrfice for that matter. Even a shlub like me can do that pace. :)

Seriously, that's moderately challening for someone new to backpacking. For an experienced thru-hiker known for large mileage days (like you !) ? Easy peasy. Mac n' cheesy.

Or are you looking to do it faster and 12 days are what you have total?

Anyway, why worry about equipment? As someone else put it: Don't worry about equipment. Just go out and enjoy yourself.

The problem I see with the trend in UL gear is that is it becoming less about hiking and more about the toys you bring. But that's another thread.

[taildragger]

Props to the weight drop.

I've dropped down maybe a 4 lbs pack while hunting (gun was never in the pack, so does that count?:-?) And I will say that it truly does make you realize what you do and don't need. And Gray Blazer, that was a trip that I did cook my kill over the fires, or didn't eat.

Personally for long distance hikes, I could never get into that mindset. Every now and then I like to just slack off, enjoy a good campsite, and possibly whip out my rod and go fishing. In those situations, I like to have my tent and my alcohol stove.

And as for the scouts, it does seem that all the ones that I've packed with carry tremendous weight (I think for an 8 day trip we got close to 60lbs each, most of that was food, but still, we had a ridiculous amount of stuff). Actually, they talked me into buying a 5500 CI pack, which I believe will be nice for extended winter hikes, or hikes where I don't plan on resupplying for long distances.

[modiyooch]

Here is the lightest I can think of...

Free Luxury Litte knapsack.. gave them away at Trail days about 3 oz

Gatewood Cape, no stakes,make them on the trail (not sure about weight)

Adventure Emergency Bivy /Sleeping Bag

2 litre platypus

one hiking pole

small pocket knife

lighter

photon light

25 ft of rope

TP

Snow Peak 600 litre cup on a serious note now and in answer to your question I am very obsessed with weight. I know longer carry a knife. I have things precut such as cheese and rope. I strip everything down and place in ziploc baggies including a squirt of toothpaste. I'm inclined to cut the toothbrush in half. I am carrying drops of facial wash. I do carry my water (I have learned that lesson). I carry a small cheap emergency ponch. Except for tomorrow - should be on top of mt washington, hopefully. I carry one pot, one spoon, and one cup. I don't carry a pad, but I am getting older and may reconsider my emergency kit is one benadryl, one pain reliever, one migraine pill, and one chocolate bar. My favorite piece of equipment is my bandana and it is very versatile. I do carry a tent but considering a hammock ( i don't like sleeping with bugs, snakes, or mice) I use a garbage bag to cover my pack at night. I am replacing equipment as technology gets lighter.

[modiyooch]

also, I only carry a summarized at data book (landmarks of roads, shelters, gaps)and only the pages that I need. I burn the pages when done. I do carry a copy of the road atlas for the area.

[Brrrb Oregon]

who gives a rat's behind. go have fun.

Exactly.

Let us assume that what you're proposing catches on. I think it would earn a different name than "backpacking", just for the purpose of communication, but what of it? If you are leaving no trace with only a pound on your back, then go ahead and be innovative. Re-think what you really need when you venture into the wilderness.

I didn't look at your list, but the only concern I have is that you don't have a "nothing-is-going-to-go-wrong" list. Still, as long as you aren't going to make yourself a pain in the hind end to the local sheriff's department and rescue community if you are 12 hours late, I don't see why you wouldn't go for it.

[damush]

i'm thinking about severing my left arm, should save a good 8 lbs...got two kidneys and can get by with one, there's another 2 or 3 lbs.

[Roland]

i'm thinking about severing my left arm, should save a good 8 lbs...got two kidneys and can get by with one, there's another 2 or 3 lbs.

Hey, it's been done (http://www.aralston.com/)before, though not for the same reasons.

[Wolf - 23000]

I didn't look at your list, but the only concern I have is that you don't have a "nothing-is-going-to-go-wrong" list. Still, as long as you aren't going to make yourself a pain in the hind end to the local sheriff's department and rescue community if you are 12 hours late, I don't see why you wouldn't go for it.

Brrb,

I don't backpack with the belief nothing is going to go wrong. I've backpack enough to know better. The JMT has no access roads, a pain in the butt to get into most towns, snow, stream crossings, and best of all cell phones I don't believe will work. Nothing like the AT. It will be fun!!!

Wolf

[Dirtygaiters]

What different does it make if it is before or after a hike??? There are still too many members here that like to blast others on what they should or should not carry. Everyone here is an expert and nobody a rookie. It sounds like a headache and a half.

I posted this question in the ultra-light form mainly for those who aready figure it out, what they need and what they don't. Posting a gear list would be really getting off topic.

Wolf



Let me just say this firstly, since it's important: I am very interested in seeing your gear list and I think a lot of other people here are too. If not to get our own pack weights down, then at least to understand how little gear a person actually needs for a 12 day hike. It's incredibly interesting to some of us, and I know that many of us would really appreciate seeing your gear list.

Now, in response to the above quote...

Here's the differece it would make if you posted a gear list before or after your hike. If you're insecure about your gear list, and somebody here pointed out what they thought was a critical flaw, in your lack of a certain item, and though you said it wasn't a flaw to yourself over and over, the certain piece of gear that you didn't have might press on your mind obnoxiously over the course of your solo hike to the point that even though you wouldn't normally need that certain piece of gear, you might begin to fear the situation where you'd need it as you hike and maybe the trip would be less enjoyable because of that one person on this forum who just had to have his say. At least, that's the only scenario I can imagine.

Since you say this is not the case, then the only conclusion I can come to it that you're not posting a gear list because you don't want to be made fun of. To me, that is very childish.

Look, we're all rookies in life. We are all constantly learning. Many of us want to learn how to more efficiently hike long distances. It's one of our hobbies, an obsession to some. You've got to learn not to take what everybody says at face value. There are people who will say anything on the internet and there's no way to stop them. You think you can deny them their amminution, but I think that's the same BS logic that a third grade teacher uses when one student acts up, and she punishes her whole class by canceling a field trip or closing the blinds every morning for the rest of the year. There's a beautiful state park near where I live that's on a medium sized, but swift-flowing river. Last year, a few idiots who didn't know how to swim drowned in the river. So park officials put up No Swimming signs all over the place and started handing out fines to swimmers. That type of logic is completely backwards, and it's the same type of logic that you're using. You're denying good people good information just because of what you "know" some critics will say. Again, we know that there's no way to stop them criticising once they have an opportunity, but just because they're talking, doesn't mean you have to listen to them! You don't have to let them hurt your feelings, Wolf. Post on the internet long enough and you'll learn that one way or another. It's completely within your power to ignore them, as it is within the power of the other on-topic posters here who don't want to see this thread divert into an ethics debate. Yet we do really want to see your gear list and we'd really appreciate your posting it:)

[JAK]

:-? As I’m sure almost anyone who has been around backpacking knows; hiking with less than the 5-lb barricade is long in the pass by some 18 years. My question is now with equipment made weighting next to nothing is it possible to travel with less then a single pound of gear?

I’m heading out to do the JMT in just a few days for a long over due hike. This will be my fourth time doing the JMT. Because of time restrictions, I need to travel at a good rate of speed with no town stops. I began taken out all the things I know I really don’t need and believe I’m down to nearly the bare basic. With everything included, I should be traveling with right around 1 pound of gear. My question is can this still be consider backpacking???

WolfPersonally I don't like the term backpacking, because it puts too much emphasis on the backpack. Just as I would rather live in a dwelling, than live in a building, I would rather go hiking than backpacking. So the answer is no, its not backpacking, not if you don't want it to be.

So what is your planned skin out weight?

[Egads]

This is the lightest commercially available set up that I can put together.

Nunatak Arc AT down quilt 8 oz
Oware fly w/ tyvek ground sheet ~8 oz
MLD Revelation Pack 3.5 oz
Sea to Summit sack 2 oz (for quilt & clothes)
Grub bag & rope 4 oz
2 L platy 2 oz
Flint & striker 2 oz
Chem H2O treatment 2 oz
Compass / map 2 oz
No headlamp
No pad
No bivy
No stove
No trekking poles

Total w/o food, water, clothes = 34 oz = 2 lbs 2 oz

If Wolf 23000 isn't going to provide a gear list, someone else please tell me how to cut this gear list's weight in half?

Perhaps this thread needs to be moved to hiking humor.

Egads

[taildragger]

egads,

get rid of the oware and tyvek, learn how to make a survival shelter
don't treat water
don't need magnesium if you eat cold food (bring maybe 6 matches in case of SHTF)

now you're sub 2 lbs

And this is a way of backpacking that I've never done for long distance

Wolf, I'd really like to hear what your total weight will be, (food, clothes, boots, caluses on feet, etc)

[Franco]

I should be traveling with right around 1 pound of gear. My question is can this still be consider backpacking???

No, it's surviving.
In your case it has to do with proving a point and that is fine with me. But it has nothing to do with backpacking.
I am confident that you will not find any outdoor instructor or National Park warden or any search and rescue volunteer that could possibly consider a solo 12 day hike with a pound of gear anything more, at best, than a dare.
Please feel free to laugh at my comments since you have already hiked the JMT 3 times and I have not.

Franco

[Lone Wolf]

it's just a stunt

[JAK]

Or it's a riddle. ;)

[Jaybird]

[QUOTE=Wolf - 23000;393316]:-? As I’m sure almost anyone who has been around backpacking knows; hiking with less than the 5-lb barricade is long in the pass by some 18 years. My question is now with equipment made weighting next to nothing is it possible to travel with less then a single pound of gear



i LOVE seeing these posts from the ULTRA-LITE backpacker fanatics!

even tho' your pack weighs mere ounces...its the FOOD that weighs the most in your pack these days...& unless you're a survival training graduate....you'll have to take 5-7 days of food minimum on the JMT.....or will there be emergency air-drops involved?
:D

[rickb]

I could care less what you carry your stuff in, and what you will take to keep warm, since I have that all figured out.

I would be curious what a person like yourself (one who is keen on keeping weight down to a bare min) carries for food over that distance, however.

If you care to share, I might learn something. If not, that's OK too.

Rick B

[Jim Adams]

I should be traveling with right around 1 pound of gear. My question is can this still be consider backpacking???

No, it's surviving.
In your case it has to do with proving a point and that is fine with me. But it has nothing to do with backpacking.
I am confident that you will not find any outdoor instructor or National Park warden or any search and rescue volunteer that could possibly consider a solo 12 day hike with a pound of gear anything more, at best, than a dare.


Franco

The above statement is generally true. That is because most of them are "taught" by others in the same profession instead of people who actually get out there and do backpack!
I have been a paramedic for 30 years and I am around park rangers, park wardens and especially volunteer search and rescue all the time. The problem is that they are not "taught" by the people who can actually teach them better ways. They are taught by people who must follow a book, usually written prior to ANY thoughts of light weight gear, that details exactly what equipment that they must purchase and use. I have gone on several search and rescue training weekends as the medical officer and I am constantly ridiculed when I show up with my 2800ci pack weighing 21 lbs.
They all show up carrying 5000-6000ci. packs totally stuffed and the other "essentials" strapped to the outside. Usually these packs weigh in at 70-100 lbs. depending on the size of the person carrying the pack. A female friend of mine who is 5'0" and 97 lbs. was kicked off of the local SAR team when she had difficulty carrying the 5200ci, 78 lb. pack that they recommended was minimal for her to survive during rescue operations.
I have tried to explain that they can use lighter items like a nylon tarp instead of the "blue" polyethelyne tarps that they carry. There response is: " That light weight crap will never hold up!"
I am amazed that I am ALWAYS more comfortable than they are while in camp and they always tend to hang out in my camp. They sit in my camp at night and ask me questions about my equipment and how and why I do things but they will NEVER attempt those things themselves because their "book" says that it wont work. So much tunnel vision!
At least my friend now has more time for lightweight backpacking with me since they kicked her off the team!:D

geek

[Jim Adams]

Wolf-23000,
Hell with your gear list...I want to take you camping with the SAR guys! LOL

geek

[JAK]

I still think it's a riddle.
[QUOTE=Wolf - 23000;393316]...My question is now with equipment made weighting next to nothing is it possible to travel with less then a single pound of gear?

...My question is can this still be consider backpacking???
First question depends on definition of gear.
i.e. does gear include a clothing?

Second question depends on definition of backpacking.
i.e. what you just sling a bag of food over your shoulder?

I would rather live in a dwelling, than build a building.
I would rather go for a hike, than fill a bag with gear.

I think that might be what Wolf might be getting at.
i.e. what is the essence of the term backpacking?

[JAK]

I still think it's a riddle.

"...My question is now with equipment made weighting next to nothing is it possible to travel with less then a single pound of gear?"
"...My question is can this still be consider backpacking???"

First question depends on definition of gear.
i.e. does gear include a clothing?

Second question depends on definition of backpacking.
i.e. what you just sling a bag of food over your shoulder?

I would rather live in a dwelling, than build a building.
I would rather go for a hike, than fill a bag with gear.

I think that might be what Wolf might be getting at.
i.e. what is the essence of the term backpacking?

[the goat]

a sub-1lb. gear list exists only in the imagination, that's why there's no list.

[JAK]

The gear list doesn't exist because it's not pertinent to the questions asked.

[tanpuma]

I like to read the Sub ultra lighter's gear lists to see if there is a lighter option for me to adapt. Some things though I can't live without like hot nutritious food,or a warm sleeping bag. This is my preference, but I do get inspired by some of the light options and solutions implemented by others.

[SGT Rock]

Well if you think about it...

1 - 1.5 ounce bag for carrying food (take a large sil-nylon stuff sack and add a shoulder strap)
1 - 0.9 ounce bottle for carrying water
1 - 4.6 ounce poncho for rain gear and shelter
1 - 0.5 ounces for cord to set up the poncho as a shelter
1 - 8 ounce space blanket for making a bed wrap - sleep in clothes.

Now in your pockets carry :
lighter
knife
map

On your wrist carry:
watch with compass

On your body:
Zip off pants
Shoes and socks
Short sleeve T
Long sleeve shirt you can take off or put on
Hat
Sunglasses
+ whatever else you may want to add/remove

You don't HAVE to cook or treat water if you don't want to. You can deal with some pretty odd weather if you know what to use from the ground Like leaves for insulation and for fill around you and under the space blanket.

It could be done.

[JAK]

Along the same lines as the Rock, if you wore a traditional woolen great kilt with sporan for fire kit etc, then all you would be left needing would be some sort of shoulder bag for food, assuming you weren't planning on poaching deer or stealing cattle on the JMT. Anyhow, this wouldn't be minimum skin-out weight, but it would be safe enough, and it would hardly be right to call it backpacking. As long as you have enough wool to be warm at night under a light nylon rain cape, during the day you could wear the wool as loose as it needs to be to stay cool and dry out. Or you could do the Inca thing, with a heavy wool poncho instead of the kilt, but again something for food other than a backpack. Of course as the food gets up to 15# or more perhaps at some point you might carry it on both shoulders, and that has an equally long tradition, but you still don't have to call it backpacking if you don't want to. What we do is much older than the term backpacking. Call it whatever best suits your mind, mood, and spirit.

[Franco]

Jim Adams
I totally agree with you.
Your post is not that dissimilar to what I have posted before and what I am trying to promote here , in Melbourne, at a retail level. I constantly try to get the local buyers to focus more on lighter products.
My typical 3 to 5 days pack, total weight including food, is around 20 pounds. But both of us are positively heavy weight compared to the fictitious 1 pound "pack".
I do realize that if one starts with a poncho/tarp/liner and does not take that in account it can be done, but than again I could roam around areas with water for a couple of weeks without any food and SURVIVE, but I would not call that backpacking .
I think that this kind of stunt serves no purpose except for self glorification.
Franco

[JAK]

Jim Adams
I totally agree with you.
Your post is not that dissimilar to what I have posted before and what I am trying to promote here , in Melbourne, at a retail level. I constantly try to get the local buyers to focus more on lighter products.
My typical 3 to 5 days pack, total weight including food, is around 20 pounds. But both of us are positively heavy weight compared to the fictitious 1 pound "pack".
I do realize that if one starts with a poncho/tarp/liner and does not take that in account it can be done, but than again I could roam around areas with water for a couple of weeks without any food and SURVIVE, but I would not call that backpacking .
I think that this kind of stunt serves no purpose except for self glorification.
FrancoI think you are misinterpreting the spirit of this thread to suit your own purposes, but of course, so am I. Anyhow, I don't think anyone is talking about going anywhere without food. It's about thinking outside of the backpack. It's about hiking, or tramping, or trekking, or trudging, or whatever you want to call it, as long as you don't call it backpacking. Perhaps it's about getting away from the sleeping bag also, and all the worries that goe with it. My understanding is the skin out weight might actually go up if you do this, but nobody seems to give a darn about skin out weight in this thread. Perhaps that was the point of the thread, that skin out weight is more important than pack weight. Perhaps this thread is about whatever you want it to be, and so is the hiking, or whatever you wish to call it, and perhaps that is the point.

It certainly isn't about buying or selling gear, unless of course you want it to be.

[Franco]

Fair enough.
I have put together that EXACT 1 pound gear list and will wonder around the bush with it for 12 days and let you know what happened when I get back.
Franco

[slow]

First off HI to all.
This has great members with lot's of smarts and im happy....more so proud to learn from.

I live in FL and walked many of miles in swamps for 25yrs,and been hit twice by my water buddy....If i had 1lb and no help ...well.

Things happen REAL QUICK.

[BucketHeadnBryn]

I'd bet a "traditional woolen great kilt" weighs more than a pound.

[JAK]

I'd bet a "traditional woolen great kilt" weighs more than a pound.Your darn right it does. That's my point. We could be talking about skin out weight, but we are not. Your missing a good thread.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Fair enough.
I have put together that EXACT 1 pound gear list and will wonder around the bush with it for 12 days and let you know what happened when I get back.If you get back! Please be careful. You are one of my favorite people with whom to discuss new homemade gear designs.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

a sub-1lb. gear list exists only in the imagination, that's why there's no list.I'm beginning to feel The Goat is correct.

[The Old Fhart]

In the AMC Mountain Safety Workshops we teach that you don't have to carry as much gear if you're only going one way. :rolleyes:

[JAK]

OK. What are we calling gear?
Aren't we only including what is in the pack?

If you wear a woolen blanket, does it not keep you warm?

[JAK]

Perhaps nothing is safe unless its purchased in a store.

[Cuffs]

Oddly, 23000, hasnt been around since the 16th....

Did you guys scare him off?!?

[JAK]

Oddly, 23000, hasnt been around since the 16th....

Did you guys scare him off?!?He is probably out hiking.

There is probably a message there, if we look for it hard enough. :)

[taildragger]

the original list was only gear in pack, he said that he didn't include food, so why are so many people talking about roaming the woods for 12 days w/o food. Is it really hard to get past whats gear IN THE BAG versus skin out weight?

[JAK]

the original list was only gear in pack, he said that he didn't include food, so why are so many people talking about roaming the woods for 12 days w/o food. Is it really hard to get past whats gear IN THE BAG versus skin out weight?I hear you. That's wear I think it might be more of a riddle, intended to make us think outside of the box, or outside of the backpack to be more precise. It's about investigating the true essence of travel on foot, rather than just spending money to fill a silly bag full of stuff, then spending more to reduce its weight. Sure, sooner or later you might end up with part of the solution being a pack on your back, but that's not the only solution. More essentially, it doesn't begin and end there, with the backpack, so perhaps it shouldn't be called backpacking, That is really not what it's all about, unless perhaps you are a retailer.

It's rather like calling the art of fine dining 'grocery bagging'.
Perhaps it sounds better than 'gastonomics', but that's not my point. :D

[Egads]

I think 23000 started this thread just to start controversy and see how many posts that he can get.

Rock is right that you can put together a spartan 1 lb list for summer conditions. I'd hate to have that pack with rainy weather and temps in the 40s which is possible on the JMT in any season. Also, 23000 wrote about needing to move fast & make mileage. You can not do that if you have to build a shelter out of limbs & duff. You would waste too much time that could be spent on 3-4 more miles.

I'd much rather have a 3 lb gear packlist and some comfort. Certainly 23000 is a seasoned hiker and in good health. Two more lbs would not slow him down and would provide much more safety & comfort.

We have not heard from 23000 because he is either hiking or accumulating posts. He may have a bet w/ Mweinstone to see who gets the longest running thread.

My 2 cents

Egads

[JAK]

But on the subject of minimal hiking and actual gear solutions, I wonder if under certain conditions a light wool blanket and perhaps one of those space bags might outperform a sleeping bag. I know wool is heavy. Even the lightest merino wool seems to come in at about 8oz per yard, perhaps less. But the nice thing about it is that it absorbs alot of moisture if your sleeping inside something like a space bag, and the next day you might wear it like a poncho or cape until it dries out. Of course you might already have a skin layer and wind layer, but this could be on top of that. Of course you can wear quilts and sleeping bags as outer garments also, but as I see because of the shell layers, quilts don't really kick in terms of their superiority until at least 16oz, and full sleeping bags perhaps 2 pounds, and you still need a ground pad. With wool and some minimal vapour barrier you might be more likely to get by without the ground pad. Sleeping bags and quilts need lots more added protection also, and cannot be dried so easily by a fire. So they tend to need more of a proper backpack, and some additional clothes in case of cold rain during your hike, whereas that weight might be added to your wool and cape system.

To compare any two systems honestly, we would need to look at total weight, skin out, how it is to be used, and the climate and topography for which it is intended. Perhaps that's not the intent of the initial post, but it certainly wasn't advocating wandering around naked in the wilderness, though perhaps it might do us some good.

So what are the climate extremes of the JMT for this time of year? I've become rather curious. What would be the ground temperature and exposure of the worst of the more suitable places to spend the night? I wonder what John Muir wore when he hiked it. Did he wander the hills in nothing but his belted plaid, or was he in cahoots with Abercrombie & Fitch. ;)

[Dirtygaiters]

I'm not so sure about this being a riddle, JAK. The question was, Is a 12 day hike with sub-1 lb base weight considered backpacking? but there's a seriously large omission in Wolf's question. 12 days' travel, not cooking, would mean, to me, at least 20 lbs of food at the start of the trip. So it's not a 1 lb pack at all that Wolf is carrying, it's a 21 lb pack, without any water. So the answer to his question is a big fat YES. If you have 21 lbs to carry, it sure makes a lot of sense to me to carry it in a backpack, as opposed to trying to fill up the cargo pockets of your pants, or just using a stuffsack with a sling. This is saying nothing of whether it would be such a terrible burden for a reasonably fit person to bring an extra pound of two of gear so he isn't a danger to his own safety (and we've got to assume that a person who is fit enough to hike the JMT is fit enough to bring an extra couple pounds on his back). This is also, of course, assuming that Wolf is telling the truth when he says that he has such a gossamer light gear list.

I'm from the Show Me State. If Wolf actually has a sub-1 lb gear list, then I'll believe it when it see it. For now, however, I'm skeptical.

[JAK]

1. He didn't say 12 days. Perhaps he plans in doing it in 8 days. It's been done in 4 days.

2. Even if you bring a backpack, it doesn't need to be called backpacking.

3. It's nonsense to talk about pack weight rather than total weight?

It's not about the backpack. I think that was his point. It's mine anyway.
Anyhow, I'm feeling hungry, so I'm going to go do some grocerybagging.

[the goat]

1. He didn't say 12 days. Perhaps he plans in doing it in 8 days. It's been done in 4 days.
.


SGT Rock and others,

I think my post came out wrong. I do plan on hiking some good miles – but it also has to deal with where I am in my life. Right now I feel a need to push myself very hard. I know that hiking just over 200 miles (more if I have time) is hardly a challenge and cutting 2 pounds out of my normal pack weight won’t make a big different. This hike, I have about 12 days. I like to spend more time hiking and less time camping. Get down to the basic sore of speak. I’m hiking alone (big surprise there) so I don’t have to worry about running a partner to death or anything like that.

(emphasis mine.)

[Jaybird]

Oddly, 23000, hasnt been around since the 16th....
Did you guys scare him off?!?




mAYBE he's out with his MICRO-PACK!....hiking!
hehehehehehe:D

[Dirtygaiters]

1. He didn't say 12 days. Perhaps he plans in doing it in 8 days. It's been done in 4 days.

2. Even if you bring a backpack, it doesn't need to be called backpacking.

3. It's nonsense to talk about pack weight rather than total weight?

It's not about the backpack. I think that was his point. It's mine anyway.
Anyhow, I'm feeling hungry, so I'm going to go do some grocerybagging.

1. Yes he did.
2. Nothing needs to be called anything. I'll call it backpacking because that's a widely used term for the type of activity where a person is hiking long distances, wearing a backpack, and relying on what's inside the backpack for survival. If you want to get in your car, accellerate it down a street, stop at lights, turn onto other streets and eventually bring it to a stop in a parking space and call it Gripping, then more power to you! but I'll still call it driving because that's the widely accepted term for that activity.

I don't think you're getting what I was trying to say. I'm not saying that we should change the conventions we use to compare pack weight. The answer to Wolf's question, however--in this case--does depend on looking at both pack weight and total weight. Wolf was talking about his load like he actually had only one pound to carry (or less, going on what he was hinting at). If he only had a pound of "stuff" to carry, then, I agree, it could all just be put in a sling bag and carried under a shoulder. That wouldn't be backpacking to me. That would be just hiking with a bag of stuff. However, since the length of his trip necessitates him carrying so many pounds of food (more than 15lbs for 2+ days of hiking), the advantages in comfort and carrying ability of backpacks basically dictates that he would be using some type of a backpack. Then, in that case, going on that trip, with the 1-lb pack list which may or may not exist, in addition to so many pounds of food, all carried inside of a backpack, would indeed be backpacking. If he left out all the food, and instead brought a rifle or a bow so that he was going on a trip with some shelter/sleep gear but was basically going to live off the land, then in that case it could be called hunting--or surviving, depending on how good of a shot he is. Again, nothing has to be called anything. Not even your third grade English teacher is going to stop you from calling backpacking Snopfarfing, but try to talk about Snopfarfing with other people and you'll have to explain that it's really backpacking you're trying to talk about before they'll understand you. There's no real advantage to be had in not using pre-existing words to describe what you want to describe.

[JAK]

"I don't think you're getting what I was trying to say."

True, but ditto. Conventions are useful, but so is stepping back and questioning them now and then rather than just regurgitate the same old group think over and over again. I'm not saying we need to try and re-invent the wheel either. Sometimes we just need to rotate the wheel back a few quarter turns. Even if we don't end up changing our ways, the process can give us a better understanding. The live unexamined, and all that.

[JAK]

p.s.
Would you rather live in a building, or a dwelling?
Who was it built for? You, or the land developer?

I don't like to call it backpacking. I like to call it a hike in the woods.

[JAK]

I like the term they use in New Zealand. Tramping.
I think it does a better job of capturing the spirit.

[Egads]

Snopfarfing? I thought it was called Snopfarting. Doesn't everyone fart on the trail?

[dloome]

Brrb,

snow
Wolf

Not this year... :rolleyes:

[Franco]

Jak
"I think you are misinterpreting the spirit of this thread to suit your own purposes, but of course, so am I. Anyhow, I don't think anyone is talking about going anywhere without food. It's about thinking outside of the backpack. It's about hiking, or tramping, or trekking, or trudging, or whatever you want to call it, as long as you don't call it backpacking. "
The funny part is that we actually agree about the terminology.

The original question was , once again, and I quote "My question is can this still be consider backpacking???"
I was one of the few that actually replied with a strait " No, it's surviving" answer rather than speculate about the real meaning of it.
I could be wrong but since this is a post in the Ultra light Hikers forum and not the Buddhist philosophy one , I took the question at face value.
You deliberately chose to focus on my obvious exaggeration of going without food, in case you have missed my point it was to emphasize that there are many ways to go "light" but at some point it is not backpacking.
And in case it wasn't clear, I am only wondering in my mind not wandering in the bush, about why would I trek for 12 days on survival mode unless I actually was put in that situation without a choice. In this case the thread originator just wants to prove something to himself. Again that is OK by me because my taxes don't end up financing rescue missions for unprepared hikers over there.
I like to quote Wolf 2300 again "I do plan on hiking some good miles – but it also has to deal with where I am in my life. Right now I feel a need to push myself very hard. I know that hiking just over 200 miles (more if I have time) is hardly a challenge and cutting 2 pounds out of my normal pack weight won’t make a big different. This hike, I have about 12 days. I like to spend more time hiking and less time camping. Get down to the basic sore of speak. I’m hiking alone (big surprise there) so I don’t have to worry about running a partner to death or anything like that."
Does that sound like a riddle to you or, as I stated , that Wolf needs to do that hike to prove something to himself. I think the one that is twisting the argument is you and not me
And BTW there are several good reasons why woolen blankets or woolen ponchos are not used as the preferred method of staying warm by most backpackers.
Franco

[Jim Adams]

If he puts his one pound of gear in a fannypack, is it called buttpacking? If he spins the fannypack so that it is in front, is it called frontpacking?
Come on guys! If he can hike the 200 miles with only a pound of gear plus food and he is out there with all the other backpackers of course he is backpacking. If he can do it and be comfortable thats even better and good for him. He can hike with less weight and less comfort in camp. Others can hike with more weight and be more comfortable in camp and at rest stops.
Whats the difference...I don't care what you call it, they are both are out walking and camping in the mountains.
Backpacking is just a term.

geek

[JAK]

"And BTW there are several good reasons why woolen blankets or woolen ponchos are not used as the preferred method of staying warm by most backpackers."
Relevance?

[JAK]

I guess he was the guy that mentioned 12 days. I guess that is a moderately fast pace even if some have done it in 4 or 5. I still don't get the point of discussing pack weight without discussing clothing weight, which is why I thought it was some sort of a riddle. I still maintain the original thread goes to the heart of "what is backpacking", which led me to consider it a philosophical question rather than mere semantics, and rhetoric. Perhaps I was mistaken. Shame.

[JAK]

"Most people are on the world, not in it; have no conscious sympathy or relationship to anything about them, undiffused, separate, and rigidly alone like marbles of polished stone, touching but separate."
- John Muir

[Franco]

"And BTW there are several good reasons why woolen blankets or woolen ponchos are not used as the preferred method of staying warm by most backpackers."
Relevance?
Here is a quote from ....JAK, in this very thread
"I wonder if under certain conditions a light wool blanket and perhaps one of those space bags might outperform a sleeping bag."
To clarify, I doubt that someone that intend to use a 1 pound kit will choose a woolen blanket.
Franco

[JAK]

Your response still seems an irrelevant shallow response to my question.

My question:
"I wonder if under certain conditions a light wool blanket and perhaps one of those space bags might outperform a sleeping bag."

Your response:
"And BTW there are several good reasons why woolen blankets or woolen ponchos are not used as the preferred method of staying warm by most backpackers."

You appear to lack any imagination or original thinking. Sales?

[JAK]

It should be obvious by now that you and I have nothing worth discussing, because our minds work differently and we see the world differently. We should probably stop criticizing one anothers posts and just go ahead and make our own observations in our own way and as we see fit.

[Franco]

OK I will agree to disagree so this is my last post on this matter.
Twice you have now stated or implied that I have some sort of "selling" agenda.
That really confirms that you are the one that is twisting the argument to suit yourself and has nothing to do with the original question.
So that you are aware I am not now and never have sold any outdoor gear, apart from some of my used equipment.
A lot can be understood by a comment like " I guess that he was the guy that mentioned 12 days"
No, you are not guessing, he did state that.
You questioned my comment about the blanked and I just reminded you that it was your in the first place, I cannot see what is irrelevant or shallow about that.
Again if you are suggesting that it takes a lateral thinker to come up with the idea of using a woolen blanket as an "ultra lightweight solution" and in this case the thread started with an "hyper lightweight" question, I am saying that it does not work.
Franco

[JAK]

Well it shouldn't take a Myers Briggs test to figure out we are different.

[zelph]

:-? As I’m sure almost anyone who has been around backpacking knows; hiking with less than the 5-lb barricade is long in the pass by some 18 years. My question is now with equipment made weighting next to nothing is it possible to travel with less then a single pound of gear?

I’m heading out to do the JMT in just a few days for a long over due hike. This will be my fourth time doing the JMT. Because of time restrictions, I need to travel at a good rate of speed with no town stops. I began taken out all the things I know I really don’t need and believe I’m down to nearly the bare basic. With everything included, I should be traveling with right around 1 pound of gear. My question is can this still be consider backpacking???

Wolf

It would still be considered backpacking. You'll use a backpack to carry your food and water.

Have fun!!!!!

[tanpuma]

hey I had two other ideas for a smaller load:
1) a cache, or a drop bag with some food and fuel ( hung or protected in some way from critters.
2) visit restuarants/stores for meals ( Not for you Wolf as you specify no town visits) this could work for certain trails or sections with easy access, say for example SNP on the AT there are restuarants and/or campstores with food every 25 miles almost right on the trail.

[Nightwalker]

I get where you are coming from. The one time I went sub 5 it was to see if I could do it and to have fun with the concept as a concept. I did it, but can't say that I always want to go that way when I do go hiking - but like I said, I can see where you are going with this and why.

Saying all that, I am not sure what I would have to carry to go below one pound would be ultralight anymore, I would call that survival light.

We all have different versions of light, as well. I recently went out for 5 days, carrying all the supplies for me and my dog, and we left the trailhead at 28 or so pounds including food and water. I also cook one meal per day and have hot tea twice per day.

That weight was a big accomplishment for me to be able to get to with mine and her supplies as well as hammock, tarp etc. Walking with under 30 on the back is just the bomb. I've only went under 25 for 3+ days twice, and it was even better.

I still think 28 pounds on a trail with no shelters and carrying supplies for 1.5 for 5 days is pretty good. And I did it with what I didn't carry, not with expensive UL stuff. :)

If I'd have carried a less-comfy pack, it'd have been 26 or so. I could have also left behind the not-once-used overquilt and saved another 1.5. If I take her out for 5 days this week, we can get away with carrying around 24.5 lbs or less. That's really getting somewhere for someone who started backpacking when 50 lbs was really common for that amount of time, and was supposedly no big deal. I'm really, finally getting it, and my body is thanking me. The miles are getting longer, faster and easier as well. Having met Wolf out on the AT last Spring and seeing his 10 lb pack was a big inspiration to me. People that mess with him just don't get it. Scrooge, 'em, ya know?

Side note: Rock, I've got a modified Ion, with a very different stand than yours, consistently boiling a pint of water with 1/2 oz of fuel these days. I put some fine steel wool down in the stove, and it slowed and extended the burn a huge amount. 1/2 oz of HEET burns for around 15 minutes!

[Nightwalker]

Wolf- I would love to see your gear list, and I'm sure others would as well. I can see why you would not want to share it though. But if it helps even one hiker cut weight would it be worth all the flames?

Why not put it in the Straight Forward section and then not even worry about the flames.

Wolf, less people are against you than you think. Just remember: the stupidest wheel makes the loudest noise, or something like that!

[Nightwalker]

Since you say this is not the case, then the only conclusion I can come to it that you're not posting a gear list because you don't want to be made fun of. To me, that is very childish.

I don't think so. A lot of folks here really give him a bad time, and wanting to avoid conflict is the opposite of childish, IMO.

[ed bell]

I don't think so.You are being too kind Nightwalker. Scared of being made fun of? I seriously doubt it.:sun

[Nightwalker]

You are being too kind Nightwalker. Scared of being made fun of? I seriously doubt it.:sun

I'm not afraid of being made fun of, but I don't enjoy it much, either. I also let it turn me into someone that I don't like being. Then again, I'm the one that allows that, so I can't blame anyone else.

[Egads]

NW,

So why did Wolf - 23000 start the thread if he has a fear of being flamed for going SUL? The best way to avoid criticism is to lurk in the background and HYOH. He started it, so he should finish it. Don't be a wimp, post the gear list.

Egads

[Heater]

NW,

So why did Wolf - 23000 start the thread if he has a fear of being flamed for going SUL? The best way to avoid criticism is to lurk in the background and HYOH. He started it, so he should finish it. Don't be a wimp, post the gear list.

Egads

He won't post it. He has done this time and time again. (bragged about his lightweightitude and refused a gear list when asked.) Whatever makes him feel good, I guess. :rolleyes:

[CoyoteWhips]

hey I had two other ideas for a smaller load:
2) visit restuarants/stores for meals ( Not for you Wolf as you specify no town visits) this could work for certain trails or sections with easy access, say for example SNP on the AT there are restuarants and/or campstores with food every 25 miles almost right on the trail.

I can imagine trails with regularly spaced vending machines with bottled water and food.

Somehow seems terribly, terribly wrong, though.

"We've got just a couple of miles to the Van de Camp shelter..."

[CoyoteWhips]

He won't post it. He has done this time and time again. (bragged about his lightweightitude and refused a gear list when asked.) Whatever makes him feel good, I guess. :rolleyes:

Unless he's a graduate of Hogwart's, there no reason to believe his list has anything you haven't seen on other superultralight collections. After all this fuss, you have to think posting it would be a bit anticlimactic.

[JAK]

I can imagine trails with regularly spaced vending machines with bottled water and food.

Somehow seems terribly, terribly wrong, though.

"We've got just a couple of miles to the Van de Camp shelter..."I would agree. Doesn't seem right. Mind you, I could see it on something like the old pilgrimages in Europe, like that one in Spain maybe, passing through small towns regularly and having a meal at a cafe and perhaps taking just enough wine and cheese to get you over the hill or along the road to the next town would be rather qauint, especially back in the days of dirt and cobblestone when even commerce seemed to be on a more human scale. I haven't done such a pilgrimage in Europe. Perhaps I should before they are all 7/11's and suburbs and superhighways, if they aren't already.

I think if I did a thru-hike, whether it was the AT or the PCT or something in Europe or beyond, ideally I would like to plan my resupply to hit the more quaint and human scale resupply points, whether it was a day or a week or a fortnight, and avoid the super highways and super eights and super eights. In other words I wouldn't optimize so much for time and distance so much as for quaintness and tranquility. Of course you never really know in advance what's around the next bend, that's the thing, and you can sometimes find quaintness and tranquility in the most un-natural places. I remember escaping off the streets of Manila into a McDonald's once. I can't imagine doing such a thing if I hadn't.

[Jimmers]

He won't post it. He has done this time and time again. (bragged about his lightweightitude and refused a gear list when asked.) Whatever makes him feel good, I guess. :rolleyes:

I've actually seen Wolf's pack, and it's every bit as light as he says. Blister has a photo from her CDT hike in 2005 of one of her partner's food bags sitting next to Wolf's pack. The food bag is probably 20% larger.:eek: Anyone who saw her presentation at the Long Trail Festival can back that up.

As far as bragging, I don't honestly see Wolf as the bragging type. Just get used to disappointment about not seeing the gear list.

[Roland]

While the debate about wolf posting his gear list goes on, he is on the JMT enjoying his adventure.

Many talk. Some walk.

[Lone Wolf]

Some walk.

some walk foolishly and barely cheat disaster

[Heater]

I've actually seen Wolf's pack, and it's every bit as light as he says. Blister has a photo from her CDT hike in 2005 of one of her partner's food bags sitting next to Wolf's pack.

No doubt.


The food bag is probably 20% larger.:eek: Anyone who saw her presentation at the Long Trail Festival can back that up.As far as bragging, I don't honestly see Wolf as the bragging type.

I remember a thread or two.

[/quote]Just get used to disappointment about not seeing the gear list.[/quote]

I've never asked him to list it. Don't care. :cool:

[JAK]

While the debate about wolf posting his gear list goes on, he is on the JMT enjoying his adventure.

Many talk. Some walk.Precisely.

[JAK]

I would be interested in learning more from him though. Like how much food he eats and when he eats it, how he conserves his energy when he needs to, how he picks his camp sites, that sort of thing. Sounds like he has a lot of miles under his belt, and thinks for himself rather than expecting others to think for him. All this talk about flirting with disaster is nonsense. 95% of the crap they sell in stores, or the toothbrushes and stuff that people file down when they could simply leave them home, that stuff doesn't make you any safer. It's mostly all metal and plastic anyway. Mostly what we need out there is food, insulation, knowledge, intelligence, and experience, and maybe one thin layer of plastic. Sure 3 extra pounds wouldn't slow him down any, but maybe he is wearing that as clothing. I am yet to come across a deer in the woods starving and shivering for want of a toothbrush.

[Lone Wolf]

All this talk about flirting with disaster is nonsense.

oh really? some years back i dropped him off at the north end of the Long Trail in January. he almost froze to death.

[JAK]

More cheap rhetoric for all I know.

[JAK]

Why don't we talk about something more useful than pack weight.
Why don't we talk about clothing, without mentioning brand names.

[Lone Wolf]

More cheap rhetoric for all I know.

you don't seem to know much

[JAK]

I don't know who you are, or what you know. I know what I know. If we are worried about this guy freezing, why are we so concerned about his pack weight? We should be talking about skin out weight, and how much of it needs to be food and insulation. We should talk about climate and topography where he will actually be hiking, and methods. That would be useful information.

[JAK]

I don't give a damn how much his tootbrush weighs.

[Jimmers]

More cheap rhetoric for all I know.

No, that actually happened. Wolf likes to push things to the limit a bit more than I would care to.

[JAK]

OK. Can we talk about skin-out weight now?

[Lone Wolf]

what is skin out weight

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Skin out weight includes the weight of your beard, hat (with grim) and fur :D

[JAK]

LOL.
Not that I'm interested in limiting skin-out weight. I am more interesting in knowing what a good weight would be for something like the JMT in August in something like the following categories.

For a 6' male with say 150# lean body mass.

0. Body fat (assuming a little extra might help)
1. Total weight of Clothing insulation (and body hair)
2. Total weight of Clothing shell
3. Total weight of Sleeping insulation
4. Total weight of Sleeping shell material
5. Total weight of Ground Pad insulation
6. Total weight of Shelter shell material
7. Total weight of Food
8. Total weigght of Rest of Gear

For myself, not the JMT, but say the Fundy Footpath in October
I might go with something like this:
0. Body fat = 70# (ouch)
1. Clothing insulation = 5# (includes socks)
2. Clothing shell material = 3# (includes shoes)
3. Sleeping insulation = 2#
4. Sleeping shell material = 2#
5. Ground Pad = 0.5#
6. Shelter shell = 0.5#
7. Food = 1.5# per day = 6#
8. Rest of Gear = 1#
TOTAL SKIN OUT = 20#
Excess Body Fat = 50#

[JAK]

Speaking of body fat, not that I don't carry it amazingly well, but how many people have found they need to beef of their insulation once they've gotten their weight down to something more, lets say, sleek?

Let's say I was 170#, with 20# fat, would I still need the same clothing as at 220#?
What if I got down to 165#?

[Jimmers]

Speaking of body fat, not that I don't carry it amazingly well, but how many people have found they need to beef of their insulation once they've gotten their weight down to something more, lets say, sleek?

Let's say I was 170#, with 20# fat, would I still need the same clothing as at 220#?
What if I got down to 165#?

I've actually found the opposite to be true. I'm 178 lbs and 6' tall, which is about 25 lbs heavier than when I started backpacking. I used to sleep like a furnace when I was thinner. Now I actually need more insulation to stay warm.

Only thing I can figure is my metabolism has slowed down. Makes no sense otherwise.:D

[JAK]

I am like a furnace also. I think it has to do with all the sailing I did in cold water when I was younger, in the days before wet suits and dry suits. Anyhow, sometimes I do find myself cold despite my weight, so I do need something to get the fire going. Surprisingly my VO2Max and stuff are still great when I am in shape, other than the weight. It takes longer to lose the weight than it does to get the lactic threshold were it should be. I think you are right that keeping active is key. In your 30s the metabolism can slow down and the weight can creep on gradually, glacier like. What keeps you thin probably does keep you warm, so keep at it. I'll see if I can hike my way back down to something similar.

[tanpuma]

Skin out weight includes the weight of your beard, hat (with grim) and fur :D
Oh, thank you dino I had no idea I have to include my beard ( ultralight model) AND my fur. How do I get it on the scale? Shave it off into a bag?:eek:
But its part of my inslulation sleep system, won't I freeze until it grows back:-??

[cowboybsw]

The simple answer to the original post is yes, it is backpacking. It would be nice to see this all inclusive gear list which I don't believe can actually be produced. I don't doubt he can do the trail with a 1lb pack. I am just saying it will not include all the "backpacking" items like a sleeping pad, stove, etc. He may have a space blanket, count on bush fires for cooking(if he cooks), and gathers leaves or branches for a sleeping pad. That however is not backpacking, that is a survival expidition. So I think the answer to the question actually kind of depends on whether this one pound gear list actually exists. In that case I say if he has a magical one pound gear list that includes all the necessary items to be self sufficeint and not reliant on nature then yes it is backpacking and if not then it is survival.

[JAK]

Why not just call it trekking, or tramping, or trudging, or hiking, either way?

[cowboybsw]

Yeah, I know what you mean but I think the idea of the thread is to catagorize/define it based on the facts. To me backpacking is carrying all gear/food/shelter/fuel/etc needed to be self sufficeint, in a pack on ones back, with the intention of traveling from one place to another over a duration of one or more nights. Add to that that I don't have a personal knowledge of a definition for tramping, treking, etc, that is why I would not catagorize it as one of those. If they have the same inplied meaning then yeah it is all of those things too, but that was not the question.

[Outlaw]

To me backpacking is carrying all gear/food/shelter/fuel/etc needed to be self sufficeint, in a pack on ones back, with the intention of traveling from one place to another over a duration of one or more nights.

YOUR definition of being "self sufficient" seems to require one to carry a store bought sleeping pad rather than create one from the resources at hand (e.g. leaves, boughs) or to carry a store bought stove rather than cook one's food over an open fire. However, as you can see, I do not agree with your definition as to what constitutes being self sufficient.

Is using a store bought stove necessarily better than using a homemade Supercat stove or pepsi can stove? If not, than is using a Supercat stove necessarily better than using an open fire? Each "system" can cook your food and boil water, so why does one need to carry the store bought versions in a pack on the back? I submit that Wolf is just hiking his own hike and not worrying about labels or meeting someone's definition of what backpacking is or is not... and I applaud him for it. IMHO Wolf's wilderness skills are worth more than any pack filled with store bought equipment in my book.

BTW, according to Merriam-Webster (on-line) dictionary, backpacking is defined as, " to carry (food or equipment) on the back especially in hiking: to hike with a backpack." Note that it does not say one must carry specific pieces of equipment, merely equipment in general and actually doesn't require one to even carry equipment at all so long as they are carrying food. The second definition doesn't even say you need to carry so much as a tissue in the backpack, merely wearing a backpack while hiking is sufficient to meet the definition.

[Jimmers]

Yeah, I know what you mean but I think the idea of the thread is to catagorize/define it based on the facts. To me backpacking is carrying all gear/food/shelter/fuel/etc needed to be self sufficeint, in a pack on ones back, with the intention of traveling from one place to another over a duration of one or more nights.......

I may be nitpicking this, but if you can get away with carrying a 1lb load and you feel that it contains everything you personally need to be self sufficient, then it's still backpacking. (at least according to the above def.) Granted, it resembles only vaguely what most of us here would think of when we hear the word backpacking. But when I think about what I thought I needed 15 years ago compared to what I know I know I need now there's a shocking difference in weight and quantity of stuff.

If I wanted to do a no frills, spartan backpacking trip I think I could shave everything down to about 8 lbs, excluding food. And I'd be just fine for a weekend with that. I don't know if I could stand it for more than a week. I like having my books and bulky hot cocoa mug and all the other stuff that pushes my normal pack weight up to 24 lbs. Just like Wolf likes pushing himself to the limits of what he can do. It may lie on the outer fringes of backpacking, but I think it's still backpacking.

My.02

[JAK]

I'm more inclined to reduce the number of items rather than the weight, but it's not so much to see if I can do it, so much as to keep things simple and more focused on the where I am rather than the what I'm carrying. I'm more worried about mental clutter than weight on my feet, though I try to reduce that also, within reason. I'm not saying people can't carry a bunch of stuff and a lot of weight and still remain focused on the outdoors either. I'm just saying what works for me. Also, I don't think qualifying for the backpacking term is neccessarily a good think. Personally I think the term is pejorative, but that's just me. I generally using the term hiking in summer, and trudging or skiing in winter. I also like the terms trekking and tramping like they often use in some other countries, not that they do it any better neccessarily. Well actually I do hold the Kiwi's in pretty high esteem. Grass in greener and all that.

[Heater]

Will you be using trekking poles? :confused:

[Heater]

What kind of shelters do you have? :confused:

[JAK]

I'm more interested in what's outside of his pack, and how he does stuff.
Like what sort of layers he wears, and how he chooses camping sites.
Also how he might combine certain things like clothes/pack/shelter.

[cowboybsw]

YOUR definition of being "self sufficient" seems to require one to carry a store bought sleeping pad rather than create one from the resources at hand (e.g. leaves, boughs) or to carry a store bought stove rather than cook one's food over an open fire. However, as you can see, I do not agree with your definition as to what constitutes being self sufficient.

Is using a store bought stove necessarily better than using a homemade Supercat stove or pepsi can stove? If not, than is using a Supercat stove necessarily better than using an open fire? Each "system" can cook your food and boil water, so why does one need to carry the store bought versions in a pack on the back? I submit that Wolf is just hiking his own hike and not worrying about labels or meeting someone's definition of what backpacking is or is not... and I applaud him for it. IMHO Wolf's wilderness skills are worth more than any pack filled with store bought equipment in my book.

BTW, according to Merriam-Webster (on-line) dictionary, backpacking is defined as, " to carry (food or equipment) on the back especially in hiking: to hike with a backpack." Note that it does not say one must carry specific pieces of equipment, merely equipment in general and actually doesn't require one to even carry equipment at all so long as they are carrying food. The second definition doesn't even say you need to carry so much as a tissue in the backpack, merely wearing a backpack while hiking is sufficient to meet the definition.

I never said he had to carry store bought stuff, nor did I reference Webster. That is not the point of the post. If he wanted Webster's opinion he could have looked it up, but he didn't, he wanted ours, so I gave him mine in a competent, thread related manner. I classify backpacking as being self sufficeint and not living off the land and again that means carrying a sleeping pad from home(whether homemade from foam peanuts or store bought, lol), stove(homemade alcohol is great), a shelter(garbage bag tarp, super light), etc. The stuff doesn't have to be store bought but in my opinion it is not "backpacking" if you rely on the wilderness to provide for you it is "survival".

[russb]

At some point some of nature must be used. Must one carry ALL their water for it to be considered backpacking? If one uses sticks instead of carrying tent stakes does it cease to be backpacking? So no leaves on the ground for a sleeping pad, what about the dirt? I suppose anything on the ground provides insulation of some sort. Even if one was to eliminate the ground altogether and use a hammock, does the use of the trees make it cease to be backpacking? Of course I am being difficult here, but my point is all backpacking is carrying what you need to survive and using any nature doesn't make the endeavor cease to be backpacking. There is a continuum of necessity and comfort and this differs from person to person. JMHO

[Roland]

Some of you really need to take a hike! :D

[russb]

Some of you really need to take a hike! :D

+1 -------------------------

[Mags]

I backpack with a credit card only. With my super-duper-ultra-running abilities (TM) I can go from road to road and stay in a hotel every night and eat a yummy meal.

Naturally, I go with the really lightweight credit cards that are small enough to fit on a key ring.

I do take a lucky rabbits foot which DOES add some weight.

If you wish to know more about patented super-duper-ultra-running abilities (TM) system, I will be doing a seminar.

Thanks for your support.

[Outlaw]

I never said he had to carry store bought stuff, nor did I reference Webster. That is not the point of the post. If he wanted Webster's opinion he could have looked it up, but he didn't, he wanted ours, so I gave him mine in a competent, thread related manner. I classify backpacking as being self sufficeint and not living off the land and again that means carrying a sleeping pad from home(whether homemade from foam peanuts or store bought, lol), stove(homemade alcohol is great), a shelter(garbage bag tarp, super light), etc. The stuff doesn't have to be store bought but in my opinion it is not "backpacking" if you rely on the wilderness to provide for you it is "survival".

I needed the reference point, hence why I sought out Websters for a more universally accepted definition. You don't agree with Mr. Webster's definition, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. As the saying goes, HYOH.

However, many here don't like or use hiking poles but do use either found branches or cut saplings to use for hiking sticks. They also don't carry all the water they need on a trip either, choosing to utilize what they find along the trail. When I used a tent, I would raked a pile of leaves under the footprint to buffer rocks and roots that would interupt my sleep, but I didn't carry the leaves from home. I swim in rivers, lakes, and ponds, but don't bring an inflatable swimming pool with me. When I sit to eat a meal, I sit on a rock or on a log. I don't bring a chair with me. Yet, I still consider myself a backpacker even though I choose to take full advantage of what benefits nature has provided.

So, I guess my definition of backpacking differs from yours... so be it, friend. :cool:

[Wolf - 23000]

First of all thank you to those of you who stayed on topic. With the new gear out there, what was once known as backpacking is quickly changing.

I was able to complete the JMT in 10 days – a little different than I had planned. Due to a problem obtaining permits and transportation I hiked from Red Meadows to Mount Whitney and then Red Meadows to Happy Isles to complete the JMT. I met some great hikers doing their first long distance backpacking trip. I wish them all well. After finishing my trip, I spent an extra 2 days just goofing off hiking else where in total, I hiked about 250 miles. For those of you that care, I left Red Meadows heading for Mount Whitney with 14 pounds 6 oz total pack weight – (7 days of food). And under 5 pounds heading from Red Meadows to Happy Isles making a stop for supplies at Tuolumne Meadows. My gear leaving Red Meadows weight was 18 oz not including what I was wearing on my back and the camera that I was carrying in my hand (I forgot to hand it over when I weight everything at the Post Office). During cold morning, while wearing my cold weather gear, my pack was less than one pound.

It rained on me 5 days out of 12 days hiking for a couple hours and haled on me once while climbing Mt Whitney. It rained on me more during this 210-mile trip than any single PCT thru-hike of CA. All well. What made my trip really special was just being out there with awesome views everywhere and the hikers I met. It’s fun seeing hikers just starting off, learning everything for the first time, getting use to trail life. It reminds me of my days just starting off as a thru-hikers. I’ve done many thru-hikes or long distance trips but I still look back at my first one as one of my best.

Carrying food was the biggest problem and has remains my biggest problem for years. Hiking this trip I wasn’t quite as light as I had planned but I know where to focus my attention - carrying food without it sitting in my pack like a block of rocks. Currently I have not found anything on the market that is design for ultra-light backpacking and carrying food comfortable. I may have to try my hands at designing my own type pack.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

I have heard you can go a few days without food.. You could go like the Man vs Wild. Just his canteen, bowie knife and flint...

I'm a big guy and need to eat. I don't like being hungry. I'll carry the food.

Wolf

[JAK]

Sounds like it was a great trip. 10 days would be great. How long does it take you to get in the groove, or zone, if you know what I mean? Also I would be keen on knowing what you wear for clothing, and insulation from the ground, and if you do anything out of the ordinary with respect to combining clothing/sleeping gear or shelter/pack. I'm not into brand names, but I'ld be interested in your thoughts on finding the right mix of wool/synthetics/down/nylon etc and making it work for you. Cheers.

[Mags]

I was able to complete the JMT in 10 days – a little different than I had planned.

Thanks for the trip report. I honestly think the JMT is, mile for mile, the most sceninc LD hiking trail in the country.



. It’s fun seeing hikers just starting off, learning everything for the first time, getting use to trail life. It reminds me of my days just starting off as a thru-hikers. I’ve done many thru-hikes or long distance trips but I still look back at my first one as one of my best.


Ain't that the truth. The first hike is always the most memorable. You are full of enthusiasm, everything is new, everything is a learning experience.

I've always compared a first thru-hike to a first serious relationship. You
may move on and have other experiences, but the first experience is what is always among the deepest and most passionate memories you will have.

Again, thanks for sharing.

[Wolf - 23000]

sounds like bull**** to me. post your gearlist.

Damush,

I agree there is bull**** but I think your mistaken where it lies. There nothing wrong with someone not wanting to post what they carry. Most hikers on this website don’t. A gear list could help some hikers who might other wise not know what to carry but it doesn’t give them the knowledge to use it. If someone who claims to have the experience of 2 AT thru-hikes yet lacks the knowledge on what to carry then why would you think someone who has never hiked before would have it? That is were the BS lies.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

Wolf-23000,
Hell with your gear list...I want to take you camping with the SAR guys! LOL

geek


When??? I'm always looking for a partner!

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

oh really? some years back i dropped him off at the north end of the Long Trail in January. he almost froze to death.

L. Wolf,

As you know, I got caught in a bad storm over 12 years ago. Is there anyone out there who has spent a lot of time in the wilderness that can honestly say they have never been in a bad storm? What got me through it was both skill and heart that a lot of hikers don't have.

You can continue to do the same hikes over and over again with little dough your going to make it but not everyone can do that. The hike I just did had little danger, it was well with-in my skill level. I wanted to see where I stood.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

Sounds like it was a great trip. 10 days would be great. How long does it take you to get in the groove, or zone, if you know what I mean? Also I would be keen on knowing what you wear for clothing, and insulation from the ground, and if you do anything out of the ordinary with respect to combining clothing/sleeping gear or shelter/pack. I'm not into brand names, but I'ld be interested in your thoughts on finding the right mix of wool/synthetics/down/nylon etc and making it work for you. Cheers.

It normal takes me a couple of days to get into the groove of hiking but this trip I was more than ready. I started off leaving really tired after driving from KY to CA, after getting my permit and everything I jumped right on the trail. To answer your other question regarding my clothing, I personal don’t like wool. I just don’t like the feel of it, I like synthetics instead but that just my personal preference. Insulation on the ground I lose a lot of body heat but it’s not to bad – you just have to watch wear you camp a little more or insulate the ground wear your sleeping. You can use almost anything as a layer from you and the ground. Down is nice to have but it only works during dry conductions, but it really depends on the rest of your gear. If for example you have a skippy shelter system them using down would not be a good choice other wise you risk getting into trouble.

Wolf

[ScottP]

How much does the stuff you wear and keep in your pockets weigh?

Do you find that by going light on insulation at night, you end up burning more calories to stay warm, and have to carry more food weight to compensate?

Your goal seems to be to hike with as little possible. Do you think you could make more miles/day with a little more gear?

[Dirtygaiters]

It normal takes me a couple of days to get into the groove of hiking but this trip I was more than ready. I started off leaving really tired after driving from KY to CA, after getting my permit and everything I jumped right on the trail. To answer your other question regarding my clothing, I personal don’t like wool. I just don’t like the feel of it, I like synthetics instead but that just my personal preference. Insulation on the ground I lose a lot of body heat but it’s not to bad – you just have to watch wear you camp a little more or insulate the ground wear your sleeping. You can use almost anything as a layer from you and the ground. Down is nice to have but it only works during dry conductions, but it really depends on the rest of your gear. If for example you have a skippy shelter system them using down would not be a good choice other wise you risk getting into trouble.

Wolf

That's very interesting. I had always thought that down was the way to go. Posts like this illustrate exactly why so many of us are interested in your gear list, Wolf. I'm guessing from what you're saying that you're using a synthetic-fill sleeping bag, but what sort of shelter are you using?

I get what you mean when you say that posting a gear list itself isn't going to going to benefit people who don't have the skills to effectively use it, but remember, despite the moderate number of hiking newbies who post on whiteblaze, most of us here are experienced backpackers, and it should be assumed in the Ultra Light Hikers Forum (if you want to be polite), that most of the people who post in here are experienced ultra light hikers. Look, all I'm saying is this: don't walk into a room of doctors claiming that you can treat Leukemia in half the speed as them and then deny them the information on how to do it because (you say that) they are the uninitiated and are not worthy to have access to the information. It's rude anywhere, but especially on the internet. Freedom of information is the single moral value that holds people on the internet here together. Assuming that we're all uninitiated and unworthy to behold your information isn't going to make you any friends on the internet.

Though, it's true that a lot of us are simply interested in the specs (brand, weight, materials) of your individual pieces of gear so we can emulate your choices and try them out (BTW- how does one gain the experience necessary to behold your gear list if we don't even know what it includes to get experience with such gear on our own? That seems like circular reasoning to me). For instance, I'd love to know what sort of extremely light piece of gear you used as rain and hail protection. I'm guessing a cuben fiber poncho tarp, but if it's something different, then what? Clothing is of great interest to a lot of us, and you say you don't use wool, and you don't like down..so how do you stay warm and keep your pack weight so low? Do you have full length zips on your clothing and you simply wear it the entire time hiking, sleeping, etc?

You know, it is possible to post your gear list without atually posting it (if you're morally opposed to posting it or something). Instead of saying that your quilt or sleeping bag is brand X, model Y, you could say it weights this many ounces, includes these materials, is this wide, and so forth.

[Dirtygaiters]

Also, did you know that the Ultra Light Hikers Forum is part of the GEAR FORUMS subset? Just curious. It seems that you are unaware of this.

[ScottP]

"experienced backpackers"

'Experienced' is relative. When talking to normal people, I consider myself an experienced backpacker. When talking to someone like wolf, I'm not.

It takes a lot to kill you, but only if you're tough and you know what you're doing. Wolf doesn't want someone's injury, rescue, or possibly death on his hands--a damn good decision if you ask me.

"What are "hypothermia" temperatures
Below freezing
40 degrees - Ex. Shenandoahs, wind and rain
60 degrees - Ex. Rayanna and hurricane
Any temperature less than 98.6 degrees can be linked to hypothermia (ex. hypothermia in the elderly in cold houses) or peripheral circulation problems such as trench foot and frostbite."(from princeton's website)

If one is used to discomfort and knows how to take care of himself, it really doesn't take much gear.

I've hiked with 1 lb of gear in the summer and 5lbs from skin out on the winter/spring fringe (mid-march on the AT in the south), but I just think it's more efficient (from an 'ability to make miles' perspective) to carry more. Obviously, if you're hiking with 1 lb of gear, hiking with as little as possible is your goal

[Dirtygaiters]

Scott, with all due respect, we're not talking about simply hiking through the rolling hills of the Ozarks in summertime with one pound of gear. It's an extended hike above 8,000 feet through the mountainous terrain of the Sierras.


"experienced backpackers"
Wolf doesn't want someone's injury, rescue, or possibly death on his hands--a damn good decision if you ask me.


1. He started out the tread saying that the reason he didn't want to post a gear list was that he didn't want posters ripping on him. Now he's changed his story about why he's not sharing his gear list saying that it's pointless to only share a gear list in a gear forum. I disagree and contend that it's possible to share some philosophy about a gear list at the same time as sharing particulars.

2. We are all gifted with the ability to make up our own minds and make our own decisions. I can't blame someone else for a decision I made about something and I wouldn't let someone else blame me for a decision they made, even if it was based on something I said. It makes no sense. If you're under the delusion that Wolf thinks he's keeping other hikers safe by denying them information, then I don't think you're giving Wolf's intelligence the benefit of the doubt. Information never killed anyone. Not once. Not ever.

[ScottP]

The 'year thru-hiked' is provided so that we can understand where posters are coming from. The muir trail is part of the PCT, so I know exactally what's there.

If you've hiked enough you'll know exactally what you need to do to carry a 1 lb pack. It's then just a matter of the way you want to hike.

[Appalachian Tater]

Hell, I went hiking five, maybe six miles yesterday and only took my wallet, apartment key, and a pack of Chiclets. I was wearing jeans, too. Of course, I knew if the weather turned ugly, I could hop on the subway.

[Colter]

My question is now with equipment made weighting next to nothing is it possible to travel with less then a single pound of gear?
Wolf

It is possible to travel with no gear at all. Hugh Glass went on a six-week 200 mile bushwhack, solo, with a broken leg, after being mauled by a grizzly. But my guess is he didn't volunteer to do it again.

[whitefoot_hp]

Scott, with all due respect, we're not talking about simply hiking through the rolling hills of the Ozarks in summertime with one pound of gear. It's an extended hike above 8,000 feet through the mountainous terrain of the Sierras.



1. He started out the tread saying that the reason he didn't want to post a gear list was that he didn't want posters ripping on him. Now he's changed his story about why he's not sharing his gear list saying that it's pointless to only share a gear list in a gear forum. I disagree and contend that it's possible to share ....

you are almost trying to say that he is obligated to post his list... i see everything about this forum as voluntary... this is not nazi germany...

[Mags]

you are almost trying to say that he is obligated to post his list... i see everything about this forum as voluntary... this is not nazi germany...


This thread has official been Godwin'd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law). :O

[the goat]

This thread has official been Godwin'd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law). :O

hilarious!

i bet almost every thread here w/ over 1000 posts has been godwin'd.:D (over 100 posts for the ones in the politics forum)

[whitefoot_hp]

This thread has official been Godwin'd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law). :O
lol. i had never heard of that. However, i think my statement stands outside of Godwin's law, as my reference was appropriate. That guy is not letting it go that wolf wont post his gear list. hitler had a habit of not letting things go. :-?

[Mags]

That guy is not letting it go that wolf wont post his gear list. hitler had a habit of not letting things go. :-?

A double Godwin! :D

[whitefoot_hp]

you are being very NAZI with this GODWIN stuff!!! :)

[Mags]

you are being very NAZI with this GODWIN stuff!!! :)


Well, to be serious, the whole point of the Godwin law is to say that when Nazi, Hitler et al is brought into a discussion (that does not concern WW2 and/or the holocaust or related items), it is time to give the thread a rest.

Nothing productive will further come out of the discussion.


Capish?

[whitefoot_hp]

yeah, i understand the argument. But, it assumes, that outside any discussion of WW2 or the Holocuast, or related topics, there is no appropriate circumstance in which a reference to Hitler is appropriate.

Now, for the sake of argument, the asssumption shall be proven faulty.

Say someone is raving and ranting about how black people in america are dragging the rest of the country down and conspiring against its global success, i would be very justified in comparing his ideology to Hitler's regarding jews.

So, its not too much of a stretch than when someone types long posts claiming that wolf has an obligation to post his gear list, and keeps appealing to his needs, or the forum title, and other authorities, or percieved authorities, that i label him authoritarian in nature. and nothing symbolizes authoritarianism any better than nazi germany.

[the goat]

yeah, i understand the argument. But, it assumes, that outside any discussion of WW2 or the Holocuast, or related topics, there is no appropriate circumstance in which a reference to Hitler is appropriate.

Now, for the sake of argument, the asssumption shall be proven faulty.

Say someone is raving and ranting about how black people in america are dragging the rest of the country down and conspiring against its global success, i would be very justified in comparing his ideology to Hitler's regarding jews.

So, its not too much of a stretch than when someone types long posts claiming that wolf has an obligation to post his gear list, and keeps appealing to his needs, or the forum title, and other authorities, or percieved authorities, that i label him authoritarian in nature. and nothing symbolizes authoritarianism any better than nazi germany.

um... dude.... you were comparing some people wanting to see another person's gear list to nazism.

not exactly an appropriate situation.:-?

[whitefoot_hp]

um... dude.... you were comparing some people wanting to see another person's gear list to nazism.

not exactly an appropriate situation.:-?
well first of all, it was a hyperbole, or an exxageration.

second, its not so much that he wanted to see his gear list, its his waspy insistence and lengthy posts that prompted the comparison.

[Mags]

its his waspy insistence and lengthy posts that prompted the comparison.


Will someone PLEASE think of Anglo-Saxon Protestants!!!!

[whitefoot_hp]

Will someone PLEASE think of Anglo-Saxon Protestants!!!!
thanks to hitler, they dont look so bad... :)

[hiker5]

Hasn't the convention been that the first person who makes the nazi/hitler comparison automaticly "loses" the discussion?

[Mags]

Hasn't the convention been that the first person who makes the nazi/hitler comparison automaticly "loses" the discussion?

Kind of.

It is more just a sign that the discussion is quickly (or should be quickly) coming to an end.

Of course, it often leads to another 20 posts on the Godwin law .... :D

[Lone Wolf]

Hasn't the convention been that the first person who makes the nazi/hitler comparison automaticly "loses" the discussion?

kinda like racist/jesse jackson

[saimyoji]

Well, unless, as in this case apparently, hitler or naziism is invoked for the sole purpose of using Goodwin's Law to sabotage the discussion, knowing that someone will call for the end of the discussion. In this case the offending nazi-invoker should be required to convince WD to give up his "frugal" ways and pay for all those "stealthed" movies, yogied popcorn and breadcrusts and unpaid road passages.

[Dirtygaiters]

you are almost trying to say that he is obligated to post his list... i see everything about this forum as voluntary... this is not nazi germany...


I didn't almost try to say anything about mandates or anything like that. What I did say and what I'm saying right now is that it's annoying to start a thread in a gear forum but refuse to reply to specific questions related to gear. There's no mandate or rule that says a person is forbidden from being annoying on the internet and if Wolf wants to annoy people who's going to stop him? That doesn't mean it's not annoying.

[Dirtygaiters]

well first of all, it was a hyperbole, or an exxageration.

second, its not so much that he wanted to see his gear list, its his waspy insistence and lengthy posts that prompted the comparison.

There's no need to call me a wasp, Whitefoot.

If you have a problem with a post longer than a couple sentences, nobody is mandating you to read it. You're free to navigate away from this site and go do your thing elsewhere on the internet.

If you want to fault me for trying to convince Wolf to post a gear list, that's your perogative. I'd appreciate not being compared to the most evil dictator in history, however. If you don't mind!

[Egads]

W-23000's a Troll. He set out making an outrageous claim, refused to discuss it, and sat back to watch the fireworks. He is probably LHAO at how the thread has meandered into bickering.

[Nightwalker]

There's no need to call me a wasp, Whitefoot.

If you have a problem with a post longer than a couple sentences, nobody is mandating you to read it. You're free to navigate away from this site and go do your thing elsewhere on the internet.

If you want to fault me for trying to convince Wolf to post a gear list, that's your perogative. I'd appreciate not being compared to the most evil dictator in history, however. If you don't mind!

All WASP means is White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Maybe it doesn't fit, but it's not like calling you a cyberhiker or something! :)

[Dirtygaiters]

Thank you Nightwalker. I am familiar with the term.

[Wolf - 23000]

W-23000's a Troll. He set out making an outrageous claim, refused to discuss it, and sat back to watch the fireworks. He is probably LHAO at how the thread has meandered into bickering.

Egads,

You should look in a mirror to see the real troll. I asked a simple question that is going to come up soon or later on what should we defind as backpacking. I did head the thread with 1 lb gear list. I post it asking a question. There is nothing outrageous about my claim. Here is a news flash. Hikers have been backing ultra-light for many years. If you backpack any distance you would know this.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

That's very interesting. I had always thought that down was the way to go. Posts like this illustrate exactly why so many of us are interested in your gear list, Wolf. I'm guessing from what you're saying that you're using a synthetic-fill sleeping bag, but what sort of shelter are you using?

I get what you mean when you say that posting a gear list itself isn't going to going to benefit people who don't have the skills to effectively use it, but remember, despite the moderate number of hiking newbies who post on whiteblaze, most of us here are experienced backpackers, and it should be assumed in the Ultra Light Hikers Forum (if you want to be polite), that most of the people who post in here are experienced ultra light hikers. Look, all I'm saying is this: don't walk into a room of doctors claiming that you can treat Leukemia in half the speed as them and then deny them the information on how to do it because (you say that) they are the uninitiated and are not worthy to have access to the information. It's rude anywhere, but especially on the internet. Freedom of information is the single moral value that holds people on the internet here together. Assuming that we're all uninitiated and unworthy to behold your information isn't going to make you any friends on the internet.


Dirtygaiters,

Before you start a reply to one of my post, please read what the post says and not what you want it to say. I never put out this is a 1 lb gear list as a header. I’m not that much of a gear head any more and to be honest I know what to carry already. I don’t need anyone feed back on what I should or should not carry. I carry what I want and let others carry what they want. It is reflect in their experiences in their experience. As you said more whiteblazers here have experience so there really is not a need for any such list.

As for my comment about down, I never said I don’t use down. I only pointed out that if one is to use down, then one needs to descent shelter system and not rely on a skimpy tarp to keep them dry in a rain storm or able to stay in shelters every night.

Wolf

[Appalachian Tater]

Wolf-2300, your question was meant to provoke discussion but it was certainly not trolling, especially given that it is in the ultralight forum. It is a valid question.

Without reading pages 2, 3, and 4 of the thread, I can only imagine how it turned into a name-calling argument with vicious terms such as "WASP" being tossed about callously. And your attack on down is absolutely unbelievable!

[modiyooch]

Wolf23000, there is an interesting book that I read 30 years ago before my first hike. Basically, it is about a man that stripped down to nothing and walked into the woods in Maine in fall weather, to test his survival skills. The first night it was raining and he had to constantly run back and forth to keep warm. The book goes on to show how he mastered the skills of clothing, shelter, food, and even art work. He mastered the physical, but it was the mental and need for socialization that brought him back out. I think the copyright date was 1920. True story.

[Wolf - 23000]

Wolf23000, there is an interesting book that I read 30 years ago before my first hike. Basically, it is about a man that stripped down to nothing and walked into the woods in Maine in fall weather, to test his survival skills. The first night it was raining and he had to constantly run back and forth to keep warm. The book goes on to show how he mastered the skills of clothing, shelter, food, and even art work. He mastered the physical, but it was the mental and need for socialization that brought him back out. I think the copyright date was 1920. True story.

modiyooch,

That is interesting. I never really consider going ultra-light as a test of my wilderness skill but more a chance to get back to nature. The more equipment I carry, to me, takes me that much farther away from nature. The less equipment makes me think more about how animals live, survive, what do they look out for or do when the weather gets bad. No animals carry a sleeping bag, tent, stove and yet they survive day after day.

As for the social experience, as most of my hiking friends know, I normal hike alone on almost all of my trips. It not that I always like hiking alone, I just have a hard time finding people to go with me or hike the same pace. There are sometimes I wish I had a partner while others times I need that isolation to get away from it all. There are some hikes that I would not see anyone for days or weeks at a time (no one was on the trail) other times it was like a zoo – wall to wall people. Sometimes getting away from it all helps me to relax, figure things out, get back to the basic sort of speak. No matter how rough the hike gets physical, I always feel better afterwards.

Wolf

[modiyooch]

I researched this book. I read it in 1979. Maybe this was one of my inspirations to hike the trail.

Alone in the Wilderness
By Joseph Knowles


"NAKED HE PLUNGES INTO MAINE WOODS TO LIVE ALONE TWO MONTHS"

Headline story in the Boston Post on August 10, 1913.

---Another inspiration was WALK ACROSS AMERICA

[lvleph]

This thread reminds me why I stopped comming to WB. And this is my first day back.

[JAK]

But it was just starting to get interesting. :)

[bhc4985]

Well, I just read every post for 9 pages and have to say this thread has been amazing. When I finished page one, I was a little irritated that Wolf wouldnt post his gear list, it seemed immature to be concerned with flamers online. I mean, who cares what some dweeb who probably has never hiked more then 10 miles in a weekend thinks of your gear? Then the name calling and ridiculous accusations ensued for the next 8 pages, and I started to see his point. Its not that you care about what they say, its that some stupid shmuck like me is actually going to sit here and read every post because I actually thought someone might have something worthwhile to say. Luckily, a few did (especially you Sgt, as usual, you seem to have some idea of whats going on, and the list of gear you mentioned gave me some insight into what it means to go sub 1lb of gear). I still would really like to know what you hiked with Wolf, and if your willing to, PM me with your gear list. Promise I wont flame you or post it later. I have no intention of imitating it either. My pack is between 20-25 lbs total for a 5 day trip right now and Im pretty happy with it. If I shave any ounces it will only be by getting lighter gear and not by leaving anything out. Youve simply piqued my interest here, and I truly believe in learning from others experience as well as your own. Anyways, glad to hear everything worked out on your trip.

[lvleph]

I will say one thing. If one is using a sub 1lb pack on the JMT they are breaking park rules. Park rules state that one must have a bear canister, the last time I checked.

I am all for seeing how far one can push their limits. I was went sub 5, but decided to add a few things in, so that I could hammock. I think I am still sub 8 even with my underquilt.

[Captn]

Shelter and bag: 2 Emergency Blankets with straping tape pullouts (rig them lean too style, facing each other but about 4 ft apart, with the fire in the middle) ... toasty warm if you don't mind feeding the fire all night. 3 oz

mini Bic Lighter 1/2 oz

Fire Starters (a couple of esbits) 1 oz

Mini SAK - 1 oz

2 L platy - 1.2 oz

1 oz glass bottle with resublimated iodine crystals - 2 oz - unlimited use

Emergency poncho and ground cloth - 1 oz

Beer Can pot with a coat hanger wire bail and foil lid - .8 oz (cook over open fire)

Wendy's spoon

Warm Hat - 1 oz

TP, first aid, and basic toiletries - 2 oz

mini packpack - 3 oz.

photon light

This comes in right at 1 lb or so, but not very comfortable

[Dirtygaiters]

Well, I just read every post for 9 pages and have to say this thread has been amazing. When I finished page one, I was a little irritated that Wolf wouldnt post his gear list, it seemed immature to be concerned with flamers online. I mean, who cares what some dweeb who probably has never hiked more then 10 miles in a weekend thinks of your gear? Then the name calling and ridiculous accusations ensued for the next 8 pages, and I started to see his point. Its not that you care about what they say, its that some stupid shmuck like me is actually going to sit here and read every post because I actually thought someone might have something worthwhile to say. Luckily, a few did (especially you Sgt, as usual, you seem to have some idea of whats going on, and the list of gear you mentioned gave me some insight into what it means to go sub 1lb of gear). I still would really like to know what you hiked with Wolf, and if your willing to, PM me with your gear list. Promise I wont flame you or post it later. I have no intention of imitating it either. My pack is between 20-25 lbs total for a 5 day trip right now and Im pretty happy with it. If I shave any ounces it will only be by getting lighter gear and not by leaving anything out. Youve simply piqued my interest here, and I truly believe in learning from others experience as well as your own. Anyways, glad to hear everything worked out on your trip.

Won't work. Wolf will give you the same circular argument he gave me, that he can't be of any help to you because if you are able to hike with a sub 1 pound gear list, then you already know what it consists of. As you must know, from reading the 8 or so pages of babble previous, the reasons for this decision are numerous and profound.

[_terrapin_]

Won't work. Wolf will give you the same circular argument he gave me, that he can't be of any help to you because if you are able to hike with a sub 1 pound gear list, then you already know what it consists of. As you must know, from reading the 8 or so pages of babble previous, the reasons for this decision are numerous and profound.

ISTM, Wolf2300 is right about this. A gear list by itself means nothing. An ultralight or sub-ultralight gear list, by itself, means even less. The gear doesn't mean squat without the skill (and conditioning, etc.) to use it. In a sense, Wolf would be irresponsible to "publish" his list. I suspect he knows that, and I suspect that's part of his reluctance.

OTOH, one could argue that the original post is just as irresponsible, but I chalk it up to Wolf's bravado.

[Dirtygaiters]

Yeah...I'm still not seeing how freely exchanging ideas can be viewed as irresponsible under any circumstances, especially exchanging ideas about hiking gear, among other hikers, in a hiking gear forum. Give me one example of when knowledge has hurt someone, when the knowledge-giver was blamable for the damage.

[Appalachian Tater]

I will say one thing. If one is using a sub 1lb pack on the JMT they are breaking park rules. Park rules state that one must have a bear canister, the last time I checked.


You don't need a bear canister if you aren't carrying food. A true ultralite hiker lives off the land.

[_terrapin_]

Give me one example of when knowledge has hurt someone, when the knowledge-giver was blamable for the damage.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Leaving "blame" aside, I suspect anyone who's raised children can provide the examples you ask for. Kids and adolescents, in particular often do crazy things "half-cocked." Often it's stuff that they've seen their parents, siblings, or older peers doing.

Surely you recognize that Wolf's an "outlier" in terms of his gear and his hiking habits. Why are you so keen on seeing Wolf's list? Do you truly expect to learn from it, or do you expect to dissect and ridicule it?

[Nightwalker]

Why are you so keen on seeing Wolf's list? Do you truly expect to learn from it, or do you expect to dissect and ridicule it?

Do we get to vote on this? :)

[lvleph]

Yeah...I'm still not seeing how freely exchanging ideas can be viewed as irresponsible under any circumstances, especially exchanging ideas about hiking gear, among other hikers, in a hiking gear forum. Give me one example of when knowledge has hurt someone, when the knowledge-giver was blamable for the damage.

Adam and Eve, the serpent and God. lol

[modiyooch]

excuse my ignorance; but what is sub 1 lb? sub 5 lb? ...

[tripp]

One question: why does everybody even care so much about Wolf's gear list? Sub 1 lb or not, it doesn't matter to me if I see Wolf's list or not. I'm happy with what I got at about 20-25 lbs, and frankly could care less about what everybody carries. Sure, it's interesting to see what others carry but it's not a matter of life and death if I don't see their gear lists... Just my thought on this ridiculously long thread...

[Appalachian Tater]

excuse my ignorance; but what is sub 1 lb? sub 5 lb? ...

Below one pound, below five pounds.

[Appalachian Tater]

Knowledge causes suffering. Presumably if they see his list, they will duplicate it, go into the wilderness, and come to some painful injury or death.

[Lone Wolf]

Knowledge causes suffering. Presumably if they see his list, they will duplicate it, go into the wilderness, and come to some painful injury or death.

yeah like that kid in alaska. daewin candidates

[Outlaw]

I'm happy with what I got at about 20-25 lbs, and frankly could care less about what everybody carries.

Tripp, I find your avatar funny for someone carrying 20-25 lbs. I wonder if you tried going with a base weight of say 10 lbs. or less whether you could find a new light weight avatar to use. ;)

[lvleph]

excuse my ignorance; but what is sub 1 lb? sub 5 lb? ...
It has to do with someone base weight (weight of pack plus items in pack). Sub 5 lb is a base weight of less than 5 lbs.

[tripp]

Tripp, I find your avatar funny for someone carrying 20-25 lbs. I wonder if you tried going with a base weight of say 10 lbs. or less whether you could find a new light weight avatar to use. ;)
:-?... would be something to consider. I would have to utilize a cost/benefit analysis of weight lost from new avatar versus the trouble of going through the process to find and replace my old avatar with the newer, high tech lightweight one. If total oz. lost would equate to such an amount that I would believe it to be worth the inconvenience of replacing my avatar, i would consider it to be a worthwhile endeavor.

[Outlaw]

:-?... would be something to consider. I would have to utilize a cost/benefit analysis of weight lost from new avatar versus the trouble of going through the process to find and replace my old avatar with the newer, high tech lightweight one. If total oz. lost would equate to such an amount that I would believe it to be worth the inconvenience of replacing my avatar, i would consider it to be a worthwhile endeavor.

You've got to be an engineer! Got one in the family... he talks like you write. LOL. :p

[tripp]

You've got to be an engineer! Got one in the family... he talks like you write. LOL. :p
Actually, I'm working towards degrees in American History and Anthropology. Speaking of which, I better get back to class...:eek:

[Dirtygaiters]

One question: why does everybody even care so much about Wolf's gear list? Sub 1 lb or not, it doesn't matter to me if I see Wolf's list or not. I'm happy with what I got at about 20-25 lbs, and frankly could care less about what everybody carries. Sure, it's interesting to see what others carry but it's not a matter of life and death if I don't see their gear lists... Just my thought on this ridiculously long thread...


The same reason that when you tell a kid he can't have something, he starts wanting it. ;)

[Dirtygaiters]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Leaving "blame" aside, I suspect anyone who's raised children can provide the examples you ask for. Kids and adolescents, in particular often do crazy things "half-cocked." Often it's stuff that they've seen their parents, siblings, or older peers doing.

I notice this is not a specific expample, but remember blame is important to consider, otherwise, if Wolf can't be blamed for sharing his information, then his "reasoning" for not sharing falls flat on its face. Also, we're not kids here. People need to learn the difference between adults and children.



Surely you recognize that Wolf's an "outlier" in terms of his gear and his hiking habits. Why are you so keen on seeing Wolf's list? Do you truly expect to learn from it, or do you expect to dissect and ridicule it?

To be honest I no longer care wha Wolf has to tell us about his gear list because I don't believe he hikes with sub-1 lb of gear. I used to be so keen on seeing his gear list because he is an outlier in terms of his gear and hiking habits. Who doesn't want to learn from the innovators? Isn't that how innovative ideas are spread? As I've already made exhaustively clear, I am not looking to dissect or ridicule his gear list in any way.

[_terrapin_]

To be honest I no longer care wha Wolf has to tell us about his gear list because I don't believe he hikes with sub-1 lb of gear.

So you think Wolf23K is just trolling, then?

[Dirtygaiters]

No, but if you look at his posts in this thread, he started saying that he would be cutting two pounds off his normal pack weight to get to this sub-1 lb pack weight, no big deal, then many pages later, he said that his actual pack weight for the trip was some 18 ounces. He also said that he was cutting so much weight for this trip because he wanted to push himself or something. The sub-1 lb was a hypothetical gear list, one with which even Wolf apparently wasn't willing to hike the JMT.

[Nightwalker]

To be honest I no longer care what Wolf has to tell us about his gear list because I don't believe he hikes with sub-1 lb of gear.

I believe that he already said that he didn't make it to that low of a weight. I understood his question from the first as more of a "what if," but I could have been mistaken.

[Wolf - 23000]

No, but if you look at his posts in this thread, he started saying that he would be cutting two pounds off his normal pack weight to get to this sub-1 lb pack weight, no big deal, then many pages later, he said that his actual pack weight for the trip was some 18 ounces. He also said that he was cutting so much weight for this trip because he wanted to push himself or something. The sub-1 lb was a hypothetical gear list, one with which even Wolf apparently wasn't willing to hike the JMT.

Dirtygaiters,

There are different ways to push yourself. If you must know, my plan was to push myself to get done the trail a little faster then normal. I wanted to hike the JMT (which I did) but also have some time to see some friends that I know that live in CA. They couldn’t make it so I sent the time hiking instead.

Hiking light weight also, for me brings me back to the basic, back to nature. Every time I add something to my gear list, it takes be that much farther away from being part of the wilderness. As for the added 2 oz that I had over my 1 pound goal, I was trying something new that didn’t pan out completely. It is a work in progress that if I had more time and I could get to work. Going off of your post, you seem very new to backpacking in general so I will leave you with this tip – light weight backpack require a lot of planning, analyzing everything, and planning again. Sometimes things work as we plan, sometimes not. It is all part of the experience.

As for believe my pack weight. I neither care if you believe it or not. I know what I have done and what I have not. I take credit for what I’ve done and what I could not accomplished yet. After the hike, I gave an update on how my trip went. And just for your reference, check out the following websites:

http://www.lwgear.com/images/vid-lightweight-backpacking-back.jpg (http://www.lwgear.com/images/vid-lightweight-backpacking-back.jpg)

or


http://gallery.backcountry.net/blister-steamboat_springs-dubois/DSCF0028 (http://gallery.backcountry.net/blister-steamboat_springs-dubois/DSCF0028)

Wolf

[L Tee]

Im a WASP for sure. Chicks in the south dig it :)

Oh and that godwin thing is the funniest thing ive ever heard. im so used to it being a republican, everyone calls me a brown shirt aka a nazi for having a different opinion lol. oh well, this was a fun thread to read.

[Dirtygaiters]

http://gallery.backcountry.net/blister-steamboat_springs-dubois/DSCF0028 (http://gallery.backcountry.net/blister-steamboat_springs-dubois/DSCF0028)



Pack= REI Flash UL

[_terrapin_]

Im a WASP for sure. Chicks in the south dig it :)

Lucky for you. With your attitude you're not likely to catch any chicks up north. :rolleyes:

[L Tee]

haha definately not. thats why im starting in maine and walking home.

[JAK]

Never mind the pack weight. It's the skin out weight,
excluding food and water, that I am most curious about.

[Captn]

Shelter Cuben Fiber Poncho 3.7
Pack Spectralite.60 XXL Stuff Sack with grossgrain straps 0.8
Bag Emergency Sleeping Bag 3.75
Pad 1/8 inch torso sized GG Thinlight pad 0.75
Stakes 2 TI stakes (poncho pictched with one side tied to trees) 0.01
Ground cloth Ploycrow1 .5
Jacket Use Cuben Fiber Poncho
Hat Bandana (worn)
Hat Balaclava 0.9
Cook Pot None - cold food (bars)
Spoon None
Food Bag Spectralite .60 Xlarge stuff sack 0.33
Water Treatment repackaged Aquamira 1
Water Bag 1 Liter Platy 0.7
Soap/tooth paste Microdrop of Dr. Bronners 0.2
Toothbrush Cut down kids brush 0.1
Bugs Small bottle of 100% deet 0.3
First Aid First aid (bandaids - use aquamira for wound cleansing) 0.1
Emergency Esbit Tab and a pack of waterproof matches 0.5
FlashlightMicrolight 0.3
Bearbag line Spectra Line 0.5
Diddy bag Ziplock bag 0.25
Knife Taped Razor Blade 0.1

total .99 lb

[Wolf - 23000]

Shelter Cuben Fiber Poncho 3.7
Pack Spectralite.60 XXL Stuff Sack with grossgrain straps 0.8
Bag Emergency Sleeping Bag 3.75
Pad 1/8 inch torso sized GG Thinlight pad 0.75
Stakes 2 TI stakes (poncho pictched with one side tied to trees) 0.01
Ground cloth Ploycrow1 .5
Jacket Use Cuben Fiber Poncho
Hat Bandana (worn)
Hat Balaclava 0.9
Cook Pot None - cold food (bars)
Spoon None
Food Bag Spectralite .60 Xlarge stuff sack 0.33
Water Treatment repackaged Aquamira 1
Water Bag 1 Liter Platy 0.7
Soap/tooth paste Microdrop of Dr. Bronners 0.2
Toothbrush Cut down kids brush 0.1
Bugs Small bottle of 100% deet 0.3
First Aid First aid (bandaids - use aquamira for wound cleansing) 0.1
Emergency Esbit Tab and a pack of waterproof matches 0.5
FlashlightMicrolight 0.3
Bearbag line Spectra Line 0.5
Diddy bag Ziplock bag 0.25
Knife Taped Razor Blade 0.1

total .99 lb


CAPT,

This was done on the JMT which average elevation is between 9,000 to 14,500 feet. Would you real consider going with this list in high elevation? Also, maybe it is just me but don't you think a stove would help? I notice you added in Emergency Esbit Tab and a pack of waterproof matches but had no cooking pot to boil water with. Is that really smart? Also waterproof matches are useless if the striker gets wet.

Wolf

[Dirtygaiters]

Alright, then tell us how you did it, Wolf. Instead of bashing other people's ideas you could be constructive for once.

[whitefoot_hp]

wolf does not like posting a list he is not sure others can handle. its for their own safety. probably why he was pointing out the problems with the list.

[Dirtygaiters]

We already knew that, thanks. I didn't advertize my knowledge of it, however, because I was thinking of your own safety, and the safety of unnamed other people who might use that knowledge to harm themselves. But now I share that knowledge freely because I realize that knowledge never hurt anybody.

[whitefoot_hp]

We already knew that, thanks. I didn't advertize my knowledge of it, however, because I was thinking of your own safety, and the safety of unnamed other people who might use that knowledge to harm themselves. But now I share that knowledge freely because I realize that knowledge never hurt anybody.
showing a UL gear list to someone who has not the skills needed to pull it off could harm them, if they so choose to attempt it. knowledge can hurt people.

[Dirtygaiters]

<UL snob> I'll show you my super duper gear list, but you have to promise to use it wisely, or not at all, for your own safety. I want you to put a diaper on too. And a helmet, knee pads, a pocket protector, and hey just let me snake this feeding tube down your trachea while I'm "protecting" you.
<uninitiated n00b> I'll risk it, thank you. I'm an experienced outdoorsman who has been in Scouts since early childhood and have been an active backpacker in spite of adulthood. Now I'm just interested in how you can hike with such a light pack for it seems that I am always feeling the weight of my own backpack on trips and I have exhaused all of my own ideas on how to effectively lighten it up.
<UL snob> As you wish. [opens heavy tome. A golden light emanates from it onto the face of the Lesser and for a moment he smiles]
<uninitiated n00b> My eyes! They're burning out of my sockets!!! Arrggg!!! [falls to knees clutching face. Blood is coming between his fingers]
<UL snob> told ya so, told ya so, ah-hahaha!
<uninitiated n00b> If only I had listened to them. I'd still have my eyes! Aahhhh!!!! Now I will never backpack again
<UL snob> [still laughing] You call it backpacking? I no longer call it backpacking. For with such a light pack, I define it as snopfarfing. Because of your blindness, you will never know the joys of snopfarfing as I know them. Ah-hahahaha!

[Grumpy5280]

What do I call Sub 1 lb equipment? I call this a joke!!!

Wolf asks a simple question : Sub - 1 lb of equipment: is it still backpacking? Answer: No. It is a lame attempt to call attention to yourself.

His implication: I can do it in under 1 lb. (later to be revealed to be 2 ozs more, but with the mysterious statement "I was trying something that didn't work out, but if I had more time I could figure it out.")

He refuses to list his gear, under the excuse that---he wants to protect the unknowing from their own ignorance. Which is circular reasoning of the worst type. Remember, knowledge is DANGER!!! Only the knowledgeable have a right to KNOW!

Pardon me, Wolf, but I think that people are more likely to get hurt or killed from things they DO know about (cars, bathtubs, cholesterol, cigarettes, etc.) than from considering and possibly attempting to emulate your mysterious gear list!

Wolf will not deign to tell us his gear list. We are not equals here. We are not part of the elite such as he; uninitiated we must remain.

Doesn't it feel good to have someone like him watching out for you? Just like a friend, no?

[Captn]

CAPT,

This was done on the JMT which average elevation is between 9,000 to 14,500 feet. Would you real consider going with this list in high elevation? Also, maybe it is just me but don't you think a stove would help? I notice you added in Emergency Esbit Tab and a pack of waterproof matches but had no cooking pot to boil water with. Is that really smart? Also waterproof matches are useless if the striker gets wet.

Wolf

I happen to agree with you on your points ... I wouldn't use this list myself, but I can certainly see doing this around 3 lbs. A Beer Can pot, Alcohol Stove, and a couple of Bic Lighters would come in real handy for about 2 ounces. Also, a insulated jacket and an Arc AT with an ultralight Bivy would be must haves for me for another lb and a half. I would also consider a Headnet and some sunscreen, as well as a camera, but I'm a slave to my creature comforts.

[JAK]

You could wear alot of stuff, like cordage for a belt, heavy wool sweater and pants.
It seems pointless to talk about 1 pound of gear with counting what your wearing.

[JAK]

I'm also curious if anyone has any experience with how much difference subcutaneous fat makes in keeping you warm. I know it is very useful as food, but I am curious whether it might also reduce the amount of clothing you need to wear.

[Wolf - 23000]

I happen to agree with you on your points ... I wouldn't use this list myself, but I can certainly see doing this around 3 lbs. A Beer Can pot, Alcohol Stove, and a couple of Bic Lighters would come in real handy for about 2 ounces. Also, a insulated jacket and an Arc AT with an ultralight Bivy would be must haves for me for another lb and a half. I would also consider a Headnet and some sunscreen, as well as a camera, but I'm a slave to my creature comforts.

CAPT,

First let me say, after reading my own post, it may have come across as a little harsh. That was not my intent and I am glad you did not take it that way. I do worry about people posting ultra-light gear list that as whitefoot_hp pointed out, and I totally agree with him, “showing a UL gear list to someone who has not the skills needed to pull it off could harm them.”

Back during my first PCT thru-hike I remember hearing the story of a hiker who froze to death trying to hike light weight. I’m sure he had the equipment that could have saved his life but did not have the skills to use it. Also, how often have many of us seen hikers trying to go lightweight than cry for others to help him or her out. It is irresponsible backpacking like that which give us all a bad name.

I’ve seen some crazy things over the years by some people that were not all there. I just would hate hearing if someone tried doing the JMT with your gear list and than got into trouble.

Wolf

[Wilson]

CAPT,

First let me say, after reading my own post, it may have come across as a little harsh. That was not my intent and I am glad you did not take it that way. I do worry about people posting ultra-light gear list that as whitefoot_hp pointed out, and I totally agree with him, “showing a UL gear list to someone who has not the skills needed to pull it off could harm them.”

Back during my first PCT thru-hike I remember hearing the story of a hiker who froze to death trying to hike light weight. I’m sure he had the equipment that could have saved his life but did not have the skills to use it. Also, how often have many of us seen hikers trying to go lightweight than cry for others to help him or her out. It is irresponsible backpacking like that which give us all a bad name.

I’ve seen some crazy things over the years by some people that were not all there. I just would hate hearing if someone tried doing the JMT with your gear list and than got into trouble.

Wolf
i
Interesting, Wolf what would add to his list to make it suitable for the JMT? And saying as a given, he had the required skills to use it.
Thanks.

[Wolf - 23000]

What do I call Sub 1 lb equipment? I call this a joke!!!

Wolf asks a simple question : Sub - 1 lb of equipment: is it still backpacking? Answer: No. It is a lame attempt to call attention to yourself.

His implication: I can do it in under 1 lb. (later to be revealed to be 2 ozs more, but with the mysterious statement "I was trying something that didn't work out, but if I had more time I could figure it out.")

Grumpy5280 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?u=16172),

What I asked was a simple question that soon or later would have been asked. What it boils down to is what defines as someone backpacking. You do not consider it backpacking to go under 1 pound; others do. Eventually the thinking that someone needs to travel with 50 pounds on their back to be considered as a backpacker will change.

If you read the original post, I asked “…is it possible to travel with less then a single pound of gear?” I also said that, “I should be traveling with right around 1 pound of gear.” When everything was packed up and placed on a Post Office scale, my pack weigh in at 18 oz rather than 16 oz. I would consider that within the margin of “right around”


I also was planning to do things a little different from that way I normal travel. After being out there so long, most backpackers will come up with a few ideas of their own that they haven’t tried before. If you must know, I end up having more time free to hike the trail than I was expecting. Having more days free to hike meant traveling with more food than I expected. The extra weight of the food resulted in me having to adjust and carrying an extra couple of ounces of gear.



He refuses to list his gear, under the excuse that---he wants to protect the unknowing from their own ignorance. Which is circular reasoning of the worst type. Remember, knowledge is DANGER!!! Only the knowledgeable have a right to KNOW!

Those are your words, not mine. There are some people here who are just starting out that may not know as much as the rest of us, yet. Over time, I’m sure they will pick things up and at their own pace.

Continue with your statement, “Remember, knowledge is DANGER!!! Only the knowledgeable have a right to KNOW!” You have the right to feel however, you want about knowledge however how hard is it to look inside your own and take out something you do not really need. If you cannot take out any more then that is how much you should carry.



Pardon me, Wolf, but I think that people are more likely to get hurt or killed from things they DO know about (cars, bathtubs, cholesterol, cigarettes, etc.) than from considering and possibly attempting to emulate your mysterious gear list!

If people wanted to emulate someone traveling ultra-lightweight emulate the guys on the TV show, “Man vs. Wild” or “Survivor Man”. I travel the way I do because that is the way I like to travel. I don’t try to emulate anyone and don’t encourage anyone to travel any different other than the way they naturally do.



Wolf will not deign to tell us his gear list. We are not equals here. We are not part of the elite such as he; uninitiated we must remain.


I feel we are all equal here. I’m sorry you don’t. After you get off your high horse and stop trying tell others what he or she should tell others, then maybe you might come back down to us mere motals and enjoy hiking more. Just a thought.



Doesn't it feel good to have someone like him watching out for you? Just like a friend, no?

I'm glad you feel so above everyone else, now come back to earth.

Wolf

[JAK]

I'm still more interested in clothing than gear.

[JAK]

I guess what I've been trying to say is that once you are down to roughly 1 pound of gear it just seems silly to talk about gear weight without talking about weight of the clothing that you are wearing. With certain choices of clothing you might not need much gear. So what are the clothing choices that might enable less gear? That is what I am curious about.

What is the point of this thread? Semantics?
I would rather discuss hiking.

[Lone Wolf]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]:-? As I’m sure almost anyone who has been around backpacking knows; hiking with less than the 5-lb barricade is long in the pass by some 18 years. My question is now with equipment made weighting next to nothing is it possible to travel with less then a single pound of gear?
for 99.9% of hikers, no. it's ludicrous. a stunt. and not enjoyable

[Captn]

CAPT,

First let me say, after reading my own post, it may have come across as a little harsh. That was not my intent and I am glad you did not take it that way. I do worry about people posting ultra-light gear list that as whitefoot_hp pointed out, and I totally agree with him, “showing a UL gear list to someone who has not the skills needed to pull it off could harm them.”

Back during my first PCT thru-hike I remember hearing the story of a hiker who froze to death trying to hike light weight. I’m sure he had the equipment that could have saved his life but did not have the skills to use it. Also, how often have many of us seen hikers trying to go lightweight than cry for others to help him or her out. It is irresponsible backpacking like that which give us all a bad name.

I’ve seen some crazy things over the years by some people that were not all there. I just would hate hearing if someone tried doing the JMT with your gear list and than got into trouble.

Wolf

I can certainly understand your point.

But let me submit that packweight has little to do with safety ...

I Section hiked a piece of the AT last fall and ran into these three guys from up north, two of whom had never backpacked before. They all had huge packs with all cotton clothes (three pairs of jeans each), a 10 quart steel cook pot, a gas stove, can goods, etc.

My base weight for that trip was about 8 lbs.

One of these fella's went into Hypothermia on the second day I ran accross them on the trail wearing three tee shirts and a acrylic hat, along with jeans and boots. His shirts were soaked through with sweat and he started to not make sense when he talked, as well as having had the shivers for several hours. I made him take off those wet shirts and put on a dry shirt along with a fleece from one of his buddies ... I then told him to make darn shure he had a dry shirt to put on at every stop, even if he had to put a damp one back on under his fleece when he went back to hiking.

His 60 lb pack didn't help him out all that much.

Carrying the Right stuff to complement your knowledge is, while safety is never a certainty in the back country or out of it, a huge step forward in preparing yourself for the likelyhood of returning to civilization.

Could I hike the JMT with a 1 lb pack?

Certainly.

Would I want to?

Nope ..... I'm not into that level of machocisim <sic> thank you very much. Gee, I could hike it with a pocket knife, a fleece, a water bottle, and a flint but It sure as heck would not be a pleasant trip.

Could I die out there?

Certainly.

But I'd say that all in all it's much more likely that I'd have a Dumba_s attack and kill myself from stupidity irregardless of how much gear I was carrying.

After all ... we all have a touch of the Dumba_s in us at times.

[Wolf - 23000]

for 99.9% of hikers, no. it's ludicrous. a stunt. and not enjoyable

We all know your a super ultra light wennie who just bought that super light weight backpack not to long ago. That is when you take the rocks out of your pack.:)

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

I'm still more interested in clothing than gear.

I don't know why this is of interest, but I wore a polyester long sleeve shirt with pair of nylon shorts total weight 6 oz. I also had a light weight jacket that I don't have handly here.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

I can certainly understand your point.

But let me submit that packweight has little to do with safety ...

I Section hiked a piece of the AT last fall and ran into these three guys from up north, two of whom had never backpacked before. They all had huge packs with all cotton clothes (three pairs of jeans each), a 10 quart steel cook pot, a gas stove, can goods, etc.

My base weight for that trip was about 8 lbs.

One of these fella's went into Hypothermia on the second day I ran accross them on the trail wearing three tee shirts and a acrylic hat, along with jeans and boots. His shirts were soaked through with sweat and he started to not make sense when he talked, as well as having had the shivers for several hours. I made him take off those wet shirts and put on a dry shirt along with a fleece from one of his buddies ... I then told him to make darn shure he had a dry shirt to put on at every stop, even if he had to put a damp one back on under his fleece when he went back to hiking.

His 60 lb pack didn't help him out all that much.

Carrying the Right stuff to complement your knowledge is, while safety is never a certainty in the back country or out of it, a huge step forward in preparing yourself for the likelyhood of returning to civilization.

Could I hike the JMT with a 1 lb pack?

Certainly.

Would I want to?

Nope ..... I'm not into that level of machocisim <sic> thank you very much. Gee, I could hike it with a pocket knife, a fleece, a water bottle, and a flint but It sure as heck would not be a pleasant trip.

Could I die out there?

Certainly.

But I'd say that all in all it's much more likely that I'd have a Dumba_s attack and kill myself from stupidity irregardless of how much gear I was carrying.

After all ... we all have a touch of the Dumba_s in us at times.

Capt,

I agree with everything you said completely.

As some people may or may not know the guy you were talking about carrying 60 pounds with jeans, and cotton clothes. Well when I first started backpacking, that sounded like me. I did not get into trouble like the guy you were refering to but I did the same mistakes and then some.

Wolf

[Captn]

Wolf .... learning the hard way certainly made an impression on me years ago.

[Grumpy5280]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy5280 http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=584151#post584151)
Wolf will not deign to tell us his gear list. We are not equals here. We are not part of the elite such as he; uninitiated we must remain.


Wolf's reply: I feel we are all equal here. I’m sorry you don’t. After you get off your high horse and stop trying tell others what he or she should tell others, then maybe you might come back down to us mere motals and enjoy hiking more. Just a thought.

That's the pot calling the kettle black.

[whitefoot_hp]

Captn, by discussing the man who had a 60 lb pack and hypothermia, you did not refute the argument that an UL gear list w/ out the right knowledge is dangerous. you merely provided a different example of how someone can get hurt, (brining dysfunctional clothing).

you can still run in to problems with being underprepared gear wise for your skill level.

[ed bell]

Captn, by discussing the man who had a 60 lb pack and hypothermia, you did not refute the argument that an UL gear list w/ out the right knowledge is dangerous. you merely provided a different example of how someone can get hurt, (brining dysfunctional clothing).

you can still run in to problems with being underprepared gear wise for your skill level.W/ out the right knowledge the .823 lb gear list I have is VERY dangerous.:rolleyes:;):D C'mon now. I would worry about anyone who would want a sub 1lb gear list without figuring it out for themselves. Obviously its not an exercise in coloring in between the lines.

[88BlueGT]

For some reason I don't think that I would enjoy hiking with something under 10lbs. I guess I consider "backpacking" packing something on your back, that has a little weight to it lol. But back to the old famous quote HYOH :) If you enjoy it, go for it. If its considered backpacking... not sure. I would have to agree with the person who posted on the first page who said its more like survival packing lol.

[Captn]

Captn, by discussing the man who had a 60 lb pack and hypothermia, you did not refute the argument that an UL gear list w/ out the right knowledge is dangerous. you merely provided a different example of how someone can get hurt, (brining dysfunctional clothing).

you can still run in to problems with being underprepared gear wise for your skill level.

Very true Whitefoot ..... but my point remains. Irregardless of how much weight you carry, knowledge is the most important item to take with you.

As such ... this thought should be a basic backpacking law:

Until you have developed the knowledge, carry more than you think you need, but make sure it's the right stuff to carry.

[Wolf - 23000]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy5280 http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=584151#post584151)
Wolf will not deign to tell us his gear list. We are not equals here. We are not part of the elite such as he; uninitiated we must remain.


Wolf's reply: I feel we are all equal here. I’m sorry you don’t. After you get off your high horse and stop trying tell others what he or she should tell others, then maybe you might come back down to us mere motals and enjoy hiking more. Just a thought.

That's the pot calling the kettle black.


Grumpy5280,

Oh really. How many of your post seem to tell me that I should post a gear list? Now lets look back at my post and count how many times I've told people what they should or should not write. :-?

Wolf

[fiddlehead]

Hey Wolf, sounds like a good goal for you. I know you have the experience. I remember the time you were hiking the PCT with a fanny pack and you caught up to us and handed Rainman a 24 oz beer out of it. (or was it bigger?)

I attempted a speed hike on the JMT about 10 years ago with an ultra running friend of mine who carried 4 lbs plus food. (we didn't carry more than a pint of water at a time, after all it is the Sierras)

I had to talk him into carrying a sleeping bag as he didn't really want to. (we used them for a total of about 13 hours in the 5 1/2 days we took for the speed hike. BUT, i carried some stuff that we shared. For example, the cooking pot. You are probably going to cook as it's a lighter way to go than candy bars etc. IMO. If you do, you need a cooking pot, and that is going to weigh probably half your lb. Unless you are wearing all your clothes and not taking a sleeping bag.

Also, i would like to say that i spent a night out above 10,000 feet once, in the snow, with no sleeping bag. I don't want to do it again. I know you normally only carry a bivy. I think you better plan on moving all the time. No stopping at night except for rests. You know it gets cold up there even in the summer. Granted you don't need a water bottle in the sierras, and raingear is light. And i know you can hike like not many can. But be careful out there and add a fleece jacket at least. (i guess if you wear it from the start it'll not be included, is that the plan?

I will say on that hike we did, many people were wondering how we could get so far from the nearest trailhead with no more than a daypack. We also cached food and bought at Red's as well as the breakfast at Tuollume (recommended if you hit it at the right time)
Now as for the fight you got yourself in with this Grumpy?, Well you should've just done the hike and not told this forum. Like you said, they will bash you either way.

Just be careful and carry that extra jacket, aye? have fun. (and that cooking pot to get up and cook yourself some hot tea if you decide to try to sleep)

[JAK]

Not a very informative thread.

[Wolf - 23000]

Not a very informative thread.

True. It is just too bad that some people want to hi-jack other thread for their own personal amusement.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

Hey Wolf, sounds like a good goal for you. I know you have the experience. I remember the time you were hiking the PCT with a fanny pack and you caught up to us and handed Rainman a 24 oz beer out of it. (or was it bigger?)

I attempted a speed hike on the JMT about 10 years ago with an ultra running friend of mine who carried 4 lbs plus food. (we didn't carry more than a pint of water at a time, after all it is the Sierras)

I had to talk him into carrying a sleeping bag as he didn't really want to. (we used them for a total of about 13 hours in the 5 1/2 days we took for the speed hike. BUT, i carried some stuff that we shared. For example, the cooking pot. You are probably going to cook as it's a lighter way to go than candy bars etc. IMO. If you do, you need a cooking pot, and that is going to weigh probably half your lb. Unless you are wearing all your clothes and not taking a sleeping bag.

Also, i would like to say that i spent a night out above 10,000 feet once, in the snow, with no sleeping bag. I don't want to do it again. I know you normally only carry a bivy. I think you better plan on moving all the time. No stopping at night except for rests. You know it gets cold up there even in the summer. Granted you don't need a water bottle in the sierras, and raingear is light. And i know you can hike like not many can. But be careful out there and add a fleece jacket at least. (i guess if you wear it from the start it'll not be included, is that the plan?

I will say on that hike we did, many people were wondering how we could get so far from the nearest trailhead with no more than a daypack. We also cached food and bought at Red's as well as the breakfast at Tuollume (recommended if you hit it at the right time)
Now as for the fight you got yourself in with this Grumpy?, Well you should've just done the hike and not told this forum. Like you said, they will bash you either way.

Just be careful and carry that extra jacket, aye? have fun. (and that cooking pot to get up and cook yourself some hot tea if you decide to try to sleep)

fiddlehead,

I did this trip last year. I manage to get my gear down to 18 oz (including my jacket). It rained on me 3 times and once snowed on about 1/2 inch but regardless I wish I could do it again. Due to my job, I'm not sure I will be able to try again for a while.

Wolf

[Wilson]

Back to the OP question, after reading between the lines of whats just been posted...I'd say No it's not backpacking as I know it. No one piece of my gear weighs less than a pound. And I consider myself light weight compared to what I carried in the past.

Not saying its bad, or not interesting....cause it is.

[JAK]

What's so great about backpacking anyway?
Isn't it hiking that it's really all about?

Backpacking is for consumers.

[ed bell]

If not backpacking, then what is it? If the load is not on someone else's back, then what does it matter? These questions are as legitimate as the original one.:-?:cool::D

[JAK]

True. It is just too bad that some people want to hi-jack other thread for their own personal amusement.

WolfI still don't get the point of your thread, no matter how many times you try and explain it. You don't want to discuss specific means or methods, and yet your not into the philosophy either. So what gives? It seems your just trolling for trolls or something. At least your not selling stuff. I get a sense that on the trail you would be more forthcoming. Cheers.

[JAK]

Buildings are for builders.
Dwellings are for dwellers.

Hiking is for hikers.
Backpacks are for outfitters.

[Wolf - 23000]

Back to the OP question, after reading between the lines of whats just been posted...I'd say No it's not backpacking as I know it. No one piece of my gear weighs less than a pound. And I consider myself light weight compared to what I carried in the past.

Not saying its bad, or not interesting....cause it is.

Wilson,

First off, thank you for staying with the original topic. Second, in yours and anyone else who does not consider this as backpacking opinion, why would you consider this differently compare to someone traveling with say 30 pounds. Is there a certain weight limit that defines how much a backpacker must carry?

With lighter and lighter equipment available, I like to see as a WB whole, what determines if someone is a backpacker or not. Is it how much someone is carrying, how far they are traveling, or maybe a combination of both or something else. If these UL backpackers (for lack of a better word) are not backpackers then what are they? Is it a new sport? This is simple an opinion question on what defines a backpacker.

Wolf

[JAK]

I still don't get it. To me it's like you are talking a totally different language.

Form follows function! Dammit!!!

[Wolf - 23000]

I still don't get the point of your thread, no matter how many times you try and explain it. You don't want to discuss specific means or methods, and yet your not into the philosophy either. So what gives? It seems your just trolling for trolls or something. At least your not selling stuff. I get a sense that on the trail you would be more forthcoming. Cheers.

JAK,

As you may or may not have notice on this thread and on trail, some people don't consider this has still backpacking while others do. It is not going to stop me from continue to go hiking but I like to know if others think. More and more hikers I sure are going to be traveling just as light if not lighter. The question comes to mind is this backpacking or something else?

Wolf