Maps [Archive] - WhiteBlaze - Appalachian Trail

max patch

09-18-2007, 10:59

Get the maps. Lots of reasons for it. If you can get them second hand even better. But don't get the set with the guides - just get the maps.

Wait til the annual sale - Thanksgiving thru Christmas Eve or thereabouts - and for the price of just the maps now you get the maps, all the guidebooks and the data book. While you probably won't carry the guidebooks - I did for the mini history lesson I got everyday about the trail - I still use mine today as a great reference about the trail. The road access info is of great use as I do day and short section hikes.

Joe8484

09-18-2007, 10:59

Get the maps. Lots of reasons for it. If you can get them second hand even better. But don't get the set with the guides - just get the maps.

are the maps with the guide sets different?

TrippinBTM

09-18-2007, 11:00

alright... anyone got some used maps they don't want any more?

jlb2012

09-18-2007, 11:05

Does the ATC still have that end of year special on the map bundle? Sort of a clearance thing I think. As I recall that was probably the best deal for the whole bundle.

SGT Rock

09-18-2007, 11:15

First - become a member, it is worth it. Discounts on the maps and other things you may want. Then you also support the trail and I think some places along the trail give you a discount if you are an ATC member.

Then get the set without the books: $165 new or wait for the end of year sale https://www.atctrailstore.org/catalog/iteminfo.cfm?itemid=190&compid=1

Finally get a Companion: https://www.atctrailstore.org/catalog/iteminfo.cfm?itemid=564&compid=1

The Solemates

09-18-2007, 18:21

you dont need the maps.

They are nice to have, but I have never used them on the trail and I've hiked the trail 1.5 times.

Peaks

09-18-2007, 18:34

It's irresponsible to hike without maps. Buy the maps and support the organization that maintains the trail for all of us.

Lone Wolf

09-18-2007, 20:16

It's irresponsible to hike without maps. Buy the maps and support the organization that maintains the trail for all of us.

i bought and still carry maps. you never know when an emergency will come up and you need to consult the map to find the quickest route out for help. as far as supporting the ATC, well they didn't support helping authorities track down the murderer in 90 and now thety run articles about horse packing near the AT on their front cover. i'll give to bob peoples and the little clubs

The Old Fhart

09-18-2007, 20:34

Lone Wolf-"......you never know when an emergency will come up and you need to consult the map to find the quickest route out for help....."I have to agree with LW on this one. Even if you could follow the trail in good daytime conditions, as LW said, there are emergencies and weather conditions when a map could save your life.

I have a good record with hiking safely but I still carry map, compass, and a first aid kit; plus I know how to use them, which is just as important.

Lone Wolf

09-18-2007, 20:36

I have to agree with LW on this one. Even if you could follow the trail in good daytime conditions, as LW said, there are emergencies and weather conditions when a map could save your life.

I have a good record with hiking safely but I still carry map, compass, and a first aid kit; plus I know how to use them, which is just as important.

that's cuz you and i are smarter than the average first time, know-it-all, wannabe THROUGHS as they're called.:)

Roland

09-18-2007, 20:40

that's cuz you and i are smarter than the average first time, know-it-all, wannabe THROUGHS as they're called.:)

I've long aspired to be as smart as LW. Every night, at bedtime, I pray that I can be just like him.

Then one night it happened. My wife woke me, asking why I was yelling in my sleep. SHELTERS SUCK!

Appalachian Tater

09-18-2007, 20:42

I have to agree with LW on this one. Even if you could follow the trail in good daytime conditions, as LW said, there are emergencies and weather conditions when a map could save your life.

I have a good record with hiking safely but I still carry map, compass, and a first aid kit; plus I know how to use them, which is just as important.

You don't need a first aid kit, just duct tape and toilet paper and ibuprophen. If those things can't take care of the problem you need to get off the trail to a physician anyway.

Lone Wolf

09-18-2007, 20:43

I've long aspired to be as smart as LW. Every night, at bedtime, I pray that I can be just like him.

Then one night it happened. My wife woke me, asking why I was yelling in my sleep. SHELTERS SUCK!

right on rollie!:D keep prayin'. or put me on IGNORE

Roland

09-18-2007, 20:44

right on rollie!:D keep prayin'. or put me on IGNORE

And miss all the fun?

When I finally woke up, I had my Lekis bent into a pretzel, and was throwing them out the window.

Lone Wolf

09-18-2007, 20:45

And miss all the fun?

When I finally woke up, I had my Lekis bent into a pretzel, and was throwing them out the window.

cool. an ally :)

Roland

09-18-2007, 20:47

We now return you to your regular scheduled program...

SGT Rock

09-18-2007, 20:49

The most dangerous person in the Army is usually someone that has done something once and knows it all. Who are we talking about anyway?

Roland

09-18-2007, 20:54

The most dangerous person in the Army is usually someone that has done something once and knows it all. Who are we talking about anyway?

Ok, I'll bite.

Who are you talking about?

LostInSpace

09-18-2007, 20:59

Entrepreneurial opportunity:

Imprint toilet paper with maps of the AT. Sell appropriate sections at resupply points according to the section currently being hiked. Dual purpose … and does not necessitate any increase in weight to be carried.

SGT Rock

09-18-2007, 21:00

Ok, I'll bite.

Who are you talking about?
I'm not sure actually, I was adding my two cents to the comments about how some people do something once and say they know it all.

The Old Fhart

09-18-2007, 21:18

Appalachian Tater-"You don't need a first aid kit, just duct tape and toilet paper and ibuprophen. If those things can't take care of the problem you need to get off the trail to a physician anyway."The 'you' referred to in your quote isn't me. I have been trained in wilderness first aid on a regular basis over the last 2 decades by SOLO, one of the premiere wilderness medicine training groups around. According to their site,
SOLO (http://www.soloschools.com/wfa.html) "has instructed over 75,000 individuals, guides, mountain rescue teams, and staffs from organizations such as NOLS, Outward Bound, the Appalachian Mountain Club, Nantahala Outdoor Center,The Sierra Club, and the National Park Service as well as fire, rescue and ambulance services."

"Accidents can and do happen on ropes courses, along country roads, or in the backcountry, and all too often members of a group are not capable of dealing with the emergency. Not only does this lead to improper care of the patient, but it also endangers the entire group.
.......
Studies have shown that many recreational accidents are preventable, and that improper care of trauma can compound even the simplest of injuries. Through our involvement in emergency medicine and rescue efforts, we at SOLO feel there is a need for training for all outdoorspeople - training which stresses preparedness and prevention; training which encompasses all phases of off-road emergencies; training which focuses on extended care issues in prolonged transport situations. Very few first aid programs actually address the issues of providing emergency care in a rural, wilderness, or extended care setting." A map and compass isn't useless to those who know how to use them and a first aid kit isn't useless to me either.

Basically, going into the woods without the 10 essential items (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/activity/hiking/skills/teness.htm) could actually be very dangerous. Keep in mind that SAR efforts could take up to 18 hours in many wilderness areas and your knowledge and first aid equipment and your training could mean a lot. I've been in situations like that and I'm glad I had the training.

Appalachian Tater

09-18-2007, 21:24

If you've had first aid training then you understand that first aid is first aid and not definitive medical treatment. There's nothing in a hiking first aid kit that toilet paper and duct tape can't substitute for. That and ibuprophen are all you need. If there are other essential items, please list them.

The Old Fhart

09-18-2007, 21:56

Appalachian Tater-"If you've had first aid training then you understand that first aid is first aid and not definitive medical treatment."I never said it was anything different-what's your point? An ambulance with EMTs isn’t definitive medical treatment either so are you suggesting that all they carry be “just duct tape and toilet paper and ibuprophen”? That is ludicrous.

Appalachian Tater-"There's nothing in a hiking first aid kit that toilet paper and duct tape can't substitute for. :eek:

Appalachian Tater-"If there are other essential items, please list them.I'm not here to try to try teach you what you need in a wilderness first aid kit, especially where you obviously don't see the need for one, but you can Google (http://www.emedicinehealth.com/wilderness_first_aid_kit/article_em.htm) and find countless suggestions. I’ve given you links and quotes from experts that say you should carry an adequate first aid kit and have the knowledge to use it but you say you know better?

Appalachian Tater

09-18-2007, 22:04

Forceps? Wire cutters? Vinegar? LOL. None of that stuff belongs in a backpacker's first aid kit. Most of what they list is bandaging material. No need to carry bandaging material if you have toilet paper and duct tape.

SGT Rock

09-18-2007, 22:09

Well except that your toliet paper is probably not very steril and could lead to the onset of an infection that could be avoided with a little neosporin and some grams worth of steril gauze in the wrappers.

And lets see, if I were going to be out for a while and wanted to avoid having to go off trail for some possible bad hygine/food issues I might want to add a couple of grams of pepto tablets. Sure I could do without it, but it might save some discomfort.

And add to that the ability to take off a tick if needed, so I might want some sort of tool like tweesers. Shure I could leave it on, but I hear there has been a high incidence of Lyme these days. Oh well...

And a knife to cut tape and maybe trim gauze and nails for a preventative for ingrown toenails.

Probably some other ideas of what medical stuff you may want to do besides stop the bleeding.

The Old Fhart

09-18-2007, 22:19

Appalachian Tater-"No need to carry bandaging material if you have toilet paper and duct tape."I'm sure all the EMTs out there are jotting down: "tp and duct tape...":rolleyes:

I've given you references. How about showing me where someone, anyone, with any real knowledge of wilderness first aid agrees with you, just to back up your wild claim with some verifiable facts?:D

TinAbbey

09-18-2007, 22:22

many thrus hike without the maps

Lone Wolf

09-18-2007, 22:23

many thrus hike without the maps

what's a thru

TinAbbey

09-18-2007, 22:24

whats a map

Jack Tarlin

09-18-2007, 22:24

Many thrus do a lot of dumb and questionable things.

Travelling in mountain or woods terrain that you don't know intimately, without maps, is reckless and foolhardy.

Doing something stupid that lots of other folks do doesn't make it any smarter.

Lone Wolf

09-18-2007, 22:26

whats a map

somethin that might save your dumb ass or someone around you. how much have you hiked on the AT?

TinAbbey

09-18-2007, 22:27

okay. you're right.

Lone Wolf

09-18-2007, 22:29

okay. you're right.

+you g oddamn right i am!:cool:

TinAbbey

09-18-2007, 22:30

wait that was for jack

LostInSpace

09-18-2007, 22:33

Tradeoff: What is the cost of a map vs. what is the cost of a potential mishap that you could have mitigated if you had a map?

The Old Fhart

09-18-2007, 22:34

TinAbbey-"Many thrus hike without the maps"True, no one said otherwise. We are discussing the lack of wisdom of doing that. Also the hikers without maps are always asking to see mine.

SGT Rock-"Well except that your toliet paper is probably not very steril and could lead to the onset of an infection that could be avoided with a little neosporin and some grams worth of steril gauze in the wrappers.....Probably some other ideas of what medical stuff you may want to do besides stop the bleeding."Correct, Rock. A number of hikers carry sanitary napkins as sterile dressings. The majority of the clothing a hiker has is always more or less dirty. Most of the fabrics like synthetics used like fleece, polypro, etc, are hydrophobic and don't work for dressings even when clean.

Jack Tarlin

09-18-2007, 22:39

Trade-off?

Gee, most maps are around seven or eight bucks.

What's YOUR life worth, eh?

I'd like to think mine's worth slightly more than that..... :-?

The Old Fhart

09-18-2007, 22:41

Jack Tarlin-"What's YOUR life worth, eh? I'd like to think mine's worth slightly more than that.....:-?" We could start another poll thread and find out..:D

Appalachian Tater

09-18-2007, 22:42

Old Phart, there's a huge difference between what an EMT carries in the back of an ambulance vs. what a backpacker carries in a first aid kit. What an EMT carries is not even relevant--for instance, electrocardioversion equipment and a stretcher.

SGT Rock, you're right about the tweezers. You also need some way to clean a wound--soap, alcohol, or baby butt wipes.

Sterile dressings aren't really necessary for minor wounds. If a wound is serious enough to need a sterile dressing, you need to get off the trail. The organisms that cause wound infections are already found on the skin or on the organic material involved in a penetrating wound on the trail, not on clean toilet paper. The lint from the toilet paper is probably more harmful than any organisms on it.

I do carry triple antibiotic ointment because minor scratches seem to heal slowly on the trail, but it's more of a convenience factor to speed healing and would not prevent a serious infection.

Every hiker should be carrying some sort of small cutting tool.

And as you pointed out, anyone who has special need such as digestive problems or allergies that could result in anaphylactic shock should carry treatment for those things as well.

I would be curious to have people give anecdotes regarding the actual first aid that they have rendered or seen rendered on the A.T.

LostInSpace

09-18-2007, 22:43

I'd like to think mine's worth slightly more than that..... :-?

My point exactly!

The Old Fhart

09-18-2007, 23:04

Appalachian Tater-"I would be curious to have people give anecdotes regarding the actual first aid that they have rendered or seen rendered on the A.T."As Jester's byline states: "The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."" How about giving some actual facts? Reference a link, anything.

Appalachian Tater-"Sterile dressings aren't really necessary for minor wounds. If a wound is serious enough to need a sterile dressing, you need to get off the trail."So your 'plan' is to not have a serious accident, or if it is serious, not so serious that you can't get off the trail! :D You gotta admit that is laughable. Break a leg? No problem, get off the trail. Get impaled by falling on one of Lone Wolf’s Leki poles? No problem, use all of MS’s 6 rolls of t.p.. Injured so bad you can’t get out? No problem, take an ibuprophen and call me in the morning!

You've already admitted there are other things you should carry. You’re making progress in spite of yourself..

Appalachian Tater

09-18-2007, 23:19

As Jester's byline states: "The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."" How about giving some actual facts? Reference a link, anything.

So your 'plan' is to not have a serious accident, or if it is serious, not so serious that you can't get off the trail! :D You gotta admit that is laughable. Break a leg? No problem, get off the trail. Get impaled by falling on one of Lone Wolf’s Leki poles? No problem, use all of MS’s 6 rolls of t.p.. Injured so bad you can’t get out? No problem, take an ibuprophen and call me in the morning!

You've already admitted there are other things you should carry. You’re making progress in spite of yourself..

I suppose you carry an automatic unmanned helicopter rescue vehicle folded up in your first aid kit? Or what is it that you carry that will take care of broken bones, being impaled, or an injury so bad you can't get out?

Duct tape and a stick, duct tape and toilet paper, and a telephone are what you need in those situations. Nothing you could carry on your back would be any improvement in any of those situations. Certainly not a 2x2 or 4x4 or vinegar or wire cutters or antibiotic ointment or butterfly strips or bandaids or a suture kit or whatver else you might find in a first aid kit that a hiker would carry. :banana

Jack Tarlin

09-18-2007, 23:34

Hey, guys, enough.

The thread is abut Maps.

You've both said some interesting things, but anybody who'd ordinarily check out a "First Aid" thread won't see any of your comments.

Cuz we were talking about MAPS here.

You wanna talk medicine or First Aid, start a new thread.

Lone Wolf

09-18-2007, 23:36

Jack Tarlin

09-18-2007, 23:42

Nope, not me. Not a job I'd want. It's just that these guys are saying some interesting stuff....that most folks won't see. The "Map" thing's been done to death here, but lots of folks are interested in First Aid.

Hell Wolf, YOU take Dino's job. Things's be kept short and pithy.

Lone Wolf

09-18-2007, 23:44

minnesotasmith

09-19-2007, 03:07

IMO, if you can't afford the 200 bucks for the whole set, your resources are too skimpy for a properly-prepared thruhike. Go get a second PT job, stop smoking and drinking, drop the cable TV and Starbucks stops, whatever it takes to become ready for your thruhike.

SGT Rock

09-19-2007, 06:49

This is like the problem with people that don't pay for hostels because they don't have money - yet still have money for beer and/or weed.

Maps will probably give you more protection than a pricey filter and when you think about all the other expenses involved in a hike, $165 isn't that much. If a standard thru-hike takes about 5.5 months, that comes out to $1 a day.

ki0eh

09-19-2007, 08:07

Getting back to maps, any opinions about the Mapdanas?

SGT Rock

09-19-2007, 08:09

Not good for navigation on the trail but they are nice to have the data book waypoints handy out where ever you carry your bandanna for qick reference.

trekkngirl

09-19-2007, 10:54

Ha!!! This was too funny and very serious at the same time..I love it!!
I have been pondering whether to get the maps or not, but you guys have convinced me to get them.I really just didn't want the extra weight was my reason not to carry them.But I see the need now and I know I can divide them out into drops along the way..I am concerned about the hyways and byways off the trail around the towns.Do these maps carry you that part as well?

Hi ya Lone Wolf,it's been a long time since I saw you last.

You guys are talking about the ATC maps w/o the guide books,right? Just wanna be on the same page. :)

Thanks Pat

Appalachian Tater

09-19-2007, 10:59

https://www.atctrailstore.org/catalog/iteminfo.cfm?itemid=190&compid=1

That's what's being discussed. The maps show roads but are trail maps and are designed to illustrate the A.T. and contours and mark shelters, some water, etc.

trekkngirl

09-19-2007, 20:42

Got it..Thanks

Tennessee Viking

09-19-2007, 23:02

Well its money well worth it. Most of the money goes to the maintenance of the AT.

But if you are looking cheap. Try Amazon.com & eBay for used copies. Sometimes hikers will leave their copies at hostels or shelters whenever the finish a section, but they go quick. You can get Springer to Damascus in 5 maps. Springer to Fontana, either the Park Map or Natl Geo Map of the Smokies, and Davenport Gap to Damascus.

The guides are a bit different because they actually describe the land. And describe more water sources & campsites. And give details of shelters.

If you are familiar with a section you probably will not really need it. AT maps are good for a planning out your hike for terrain, grade, water sources, and shelter/trailhead locations. If you encounter an emergency or need to get civilization, they will have most forest roads or side trails shown.

But I suggest only packing a section or two at a time. And get the rest on resupply runs or mail drops.

Mags

09-20-2007, 12:03

What I noticed about the maps is that people who DON'T take the maps often ask to look at the maps of people who do. :-?

Just sayin'....

johnny quest

09-20-2007, 12:58

i love maps. i just got my set from the atc and am already enjoying them. bewared though, they are heavy and some are printed on only one side. i guess you could trim the edges. i think some are water proof.

Jack Tarlin

09-20-2007, 14:13

MAGS is correct. People who are mapless NEVER miss an opportunity to ask to see someone else's whenever they get the chance. I know of hikers who did this virtually every day on their hikes.

If they did this with other people's FOOD, they'd get slapped. :D

Lone Wolf

09-20-2007, 14:19

Well its money well worth it. Most of the money goes to the maintenance of the AT.

how do you know that?

Johnny Thunder

09-20-2007, 14:34

I have a set of maps for PA which are of greater detail than I think I'd want to carry on anything more than a weekend. The set I'm referring to has about 8 maps for PA and is lightly laminated to be "water resistant". I was looking at the map I carried this past weekend (the one from Duncannon north) and figured I'd be from one end to the other in 3 days. Probably don't need that much detail because the only time I really HAD to look at it was when we were trying to figure out the place where Mary/Jester would meet us.

Are there other options or is this the same resource you'd find in the full ATC boxed set (with special edition Johnny Thunder gold-foil Rookie card)? If I'm really only carrying them to know where the roads are I definitely wouldn't need as much detail.

Johnny

ki0eh

09-20-2007, 14:37

The funds go to the publishers which also happen to be the groups who maintain the A.T.

Speaking from personal experience with non-A.T. trails, sales of maps and guides are generally the only source of cash even to buy such things as trail tools and paint.

sonic

09-20-2007, 16:13

Well, I'm sold on maps. Read Livestrong's 2005 trail journal. he found a lost boy in Georgia (flip-flop so it was October/November if I remember correctly). they hiked together until they found another person with a map, he found out how to get down to a road and the search and rescue team met them. Not sure what would have happened if they didn't have a map to refer to.

faarside

09-20-2007, 16:18

I believe maps are important. I always have them and a good compass. An option to getting and carrying a full map set is to try a product from a company called AntiGravityGear they call the Mapdana. Basically these are AT color maps printed on high quality 27"x27" bandana's. The entire AT is represented on four individual bandana's that weigh approx. 1.6 oz each.

Although not as detailed as a full hiking set, the Mapdana's do show elevation info, major road crossings, major towns, maildrops, zip codes, ATM, lodging, hostels, campgrounds, outfitter phone numbers, medical facility info, and other useful information.

These are available from Campmor for $12.95 each. They say a portion of the proceeds from the sale of these goes toward AT related maintenance. Just go to www.campmor.com and type "Mapdana" in the search box. Hope this helps.

Happy trails!