View Full Version : American Chestnut trees along the AT
shelterbuilder
09-24-2007, 15:23
I was walking a section of the AT between Port Clinton and Windsor Furnace (in Pa.) today, and I was amazed at how many small American Chestnut trees I could see from the footpath. Hundreds, if not thousands! Most of these were under 10 feet tall. Yes, I know that the blight doesn't hit them until they are a little bigger than this, but I wondered: how are the native populations doing in areas where this tree had once been prolific? Some scientists who study this tree and the blight that affects them believe that some trees MAY develop an immunity to the blight at some future time. (I know of at least one on-going study taking place near Lancaster, Pa.)
if they are under 10 feet tall and there are no old dead parts then they are probably chinquapin bushes (a close relative of the american chestnut)
you do still see american chestnut trees from stump sprouts but generally you don't see a lot of them - maybe 1 a mile or so IMO
shelterbuilder
09-24-2007, 16:06
if they are under 10 feet tall and there are no old dead parts then they are probably chinquapin bushes (a close relative of the american chestnut)
you do still see american chestnut trees from stump sprouts but generally you don't see a lot of them - maybe 1 a mile or so IMO
It was a mix - some appeared to be new, young trees, and some were stump sprouts. In years past, in other areas south of Port Clinton, I have found larger, infected chestnut trees throwing burrs. Unfortunately, they were on State Game Lands in fire breaks along dirt roads - every few years, the Game Commission goes through and cuts EVERYTHING down to the ground - the chestnut trees included!
According to The Vascular Flora of Pennsylvania, Cantanea pumila does not occur where you were hiking this weekend sb. You were indeed seeing American chestnut. I know of a tree less than 10 miles from where you were that grew to about 6 inches dbh before it succumbed to blight.
Unfortunately, I never made a point of getting there at the proper time to gather nuts. I've never eaten an American chestnut although it's something I've often hoped to do someday.
Alligator
09-24-2007, 16:41
One of the big problems that occurred that would affect chestnut immunity is that right after the blight, most large chestnuts were cut in an attempt to salvage the trees. So any blight resistant trees may have been cut down.
There are quite a lot of chestnuts in TN and NC. The little ones look quite healthy; the bigger ones don't. Some do produce nuts, though.
AP article (http://www.livescience.com/environment/ap_060518_chestnuts.html)
TN_Hiker
09-24-2007, 16:52
You might be interested in checking out the American Chestnut Foundation at www.acf.org (http://www.acf.org).
NICKTHEGREEK
09-24-2007, 17:01
I know of 2 large, fully mature and healthy American Chesnuts in southern Maryland.
One of the big problems that occurred that would affect chestnut immunity is that right after the blight, most large chestnuts were cut in an attempt to salvage the trees. So any blight resistant trees may have been cut down.
Right after the blight those stems were dead, weren't they? Don't you mean salvage the lumber? Since the largest trees maybe were the most vigorous and maybe most resistant and maybe wouldn't have thrown sprouts, I can agree that maybe what you're claiming may be so.;)
Were you trying to test me with your statement to see if I'm paying attention? I'm awake and I always watch the American chestnut threads.
I know of 2 large, fully mature and healthy American Chesnuts in southern Maryland.
How big, NTG?
I posted last year on Penn State's efforts to develop hybrid American chestnuts. They're still at it and have been adding to their website too.
Go here (http://chestnut.cas.psu.edu) for more information than most people desire to know about the subject.
Alligator
09-24-2007, 17:58
Right after the blight those stems were dead, weren't they? Don't you mean salvage the lumber? Since the largest trees maybe were the most vigorous and maybe most resistant and maybe wouldn't have thrown sprouts, I can agree that maybe what you're claiming may be so.;)
Were you trying to test me with your statement to see if I'm paying attention? I'm awake and I always watch the American chestnut threads.They cut the stems to salvage the lumber from the trees yes. The blight was so bad the trees were cut for salvage dead or alive. Meaning, the few large seed bearing trees that may have been blight resistant were cut, making it difficult for the species to recover. The chance for a bottleneck recovery was greatly reduced by this action.
Since it was likely thought to be a lost cause anyway, all the trees that could be cut were. Had the trees that appeared to be healthy were saved, they could have crossed potentially with other resistant trees once those not resistant were eliminated.
It may be true of chestnuts that root-collar sprouts are more vigorous than those from roots, but are not as apt to be produced by older trees. Following that line of thought, those individuals to which you refer were lost as a breeding population if not set back significantly.
Have I grasped your point?
Some really cool stuff going on with this tree in the South. Closely guarded sites etc. Fingers crossed...
If you know of a mature tree, contact someone from the society, please don't post it's location. mum is good.
shelterbuilder
09-24-2007, 18:36
I posted last year on Penn State's efforts to develop hybrid American chestnuts. They're still at it and have been adding to their website too.Go here (http://chestnut.cas.psu.edu) for more information than most people desire to know about the subject.
I should have known that you'd have info on this subject, SOG. The large dbh tree that you knew of, this was about 3 - 4 miles north of where I camped Saturday??? I knew of one that was just off of the trail in that general area, but that was years ago. I don't know if it survives.
The last time that PGC cut the trees along the dirt road between 183 and the old Ney's shelter site was about 6 - 7 years ago, I think. If there's any stump sprout, the youngsters should be visible by now. Check around Pine Spring (east and west of that location) sometime and let me know what you find.
The tree I mentioned still stands not far from PA 183 near the base of Blue Mountain in Schuylkill County. Trees now between PA 183 and the towers are possibly old enough to be throwing nuts.
I remember some trees that produced nuts at the scout camp and also along the PGC road enroute to Ney's 20 years ago or so.
Years ago when a fire burned from the scout camp almost to the A.T., chestnuts as well as blueberries seemed to benefit for some years from the fire. Others have reported the same response.
In those days I liked to hike the Eagle-Rutabaga Trail from the scout camp to the A.T. north to FDS then back down to the camp via the woods road. It was a good circuit which passed through the burn.
.................
Have you ever eaten pawpaws? Mine are ripening now. Good crop. Let me know if you want some. They're not the better cultivars, just from seeds.
shelterbuilder
09-24-2007, 19:36
...Years ago when a fire burned from the scout camp almost to the A.T., chestnuts as well as blueberries seemed to benefit for some years from the fire....
OH, NO..."Chestnuts roasting on an open fire....":eek:
NICKTHEGREEK
09-24-2007, 19:51
How big, NTG?
Large enough to fully shade the building 25 feet in front of them, maybe 50' tall, very broad expanse of limbs
shelterbuilder
09-24-2007, 20:00
Large enough to fully shade the building 25 feet in front of them, maybe 50' tall, very broad expanse of limbs
WOW!:cool: Does the American Chestnut Foundation know of their existence?
You sure they are Americans and not Asians or Europeans?
mweinstone
09-25-2007, 07:17
im sorry i dont have the time to read this whole thread, but does anyone know how to make horse chestnuts nonpoisonis? ive been longing for chestnuts i could pick myself instead of waiting each year for the few that go to market. since childhood i have felt saddened by the blight that killed my favorite tree on earth that contains my favorite food on earth. my fantasy is to find a blight free mature tree full of nuts and gorge myself a squrril belly full.best way to eat chestnuts,....in more butter than is leagaly allowed by the american heart foundation. a teaspoon of butter with each nut for starters. i need like 50 nuts and a stick of butter to get going. do you ever sit and break open horse chestnuts and stare at the meat and just go,...why?!,..why cant i eat you you stupid inbread cousin.
a few years ago several mature American Chestnut trees were found growing on a rocky, windswept ridge near Warm Springs, GA. The theory is that the micro-environment kept them dry and prevented the blight from affecting them.
The Chestnut folks grabbed some samples (or whatever mojo they work) to save the genes.
ChimneySpring
09-25-2007, 08:30
It's been said by local property owners that there are 2 or 3 reasonably large trees still alive on a ridge on the western side of Little North Mountain near Star Tannery, VA. My friend who's family has had property in that area for 70+ years says that they see younger/smaller trees from time to time but that they seem to die prematurely.
Anyone else here eat paw-paws? I've never tried them right from the tree. I must have 1,000 of those trees/bushes on my property.
OldStormcrow
09-25-2007, 08:55
Don't be confused with the similar looking asian chestnut, which is blight-resistant and domesticated, but slightly different genetically. You may see some of them around old homesites on the trail.
Alligator
09-25-2007, 09:55
Since it was likely thought to be a lost cause anyway, all the trees that could be cut were. Had the trees that appeared to be healthy were saved, they could have crossed potentially with other resistant trees once those not resistant were eliminated.
It may be true of chestnuts that root-collar sprouts are more vigorous than those from roots, but are not as apt to be produced by older trees. Following that line of thought, those individuals to which you refer were lost as a breeding population if not set back significantly.
Have I grasped your point?Yes. Given the virulity of the blight, IMO it was an honest mistake. But something to think about given some of the other invasive threats to various tree species.
Older trees do tend to stump sprout less. Offhand I am not sure of the level of root sprouting of American chestnuts.
Plus, consider that even with sprouts, anyone tending the stand is going to look at the sprout as small value and not favor it much.
Ron Haven
09-25-2007, 16:23
Yes. Given the virulity of the blight, IMO it was an honest mistake. But something to think about given some of the other invasive threats to various tree species.
Older trees do tend to stump sprout less. Offhand I am not sure of the level of root sprouting of American chestnuts.
Plus, consider that even with sprouts, anyone tending the stand is going to look at the sprout as small value and not favor it much.There was a lot to do with the worms which drilled in the American Chestnut Trees that cause the trees to be sick was what caused the blight to kill them wasnt it?
Also in the south today there is a pine bettle killing all of the big native hem locks and white pine.I wonder if the forest service will push roads in to salvage the wood from them. :confused:
Alligator
09-25-2007, 16:59
There was a lot to do with the worms which drilled in the American Chestnut Trees that cause the trees to be sick was what caused the blight to kill them wasnt it?
Also in the south today there is a pine bettle killing all of the big native hem locks and white pine.I wonder if the forest service will push roads in to salvage the wood from them. :confused:I don't really know whether worms magnified the blight (sounds plausible), but I don't recall them being the primary vector.
Hemlock is a pretty low value species, so I wouldn't worry too much there. There might be some emphasis to reduce fire though, as hemlock can occur in pure hemlock stands.
It would be my opinion but I would think that most forests in the south and east would already have roads in place, as most of these forests have been cut a couple of times already.
troglobil
09-25-2007, 17:12
I believe what Ron is talking about is the wooly adelgid. The hemlock may not have much value as a lumber species, but it covers quite a bit of the forest in the smokies. A lot of it in steep terrain where the death of these trees will ultimately result in massive amount of fuel for fires, erosion of the slopes, and an open dinner invitation to a host of other insects.
THey are not a problem only in the south, up in Ohio near my mom's home, it is illegal to transport firewood across some county lines due to the wooly adelgid.
im sorry i dont have the time to read this whole thread, but does anyone know how to make horse chestnuts nonpoisonis? ive been longing for chestnuts i could pick myself instead of waiting each year for the few that go to market. since childhood i have felt saddened by the blight that killed my favorite tree on earth that contains my favorite food on earth. my fantasy is to find a blight free mature tree full of nuts and gorge myself a squrril belly full.best way to eat chestnuts,....in more butter than is leagaly allowed by the american heart foundation. a teaspoon of butter with each nut for starters. i need like 50 nuts and a stick of butter to get going. do you ever sit and break open horse chestnuts and stare at the meat and just go,...why?!,..why cant i eat you you stupid inbread cousin.
Same surname, but different families. A European native, horse-chestnut belongs to Hippocastanaceae also known as the horse-chestnut family. North American natives of the genus Aesculus called buckeyes grow in Ohio among other places.
Chestnuts belong to Fagaceaceae also known as the beech family which includes the various oak species.
Alligator
09-25-2007, 17:44
I wasn't sure if he was bringing up southern pine beetle or not also.
Dollars are what's going to motivate loggers to go in and cut though, and for such a low value species on steep slopes I really don't see much cutting occurring.
shelterbuilder
09-25-2007, 18:51
im sorry i dont have the time to read this whole thread, but does anyone know how to make horse chestnuts nonpoisonis? ive been longing for chestnuts i could pick myself instead of waiting each year for the few that go to market. since childhood i have felt saddened by the blight that killed my favorite tree on earth that contains my favorite food on earth. my fantasy is to find a blight free mature tree full of nuts and gorge myself a squrril belly full.best way to eat chestnuts,....in more butter than is leagaly allowed by the american heart foundation. a teaspoon of butter with each nut for starters. i need like 50 nuts and a stick of butter to get going. do you ever sit and break open horse chestnuts and stare at the meat and just go,...why?!,..why cant i eat you you stupid inbread cousin.
Matthewski,
Don't go eating any horse chestnuts - with some of the chemicals they contain, they are nothing to "horse" around with. Blood thinners, anti-coagulants, etc., you'll bleed to death internally before you know what's happening.:( :(
Route Step
09-25-2007, 20:51
I never heard of worms spreading or magnifing the blight. I was told it was wood peckers digging into the dead wood looking for insects. Then, with the spores on their bills and feet the birds would fly near of far and spread the blight to uninfective trees.
There is an eight inch tree about a ten minute walk north of Thornton Gap in Va. Just to the left on the AT. I went to look at it last week, as part of a three day hike. I wanted to collect some nuts but didn't see any burrs. The top branches were dead on it. Last year I saw some old burrs on the ground and thought I might find some fresh ones.
The ACF know of some truely large trees in Tennessee and are using them along with other trees to bring back the American Chestnut.
Alligator
09-26-2007, 09:40
These two articles mention animals and air as transports for the disease.
http://www.forestpathology.org/dis_chestnut.html
http://www.apsnet.org/online/feature/chestnut/
Anyone else here eat paw-paws? I've never tried them right from the tree. I must have 1,000 of those trees/bushes on my property.
Pawpaws! I'm the local pawpaw nut. I'm always looking for them. There are some HUGE pawpaw trees in the forest ont he south side of the river from Harpers Ferry. RIGHT NOW is the time the Paw paws are ripe. Get them while they're getting little black spots on them.
Don't eat the seeds.
mmmmmm.
ChimneySpring
09-26-2007, 13:56
I cut one open that I found over the weekend and saw the seeds. The fruit had a midly sweet aroma to it, but I didn't take a chance on eating it. Maybe I'll go out and grab some more and try them. There are many, many small size trees close by but I never saw fruit on any of them. This tree was about 12 feet tall and had some nice size pieces near the top.
Re: chestnuts and blight spreading, I also read that the spores were transported by loggers via their axes, equipment and shoes. Ironic that some steps they were taking to try and stem the spread (cutting down trees before they were totally dead) may have actually contribute to the expansion of the disease.
TN_Hiker
09-26-2007, 14:06
I believe what Ron is talking about is the wooly adelgid. The hemlock may not have much value as a lumber species, but it covers quite a bit of the forest in the smokies. A lot of it in steep terrain where the death of these trees will ultimately result in massive amount of fuel for fires, erosion of the slopes, and an open dinner invitation to a host of other insects.
The wooly adelgid is what the Forest Service is blaming the hemlock's demise on. However, several folks within the TN Environmental Council feel the wooly adelgid is not the root cause. They believe the acid rain has weakened the immune system of the hemlocks thus letting the wooly adelgid compromise the hemlocks. The acid rain is the real problem and the wooly adelgid is a side effect.
Alligator
09-26-2007, 14:27
The wooly adelgid is what the Forest Service is blaming the hemlock's demise on. However, several folks within the TN Environmental Council feel the wooly adelgid is not the root cause. They believe the acid rain has weakened the immune system of the hemlocks thus letting the wooly adelgid compromise the hemlocks. The acid rain is the real problem and the wooly adelgid is a side effect.It's often the case that there are multiple factors affecting tree mortality. Gypsy moths don't always kill the trees during an outbreak. The trees get severely stressed from the lost foliage, then some other factor tips them over the edge, like a drought.
Sometimes it's difficult to untangle which factor is primary and which is secondary.
This DCNR link (http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/oldgrowth/index.aspx) may be somewhat out-of-place here, but likely those most interested in it would click on this thread and I'm not sure it warrants a thread of it's own.
This DCNR link (http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/oldgrowth/index.aspx) .
Someone on another thread jokingly suggested that if you've been on the PA A.T. you've hiked PA - but if you hike the Mid State Trail you pass sites C1, C2, D1, D3, D4, and D5, and the PA A.T. passes - none. :)
Someone on another thread jokingly suggested that if you've been on the PA A.T. you've hiked PA - but if you hike the Mid State Trail you pass sites C1, C2, D1, D3, D4, and D5, and the PA A.T. passes - none. :)
Snapshot, my young hiking companion from last year, had hiked many non-AT trails in PA before he started SOBO. At one point he remarked to me that, without exception, they had been lovely, creekbottom walks. He thought the AT was going to be mostly like that, with the occasional mountain peak thrown in. It didn't turn out to be quite like that.:D
The wooly adelgid is what the Forest Service is blaming the hemlock's demise on. However, several folks within the TN Environmental Council feel the wooly adelgid is not the root cause. They believe the acid rain has weakened the immune system of the hemlocks thus letting the wooly adelgid compromise the hemlocks. The acid rain is the real problem and the wooly adelgid is a side effect.
Exactly. I remember asking that question of some ranger or ridge runner up in the Whites, many years ago. I got the same answer, but it didn't satisfy. Both organisms (hemlocks, adelgids) have been around for a while. Something had to change to give the adelgids an advantage.
Alligator
10-02-2007, 09:57
Terrapin, the hemlock woolly adelgid is an introduced pest. It is estimated that it hit the east coast in the 1950s. A map of the spread of the infestation can be found here (http://www.na.fs.fed.us/fhp/hwa/maps/hwa_hist2.jpg).
Someone on another thread jokingly suggested that if you've been on the PA A.T. you've hiked PA - but if you hike the Mid State Trail you pass sites C1, C2, D1, D3, D4, and D5, and the PA A.T. passes - none. :)
Don't mind him. Every time I post on the virtues of the PA A.T., he posts that people who hike the PA A.T. don't know anything about PA hiking and shouldn't judge it based upon the PA A.T.;)
Don't mind him. Every time I post on the virtues of the PA A.T., he posts that people who hike the PA A.T. don't know anything about PA hiking and shouldn't judge it based upon the PA A.T.;)
OK, you will *not* pass The Doyle on other PA trails, happy now! :p
Not entirely, but I'll take what I comes my way.:rolleyes: It's also farther to Esther's for grits.;)