A new $300.00 challenge

[Bootstrap]

Most of my excess weight seems to be in the basics - my tent, my sleeping pad, and my backpack. I think I could lose 10 pounds on those three components alone. You alcohol stove people would say my MSR Whisperlite is also too heavy (and yes, I'm playing with the cat stove in my spare time). The rest of what I carry isn't all that different from what I see on the lists of you ultralighters. I can afford $300.00 to upgrade.

In one way this is easier than the other $300 challenge, because I already have a complete set of equipment, most of it lightweight. In one way it's harder - I'm looking for durable equipment that meets a lot of criteria. (Maybe that's why I carry too many pounds!)

General: Most of my backpacking is September - June, in North Carolina or Virginia, often in the mountains. I may also hike in places where there are lots of bugs (the Croatan comes to mind).

Shelter: Tent for two, backpacks need to be covered somehow (either in the tent or with a backpack cover hanging from a tree is fine). Needs to be comfortable at 33 degrees with pouring rain and wind (think Grassy Ridge Bald on the wrong weekend). Need some way to keep the bugs out. I'm used to a traditional tent with all the bells and whistles and pounds. I've never used a bivy sack, tarp, tarptent, or such, and I'm not sure which conditions they are suited to. *But* extra points for being able to see the stars and be in the open when conditions permit. Extra points for having a tarp 4-6 people can gather under and cook in if I'm with a larger group and it's raining. I think I'm looking for something 3 pounds or under, it's probably not worth buying another tent unless I save some real weight here. Sure, I'd love 1 pound, but only if it's gonna be good under the conditions described above. And durability matters, since I'm a cheapskate.

Backpack: Easy to organize (I hate losing things in my pack). Lots of room. Can carry 35-40 pounds if I have to. Easy to pull out a map or a water bottle or a snack without taking the pack off. Easy to pack/unpack. I need to know the waterproof story if I wind up in pouring rain.

Sleeping pad: Well suited to the above backpack and shelter. Open to suggestions.

What do y'all suggest?

Jonathan

[Captn]

Of course, I don't think we can get any less expensive than Grandma Gatewood's list ...

"Instead of an expensive parka,she wore a rain cape which she also used as a ground cloth. Instead of aheavy tent, she carried a plastic shower curtain for shelter. Instead of asleeping bag, she used an army blanket. The only remaining items shecarried were a sweater, jacket, flashlight, Swiss Army knife, a small pot,first-aid supplies, safety pins, needle and thread, soap, and a towel."

Outdoor Products Poncho (rain gear and ground cloth) $20
Plastic Shower curtain liner, cord, and aluminum stakes (Shelter) $10
US military wool blanket surplus $30
Sweater (walmart) $20
Jacket (walmart) $20
Flashlight (walmart) $5
Swiss army knife (walmart) $15
Small Pot (walmart grease pot) $7
first aid supplies, safety pins, needle and thread, soap, and a towel (all from home and all free)

I'd also throw in a bit of cordage and a food bag, matches, as well as a walmart bookbag for, say ...... $30

All for around $130 ....

Total:

[Bootstrap]

But right now, I'm mostly interested in shedding weight on my tent, my sleeping pad, and my backpack. I already have the rest. I think I could lose 10 pounds on those three components alone, but I want to make sure my requirements are met. I don't mind spending up to $300.00 to get it right.

Jonathan

[Alligator]

What do you have now and how much do they weigh?

[Bootstrap]

I'm starting with these as my Big Four:

1. Tent (REI Half Dome 2): 5 lbs. 11 oz. - a 2 pound replacement would shave 3 pounds 11 oz from this, which would be a big win. But remember that I care about 35 degree extended downpours and bugs, too ... warm and dry matters to me.

2. Sleeping bag (Marmot Sawtooth): 2 lbs. 14 oz. - this is a keeper, I think.

3. Sleeping Pad (REI): 2 lbs. 8 oz. - I could lose perhaps 1-1 1/2 pounds here with a foam pad, this is the easy one.

4. Backpack (Gregory Pingora): 5 lbs. 8 oz. There must be a lighter solution. Extra points if I can find one at REI, where I have some free money to spend.

I guess I can at least drop 6+ pounds on this combination ... 10 would be nice. Can I do that for $300.00, with gear that's as good in other respects?

Jonathan

[Captn]

I'm starting with these as my Big Four:

1. Tent (REI Half Dome 2): 5 lbs. 11 oz. - a 2 pound replacement would shave 3 pounds 11 oz from this, which would be a big win. But remember that I care about 35 degree extended downpours and bugs, too ... warm and dry matters to me.

2. Sleeping bag (Marmot Sawtooth): 2 lbs. 14 oz. - this is a keeper, I think.

3. Sleeping Pad (REI): 2 lbs. 8 oz. - I could lose perhaps 1-1 1/2 pounds here with a foam pad, this is the easy one.

4. Backpack (Gregory Pingora): 5 lbs. 8 oz. There must be a lighter solution. Extra points if I can find one at REI, where I have some free money to spend.

I guess I can at least drop 6+ pounds on this combination ... 10 would be nice. Can I do that for $300.00, with gear that's as good in other respects?

Jonathan

Backpack ..... you can switch to a Granite Gear Vapor Trail for 2 lbs and save 3 lbs 8 oz. Other options would be a ULA-Equipment pack.

Sleeping Pad .... switch to a gossamer gear nightlight 3/4 foam pad and save 2 lbs. (www.gossamergear.com (http://www.gossamergear.com))

Change out your tent stakes from the stock stakes to Gossamer Gear, or other brand of Titanium stakes and save between a quarter and a half pound over steel stakes. Cut the tags and the extra straps off the tent body and switch your guy lines out from stock to spectra line.

This is under $200 and it saves almost 6 pounds without even touching your tent or your sleeping bag.

I'd bet money that you could cut another 2 pounds out of your kitchen and/or your clothes without much trouble by switching to an acohol stove and a snow peak 600 single wall mug for a pot, even more if your willing to go to a beer can pot, and leaving one extra change of clothes at home (but take the extra socks) .....

Leave the Water Filter at home and pack Aquamira drops and save another 3/4 lb ..... so, thats pushing 9 lbs for less than $200.

To replace the tent or the bag would require more than $100, and frankly, I would suggest that you save your money and buy quality here, like a Western Mountaineering bag and a Squires double rainbow Tarptent, but these would set you back $500 or so all alone.

They would cut your weight by another 4 lbs, but as you say ... warm and dry are important so don't skimp when you upgrade.


Just some thoughts ....

[NICKTHEGREEK]

Of course, I don't think we can get any less expensive than Grandma Gatewood's list ...

"Instead of an expensive parka,she wore a rain cape which she also used as a ground cloth. Instead of aheavy tent, she carried a plastic shower curtain for shelter. Instead of asleeping bag, she used an army blanket. The only remaining items shecarried were a sweater, jacket, flashlight, Swiss Army knife, a small pot,first-aid supplies, safety pins, needle and thread, soap, and a towel."

Outdoor Products Poncho (rain gear and ground cloth) $20
Plastic Shower curtain liner, cord, and aluminum stakes (Shelter) $10
US military wool blanket surplus $30
Sweater (walmart) $20
Jacket (walmart) $20
Flashlight (walmart) $5
Swiss army knife (walmart) $15
Small Pot (walmart grease pot) $7
first aid supplies, safety pins, needle and thread, soap, and a towel (all from home and all free)

I'd also throw in a bit of cordage and a food bag, matches, as well as a walmart bookbag for, say ...... $30

All for around $130 ....

Total:


What is with the fixation on Walmart? You can buy cheap Chinese junk anywhere.

[Alligator]

Carrying 35-40 lbs (OP) would be unpleasant in the Vapor Trail, and the side pockets are not good for grabbing a water bottle. Move up to a heavier load bearing Granite Gear pack maybe I don't know the side pocket configurations. Lots of room=how big?

Switching to a foam pad would save a lot of money.

Having space for 4-6 people will require a separate tarp if you go the tent option. An 8X10 tarp weighs 13 oz split 4 ways is just a little weight.

I'd bring a tarp out solo for those conditions (OP), but would take the weight penalty and bring a tent if two people. You have my buddy's tent actually and we'd take that.

You could probably lose the 10 lbs easy with an overall makeover, as Captn is showing you, and under $300.

[Captn]

What is with the fixation on Walmart? You can buy cheap Chinese junk anywhere.


<Musac playing in the background while soul less zombie shoppers mill aimlessly about in front of the Big Blue sign>

MUST Nooooot Shooop Anywhere but Wallllllllmart

MUST Nooooot Shoooop Anywhere but Wallllllmart ...

<SLAP!>

Wow ..... have I been asleep long? I can't seem to remember anything after I went grocerieshopping two weeks ago .....

[Captn]

Carrying 35-40 lbs (OP) would be unpleasant in the Vapor Trail, and the side pockets are not good for grabbing a water bottle. Move up to a heavier load bearing Granite Gear pack maybe I don't know the side pocket configurations. Lots of room=how big?



I was thinking (perhaps mistakenly) that if he cut 10 lbs out his load range would drop to 25 to 30 lbs ....

A Granite gear Nimbus Ozone might be better .....

[Bootstrap]

Backpack ..... you can switch to a Granite Gear Vapor Trail for 2 lbs and save 3 lbs 8 oz. Other options would be a ULA-Equipment pack.

Sleeping Pad .... switch to a gossamer gear nightlight 3/4 foam pad and save 2 lbs. (www.gossamergear.com (http://www.gossamergear.com))

Change out your tent stakes from the stock stakes to Gossamer Gear, or other brand of Titanium stakes and save between a quarter and a half pound over steel stakes. Cut the tags and the extra straps off the tent body and switch your guy lines out from stock to spectra line.

This is under $200 and it saves almost 6 pounds without even touching your tent or your sleeping bag.

I'm also looking into buying a Squall 2 or a Rainbow used, at prices that would fit into my budget. If one of these two guys accepts my offer, that will shave at least 3 lbs 3 oz for a similar price to replacing the pack.

Nice tips on lightening up the tent.


I'd bet money that you could cut another 2 pounds out of your kitchen and/or your clothes without much trouble by switching to an acohol stove and a snow peak 600 single wall mug for a pot, even more if your willing to go to a beer can pot, and leaving one extra change of clothes at home (but take the extra socks) .....

Yeah, I'd have to give up my beloved Whisperlite. I'm experimenting with a Supercat, which I started making today after opening up the right sized can of salmon, but I expect that when I'm cooking for 2-5 people, I'll prefer the Whisperlite. I don't bring an extra change of clothes for a long weekend, but I do carry rain pants and other things you UL types don't typically carry.


Leave the Water Filter at home and pack Aquamira drops and save another 3/4 lb ..... so, thats pushing 9 lbs for less than $200.

I'm ignorant here - would some chlorine beach in a little bottle work as well as the Aquamira drops? (I also admit that I like the unaltered taste I get with my fliter ...)


To replace the tent or the bag would require more than $100, and frankly, I would suggest that you save your money and buy quality here, like a Western Mountaineering bag and a Squires double rainbow Tarptent, but these would set you back $500 or so all alone.

Would a Western Mountaineering bag take me down to 20 degrees? My current bag isn't *that* heavy ...


as you say ... warm and dry are important so don't skimp when you upgrade.

Trust me, I won't ...


Just some thoughts ....

And good ones!

Jonathan

[Bootstrap]

Carrying 35-40 lbs (OP) would be unpleasant in the Vapor Trail, and the side pockets are not good for grabbing a water bottle. Move up to a heavier load bearing Granite Gear pack maybe I don't know the side pocket configurations. Lots of room=how big?

3800 square inches would certainly do it for me. My current pack has 3300, and I find that a little tight.


Switching to a foam pad would save a lot of money.

That's really a cheap change that saves a lot, isn't it!


Having space for 4-6 people will require a separate tarp if you go the tent option. An 8X10 tarp weighs 13 oz split 4 ways is just a little weight.

I suspect such a tarp is in my future.


I'd bring a tarp out solo for those conditions (OP), but would take the weight penalty and bring a tent if two people. You have my buddy's tent actually and we'd take that.

So a solo tarp works well enough in heavy rain and wind? I might try that. In most cases, though, there are at least 2 of us.


You could probably lose the 10 lbs easy with an overall makeover, as Captn is showing you, and under $300.

I do think that much of the weight I have to lose is in these basics, though. I don't carry a lot of clothes. I might lose 2 pounds off of kitchen gear. I don't carry a lot else besides food and water and fuel. I *do* carry too much water, but that's come in handy at times (like when a tired companion just can't make it to the next water source, and we have to set up camp before getting that water.)

Thanks!

Jonathan

[Captn]

Yeah, I'd have to give up my beloved Whisperlite. I'm experimenting with a Supercat, which I started making today after opening up the right sized can of salmon, but I expect that when I'm cooking for 2-5 people, I'll prefer the Whisperlite. I don't bring an extra change of clothes for a long weekend, but I do carry rain pants and other things you UL types don't typically carry.
Jonathan

I carry a Jetboil when I've got a group of people going, and we use freeze dried or freezer bag meals. The Wisperlight is the bomb in cold weather, but the Jet works well and saves a lot of weight in carrying fuel.

I have a Whitebox alcohol stove and I also have a snowpeak Gigapower canister stove as well. I also have an old Seva 123. So far, the Alcohol stove wins out on most short solo trips and the Jet boil for most others. The Gigapower works well for week long solo trips as I typically get 18 to 21 burns, boiling 2 cups per burn, per canister.



I'm ignorant here - would some chlorine beach in a little bottle work as well as the Aquamira drops? (I also admit that I like the unaltered taste I get with my fliter ...)
Jonathan

Bleach will certainly take care of Viruses and most baddies, but there's controversy on whether or not it will kill ALL the baddies. If I'm drinking from a spring I don't concern myself too much with treatment, however, if I'm concerned enough about a water source to treat the water, then I want the best. Aquamira produces Clorine Dioxide, the same chemical that is used to treat most residential water supplies in the United States. If it's good enough for my home water then it's good enough for my trail water too is my thought.



Would a Western Mountaineering bag take me down to 20 degrees? My current bag isn't *that* heavy ...
Jonathan

Most manufacturers sell at least one bag that will go to 20. Western Mountaineering just happens to make one of the nicest bags on the market, IMO. Their ultralight bag is 1 lb 14 oz and will go below 20, from what I hear. I use a quilt myself.

[Alligator]

You can get two under an 8X10 tarp, but it can be close when it rains IMO.

You keep mentioning more than one person. That changes the equation, a lot if there are three of you. Dividing a filter, stove or tent between 2-3 people often is close to some solo options.

If you want something really light for 2-4 people, a pyramid tent works very nice. I have a Black Diamond MegaLight Tent. They are about $200, although I got mine on EBay for $149.

If you can sew, you could make a tarptent for 2 people.

[LIhikers]

My wife and I saved about 4 pounds this year by switch from A Sierra Designs, free standing, tent to a Tarptend Rainshadow and in the near future I'll be replacing my Marrmot sleeping bag that weighs 3.5 pounds with a Montbell that's listed at 1.75 pounds. That'll be a savings of over 5 pounds that I carry but it's going to cost me dearly $$$$$

[Uncle Silly]

You can get two under an 8X10 tarp, but it can be close when it rains IMO.
(snip)
If you can sew, you could make a tarptent for 2 people.

If you're thinking solo, go for an 8x10 tarp; if you're thinking more, a larger tarp (10x12 or even 12x14) gives you that space. I've got an Integral Designs SilShelter that's designed to be spacious enough for 2; it's definitely roomy for just me + dog + gear. No trouble with heavy rains & winds if you've pitched it right. Integral Designs also has a SilTarp 3 product, a 10x12 tarp that they claim will fit 4-5... that sounds optimistic, but they're probably not counting gear in that.

I'm a big fan of tarp camping; they're super light and very flexible. You do have to consider bugs tho. Alligator's right in that you can make your own DIY tarp or tarptent that would fit as many as you need -- for much cheaper than buying a pre-made product. You can even sew in bugnetting to deal with the insects.

[SGT Rock]

I'd recommend posting your entire gear list and not just your big 4. I know from my efforts to lighten up from my old monster loads to what I carry now a lot of my savings came from making every little do-dad in my pack more weight efficient and cutting some redundant items. That old saying ever ounce counts ain't a bunch of BS. I look back at some of the "miscellaneous" stuff I use to carry only a few years ago and wonder what I was thinking then.

[saimyoji]

Something to keep in mind: when figuring out your base weight, how much a new pack will carry comfortably....remember to subtract the weight of the pack itself. If your pack weighs 5lbs, giving you a base-weight of 35lbs, switching to a vapor trail means you'll be putting only 30lbs in the pack, not 35lbs.

Just sayin'.

[Bootstrap]

Something to keep in mind: when figuring out your base weight, how much a new pack will carry comfortably....remember to subtract the weight of the pack itself. If your pack weighs 5lbs, giving you a base-weight of 35lbs, switching to a vapor trail means you'll be putting only 30lbs in the pack, not 35lbs.

Just sayin'.

True.

My main concern remains being able to offload weight from other people if we need to make time or if someone's having difficulty. I'd like a little extra room and carrying capacity for that.

Jonathan

[Alligator]

Something to keep in mind: when figuring out your base weight, how much a new pack will carry comfortably....remember to subtract the weight of the pack itself. If your pack weighs 5lbs, giving you a base-weight of 35lbs, switching to a vapor trail means you'll be putting only 30lbs in the pack, not 35lbs.

Just sayin'.That's a good point. I think my vapor trail is 2 lbs though.

[Appalachian Tater]

People with Vapor Trails may have a hard time next summer if they have to carry a lot of water.

[Bootstrap]

FWIW, I generally carry 2-3 liters of water, and 2 1/2 pounds of food per person per full day on the trail. I also carry 1/2 cup of white gas per day, which is always more than I need ;->

So that's an additional 15 pounds right there on a 3 day trip.

Jonathan

[Appalachian Tater]

Not trying to hijack the thread but I personally think the comfort and greater carrying capacity of the Nimbus Ozone is worth the extra weight and money. When the Vapor Trail was $100 it was hard to beat.

[bigcranky]

The Equinox 10x12-foot silnylon tarp is $85 at Campmor. It will easily sleep two or three people with all your gear under cover, or serve as a hanging-out spot for a group.

http://tinyurl.com/2l37mq

You can make a mesh inner tent using noseeum mesh and silnylon which will hang from inside the tarp when pitched. This should cost under $40. (Come on, somebody you know has a sewing machine.)

The Six Moon Designs Starlite pack is less than 30 ounces with the two optional aluminum stays, carries 35 pounds quite well, has great organization, and costs $175 with the stays. I've been using mine for three years and it's been the best lightweight pack for LD hiking that I've tried.

http://tinyurl.com/3ch98x

There's your $300. You might spend an additional $30 on a 3/4-length Z rest pad and save a bunch of weight on your sleeping pad, but only in warmer weather.

[Bootstrap]

The Equinox 10x12-foot silnylon tarp is $85 at Campmor. It will easily sleep two or three people with all your gear under cover, or serve as a hanging-out spot for a group.

Would you be comfortable using a tarp rather than a tent in just about any weather, including 35 degrees and pouring rain and wind? I assume that the wind is more of an issue, and that you're not as warm. How do you deal with that?



You can make a mesh inner tent using noseeum mesh and silnylon which will hang from inside the tarp when pitched. This should cost under $40. (Come on, somebody you know has a sewing machine.)

Probably, I sure don't. How much time is involved?


The Six Moon Designs Starlite pack is less than 30 ounces with the two optional aluminum stays, carries 35 pounds quite well, has great organization, and costs $175 with the stays. I've been using mine for three years and it's been the best lightweight pack for LD hiking that I've tried.

Hey, that looks really nice! I like all the pockets ...


You might spend an additional $30 on a 3/4-length Z rest pad and save a bunch of weight on your sleeping pad, but only in warmer weather.

OK, that "only in warmer weather" warning is good to know, I need to be prepared down to 20 degrees or so.

Jonathan

[Bootstrap]

I'd recommend posting your entire gear list and not just your big 4. I know from my efforts to lighten up from my old monster loads to what I carry now a lot of my savings came from making every little do-dad in my pack more weight efficient and cutting some redundant items.

On this last 3-day trip, I took the following:

Clothing

- Synthetic t-shirt
- REI hiking shirt, long sleeved, with collar
- Polyester fleece top (freebie from a former employer)
- Marmot jacket
- Bathing suit (used as hiking shorts / underwear)
- Tights
- Hiking pants
- Rain pants
- Fleece hat for warmth
- Floppy hat for sun protection
- 3 pairs hiking socks

Cooking

- MSR Whisperlite
- Fuel bottle with 20 oz white gas for 2 for 3 days
- Bugaboo cook kit (2 pots)
- Plastic bowl and cup
- Lexan spork
- Spoon spatula, handle cut short

First aid
- Ibuprofin
- Bandaids
- Spenco blister packs (4)
- Antibiotic ointment

Misc. Gear
- Jacknife (lightweight Gerber)
- Headlamp (Ray-O-Vac)
- Topo map
- Polaris compass
- Guidebook
- Thermal emergency blanket - doubles as ground cloth
- Loud whistle
- Orange shovel
- Purell Hand Sanitizer

Food
- 2 1/2 pounds per person per day, including snacks

Water
- 2 Nalgenes
- 1 MSR dromedary
- 1 Camelback

(I was worried about the drought, I generally carried 2-3 liters.)

The Big Four



1. Tent (REI Half Dome 2): 5 lbs. 11 oz.
2. Sleeping bag (Marmot Sawtooth): 2 lbs. 14 oz.
3. Sleeping Pad (REI): 2 lbs. 8 oz.
4. Backpack (Gregory Pingora): 5 lbs. 8 oz.


That's the list!

Jonathan

[SGT Rock]

Cool, I'll start working with that.


On this last 3-day trip, I took the following:

Clothing

- Synthetic t-shirt
- REI hiking shirt, long sleeved, with collar
- Polyester fleece top (freebie from a former employer)
- Marmot jacket
- Bathing suit (used as hiking shorts / underwear)
- Tights
- Hiking pants
- Rain pants
Maybe do without both hiking pants and rain pants. If you hike in the shorts most of the time and put on pants in camp or when it rains - one pair can do it. A pair of pants can be anywhere from 1/2 pound to 1 pound.


- Fleece hat for warmth
- Floppy hat for sun protection
- 3 pairs hiking socks

Cooking

- MSR Whisperlite
- Fuel bottle with 20 oz white gas for 2 for 3 days
WOW! OK man, there are a lot of other options that would save you a ton of weight here. That stove is 14 ounces. The bottle is 4.3 ounces, and the fuel is about 13 ounces. So your whole set up there is almost 2 pounds. And that is for a 2-3 day trip.

You could go with an alcohol stove for free and reduce that to about a 2 ounce stove and get a soda bottle for fuel and reduce that to 1 ounce for the bottle. Then, even if you eat two hot meals a day for three days - you only need about 6 ounces of fuel. But you could take extra and fille up an 12 ounce soda bottle which would weigh about 10 ounces in fuel - so now you have taken your stove from near 2 pounds to less than 1. If you play around and look at other options you can save even more. My set up for this sort of hike would weigh in at 2 ounce for stove and fuel bottle and 4 ounces for fuel - for 6 total ounces - and you could build that for basically FREE. So now we have reduced you by at least 1.5 pounds without spending money.


- Bugaboo cook kit (2 pots)
Wow, another big weight saver here. If I remember right this is two pots with lids that can be frying pans and include a pot lifter. Total weight for the set is 25.2 if this is the set I am thinking of.

You can make an easy weight reduction here and carry just the small pot. Make an aluminum foil lid and use a bandanna to grab the pot thus leaving the lifter at home. Total weight should be about 6.7 ounces for the bandanna, pot, and lid. Probably doesn't cost you anything and saves you over a pound. that is over 2.5 pounds down and nothing spent yet.


- Plastic bowl and cup
- Lexan spork
- Spoon spatula, handle cut short

If you are cooking out of your pot - you can eat from it too. Lose the bowl and save a few ounces. You can also probably do without a spatula. I normally use my knife and spork instead. Lose a couple more ounces. This also reduces the amount of dishes you need to wash.


First aid
- Ibuprofin
- Bandaids
- Spenco blister packs (4)
- Antibiotic ointment

Misc. Gear
- Jacknife (lightweight Gerber)
- Headlamp (Ray-O-Vac)
- Topo map
- Polaris compass
- Guidebook
- Thermal emergency blanket - doubles as ground cloth
- Loud whistle
- Orange shovel
- Purell Hand Sanitizer
It is just my experience, but whistles are not very effective when you are trying to get found during a rescue. Bang on your pot with a rock and it travels better and can't be mistaken for anything else. The trowel is something else I would leave behind. Sticks are everywhere.


Food
- 2 1/2 pounds per person per day, including snacks

Water
- 2 Nalgenes
- 1 MSR dromedary
- 1 Camelback
Try this: Get two Gatoraide quart bottles to replace the nalgens. That will cost you about $4, but they come with a drink - so it is cool. Those Nalgen weigh about 3.8 ounces each, and the Gatorade bottles weigh about half that yet have a wide enough opening they work well. I would only carry one instead of two, but it is your hike.

Next, get rid of the Camelbak. It is redundant. You can drink from the gatorade bottles, and haul water in the dromedary, so the camelbak is not needed. Depending on the size camelbak, that would save you 6-10 ounces. With these two changes you can save another 1/2 to 1 pound. But you did have to buy a bottle of Gatorade.



(I was worried about the drought, I generally carried 2-3 liters.)

The Big Four



That's the list!

Jonathan
On your big 4 - just some general ideas...

Pack - get a Moonbowgearskin - it costs about $150 and weighs about 24 ounces. Mine has worked for my average weight 20-30 pounds and has worked for hauling large loads (normally only for a day) up to 50 pounds.

Pad - get a cheap Wally World foam pad and trim it to work for you. It will cost you about $8.

Sleeping bag - I would stick with what you have for now. I would start saving and shopping around for a really cool bag that weighs about 2 pounds and is rated down to about 20F.

Tent. This is where you sort of bugger it up with your demands. You want a bug free zone, but by looking at your original question, it looks like you are not always camping when there are bugs. SOOOO. Try going with a tarp tent style design like the Etowah Survivor tarp (about $45 and about 8 ounces) for your shelter, then go get you a cheap Coolegan's bug net you can put under it when you go backpacking in buggy weather. It costs about $10 and weighs about 12 ounces.

Finally - you didn't list the weights of what you do carry. I have found over the years that by looking at the weight of an item, it no longer becomes "Plastic cup" it becomes that 8 ounce insulated mug that I could cut the weight in half if I paid it some attention. Get some postal scales and start weighing things. Things like first aid kits, books, and other items start meaning weight to you as soon as you weigh them. I was amazed at how much I was carrying in Zip-lock bags back in the day, now I make certain that everything that gets in my pack has been weighed and entered onto the spreadsheet to see how it affects pack weight.

[Bootstrap]

Maybe do without both hiking pants and rain pants. If you hike in the shorts most of the time and put on pants in camp or when it rains - one pair can do it. A pair of pants can be anywhere from 1/2 pound to 1 pound.

Good point. I'd probably keep the rain pants, at least if rain is at all likely, and ditch the hiking pants.


That stove is 14 ounces. The bottle is 4.3 ounces, and the fuel is about 13 ounces. So your whole set up there is almost 2 pounds. And that is for a 2-3 day trip.

I'm going to have to play with alcohol stoves at home, cooking the kind of things I cook in camp. I'm often cooking for 2-3 people, and some of the things I cook may not work well if I can't turn the heat down, but I could adjust what I eat.

I just made a Supercat stove yesterday, I'll start playing with it.


You can make an easy weight reduction here and carry just the small pot. Make an aluminum foil lid and use a bandanna to grab the pot thus leaving the lifter at home. Total weight should be about 6.7 ounces for the bandanna, pot, and lid. Probably doesn't cost you anything and saves you over a pound. that is over 2.5 pounds down and nothing spent yet.

That would work well for one, but probably not for two. The big pot is just the right size for 1 meal for 2 people. But I could easily take the big pot and leave the small one, as long as I'm not making quesadillas or pancakes.


If you are cooking out of your pot - you can eat from it too. Lose the bowl and save a few ounces.

This works if it's just me, but not if I'm cooking for 2-3.


You can also probably do without a spatula. I normally use my knife and spork instead. Lose a couple more ounces.

You know, using a cut-down spoon spatula has been really great, because I can keep the bottom of the pot really clean with it, and nothing burns. This is especially helpful when the flame is hotter than I might want. If nothing is stuck to the bottom, nothing burns. So this is one thing I'll keep and carry and wash ;->


The trowel is something else I would leave behind. Sticks are everywhere.

I'll try digging with sticks in a variety of soils and see how that works. I'll also weigh my trowell and see what it weighs ...


Try this: Get two Gatoraide quart bottles to replace the nalgens. That will cost you about $4, but they come with a drink - so it is cool. Those Nalgen weigh about 3.8 ounces each, and the Gatorade bottles weigh about half that yet have a wide enough opening they work well. I would only carry one instead of two, but it is your hike.

Yeah, one instead of two would be a much better approach. I do like a sturdy bottle of better grade plastic, but one is enough.


Next, get rid of the Camelbak. It is redundant.

Yeah.


Pack - get a Moonbowgearskin - it costs about $150 and weighs about 24 ounces. Mine has worked for my average weight 20-30 pounds and has worked for hauling large loads (normally only for a day) up to 50 pounds.

I was looking at these, and talked to the guy who makes them. But it sounds like they are now $185, $200.00 if you want the mesh back pocket. I *might* go that way, but that eats up a *lot* of the $300.00 I have to spend on this. It still might be worth it, and he seems to have a liberal return policy.

I'm also wondering whether I can get a basic backpack harness and make something like this myself. I know the devil is in the details and he's very experienced (I'm not), but the basic idea seems rather simple, if I could get the right backpack harness and do some sewing. Or am I deluding myself?


Pad - get a cheap Wally World foam pad and trim it to work for you. It will cost you about $8.

A foam pad of some kind seems like a definite win. I'm leaning toward the Therm-a-Rest RidgeRest right now, mostly because its R-value is 2.6, and the Wally World seems to weigh in at an R-value of 1.38. (My current REI Trekker has an R-value of 4.2.)


Sleeping bag - I would stick with what you have for now. I would start saving and shopping around for a really cool bag that weighs about 2 pounds and is rated down to about 20F.

OK, stupid question here. Isn't the weight of a bag basically the down? And isn't the down the measure of its insulation? In other words, with a reasonably good cover, wouldn't the weight be a direct reflection of the temperatures the bag can handle?

In my experience, a manufacturer's self-rating of the degrees a bag can handle is pretty much meaningless when comparing one brand to another. Is there any objective measurement to rely on for this?


Tent. This is where you sort of bugger it up with your demands. You want a bug free zone, but by looking at your original question, it looks like you are not always camping when there are bugs.

Fair enough. And frankly, when I'm in a buggy place, I'm probably canoeing or hiking in 3-5 miles or such, and I don't mind the weight of my existing tent. I've not been bothered by bugs in most places I tend to go.

Ticks are *rampant* in the Uwharries, during the season - what's the deal with ticks and bug nets? So far, I've only picked up ticks from walking through grass. I imagine that camping in tick-infested grass would also be an issue.


SOOOO. Try going with a tarp tent style design like the Etowah Survivor tarp (about $45 and about 8 ounces) for your shelter, then go get you a cheap Coolegan's bug net you can put under it when you go backpacking in buggy weather. It costs about $10 and weighs about 12 ounces.

So you'd say that a tarp and a groundcloth can handle rain and wind at 35 degrees reasonably well? Aesthetically, I'd sure like less in between me and nature than I typically have at night.


Get some postal scales and start weighing things.

Actually, I do that. I won't tell you what my first aid kit looked like before I started weighing it ;->


now I make certain that everything that gets in my pack has been weighed and entered onto the spreadsheet to see how it affects pack weight.

I'll start a spreadsheet - good tip.

Thanks!

Jonathan

[bigcranky]

OK, stupid question here. Isn't the weight of a bag basically the down? And isn't the down the measure of its insulation? In other words, with a reasonably good cover, wouldn't the weight be a direct reflection of the temperatures the bag can handle?


The weight of a down bag is mostly the fabric, the baffles, and the stitching. The ratio of down weight to total weight increases as the bag gets more down (and a colder temp rating). A 40-F bag from a top manufacturer might weigh 16 ounces and have only 6 ounces of down, while a 5-F bag might weigh 40 ounces and have 26 ounces of down. Also, cheaper down weighs more for the same loft -- so the best 800+ fill down is much lighter overall.

Yes, I am comfortable using a big tarp in 35-F weather when it's raining out. A couple of reasons:

It's easier to pitch in pouring rain than most tents;
It has a much larger covered area for cooking, hanging out, and sleeping,
I can keep all my gear under cover,
It's much lighter than any tent with anywhere near as much coverage.


A 10x12 foot silnylon tarp with stakes and lines weighs about 24 ounces, and gives you easily 80-90 square feet of covered space. Compare to a double-wall "2-person" tent with 35 square feet of coverage that weighs twice that (at a minimum).

The downsides of tarp camping in the winter are snow and cold. I carry a warmer sleeping bag and a breathable bivy cover, which do well in the cold. Snow is a different story. Yes, I've had a tarp (a 5x8 solo) in a blizzard, and yes, I survived, but it wasn't exactly comfortable. It's possible to do just fine with a tarp in winter conditions, if you choose your campsite very carefully and you really know what you're doing.

But your original request -- something big enough for 4-5 people to hang out and cook dinner in bad weather -- that's hard to do with any tent that weighs less than 10 pounds, especially in winter. Those giant bucky-dome tents (http://tinyurl.com/2b3kkp) from Mountain Hardwear might do, but they weigh a ton.

As for making your own inner bug tent, go buy Ray Jardine's Tarp Book (http://www.ray-way.com/index.htm), where he walks you through the steps needed to make your own tarp and inner tent. He also sells kits to make both items, and they aren't expensive.

Finally, using a tarp successfully requires a lot of practice. If you want to go the tarp route, I'd urge you to start using it in warmer weather before trusting it in the winter.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

My suggestions:
Campmor 20 degree down bag - mummy style (http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=86896) - $110 - 36 ozs --or --
Campmor 20 degree down bag - rectangular (http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=86908) - $120 - 40 ozs (mateable and can be used as a quilt)
Campmor 10 x 12 silnylon tarp (http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=88644) - $85 and will shelter a group - weighs 19 ozs
Cooagan hiker's bug net (http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=7899) - $29 - 5 ozs (you could make a better net with no-u-see-um mesh for less)
WalMart blue pad - $8 - about 8 to 10 ozs
Open Country 2 quart aluminum kettle with lid / plate (http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=13888) - $10 - 8 ozs
Super Cat alcohol stove (http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html) - cost of a 3 oz can of cat food - about 1 oz
20 oz soda bottle for alcohol fuel - cost of a soda - less than 1/2 oz
2 Gatorade or Powerade bottles - about $4 - about 1 oz each

Total cost for most expensive options is under $300

[joeyyyy]

Check out ULA, the most comfortable pack I have used and they are extremely light weight and Brian is very helpful when ordering. Personally I use the conduit it’s listed at 20 oz, 3200 ci, and $125. instead of Gatorade bottles I use the big slam type 1L soda or water bottles, yes their not that durable but I’m not playing soccer with them, also try a piece of floral wire for your pot you just need to drill a few holes

[quasarr]

some of the things I cook may not work well if I can't turn the heat down, but I could adjust what I eat.

You said you're using the Supercat stove, with that one you won't be able to adjust the heat. But there are plenty of stove designs that allow for "simmer attachments."

An alchohol stove is probably not your best bet for 3+ people, or boiling more than 3-4 cups of water. One advantage is that you can easily tell exactly how much fuel you have, and you can fill your bottle up with exactly the amount you're going to need.

Simmer link, also zenstoves is a great resource on alchohol stoves

http://zenstoves.net/Accessories.htm#BuildaSimmerAccessory


Ticks are *rampant* in the Uwharries, during the season - what's the deal with ticks and bug nets? So far, I've only picked up ticks from walking through grass. I imagine that camping in tick-infested grass would also be an issue.

Ticks don't "crawl" from place to place, instead they brush off on you, like you said in tall grass or bushes or whatever. So a bugnet doesn't keep ticks off anyway - ticks don't get you while you're sleeping, they get you while you're hiking! A ground cloth should be fine for protection against tick infested grass.

[ChadFromOhio]

You ever think about selling your old stuff? You could augment your $300 and
(possibly) get somone new into backpacking. If you were going to buy one thing, make it a book like Dan Ladigan's "Lighten Up." You'll realise that you don't need lighter stuff as much as you need less stuff (although lighter is still better). The lightest stuff is what you leave at home. If it's redundant & it dosen't hurt to omit it (i.e. first aid, etc.), then don't bring it. Buy your new pack last, & test it with ALL of your new gear in it: be sure to include the weight of food and water.) Who cares if pack "x" is a pound lighter than pack "y" if 31 pounds rocks and 30 lbs hurts? 2 pound packs aren't for people trying to make a 35 pound kit 32 pounds, they're for the guy trying to make a 22 pound pack 21 pounds. That being said, I'm a rucksack guy.

[pure_mahem]

if you use v shaped tent stakes or at least one of them you could switch your trowel for that if your really tied to it!

[Bootstrap]

Wow, another big weight saver here. If I remember right this is two pots with lids that can be frying pans and include a pot lifter. Total weight for the set is 25.2 if this is the set I am thinking of.

FWIW, I just weighed the two pots, and they weigh 14 ounces. Mine does not include lids (the small pot doubles as a lid). If you include the bag, the handle, the cup, and the plate, it comes out to 19 ounces:

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=13085849


You can make an easy weight reduction here and carry just the small pot. Make an aluminum foil lid and use a bandanna to grab the pot thus leaving the lifter at home. Total weight should be about 6.7 ounces for the bandanna, pot, and lid.

Yup - for solo camping, that's a big win. If I'm cooking for more than one, I'll probably continue to carry the two pots, or find something else non-stick that's big enough.

Jonathan

[Passionphish]

Have you looked at the northface Skarab 55? Its a 2.5 lbs (or so depending on size) pack that is remarkably rich in features and sturdy. Sturdy being the greatest advantage. It holds about 33-3400 cubic inches so I would guess it could safely hold 35 lbs. If you are cutting weight then this would not be hard to do. Its cheap compared to other options, comes with a pack cover, has two great pockets and a pack bag, and can be kept well organized. Its cheaper than the gregory Z-55 and a great fast and light pack. It will take a lot of your money. So not the answer to this particularly question. But it is an option if you find that you need to spend a little more than you have budgeted.

You could wing the pack maybe, if you bought some of your other gear like your pack from REI or EMS. That way you could return it and use the credit for the new pack! I hope this helps...

[SGT Rock]

I'm going to have to play with alcohol stoves at home, cooking the kind of things I cook in camp. I'm often cooking for 2-3 people, and some of the things I cook may not work well if I can't turn the heat down, but I could adjust what I eat.
Well if you are solo and boiling water for most meals - you will find that you don't need a lot of fuel, and you can save fuel by doing things like using a cozy instead of fuel to keep food warm. A good cozy can make a difference. When I hike with my family everyone carries their own pot (everyone has about a 0.75-0.9L pot) and alcohol stove. So, when it is multiple item meals, one stove and pot is for the rice, one stove and pan is for the meat, one stove and pot is for the tea, and the last stove and pot may not even get used. All these stoves togeher only weigh a total of <4 ounces. All of our pots are under 5 ounces. You just need a strategy for weight distribution and carrying your system based on how many are with you.


That would work well for one, but probably not for two. The big pot is just the right size for 1 meal for 2 people. But I could easily take the big pot and leave the small one, as long as I'm not making quesadillas or pancakes. Good idea. Decide your meal plan before leaving and then plan the cookware based on meals. FWIW I have made omlets in my bowl - the bottom is just as big as my solo frying pan was - just the sides are deeper. I no longer need the frying pan.


I'll try digging with sticks in a variety of soils and see how that works. I'll also weigh my trowell and see what it weighs ...
Try using a tent stake. There are tent stakes out there than have some beef to them that weigh about an ounce and you can even use it to hold your shelter down - multi use.


Yeah, one instead of two would be a much better approach. I do like a sturdy bottle of better grade plastic, but one is enough.
Try using a Gatorade bottle on one trip and take your nalgen too. You may find you are satisfied with the gatorade bottle just fine, or you may find you are not. But at least you will know if it suits your needs. I've been using the same one for a couple of years.


I was looking at these, and talked to the guy who makes them. But it sounds like they are now $185, $200.00 if you want the mesh back pocket. I *might* go that way, but that eats up a *lot* of the $300.00 I have to spend on this. It still might be worth it, and he seems to have a liberal return policy.
The price may have gone up. There are other ways to shake that nut like homemade, used gear, or look at other packs. I just love flexability it gives me.


I'm also wondering whether I can get a basic backpack harness and make something like this myself. I know the devil is in the details and he's very experienced (I'm not), but the basic idea seems rather simple, if I could get the right backpack harness and do some sewing. Or am I deluding myself?

No, you could probably do it.


A foam pad of some kind seems like a definite win. I'm leaning toward the Therm-a-Rest RidgeRest right now, mostly because its R-value is 2.6, and the Wally World seems to weigh in at an R-value of 1.38. (My current REI Trekker has an R-value of 4.2.)

You can always double layer a pad if you are going in colder weather.


OK, stupid question here. Isn't the weight of a bag basically the down? And isn't the down the measure of its insulation? In other words, with a reasonably good cover, wouldn't the weight be a direct reflection of the temperatures the bag can handle?
Well not really. Down bags are often more baffle and shell in weight than they are down (this is not always the case). The real measure IMO is loft. If you are getting 2" of loft then you are probably good.


In my experience, a manufacturer's self-rating of the degrees a bag can handle is pretty much meaningless when comparing one brand to another. Is there any objective measurement to rely on for this?
Yea, loft. Look for about 2".


Fair enough. And frankly, when I'm in a buggy place, I'm probably canoeing or hiking in 3-5 miles or such, and I don't mind the weight of my existing tent. I've not been bothered by bugs in most places I tend to go.

Ticks are *rampant* in the Uwharries, during the season - what's the deal with ticks and bug nets? So far, I've only picked up ticks from walking through grass. I imagine that camping in tick-infested grass would also be an issue.

So don't camp in grassy fields.


So you'd say that a tarp and a groundcloth can handle rain and wind at 35 degrees reasonably well? Aesthetically, I'd sure like less in between me and nature than I typically have at night.
It can, but you need to play with this. It isn't like a tent where you just pick a flat spot and set up per instructions. You need to know a few different pitches and think about where you plan to set up. If you are expecting a gentle, soaking rain you will be fine with one pitch in one place, but if you are expecting a blow you will want another pitch in a more sheltered area. There are some videos out there on pitches these days. Get a cheap tarp and play with it.


Actually, I do that. I won't tell you what my first aid kit looked like before I started weighing it ;-> I can imagine. My first aid repair kit kept getting whittled down over the years. I think I am as small as I want to go now.


I'll start a spreadsheet - good tip.

Thanks!

Jonathan
Something else I ought to mention - I didn't see what I would condider a full packing list of everything. Food bag, luxury items, etc. Don't take anything for granted.

Good luck

[Mags]

Would you be comfortable using a tarp rather than a tent in just about any weather, including 35 degrees and pouring rain and wind?


I've used the 8x10 Equinox Tarp (from Campmor) for a while. It is an excellent "bread and butter" tarp. No frills, basic, good price.

It is all how you set the tarp up.

I'm a big fan of Sgt. Rock's tarp set up site. (http://hikinghq.net/gear/tarp.html)

FWIW, I've used a tarp in all kinds of weather. Snow, rain and cold included. Warning, my mug may scare you. :D

On aweekend backpack in the Indian Peaks Wilderness. (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=36&g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=9313)

Near the Cochetopa Hills on the CDT last year. (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=36&g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=14331)


A tarp is not for everyone...but it is a very versatile shelter!

[leep frog]

I hike in NC in those weather conditions, and personally don't like a tarp in the winter rain. I went with a tarptent this year and have loved it, perfect comprimise between a tarp and a tent. If it's nice I generally just throw out a tyveck sheet large enough for my bag, but the tent is good in blowing rain.

I also have been carrying a six moon designs pack for three or so years now and have been very happy with it. It's not as light as some, but if you need to haul a large load it works well and it's still pretty light.

Not a fan of alchohol stoves with a group, but I find that esbit and alchohol work well for me solo in all of those weather conditions with the caveat that a cozy is a must in winter. I have a whisperlite I never carry anymore-try a canister with a large burner for groups. They're easy and fast.

I don't care for sewing after trying my hand at several tarps and hammocks. They worked well, but I'd rather just be lazy and buy gear. I think the above three options are fairly easy ways to drop weight and don't require what some see as "ultralite comprimises."

[sherrill]

I've stayed dry in many a raging thunderstorm using a sheet of 3 mil plastic with a string hung between two trees, and rocks to make space.

Of course placement is key in that situation.

[Bootstrap]

OK, so here's my progress so far.

I'm making a spreadsheet to compute total pack weight. I need a better postal scale, I'm using a kitchen scale that only goes up to 2 pounds.

I bought an Atmos Osprey 65 ($36.00, including tax, when returning in my Gregory Triconi, a pack I really didn't like), big enough for any load I carry, good at light weight too, very well organized, and 3 pounds 10 ounces. That's 2 pounds 1 ounce less than my Gregory was. I considered lighter packs, but I went walking around with 15-40 pounds in a variety of packs, including the Granite Gear Nimbus Meridien, and I decided that this pack worked really well for me at the whole range of weights.

I bought an Open Country cook kit ($20.00). The 2 liter pot and lid weigh 6 ounces, the smaller one weighs a little less. One or the other is sufficient if I'm carrying gear only for me.

I've made a Supercat stove, and have been cooking with it. Works well for some things, but I think I'll probably buy some flavor of Coleman F1, with or without Powerboost, before I'm done, because sometimes I like (1) to get my coffee cooked fast, or (2) to be able to simmer.

Bought a Ridgerest, more than a pound lighter than my Trekker inflateable.

Still playing around with tarps and tents.

At any rate, losing 10 pounds is going to be easy, but it takes time to get a good feel for each piece of equipment, decide what I like, decide when it's worth doing a few extra ounces.

Thanks for all the advice!

Jonathan

[hopefulhiker]

I would go with a tarp tent for the bugs... You might even find yourself shaving some more ounces here and there!

[SGT Rock]

Doing good man. And I like having a postal scale that has a low max - if I can't weigh it - then it probably is too heavy LOL.

[Bootstrap]

I would go with a tarp tent for the bugs... You might even find yourself shaving some more ounces here and there!

I'm having a hard time finding a tarp tent that fits two people and gear for a price I want to pay. I'm still keeping my eyes open ...

As things stand, if I hike in the Croatan, I'm taking my tent, no questions asked. But a lot of place I hike, bugs aren't that big a deal. Still, if I got the right deal on a tarptent ...

Jonathan

[Bootstrap]

Doing good man. And I like having a postal scale that has a low max - if I can't weigh it - then it probably is too heavy LOL.

Hey, thanks for all your helpful advice!

Jonathan

[Flush2wice]

I'm making a spreadsheet to compute total pack weight. I need a better postal scale, I'm using a kitchen scale that only goes up to 2 pounds.
Jonathan

I don't know a ton about scales but here is one I have. I use it for my work, not for gear. It goes up to 11 lbs and down to a tenth of an ounce. Also does grams. $25-$30.
http://www.escali.com/Primo.html
After you weigh your gear, use it in the kitchen. It comes in 11 eye catching colors.

[Flush2wice]

oh yeah, easy tare too.

[take-a-knee]

I'm having a hard time finding a tarp tent that fits two people and gear for a price I want to pay. I'm still keeping my eyes open ...

As things stand, if I hike in the Croatan, I'm taking my tent, no questions asked. But a lot of place I hike, bugs aren't that big a deal. Still, if I got the right deal on a tarptent ...


Jonathan

Tarptents turn up on ebay from time to time if you have the time to wait. I've seen two for sale here on WB in the last two weeks.

[Bootstrap]

Tarptents turn up on ebay from time to time if you have the time to wait. I've seen two for sale here on WB in the last two weeks.

I'm looking for a two-person tarp tent, and for no more than 150-170. Used tarp tents seem to be going for a lot more than that, asking prices are often very close to the new prices.

Jonathan

[Bootstrap]

Our local WalMart has a surprising amount of decent equipment these days, including a Coleman Peak 1 for $19.95, 6.7 ounces.

Or I could get a Coleman Exponent F1 Ultralight for $36.95 from Campmor, plus shipping, say $40.00 total, 2.7 ounces.

Both stoves look good to me. Is it worth $20.00 to save 4 ounces? I suppose that depends on my goal pack weight, which is 30 pounds from skin out for a 3 day weekend.

How do y'all make decisions like this?

Jonathan

[SGT Rock]

IMO it is - not only because it is lighter, but because the F1 burner is made for the smaller pots solo backpackers (and probably a simple couple cook system) so it wastes less fuel than that other one would. Also, it has less moving parts that could break.

[Bootstrap]

IMO it is - not only because it is lighter, but because the F1 burner is made for the smaller pots solo backpackers (and probably a simple couple cook system) so it wastes less fuel than that other one would. Also, it has less moving parts that could break.

Thanks!

Jonathan

[Alligator]

...
Both stoves look good to me. Is it worth $20.00 to save 4 ounces? I suppose that depends on my goal pack weight, which is 30 pounds from skin out for a 3 day weekend.

How do y'all make decisions like this?

JonathanOver the course of about 3 years I gradually replaced a lot of my gear. I went from gear bought because it was all I could afford it to gear I'm replacing for weight savings and I have a bigger budget. I've found a very rough average to be about $8-$10/ounce. It will depend a lot on what gear you have when you are starting and whether you are radically switching your backpacking style. (For instance tent to tarp). Saving four ounces for $20 would be a good choice IMO. An ounce is an ounce so if you are changing out gear, go for the cheapest ounce savings first. You do need a more open ended budget though to be able to do it that way.