Regulating thru-hikers

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I did a little searching to see if I could find the transcripts of the speeches. I couldn't find the exact wording. But Morgan Sommerville of the ATC was one of the speakers. He said that he hoped that 2000-miler status would be granted for those that choose to take the BMT route inside Great Smoky Mountains National Park. That was July 2005.
I just can't imagine this happening.I can and hope it does ASAP.

A question for those more involved with the ATC than I am - Is there anything we can do to speed up this process? The single trail concept made sense when the AT was first established. Now that it is a large enough phenomena to support trail-side hostels and to do damage to the trailside ecology and the trail itself, the time has come to embrace the corridor concept officially IMO - and the sooner it happens, the better.

The question of whether thrus and sectioners do as much or more damage to the AT in North GA, North Carolina and the GSMNP than dayhikers and weekenders is moot. That the large numbers do some damage is readily apparent and switching from the single-trail model to the corridor model of an AT hike would help minimize the damage done by the thrus and sectioners seeking a 2,000 miler certification / patch. I don't dislike thrus and I am a section hiker - I love the official AT route enough to want to protect it from further damage due to large numbers in the spring and care enough about the experience of new hikers to want their experience in places like the GSMNP to be enjoyable so they will continue to use and preserve the area for future generations.

Finally, no one is saying that people cannot opt to hike the white-blazed trail in its entirety if that is their ideal hike. What is being proposed is an alternative route for those who find the damage and crowds detracting from their ideal hike from Springer to Katahdin.

[Lone Wolf]

You're bringing the condescention upon yourself with broad statements that paint a negative picture of thru hikers. You'd do better to be aware that most thru hikers care deeply about the trail as well as the experience that other hikers get from their hike. A little acceptance of that fact would carry some weight in getting your opinion across.

come spend a week at The Place here in Damascus during peak NOBO season. you'll understand

[journalist]

It's actually not condescending. Expecting everyone else to change so that you can have what you want is unreasonable. If you're looking to experience the park and avoid crowds and thru-hikers, I offered a reasonable solution. If you are dead set on going back to the AT in springtime, how bad could this alleged "problem" be?

i'd like to enjoy the a.t. in the springtime and not have to deal with crowds of people who are spoiling everybody else's wilderness experience just to satisfy their own egos. how about that? you work for a hiking association, correct? you have invested in the status quo, so you naturally will defend it. i take your comments with a grain of salt. you are not interested in change.

[Sly]

Having an "official" alternate isn't unheard of on a national scenic trail. The CDT has one at the southern terminus. You can either start at Crazy Cook monument or at the border near Columbus NM. There's also a third starting point that many take. On the northern end there's a official terminus and an official alternate.

Y'all need to go out there!

[_terrapin_]

come spend a week at The Place here in Damascus during peak NOBO season. you'll understand

Sorry to say, Damascus has brought this problem upon themselves. Trail Days was already a zoo in 1990. I can't imagine what goes on there nowadays.

Why condemn thru-hikers in general because of this?

[Pedaling Fool]

i'd like to enjoy the a.t. in the springtime and not have to deal with crowds of people who are spoiling everybody else's wilderness experience just to satisfy their own egos. how about that? you work for a hiking association, correct? you have invested in the status quo, so you naturally will defend it. i take your comments with a grain of salt. you are not interested in change.
What happened to the erosion issue? Ahh the truth comes out.

[Marta]

And yet again, I say to any aspiring thru-hiker who doesn't want to be crowded in the Smokies--hike SOBO!:D

SOBO Pride!

[Lone Wolf]

Sorry to say, Damascus has brought this problem upon themselves. Trail Days was already a zoo in 1990. I can't imagine what goes on there nowadays.

Why condemn thru-hikers in general because of this?

i'm not talking about Trail Days. just the regular wave of NOBOs that start coming through here in april. a lot of them are friggin animals that care less about rules and such. trail days is a whole other issue

[Sly]

I can understand the over crowding during spring, but I honestly haven't seen the damage FD speaks of. Anyone know what she's talking about?

[Lone Wolf]

And yet again, I say to any aspiring thru-hiker who doesn't want to be crowded in the Smokies--hike SOBO!:D

SOBO Pride!

yup. you got it!

[warraghiyagey]

i'd like to enjoy the a.t. in the springtime and not have to deal with crowds of people who are spoiling everybody else's wilderness experience just to satisfy their own egos. how about that? . . .

So you will always see this as all about you and disregard that there are other people that dream of doing the same. Yet invoke the egos of others while your own pulses acridic here on this hiking site. As if a thru hike can only be about ego rather than a grand experience in this short life.

[_terrapin_]

Then why say something you know is totally wrong.

Nope, I know (and LW knows) what I'm talking about. Simple example: LW used to take part in hiker feeds and supported/defended them on Trailplace (years ago.) Now he's decided he's against them and mocks others who do what he did himself.

He mocks those who use shelters, hostels, hiking poles, or point out the dangers of fording.

He stands in judgement of thru-hikers, but he can't really decide if he is one or not. Depends on the context, I suppose. :rolleyes:

[warraghiyagey]

And yet again, I say to any aspiring thru-hiker who doesn't want to be crowded in the Smokies--hike SOBO!:D

SOBO Pride!

Amen sister!!!:) :) :)

[_terrapin_]

i'm not talking about Trail Days. just the regular wave of NOBOs that start coming through here in april. a lot of them are friggin animals that care less about rules and such. trail days is a whole other issue

Just curious, if you hate thru-hikers so much, why'd you move to Damascus?

[Lone Wolf]

Nope, I know (and LW knows) what I'm talking about. Simple example: LW used to take part in hiker feeds and supported/defended them on Trailplace (years ago.) Now he's decided he's against them and mocks others who do what he did himself.

He mocks those who use shelters, hostels, hiking poles, or point out the dangers of fording.

He stands in judgement of thru-hikers, but he can't really decide if he is one or not. Depends on the context, I suppose. :rolleyes:

LW feels feeds have gotten out of hand. they ain't what they used to be.

He rarely used shelters or hostels and never used hiking poles. he feels fording is safe if done right

LW judges by what he sees nowadays in towns and on the trail. he considers himself a 16,000+/- miler. not a thru-hiker :rolleyes:

[MOWGLI]

i'd like to enjoy the a.t. in the springtime and not have to deal with crowds of people who are spoiling everybody else's wilderness experience just to satisfy their own egos. how about that? you work for a hiking association, correct? you have invested in the status quo, so you naturally will defend it. i take your comments with a grain of salt. you are not interested in change.


I'm pragmatic. I'm interested in change that makes sense and that I can help effect.

In that regard, I view the possibility that EVERYONE ELSE is going to change what they do to accommodate me and my desires as highly unlikely. So what do I do in that circumstance? I seek out an situation that offers me the experience that I want. That's what i tried to offer you. How much of the Smokies off of the AT have you hiked?

For the record, I have no investment in the status quo. I was a change manager in a previous career. I think change can be good. I'm just not going to try and impose change on a "mob", as you put it.

If there is anyone invested in the status quo, it seems to be you. You only want to hike on the AT in the Smokies in the spring and not have to deal with thru-hikers. That seems unreasonable to me. In the spring, that's where the thru-hikers are!

I strongly suggest you contact Great Smoky Mountains NP and share your concerns with them. If you're not willing to do at least that much, then all you're doing is complaining.

[warraghiyagey]

No insult. It's the truth. LW knows what I'm talking about. LW's done many thousands of miles on the AT, but (AFAIK) doesn't consider himself a thru-hiker. Whatever - that's beside the point.

The point is, like WF, he's been all over the trail, multiple times. He's done many or most of the same things that "typical" thru-hikers do, and yet stands in stern judgement of those folks who are doing it for the first time. As if he'd never been there or done that.


'Ex serial thru hiker wannabe' - isn't an insult? And if it's besides the point, why do you make a point of it?

[Lone Wolf]

Just curious, if you hate thru-hikers so much, why'd you move to Damascus?

i never used the word hate anywhere *******, i moved here purely spontaneously. the house was cheap, i needed a place to live for me and gypsy, i knew lots of locals, i'm surrounded by national forest and there are tons of trails other than the AT. i don't take in hikers. i don't socialize with most of them

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Mowgli, what portions of the Great Eastern trail would lend themselves easily to be alternatives to the traditional AT route?

[SGT Rock]

Will potential thru-hikers use the BMT just because they're "allowed" to? I dunno.

Lets find out...


I was thinking the same thing. I'm not Infantry, but I am a Scout, so in this case I'll use the Infantry motto:



"Follow Me!"



This is a question for Sgt. Rock-- where is this BMT trail and is there a map ? I for one would rather bypass the regular white blaze thu the park if possible' Thanks Cowboy

1


Since I hiked the AT through the park in 2003, I think I may have been convinced by this thread to take the BMT this time around in 2008. A chance to check out a different part of the park.

2


If I do the AT again, I be all for taking the BMT. Heck, I may do a BMT thru-hike at some point. (I don't think I'd apply for an AT certificate at this point, though.)

3


I agree wholeheartedly with the corridor approach. Since I've already hiked Springer - Erwin during thru hiker season, and the older I get the less appealing dealing with the masses is, I may follow Rock's lead and take the BMT when I thru.

4

In about 24 hours 4 people that have now heard about this issue have posted here that they are now considering it. That doesn't count the three others that contaced me in PM and a couple others that mentioned it on other threads.

In my limited (24 hours) experience of bringing it up, yes, others will go that way just because they can. I wonder what will happen when people that do it come back and rave about it? Maybe it will go up. Wanna hike the BMT with me?

[warraghiyagey]

. . . i don't take in hikers. i don't socialize with most of them

Crap. And I was hoping to meet you next year.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

5 & 6 - He and She Dino would use the BMT instead of the AT thru the GSMNP if it were authorized.

[Lone Wolf]

Crap. And I was hoping to meet you next year.

i'll make an exception. depending on the time of year i may let you camp in the yard:)

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I associate with Gypsy which lets me associate with LW by default :D.

[warraghiyagey]

5 & 6 - He and She Dino would use the BMT instead of the AT thru the GSMNP if it were authorized.

And maybe 7. I'm not hiking for a patch but for the experience. If this route proves to be a beautiful option, I may very well take it.

[MOWGLI]

Mowgli, what portions of the Great Eastern trail would lend themselves easily to be alternatives to the traditional AT route?

The Allegheny Trail to the Tuscarora Trail. They could form a big loop with the AT.

[warraghiyagey]

i'll make an exception. depending on the time of year i may let you camp in the yard:)

Sweet. That is if journalist hasn't kicked me off the trail by then.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I don't give a hoot about the patch either, but He-Dino wants one so we will hike a hike that gets him a patch. We are a team.

[_terrapin_]

'Ex serial thru hiker wannabe' - isn't an insult? And if it's besides the point, why do you make a point of it?

Maybe you ought to just let it go since you don't really get it. Or maybe LW would like to explain. In any case, I haven't noticed LW taking major offense at this characterization. I'll respond to LW if he does, but not to those who choose to misinterpret my words.

[SGT Rock]

Maybe you ought to just let it go since you don't really get it. Or maybe LW would like to explain. In any case, I haven't noticed LW taking major offense at this characterization. I'll respond to LW if he does, but not to those who choose to misinterpret my words.
Man, why are you now trying to turn this into a thread about LWolf. Get off his dick already.

[_terrapin_]

Lets find out...

Three of your four quoted responders have already done GSNP and would be doing it for the second time. :rolleyes:

[warraghiyagey]

I don't give a hoot about the patch either, but He-Dino wants one so we will hike a hike that gets him a patch. We are a team.

How can one not respect that. My memories of the trail are my patch. But I've seen others' patches and regard them with respect. Nice work FD to you and your team - that's a beautiful sentiment.

[SGT Rock]

What is your point? People only like the BMT after they find out there is nothing magical about the AT. Your arguments are getting weaker.

[_terrapin_]

Man, why are you now trying to turn this into a thread about LWolf. Get off his dick already.

At this point I'm responding to his sycophants, Rock.

[SGT Rock]

At this point I'm responding to his sycophants, Rock.
Actually you are continuing the BS even though you admited it isn't true. Again, you have the option to stop. So stop already.

[warraghiyagey]

Maybe you ought to just let it go since you don't really get it. Or maybe LW would like to explain. In any case, I haven't noticed LW taking major offense at this characterization. I'll respond to LW if he does, but not to those who choose to misinterpret my words.

Why do you need to invoke anothers (well respected) name to make your point. Don't you have enough of your own?

[Pedaling Fool]

Three of your four quoted responders have already done GSNP and would be doing it for the second time. :rolleyes:
Still resisting change. He must be a conservative.:D

[_terrapin_]

Still resisting change. He must be a conservative.:D

If not for that smiley....

[SGT Rock]

At this point I'm responding to his sycophants, Rock.
And last time I looked, LWolf doesn't meet the definition of what is required to even have sycophants and the people telling you that your FOS are not fulfilling the other half of that. They are just telling you that you are FOS.

Man, you are self centered.

[Lone Wolf]

anothers (well respected) name to make your point.

me being well-respected is highly debatable :)

[Pedaling Fool]

If not for that smiley....
Getting weaker.

[warraghiyagey]

me being well-respected is highly debatable :)
If only one respects you well then it's so. My guess is the number is higher than one.:)

[_terrapin_]

Excuse me, john gault, but what exactly would you like me to say? I presume you were being facetious in calling me a conservative. OTOH, I'll guess that the ATC is going to resist or ignore Rock's idea (in other words, I'm calling the ATC conservative in this regard.) Personally, I don't care one way or another.

[Sly]

Three of your four quoted responders have already done GSNP and would be doing it for the second time. :rolleyes:

Lots of hikers are concerned about the number of people hiking the AT in the spring. If it were known that the BMT was an official alternate, I think many would take it. Afterall, the trail was Benton's idea in the 1st place.

[_terrapin_]

Lots of hikers are concerned about the number of people hiking the AT in the spring. If it were known that the BMT was an official alternate, I think many would take it. Afterall, the trail was Benton's idea in the 1st place.

Hey, why not? It might work. But just out of curiosity, what percentage of thru hikers even know who Benton MacKaye was? :-?

[Dakota Dan]

I don't want to get into any kind of debate, but, I have been reading a lot lately about the "DECLINE" in backpacking, camping and/or hiking, across the board, throughout the nation. Just imagine what it would be like if the hiking community was increasing at a rate similar to the population increase. I also agree with Mr Tarlin that trying to regulate thru-hikers would be like trying to herd cats.

[warraghiyagey]

. . . Personally, I don't care one way or another.
Well except for the need to respond.

[warraghiyagey]

Hey, why not? It might work. But just out of curiosity, what percentage of thru hikers even know who Benton MacKaye was? :-?
That would surely be a tough number to settle on. I knew of the AT long before I'd heard of McKaye. But I appreciate his efforts now that I've heard of him.

[Sly]

But just out of curiosity, what percentage of thru hikers even know who Benton MacKaye was? :-?

You could always sit your azz down at Springer and ask. :rolleyes: But without a definitive number, I'd say a majority.

[SGT Rock]

You could always sit your azz down at Springer and ask. :rolleyes: But without a definitive number, I'd say a majority.
I would have to agree. I haven't met a thru-hiker yet who hadn't heard of him. I have met some section hikers before that haven't.

But talking about it, promoting it, and making the information available is what it is all about. Sniveling that you think it won't help - well that surely will not help. As my Granny would say: Can't never could.

[warraghiyagey]

. . . I also agree with Mr Tarlin that trying to regulate thru-hikers would be like trying to herd cats.

Meeeooowwww.

[SGT Rock]

Excuse me, john gault, but what exactly would you like me to say? I presume you were being facetious in calling me a conservative. OTOH, I'll guess that the ATC is going to resist or ignore Rock's idea (in other words, I'm calling the ATC conservative in this regard.) Personally, I don't care one way or another.
What is wrong with being a conservative?

[warraghiyagey]

What is wrong with being a conservative?

Uummmm. . . because alot of them are big poopie heads.:banana

[SGT Rock]

Probably makes a value or character judgment about me because I am conservative just like he makes on SUV drivers.

[_terrapin_]

I would have to agree. I haven't met a thru-hiker yet who hadn't heard of him.

I'm impressed. This is a question you pose to every thru-hiker you meet? :-?

[SGT Rock]

I'm impressed. This is a question you pose to every thru-hiker you meet? :-?
No terrapin. Keep up you BS though. You make yourself look petty.

[warraghiyagey]

No terrapin. Keep up you BS though. You make yourself look petty.

Per usual.

[hopefulhiker]

Just to throw my two cents in...

The Smokies had to be one of the most crowded sections of my whole trip.. not to mention about a hundred people at No Business Shelter one night...

There were many non thru hikers there too...

I think that the option should be given to get credit for a Thru hike if you hike the BMT, although I haven't done it, I would like to hike it sometime...

[Sly]

I didn't think the Smokies was any more crowded than the AT in Georgia, probably less so.

[warraghiyagey]

Just to throw my two cents in...

The Smokies had to be one of the most crowded sections of my whole trip.. not to mention about a hundred people at No Business Shelter one night...

There were many non thru hikers there too...

I think that the option should be given to get credit for a Thru hike if you hike the BMT, although I haven't done it, I would like to hike it sometime...

Still unsure of where 'credit' from others is required when you've hiked from Maine ot georgia or vice versa. How can there be any meaning beyond what it means to the person who experienced it. Are you doing it for your own reasons or for recognition?

[MOWGLI]

I didn't think the Smokies was any more crowded than the AT in Georgia, probably less so.

Because people have to stay at the shelters in the Smokies, it tends to get crowded at night. The ability to camp pretty much where you please south of the park creates the perception that the Smokies is more crowded. That's my take anyway.

[hopefulhiker]

It is the crowds at the shelters that I remember....

Just following the White Blazes, and yes ultimately it is a personal goal.. but I did apply for the recognition too..

[MOWGLI]

Still unsure of where 'credit' from others is required when you've hiked from Maine ot georgia or vice versa. How can there be any meaning beyond what it means to the person who experienced it. Are you doing it for your own reasons or for recognition?

Lots of folks want the patch, the certificate and the listing in the magazine. I did. Nothin' wrong with that IMO. It's a nice item on a resume too.

In retrospect, those things pale in comparison to my photos, friendships & memories.

[SGT Rock]

Face it, some people want the patch and are going to hike accordingly even if they think that is the way to get credit. There is a pretty proven reward incentive link. Napoleon had a great line about it.

So, knowing there is a reward incentive (all be it small and symbolic) opening up how that incentive is recognized will lead people to consider new options.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I'd like to se the BMT made an official AT route for use in north GA, North Carolina and to bypass the Smokies. It would alleviate a lot of the problem in late March, April and early May.

[warraghiyagey]

. . .
In retrospect, those things pale in comparison to my photos, friendships & memories.

Would you trade these for the patch? Would you have less in your life without it (and by patch I mean recognition from others?)

[MOWGLI]

I'd like to se the BMT made an official AT route for use in north GA, North Carolina and to bypass the Smokies. It would alleviate a lot of the problem in late March, April and early May.

It would take more than the ATC to agree to that. The BMTA would want their voice heard too. Their annual meeting is November 2-4. I suggest anyone interested in the trail consider attending. I would, but I'll be an hour north of Greensboro working with the folks from the Mountains to Sea Trail.

Details are here - http://bmta.org/

[Sly]

I'd like to se the BMT made an official AT route for use in north GA, North Carolina and to bypass the Smokies. It would alleviate a lot of the problem in late March, April and early May.

I think I get your drift but, the BMT doesn't bypass the Smokies!

[MOWGLI]

Would you trade these for the patch? Would you have less in your life without it (and by patch I mean recognition from others?)

There is some ego there. Trust me. It just doesn't manifest itself in a patch on my pack.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I think I get your drift but, the BMT doesn't bypass the Smokies!I was just out looking at that - wonder if the Foothills trail could be used to bypass the Smokies?
::: Dino seen studying maps and trying to remember geography lesson of long ago :::

[warraghiyagey]

There is some ego there. Trust me. It just doesn't manifest itself in a patch on my pack.

Gotcha. . . ZenMaster.:)

[ChimneySpring]

Why "move the spring breakers"? Don't they have as much of a right to hike the AT as anyone else?

I was wondering the same thing, especially in the face of comments from some posting here about the "purpose" of the trail. Can someone point me to the place where the AT is referenced as a tool for only people who want to traverse the entire length?

[MOWGLI]

I was just out looking at that - wonder if the Foothills trail could be used to bypass the Smokies?
::: Dino seen studying maps and trying to remember geography lesson of long ago :::

No. That will take you to the Bartram Trail via the Chattooga River Trail. You'll connect with the AT south of the Smokies.

You could take the BMT, jump off on the Mountains to Sea, and road walk or hitch back to the AT at 19E north of the Humps from near Grandfather Mountain. It's not all that far.

[Sly]

Why would anyone want to bypass the Smokies? It's arguably the most wild stretch of trail with more flora and fauna than just about anywhere in the US.

[warraghiyagey]

Why would anyone want to bypass the Smokies? It's arguably the most wild stretch of trail with more flora and fauna than just about anywhere in the US.

Don't you mean 'most wildest?':D

[Skyline]

I'd like to se the BMT made an official AT route for use in north GA, North Carolina and to bypass the Smokies. It would alleviate a lot of the problem in late March, April and early May.


Your idea has some merit, tho it's uncharted territory to have an official alternate route on the AT. I wonder if it's as simple as ATC simply decreeing it.

As examples: Would the new alternate become part of the National Scenic Trail recognized today as the AT, as defined by the US government? How does that happen within government? Act of Congress? Presidential Executive Order? Would the BMT "alternate" come under the auspices of ATC's various programs and missions? Would it come under the auspices of the NPS AT office? And then there is the issue of funding for the maintenance and protection of these additional miles, plus associated corridors, viewsheds, etc.

Lotsa red tape associated, it would seem. So much so that you have to wonder if ATC doesn't have more pressing issues for its limited resources.

[Marta]

Call me shallow, but I like the patch. Did I do the hike in order to get the patch? Absolutely not. But having taken the hike, I enjoy having the patch.

Not to get too catholic on you, but the patch is the physical manifestation of the experience. It's not quite to the level of transubstantiation, but it's a nice little souvenir.

[warraghiyagey]

Call me shallow, but I like the patch. Did I do the hike in order to get the patch? Absolutely not. But having taken the hike, I enjoy having the patch.

Not to get too catholic on you, but the patch is the physical manifestation of the experience. It's not quite to the level of transubstantiation, but it's a nice little souvenir.

Not shallow at all girl. You hiked the AT. I'm still looking forward to hiking the length. The recognition isn't for me. But as I say, I've admired the patch other people have, because I know what it means.:)

[SGT Rock]

Your idea has some merit, tho it's uncharted territory to have an official alternate route on the AT. I wonder if it's as simple as ATC simply decreeing it.

As examples: Would the new alternate become part of the National Scenic Trail recognized today as the AT, as defined by the US government? How does that happen within government? Act of Congress? Presidential Executive Order? Would the BMT "alternate" come under the auspices of ATC's various programs and missions? Would it come under the auspices of the NPS AT office? And then there is the issue of funding for the maintenance and protection of these additional miles, plus associated corridors, viewsheds, etc.
From my research it was proposed to be added to the National Scenic Trail Act in 2006, I don't know what the status is now.


Lotsa red tape associated, it would seem. So much so that you have to wonder if ATC doesn't have more pressing issues for its limited resources.
Well the BMTA has its own body working these issues. I don't think it needs to be incorporated as an "official" part of the AT or come under the ATC, but it would be a good idea to have a partnership agreement with the bodies. The AT could benefit from the BMT reducing congestion, and the BMT could benefit by being associated with the AT.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I just looked at the GSMNP trail map (1.4 MB PDF) (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/upload/trails2005.pdf) and it appears the BMT (yellow trail) does miss the entire AT (blue dotted trail) thru the GSMNP. I have seen other maps that show them running together.
::: :confused: Dino seen scratching head and looking confuzzled :confused: :::

[Tin Man]

No terrapin. Keep up you BS though. You make yourself look petty.

Typical of egotistical liberals who cannot make their causes stick. :p

[MOWGLI]

I just looked at the GSMNP trail map (1.4 MB PDF) (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/upload/trails2005.pdf) and it appears the BMT (yellow trail) does miss the entire AT (blue dotted trail) thru the GSMNP. I have seen other maps that show them running together.
::: :confused: Dino seen scratching head and looking confuzzled :confused: :::

The BMT crosses the AT inside the park at Sassafras Gap about 4 miles north of Fonatana Dam. They join again at Davenport Gap. They don't run concurrent for any distance. The BMT does run concurrent with the Mountains to Sea Trail for a while. The BMT stays on the NC side of the park the whole route.

[Sly]

I think applying for the patches (AT and PCT, CDT doesn't have one) is a good thing. I could be wrong but, I think it's similar to signing Forest Service or wilderness trail registers (not shelter registers). The more that sign/apply, the more funding they'll receive.

[Sly]

Typical of egotistical liberals who cannot make their causes stick. :p

Let's not get political. You could say the same for conservatives. :rolleyes:

[Footslogger]

It's not quite to the level of transubstantiation, but it's a nice little souvenir.

======================================

I about spilled my holy water when I read this one.

'Slogger

[SGT Rock]

Let's not get political. You could say the same for conservatives. :rolleyes:
Agreed....

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Why would anyone want to bypass the Smokies? It's arguably the most wild stretch of trail with more flora and fauna than just about anywhere in the US.Consider where I live, Sly. I'm very, very familiar with the fauna and flora of GSMNP - and with the problems of trail overuse and the annual tourist infestation in the GSMNP :D I've helped at least a dozen lost leaf-peepers this week alone..... For me, I'd rather hike the trail less traveled. However, as I noted earlier, others' ideal hike may well differ from my own. If I were from a different area, hiking thru the GSMNP might be one of the highlights of my hike.

[Mags]

======================================

I about spilled my holy water when I read this one.

'Slogger

I am having flashbacks of Sr. Helen. :eek:

[SGT Rock]

If I were from a different area, hiking thru the GSMNP might be one of the highlights of my hike.
A couple of the thru-hikers I talked to in the Smokies only bitched about it. Because of the crowded shelters they missed the big picture. Their loss.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

It's not quite to the level of transubstantiation, but it's a nice little souvenir.
I about spilled my holy water when I read this one.
I am having flashbacks of Sr. Helen. :eek::::: :banana Dino mopping holy water off monitor and keyboard :banana ::::

[Tin Man]

Dang, talk about beating an issue to death...so, let me beat it a little more. :)

To me the AT is a constantly changing corridor from Maine to Georgia. The footpath is moved from time to time to accommodate land acquisition, trail maintenance, etc. There are blue-blazed foul-weather routes and other ways to hike the corridor, including the BMT. Today's thru-hikers are walking a different path than those in the past. The trail can even change under your own feet, so to speak, when a re-route occurs behind you on a thru-hike. This makes just about every year's thru-hike a little bit different. Just stick to the corridor and you have hiked the AT. Why all the fuss? The ATC appears to recognize this and could amend their 2000-miler application to make this clear. Let's petition them to do so.

[Sly]

Consider where I live, Sly. I'm very, very familiar with the fauna and flora of GSMNP - and with the problems of trail overuse and the annual tourist infestation in the GSMNP :D I've helped at least a dozen lost leaf-peepers this week alone..... For me, I'd rather hike the trail less traveled. However, as I noted earlier, others' ideal hike may well differ from my own. If I were from a different area, hiking thru the GSMNP might be one of the highlights of my hike.

I really didn't see the crowds hiking through the Smokies on the AT but at the shelters, but I know where you're coming from.

In the Sierras, the Winds, Glacier etc, which are jaw dropping awesome, after several days it's like... ho hum just another gorgeous day. You almost become immune to the beauty. Still, I go back.

[Tin Man]

Let's not get political. You could say the same for conservatives. :rolleyes:

Exactly. That's why I stand in the middle, where all things wind up anyway because the radical left and right are...well, radical. :)

[SGT Rock]

I really didn't see the crowds hiking through the Smokies on the AT but at the shelters, but I know where you're coming from.
.

I think "crowd" is a relative term. If I see more people on a trail in a day of hiking than I have fingers, then it is a crowd.

[_terrapin_]

Exactly. That's why I stand in the middle, where all things wind up anyway because the radical left and right are...well, radical. :)

We'll eagerly await your next remark concerning egotistical conservatives and their lost causes. ;)

[Tin Man]

I think "crowd" is a relative term. If I see more people on a trail in a day of hiking than I have fingers, then it is a crowd.

Wait 'til you hit the Whites. You will be clamoring to build BMT North. :)

[SGT Rock]

Wait 'til you hit the Whites. You will be clamoring to build BMT North. :)
Sounds like a plan

[Pedaling Fool]

Dang, talk about beating an issue to death...so, let me beat it a little more. :)


I guess it's raining in a lot of places, besides where I'm at.

[Ewker]

maybe I missed it but would you have to tell the ATC that you hiked the BMT thru the Smokies instead of the AT? 2000 miles is still 2000 miles!!

[_terrapin_]

I think "crowd" is a relative term. If I see more people on a trail in a day of hiking than I have fingers, then it is a crowd.

I'm afraid you're in for a crowded hike, then, unless you avoid hiking on weekends. You can have what you want (sort of) by hiking sobo, or off season (and mid-week.)

[SGT Rock]

I guess it's raining in a lot of places, besides where I'm at.
Naw, chained to a desk.

maybe I missed it but would you have to tell the ATC that you hiked the BMT thru the Smokies instead of the AT? 2000 miles is still 2000 miles!!
I don't really think you have to. But someone is bound to call me a liar if I don't LOL. And if I do, and the ATC still gives it to me, then they can all stop their damn sniveling.

But they probably won't

[SGT Rock]

I'm afraid you're in for a crowded hike, then, unless you avoid hiking on weekends. You can have what you want (sort of) by hiking sobo, or off season (and mid-week.)
Or use the BMT.

[Tin Man]

We'll eagerly await your next remark concerning egotistical conservatives and their lost causes. ;)

I think it is egotisical conservative thinking that promotes the AT as a single white blazed footpath and anything else does not qualify for 2000-miler status and/or that it cannot or should not be changed. ;)

[Lone Wolf]

the ATC passes out certificates like coupons at a grocery. they mean nothing

[pitdog]

I have been to the smokies many times and I never had a problem finding sleeping space.

[Tin Man]

the ATC passes out certificates like coupons at a grocery. they mean nothing

I agree, but people like collecting mementos of their accomplishments, so if a patch is important for them, why not let them collect one in good faith.

[envirodiver]

most visitors to GSMNP get out of thier cars for less than 30 minutes.

Doesn't take long to feed and get the kids picture taken with a bear (they're sooooo cute).

[JAK]

My opinion.
1. Shouldn't matter which route you take as its on foot.
2. The trail cannot tell a thru-hiker from a day-tripper. Why should we?
3. Trail maintainers - now they are special.

[restless]

Pick up a good map of the Smokies-Trail illustrated. Plot out your own route. 900 miles of trails in the park, and most of them see little use so long as you stay away from trailheads. And a lot of them are high in scenic and/or historic value.

[MOWGLI]

Pick up a good map of the Smokies-Trail illustrated. Plot out your own route. 900 miles of trails in the park, and most of them see little use so long as you stay away from trailheads. And a lot of them are high in scenic and/or historic value.

Good to hear from you Amigo. You alright?

[Marta]

I guess it's raining in a lot of places, besides where I'm at.

You took the words right out of my...fingertips. My kids always used to get fractious on rainy days. Picking on each other. Fighting. Drove me nuts.







But I love 'em anyway.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I guess it's raining in a lot of places, besides where I'm at.I wish - stuck home waiting on a call from my mother's life insurance company (handling this so my Dad doesn't have to)

[Furlough]

Naw, chained to a desk.

I don't really think you have to. But someone is bound to call me a liar if I don't LOL. And if I do, and the ATC still gives it to me, then they can all stop their damn sniveling.

But they probably won't

Kinda of like that bit by the comedian Ron White - "At that point I had the right to remain silent - but I did not have the ability" :)

[T-Dubs]

<snip>
Lotsa red tape associated, it would seem. So much so that you have to wonder if ATC doesn't have more pressing issues for its limited resources.

Or it could be as easy as, 'While the BMT is not officially sanctioned as the AT it is, in spirit, part of the continuous trail and as such, will be recognized in the awarding of the (coveted) 2,000 mile patch'.

Or you could just fail to mention it specifically and get one of those certificates they hand out like grocery store coupons. Either way works for me.

Tom

[warren doyle]

When it comes to long distance hiking rules and regulations, I think of Edward Abbey's "Obey little, resist much!"

As to GSNP, in the 70+ miles there are many fine places to camp for migratory animals.

[Appalachian Tater]

I don't think adding tent sites between shelters would to the park justice or is necessary, since the over crowding is in a relatively short amount of time. It would be better to do nothing.

I agree. The effort would be better spent putting in outhouses. That would lessen the impact even more so.

[The Old Fhart]

WD-"As to GSNP, in the 70+ miles there are many fine places to camp for migratory animals."So if you're human and not a "migratory animal", obey the Park rules.:rolleyes:

[Appalachian Tater]

In my limited (24 hours) experience of bringing it up, yes, others will go that way just because they can. I wonder what will happen when people that do it come back and rave about it? Maybe it will go up. Wanna hike the BMT with me?

If I thru-hiked again, I would definitely do it. No doubt if it becomes an "official" way to "thru-hike", a lot of first-time thrus will choose it to avoid the crowds. It may even become crowded. If I were a frequent hiker in that area I would keep it hush-hush. When I find a great little restaurant that hasn't been "discovered" yet, I keep my mouth shut about it so I can get a table next time I go.

[Appalachian Tater]

To me the AT is a constantly changing corridor from Maine to Georgia. The footpath is moved from time to time to accommodate land acquisition, trail maintenance, etc. There are blue-blazed foul-weather routes and other ways to hike the corridor, including the BMT. Today's thru-hikers are walking a different path than those in the past. The trail can even change under your own feet, so to speak, when a re-route occurs behind you on a thru-hike. This makes just about every year's thru-hike a little bit different. Just stick to the corridor and you have hiked the AT. Why all the fuss? The ATC appears to recognize this and could amend their 2000-miler application to make this clear. Let's petition them to do so.

Thru-hiking the A.T. is now irrelevant. To be a TRUE THRU-HIKER, you have to start at Key West and hike to Belle Isle. The A.T. is just a section of the trail.

[Tin Man]

Thru-hiking the A.T. is now irrelevant. To be a TRUE THRU-HIKER, you have to start at Key West and hike to Belle Isle. The A.T. is just a section of the trail.

Your forgot to add "IMO". :rolleyes:

[Lone Wolf]

Thru-hiking the A.T. is now irrelevant. To be a TRUE THRU-HIKER, you have to start at Key West and hike to Belle Isle. The A.T. is just a section of the trail.

and you're a dick :rolleyes:

[Tin Man]

and you're a dick :rolleyes:

what happened to "moosecock"??? ;)

[_terrapin_]

what happened to "moosecock"??? ;)

I think Tarlin has the copyright on that one.

[Pacific Tortuga]

and you're a dick :rolleyes:

Not sure about that but I can't see it your way Tater, it just aint right.

[Lone Wolf]

Not sure about that but I can't see it your way Tater, it just aint right.

he likes key west for some reason. why would that be? :-?

[generoll]

Key Lime pie

[MOWGLI]

he likes key west for some reason. why would that be? :-?

Maybe he looks like Ernest Hemingway?

[emerald]

Thru-hiking the A.T. is now irrelevant. To be a TRUE THRU-HIKER, you have to start at Key West and hike to Belle Isle. The A.T. is just a section of the trail.

The resident authority on true thru-hikes is goldbond. You really should have checked with him before you go off making statements like what appears above.:rolleyes: I've argued with goldbond about true-thru hikes before and don't care if he wants to scrap again, especially since you're reading my last post for this weekend.:D

I think ATC should adopt AT's standard since not even Paul Bunyan's tall enough to hike the last stretch to Belle Isle. This move on ATC's part would reduce everyone to blue-blazers once and for all and eliminate recognition.

[Old Wolf]

I'm going to the Trail for freedom. I have to be told when I can hike a section of the trail? I don't think so. Not a good idea.

[solace]

Have to agree w/ B. Jack here... yes, you do get "some" THRU's who arent considerent.. but, mabye 10% . . . However, it indeed is the "weekend warriors", boy scout local 449, and families, ect. who impact negative camping. (80%) Many a thru-hiker has come to the aide of these "less-prepared" souls... THRU-HIKERS should be given more camping than what is currently allocated in the Smokies. All of us have to share, yes, but with the majority of THRU's coming thru in March/April, there should be differnt rules/camping spaces for those 2 months possibly.

[solace]

KEY WEST!!! Yeah, And Lone Wolf & B/ Jack are gong to be the next Prez & V.P of the USA!!! (Actually that might not be bad :) Heck, why dont we jsut say the AT runs from CUBA to Quebec! That way we'd all get to spend a month afloat with some illegal immigrants adrift at sea.. (which also MUST BE part of the AT) !!!!

[Lone Wolf]

THRU-HIKERS should be given more camping than what is currently allocated in the Smokies. All of us have to share, yes, but with the majority of THRU's coming thru in March/April, there should be differnt rules/camping spaces for those 2 months possibly.

I totally disagree. thru-hikers aren't special. they made a choice to be there.

[Hooch]

it's a bad idea if the goal is to let tens of thousands of people hike the a.t. end-to-end every year. that's not my goal. i'm sure a bunch of hikers would skip ahead. that's great.I thought journalists did their research? Obviously this one hasn't. Pitiful to spew your ignorance when you've no fact to back you up. The so-called "tens of thousands of people who hike the a.t. end-to-end every year" are actually much, much less. According to the ATC (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.1423119/k.BEA0/Home.htm), in 2007, approximately 1125 thru hikers started at Springer. If you take the number of thru-hikers who started the trail since 2002,a 5 (five) year period, the number only comes to about 8800. Thru hikers are actually in a very small minority of trail users compared to day hikers, vacationers and the like that use the trail annually. It is estimated that about 3.1 million people visit the AT each year in some form or another. This means that thru hikers make up maybe around 4% of the total users of the AT every year. I'm sure that thru-hikers, generally a group that wants to protect the trail as much as possible for future use, are much more likely to treat it properly, practicing Leave No Trace principles. I'm not sure what someone has done to make Journalist mad, but please don't pass your anger toward one person on to an entire group. It's just not nice.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Wonder how many of the vacationer, day-hikers, weekend warriors and scout groups choose to hike a particular route over less-known routes because it is part of the famous AT? If this is a factor, having multiple routes might take some of the non-thru-hiker traffic off the AT.

[Heater]

Wonder how many of the vacationer, day-hikers, weekend warriors and scout groups choose to hike a particular route over less-known routes because it is part of the famous AT? If this is a factor, having multiple routes might take some of the non-thru-hiker traffic off the AT.

Maybe we should move the AT! :D

[pitdog]

No, this would interfear with the traditionial thru hike.Also,are people just going to sit around waiting for their turn to hike through the smokys.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Maybe we should move the AT! :DI'm fairly sure that has been discussed elsewhere and pretty decided not to be a good idea.

::: Dino runs screaming from idea of that thread getting resurrected :::

[Lone Wolf]

I'm sure that thru-hikers, generally a group that wants to protect the trail as much as possible for future use, are much more likely to treat it properly, practicing Leave No Trace principles.

this just isn't true

[Tin Man]

this just isn't true

LW, do you have a feel for what percentage of thru's are seasoned hikers versus adventure seekers?

[Lone Wolf]

i would say 90% are adventure seekers having never done any backpacking long distance

[Tin Man]

i would say 90% are adventure seekers having never done any backpacking long distance

and as the adventure seekers near the end of their journey, what percentage of this group would you say become "enlightened" from their experience?

[Lone Wolf]

define enlightened

[mudhead]

The ones that don't sit 3' in on pavement, on the Golden Road, hitching.

[Tin Man]

define enlightened

in this context, a hiker who has learned to respect the trail, service providers, and acquired some skill along the way

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I'm sure that thru-hikers, generally a group that wants to protect the trail as much as possible for future use, are much more likely to treat it properly, practicing Leave No Trace principles.
this just isn't true
LW, do you have a feel for what percentage of thru's are seasoned hikers versus adventure seekers?
i would say 90% are adventure seekers having never done any backpacking long distance::: Dino starts popcorn for what will surely be an enlightening and entertaining discussion :::

[The Old Fhart]

Lone Wolf-"define enlightened."They left Springer with 50 pound packs and had it down to 30 pounds when they finished.:banana


Tin Man-"in this context, a hiker who has learned to respect the trail, service providers, and acquired some skill along the way"Using that definition many of the posters here who advocate illegal camping, breaking NPS, USFS, AMC rules, etc., not only have learned nothing, but have backslid! (Will Rogers-"He was born ignorant and has been going downhill ever since");)

[Heater]

They left Springer with 50 pound packs and had it down to 30 pounds when they finished.:banana

Using that definition many of the posters here who advocate illegal camping, breaking NPS, USFS, AMC rules, etc., no only have learned nothing, but have backslid! (Will Rogers-"He was born ignorant and has been going downhill ever since");)

Grab your partner before you go
Swing 'em around to and fro
Teach em how to doe-si-doe
Last chance for a dance
Grab your partner while you can
Every woman, every man
Show them all that you still can
Last chance for a dance

Last chance for a dance
Last chance for a dance
Last chance for a dance
Last call for alcohol
Now's the time to take the plunge
Andy's doing it on the drums
Quick before they call the nuns
Last chance for a dance
Bobby does it on the bass
Staring out there into space
We all know he's off his face
Last chance for a dance

Last chance for a dance
Last chance for a dance
Last chance for a dance
Last call for alcohol

Tommy does it on the ol' banjo
Fiddler does it with his bow
If you squeeze you'll let him know
Last chance for a dance
Go on give that box a squeeze
Play that thing between your knees
Oh that boy he's such a tease
Last chance for a dance

Last chance for a dance
Last chance for a dance
Last chance for a dance
Last call for alcohol

[Roots]

I'm with Frolicking Dinosaur eating popcorn right now!!:)

I did have to add a little something. My family is from right outside of the Smokies-NC side. I essentially grew up in the Smokies. I spent many a summer with my grandparents who live about 3 miles from Cheorkee. The thing that is killing the Smokies is not the few hundred thru hikers that come through every year as much as it is the idiots driving through. Go sit at Newfound Gap one day or Smokemont or my personel polluting favorite is Deep Creek. You would be amazed at what you'll see. Every time I go through these areas, whether I am hiking or driving, I could spend all day picking up after people and I still wouldn't be able to touch the impact they leave. What I don't understand is WHY??? Do people really not see the difference in 20 years ago and now. Go look at the Smokies from Clingman's today and then come back in 20 years and see if there is anything left. The GSNP is one of the most highly visited national parks and one of the most polluted. Nothing is being done to help. So those few thru hikers that come through every year is NOT the real problem.

SORRY... I get a little flustered when it comes to the Smokies. I feel better now.:o

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

::: Dino passes popcorn to Roots and says to pass it to Tipi on the other side :D :::

[SGT Rock]

Create massive parking lots outside the park and then set up a system of trolleys inside the park for $1 a head for an all day pass. You can still walk into the park for free.

[Heater]

Create massive parking lots outside the park and then set up a system of trolleys inside the park for $1 a head for an all day pass. You can still walk into the park for free.

Then we can moon the trolley. :banana

[Tin Man]

Then we can moon the trolley. :banana

Oi vey, please not another cogged-up thread. ;)

Warning. Hi-jack alert. Buckle-up.

[SGT Rock]

Then we can moon the trolley. :banana
Bonus, I never thought of that. Except it would most likely be electric and the enviromental "justifications" would be gone. Add to that most hikers at Newfound Gap would be waiting for a ride on it to get to G-Burg.

[EWS]

Sounds like Busch Gardens was when I was little.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

The trolley idea would be excellent - especially if they used a bio-friend fuel -- electric or cooking oil power -- for the trolleys. They could even use the eight to ten minutes to the first stop to do some environmental education for the captive audience :D

[Lone Wolf]

Bonus, I never thought of that. Except it would most likely be electric and the enviromental "justifications" would be gone. Add to that most hikers at Newfound Gap would be waiting for a ride on it to get to G-Burg.

they'd still moon it being the hypocrites most thru-hikers are

[SGT Rock]

The trolley idea would be excellent - especially if they used a bio-friend fuel -- electric or cooking oil power -- for the trolleys. They could even use the eight to ten minutes to the first stop to do some environmental education for the captive audience :D
No AC or other climate control either LOL.

[Lion King]

Get rid of the whole "must walk every mile of the AT" thing and start promoting blue blazing. The Smokies are full of great trails - no need to be all shoe-horned into just one.


Damn skippy.

The one that runs along the bank fo the Lake, follows the bodies of old cars, passes the Wild Boar area and cages, fords about 100 firggin streams and has a balls of a climb straight up to Russell field is an AWESOME hike.

Its got it all...except for hikers.

[The Old Fhart]

SGT Rock-"Create massive parking lots outside the park and then set up a system of trolleys inside the park for $1 a head for an all day pass. You can still walk into the park for free." I can envision many problems implementing this plan in GSMNP but Yosemite and Denali have done this, more or less, and it seems to be working.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

No AC or other climate control either LOL.You just lost half of the audience -- many would refuse to go if they had to give up AC and heat --- some would refuse just because they had to share their conveyance with others.

[Heater]

Bonus, I never thought of that. Except it would most likely be electric and the enviromental "justifications" would be gone. Add to that most hikers at Newfound Gap would be waiting for a ride on it to get to G-Burg.

Trolley from G-burg to the Smokys. Like an amusement park with a ride to the magic mountains.

They'd make billions. :D

[EWS]

The trolley idea would be excellent - especially if they used a bio-friend fuel -- electric or cooking oil power -- for the trolleys. They could even use the eight to ten minutes to the first stop to do some environmental education for the captive audience :D

Bio-friendly ~ make each person pump it, like the old railroad skids, for 8-10 minutes.

[Lone Wolf]

Damn skippy.

The one that runs along the bank fo the Lake, follows the bodies of old cars, passes the Wild Boar area and cages, fords about 100 firggin streams and has a balls of a climb straight up to Russell field is an AWESOME hike.

Its got it all...except for hikers.

that would be the eagle creek trail which goes up to spence field shelter

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Damn skippy.

The one that runs along the bank fo the Lake, follows the bodies of old cars, passes the Wild Boar area and cages, fords about 100 firggin streams and has a balls of a climb straight up to Russell field is an AWESOME hike.

Its got it all...except for hikers.One of my favorite hikes in the GSMNP.

[Pedaling Fool]

One of my favorite hikes in the GSMNP.
I don't like GSMNP, everything looks dead (the trees) and all those deep trenches, I assume caused by the horses. However, I've never hiked outside the AT corridor, so maybe I'm missing something.

[Roots]

Create massive parking lots outside the park and then set up a system of trolleys inside the park for $1 a head for an all day pass. You can still walk into the park for free.

Wouldn't that be nice!! You could start the trolleys at the visitor center outside Gatlinberg and Smokemont...I can see it...OK, I'm passin the popcorn to Tipi...:D

[Tin Man]

Uh, pardon me for interjecting a little global warming thought here and for not citing a source, but there is a body of thought that suggests that urbanization, including things like large parking lots (reflectors of the sun's rays) replacing former earthen areas (absorbers), contribute significantly to global warming.

[SGT Rock]

Damn skippy.

The one that runs along the bank fo the Lake, follows the bodies of old cars, passes the Wild Boar area and cages, fords about 100 firggin streams and has a balls of a climb straight up to Russell field is an AWESOME hike.

Its got it all...except for hikers.

Sounds like a good hike.


that would be the eagle creek trail which goes up to spence field shelter
Maybe I will get out and do that one weekend between now and when I start next month. Good shake down.

[Roots]

Uh, pardon me for interjecting a little global warming thought here and for not citing a source, but there is a body of thought that suggests that urbanization, including things like large parking lots (reflectors of the sun's rays) replacing former earthen areas (absorbers), contribute significantly to global warming.

There are already large parking lots at Gatlinberg visitor center and Smokemont!!:)

[Lone Wolf]

Uh, pardon me for interjecting a little global warming thought here and for not citing a source, but there is a body of thought that suggests that urbanization, including things like large parking lots (reflectors of the sun's rays) replacing former earthen areas (absorbers), contribute significantly to global warming.

who cares. we're doomed as a species anyway. let's build

[SGT Rock]

There are already large parking lots at Gatlinberg visitor center and Smokemont!!:)
I imagine they would need to be much much bigger. Think Disneyland parking lot.

[Heater]

who cares. we're doomed as a species anyway. let's build

Just extend it all the way to Dollywood.

[Tin Man]

who cares. we're doomed as a species anyway. let's build

Yeah, Coruscant is a beautiful planet. :rolleyes:

[Lone Wolf]

Yeah, Coruscant is a beautiful planet. :rolleyes:

never heard of coruscant. don't know what you're rollin' your eyes about

[pitdog]

Lone w do you still hear from WP.

[Lone Wolf]

who's WP?

[FatMan]

Wonder how many of the vacationer, day-hikers, weekend warriors and scout groups choose to hike a particular route over less-known routes because it is part of the famous AT? If this is a factor, having multiple routes might take some of the non-thru-hiker traffic off the AT.FD has hit the nail on the head. The AT is its own worst enemy because of its notoriety. Vacationers, weekend warriors, day hikers and scout groups will drive past many beautiful under used trails to hike on the AT because it is what it is...the holy grail of trails.

As I wrote in the "Move the AT" thread, in the spring the AT from Springer to Neels Gap is severely over used. Yet at the same time you could hike from Springer to Neels Gap using the BMT/DRT which is far more beautiful IMO and some days not see another hiker. Yet the vacationers, weekend warriors, day hikers and scout groups continue to pour onto the AT, because it is what it is. For many of the these folks, it is far more impressive to go back home and say they hiked on the AT, than to just say they went hiking. And, because the ATC will not recognize the route for completion of the AT, purist thru-hikers do not have the BMT/DRT as an option.

I suspect the same holds true for the trails in GSMNP, other high use areas.

[pitdog]

Whispering Pine

[Lone Wolf]

Whispering Pine

no, not in a while

[Tin Man]

never heard of coruscant. don't know what you're rollin' your eyes about

Corusant is the seat of govenment for Star Wars. It is a city-planet with no trees or visible earth and 1 trillion inhabitants.

[pitdog]

It seems to me most people dont keep in touch.I havent seen anyone I thru hiked with or around.I was going to go w nitewalker to virginia,but the old lady put a stop to it.I wish I did because roy was there. I met him in the carters and we hiked most of the day chatting.

[Lone Wolf]

Corusant is the seat of govenment for Star Wars. It is a city-planet with no trees or visible earth and 1 trillion inhabitants.

oh. never saw star wars

[superman]

I'd like to see an alternate route around the Smokies that is dog friendly.

[Lone Wolf]

It seems to me most people dont keep in touch.I havent seen anyone I thru hiked with or around.I was going to go w nitewalker to virginia,but the old lady put a stop to it.I wish I did because roy was there. I met him in the carters and we hiked most of the day chatting.

roy is here in damascus

[SGT Rock]

I'd like to see an alternate route around the Smokies that is dog friendly.
Now that is a good point, if you want to hike with your dog the Smokies is a big road block. Right now you could probably do it with some road walks.

[minnesotasmith]

1) Odds are they won't run but limited hours, times per day, capacity, and season, would limit your stuff (like no backpacks or trekking poles for hikers, no charcoal grills or large coolers for car campers, no booze or pot ENFORCED BY SEARCH for everyone, etc.). Want a 30.00 equivalent of the schedule for the Kennebec canoe, with a search and ID check thrown in?

2) They'll probably charge an arm and a leg. Cash only, of course, and better have exact change, with DRY bills.

3) If run on electricity, they still require either fossil fuel, nuclear power (not that I have a problem with it, but some here would), or large hydroelectric dams to supply them with power, just the power plant would be located somewhere else, in some other wilderness. (Solar is still impractical to replace those, and geothermal--120' drilling rigs all over Yellowstone okay with our resident Greenpeacers?)

4) If run on vegetable oils or ethanol, those are still in effect petroleum- and other fossil-fuel derived. When biodiesel or ethanol gets produced in plants at 100-million-gallons/year+ plants without petroleum-derived fertilizers, without petroleum-fueled trucks/trains/barges to move the feedstock around, without fossil-fuel or fissio-nuclear-energy power plants to power the processing equipment, metal used in the plants forged from original natural ores without coke (derived from bituminous coal) or fossil-fuel/nuclear power/hydroelectric energy, then I'll consider them to have mentionable environmental significance. Until then, biodiesel and ethanol are the energy equivalent of surrogate motherhood; the bother and mess still occur, just someone else is having to put up with it.

Just think of putting the AMC in charge of ANOTHER (supposedly-public) park to get an idea of how wonderful is this notion.

[Heater]

1) Odds are they won't run but limited hours, times per day, capacity, and season, would limit your stuff (like no backpacks or trekking poles for hikers, no charcoal grills or large coolers for car campers, no booze or pot ENFORCED BY SEARCH for everyone, etc.). Want a 30.00 equivalent of the schedule for the Kennebec canoe, with a search and ID check thrown in?

2) They'll probably charge an arm and a leg. Cash only, of course, and better have exact change, with DRY bills.

3) If run on electricity, they still require either fossil fuel, nuclear power (not that I have a problem with it, but some here would), or large hydroelectric dams to supply them with power, just the power plant would be located somewhere else, in some other wilderness. (Solar is still impractical to replace those, and geothermal--120' drilling rigs all over Yellowstone okay with our resident Greenpeacers?)

4) If run on vegetable oils or ethanol, those are still in effect petroleum- and other fossil-fuel derived. When biodiesel or ethanol gets produced in plants at 100-million-gallons/year+ plants without petroleum-derived fertilizers, without petroleum-fueled trucks/trains/barges to move the feedstock around, without fossil-fuel or fissio-nuclear-energy power plants to power the processing equipment, metal used in the plants forged from original natural ores without coke (derived from bituminous coal) or fossil-fuel/nuclear power/hydroelectric energy, then I'll consider them to have mentionable environmental significance. Until then, biodiesel and ethanol are the energy equivalent of surrogate motherhood; the bother and mess still occur, just someone else is having to put up with it.

Just think of putting the AMC in charge of ANOTHER (supposedly-public) park to get an idea of how wonderful is this notion.

Party pooper. :(

[pitdog]

Could you tell him I said hello,he may not remember me,but we first met near mt adams. He was taking a break eating.A few days later we hiked from the carters to rattle river shelter.

[SGT Rock]

Flintstone power then.

[minnesotasmith]

Party pooper. :(

I'm not wrong here, though, am I? Mandatory trolleys there would IMO just make things worse.

One ray of light to some here, though; as gasoline and diesel continue their overall ever-upward trend, fewer and fewer car camping tourons, ATV trail-destroyers, snowmobile chronic trespassers, etc., can be expected on the AT as that activity gets priced out of most current-participants' budgets. (Think of how many people went to Las Vegas or out-of-state ski resorts pre mid-1960's to get an idea of how that'd work.)

Of course, political support for parks (not to mention volunteer trail maintainers) may well go down, too...:-? :(

[Appalachian Tater]

(not to mention volunteer trail maintainers) may well go down, too...:-? :(

Not under the "copulation for reproduction as a form of trail maintenance" theory.

[pitdog]

Minn smith do you have info on the oil shale found in colorado.

[mudhead]

When were the buses into Denali started?

Yellow school buses when I was there.

Just what you did, never thought twice about having to park the car.

[Lilred]

I thought journalists did their research? Obviously this one hasn't. Pitiful to spew your ignorance when you've no fact to back you up. The so-called "tens of thousands of people who hike the a.t. end-to-end every year" are actually much, much less. According to the ATC (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.1423119/k.BEA0/Home.htm), in 2007, approximately 1125 thru hikers started at Springer. If you take the number of thru-hikers who started the trail since 2002,a 5 (five) year period, the number only comes to about 8800. Thru hikers are actually in a very small minority of trail users compared to day hikers, vacationers and the like that use the trail annually. It is estimated that about 3.1 million people visit the AT each year in some form or another. This means that thru hikers make up maybe around 4% of the total users of the AT every year. I'm sure that thru-hikers, generally a group that wants to protect the trail as much as possible for future use, are much more likely to treat it properly, practicing Leave No Trace principles. I'm not sure what someone has done to make Journalist mad, but please don't pass your anger toward one person on to an entire group. It's just not nice.


Being the math teacher that I am, I couldn't let this slide by. If there are 1125 thru hikers each year out of 3 million visitors to the AT, you'd be closer to 0.04%, not 4%. 4 percent would be 120,000.

[Hooch]

Being the math teacher that I am, I couldn't let this slide by. If there are 1125 thru hikers each year out of 3 million visitors to the AT, you'd be closer to 0.04%, not 4%. 4 percent would be 120,000.Ok, so my math skills aren't the best. :D I'm a nurse, not a mathematician. But my point was made, right? :banana

[Pedaling Fool]

...4 percent would be 120,000.
The AT is going to need bigger shelters.

[Lone Wolf]

The AT is going to need bigger shelters.

and dog kennels attached to them

[Tin Man]

Cell phone booths would be nice

[Hooch]

Since we're at it, why not add Wi-Fi to all the shelters and Sherpas?

[superman]

Now that is a good point, if you want to hike with your dog the Smokies is a big road block. Right now you could probably do it with some road walks.

In 2000 I called the kennel from NH (before starting the AT) to confirm the service, price etc. I was considering doing a rode walk around the Smokies but the motel owner at Fontana Dam and another hiker with a dog said good things about the kennel. When the woman picked up Winter and the other guy's dog she charged us $200 and gave us a dicount for having more than one dog to pick up. When I got to Mountain Momma's I called and was told that there had been a $50 price increase and that the two dog discount was not allowed. I had to pay the difference in order to get my dog. Oh yeah, they also lost Winter's leash.

[minnesotasmith]

Minn smith do you have info on the oil shale found in colorado.

It's the Green River Formation, of Eocene Age. The wells I'm on in CO drill through it all the time, so I've seen it repeatedly, and I did multiple papers on its geology in graduate school. It is lacustrine (ancient lake) in origin, which is unusual; most (about 90%?) of petroleum-source rocks and the like are of marine origin, usually algae. The bulk of it is in very roughly a 120-mile radius of the intersection of where WY, UT, and CO meet. The best (highest-grade) OS is in CO. There is a gentle regional dip northward in that part of the country, so everything gets deeper northward; it's something like 10,000'/100 miles (very roughly; relying on memory to give you a quick answer). Deep extraction (in the thousands of feet) is harder to justify economically; do a google search for "stripping ratio" (mining economics term) if you want more insight on that likely limitation.

It is the best oil shale in the Western Hemisphere. There is some lower-grade and hydrogen-deficient Devonian/Orodivician/Silurian [Paleozoic] OS in the triangle running from rougly Birmingham AL to W NY State to NW Illinois or so (the "Appalachian Oil Shale", or the New Albany/Huron/Chattanooga Formations), and some others OS deposits elsewhere in the U.S., but the Green River Fm. is much more practical to exploit. The potential quantities of shale oil obtainable run anywhere from decades to over a century of current U.S. total petroleum consumption equivalent, depending on the premises an assessment uses.

There are multiple impediments to making significant major use of the Green River OS, however.

First is sufficient water for retorting (extracting the shale oil by heating it without oxygen present), which requires HUGE volumes of water, in a part of the country technically desert. There actually was a serious proposal in early 1982 to build a large water pipeline from Lake Michigan to NW Colorado to deal with this problem once and for all. You'd need to tell all the farmers, ranchers, second/vacation/retirement-home builders, ski resorts, etc., for a huge (like 200-mile) radius that their surface and (eventually) well water is needed somewhere else, put growth restrictions and MUCH higher water prices on about 10 towns (Grand Junction, Rifle, Craig, Meeker, etc.), and ideally take the whole flow of the Colorado River before it leaves NW CO, etc., to do this on a really large scale if something like the Lake Michigan pipeline does not get built.

Second is the jurisdictional and ownership boundary issue. From having 3 different states and about a dozen counties involved, with much of the land either privately held in not-huge (by comparison to Alaska or King Ranch in south Texas scales), different Federal agencies (BLM, Forest Service, etc.) having oversight, the presence in the middle of some of the best OS of the Naval Oil Shale Reserve, etc., this is a major impediment to getting this stuff utilized on the best economy-of-scale program. An eraser to all the jurisdictional lines (like TVA, only stronger, and PRIVATELY RUN, so no inevitable gov't massive inefficiencies) would be needed IMO.

Third, OS also is higher in heavy metals than is conventional petroleum. Aside from being an environment consideration, some of the metals (Nickel in particular, I think) impede refining. Nickel (if memory serves) "poisons" (or deactivates) the catalysts such as Platinum and Palladium used for catalytic hydrocracking, which is the process by which oil refineries currently produce over 2/3 of the gasoline we currently use.

Fourth is the environmental regulation and permitting process. Suffice it to say that I think that the majority of the people working in the EPA, or sympathetic to Greenpeace, Sierra Club, Earth First, and the Environmental Liberation Front would all have to be permanently exiled to be with their fellow socialists/statists in North Korea (where they might well be happier) before using this OS on a significant scale could become a practical decision. Of course, once everyone in the US not gov't-connected is rationed to 10 gallons of gasoline or diesel a week, for which they have to pay 20 dollars or more a gallon in current dollars, during a longterm/permanent economic recession or worse, that may not be so hard to arrange. Problem is, of course, that it takes YEARS to build up such an operation (like 7 just for a decent-sized conventional refinery), so I'm not hopeful that the regulatory/political impediments will be removed in time to avoid our getting a chronic petroleum supply situation like that of Germany in 1944 before OS comes on line in any meaningful way.

Fifth is cost; shale oil will likely always be an expensive product. Gasoline from shale oil is NOT going to be two bucks a gallon in current dollars, ever. It is technically considerably harder to produce than the petroleum currently being produced from the tar sands in Alberta, which only recently (at current high oil prices) became practical to produce from an economic standpoint.

Sixth is the return-on-energy (ROE) from OS. This is the ratio of the energy produced from it, compared with that input required to obtain it. Conventional oil use to have an ROE of over 20:1, but is much lower (like 5- or 4:1?). Shale oil will have an ROE that will IMO be lower yet. That means that no matter the price offered, or the national need, if an energy "profit" isn't substantial, the product won't get made. It's a thermodynamic limitation there is NO way around; TANSTAAFL, and all that.

Was this the kind of information you were looking for, pitdog?

[minnesotasmith]

and dog kennels attached to them

Gas chambers for the loose ones. ;)

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

::: Dino whacks MS with tail ;) :::

[minnesotasmith]

::: Dino whacks MS with tail ;) :::

Instead use your tail to whack the obviously-uncaring owners who would let their dogs run loose, to so often die miserably, inflicting problems in the meantime?:-?

[The Mechanical Man]

Whack him again Dino.

[SGT Rock]

In 2000 I called the kennel from NH (before starting the AT) to confirm the service, price etc. I was considering doing a rode walk around the Smokies but the motel owner at Fontana Dam and another hiker with a dog said good things about the kennel. When the woman picked up Winter and the other guy's dog she charged us $200 and gave us a dicount for having more than one dog to pick up. When I got to Mountain Momma's I called and was told that there had been a $50 price increase and that the two dog discount was not allowed. I had to pay the difference in order to get my dog. Oh yeah, they also lost Winter's leash.That sucks.

[dessertrat]

Since we're at it, why not add Wi-Fi to all the shelters and Sherpas?

Why would you want to add Wi-Fi to a Sherpa?

[superman]

That sucks.

So I would be in favor of alternate routes, bi-passes, blue blazes or what ever way they are called for a variety of reasons. On some other trails alternate routes are noted for the hiker to select from. It would be fine to keep one route used as the "pure" route but there is no harm, no foul having alternatives noted.

[minnesotasmith]

In 2000 I called the kennel from NH (before starting the AT) to confirm the service, price etc. I was considering doing a rode walk around the Smokies but the motel owner at Fontana Dam and another hiker with a dog said good things about the kennel. When the woman picked up Winter and the other guy's dog she charged us $200 and gave us a dicount for having more than one dog to pick up. When I got to Mountain Momma's I called and was told that there had been a $50 price increase and that the two dog discount was not allowed. I had to pay the difference in order to get my dog. Oh yeah, they also lost Winter's leash.

List the kennel by name, and take every chance you can to badmouth them (sticking to the facts, as you laudably did above)? Poor service and breaking contracts deserves a poor reputation, ideally leading to bankruptcy.

I'm not a fan of dogs on trails, most of all loose ones, but you deserve the price you were offered. Too, you were apparently one of the higher-grade dog owners (having the gray matter to obtain and learn how to operate a leash), not to mention following the rules WRT not bringing dogs into the Smokies, so you deserve a little more sympathy IMO.

[Tin Man]

Why would you want to add Wi-Fi to a Sherpa?

So the Sherpa can order pizza and beer for delivery to the shelter?

[SGT Rock]

The main issue with an alternate route in that area at least is the fact the Smokies have the same no dog rule for all their trails and it sort of key-stones the route for that part of the Appalachians, the BMT wouldn't work for you since is is also in the park and has no-dog rules. I'll bet there are some trails on the NC side that go through forest service lands, but on the Tennessee side the route that would go around the Smokies is all Park Service and private land.

[superman]

List the kennel by name, and take every chance you can to badmouth them (sticking to the facts, as you laudably did above)? Poor service and breaking contracts deserves a poor reputation, ideally leading to bankruptcy.

I'm not a fan of dogs on trails, most of all loose ones, but you deserve the price you were offered. Too, you were apparently one of the higher-grade dog owners (having the gray matter to obtain and learn how to operate a leash), not to mention following the rules WRT not bringing dogs into the Smokies, so you deserve a little more sympathy IMO.

I feel no need to expose that kennel. I was not satisfied with their service but I know that they have many satisfied customers. I don't deserve or need your sympathy. I've seen humans do more bone headed things than I have dogs. I would have preferred an alternative to kenneling Winter. Winter's hiking days are over now. It would be desirable for some hikers, with their dogs, in the future to have such an alternative. Aside from the dog issue there are sections of the AT that could use some relief from the humans beating it up. There are some folks on WB that are good at digging up information. They should look ino it.

[stranger]

The only negative impact thru-hikers have on the Smokies is when some hikers feel that thru-hiking gives them special rights over weekenders, but this is rare in my view. I've hiked through the Smokies twice on long distance hikes and in my opinion thru-hikers tread lightly and most of the time you would never know they were even there. It's the weekenders and spring breakers who seem to litter up the shelters, not bury their waste properly and end up in conditions that they are not prepared for.

It's a shame that thru-hikers must camp at shelters in the Smokies, the further away from tourists we are the better in my view. I am personally considering not camping at shelters next year to avoid such a debate, I can afford the fine.

[warren doyle]

For long distance trail walking:

No rules and regulations.
No reservations or permits.
No fees.

FREEdom

[minnesotasmith]

For long distance trail walking:

No rules and regulations.



Such as no restrictions on setting dogs loose to chase wildlife or bite people, limiting campfires during severe droughts, or keeping town car-borne partiers or large commercial groups from swamping trail shelters neither designed nor intended for them? Some rules and regulations are good.

[Lone Wolf]

shelters are first come, first served. nobody has any priority

[Jack Tarlin]

Not paying fees, or refusing to pay them, or avoiding paying them, doesn't equal "freedom."

It simply means that you've decided that you are free from paying for things that other people have paid for, and they've done so without complaining about paying for it, either, nor have they attempted to argue the point that certain special people are somehow exempt from paying these expected fees.

And advocating "no rules and regulations" while one is hiking is obviously a recipe for anarchy. Many rules and regulations that one encounters.....in fact, most of them.....make perfect sense, and usually exist in order to insure that threatened or high-use areas don't suffer further damage.

The "No rules, no regulations, no fees!" demand is the cry of the thoughtless and selfish, i.e. the demand of someone who is thinking only of themselves.

Thankfully, this mindest is rare amongst long-distance hikers, and is a mindset that usually is scorned and rejected when witnessed by other long-distance hikers.

Usually, anyway.

[Lone Wolf]

here we go!! :banana

[warraghiyagey]

The "No rules, no regulations, no fees!" demand is the cry of the thoughtless and selfish, i.e. the demand of someone who is thinking only of themselves.

Thankfully, this mindest is rare amongst long-distance hikers, and is a mindset that usually is scorned and rejected when witnessed by other long-distance hikers.

Usually, anyway.
Amen brother.

[Jack Tarlin]

Lone Wolf:

What do you mean "Here we go"?

This is a public Forum.....if someone here says something that another member disagrees with it, they have the right to comment.

How many thousands of times have YOU done this? :D

And in my post, I mentioned no names. My comments were directed at everyone. If you or anyone else recognizes specific people.....or themselves.....well, so be it.

But when someone posts something here, it invites comments in return.

If they don't want their statement commented on, or perhaps criticized, then they don't have to post it.

Pretty simple.

[Lone Wolf]

same OLD spiel directed at we-know-who :cool:

[The Old Fhart]

Suggesting that all hikers be responsible on the trail and respect the rules and regulations put in place to protect the trail and the environment is a good way to become the target of personal attacks here on WB.:-?

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually my comments were directed at anyone who embraces this philosophy.

[Lone Wolf]

where's Teej to complete the trinity? :D

[Jack Tarlin]

The only "old spiel" I see right now, Wolf, is coming from YOU. :D

[Lone Wolf]

The only "old spiel" I see right now, Wolf, is coming from YOU. :D

i'm not giving a speech or trying to persude anybody

[Lone Wolf]

off to Dot's. see y'all later. :)

[Roots]

off to Dot's. see y'all later. :)

LW has now pressed his think button. Details at later time...:D

[Montego]

off to Dot's. see y'all later. :)

The announcers voice booms from the speakers: "Ladies and gentelmen, LW has now left the building......" :D

[River Runner]

Every spring a great glob of thru-hikers goes through the Smokies. They make things miserable for everyone and, as a group, probably cause the largest negative impact to the Smokies in any given year. Here is my solution: restrict the number of thru-hikers allowed into the park each day. I suggest 12 as a good number. You could let four go to Mollies, four to Russell and four to Spence, and that's it each day. You greatly lessen the impact by spreading everybody out. You could park a ridgerunner down at the Fontana entrance to hand out permits. This is a great idea, right?

Seems to me those being made miserable by Thru Hikers traveling on the AT in the spring should just avoid the AT in the spring. :-?

Lessen impact by building AYCE restaurants and hostels about 15 miles apart near the trail throughout the Smokies. All the thru-hikers will congregate there, minimizing impact on the trail itself. Problem solved. :banana

[Lone Wolf]

LW has now pressed his think button. Details at later time...:D

well i'm back. luv you all. :)