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Tipi Walter
11-10-2007, 10:01
Can someone tell me which is better, a silk baselayer with silk midlayers or a set of merino layers(or capilene). I am looking at the Icebreaker and Ibex merino stuff but also at using silk instead for my base and mid layers.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-10-2007, 10:26
Tipi, this is an excellent question and I'm looking forward to hear the responses.

I own a light silk layer and a mid-weight merino layer. I use them separately or together depending on conditions. The Dino tail has expanded and my heavy-weight neoprene or polyprobase layers don't fit anymore :D. Since I don't do a lot of serious winter hiking and no winter camping these days, I haven't replaced them. I just add a regular (not merino) wool sweater and some regular wool pants if the need for warmth arises.

Remember, I'm a girl - I like silk next to the skin because it feels more like the items I'm accustomed to having next to my skin. I gave my Capilene base layer to one of my grandkids and went back to mid-weight merino wool - a much better fabric IMO for keeping down hiker funk, managing moisture and keeping me warm when I've sweated-out my base layer(s). Merino does what it needs to next to the skin -- it manages moisture well and seems to have a warmer feel next to the skin than silk when slightly damp with sweat (Dino perception - no idea if it actually is warmer).

ZEKE #2
11-10-2007, 11:56
I have learned that you should match natural fabrics with natural fabrics and keep synthetic fabrics together. Somehow the match of a natural and synthetic fibre isn't as effective.

Tipi Walter
11-10-2007, 12:28
I have learned that you should match natural fabrics with natural fabrics and keep synthetic fabrics together. Somehow the match of a natural and synthetic fibre isn't as effective.

Is silk not a natural fiber, along with merino?

Appalachian Tater
11-10-2007, 13:34
I have learned that you should match natural fabrics with natural fabrics and keep synthetic fabrics together. Somehow the match of a natural and synthetic fibre isn't as effective.


Is silk not a natural fiber, along with merino?

Yes, silk and wool are both "natural" fibers (as are cotton, linen, etc.) and if there is a reason not to wear, say, wool over polypro, I can't imagine what that might be. That's like saying if you have cotton sheets you shouldn't use a fiberfill comforter, you must use down.

I believe wool is generally warmer than silk because it is woven or knit in such a way as to trap more air. It is very light for its bulk and insulates fairly well when wet. That has more to do with the fabric than the fiber itself. Silk is an amazing substance, and it is a great insulator, but the fabric it is woven into is generally very thin.

Loose silk fibers in a comforter are probably better insulation than an equivalent weight of wool, but in woven fabrics wool is a better insulator. But silk long underwear is very light and compact.

Tipi Walter
11-10-2007, 15:34
Yes, silk and wool are both "natural" fibers (as are cotton, linen, etc.) and if there is a reason not to wear, say, wool over polypro, I can't imagine what that might be. That's like saying if you have cotton sheets you shouldn't use a fiberfill comforter, you must use down.

I believe wool is generally warmer than silk because it is woven or knit in such a way as to trap more air. It is very light for its bulk and insulates fairly well when wet. That has more to do with the fabric than the fiber itself. Silk is an amazing substance, and it is a great insulator, but the fabric it is woven into is generally very thin.

Loose silk fibers in a comforter are probably better insulation than an equivalent weight of wool, but in woven fabrics wool is a better insulator. But silk long underwear is very light and compact.

Very informative. I am contemplating a complete baselayer/mid-layer overhall and can't help but look at the Icebreaker merino tops and bottoms in some wearable system, etc. In the meantime, I am using a series of silk layers(3 tops)in preparation for my next winter trip and won't have time to order/recieve the merino.

I do have the old standby polypro/thermax tops, the usual sub-zero layering system under the fleece and down jacket, but the polypro is wornout and so my question.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-10-2007, 16:41
I was out ordering some new stuff today and noticed Fiddleback's site (a great place to buy quality base layers cheap) has a top that combines a polypro layer with a merino wool layer (http://fiddleheadpa.safeshopper.com/1/91.htm?985). Seems this might be OK after all.

namehere
11-10-2007, 19:14
i picked up a snazzy button-down silk shirt from a thrift store somewhere in VA for $3.50 during my hike and wore it for about two weeks. when it got wet during active hiking, three things happened:
1. it got wetter quicker than wool or poly
2. it felt cooler than wool or poly
3.. it stayed wet longer than a wool or poly

however, it dried quicker than either poly or wool when left hanging to dry overnight. it even dried out after a rainy/moisture-laden overnight. when it got wet, it would get heavy (as expected) and cling like saran wrap. with my pack on, it started to tear at the seams, definitely accelerated due to the wet/heavy periods, until one sad day the tear got so bad that i had to give up the shirt. silk does tend to tear and snag easier than poly or even wool. i think it would be better in warmer climates since it wears cooler than anything else i had tried during my hike. if they could make a very durable version of a silk shirt(ie. embedding stronger fibers throughout), i would have bought and worn it during the hot summer months. of the gear i bought and used during my hike, the only two things that eventually wore/tore through were my silk shirt and silk bag liner. layering silk with wool or poly may increase the longevity of the silk layer, but i would imagine not by much. silk IS very light when dry, but since it wets out so quickly and easily i think that the weight savings are miniscule. it is great for sleepwear. ymmv

Tinker
11-12-2007, 00:03
I tried some silk sock liners about 10 years ago. After several washings, they took on the look and feel of old cardboard. I haven't gone back to silk as a sock material, and really haven't considered it as apparal material, at least not underwear. Merino wool is gaining popularity among multi-day hikers because it doesn't stink as much as polypro (which is not as easy to find as it used to be - many people, I believe, really mean polyester when they say polypro). Polyester holds stink nearly as well as polypro, but is softer against the skin, though it dries slightly more slowly in my experience.
I've tried some of the treated polyester garments, and they don't seem to smell as much as the untreated ones.

JAK
11-12-2007, 07:55
I have learned that you should match natural fabrics with natural fabrics and keep synthetic fabrics together. Somehow the match of a natural and synthetic fibre isn't as effective.I've found just the opposite to be true, sort of. I use a wool as my primary layer, or layers, and use synthetics such as a 100wt fleece layer and a cheap light nylon wind layer as the layers I peel on and off over the wool to control warmth and ventilation. But I do see what you mean about what should or shouldn't go under a wool layer. I used to wear fleece or polypro under. Now I wear the fleece over, unless it is a really light skin layer. I think silk or polypro or polyester will work under wool as a skin layer, and so will wool. It is true of course that silk is a natural fibre, but I think it behaves more like a polyester or dacron (polyester) fibre than a wool fibre. Acrylic on the other hand behaves somewhat like wool, though inferior. There is a lot of variety in the behaviours of wool also. Some are better for really wet conditions, and some are considerably more durable than others. The main reason I think wool works better for people than polyester or cotton or even silk is because we are mammals, not machines, plants, or bugs. Still, I carry a complementary mix, capable of being worn effectively all at once, with the total package depending on the extremes of the season. Note that I am not an expert in these matters, but I am a lover of the art.

JAK
11-12-2007, 07:58
I should also mention I got a nasty nipple chafe with a silk shirt I bought, but have felt other garments that are like warm air. Clearly the quality and characteristics of silk can vary just as much as wool or synthetic fibres.

J5man
11-25-2007, 16:49
So do you guys still wear your normal nylon or poly pants that you would use in normal weather and just use the silk or wool long johns underneath or do you wear a heavier winter pant and the long johns?

Tipi Walter
11-25-2007, 16:58
So do you guys still wear your normal nylon or poly pants that you would use in normal weather and just use the silk or wool long johns underneath or do you wear a heavier winter pant and the long johns?

I have yet to find heavyweight silk bottoms and anyway, I like my merino bottoms enough to not want a change. For winter the only pants I take are a pair of goretex rain/wind pants to put over the merino bottoms(for basecamping, too hot for actual hiking). I'm pretty much against any kind of hiking pants, going with shorts instead, or the usual shorts-over-merino/polypro bottoms.

JAK
11-25-2007, 20:50
So do you guys still wear your normal nylon or poly pants that you would use in normal weather and just use the silk or wool long johns underneath or do you wear a heavier winter pant and the long johns?I don't wear hiking pants. I prefer hiking shorts, even in winter, but usually with sort of long layer underneath, and a wind pant also if I am cold. In winter my leg layers are as follows, and on a long cold trudge I will wear all of it at once:

from skin out:
0. two pairs of wool socks, one of which is a knee sock
1. wool long johns
2. 200 wt fleece
3. light wind pants
4. hiking shorts