View Full Version : Best Religous Questioning Book for Backpacking
I don't mean a book of pseudo-science written by a literary missionary; I mean a book that takes an objective scientific view that shows the holes in blind faith.
I'm doing a thru and am interested in taking a such a book along if I can find one that's light/durable enough. Any science loving Whiteblazers got ideas?
SGT Rock
12-03-2007, 10:17
Not hiking related. I know why you are doing this so no cute arguments about this.
Tipi Walter
12-03-2007, 10:36
Not hiking related. I know why you are doing this so no cute arguments about this.
Sgt Rock: It's hard to muzzle the human being, why not just move it to Sensitive Subjects?
My question is clear, and I don't do cute or kiss ass.
SGT Rock
12-03-2007, 10:38
Right. I don't want to muzzle anyone. But this falls under cute based on what happened in the Bible thread. I didn't just fall off the duce and a half.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-03-2007, 10:45
EWS, try books by Henry Madison Morris. They deal with scientific evidence in light of theological writings. If you want a more philosophically based book, may I suggest Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis. It is a treatise of what lead him to switch from atheism to Christianity - and the material is thought provoking regardless of where you stand.
It should help take the heat off of the Bible thread.
If I wanted to try to be cute I would've went with Non-Christian, Satanic, etc.
Nevertheless, any suggestions on books about religious skepticism from a scientific point of view?
SGT Rock
12-03-2007, 10:48
OK then. I stand corrected - but your timing sucks.
Flush2wice
12-03-2007, 10:56
Try Richard Dawkins. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins) I'm sure Amazon has his books. I heard an interesting interview but I haven't read his books.
saimyoji
12-03-2007, 10:56
It should help take the heat off of the Bible thread.
If I wanted to try to be cute I would've went with Non-Christian, Satanic, etc.
Nevertheless, any suggestions on books about religious skepticism from a scientific point of view?
Darwin's Black Box by Mickeal Behe. Good discussion on irreducable complexity. Not sure which side you're hoping to find evidence for: evolution or intelligent design, but this is a good read.
Also try the Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins.
Uncle Silly
12-03-2007, 10:59
The God Delusion. tho it's not out in paperback yet, it will be before most folk hit Springer next year.
i try to make sure any scientific treatises i carry are printed either on soft paper (for double use as TP) or very thin paper (for double use as cigarette rolling papers). :D
Dances with Mice
12-03-2007, 11:00
The Panda's Thumb, Steven J. Gould. Or any other book by Gould. Not really anti-religious. Pro-bioscience, I guess. Not a bad read on trail or off.
SGT Rock
12-03-2007, 11:03
ot a book - but a good read: http://www.perc.org/publications/articles/Crichtonspeech.php
You can print it and take it with you like Tipi Walter does with stuff.
Philosophy of Humanism by corliss Lamont...
http://www.corliss-lamont.org/philos8.htm
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Humanism.htm
great book with lots of suggestions for further reading
it included huminist manifesto I and II, creed to live by
Richard Dawkins certainly seems interesting.
I like this quote:
Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, when asked how the world might have changed, Dawkins responded:
Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labeled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful!
Uncle Silly
12-03-2007, 11:16
ot a book - but a good read: http://www.perc.org/publications/articles/Crichtonspeech.php
You can print it and take it with you like Tipi Walter does with stuff.
Interesting. He's right, from an anthropological standpoint (about repressing "religion" and having it crop up again elsewhere). In the same sense, I've argued that Science is our most prevalent modern-day religion. (The short version: what we call "religion" in primitive cultures is their set of stories that explain how the world works; to most "enlightened" individuals in the "modern" culture, it is Science that performs this function, moreso than the organized religions.)
It reminds me of the Apostle Rufus, in the movie Dogma: it's better to have ideas than beliefs. Ideas are easy to change; changing a belief is tricky.
D'Artagnan
12-03-2007, 11:18
I enjoyed Dawkins' books as well as Christopher Hitchens' works. Neither shook my faith but I enjoyed their arguments anyway. In interviews, Hitchens it quite an arrogant prig and I would imagine he enjoys jerking people's chains just for fun. I found Dawkins a little dry.
I mean a book that takes an objective scientific view that shows the holes in blind faith.
Are you genuienly seeking truth, or just looking to valadate your current beliefs?
Not a book, but two thought provoeking dvds, "The Privledged Planet", and "Unlocking the Mystery of Life" I belive Unlocking the Mystery, features Mickeal Behe.
Tommorow night, anyone in the Atlaanta Area is invited to the Cobb Vineyard Church 6:45 PM in Kennesaw, to see "The privledged Planet", and join in a discussion afterward. The Moderator, is very knowlegable on both sides of the arguement.
Not a book, but two thought provoeking dvds, "The Privledged Planet", and "Unlocking the Mystery of Life" I belive Unlocking the Mystery, features Mickeal Behe.
Tommorow night, anyone in the Atlaanta Area is invited to the Cobb Vineyard Church 6:45 PM in Kennesaw, to see "The privledged Planet", and join in a discussion afterward. The Moderator, is very knowlegable on both sides of the arguement.
He is a psuedo-science advocate, not what I'm looking for.
I would be interesting to see how the discussion afterwards is handled though.
ot a book - but a good read: http://www.perc.org/publications/articles/Crichtonspeech.php
Good Read, sounds like he was wound up, yet still thinking clearly when he wrote it.
I would be interesting to see how the discussion afterwards is handled though.
He allows, any question to be asked, with any attitude.
Grumpy Ol' Pops
12-03-2007, 12:12
Try The Naked Ape by Desmond Morris. The author examines the growth of religion through time based on the various stages of man's quest to walk (thruhike?) upright over the ages.
The Weasel
12-03-2007, 14:18
On topic: Mark Twain, "Letters from the Earth."
Off topic: Rock, if this is going to be "Straight forward," I think you should erase tirades here, as elsewhere.
dixicritter
12-03-2007, 14:44
Once again... please stay on topic
Try Richard Dawkins. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins) I'm sure Amazon has his books. I heard an interesting interview but I haven't read his books.
I finished Dawkins' latest, "The God Delusion" a few weeks ago. Essentially it is an argument for atheism. I don't think he makes that case very well. But I heartedly recommend the book for Christians willing to test their faith against the facts. And it ought to be must reading for those who believe every word of the Bible is true and the actual words of God.
Consider the various versions surrounding Jesus's birth. Mathew traces Joseph's descent from KIng David via 28 generations. While Luke has it 41 generations. Worse there is no overlap of names between the two lists!. The two versions are attempts by New Testament authors to show that an Old Testament prophesy that the savior would be descended from David and be born in Bethlehem.
The authors don't seem to notice that if Jesus was born of a virgin, Joseph's ancestary is irrelevant. And they concocted varying tales of how Joseph and Mary ended up in Bethlehem for the birth. Mathew has them living there all along and only later moving to Nazareth. Luke of course tells the somewhat implausible tale of the long trek to Bethlehem and the meetings with shepherds and wise men. All required by a Roman ruler who wanted a census based on where ancestors had lived a thousand years earlier.
There was a census -- though not one that was quite that illogical -- but it occurred six years after Herod died, making it somewhat difficult for him to have ordered Jesus's death on the cross 30 + years later.
Any way these and hundreds of other inconsistencies are all reported in Dawkin's book, along with looks at the brutal nature of the "God" that the Christian Church then and now professes to worship.
Weary
dixicritter
12-03-2007, 15:07
As with the thread asking for suggestions for Bibles, this one is asking for "Best Religious Questioning Book for Backpacking" not for the thoughts and feelings about the subject. As with the other thread, all posts not giving book references will be deleted as off topic, since this IS the Straight Forward Forum.
Please stay on topic.
As with the thread asking for suggestions for Bibles, this one is asking for "Best Religious Questioning Book for Backpacking" not for the thoughts and feelings about the subject. As with the other thread, all posts not giving book references will be deleted as off topic, since this IS the Straight Forward Forum.
Please stay on topic.
Are you saying that we should recommend books, but not say why we are recommending them. Anyway. Dawkins "The God Delusion" is a good trail book dealing with the subject of the thread -- especially if it comes out in a paperback edition -- in part because it is very well organized and has a lot of subheads, making it easy to read a few minutes at a time, which is all I ever find time to read on a long distance walk.
I read it mostly for a few minutes each night before getting drowsy. I found I could read between each natural break in the book in five or 10 minutes -- sometimes less.
Weary
dixicritter
12-03-2007, 15:31
That's not what I said Weary, nor did I delete your post, so relax.
Atheism is not exactly the same as anti-theism, except to some theists. Anyhow, I should think that something by Friederich Nietzsche or Jean Paul Sartre ought to be a good read. I haven't read any of it yet, but when I get a chance I want to read "Being and Nothingness" or "Nausea" by Sartre. Also in the category of existentialism is Soren Kierkegaard, who is credited with starting the modern existentialist movement. Interestingly he is neither modern (he is 19th century), nor atheist, although I think he may have been excommunicated if that holds any value. He held the view that faith was an absurd but neccessary leap, which pretty much guaranteed enemies on both sides of the fence. He was a swell guy though. He really was. They often get punished most severely. Speaking of which, one of my favourite philosophers of all time, Baruch Spinoza, 17th century, led a similar life to Kierkegaard, punished by all, loved my none, while trying to serve everyone. He is why I like to say "I understand that this is so" rather than "I know that this is so. This guyed eventually died of some lung disease, so that others could see. The irony is of course both tragic and beautiful. Such is life.
However I wouldn't read any of this stuff while hiking. I would go for something more classic, and simple. I would maybe read something like an introduction to philosophy, with particular attention given to the Cynics, and the Stoics, or if you are really committed to modern living, the Hedonists. :)
warraghiyagey
12-03-2007, 15:41
I find books like 'Pilgrim at Tinker Creek' - annie Dillard have me considering my own belief set more gracefully than the 'standards.'
"The End of Faith" by Sam Harris.
A decent read, though the last chapter belongs in another book... didn't fit with the rest of what he had written. An interesting look at religious faith in general, though the author is clearly a little angry. Still, his points are extremily well thought out and argued. A great book to mull over and discuss with other people. My priest friend and I have talked at length about this book, though we come from opposite ends of the table.
SGT Rock
12-03-2007, 19:09
On topic: Mark Twain, "Letters from the Earth."
excellent suggestion.
SGT Rock
12-03-2007, 19:17
Interesting. He's right, from an anthropological standpoint (about repressing "religion" and having it crop up again elsewhere). In the same sense, I've argued that Science is our most prevalent modern-day religion. (The short version: what we call "religion" in primitive cultures is their set of stories that explain how the world works; to most "enlightened" individuals in the "modern" culture, it is Science that performs this function, moreso than the organized religions.)
It reminds me of the Apostle Rufus, in the movie Dogma: it's better to have ideas than beliefs. Ideas are easy to change; changing a belief is tricky.
I did a paper in Anthropology class about this as well. I'll see if I can find it and put some of the sources up as things to read. They were not all about religion or questioning religion, but rather about the need to create religion like systems. Seems some things like athiesm and eco-ism have very similar characteristics to a religion.
For fiction books that question dogma look for "The Last Templar" or books like "Davinci Code" - yes they are FICTION but they bring up questions about how dogma is even formed.
Jack Tarlin
12-03-2007, 19:24
Those interested in the subject might also want to have a look at "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" by Christopher Hitchens.
Those interested in the subject might also want to have a look at "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" by Christopher Hitchens.
I put that in an Amazon search and got quite a few on tthe subject...
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&tag=mozilla-20&index=blended&link%5Fcode=qs&field-keywords=God%20is%20Not%20Great%3A%20How%20Religio n%20Poisons%20Everything&sourceid=Mozilla-search
tons of articles you can print here, written by Scientists, who are also Christian:
http://www.reasons.org/
a book:
Creator and the Cosmos (http://www.reasons.org/shop/product.php?productid=236&cat=51&bestseller)
examine the evidence.....
Might I recommend:
"The Case For a Creator" by Lee Strobel
"The Case For Faith" by Lee Strobel
Lee was a zealous atheist accomplished Chicago Newspaper reporter, and his books contain interviews with some of the most brilliant minds in America, both Christians and atheists. In the second book, there is a very interesting interview with a former Christian evangelist turned atheist. He also interviews some of the top scientists in their fields of speciality.
sasquatch2014
12-03-2007, 23:56
I think that Tipi had some great suggestion with his post I would through in there the possibility of Franz Kafka's "Steppingwolf" (no its not about the band). A diffrent but intresting paradime shifting thing that you may consider is to read the manfisto of the Una-Bomber. Insane and brilliant sometime blur. Plus he was my Philosophy advisiors brother-in-law. 6 degrees of seperation at work.:-?
take-a-knee
12-04-2007, 00:35
What's so great about Christianity? by Dinesh D'souza
http://www.dineshdsouza.com/books/christianity-jacket.html
This guy manhandled Chris Hitchens in a debate (U tube) and Dawkins is afraid to debate him.
For those that don't think science and religion must mutually exclusive, there are two great books by Gerald Schroeder:
- The Science of God
- The Hidden Face of God
Schroeder is an MIT-trained physicist and Orthodox Jew.
"The Demon Haunted World, Science as a Candle in the Dark". I believe it is out in paperback.:sun
hopefulhiker
12-04-2007, 02:23
EWS, I don't know of any science books that poke holes in religiion. I think that there are some phiilosophy books that might.. The school of logical positivism took a dim view of religion.. Betrand Russell, Karl Popper, Wiggenstein (sp) were logical positivists, Allen Greenspan said he was a logical positivist too... You might look at the Blue and Brown books, they are really little and are examples of Ordinary language philosophy.. Also there are books on artificail intelligence too that question the Cartesian dualism... just can't think of their names right now...
I've always been partial to Zen and the art of motorcycle maintinence, it is one of those books about faith, belief and scientific truth that you don't realize is about faith, belief and scientific truth until you've read it a few times. Also a great book to spark arguement/conversation in a shelter because every hippy you run in to will have read it and have an opinion... :)
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-04-2007, 08:01
If you have never actually read them, reading both the Bible and the Koran can be very enlightening and thought provoking in regard to feelings about religion in general.
I say Peter Pan would be a good read for you EWS...............
Flush2wice
12-04-2007, 09:21
Another good read is "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking. It's basically about the origin of the universe- big bang, string theory, black holes, etc. He does a good job of writing in a way that the average person can understand. There was a great movie with the same name but it wasn't as indepth. Half of the movie was a biography of Hawking.
Tha Wookie
12-04-2007, 11:23
The books of matthew, mark, luke, and john demonstrate some really intense events of religious questioning.
warraghiyagey
12-04-2007, 12:04
Another good read is "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking. It's basically about the origin of the universe- big bang, string theory, black holes, etc. He does a good job of writing in a way that the average person can understand. There was a great movie with the same name but it wasn't as indepth. Half of the movie was a biography of Hawking.
This was a great book and I found it interesting at certain points through when he reflected on his own religious beliefs.
Mother's Finest
12-04-2007, 13:32
Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy....or any of Adams books.
But why do you want to poke holes? It all comes back to faith anyway, science does not matter. This is coming from a non-christian. (I am a non-christian, not EWS.)
peace
mf
The Solemates
12-04-2007, 16:20
...i second lee strobel's books. they are great..
Christianity and its ways of thinking are an integral part of western thought and language. Even the questions and methodology of ancient greek philosophy are part of the cultural background that lead to chrisitainity.
You might want to check out some non-western philosophy. I'd recommend a Burton Watson translation of the Chuang Tzu. Before you decide to give up your job and go hiking in the woods (too late, good for you), like lots of the figures in the Chuang Tzu, make sure you do some backround research on China's Warring States period so that you can understand why these characters are leaving everything for the mountains.
sasquatch2014
12-04-2007, 17:54
I forget if it was Hideger or Buber that wrote this little gem. I would not suggest reading this on your hike if you are trying to stay on a schedule because after all it's about time and in the end you will possible decide that there is no such thing.
Bertrand Russell's book, "Essays in Skepticism."
Nightwalker
12-05-2007, 01:54
The books of matthew, mark, luke, and john demonstrate some really intense events of religious questioning.
Very good. And Mark is quite a quick read.