I mean forget your quilts and your ultralight packs-- who just throws themselves down on the ground with a survival blanket in front of a fire, and carries just a piece of bluetarp 4 or 5 feet square or a poncho in case it rains?

Could you hike with all you need in a waistpack, except for some food in a daypack or shoulder bag?

There are times when I would hike late into the evening and into the early morning hours when I would just curl up on side of the trail to get a couple of hours of sleep with just my wet weather gear on and a sleeping pad under me. But I still had my full thru-hike load with me. Weather permitting I would say yes to the waitpack/daypack combo - not in the winter nor up in the Whites though.

Could I? Yes, between too many schools in the Marine Corps and a couple of years of adventure races, I have a PhD in suffering. :-?

Would I? Not voluntarily. Not any more. :(

Could I? Yes, between too many schools in the Marine Corps and a couple of years of adventure races, I have a PhD in suffering. :-?

Would I? Not voluntarily. Not any more. :(

Oh, amen to that! My goal isn't to challenge the wild to battle. I rather approach the trail on friendly terms, keep it comfortable for both of us. I practice enjoying the outdoors with as little gear as possible, not just surviving it.

I certainly do not like to be shivering in bed at night.

Rough it...not me. As I used to tell my fellow hikers on the AT...."hiking the AT is not my punishment....it's my reward." I was not trying to prove anything to myself or anyone else. We all hiked through rain, cold, heat, etc but I didn't go out of my way for discomfort. I treated myself to nice places to stay, good town meals, good conversations and I got to know new and interesting people. My hike could be better discribed as just a long walk with my best friend. Life is good.

I mean forget your quilts and your ultralight packs-- who just throws themselves down on the ground with a survival blanket in front of a fire, and carries just a piece of bluetarp 4 or 5 feet square or a poncho in case it rains?

Could you hike with all you need in a waistpack, except for some food in a daypack or shoulder bag?::: Dino glances at suggested gear and runs screaming from thread :::

My question would be...Why?

I've hiked with just a space blanket, raw food, a windshirt, and a backpack. I didn't even have a shirt.... I won't do it again. Quilts and tarps add a lot of comfort for very little weight.

I mean forget your quilts and your ultralight packs-- who just throws themselves down on the ground with a survival blanket in front of a fire, and carries just a piece of bluetarp 4 or 5 feet square or a poncho in case it rains?

Could you hike with all you need in a waistpack, except for some food in a daypack or shoulder bag?

food is over rated. its water we need.
a friend of mine did 3 days 2 nites with a bed roll, water and a bible as a fast. but if your talking about throwing down a ground cloth putting your head on your pack for the night. yes.
hey, i was married. i did it in the backyard one too many nites:D

food is over rated. its water we need.
a friend of mine did 3 days 2 nites with a bed roll, water and a bible as a fast.

That does sound pleasant as a cleansing fast. I think fasting is best done in a situation where you can spend most of your day in a hammock, napping in the shade, listening to birds and maybe a nearby creek.

Though, instead of a bible, think I'd take a science fiction anthology. Used to love those when I went camping as a kid.

Does anyone here really rough it?



Chuck Norris does. :)

I have done that in the boy scouts and am now past that stage in my life.

You can have my Thermarest when you pry it from my cold dead body, till them I’m going to keep my little bit of comfort. That is unless I find something else just as comfortable.

No, but on day hikes in the summer (rare), I carry only what I intend to eat that day and a poncho. If I had to, I could and would, but wouldn't if I had a choice. For a bare bones overnighter, I could get by in non-buggy weather with a poncho-tarp, a 16 oz. hammock (including rigging), and a 1-1/2 lb. sleeping bag (see my Webshots pictures, though they need to be updated with the new bag).
In New England there are several stretches of the AT where fires are not allowed. I would like to try sleeping by a fire someday (with my sleeping bag nearby ;) ).

I'm with Bearpaw on this one. The operating question is ...WHY ??

I'm willing to "endure" ...but this old soldier it going to take adavantage of whatever creature comforts I can lay my hands on.

'Slogger

Got to agree with some of the older and wiser guys here, "Why" we have a saying in the British Military "Any fool can rough it" after all like superman says "hiking the AT is not my punishment its my reward. Of cousre it can be done but not by this dude anymore been there done it and most certainly aint doing it anymore. Though if anybody out there feels like trying out the experience I could provide a survival blanket or two.

Be thinking of you!! Happy shivering.

If anyone does this, please keep a journal and tell us all about it!
It's a lot of fun to live vicariously through an experience like that :)

I "smooth it" in my hammock.

I think many non-outdoors people have the impression that roughing it has to do with comfort, or in their minds lack thereof. I grew up backpacking, canoeing, etc... To me, roughing it had nothing to do with comfort, I was always comfortable in the bush. I do not believe comfort is gear dependent but instead knowledge dependent. Many of us could not just survive with little/no gear but be relatively comfortable. Our ancestors lived this way for thousands of years. Plus comfort is a relative/personal thing. But back to "roughing it". I always thought roughing it had more to do with doing it yourself and without modern conveniences. Now, I call it "unplugging". I use my computer everyday, when I go into the woods I no longer have cell phone reception (due to where I go) and I don't bring my computer of course, no tv, (anyone else singing the Gilligan's Island theme right now?) I go to the woods to enjoy the outdoors, I pass the the time hiking, collecting wood for a fire, cooking, just thinking. (I am not a distance hiker). Sorry for the length, in summary I would not be roughing it to a greater degree if I carried less gear, but that's just me and my definition. I know some who consider camping in a winnebago roughing it because that is how they detach from their modern conveneinces. I don't see it as enough for me, but for them it works. It appears HYOH is rather apropos at this point in my post. Later.

Iwho just throws themselves down on the ground with a survival blanket in front of a fire, and carries just a piece of bluetarp 4 or 5 feet square or a poncho in case it rains?

Les "Survivorman" Stroud? Seriously, like Bearpaw I'm the veteran of entirely too many schools during my Marine Corps enlistment. I did all the survival stuff because I had to learn it as part of my job and assigned billet. Would I do it now just for the heck of it? Nope. And I'll tell ya why. Because I'm not forced to do with less. I'm not an ultralighter, but don't believe in carrying a huge, heavy pack either. My pack has what I need along with a couple "comfort extras" like a small pillow and an MP3 player. Comfort, being a relative term, isn't the same to everyone. What I can do without someone else just has to have and vice versa.

I used to hike without tent so I wouldn't have to carry the weight, thus having to make it to the next shelter to grab a spot...those days are over :D

Chuck Norris does. :)

I heard Chuck Norris is so tough that under his beard there isn`t a chin..There`s just another fist.

Chuck Norris does. :)

Yeah, but Chuck Norris doesn't need a shelter. Rain won't fall on him without permission.

We are more than 20 posts into this thread, and the safety issue hasn't been directly raised yet. All you would need is a 50 degree night after a day of rain, and you could be in real trouble. Starting a fire when you are hypothermic and every piece of wood is soaked is not as easy in practice as it is in theory.

An ultralighter could likely get a bare-bones warm weather gear list down to about 5 pounds, so I see no reason to joust with death to try to prove a point by deleting items you may need to keep you alive. Just my .02.

Coss

Safety is paramount, in my opinion. Otherwise, I try to go pretty light.

But "roughing it?" No way! Long, long ago, my group of Boy Scout buddies had a saying, "Any fool can be uncomfortable." Yeah, ya' can go minimalist but, for me, that's not the point. I like to be warm, dry, well fed, and clean. And when I lie down to sleep I like to be comfortable.

It's intriguing how comfortable life can be with a dozen or so pounds in the pack.

FB

Consider this to be an addendum to an earlier post. I've been playing around with the closet full of ultralight gear and have come up with a 3.2 lb alternative to the "roughing it" concept described in the original post. Please note I'm not advocating for this list. The lightest base weight I've actually used is about one pound heavier, and I usually go out with about six pounds of gear. With that as a disclaimer, here goes:

Clothes:
Rainshield jacket 5.5 oz
fleece hat 1.2
100 wt long sleeve top 6.7

Shelter:
silnylon tarp in the 6 x 8 foot size range 8.0 oz
space blanket ground cloth, cut down 1.6

Sleeping:
sewn-through summer quilt with 6 oz down 12.0 oz
15 x 30 inch foam pad 4.0

Pack:
silnylon 1100 cu in 4.4 oz

Other:
trash bag liner, water bottle, iodine, TP, 1st aid, fire, etc, 7.8

Total: 51.2 oz, 3.2 lbs.

Note that there is no kitchen (cold food), tent stakes (sticks), extra insulation, light, hygiene, and it would not fit in a fanny pack. Again, I wouldn't actually camp with a list this spare, so this is just for demonstration purposes for temps down to the 40s if you wanted to be marginally safe and didn't want to have a lot of fun.

Coss

Progambo: I heard Chuck Norris is so tough that under his beard there isn`t a chin..There`s just another fist.

Yeah, but what isn't public knowledge that in that fist, there's a tarptent.

Did many 3 to 5 day trips with no food and only what fit in pockets,and still love doing it.

Did many 3 to 5 day trips with no food and only what fit in pockets,and still love doing it.

I've done a few weekends, using only what I carried in my wallet.

Camped Man Vs. Wilderness style, only without leaping over anything.

Camped Man Vs. Wilderness style, only without leaping over anything.

You mean you went to a hotel as soon as the cameras were off? ;)

I don't think the AT would be very condusive for a "roughing" it mentality.. if you want that sort of trip, plan a trip where you arn't actually planning on making miles and just live in the woods for a while...

When I was 18 I went on a 2 week trip with some folks. The second week I shared a blue tarp with a friend to save weight. The last night we let some friends use it and the two of us cowboy camped. We got rained on but it was summer and not to bad as long as I didn't move. I also took a lot of trips back then with no sleeping pad but it didn't seem like roughing it to me. Now I would call hiking with 50 pounds on my back roughing it.

Rough it...not me. As I used to tell my fellow hikers on the AT...."hiking the AT is not my punishment....it's my reward." I was not trying to prove anything to myself or anyone else. We all hiked through rain, cold, heat, etc but I didn't go out of my way for discomfort. I treated myself to nice places to stay, good town meals, good conversations and I got to know new and interesting people. My hike could be better discribed as just a long walk with my best friend. Life is good.

A most intelligent philosophy.

"An ultralighter could likely get a bare-bones warm weather gear list down to about 5 pounds, so I see no reason to joust with death to try to prove a point by deleting items you may need to keep you alive. Just my .02."

The most important thing I learned in college: there's a lot of things that I don't know.

Hey, maybe this dude will try it. Might help on his attempt.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30747

You could probably get a lot more miles in if you were too uncomfortable to sleep. :D

I hope he goes for it, and succeeds. :)

Like many of the other old military types, been there done that. Like to say I can remember how if needed, but again "why?".

just walk and get what you need....food,water.

I think many non-outdoors people have the impression that roughing it has to do with comfort, or in their minds lack thereof. ..
I do not believe comfort is gear dependent but instead knowledge dependent. Many of us could not just survive with little/no gear but be relatively comfortable. Our ancestors lived this way for thousands of years.

One of my hobbies is Living History, and as part of that I have learned a lot about methods used by the 18th century woodsmen. Many of the skills they used can make minimal equipment provide pretty good comfort with a little planning.

Most of the woodsmen would carry a single wool blanket, and an oilcloth made of sailcloth painted with linseed oil to waterproof it. The sailcloth would be used as a tarp when it rained, or to protect their gear when they were on the move. If needed, they could wrap up in their blanket with the oilcloth wrapped around them to sheild them from a cold wind.

They would do things like making a litter shelter at the base of an evergreen tree to sleep under, then packing it with dry leaves and grass for bedding and extra insulation. They would then crawl down in the pile of leaves and grass wrapped in their blanket, and sleep in a well protected and insulated shelter.

In some of my experimental treks I've made shelters like this, and you can be quite comfortable in pretty cool weather. At other times, I've slept on the ground with just a single blanket (not really cold weather) in pretty good comfort.

It's more about what you consider to be roughing it than what equipment you have with you. I can be pretty comfortable without a lot of equipment, and way less than most modern hikers would consider to be a minimum.

I'm sure that Sgt. Rock, LW and Bearpaw (and many others) know what I mean when I say that it's all in your head. When faced with a situation, you have to make the best of it. You may not be as comfy as you would be at home, but you can be remarkably comfortable with a little Positive Mental Attitude.

One of my hobbies is Living History, and as part of that I have learned a lot about methods used by the 18th century woodsmen. Many of the skills they used can make minimal equipment provide pretty good comfort with a little planning.

Most of the woodsmen would carry a single wool blanket, and an oilcloth made of sailcloth painted with linseed oil to waterproof it. The sailcloth would be used as a tarp when it rained, or to protect their gear when they were on the move. If needed, they could wrap up in their blanket with the oilcloth wrapped around them to sheild them from a cold wind.

They would do things like making a litter shelter at the base of an evergreen tree to sleep under, then packing it with dry leaves and grass for bedding and extra insulation. They would then crawl down in the pile of leaves and grass wrapped in their blanket, and sleep in a well protected and insulated shelter.

In some of my experimental treks I've made shelters like this, and you can be quite comfortable in pretty cool weather. At other times, I've slept on the ground with just a single blanket (not really cold weather) in pretty good comfort.

It's more about what you consider to be roughing it than what equipment you have with you. I can be pretty comfortable without a lot of equipment, and way less than most modern hikers would consider to be a minimum.

I'm sure that Sgt. Rock, LW and Bearpaw (and many others) know what I mean when I say that it's all in your head. When faced with a situation, you have to make the best of it. You may not be as comfy as you would be at home, but you can be remarkably comfortable with a little Positive Mental Attitude.

Kinda' frowned upon these days to cut branches from trees to make bedding or shelter, to build roaring fires against rock faces or in shallow caves for warmth, or to shoot game to eat.

If they were using dry leaves & grass for bedding & insulation, what did they do when it rained? The R value of wet leaves would be pretty low I would guess.

Kinda' frowned upon these days to cut branches from trees to make bedding or shelter, to build roaring fires against rock faces or in shallow caves for warmth, or to shoot game to eat.

If they were using dry leaves & grass for bedding & insulation, what did they do when it rained? The R value of wet leaves would be pretty low I would guess.

I don't remember saying anything about cutting anything, or making a roaring fire. I also didn't say anything about shooting anything. What I did say was that other people historically have had to deal with a whole lot less than any modern hiker could have at their disposal to use. We also don't have to worry a whole lot about loosing our scalp, either.

"Roughing it" doesn't have to be rough. Learning a few skills, and being williing to not have all the comforts of home, make it a lot more acceptable. Even without a lot of equipment, one can be realtively comfortable without a lot of the comforts that we usually carry.

Being in a survival situation is totally different than just hiking without a lot of equipment. In a survival situation, one does whatever one must do to survive. That doesn't mean that if you missed your breakfast, you can shoot a moose to "survive". What it does mean is that if you are in a situation where you're cold and have no other means of warming yourself, it is acceptable to build some means of sheltering yourself to survive. After all, shelter is generally accepted as the first need in a true survival situation.

As far as what they did when it rained is concerned, I know this sounds flippant, but they got wet. The most common thing I have found cited in journals and inventories is a wool blanket, or at least what was called linsey-woolsey, which is cloth woven with a linen warp and wool weft. Both materials are quite warm when wet, although the linsey-woolsey is a little less so.

People in the 18th century were much more acclimated to the outdoors than we are today. Everyone now thinks of the log cabin with a nice cozy fire in the fireplace to stay warm in the winter. It ain't necessarily so, folks. I've read of (and experienced) having a roaring fire going in the fireplace on one side of the room, and a bucket of water being frozen solid on the other side of the room. I have, of course, also been in cabins where you were nice and cozy warm, but not always. The people of the 18th century had different expectations, and being cold in the winter was part of it.

Being acclimated to the environment, those people also understood how to survive in circumstances that would kill many modern people. The longhunters and other woodsmen knew how to construct a simple shelter to stay dry, and hopefully to keep them warm. A litter shelter can provide a dry place in the rain if constructed well. It really depends on the environment you're in, but those woodsmen lived in true wilderness most of the time. In the area that white men occupied in the colonies during 18th century, there were vast tracts of virtually unbroken old growth forest. In other words, plenty of litter to be had.

A litter shelter can be made quite easily, and if you have a tarp, it can be pretty watertight. Even without a tarp, you can make it so that it is very water resistant, even without cutting anything.

I have done that in the boy scouts and am now past that stage in my life.

You can have my Thermarest when you pry it from my cold dead body, till them I’m going to keep my little bit of comfort. That is unless I find something else just as comfortable.

I'm with Bob! I Don't need to prove it to anyone now. Self knows I can do it.

I've done stuff in summer like that in summer. It was colder than I expected. Still, a bad night in summer is not too bad, as long as you have something and are careful about where you bed down. It is good to practice in summer what you can get away with, but you still have to be prepared for whatever climate extreme you might get, and local microclimates.

I mean forget your quilts and your ultralight packs-- who just throws themselves down on the ground with a survival blanket in front of a fire, and carries just a piece of bluetarp 4 or 5 feet square or a poncho in case it rains?

Could you hike with all you need in a waistpack, except for some food in a daypack or shoulder bag?


Well I guess this depends where one is hiking and for how long. 2-3 days in the deep south (like in Florida in the dry season) no problem.

Keep in mind..there are places, including several spots along the AT where having a fire is either impracticle or not allowed.

I have never met a hiker in my life that didn't value food or crave a hot meal at the end of the day. Isn't being able to eat lots of good food one of the reasons we hike in the first place?:sun

I would not think such a minimalist style is practicle for a long distance AT hike. I am sure some will try and perhaps even succeed but it sure don't sound like fun to me.

David (snickers)

the Marine comments above are spot on. those experiences, sleeping (or not) cold and wet with nothing but a poncho and liner were good times in retrospect. they did make us tougher and showed us how much we could endure. but despite what my mom always insisted, that was not their primary purpose. you carried less "living gear" so that you could carry more ammo, frags and claymores. im glad i know i can handle bad times and uncomfortable nights if i need to...but now the fun is tuning the gear till i get the perfect blend of comfort and mobility for me.

I don't remember saying anything about cutting anything, or making a roaring fire. I also didn't say anything about shooting anything. What I did say was that other people historically have had to deal with a whole lot less than any modern hiker could have at their disposal to use. We also don't have to worry a whole lot about loosing our scalp, either.

"Roughing it" doesn't have to be rough. Learning a few skills, and being williing to not have all the comforts of home, make it a lot more acceptable. Even without a lot of equipment, one can be realtively comfortable without a lot of the comforts that we usually carry.

Being in a survival situation is totally different than just hiking without a lot of equipment. In a survival situation, one does whatever one must do to survive. That doesn't mean that if you missed your breakfast, you can shoot a moose to "survive". What it does mean is that if you are in a situation where you're cold and have no other means of warming yourself, it is acceptable to build some means of sheltering yourself to survive. After all, shelter is generally accepted as the first need in a true survival situation.

As far as what they did when it rained is concerned, I know this sounds flippant, but they got wet. The most common thing I have found cited in journals and inventories is a wool blanket, or at least what was called linsey-woolsey, which is cloth woven with a linen warp and wool weft. Both materials are quite warm when wet, although the linsey-woolsey is a little less so.

People in the 18th century were much more acclimated to the outdoors than we are today. Everyone now thinks of the log cabin with a nice cozy fire in the fireplace to stay warm in the winter. It ain't necessarily so, folks. I've read of (and experienced) having a roaring fire going in the fireplace on one side of the room, and a bucket of water being frozen solid on the other side of the room. I have, of course, also been in cabins where you were nice and cozy warm, but not always. The people of the 18th century had different expectations, and being cold in the winter was part of it.

Being acclimated to the environment, those people also understood how to survive in circumstances that would kill many modern people. The longhunters and other woodsmen knew how to construct a simple shelter to stay dry, and hopefully to keep them warm. A litter shelter can provide a dry place in the rain if constructed well. It really depends on the environment you're in, but those woodsmen lived in true wilderness most of the time. In the area that white men occupied in the colonies during 18th century, there were vast tracts of virtually unbroken old growth forest. In other words, plenty of litter to be had.

A litter shelter can be made quite easily, and if you have a tarp, it can be pretty watertight. Even without a tarp, you can make it so that it is very water resistant, even without cutting anything.

Right on. When in the Scouts, my buds and I would make lean-to's and/or ground beds occasionally. I thought the shelters were worthwhile but the groundbeds not necessarily so. In any case, we never cut anything as the MD/VA/PA forests were pretty generous with already down materials. I'm not sure it'd be as easy out here in the arid Mountain West.

As for woodsmen, pioneers, mountain men, settlers, cattle drovers, etc...it's interesting to note that sleeping bags didn't make their appearance until sometime around the 1850s/60s. Despite 'camping' without a sleeping bag, survival rates were quite high.:D

IMO, acclimation and attitude play very big roles. You can indeed get 'use' to the cold and there's no question that one camper's shivering cold is another's comforting breeze. I don't like to be cold but I like to sleep with the windows open and on occasion in this or other forums I've seen whines about nighttime trail temps that are pretty close to my own bedroom's temp.

FB

I did the Fundy Footpath one year May 1,2,3,4. Rained continuously for 3 days while there was still snow in the woods. The flat sections of trail were basically a ditch full of ice water. Fortunately not too many flat sections. I did it with my usual gear. Blue foam pad, 30F rated bag, gortex bivy, small poncho/tarp. 3rd night my bag was wet at the bottom but actually dried out while I was sleeping. I would seem that gortex actually works. That was hardly roughing it though. I was never cold. Also, no enemy fire. I've never experience enemy fire. I've heard it can be a real bitch.

IMO, acclimation and attitude play very big roles. You can indeed get 'use' to the cold and there's no question that one camper's shivering cold is another's comforting breeze. I don't like to be cold but I like to sleep with the windows open and on occasion in this or other forums I've seen whines about nighttime trail temps that are pretty close to my own bedroom's temp.

FB

This is, I guess, why I asked the question at the outset. What can one get used to, and be comfortable with, rather than simply survive, if one has the right attitude?

I can open my bedroom windows and sleep under a blanket when the temperature is in the 40's or even the 30's. I wonder if that is comfortable for most people. I also wonder whether that would be comfortable for most people if they were out on the trial, rather than in the bedroom. (Part of comfort is knowing that respite is close by-- that's why thirst is so much worse when you are out of water with none nearby, rather than out of water with a stream within easy reach).

I suppose I could "rough it" I have the skill set to live off of the land indefinitely and can build a comfy spot to sleep out of just about nothing...

I try not to put that much 'work' into my 'fun'. I'm a fat guy rapidly approaching middle age, I'll bring my comforts, my food, my shelter and my vitimin I along and spend my evenings cozy curled up with a good book instead of constructing a shelter and grubbing for roots...

I don't remember saying anything about cutting anything, or making a roaring fire. I also didn't say anything about shooting anything. What I did say was that other people historically have had to deal with a whole lot less than any modern hiker could have at their disposal to use. We also don't have to worry a whole lot about loosing our scalp, either.

"Roughing it" doesn't have to be rough. Learning a few skills, and being williing to not have all the comforts of home, make it a lot more acceptable. Even without a lot of equipment, one can be realtively comfortable without a lot of the comforts that we usually carry.

Being in a survival situation is totally different than just hiking without a lot of equipment. In a survival situation, one does whatever one must do to survive. That doesn't mean that if you missed your breakfast, you can shoot a moose to "survive". What it does mean is that if you are in a situation where you're cold and have no other means of warming yourself, it is acceptable to build some means of sheltering yourself to survive. After all, shelter is generally accepted as the first need in a true survival situation.

As far as what they did when it rained is concerned, I know this sounds flippant, but they got wet. The most common thing I have found cited in journals and inventories is a wool blanket, or at least what was called linsey-woolsey, which is cloth woven with a linen warp and wool weft. Both materials are quite warm when wet, although the linsey-woolsey is a little less so.

People in the 18th century were much more acclimated to the outdoors than we are today. Everyone now thinks of the log cabin with a nice cozy fire in the fireplace to stay warm in the winter. It ain't necessarily so, folks. I've read of (and experienced) having a roaring fire going in the fireplace on one side of the room, and a bucket of water being frozen solid on the other side of the room. I have, of course, also been in cabins where you were nice and cozy warm, but not always. The people of the 18th century had different expectations, and being cold in the winter was part of it.

Being acclimated to the environment, those people also understood how to survive in circumstances that would kill many modern people. The longhunters and other woodsmen knew how to construct a simple shelter to stay dry, and hopefully to keep them warm. A litter shelter can provide a dry place in the rain if constructed well. It really depends on the environment you're in, but those woodsmen lived in true wilderness most of the time. In the area that white men occupied in the colonies during 18th century, there were vast tracts of virtually unbroken old growth forest. In other words, plenty of litter to be had.

A litter shelter can be made quite easily, and if you have a tarp, it can be pretty watertight. Even without a tarp, you can make it so that it is very water resistant, even without cutting anything.

My apologies. You did not say cutting anything or shooting anything, or building fires, but what I have read about the early settlers, that's what they did when it got cold, which is why I posted as I did.

From what I've read, they often cut pine tree limbs to sleep on, they built fires against rock faces to reflect heat back to themselves or found caves & built fires in them, and they were shooting animals for food to eat. (Usually deer instead of moose. ;) ) They sometimes even built long fires to warm the ground & then moved the fire aside and placed their blankets over the warmed ground.

Much of which could get someone in trouble with the law today on most public land. It's a little different climate today than it was back then is my main point. They did what they had to for survival back then, and it was considered acceptable to do all they did. For the most part today, it is not.

"This is, I guess, why I asked the question at the outset. What can one get used to, and be comfortable with, rather than simply survive, if one has the right attitude?"

I have hesitated to post since this thread seemed to take off in a different direction from your original question. However, there ARE people out there who do exactly what you say, under the right circumstances, and are quite comfortable with the results.

Please see Obie's 2007 SOBO TJ journal; he abandoned his tent, stove, etc early on. Of the 123 days for the journey, he spent 15 nights "under the stars" and only experienced two nights which were considered miserable (i.e., he rolled up in his tarp and crawled under a ledge to escape the elements).

Granted, in his post hike entries, he clearly stated that this style was NOT for the average hiker, and he definitely stated that he would never attempt this in winter conditions. He is physically a strong hiker and never felt that he was placing himself at risk.

hope this helps. LF

I mean forget your quilts and your ultralight packs-- who just throws themselves down on the ground with a survival blanket in front of a fire, and carries just a piece of bluetarp 4 or 5 feet square or a poncho in case it rains?

Could you hike with all you need in a waistpack, except for some food in a daypack or shoulder bag?

Dessertrat,

I wouldn't call ir really roughing it but I fit all my gear and food (5 days normally) in a REI Flash UL - 1050 cu/in. I don't consider it really roughing it, the less you carry the closer to nature you become. That the way I look at it.

Wolf

I put rocks in my shoes to make it fair for the other hikers. :rolleyes:

As I said in other threads, I just want to enjoy the outdoors.

Being a wimp, I'll leave the mucho macho hotdog stuff to other people.


My grandfather roughed it a bit in his trek of Europe inthe 1940s. Of course, he had an M1 rifle as well....

From what I've read, they often cut pine tree limbs to sleep on, they built fires against rock faces to reflect heat back to themselves or found caves & built fires in them, and they were shooting animals for food to eat. (Usually deer instead of moose. ;) ) They sometimes even built long fires to warm the ground & then moved the fire aside and placed their blankets over the warmed ground.

A good reflector fire is very effective, but you don't need to build it up against a rock face for it to reflect well. I have made reflector fires by just driving two sticks into the ground on the opposite side of the fire from where I intend to be, and then laying a few pieces of mid-sized firewood across them to make the reflector. If you lean the two uprights away from the fire just a few degrees, the logs laid crosswise against them will stay in place. The whole reflector needs to be a couple of feet back from the fire, but this works very weel, and you don't have to have a large fire to be comfortable.

The long fires you speak of were often made early in the evening, and in a pit. They would burn the fire through the evening, and then bury it about an hour before they wanted to lay down. It needed to be covered by a foot or more of dirt, but they would lay right on top of where the fire had been to use the warmth through the night. That was usually more of something that they would do when there were several of them in a camp.

One other little take off on the buried fire idea that was used was to find a tree or rock to sit against. They would dig a small hole about two feet in front of it about 8 inches in diameter and build a small fire in it. After the fire was well established, they would cover most of it, leaving a small hole where they could feed a few twigs at a time as needed. The woodsman would then take his blanket and wrap it around himself and sit between the backrest and the firehole with his blanket covering the fire hole and a small supply of twigs and small wood to feed the fire through the night.

I wouldn't recommend doing this with your silnylon tarp! :D


Much of which could get someone in trouble with the law today on most public land. It's a little different climate today than it was back then is my main point. They did what they had to for survival back then, and it was considered acceptable to do all they did. For the most part today, it is not.

I totally agree. We have a completely different set of circumstnces than they did, and quite frankly, I'll take what we have now instead of having to deal with the things they had to.

In today's world, we only have to worry about getting lost or hurt. In their time, they had to deal with hostiles (even many of the white folks were fairly hostile), disease, predatory animals, and vast unsettled distances. We are virtually always within 48 hours of civilization, except in Alaska and some few other areas of the US.

I put rocks in my shoes to make it fair for the other hikers. :rolleyes:

i thought that was why you gained all the weight.:banana

It's a good skill to see how small you can make an effective warming and drying fire. To make it really small it helps to insulate it from the wet ground as well as having a small but effective reflector behind it. Important to get real close. Another reason to wear wool. But wool ain't roughing it. Wool's just living it.

i thought that was why you gained all the weight.:banana

That's from the rocks in my pockets. Don't get me started on the rocks in my pack!

I've gone on fishing trips where I start out sleeping on the ground by the fire with a rock for a pillow under the stars and when it started raining rolled under my pickup to stay dry does that count. Of course we ate hamburgers, hotdogs and quite a bit of beer. Does that count as food rations. Of course if we go hungry we just got in the pick up and went to the store, but we did sleep with no tent or bag and not even a piece of blue tarp, does it still count as roughing it? People around us were in tents and RV's does it still count as roughing it because we didn't use any gear to pitch camp, LOL?

I put rocks in my shoes to make it fair for the other hikers. :rolleyes:
LOL, and yet I think you still summited before me. I summited 7 October.

the Marine comments above are spot on. those experiences, sleeping (or not) cold and wet with nothing but a poncho and liner were good times in retrospect. they did make us tougher and showed us how much we could endure. but despite what my mom always insisted, that was not their primary purpose. you carried less "living gear" so that you could carry more ammo, frags and claymores. im glad i know i can handle bad times and uncomfortable nights if i need to...but now the fun is tuning the gear till i get the perfect blend of comfort and mobility for me.

It was always all about having the right gear for the situation you were in. Back in the 50s when I was a scout they taught us to modify what was available in our surroundings to our needs. It included how to make a shelter, how to keep warm and how to find food. It was all good information, which is mostly not acceptable etiquette today.
In the 60s, it was all about going out heavy and coming back light. There were times when we hoped to make contact just to get rid of some of the weight we carried. We each carried a poncho. If it didn't rain you could lay on it or put it over you to keep some of the mosquitoes off you. It was better to be wet with the poncho on than with it off because it rained so hard it got to be almost like bee stings. If you got wounded you could be carried to an LZ on it. It was also the closest thing we carried to a body bag for ourselves.
Now our gear is lightweight and allows us to leave no trace while keeping us safe form the weather with an acceptable degree of comfort. Life is good.

no. i'm a backpacker, not a survivalist.

I mean forget your quilts and your ultralight packs-- who just throws themselves down on the ground with a survival blanket in front of a fire, and carries just a piece of bluetarp 4 or 5 feet square or a poncho in case it rains?

Could you hike with all you need in a waistpack, except for some food in a daypack or shoulder bag?


Two years ago, I went with a large group to Algonquin Canada for an 80+ mile trip for six days Canoe & Portage. The portages totaled some 15 miles of hiking with canoes and others heavy gear. At the last minute I decided to leave my 2.5 pound Slumberjack Bivy in the bus and just take a REI minimal Bivy instead. I slept in a two pound cheap bag and carried a twenty pound pack that can be described by most here. They added a six pound dry food bag and a shovel to my gear. Keep in mind I snore really badly. I have had several operations to reduce the Apnea and noise. Sleeping with the group is not an option. The first two days went without a hitch, flopping on the ground, zipping up in the bivy and staying away from the others. Then we were hit with the ultimate warm 70 degree night and humidity. I was the chicken cooking in a oven bag. The mosquito’s came out and I was miserable for two nights. I lost sleep and got dehydrated from the loss of fluids and blood. The next night the downpours started and I simply slept under an overturned canoe and was thankful the cool rain. They chastised me (well deserved) for going “too light” But after we got back the REI Bivy went back to the store, I sold off the self inflating mats and went even lighter. I learned a lot from the trip, but I won’t give up sleeping under the stars or using a medium sized Sil Nylon tarp and a Big Agnes mat & Bag. I now carry lots of Deep Woods OFF.

Dessertrat,

I wouldn't call ir really roughing it but I fit all my gear and food (5 days normally) in a REI Flash UL - 1050 cu/in. I don't consider it really roughing it, the less you carry the closer to nature you become. That the way I look at it.

Wolf

I was reading through the thread thinkin of you, Wolf , and the fanny pack you had in '96 on the PCT.

When you did catch up to us, you pulled out a 24 oz beer as i remember.!

I thought you had everything you needed except, I would have carried my "hummingbird" instead of that bivy sack you were carrying. Probably less than a lb. more. good job though!

sleeping out with nothing but a lighter is no fun. I tried it once in the last 6 years and that's enough. makes you think about what's important for sure.

ps. well, i had a little more than a lighter, i also had a rain shell, a candy bar and snow around to drink. no fun though

I will not go into the wilderness without my REI Espresso machine, Thermarest pillow, Cabella's folding chair, long handled axe, and black cast iron skillet. Oh yeah, also need my UL 15 piece spice rack.

Sometimes, I drink lattes without a shot of caramel syrup.

http://www.boss-inc.com/02front.html

Boulder outdoor survival school, among others, teaches how to "know more and carry less" but it doesnt mean you could logistically or legally do all of what they teach on an AT backpacking trip unless you were lost or in some other actual survival situation.

By logistically I mean most primitive wilderness living and survival skills take up a lot of time, you cant hike all day everyday and still find the time to make shelter fire and dinner. Gotta slow down or stay in one spot, which is the safest way to get found/rescued in a survival situation anyway.

There's a guy in the cell who's been fasting for a reason I can't remember
(world peace?). He's gettin' pretty hungry as Dietrich eats a sandwich at
his desk. Dietrich tells him there are people, 'breathairians', who believe
that food is unnecessary. The guy take a huge breath through his nose.
Dietrich, deadpan, says 'Don't stuff yourself'.

http://www.boss-inc.com/02front.html




Bad juju with this school. :O
http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2006/jul/19/man-dies-at-survival-school/

Two years ago, I went with a large group to Algonquin Canada for an 80+ mile trip for six days Canoe & Portage. The portages totaled some 15 miles of hiking with canoes and others heavy gear. At the last minute I decided to leave my 2.5 pound Slumberjack Bivy in the bus and just take a REI minimal Bivy instead. I slept in a two pound cheap bag and carried a twenty pound pack that can be described by most here. They added a six pound dry food bag and a shovel to my gear. Keep in mind I snore really badly. I have had several operations to reduce the Apnea and noise. Sleeping with the group is not an option. The first two days went without a hitch, flopping on the ground, zipping up in the bivy and staying away from the others. Then we were hit with the ultimate warm 70 degree night and humidity. I was the chicken cooking in a oven bag. The mosquito’s came out and I was miserable for two nights. I lost sleep and got dehydrated from the loss of fluids and blood. The next night the downpours started and I simply slept under an overturned canoe and was thankful the cool rain. They chastised me (well deserved) for going “too light” But after we got back the REI Bivy went back to the store, I sold off the self inflating mats and went even lighter. I learned a lot from the trip, but I won’t give up sleeping under the stars or using a medium sized Sil Nylon tarp and a Big Agnes mat & Bag. I now carry lots of Deep Woods OFF.


Mark,
Go after mid August...no bugs.
Algonquin is amazing!

geek

I mean forget your quilts and your ultralight packs-- who just throws themselves down on the ground with a survival blanket in front of a fire, and carries just a piece of bluetarp 4 or 5 feet square or a poncho in case it rains?

Could you hike with all you need in a waistpack, except for some food in a daypack or shoulder bag?

I have no reservations that I could and still do here and there. Submarine landing force and EOD training put me through all that training. Drop you somewhere and you find your way out sort o deal.

However, I think anyone could do it with the right attitude and knowledge.
others could do it and end up being sick, scared or worse, never wanting to go back in the wood again

Bad juju with this school. :O
http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2006/jul/19/man-dies-at-survival-school/

That whole situation was terrible. BOSS has modified the field course after Buschow's death to allow each participant to carry a bottle of water through the impact phase rather than just carrying a cup and relying on found water sources.

I'm not saying bad judgment on the instructors part didn't contribute to Buschow's death because from some accounts it sounds like that may have been the case. However, Buschow did hide the fact he was undergoing an enzyme therapy routine from BOSS in order to be accepted for the field course, and the county attorney said there wasn't evidence to warrant charges against the school.

NOLS and Outward Bound, probably the best known backpacking schools, have also had serious injuries and deaths on their courses. Backpacking and climbing can be risky, survival training has even more risks involved. Still really sucks for anyone to die that way though.

I'm planning to take the BOSS field course in '09 (if I can save the tuition money in time after my thru-hike attempt this year) so if I survive I'll let you know how it went. ;)

I've heard good things about NOLS, although they're very conservative.

I've heard of people going on outward bound trips, and the trips were very poorly planned and executed.

I have to watch how i teach a wilderness skill sometimes, I remember once, years ago, I taught a "scout" how to scour his alum mess kit with sand and/or fine pebbles...just as a demonstration. Two days later I receive a call from a mad parent telling me the kid did the dishes with sand from the sand box.

So, I go by the book with the scouts and reserve the other wilderness ways to myself or fellow trekers when we get going with the survival and basic needs techniques.

I did what you asked in Girl Scouts, 18 days pack trip, North Cascades, Washington State. I was warm and dry, because I brought 6 mil plastic, specified for the trip. Other kids brought cheap thin stuff that blew-out.

I get out, then and now, to have a good time.

Nowadays, I like my "super cool gear" I guess because hand-me-down boy scout and military surplus stuff is, well, so olive drab and I am soooo..... much more comfortable and can enjoy the entire "outdoor experience" so much more. No comparison.

I just do not think about the "wilderness" as about survival: it is our home. We are part of nature too.

I really, really like my "modern" outfit!

.."check it out" at my "vanity website".

I forgot.. I advocate having a fanny pack or light rucksack. Oh, duh.

http://www.ultralightbackpackingonline.info/shelter1.html

My idea of roughing it is to check into a Ritz Carlton only to find out room service has closed for the night.

Chuck Norris does. :)

Yeah, but rain is afraid of falling on Chuck Norris.

Yeah, but rain is afraid of falling on Chuck Norris.
==============================

I coulda used a little bit of Chuck's ora on my thru in 2003 ...

'Slogger

I mean forget your quilts and your ultralight packs-- who just throws themselves down on the ground with a survival blanket in front of a fire, and carries just a piece of bluetarp 4 or 5 feet square or a poncho in case it rains?

Could you hike with all you need in a waistpack, except for some food in a daypack or shoulder bag?

Not me. I hike to enjoy myself, not to challenge myself. My life is challenging enough and hiking is an escape. Maybe if my life weren't such a mess, but alas...

I have shivered my way through my last night. I bought a super 0 degree bag and love it. Happyness is.

Mags, I thought (being a guy who used to live in Fort Collins for many years) people from Boulder only sat around campfires smoking mother earth after a long day on the trail, I didn't realize that you had a school in Boulder for hard core survivalist (outside of Solider of Fortune Mag. that is)!

I meet a guy with a 4 pound base weight pack on the trail in NC this spring. It was kinda a cold, raw day and he really didn't look like a happy camper to me. As much as I'd like to be a super ultra light hiker, I think I'll keep carrying stuff which will keep me warm (and alive) on a cold, wet day or night.

However, for a quick overnighter in the mid summer and I know the weather is going to be nice, I can pack pretty darn light.

BTW, how do these old threads keep poping up?

<snip>

BTW, how do these old threads keep poping up?
Advanced Search. If you have any sort of interest about ANYTHING related to backpacking, hiking or LD hiking, search away. There is a TON of great info. Having said that, starting a new thread and asking questions will still provide you with some good, reliable help.

I heard Chuck Norris is so tough that under his beard there isn`t a chin..There`s just another fist.\

Red Bull is made from Chuck Norris Pee
If Chuck Norris gets in the ocean, sharks get frightened
Chuck Norris's teeth are actually implanted can openers
Chuck Norris can charge a moose, get him to submission, and give him a belly rub:D

When Chuck Norris orders Peking Duck, one billion people in China bend over.

"When Chuck Norris endores a Presidental Canidate, that canidate loses". Sorry to break up the love feast, a little humor never hurt anyone!

"When Chuck Norris endores a Presidental Canidate, that canidate loses". Sorry to break up the love feast, a little humor never hurt anyone!

When Chuck Norris makes a movie after 1993 it fails.

No offense taken double d:clap

Chuck Norris wears a toupee. :D

"He's a phony. And on his head, is the tail of a pony." ~Muhammad Ali~

people from Boulder only sat around campfires smoking mother earth after a long day on the trail


I drink wine instead. But, I am of Italian ancestry...

I have been known to 'rough it' during deer hunting season, but only if the weather is right.

Here in Wisconsin, in November, you don't have to worry about bugs, so if there is a little snow on the ground that I can tunnel into, I can have a quite comfortable weekend with just my hunting clothes and what I'm carrying in my pockets.

I don't really consider this 'roughing it', it's just spending the night in the woods so that I can stay near a particular spot or stay on a trail. I do always carry a waist pack w/ the 10 essentials and a few Snickers bars, and I won't stay out if there is rain predicted.

Roughing-it with, basically, just the shirt on my back, possibly a hip pack, and little water... no. I may sometimes have been spontaneous about taking a hike, but I always packed my backpack and lugged my 55 pounds over hill and trail.

However, speaking of roughing it, I noticed this post yesterday that might give you a chuckle...

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38396

To some, roughing-it might include, heaven forbid, giving-up cappuccino for a time :eek:

Happy Trails!

I haven't had a pint of Ben and Jerry's in a week. Does that count as roughing it?

Almost every September I take a 3 day weekend. No food, no poaching, I carry fishing equipment and a 22 rifle and some basic camping equipment. You would be surprised how good of a provider you can be with no extra chow. It's nice sitting by the fire listening to the elk bugle in the pigeon river country.

almost Every September I Take A 3 Day Weekend. No Food, No Poaching, I Carry Fishing Equipment And A 22 Rifle And Some Basic Camping Equipment. You Would Be Surprised How Good Of A Provider You Can Be With No Extra Chow. It's Nice Sitting By The Fire Listening To The Elk Bugle In The Pigeon River Country.

Nice Post.:)