suggestion for security on the trail [Archive] - Page 2 - WhiteBlaze

NorthCountryWoods

01-09-2008, 09:52

If people loved their backpacks and tents as much as they loved their guns, there'd be some danged in-depth conversations here on WhiteBlaze that I would find pertinent to camping and backpacking. Personal safety is one thing, the loving attention to every aspect of guns and gun ownership seems misplaced on a website devoted to backpacking. If we had 5 threads with hundreds of posts devoted to cars and the racing of cars, building engines, the best transmissions, etc, Whiteblazers would wonder what the heck's going on and how it all fits into hiking and camping. Nobody chimes in with a thread, "What type of souped up vehicle do you use to drive to the trailhead?" And then followed by hundreds of car-loving posts.

But since the isolated incident of the Meredith tragedy, many people here have jumped into the whole security-on-the-trail topic, what weapon to carry, who's to blame, are women more vulnerable, how to holster a handgun, live-fire exercises, even the use of a suitcase nuclear weapon said in tired jest and tired sarcasm.

Here's my theory: That the longer a person spends outdoors backpacking and camping, the less likelihood that person will be carrying a gun. Like someone else mentioned, show me someone walking the whole AT with a gun. Has anyone ever done it? And when you read accounts of hard-core backpackers and long-term trail walkers like Brian Robinson or Squeaky or Colin Fletcher, why don't they mention carrying a firearm? I know Fletcher was in the Royal Marines during WWII, just can't remember him ever mentioning carrying a weapon while out on his many backpacking trips.

Very rarely do you have polar opposites interested in a common activity.

Adding on to your theory- it's been my observation that the more remote areas of the country (off the AT), the more people carry. Which is odd when you think about it. Statistically, you face a greater threat from humans on the more populated trails than wildlife on the less populated.

JAK

01-09-2008, 09:53

I am ambivalent about guns. What bothers me is when 'gun culture' becomes to invasive. As a case in point, I don't find L.Wolf's opinion on this subject is invasive. I think it is moderate and well intended. But there are some folks out there, not on this forum, that think it is beyond irresponsible not to carry a gun and talk about them and practice them every day and I think that gets way beyond aggravating, especially when they bring a lot of political baggage and racist garbage along with it, as is often the case. Guns are not the problem. Gun culture isn't the problem either really, but much of the gun culture out there definitely does needs to get cleaned up. It's an assault on reason really, but it is not the only assault on reason in today's society. The gun talk on this forum is pretty moderate though, more aggravating than well intended, but still pretty moderate and harmless. I find it entertaining and thought provoking.

NorthCountryWoods

01-09-2008, 09:55

I am ambivalent about guns. What bothers me is when 'gun culture' becomes to invasive.

Which is more invasive....gun culture or anti-gun culture?

4eyedbuzzard

01-09-2008, 10:04

Very rarely do you have polar opposites interested in a common activity.

Sure you do, when the activity isn't directly related to the polarizing viewpoint. I participate of a golf DB. It's pretty much the same over there from that standpoint

Adding on to your theory- it's been my observation that the more remote areas of the country (off the AT), the more people carry. Which is odd when you think about it.

We have much less police presence is rural areas and there is a culture of self-reliance when it comes to personal protection. Lots of people carry compared to urban areas, its honestly not considered all that unusual.

Statistically, you face a greater threat from humans on the more populated trails than wildlife on the less populated

Yep.

SGT Rock

01-09-2008, 10:04

FWIW, it is a concern that should be discussed ahead of time for those that are concerned. I'm a gun owner, user, and avid backpacker. I don't think a pistol is really needed for the trail either.

But others may be thinking they are for whatever reason, be it recent events or culture or whatever. Whenever I talk about hiking at work, the first question I usually get asked is what kind of gun I carry - and that is a cultural think for the culture I work in. It doesn't offend me at all to talk about it. And I tell them the same thing I say here.

So, in the end, my point is I am pretty sure that the vast majority of hikers will find it totally unneeded to have a gun on the trail. They will probably figure it out ahead of time through the discussions here, or they may have to wait and figure it out after they walk a few miles and realize there ain't toothless hillbilly rapist at every trail head waiting to take off with their credit cards and goretex. But some have indicated they think we shouldn't have this discussion - if they really feel that way they can stop discussing it by just ignoring these threads. But by not discussing it, you won't change anyone's minds about carrying ahead of time. And if they do discuss it, the best way to convince people not to carry is not to treat them as some reactionary gun toting paranoid - it is to honestly discuss the issue. Some are doing well at that. Thanks for contributing. Now back to my spider hole.

Tin Man

01-09-2008, 10:05

Which is more invasive....gun culture or anti-gun culture?

Extreme positions on either side.

yaduck9

01-09-2008, 10:10

Some where in the "complete walker" Colin Fletcher did describe using a 44 magnum handgun in Alaska... the story went like this ( I have to paraphrase )

A Grizzly meanders close to Colin's campsite and Colin quickly reaches for the Handgun..........and his tin cookset. He raises both into the air and bangs them together. He creates so much noise the bear turns round and runs off into the country side.

I think that was the only time he documented carrying a handgun and it was only because a ranger insisted he borrow and carry one.

Just my two cents.

Y a duck? .........why not.

NorthCountryWoods

01-09-2008, 10:11

Extreme positions on either side.

Possible, but how is someone fighting to keep their rights invasive?

Tin Man

01-09-2008, 10:11

Whenever I talk about hiking at work, the first question I usually get asked is what kind of gun I carry - and that is a cultural think for the culture I work in.

This could be a key point. I wonder how many advocating guns are current or ex-military or police force who are accustomed to carrying a gun as part of their profession, see more bad stuff, and feel more comfortable carrying.

SGT Rock

01-09-2008, 10:12

It's quite possible. I carried for awhile but realized it wasn't worth the hassle.

NorthCountryWoods

01-09-2008, 10:14

...its honestly not considered all that unusual.

The odd comment was directed to the next sentence-

Statistically, you face a greater threat from humans on the more populated trails than wildlife on the less populated.

JAK

01-09-2008, 10:15

Possible, but how is someone fighting to keep their rights invasive?I think both 'gun culture' and 'anti-gun culture' are equally invasive when either one rules out the third alternative.

NorthCountryWoods

01-09-2008, 10:18

I think both 'gun culture' and 'anti-gun culture' are equally invasive when either one rules out the third alternative.

Which is....?

warraghiyagey

01-09-2008, 10:18

I think both 'gun culture' and 'anti-gun culture' are equally invasive when either one rules out the third alternative.

Which is....?
Some guns . . . once in awhile?

JAK

01-09-2008, 10:19

Exactly, and without so much fuss.

JAK

01-09-2008, 10:20

... but with plenty of latitude on either side of the middle.

Tin Man

01-09-2008, 10:22

I think both 'gun culture' and 'anti-gun culture' are equally invasive when either one rules out the third alternative.

Yes. I was not arguing that speaking up for ones right is invasive. Both sides of the issue tend to argue indiscriminately about where the limits on these rights should be.

warraghiyagey

01-09-2008, 10:22

... but with plenty of latitude on either side of the middle.
I think you just rained on the (feces) parade.:rolleyes:

NorthCountryWoods

01-09-2008, 10:22

Who decides "some"? Anti's? Pro's? Gubment?

NorthCountryWoods

01-09-2008, 10:24

I think you just rained on the (feces) parade.:rolleyes:

That's awesome.

New favorite quote.

warraghiyagey

01-09-2008, 10:24

Who decides "some"? Anti's? Pro's? Gubment?
Judge Ito.

CoyoteWhips

01-09-2008, 11:05

After a short time, nearly all practical arguments are covered in these handgun threads. After that, it's pretty much who has the attention span to keep writing them over and over.

While I don't think my security is increased by a significant level by carrying a pistol, I am equally certain that my security is relatively unaffected by trying to get other people to stop carrying theirs.

Can you take away a man's fear with just persuasion? In most cases, no.

If I see you at a shelter openly carrying a firearm, odds are better than even you won't see me. I know you didn't bring a firearm because it makes a good stake mallet. I'd rather not sleep near somebody with that much fear.

So, yeah, it works both ways. I am carrying a stay-away-from-guns. It's lighter than even modern plastic composite firearms and I hardly ever have to pull it out.

Captn

01-09-2008, 12:13

I would be very surprised.
Most AT hikers don't carry or at least where you would notice. I would think you are a nut, a showoff, or something worse.
Hiking is what it is. Guns "dangling" isn't what you expect when hiking.
Rounding a corner on the trail and seeing a hunter wouldn't bother me but seeing your example would.

I would not think of it at all at a firing range.
I shoot skeet weekly at a club where everyone there has a shotgun. Don't think anything of it.

I suggest you dangle at every shelter you come to and see how long you keep that piece. Everyone on the trail would soon know about you.
I expect a deputy would have some real interesting questions for you at the first cross roads.

CCW means CONCEALED .... not dangling

I carry other stuff around that would dangle if I didn't conceal them ... and no one wants to see them either.

warraghiyagey

01-09-2008, 12:15

CCW means CONCEALED .... not dangling

I carry other stuff around that would dangle if I didn't conceal them ... and no one wants to see them either.
Another good argument against the mini-kilt.
:p

Captn

01-09-2008, 12:19

Another good argument against the mini-kilt.
:p

To many tick hungry Flamingos around anyway .....

Captn

01-09-2008, 12:23

Several polymer framed handguns with hollow point rounds totaling under 1 lb have been suggested. Kinda fills both the ultralight and fanatic categories. :rolleyes: :D

Can anyone summarize the choices?

Lone Wolf

01-09-2008, 12:51

I'm likin' the S&W model 442 wheel gun thanks to Cuffs suggestion

4eyedbuzzard

01-09-2008, 13:13

FWIW, I have seen many gun owners here who have defended their right and/or explained their reasons for carrying so that others who have asked understand that decision. They haven't tried to convince others that their personal choice should mandate that others should carry. I can't tell any other person what an acceptable level of risk is when making the choice to carry or not. Yours should be an informed, personal decision, weighing both the possible benefit of carrying vs the large responsibility and often times inconvenience of choosing to do so. Most make an informed choice not to carry.

From reading all these posts though, there is a small but fanatical anti-gun contingent that simply doesn't like the general idea of informed personal choice regarding firearms. They seem to want to impose their personal assessment and choice as the only reasonable one, decide for others what any acceptable level of risk is, and also to then often mock those who come to conclusions and choices that differ with theirs.

The reality is that crime is unlikely, both on the trail and off. But it does happen. Statistically, your chances of becoming a victim are very small. But make no mistake, every violent crime statistic represents a real live human victim, not just a number to be cavalierly dismissed. It's easy to downplay the acceptance of and response to risk when talking about crime statistics - 'cause the victims aren't around to join in the conversation.

Gray Blazer

01-09-2008, 13:58

This thread is about security on the trail and what it brought to my mind was not about packing heat, but about what the authorities who are out there to protect us from ourselves have in mind to do this year. Will there be more "trail police" out there? Will they be checking backpacks? Will there be firearm sniffing dogs out there? Will there be pot sniffing dogs out there? Will there be packsniffers out there?

Lone Wolf

01-09-2008, 14:01

PhoenixGSU

01-09-2008, 14:03

I'd rather not sleep near somebody with that much fear.

Carrying has nothing to do with being fearful. Do you not wear a seatbelt in the car?

Tin Man

01-09-2008, 14:03

Tin Man

01-09-2008, 14:04

Carrying has nothing to do with being fearful. Do you not wear a seatbelt in the car?

Seat belts don't discharge lethal projectiles.

Gray Blazer

01-09-2008, 14:04

packing heat is a security suggestion

Yeah, I know. I'm just wondering how many of our rights will we be forced to give up because of stupid people. BTW, my handgun fits in my pocket and will kill a bear if held up to his head.

Tin Man

01-09-2008, 14:09

Yeah, I know. I'm just wondering how many of our rights will we be forced to give up because of stupid people. BTW, my handgun fits in my pocket and will kill a bear if held up to his head.

While you are close enough to hug the bear, I will be running for help. You will need it if you survive the experience.

Gray Blazer

01-09-2008, 14:09

Didn't you hear? Airline-like security checkpoints are being installed at all trail heads. :rolleyes:
I'll remember you predicted that when it happens. :D We Floridiots used to be able to camp anywhere in the Withalacoochee State Forest until the authorities got tired of cleaning up the huge piles of broken beer bottles. That's just one example.

Gray Blazer

01-09-2008, 14:10

While you are close enough to hug the bear, I will be running for help. You will need it if you survive the experience.LOL, the bears are scared of my camera. I'm just saying.

Tin Man

01-09-2008, 14:11

And I agree carrying is a personal choice, but please keep it out of sight. I don't want to mistake a good guy for a monster.

Tin Man

01-09-2008, 14:12

LOL, the bears are scared of my camera. I'm just saying.

Focus on where the bear is before you focus the camera. I'm just saying. :)

PhoenixGSU

01-09-2008, 14:18

Seat belts don't discharge lethal projectiles.

But you're riding inside of one.

Mark57

01-09-2008, 14:47

Sadly, I think the common thread between the victim and the POI was their dogs, leashed or unleashed. I honestly believe if she had not had her dog she would still be alive. just saying.

That is sad but true and more than likely exactly what happened. Both had dogs. Hilton used this as his open door to get her to trust him and let her guard down. She was last seen coming down Blood Mtn toward the parking lot access trail. Several other hikers saw Meredeth with Hilton on the trail. He gained her trust, she lowered her guard and she turned her back to him long enough to hit her over the head to subdue her.
Police have said she was alive for about 3 days with him before he killed her with blunt force trama to the head. He then decapitated her.
This whole story really bothers me that there truely are those out there that could do something like that to another. The very act of body mutilation is beyond me. This man isnt human. he is a rabid animal that needs to be dealt with immediately.

Tin Man

01-09-2008, 14:55

But you're riding inside of one.

Ahh, but much like rifles and shotguns, when wielded as a weapon vehicles are intended to kill squirrels and deer. Handguns are only for killing people.

NorthCountryWoods

01-09-2008, 15:17

Ahh, but much like rifles and shotguns, when wielded as a weapon vehicles are intended to kill squirrels and deer. Handguns are only for killing people.

Yeah, cars never kill people.:rolleyes:

Tin Man

01-09-2008, 15:20

Yeah, cars never kill people.:rolleyes:

They are not made for the express purpose of killing people. Handguns are, not that some evil people don't need killing. Just saying.

dessertrat

01-09-2008, 15:33

They are not made for the express purpose of killing people. Handguns are, not that some evil people don't need killing. Just saying.

Handguns are not weapons. They are legitimate tools useful for killing evil people.

JAK

01-09-2008, 15:38

Handguns are not weapons. They are legitimate tools useful for killing evil people.1. Isn't that what weapons are?
2. Aren't they also illegitimate tools useful for killing good people?

warraghiyagey

01-09-2008, 15:40

Handguns are not weapons. They are legitimate tools useful for killing evil people.
Ummm. . . have we lost cabin pressure?

NorthCountryWoods

01-09-2008, 15:41

They are not made for the express purpose of killing people. Handguns are, not that some evil people don't need killing. Just saying.

No, but the do about 29 times as good a job every year.

4eyedbuzzard

01-09-2008, 15:54

Handguns are only for killing people.

With concealed carry size handguns, generally true. Yet when drawn on a criminal they are usually not fired, as most times the criminal simply runs away. Don't underestimate the deterrence factor of displaying the ability to use lethal force. Most times it never has to be used.

dessertrat

01-09-2008, 15:55

Ummm. . . have we lost cabin pressure?

No. (Have you no sense of humor?).

But here's the thing-- sometimes people should be killed. Therefore, it is not necessarily bad to have a device to kill them with.

warraghiyagey

01-09-2008, 16:00

No. (Have you no sense of humor?).

But here's the thing-- sometimes people should be killed. Therefore, it is not necessarily bad to have a device to kill them with.
That device is largely the device of the criminals, not the victims.
And yes I do have a sense of humor, so hhmmmmph.
:p

Tin Man

01-09-2008, 16:20

No, but the do about 29 times as good a job every year.

Yeah, those are accidents of people going about their daily activity. How many more accidents would there be if everyone carried all the time in their daily activity? "I was in front of you in line for the hotest new game console", bang! But I digress.

I am not against handguns. I just think they don't belong in the hands of everyone, nor should fear be promoted so that people who will not be responsible gun owners, suddenly run out and arm themselves.

Nearly Normal

01-09-2008, 16:50

No. (Have you no sense of humor?).

But here's the thing-- sometimes people should be killed. Therefore, it is not necessarily bad to have a device to kill them with.

I'm afraid I can't disagree with you.
The only thing is, the defense "he needed killin" don't hold much water anymore.
This nut job bum that killed Meredith will probably not, no matter how much he needs it.

CoyoteWhips

01-09-2008, 17:36

Carrying has nothing to do with being fearful. Do you not wear a seatbelt in the car?

Yes, because I fear injury in case of an accident and seatbelts have been shown to help.

Yeah, cars never kill people.:rolleyes:

Seatbelts don't kill people. Purely a defense device. Guns, however, are often offensive.

PhoenixGSU

01-09-2008, 18:25

Yes, because I fear injury in case of an accident and seatbelts have been shown to help.

Seatbelts don't kill people. Purely a defense device. Guns, however, are often offensive.

Thats opinion. It depends on how you use a gun. If you use it to defuse a situation or as a deterrent to crime, its in defense.

CoyoteWhips

01-09-2008, 19:10

Having pretty well covered guns, here's an additional suggestion.

Women in particular are vulnerable to preditors because they've been taught to be pleasant.

"I'm having trouble fixing this emergency light on my truck. Could you hand me the screwdriver from inside the cab?"

Correct answer: "I'm not freekin' AAA. Get it yourself, ya lazy bastid."

Don't let anybody put you in a vulnerable position because you feel like you have to be polite. Try to practice a little "attitude" every day.

"We'll be in the meeting room. Could you bring us some coffee?"

"I'm not freekin' Howard Johnson. Get it yourself, ya lazy bastid."

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 07:44

Tin Man

01-15-2008, 07:55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_QjEL0uUgo

We could use a few more dead offenders.

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 07:55

Uncle Ted for prez

Frolicking Dinosaurs

01-15-2008, 08:14

Sweet mother of pearl.... I had no idea Ted Nugent http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b47/lowcarbscoop/Smileys/Smiley-commandogun_smilie.gifwas such a gun person http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b47/lowcarbscoop/Smileys/smiley_gun_sniper.gif:banana

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 08:15

of course you did :D

Heater

01-15-2008, 08:23

Buncha gun weilding scaredy cat whimps. :rolleyes:

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 08:29

Buncha gun weilding scaredy cat whimps. :rolleyes:

what a wanker lib :rolleyes::banana

Tin Man

01-15-2008, 08:32

I'd love to poll wanker lib victims to see their views after they were attacked, but I don't think it would be appropriate to dig them up.

4eyedbuzzard

01-15-2008, 08:37

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 08:39

ted don't golf

Heater

01-15-2008, 08:43

what a wanker lib :rolleyes::banana

It must suck going through life scared of everything and everyone all the time. Not much fun.

:rolleyes::banana

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 08:44

It must suck going through life scared of everything and everyone all the time. Not much fun.

:rolleyes::banana

what a wanker lib

Heater

01-15-2008, 08:48

what a wanker lib

What a sceerdie cat. :rolleyes::banana

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 08:51

hook, line, sinker

weary

01-15-2008, 09:00

Lone Wolf:

You hike more than most of us. How many times have you used your gun on the trail to "defuse" a situation, or to defend yourself?

Weary

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 09:02

i don't carry a weapon on the AT.

STEVEM

01-15-2008, 09:08

i don't carry a weapon on the AT.

Why not?

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 09:11

men are rarely, if ever, assaulted/raped/murdered on the AT. mostly women are. if i were a women, i would pack

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 09:17

men are rarely, if ever, assaulted/raped/murdered on the AT. mostly women are. if i were a women, i would pack

if i carried it would be to protect others. you never know when you'll come upon some scumbag doing harm to someone

Heater

01-15-2008, 09:20

men are rarely, if ever, assaulted/raped/murdered on the AT. mostly women are. if i were a women, i would pack

I guess I can go along with that but any man that packs on the AT 'aint nothing but a little sceerdie cat.

:eek:

mrc237

01-15-2008, 09:22

I guess I can go along with that but any man that packs on the AT 'aint nothing but a little sceerdie cat.

:eek:

Pussy cat is more like it!

take-a-knee

01-15-2008, 09:32

I guess I can go along with that but any man that packs on the AT 'aint nothing but a little sceerdie cat.

:eek:

I guess I resemble that remark, a night HALO-jumpin', PSD sceerdie cat. Maybe it ain't a lack of cajones as much as it is a surplus of smarts and savvy?

Heater

01-15-2008, 09:39

Heater

01-15-2008, 09:45

I guess I resemble that remark, a night HALO-jumpin', PSD sceerdie cat. Maybe it ain't a lack of cajones as much as it is a surplus of smarts and savvy?

Yippers. I gotta surplus if'n anyone needs to buy some... :D

I also gotta extra set of cojones layin' around here somewhere.

$900 for the set. Maybe I should post this in the buy/sell gear forum?

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 09:48

here's my next purchase
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14760&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15704&isFirearm=Y

mrc237

01-15-2008, 09:52

take-a-knee

01-15-2008, 11:19

here's my next purchase
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14760&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15704&isFirearm=Y

Good choice. Bianchi makes those little speed strips that work well for carrying a few (6) extra rounds, not as fast as a speed loader but a lot more compact.

Heater

01-15-2008, 11:32

Good choice. Bianchi makes those little speed strips that work well for carrying a few (6) extra rounds, not as fast as a speed loader but a lot more compact.

Yeah, and with no trigger it will not hang on your G-string thong strap. :D

STEVEM

01-15-2008, 11:32

Captn

01-15-2008, 11:37

http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_Undercover_13811.html

http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_Undercover_53820.html

http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_Dixie_72313.html

The Doctor

01-15-2008, 12:45

The Doctor

01-15-2008, 12:46

dessertrat

01-15-2008, 13:00

No need for firearms. If I see any suspicious person(s) on the trail that threatens me(or others) they are gonna have one hell of a day when I douse them with Bear Mace and beat them mercilously into submission. There will likely be knees and elbows to the face, a rock to the kneecap and a quick call to the paramedics/police so they can live (in pain) to face up to their criminal charges.

Your word against theirs. Remember that. Dead men tell no tales; live criminals lie like rugs. Maybe they'll say you're the bad guy, you misinterpreted a simple question as a threat, etc.?

Tipi Walter

01-15-2008, 14:33

Lone Wolf:

You hike more than most of us. How many times have you used your gun on the trail to "defuse" a situation, or to defend yourself?

Weary

Let's get back to this one. Any replies from the armed AT crowd??

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 14:35

the unarmed ones are dead

_terrapin_

01-15-2008, 14:37

Let's get back to this one. Any replies from the armed AT crowd??

Take-a-knee related a story a while back about some abusive drunken hikers... scared away by the mere brandishment of his gun.

The only time I saw armed hikers (in the DAKs, carrying openly at their campsite) I make a point of camping far away from them.

Blue Jay

01-15-2008, 14:40

"I'm having trouble fixing this emergency light on my truck. Could you hand me the screwdriver from inside the cab?"

Correct answer: "I'm not freekin' AAA. Get it yourself, ya lazy bastid."

Don't let anybody put you in a vulnerable position because you feel like you have to be polite. Try to practice a little "attitude" every day.

"We'll be in the meeting room. Could you bring us some coffee?"

"I'm not freekin' Howard Johnson. Get it yourself, ya lazy bastid."

Yes, but will anyone 50 miles from Bastan understand.

4eyedbuzzard

01-15-2008, 15:54

...if i were a women, i would pack

:-? I'm thinkin' there might be a lot less pink blazing in 2008.

Lone Wolf

01-15-2008, 16:03

John Stossel on gun control http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyoLuTjguJA

Captn

01-15-2008, 19:38

I don't think these live up to the SUL creed!

The 22Mag is only 6 oz ..... 2 oz lighter than my bear spray.

And before anyone jumps in to talk about how limited a 22mag is ... or even the 22 LR .... let me paraphrase something I read some years ago ...

It went something like this ..... if you really face facts, when comparing to a rifle or a shotgun, NO handgun has very much stopping power.

But there is a sure fire, 100% positive way to double the stopping power of any handgun round ...... put another hole in em.

Want to tripple your stopping power. .... then put three holes in em.

A .22 is a hell of a lot better weapon than any other caliber if you can shoot it with skill ... compared to someone who has a .38 and never practices, at least.

4eyedbuzzard

01-15-2008, 19:51

True, shot placement trumps power. But accurate shot placement is at best difficult in a combat/ defensive shooting situation, especially as most private citizens rarely encounter or even train for such type of shooting. That being the case, a more powerful round is always an advantage. There are many lightweight handguns under 1 lb loaded firing .380 auto, 9mm, and even .357mag/.38 special, which are far better defensive loads than any .22, .25, or .32. Add to all this that the smaller the physical size of a handgun the more difficult is is to shoot accurately due to grip size, barrel length, sight radius(though not a huge concern at close range), etc.

Kirby

01-15-2008, 19:57

My AK 47 came in the mail yesterday.

Kirby

shelterbuilder

01-15-2008, 20:15

"You'll shoot your eye out, kid!";)

tchiker

01-15-2008, 22:21

tchiker

01-15-2008, 22:34

And P.S. I sure wouldn't shoot a bear unless it was really charging me and fairly close. I would fire a round into the dirt first just to try to scare it away. Shooting it would be the last resort, especially because then you'd have to explain it to the rangers/police and that would no doubt be a huge headache.

Alligator

01-15-2008, 22:43

I'm fairly certain there have been fewer deaths on the AT caused by bears than than there have been murders Tchiker.

dessertrat

01-15-2008, 22:52

4eyedbuzzard

01-15-2008, 22:59

Not directly on the AT, but there have beem two fatal bear attacks on other trails in the Smoky's in recent years. There was also a fatal black bear attack in Canada a few years ago.

Alligator

01-15-2008, 23:04

I don't think there has ever been a verified bear attack fatality on the AT. There have been fatal black bear attacks, though, in the Eastern U.S., in recent years. So keep that in mind, too. . . they ain't harmless. They are unpredictable wild animals deserving of respect and caution.I wasn't sure where the woman was killed in the Smokies. Sure one should be cautious, and I'm not trying to give TC a hard time. OTOH, there have only been a few over 50 fatal black bear attacks in North America from 1900-2003 (Wikipedia). Most of those were out West or in Canada. The people are a little more dangerous.

Alligator

01-15-2008, 23:07

Not directly on the AT, but there have beem two fatal bear attacks on other trails in the Smoky's in recent years. There was also a fatal black bear attack in Canada a few years ago.I think you may have the child one misplaced (Cherokee NF), but here's a list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade).

4eyedbuzzard

01-15-2008, 23:35

I think you may have the child one misplaced (Cherokee NF), but here's a list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade).

Yep. You're correct. TY for the correction.

Roots

01-15-2008, 23:44

"You'll shoot your eye out, kid!";)
CLASSIC--LMAO!:D

The Doctor

01-15-2008, 23:59

Tin Man

01-16-2008, 00:20

Anybody try boring an aggressor till he went away? "Okay, big fella, I see you want to pick a fight. Well, let me tell you about this fight on White Blaze. There was talk that mooning the cog is a bad thing. That's the cog railway in the White Mtns. It is managed by the AMC, no wait, that is the NPS, or are they private? Yeah, I think they are private. Anyway, there was this guy driving the cog getting ready to throw this hunk of coal at a big mooning dude when suddenly the police arrived. yada yada yada. Then this guy said don't moon, it's illegal and immoral. Well, then this piehole said, it's freedom of expression. yada yada yada. Am I keeping you awake there big fella? Pay attention please, this is important. Yada yada yada."

If he ain't bored and doesn't go away, then you would be amply justified in pulling out your firearm and shooting him once for being an attacker and a second time for making you go on and on.

Jaybird62

01-16-2008, 00:23

heeee....heeeeee....heeeeee.....

vonfrick

01-16-2008, 00:25

DuctTape

01-16-2008, 00:31

Carrying a gun is not dangerous at all...

Seriously? :-?

ShakeyLeggs

01-16-2008, 00:37

The 22Mag is only 6 oz ..... 2 oz lighter than my bear spray.

And before anyone jumps in to talk about how limited a 22mag is ... or even the 22 LR .... let me paraphrase something I read some years ago ...

It went something like this ..... if you really face facts, when comparing to a rifle or a shotgun, NO handgun has very much stopping power.

But there is a sure fire, 100% positive way to double the stopping power of any handgun round ...... put another hole in em.

Want to tripple your stopping power. .... then put three holes in em.

A .22 is a hell of a lot better weapon than any other caliber if you can shoot it with skill ... compared to someone who has a .38 and never practices, at least.

True, shot placement trumps power. But accurate shot placement is at best difficult in a combat/ defensive shooting situation, especially as most private citizens rarely encounter or even train for such type of shooting. That being the case, a more powerful round is always an advantage. There are many lightweight handguns under 1 lb loaded firing .380 auto, 9mm, and even .357mag/.38 special, which are far better defensive loads than any .22, .25, or .32. Add to all this that the smaller the physical size of a handgun the more difficult is is to shoot accurately due to grip size, barrel length, sight radius(though not a huge concern at close range), etc.

I had a friend in the Army who carried a 22 on him at all times. Now as we all know the 22 does not pack the punch of larger calibers. But it can be effective if used properly.

On one occasion with my friend we were in a bar in El Paso Tx. My friend got into a heated discussion with another patron and a knife was pulled. My friend pulled out his 22 and the other guy saw it and laughed and asked him what he was going to do with that tiny gun. He told my friend that it would not stop him. My friend agreed with him saying "It may not stop you but when you get to me you won't feel like doing anything" to which the other guy agreed and beat a hasty retreat. Just had to relate that little story. And it is true the 22 may not stop you but when you get there you won't feel like doing much.

Captn

01-16-2008, 11:03

I had a friend in the Army who carried a 22 on him at all times. Now as we all know the 22 does not pack the punch of larger calibers. But it can be effective if used properly.

On one occasion with my friend we were in a bar in El Paso Tx. My friend got into a heated discussion with another patron and a knife was pulled. My friend pulled out his 22 and the other guy saw it and laughed and asked him what he was going to do with that tiny gun. He told my friend that it would not stop him. My friend agreed with him saying "It may not stop you but when you get to me you won't feel like doing anything" to which the other guy agreed and beat a hasty retreat. Just had to relate that little story. And it is true the 22 may not stop you but when you get there you won't feel like doing much.

Hard for someone to keep attacking with a shattered kneecap ......

I'm just sayin ......

winger

01-16-2008, 11:48

It would be very very foolish for anyone to underestimate the stopping power of a .22 LR. A head or heart shot is lethal, and yes can be made in experienced hands (read practice, practice, and practice some more). The very easily concealable Berreta .22 is small, light and holds a 6 shot clip. It would be an ideal carry in order to avoid heavier weapons.

tchiker

01-16-2008, 12:15

Plus, who wants a bunch of rookies running around the mountain with guns. .

Well the laws against carring handguns in the National Forest certainly do not deter someone with ill intent from carrying one. And if I carry my pistol on a hike, it just sits in my backpack very safely. If they changed the law, I doubt that many more "rookies" would be bringing their handguns on hikes.

And there are already a "bunch of rookies" running around the mountains with rifles...somehow thinking that deer and people look alike. It's absurd that it's legal to have a rifle in the mountains to kill animals, but not legal to have a handgun to potentially defend yourself against an aggressive animal. Oh well...they can make whatever laws they want and smart people will just ignore the stupid ones.

tchiker

01-16-2008, 12:21

It went something like this ..... if you really face facts, when comparing to a rifle or a shotgun, NO handgun has very much stopping power.

But there is a sure fire, 100% positive way to double the stopping power of any handgun round ...... put another hole in em.

Want to tripple your stopping power. .... then put three holes in em.

Exactly...even with a bear, I can't believe that if you put two or three rounds in them at point blank range that they are going to have that much fight left in them.

And I never was concerned much about bears before but the little encounter with one yesterday certainly brought it to the forefront of my mind. That one ended without incident, but it just make me more "bear aware", at least for awhile.

A handgun that is not easily accessible would probably not be much help against some "bad guy" on the trail. And I don't know how to carry my bulky Ruger 9mm P94 that would be anything less than extremely uncomfortable if I could get to it easily. So I'll just probably put it in the front of my backpack and it will only help me in situations when I'd have 15-30 seconds to get to it.

Captn

01-16-2008, 14:45

Exactly...even with a bear, I can't believe that if you put two or three rounds in them at point blank range that they are going to have that much fight left in them.

And I never was concerned much about bears before but the little encounter with one yesterday certainly brought it to the forefront of my mind. That one ended without incident, but it just make me more "bear aware", at least for awhile.

A handgun that is not easily accessible would probably not be much help against some "bad guy" on the trail. And I don't know how to carry my bulky Ruger 9mm P94 that would be anything less than extremely uncomfortable if I could get to it easily. So I'll just probably put it in the front of my backpack and it will only help me in situations when I'd have 15-30 seconds to get to it.

My thoughts exactly ..... several things in favor of a small gun.... a .22 or even a Seacamp .32, for that matter ....

1.) You can carry it in your pants pocket where it's readily accessible
2.) It's light enough that you can carry it around all the time when your on the trail and no one else would know that you're "packing".
3.) You're more likely to carry it where you can get to it rather than leaving it in the pack.

Captn

01-16-2008, 14:47

Exactly...even with a bear, I can't believe that if you put two or three rounds in them at point blank range that they are going to have that much fight left in them.

And I never was concerned much about bears before but the little encounter with one yesterday certainly brought it to the forefront of my mind. That one ended without incident, but it just make me more "bear aware", at least for awhile.

A handgun that is not easily accessible would probably not be much help against some "bad guy" on the trail. And I don't know how to carry my bulky Ruger 9mm P94 that would be anything less than extremely uncomfortable if I could get to it easily. So I'll just probably put it in the front of my backpack and it will only help me in situations when I'd have 15-30 seconds to get to it.

Although I've heard that Bears and Big Cats have a tendency to attack when shot .... even though they may bleed out later.

My thoughts are that the pistol is for animals of the two legged variety only .... bear spray is a more logical deterent for large animals.

4eyedbuzzard

01-16-2008, 14:56

Well the laws against carring handguns in the National Forest certainly do not deter someone with ill intent from carrying one. And if I carry my pistol on a hike, it just sits in my backpack very safely. If they changed the law, I doubt that many more "rookies" would be bringing their handguns on hikes.

And there are already a "bunch of rookies" running around the mountains with rifles...somehow thinking that deer and people look alike. It's absurd that it's legal to have a rifle in the mountains to kill animals, but not legal to have a handgun to potentially defend yourself against an aggressive animal. Oh well...they can make whatever laws they want and smart people will just ignore the stupid ones.

Just a minor correction: Unless prohibited by state/local laws, handguns and other firearms are legal in National Forests(Dept of Agriculture) provided the person is otherwise legally entitled to carry.
National Parks,(Dept of Interior) however, ban pretty much all weapons in the lower 48 on all NPS property, including handguns and irritant gas devices(mace/OC/bear spray)

Hunters kill far more other humans each year in the woods and near trails than do law abiding citizens carrying for legal purpose. In fact, while every year there are numerous hunting related deaths in every state, I can think of no accidental shootings on or near the trail by those carrying defensive weapons.

tha

01-16-2008, 16:08

I often carry a small .380 automatic concealed. It's usually in my right hand jacket pocket, and if not, in my right front pants pocket when I'm not wearing a jacket. It's in my sleeping bag at night if I'm carrying it while hiking(and just FWIW, I don't ALWAYS carry). I don't carry it in a place it would be useless, such as in my pack, etc. And I can honestly access it in seconds without fumbling.

Here's the reality though. If you aren't somehow alerted to danger prior to being attacked, it will be difficult to respond regardless if you're armed or not. If a guy hides behind a rock and takes you out as you pass, you're in deep doo-doo. If you're sound asleep, reacting successfully to an attacker who is in control of the situation is incredibly unlikely. If someone really wants to kill you that badly, and they have any degree of intelligence, you are most likely gonna die. They are gonna get the drop on you whether you're armed or not.

So why carry? Because most criminals DO tend to tip their hand. Most commonly they'll appear out of place/suspicious, doing things that don't fit the context of the situation. Often you don't pick up exactly what it is at the time, but it's usually a combination of appearance, body language, eye contact, hands, etc. But it still puts you on alert. Less commonly they'll be too friendly, say something threatening, act aggressive or even display a weapon in plain view before attacking. Carrying a lethal weapon DOES greatly increase your odds of survivng a violent attack even with limited warning. Attacks against armed persons are much less successful than those against unarmed ones. And obviously, the more weapons and combat shooting training you have, the better.

But weapons aren't the end all of self-defense, situational awareness(aka self-defense awareness) and control are. You are always better off avoiding an attack by any means than you are engaging an attacker in a fight. If gaining/staying in control means avoidance, you do so. Running away remains the most successful human survival strategy of all time. But here's the rub in my situation: I can't run fast or far anymore, nor do I think I would fare very well in hand-to-hand combat, due to several physical injuries in the past. If I'm threatened or attacked, I'm pretty much in for the fight due to these mobility issues. And I want every advantage I can possibly have should such a situation arise. And I will not hesitate to put two into the center of mass of anyone who trys to make me their next victim.

Most criminals attacks center on either money or sex. And one of the best defenses is not to look like an easy victim or draw attention to yourself. Most of the normal warnings apply here. Don't hike alone if you don't have to, if you do, try to stealth through road areas. Stay clear of shelters where locals party or homeless people frequent. Don't display large amounts of money in towns. Don't party hard with total strangers. Keep an eye on your drinks(date rape drugging). Be really careful hitch-hiking. Rides in open bed pick-ups are best, vans(especially with no windows) are the absolute worst. Never, ever, get into any vehicle without seeing who else in inside first. Look to see that the door handles are still attached. If it starts feeling wierd, get the hell away ASAP. Women should be especially wary of "all the usual suspects."

Given the recent incident, what can be said about psycho killers other than the fact that they are out there. Their appearance and demeanor can never be predicted. But like other criminals, they remain opportunists, and being aware of that is our best defense against becoming a victim. Everbody who saw/met this recent killer, said he triggered their "sixth-sense" alert. Sometimes people say don't judge others on your first impression. BS! We spend most of our lives learning to do so and 90%+ of the time we are right. Trust your instincts, and don't second guess them until you are clear of the situation. Don't get conned into letting your guard down by a few minutes of pleasant converstation. There was a reason you were suspicious - remember?

As to several sympathetic posts here on WB regarding homeless persons: These are not stray cats that need a warm bowl of milk. At minimum they need a job, and most need psychiatic care, neither of which you can give them. If you feel they need ministering and compassion, report them to authorities so they may be led to the nearest church by guys with badges. Don't put yourself at increased risk trying to be a good Samaritan to these people, save your altruism for injured hikers. There's a reason most of these people are homeless given the amount of public assistance in place - they behave unpredictably and irrationally.

The choice to carry a firearm, within legal limits, is purely a personal one. If you weigh the positive vs negative aspects of carrying, and choose to take on the responsibility that comes with choosing to carry, it may very well make a difference in your survival if attacked. But neither side here can choose what is the appropriate decision for others. Those whose philosophical and political viewpoints persuade them not to carry, should be equally respectful of those who choose to carry weapons to aid in their ability to defend themselves.

This is far and away the most rational post I have read in this thread. Just my opinion, of course. The only thing I would say differently is that I have camped and hiked alone for the majority of the past 20 or so years. I have always chosen to carry and expect to do so in the future. I am not constrained by legal limits, and that is my choice, being fully aware of and prepared to face the consequences.

4-Eyed might just be a LEO, and he has offered good insight, particularly about being alert and observant..
Thanks.
YMMV, of course.

briarpatch

01-16-2008, 16:38

Just a minor correction: Unless prohibited by state/local laws, handguns and other firearms are legal in National Forests(Dept of Agriculture) provided the person is otherwise legally entitled to carry.
National Parks,(Dept of Interior) however, ban pretty much all weapons in the lower 48 on all NPS property, including handguns and irritant gas devices(mace/OC/bear spray)

Hunters kill far more other humans each year in the woods and near trails than do law abiding citizens carrying for legal purpose. In fact, while every year there are numerous hunting related deaths in every state, I can think of no accidental shootings on or near the trail by those carrying defensive weapons.

An additional wrinkle comes up here in Georgia, where the laws are as clear as mud and more than a little contradictory. If the National Forest is also designated as a State Wildlife Management Area, state law says you can only carry during hunting season with the appropriate hunting license.

or something like that. . . . . . .

weary

01-16-2008, 17:28

....if I carry my pistol on a hike, it just sits in my backpack very safely. .....
And incidentally, very worthless. It's hard to imagine a situation where a gun in the bottom of a backpack would be useful emergency protection against either man or beast.

Weary

tha

01-16-2008, 17:29

I could happily have lived my whole life without that visual!:eek:

Sounds like we have gone the entire gamut, from pedophilia for taking pictures of cars in parking lots, to flamingophilia for encouraging said creature to nibble on certain body parts.

As the man said: "Have you no shame?"

Stuie, our ticks over here are bigger than those you may have experienced in England. Any self-respecting woodsman worth his salt (that's an Americanism) knows it takes a .45ACP to reliably dispatch ticks from any body part. A little .22LR would never work, unless you go for a head shot (on yourself, not the tick)!

Obiwan

01-16-2008, 17:29

So...If I understand correctly ...there are some here that feel you should not bother to defend yourself since there is no foolproof way to do it:-?

How does that logic work?

Leaving word with someone just gets them out looking for your body sooner....potentially comforting for the survivors.....but not so much for the victim

4eyedbuzzard

01-16-2008, 17:54

This is far and away the most rational post I have read in this thread. Just my opinion, of course. The only thing I would say differently is that I have camped and hiked alone for the majority of the past 20 or so years. I have always chosen to carry and expect to do so in the future. I am not constrained by legal limits, and that is my choice, being fully aware of and prepared to face the consequences.

4-Eyed might just be a LEO, and he has offered good insight, particularly about being alert and observant..
Thanks.
YMMV, of course.

For the record, I am not a LEO - I'm a VIRGO :p :banana (couldn't resist)

So much for being rational as well. ;) :D

tha

01-16-2008, 17:58

With concealed carry size handguns, generally true. Yet when drawn on a criminal they are usually not fired, as most times the criminal simply runs away. Don't underestimate the deterrence factor of displaying the ability to use lethal force. Most times it never has to be used.

BUZZ,
Again, well said and reasoned. As I said before, I have carried for over 20 years, concealed but quickly accessible. I have displayed the weapon twice, never pointed, never fired. After display, no need to point or fire. This fact seems to be lost on many. Displaying a weapon often obviates the need for further confrontation.

tha

01-16-2008, 18:30

I went on a dayhike today from Unicoi Gap to Chatt. Gap in GA. I had a minor bear encounter and if I would have had a firearm with me, I would have been MUCH more safe. I plan to carry my 9mm pistol with me on future dayhikes. I might not be able to get to it in time, but I might and today I would have been able to.

Carrying a gun is not dangerous at all...no one else will even know you have it and it could come in handy. And I know people say that a 9mm would not stop a bear, but I bet 3 or 4 rounds fired into it would make it think twice about continuing to charge and attack you.

I don't worry so much about people as I do bears and I worry about them very little. My usualy concern is just getting injured on a solo dayhike, especially this time of year.

I think carrying a handgun is illegal in the national forest even with a carry permit...but "better to be wrong than dead right".

Umm, When it comes to bears, a 9MM will get you into more trouble than no firearm at all the vast majority of the time. For one thing, I doubt very seriously that, since you intend to wait until the bear charges, you will place 3 or 4 rounds effectively. You will certainly succeed in pissing him off, and that may likely be worse than no shots at all. 9MM's are designed to kill people, not bears. I am a strong handgun advocate, hunt with handguns and shoot often. Trust me on this one; you do NOT want to shoot a bear with that weapon. The penetration required for effectiveness is not there, regardless of how many times you hit him. BTW, I own 3 9MM's. Just FWIW.

oldfivetango

01-16-2008, 19:12

Which is more invasive....gun culture or anti-gun culture?
Good point indeed!! Anyone have to wonder which culture Chuck Schumer,
Diane Feinstein and Barbara Boxer belong to?
Next question-show me where anyone on this thread has gotten racist
and political about their second amendment right to carry.I would like
to see that.
Oldfivetango

take-a-knee

01-16-2008, 19:47

Umm, When it comes to bears, a 9MM will get you into more trouble than no firearm at all the vast majority of the time. For one thing, I doubt very seriously that, since you intend to wait until the bear charges, you will place 3 or 4 rounds effectively. You will certainly succeed in pissing him off, and that may likely be worse than no shots at all. 9MM's are designed to kill people, not bears. I am a strong handgun advocate, hunt with handguns and shoot often. Trust me on this one; you do NOT want to shoot a bear with that weapon. The penetration required for effectiveness is not there, regardless of how many times you hit him. BTW, I own 3 9MM's. Just FWIW.

I beg to differ, a 4-5in barrel 9mm loaded with +P ammo is nearing .357mag velocity, would you say that is an ineffective weapon? 9mm penetrates FAR better than any caliber that starts with "four", except .44mag or the super mags. The average N. Ga bear weighs about 200#, we aren't talking coastal brown bears here. Ammo selection if more important than the caliber usually.

Captn

01-16-2008, 22:01

Sounds like we have gone the entire gamut, from pedophilia for taking pictures of cars in parking lots, to flamingophilia for encouraging said creature to nibble on certain body parts.

As the man said: "Have you no shame?"

Stuie, our ticks over here are bigger than those you may have experienced in England. Any self-respecting woodsman worth his salt (that's an Americanism) knows it takes a .45ACP to reliably dispatch ticks from any body part. A little .22LR would never work, unless you go for a head shot (on yourself, not the tick)!

Flamingophillia .... isn't that a Felony in Georgia?

bigben

01-16-2008, 22:54

Originally Posted by tha http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=503496#post503496)
Umm, When it comes to bears, a 9MM will get you into more trouble than no firearm at all the vast majority of the time. For one thing, I doubt very seriously that, since you intend to wait until the bear charges, you will place 3 or 4 rounds effectively. You will certainly succeed in pissing him off, and that may likely be worse than no shots at all. 9MM's are designed to kill people, not bears. I am a strong handgun advocate, hunt with handguns and shoot often. Trust me on this one; you do NOT want to shoot a bear with that weapon. The penetration required for effectiveness is not there, regardless of how many times you hit him. BTW, I own 3 9MM's. Just FWIW.

In the far south, I'd bet just the sound of a 9mm going off would send a bear running. Either way, a big can of bear spray is better defense for bears, if that's your concern. If 2 and 4 legged creatures worry you equally, carry both bear spray and your 9mm.

Bigben

envirodiver

01-16-2008, 22:55

I'd say the bear spray would be pretty effective on 2 legged problems also.

general

01-17-2008, 10:50

bear spray may be effective for the moment, but it allows for the chance for that person or animal to show the same undesireable behavior in the future.

4eyedbuzzard

01-17-2008, 11:01

I'd say the bear spray would be pretty effective on 2 legged problems also.

Under certain conditions. High winds render it difficult to accurately deploy and disperse it very rapidly, and you had better be upwind of your target or you're going to wind up spraying yourself. You had also better be able to get to safety/inform authorities/get other protection within 15 minutes, 'cause you are going to have one angry violent criminal on your hands when he's able to see and breathe again.

dessertrat

01-17-2008, 11:10

Under certain conditions. High winds render it difficult to accurately deploy and disperse it very rapidly, and you had better be upwind of your target or you're going to wind up spraying yourself. You had also better be able to get to safety/inform authorities/get other protection within 15 minutes, 'cause you are going to have one angry violent criminal on your hands when he's able to see and breathe again.

Unless you do the obvious while he is incapacitated by the pepper spray. Who said we're fighting fair?

4eyedbuzzard

01-17-2008, 11:21

Unless you do the obvious while he is incapacitated by the pepper spray. Who said we're fighting fair?

I was trying to stay within the WB TOS guidelines and not suggest such stuff. ;) Not that it wouldn't cross my mind.

There's no such thing as a fair fight. Somebody ALWAYS has an advantage, and I want it to be me.:)

Tin Man

01-17-2008, 12:17

Sounds like running after using bear spray on a bad guys is only good if you have a place to get away to. The middle of the woods is still the middle of the woods 15 minutes after the effects have warn off.

tha

01-17-2008, 21:20

I beg to differ, a 4-5in barrel 9mm loaded with +P ammo is nearing .357mag velocity, would you say that is an ineffective weapon? 9mm penetrates FAR better than any caliber that starts with "four", except .44mag or the super mags. The average N. Ga bear weighs about 200#, we aren't talking coastal brown bears here. Ammo selection if more important than the caliber usually.

I agree with parts of your assertion.
The .45ACP is not notorious for its penetration, nor is the .40. Those are the 2 I assume you are referring to, not the .41 Mag, which I assume you include in super mags?
I also agree strongly with your assertion that ammo selection is critical, particularly with regard to the 9MM. It has come an incredible way over the past 20 years, and I have full faith in the +P and hydra-shoks as manstoppers. I carry one for that purpose almost everyday.
However, anyone who thinks that there are not .357 loads FAR superior for stopping power and penetration to most anything in 9MM is mistaken. I was thinking specifically of the .357 in my original post. I don't want to turn this into a hunter's thread here, and the argument could go on indefinitely. For the purposes of this thread, let me just say that I hunt fairly often with hand guns and would not want to be behind a 9MM shooting at bears. Particularly if I were going to wait until it charged and start shooting the dirt. Not a good idea, and I was simply trying to help the fellow avoid what could be a serious mistake. Further than that, we can discuss elsewhere. I WAS thinking specifically about the comparison of the .357 and the 9MM.

Thanks.

Beano

02-24-2009, 19:34

Get a solid hardwood branch and shave it down into a walking stick, then whittle one end into a spear. You've got a good walking stick, a solid weapon, and you don't have to worry about getting mase in your own eyes or some suspicious cop searching your bag and finding that nice .45

SunnyWalker

02-24-2009, 20:20

SGT Rock

02-24-2009, 20:22

Geez. Way to dig up a dead thread.

SunnyWalker

02-24-2009, 20:35

Pepper spray in Nat'l parks seems to be allowed. In any Q and Q on nat'l parks lit there are instructions on how bear spray may be useful. so it does not sound as if it is banned. Also, at nps.gov under article about personal safety it talkes about the carrying and use of pepper spray type products for personal safety (not bear spray) is subject to state laws. No mention of it being banned by NPS. Only reg I could find was that if you are riding a bus in Denali Nat'l park you have to place your pepper spray/bear spray in a sealed bag.

Lone Wolf

02-24-2009, 20:45

Geez. Way to dig up a dead thread.

better than most of the current crap.

bigmac_in

02-24-2009, 20:53

better than most of the current crap.

I agree.

Maybe you should go dumpster diving for old threads again. That's always interesting. :D

Mongoose2

02-24-2009, 21:13

Pepperspray (Bear Spray) is very effective and the bear isn't going to come back mad. Also, I sure would not use it on a human. It is a different mixture. Regular ole pepper spray will work and that fella aint gonna bother you either. Its going to be a REAL exceptional person who can still assault you after you have sprayed him. One in a million. I am thinking here of an ex-inmate who has had spray in his face for years. But even in prison, that is a VERY excetional inmate (I don't mean exceptional in the positive sense). I believe my chances of meeting that ex-inmate on the trail are slim to none, in fact it won't happen. Check this out: pepperpower.com

Not true! As a retired LEO I can tell you many people are able to fight after being sprayed. It does give you an edge to run, fight and survive, but you should anticipate that the suspect will still have plenty of fight. I have seen other people sprayed and it takes them to their knees. It all depends on the individual.

SunnyWalker

02-24-2009, 21:20

He might be swinging, but he ain't gonna connect. And most of these folk will start to wipe their eyes and that only makes it worse. I think pepper spray is very effective and non-lethal.

q-tip

02-25-2009, 08:56

The Spot Messenger technology has a 911 button that sends a satellite message to local emergencey services. I got one for my thru hike starting on Monday, it is giving me some peace of mind and my family much more as I am doing the trail by myself.(I know I will be with a crowd through the Smokys) Might be worth checking out.

4eyedbuzzard

02-25-2009, 09:04

Just stating what I think is "the obvious", but response time from law enforcement or emergency services to many, if not most, locations on the AT isn't likely to be measured in minutes.

Vibe

02-25-2009, 11:34

Just a minor correction:
National Parks,(Dept of Interior) however, ban pretty much all weapons in the lower 48 on all NPS property, including handguns and irritant gas devices(mace/OC/bear spray)

Possibly another correction. Didn't that ban get repealed shortly after this post was made?

maxNcathy

02-25-2009, 12:39

If I were a lady who insisted on hiking alone I would have a trained Doberman .Our dear Doberman just died and she was full of vigilance for over 12 years until the day she passed on.

But I now tend to wonder if what happens is meant to happen..if I were victimizer in another life then maybe it is my turn to be the victim..why is life often cruel and insane??

4eyedbuzzard

02-25-2009, 13:30

Possibly another correction. Didn't that ban get repealed shortly after this post was made?

Actually, it was about a full year. The post you referenced was made in Jan 2008, the repeal became effective Jan 9, 2009

SunnyWalker

02-25-2009, 21:13

I had a Doberman names "Mike". We finally lost him due to hip displaysia (sp?). He was a good "hiker" and protector, except he liked to be a "runner". Bad thing about it, there are lots of rabits in Texas. It sure was entertaining though, watching him.

buff_jeff

02-27-2009, 19:15

I'm not paranoid, sorry.

SGT Rock

02-27-2009, 19:26

SGT Rock

02-27-2009, 19:28

I use BO to repel threats on the trail.

Vibe

02-28-2009, 18:57

I'm not paranoid, sorry.

There's a better BN reference..but this will do.

Michael Westen: [voice-over] When you work solo, it's about prepping the ground. Home-court advantage counts for a lot. You never know what's going to happen. You prepare for everything... Most bad guys expect you to just sit there and wait for them, like those are the *rules* or something.

buff_jeff

02-28-2009, 19:52

There's a better BN reference..but this will do.

What's a "BN" reference?

I'm not too bright...;)

Bearpaw

02-28-2009, 19:59

What's a "BN" reference?

I'm not too bright...;)

Burn Notice. One of the best shows on cable.

Vibe

02-28-2009, 20:29

Burn Notice. One of the best shows on cable.Quite right. :D
And you can catch all the back episodes on Hulu.com

Bare Bear

03-01-2009, 18:08

CrumbSnatcher

03-01-2009, 18:13

i carry two guns every time i go into the woods. and they are to big to conceal. my left and right.:D

4eyedbuzzard

03-01-2009, 18:25

What has scared me the most is the few idiots carrying a gun that felt a need to take it out and show it around the shelter!
Or anywhere else for that matter.

The surprise of a concealed weapon is as much a part of the safety as the weapon itself. I do not care what you pack, it is your pack. I believe that common sense and listening to those gut feelings will help you more than a hard to get to weapon of any kind.
Buried in a pack and hard to get to would also defeat the purpose. I'm partial to Nemisis pocket holsters, IWB doesn't work well with a waist belt.

I was a cop for 28 years and have some fine weapons but never carry on hikes. Or do I? You will never know unless you threaten me or someone in my presence.
IMO, the more criminals or potential criminals that have to ask themselves that question: "Does he or doesn't he?", the safer everyone becomes.

Bare Bear

03-01-2009, 18:35

I was surprised being asked whether I carry or not, perhaps because of my background. But even those who I have hiked hundreds of miles with still do not know.
Your best defense is always what you feel. If a situation doesn't feel right it probably isn't.

buff_jeff

03-01-2009, 22:52

What has scared me the most is the few idiots carrying a gun that felt a need to take it out and show it around the shelter! The surprise of a concealed weapon is as much a part of the safety as the weapon itself. I do not care what you pack, it is your pack. I believe that common sense and listening to those gut feelings will help you more than a hard to get to weapon of any kind. I was a cop for 28 years and have some fine weapons but never carry on hikes. Or do I? You will never know unless you threaten me or someone in my presence.

That reminds me of this summer when my Dad, Storyteller, and myself were sitting at the last road crossing before Thomas Knob Shelter.

This guy was on a day hike with a duffel bag and his dog. After chatting for a minute he asked me if the P on my hat stood for police...it was a phillies hat and I responded in kind. So, he starts unzipping the duffel bag and we're all sitting there like, "is this guy going to try and sell us drugs or something?" As it turned out, he pulled a loaded 9mm out of his duffel bag. I thought I was a dead man for a second, but quickly asked him to see it, and he did end up letting me see it. This guy had two loaded mags on hand. I have no idea what he thought he was going to run into but it was weird.

I mean, he was a really nice guy, and he said the only reason he carried the gun was for self-defense...but it made me a little uncomfortable there for a bit.

Vibe

03-02-2009, 10:19

What has scared me the most is the few idiots carrying a gun that felt a need to take it out and show it around the shelter! I agree. Which is why I'm most afraid of newly "converted" activists. A firearm is a serious tool, not a show and tell toy.

The surprise of a concealed weapon is as much a part of the safety as the weapon itself.
Also I agree. However - Open carry IS the 2nd Amendment right - to carry concealed requires permission (A CCL license). This creates a rather awkward paradox.

Or do I? You will never know unless you threaten me or someone in my presence.
Likewise.

freakflyer9999

03-02-2009, 14:14

two rounds of bird shot, then 3 rounds of hollow point.

I'm reading this thread from start to finish and was going to wait till I finished before adding my 2 cents, but just couldn't let this go by.

I carry a gun just about everywhere that I legally can.

The quoted statement above concerns me greatly though. Personally, the only time that anyone will see my weapon is as they are being shot with the intent to kill. I will not carry a lesser ammo (bird shot) to try to scare them. If I can not get away from the situation and have decided to unholster my weapon, I will shoot to kill. I will only unholster the weapon once I have made the decision that deadly force is necessary and that I can deliver the deadly force without further endangering myself or innocent persons around me.

After I purchased my handgun and received my concealed handgun license I carried for about 5 months before my wife even realized that I was carrying. She knew that I had the weapon and that I had my CHL, but did not know that I carried every time I left the house.

The one most important thing that my dad taught me about guns is "Don't ever point a gun at anything that you don't intend to kill."

freakflyer9999

03-02-2009, 14:52

Possibly another correction. Didn't that ban get repealed shortly after this post was made?

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2008/12/interior-officials-release-rule-change-allow-national-park-visitors-arm-themselves

Vagrant Squirrel

03-03-2009, 11:09

What has scared me the most is the few idiots carrying a gun that felt a need to take it out and show it around the shelter! The surprise of a concealed weapon is as much a part of the safety as the weapon itself. I do not care what you pack, it is your pack. I believe that common sense and listening to those gut feelings will help you more than a hard to get to weapon of any kind. I was a cop for 28 years and have some fine weapons but never carry on hikes. Or do I? You will never know unless you threaten me or someone in my presence.

I agree with you here. If you're carrying a concealed weapon you definitely should not make it known to other hikers. Not only because it makes your weapon less effective if a would-be attacker is aware of it, but also because by telling people that you're carrying a gun, you yourself will become a threat. I have respect for law enforcement even though I've found myself on the wrong side a few times... But cop, circus clown or school professor, there's crazy people from all walks of life and strangers in the woods with guns do not ease my mind as a solo hiker. :)

I think the best preparation in life is the realization that death is unavoidable. You fight like hell to live, but if you wind up dead, I'd imagine you're probably not going to care, you know, seeing as how you're dead...

SGT Rock

03-03-2009, 19:42

FWIW - I would recommend part of staying concealed and under cover with your weapon is to also not post you do it on the Internet. Someone meets you and says: "Oh yea, you are that guy from WhiteBlaze with a gun"

wrongway_08

03-03-2009, 19:53

I'm reading this thread from start to finish and was going to wait till I finished before adding my 2 cents, but just couldn't let this go by.

I carry a gun just about everywhere that I legally can.

The quoted statement above concerns me greatly though. Personally, the only time that anyone will see my weapon is as they are being shot with the intent to kill. I will not carry a lesser ammo (bird shot) to try to scare them. If I can not get away from the situation and have decided to unholster my weapon, I will shoot to kill. I will only unholster the weapon once I have made the decision that deadly force is necessary and that I can deliver the deadly force without further endangering myself or innocent persons around me.

After I purchased my handgun and received my concealed handgun license I carried for about 5 months before my wife even realized that I was carrying. She knew that I had the weapon and that I had my CHL, but did not know that I carried every time I left the house.

The one most important thing that my dad taught me about guns is "Don't ever point a gun at anything that you don't intend to kill."

well said. One other point, if someone does put 2 rounds of birdshot in first and then real ammo in to fill the mag - that can get YOU sued! The reason is, if you pull a gun, it is because you KNOW your life is in danger. Putting that buck shot in the first 2 rounds and real ammo for the rest of the mag will allow a laywer to state to the jury that you knew the crimminal wasnt really threatening your life and you used a deadly weapon in a non-deadly force situation.

I dont agree with this, you should be able to blow the guys head off with any type of ammo you see fit but I just want to make sure no one goes to jail for killing a worthless crimminal due to a illmoral lawyer.

Just load your gun with a good quality kill ammo and keep it all the same.

catfishrivers

03-03-2009, 20:31

damn I can't wait for personal use force fields to be invented...

Vagrant Squirrel

03-03-2009, 23:16

damn I can't wait for personal use force fields to be invented...

I thought the thru-hiker funk and general crustiness acted as a personal use force field? :)

SGT Rock

03-04-2009, 08:39

Probably. I think I read somewhere that all victims of trail violence had recently bathed and put on clean laundry.

ASUGrad

03-04-2009, 14:33

Ask yourself this. What is more likely to happen if you carry a gun on you?
A) You will need a gun
B) Someone will steal it.

Travel in a group even if you are not with your group. If anyone asks, you are always with your group.
Carry a big knife instead.

4eyedbuzzard

03-04-2009, 14:51

Ask yourself this. What is more likely to happen if you carry a gun on you?
A) You will need a gun
B) Someone will steal it.
A) Very unlikely
B) If they tried, then I the very unlikely (A) would occur.

Travel in a group even if you are not with your group. If anyone asks, you are always with your group.
Thanks for the tip. If anyone asks, I'll tell them that I'm with the NRA group coming up the trail behind them.

Carry a big knife instead.
No thanks. Big knives are scary, dangerous and could hurt people. The knife control (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2008/07/020920.php) people told me so. :eek: Besides, ask yourself this: What is more likely to happen if you carry a big knife on you?
A) You will need a big knife
B) Someone will steal it.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

ASUGrad

03-04-2009, 15:34

I need a knife a lot more than I would need a gun. You do a lot of different things with a knife. But a $400 pistol is a lot of dead weight to lug around "just in case".

RiverWarriorPJ

03-04-2009, 15:48

So .... just so that everyone knows .... I'll be making a habit of taking a picture with my camera phone of other cars at whatever trailhead i visit, including their license numbers, from now on, on every trail I visit.

If nothing else, It would be nice to know what other cars were there if you return and find your car vandalized .....

other opinions are welcome.

..Good idea......can't hurt......i'll start doin' the same...thnx..

Vibe

03-04-2009, 15:52

I need a knife a lot more than I would need a gun. You do a lot of different things with a knife. But a $400 pistol is a lot of dead weight to lug around "just in case".
Just like all the other gear in here...the $100 ones are heavier. :D
But there are some VERY light weight scandium framed revolvers that don't weigh much at all. The problem with that is that, when it come to handling recoil - mass (And thus weight) is your friend. Like all other camping gear there is a trade off between comfort in use and comfort to carry.

Billygoatbritt

03-04-2009, 16:24

I usually hike solo and enjoy the solitude. It's nice to meet people on the trail but prefer to hike and camp at my own pace. I have the pleasure (and displeasure) of dealing with lots of people everyday and look forward to getting away. My family has a schedule of when I expect to start and where I should be each day/night. When leaving the trail and heading back home a simple phone call to let them know everything is ok helps to settle their fears. I presume most hikers are on the trail for their own reasons and are not out to harm anybody. I think a little common sense goes a long way. If on the other hand, if your time is up then definitely go down in a blaze of fury whether it is by animal or human.

SunnyWalker

03-04-2009, 23:46

Watch for the bears, Billygoat.

CowHead

03-05-2009, 07:01

I find those trail mice or more dangerous than the bears or people I meet on the trail.
The only thing we have to fear is ____ itself. You filled in the blank

Godfrey

03-19-2009, 18:35

I agree with Take a Knee, after much discussion this week from my post that was deleted by the way, I am convinced. I was merely looking for folks input and boy I got it. I have made my decision.

Godfrey

03-19-2009, 18:37

That is why you change your name :) Appreciate your input this week.

ed bell

03-19-2009, 18:42

I agree with Take a Knee, after much discussion this week from my post that was deleted by the way, I am convinced. I was merely looking for folks input and boy I got it. I have made my decision.Godfrey, I had moved your thread to cleanup a couple of posts but I did it in the incorrect order and will need help to get it back where it was before. Sorry about that. Just wanted you to know that your thread has not been deleted, folks are just unable to view it at this time.

Ed

Godfrey

03-19-2009, 18:53

Not a problem Ed. It was getting a little out of control but it was interesting to read the views.

Desert Reprobate

03-19-2009, 19:14

Any gun related thread has a tendency to get out of control. Lots of passion out there on both sides.

buff_jeff

03-19-2009, 20:13

I couldn't care less what anyone else decides to carry.

Personally, I'm not paranoid enough to carry a gun. Too much weight and I haven't had a problem yet. Not to mention the fact that I don't have the money to buy one.

oldfivetango

03-19-2009, 20:43

If you wanna carry,then carry.If you don't wanna,then dont.
(but if ya carry,please keep it concealed
as people wearing guns outside their pants like Poncho can even make
an NRA member nervous).
Now can't we all just get along?
Oldfivetango

f8lranger4x4

03-19-2009, 20:47

The best defence/weapon you can carry on the trail and in life is your head. Just use it and u will be ok. I solo hike all the time dayhikes and mutiple overnight hikes and thats what I would say.

prain4u

03-20-2009, 02:32

First, let me say that my sympathy goes out to all who have lost a loved one to violence (especially violence on, or near, the AT). MY comments below are BY NO MEANS intended to minimize their tremendous loss.
____________________

As much as I might want to carry a firearm on the AT (and I HAVE indeed carried concealed firearms at other times and places in my lifetime), I keep reminding myself that STATISTICALLY SPEAKING the AT is overall a pretty safe place. This safety is especially true if you are a MALE thru hiker. (Ironically, it is males planning a thru hike who seem to be the ones who are doing the most talk of carrying a concealed weapon!).

Let us ask ourselves: How many MALE THRU HIKERS have been killed on the AT due to human violence in the last 20 years? Conversely, how many male thru hikers (or males attempting a thru hike) have there been (in total) over the past 20 years? When you compare those two numbers, it is pretty clear that your odds of being killed as a result of human violence are pretty small on the AT (ESPECIALLY if you are a male thru hiker). You probably have a far greater chance of being struck by lightening, being killed by a falling limb or dying from hypothermia.

Statistically speaking, I am far safer on the AT than when I am in my home area (and that is probably true for most of us!). I don't normally carry a firearm when I am in my usual environment. Thus, it seems kind of silly for me to carry a firearm when I eventually thru hike a trail as safe as the AT.