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Where do I find out about trail texture and general difficulty-other than elevation changes- for sections of the trail..say like the Whites or the 100 Mile wilderness?
Where do I find out about trail texture and general difficulty-other than elevation changes- for sections of the trail..say like the Whites or the 100 Mile wilderness?
Not to be flippant, but you find it either by walking it or reading the trail registers from hikers coming the opposite direction. Pennsylvania is brutally rocky in its northern 2/3rd's. The south is often rooty, and otherwise rocky. But you can't account for these until you're there.
So get out there and hike!
You gave me answer I expected, yet I was hoping beyond hope that there would be some standardized trail difficulty coefficient to aid me in planning on how many bottles of nail polish to take.
Buy your nail polish along the way. Over a bottle of tequila in Hot Springs, my girlfriend painted my bruised toenails a vibrant green, just to cover up how darned ugly they were. :D
_terrapin_
01-06-2008, 17:25
You gave me answer I expected, yet I was hoping beyond hope that there would be some standardized trail difficulty coefficient to aid me in planning on how many bottles of nail polish to take.
What you're talking about (I presume) is more like a "noise" rating than an elevation-change rating. I agree, that would be interesting and useful... though I'm not sure it's entirely possible. Is there some math we could apply? Some kind of Fourier spectra of vertical elevation change?
I can think of some mountains where the trail on the S side was mean and gnarly and the trail on the N side was a cakewalk. Or sections that looked "flat" on the profile and still took it out of me.
Sounds like the perfect project for you _terrapin_. Let us know when you've found the answer, ok?:D
Yes, I am looking for a noise type rating, but since I do not own a titanium slide rule, I was hoping for something that captures how rocky.rooty, course the trail surface is. Maybe even a comparison to other trail sections...
When I was in Hot Springs the pizza girl at the paddlers pub could not be coereced into painting my nails, but I did ask.
What you ask for is so subjective it would be impossible to assign meaningful values to individual segments of the A.T. What individuals report would vary not only based upon the individual, temperature and weather, but also the time of the month.;)
If you want to hike the A.T., I'd suggest you hike it without preconceived notions of what some typical someone should be expected to expect or alternatively plan for the best while being prepared at all times for the worst. You might be pleasantly surprised.:)
the_iceman
01-06-2008, 18:16
I thru-hiked this year and found trail surface and heat to be two huge factors that limited my speed on a given day. I, like you, had wished for a book or notes to warn me of what was ahead. Here is what I remember. It is different for each person and this is no way meant to belittle trail maintainers. I think some of what I saw was more club policy. My hat is off to anyone who helps in anyway keep these trails alive. As thru-hikers we need to do our part on the trail every day.
This was a drought year and I do not do well in the heat. From the mid-Atlantic to Maine we had days where I sweated so bad it was as if I just stepped out of a swimming pool. Dehydration was always a factor and water was scarce. Thanks to all the trail angels that left water at road crossings.
Then there is the trail surface. I was fine until PA. I had some minor issues from foot surgery just 4 weeks before the hike but PA killed me and caused a stress fracture I just had to keep walking on.
The rocks started just north of the Doyle and (unlike I was led to believe) actually ran all the way to High Point, NJ. I got the stress fracture from a bad twist just inside of New Jersey by Sunfish Pond. The rocks come in patches. You can be cruising along and then just hit a mile or 3 of rocks you cannot avoid.
There are 3 different classes of rocks in PA. The “soul biters” which are golf ball sized and pointed on all edges. These are best handled with boots as far as I can tell since that is what I wore and these did not bother me. You just walk over them. People in trail runners could feel these under foot.
Then there are the “melon rocks” These are round rocks that range from cantaloupe to water melon sized and are so closely piled you cannot step between them. There is also not a single flat surface on which to get a good footing. These hurt me the worst causing my feet to twist inside my boots and my feet to slip off and wedge in crevasses. I had numerous falls on these. These appear to be better handled in running shoes that contour to the rock and have exceptional grip.
Then there is the “boulder fields and jagged ledge” where the trail goes in one side and you get to guess the route. PA does not believe in marking the rocks with blazes so there is a good deal of hunting for the trail in these areas. You have to scramble up and down ledges and boulders and sometimes go out of your way to do so. Heaven forbid they might make the trail too easy! These just take a lot of time to maneuver.
We always reminded ourselves that the number 1 user of the trail is the day hiker, followed by weekender, section hiker, and finally the lowly “prima donna” thru-hiker. Because of this I think some trail routers make the trail “as interesting as possible” by including rock scrambles and death defying ledges. Remember day hikers do not “have” to hike in the rain.
Aside from PA each state has its own surprises. There is a section in NJ between East and West Mombashi (sp?) roads that is beautiful unless of course you are caught on the ledges in a thunderstorm.
Then there is a little stretch just south of Harriman (Bear Mountain) State Park called “Agony Grind” that no one talks about but it takes you up and down ledges for no reason on a trail that looks like it had its last round of maintenance by Teddy Roosevelt.
There is a re-route in Connecticut that took the trail out of Cornwall and over a ugly, useless patch of Sharon Mountain thus bypassing the free beer in Cornwall Bridge. Sharon Mountain is full of ledges and (having grown up there) famous for rattle snakes.
MA and VT are not too bad.
New Hampshire has plenty of challenges once you reach the Dartmouth Outing Club area and that carries thru until Grafton Notch where the MATC takes over from the AMC. It seems that these clubs are proud of having the oldest trails in the nation and want you to feel what it was like hiking 100 years ago when there were no switchbacks, water bars, or even blazes in some areas.
Around the lakes in Maine can be full of rocks and roots but you are heading into the final stretch so you deal with it.
Where do I find out about trail texture and general difficulty-other than elevation changes- for sections of the trail..say like the Whites or the 100 Mile wilderness?
You'll have to make up your own rating system, then form a committee to standardize it, like downhill ski binding settings, whitewater class ratings, or rock climbing difficulty ratings.
Aside from that, I've read somewhere (I'm thinking possibly in the late Ed Garvey's writings) of climbs rated in letters A,B,C, etc. He may have gotten those from the PATC of which he was a member.
He thruhiked in 1970, writing a book and gaining notoriety for the AT, and did a partial thruhike in 1990 at age 75 (skipping from the Whites south to Pennsylvania, I believe).
john gault
01-06-2008, 18:35
...I was hoping for something that captures how rocky.rooty, course the trail surface is. Maybe even a comparison to other trail sections...
I've always wanted a resource like this, but have not found one yet. Like BEARPAW said:
"Not to be flippant, but you find it either by walking it or reading the trail registers from hikers coming the opposite direction. Pennsylvania is brutally rocky in its northern 2/3rd's. The south is often rooty, and otherwise rocky. But you can't account for these until you're there.
So get out there and hike!"
Elevation profiles are great, but they don't tell one how rocky, rooty, muddy...the trail is. And other perspectives suck, but what else do you have to talk about. BTW, If I ever meet you on the trail don't talk to me about painting toe nails!
It is what it is.
Suprised at some of these responses. I would also be interested in this.
I rate trail by the highly technical: could my Mother walk on this.
the_iceman
01-06-2008, 18:50
As I mentioned above different foot wear is better on different sections of the trail but no one carries (almost no one anyway) multiple types of footwear.
Attitude is the next big factor. I have had days that “sucked” and had people come into camp and say “wow, today was awesome” and vice versa. There were days that my partner cruised and I suffered (like most of PA) but when we got to New Hampshire I was in my glory and he suffered.
You cannot change the trail but it will change you.
Suprised at some of these responses. I would also be interested in this.
I rate trail by the highly technical: could my Mother walk on this.
mudhead, I've never met you or your mother. Long before the idea of a 2000-mile A.T. hike ever crossed my mind, I hiked with my mother on the Pennsylvania A.T. and I don't recall her ever complaining, seriously.
_terrapin_
01-06-2008, 19:21
mudhead, I've never met you or your mother. Long before the idea of a 2000-mile A.T. hike ever crossed my mind, I hiked with my mother on the Pennsylvania A.T. and I don't recall her ever complaining, seriously.
MapMan's figures confirm it; PA's the easiest state on the trail in terms of vertical elevation change. The only thing challenging is the footing, at times. Well, OK, Lehigh Gap was a trip, but it's the exception, not the rule.
the_iceman
01-06-2008, 19:26
Or some anyway. The 501 and Eckville (sp?). Let's not fail to mention the Doyle, and the town hall in Palmerton. But it still has the worst trail surface.
saimyoji
01-06-2008, 19:30
mudhead, I've never met you or your mother. Long before the idea of a 2000-mile A.T. hike ever crossed my mind, I hiked with my mother on the Pennsylvania A.T. and I don't recall her ever complaining, seriously.
Heh heh. I use the CAFYOHI method. (Could My Five Year Old Hike It.)
Your spelling is correct and I won't dispute your claim.
Someone said earlier the A.T. is what it is. Someone hiking it must accept it as it is and hike it as it is. Hikers wishing it were something other than what it is are likely to have an unpleasant experience.
People who want to change the A.T. should join maintaining clubs and get involved. What seems obvious to the hiker is more often than not as it is for a reason and often not easily remedied.
Heh heh. I use the CAFYOHI method. (Could My Five Year Old Hike It.)
Do you have a map of the Pennsylvania A.T. indicating which portions your 5-year-old could hike? I assume that means with you present rather than unassisted. Is your CAFYOHI rating influenced by your own tolerance level on the particular day you conduct the trial?:)
Lone Wolf
01-06-2008, 20:46
Where do I find out about trail texture and general difficulty-other than elevation changes- for sections of the trail..say like the Whites or the 100 Mile wilderness?
just walk. figure it out
River Runner
01-06-2008, 20:49
The guidebooks do give some indication of what the trail is like. Not a rating system, but in general terms.
Heh heh. I use the CAFYOHI method. (Could My Five Year Old Hike It.)
This is better than the Mother trail rating system.
I have seem some rugrats that were like a cross between Stretch Armstong and Spiderman. In 4-wheel drive.
saimyoji
01-06-2008, 21:53
Do you have a map of the Pennsylvania A.T. indicating which portions your 5-year-old could hike? I assume that means with you present rather than unassisted. Is your CAFYOHI rating influenced by your own tolerance level on the particular day you conduct the trial?:)
All over Hawk Mtn. but not over the N. Lookout up to the AT. From 309 south to the shelter, and north to about wolf rocks. Then BOK, Ashfield Gap up to Lehigh Gap. Then Little Gap south the Lehigh Gap, then Water Gap up to SF pond.
Got it. Now for the hard part.:-? Do you believe a typical A.T. hiker from away who hikes from either terminus to Pennsylvania is as tough as your 5-year-old on an ordinary summer day?
Please keep in mind a typical A.T. hiker has longer legs than your 5-year-old. I'm not sure how much more of the Pennsylvania A.T. that typical A.T. hiker should expect to be able to hike without whining.
I look forward to your reply.
Blissful
01-06-2008, 23:15
This is better than the Mother trail rating system.
I have seem some rugrats that were like a cross between Stretch Armstong and Spiderman. In 4-wheel drive.
I don't know but you should have seen this nine year old girl tackling the Presidentials. The rocks were like pebbles. Ah youth. We make such a bigger stink out of sections - to be sure (I was reading some of my own rants about NH / ME on my journal earlier tonight)
I really enjoyed one rant in particular. It's just too hard to predict what sections will elicit a rant though.
If only everyone had the same reaction at the same time, then I could just subscribe to the feed for certain sections, but now I'm whining. Maybe maintainers should put w's along the A.T. like railroads put near road crossings.:D
The funniest thing is watching PCT hikers deal with the annoying sections of the AT.
Back to the OP before I veer into other observations :) , there has already been developed a Universal Trail Assessment Process (UTAP) to answer this very question.
This vendor appears to be leading the charge out west, with the aim of planting a Carsonite post at each trailhead with "Trail Facts" objectively determined:
http://www.beneficialdesigns.com/trails/utap.html
They had on the floor at the PTBA http://www.trailbuilders.org/ conference (a couple of years ago, and probably will again) a kind of instrumented baby stroller for collecting the objective data.
I must admit I initially scoffed at this concept but the more I think about it the more I like the idea of somehow presenting objective information about trail "noise" to users before they start. If this catches on then perhaps it will be a challenge to some to take on "noisier" trails akin to the climbers and boulderers.
I hope someone official higher-up in ATC or the like can chime in on whether UTAP or something like it is heading our way.
Heh heh. I use the CAFYOHI method. (Could My Five Year Old Hike It.)
My daughter who will be 5 next month demands to be carried on flat dirt or paved trails, but climbed and descended the Standing Stone Trail's Thousand Steps (see partway down this page for photo: http://www.greateasterntrail.org/ ) unassisted (but supervised...). I haven't taken her to Lehigh Gap yet but I expect she'll eat that up. :)