Where Have All the Backpackers Gone?
By Steve Fagin
Published on 2/14/2008

Not too many years ago, it seems, going for a hike meant strapping on a backpack stuffed with food, clothes, stove, tent and sleeping bag.

I remember leaving my home in southeastern Connecticut no later than 2 a.m. for trips north to the White, Green or Adirondack mountains in order to be on the trail by dawn, for one good reason: The early bird got the best, or sometimes only available campsite, or space in a lean-to.

The woods were crawling with backpackers in their tie-died T-shirts and Keep on Truckin’ patches in the 1970s, when the back-to-earth movement had taken root following Woodstock, the Summer of Love and the first Earth Day. The number of hikers hitting the trail continued to grow through the 1980s, but since then – and especially during the past several years – there has been a steady decline as more people appear to have found comfort in The Great Indoors.

“We’re more than a little concerned,” Al Sochard, camps chair for New Hampshire’s Randolph Mountain Club told me the other day as we hiked down the snow-covered Lowe’s Path north of Mount Adams. The club maintains a network of nearly 110 miles of hiking trails, as well as two cabins, one lean-to, an Adirondack-style shelter and four tent platforms. It charges overnight visitors modest fees to offset the cost of caretaker salaries and other expenses, but for the past few years has run up a deficit because there are fewer campers spending the night, Sochard said.

More people are driving to trailheads and taking day hikes than spending days or weeks in the woods, he theorized.

Last week a report in the online edition of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences confirmed Sochard’s concerns. A study funded by The Nature Conservancy found that camping, fishing and visits to parks are all declining as part of a trend away from nature-based recreation. This is bad news for the environment, and for human health.

“Declining nature participation has crucial implications for current conservation efforts,” co-authors Oliver R. W. Pergams and Patricia A. Zaradic told The Associated Press. “We think it probable than any major decline in the value placed on natural areas and experiences will greatly reduce the value people place on biodiversity conservation.”

The researchers added, “The replacement of vigorous outdoor activities by sedentary, indoor videophilia has far-reaching consequences for physical and mental health, especially in children. Videophilia has been shown to be a cause of obesity, lack of socialization, attention disorders and poor academic performance.”

Statistics on people trekking the 2,160-mile Appalachian Trail support their findings. The number of hikers surged through the 1970s and 1980s, but then began tailing off. In 2001, 2,375 northbounders started the trail in Georgia and 622 finished in Maine; in 2002, 1,875 started and 589 finished; in 2003, 1,750 started and 600 finished; in 2004, 1,535 started and 578 finished; in 2005, 1,392 started and 546 finished; and in 2006,1,150 started and 488 finished.

So, will backpacking one day be remembered as a quaint fad of a bygone era, like dancing the Macarena or playing with a hula-hoop? While I have no specific demographic data to report, I can say in recent years I’ve seen far more Baby Boomers on the trail than Gen-Xers, which does not bode well for the future.

But every so often I come across some younger hikers – such as a guy I met on the Long Trail in Vermont who went by the trail name “Panic” and did all his cooking with a stove he built from a cat food can he salvaged from a Dumpster; or a young woman named Juliane who hiked the 2,600-mile Pacific Crest Trail alone; or a Canadian medical student named Luc who had spent months in the Arctic studying snow geese – and my faith that the next generation will cherish and preserve the wilderness is restored.

http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?re=1d64cb09-e41d-4cdb-b310-171a1605179c
(http://www.theday.com/re_print.aspx?re=1d64cb09-e41d-4cdb-b310-171a1605179c)

The decline in thru-hiking attempts is a testament to the success of hiking games on X-Box and lobbying by L. Wolf to convince people that thru-hiking sucks.

Yay!

A decline in hiker numbers is in increase in solitude. There is a bright side to every story.
As long as people need adventure in their lives, there will be backpackers.

Im pretty young and yeah not many people my age are into backpacking. I only have one friend that i do my trips with. To me its not a problem, i go out in the woods to escape people and be away from civilization. As long as there is a dirt path that is in relatively decent shape that is fine with me, shelters, lean-to's and tent platforms can go to hell :)

Done-in-a-day activities are the way of the day. They are the bread and butter of the REI where I work. As for backpacking, however, I see a strong force for weekenders, not long-distance hikers.

I believe the key is WORK. Say what you will, but Americans spend a lot more time on the job than they did a generation or two ago. My father and mother both have worked a 40 hour week for a living in the same jobs since the 1980's. They can't believe I could work a 40-hour week teaching, put in another 10 in lesson planning, work 12-20 at REI, AND work on my masters degree - and ultimately have less to show for it. Of course, my parents' mortgage was $130 a month. I'm living in CHEAP housing for $500 a month.

I have LOTS of education. For the average American with a high school education (more than my dad and as much as my mom), there is just no way to make it independently on a 40-hour-week income. They're looking at two jobs, minimum. For professionals, they are working MUCH more than 40 hours a week usually, and are typically hesitant to take any real length of vacation. It's a part of our culture, and it's killing us.

I remember when I was getting out of the Marine Corps and planning to thru-hike. My dad asked if I really thought it was a good idea to take so long off without getting a job. I told him after seeing enough friends die in the Corps, I realized "retirement" was NOT guaranteed, so I was damned sure going to take some along the way.

I think most folks would benefit from some retirement "along the way".

Where have all the backpackers gone? They're working.......:(

Using thru-hiking stats to determine the amount of backpackers or popularity of backpacking in general is probably not the most scientific way of proving a point. Having said that, promoting AT thru-hiking does squat to promote backpacking. Very few have the time, drive, opportunity or means to take a 4-6 month vacation to lug a backpack for 2000 miles. Almost anyone can take an overnight or several night backpacking trip in the woods. Most backpacking enthusiasts fall in that category.

See Tea and Bloodmountainman's posts. Yup.

When I was growing up, shows like Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett were big. They formed in me a romantic notion of the wilderness that transformed me.
I thought of the woods and mountops as a way to find peace and solitude and they instilled in me a sincere and deeply felt thankfulness for their beauty.
They built in me a sense of belonging which I failed to find in a fast paced world where one could get lost in a crowd.
When I am alone in the wild, I feel fulfilled.
I fear that young people are missing the healing wonders of the natural world, being held captive by the false sense of security offered by the comforts of technology.
How can we instill in our young people the love for the natural world?
Taking them out there is a good start.
Bring back Boone and Crockett

Great post, Bearpaw.

Yes, on the serious side, it is a concern. People have other interests. I know there is a sort of gloating "the more woods for me, then" attitude, but we need friends in this activity, or the woods will end up cut down for townhouse developments.

The decline in thru-hiking attempts is a testament to the success of hiking games on X-Box and lobbying by L. Wolf to convince people that thru-hiking sucks. Yay!

I try to do my part and convince them they are doomed from the start :D

But in all seriousness..The number of starters/finishers listed in that story seems to put the success rate up near the 40% rate in recent years...I seem to recall reading a much lower rate of success even on the ATC website :confused:

Fine with me.
I've seen the Kayaking sport go from a handful of enthusiasts searching for bigger and more adventurous rivers to hundreds even on a weekday lining up to get their 1 minute of excitement in a side surfing hole or the like.
I gave up the sport. I am not into waiting in line for my thrills.

Maybe that's why i prefer the wilds of the west over the east coast crowds. Ever get to a flat camping spot in the whites only to find out that there are 3 college groups sleeping there that night and you count 75 people trying to fit into 5 tent sites? No thanks.

Yes, on the serious side, it is a concern. People have other interests. I know there is a sort of gloating "the more woods for me, then" attitude, but we need friends in this activity, or the woods will end up cut down for townhouse developments.
I agree this is a serious issue. A decline in outdoor activity leads to apathy in environmental policy. Young people today HAVE to be work driven just to survive the day to day. When they finally have time off, they more than often ,want rest over recreation.
I believe there will always be hikers on the trails and campers in the woods. Eventually work drives the spirit back into the real world, where it belongs. There will always be enough to care.

........
I fear that young people are missing the healing wonders of the natural world, being held captive by the false sense of security offered by the comforts of technology.
How can we instill in our young people the love for the natural world?
Taking them out there is a good start.
Bring back Boone and CrockettI agree. I have a group of reliable backpacking friends. There are at least 10 of us. We range in age from mid 20's to late 50's. We have been backpacking together in different group sizes and participants for over 15 years. One of my buddies started bringing his two sons on and off when they were in elementary school. They are now 15 and 17. They will always have the backpacking bug in their blood. While their focus right now is more on girls, cars and high school right now, I know they will be back to the mountains. That's how it worked for me. The lesson? Introduce and facilitate backpacking to anyone you think has even a remote interest. It's a hobby that does not lend itself well to a self-starter.

....Eventually work drives the spirit back into the real world, where it belongs....

Agreed. That's pretty much what happened to me.

Done-in-a-day activities are the way of the day. They are the bread and butter of the REI where I work. As for backpacking, however, I see a strong force for weekenders, not long-distance hikers.

I believe the key is WORK. Say what you will, but Americans spend a lot more time on the job than they did a generation or two ago. My father and mother both have worked a 40 hour week for a living in the same jobs since the 1980's. They can't believe I could work a 40-hour week teaching, put in another 10 in lesson planning, work 12-20 at REI, AND work on my masters degree - and ultimately have less to show for it. Of course, my parents' mortgage was $130 a month. I'm living in CHEAP housing for $500 a month.

I have LOTS of education. For the average American with a high school education (more than my dad and as much as my mom), there is just no way to make it independently on a 40-hour-week income. They're looking at two jobs, minimum. For professionals, they are working MUCH more than 40 hours a week usually, and are typically hesitant to take any real length of vacation. It's a part of our culture, and it's killing us.

I remember when I was getting out of the Marine Corps and planning to thru-hike. My dad asked if I really thought it was a good idea to take so long off without getting a job. I told him after seeing enough friends die in the Corps, I realized "retirement" was NOT guaranteed, so I was damned sure going to take some along the way.

I think most folks would benefit from some retirement "along the way".

Where have all the backpackers gone? They're working.......:(

Very well stated, as usual.

The dilemma of doing what we're told we should be doing and what we want or can be doing is a constant struggle in my head.

Here is the deal, I leave to hike from Katahdin on June 10th. The plan for now is to stop somewhere around Gorham. There is a chance that my wife could be in for a huge pay increase before then and so my thoughts have turned to certain "what-ifs". What if she does and she tells me to go ahead and keep hiking? What if I compromise and finish everything I have left to do of the trail? What if I quit my job to do this? What if I just come home when I am supposed to and go back to work and save all that money for the baby we hope to have in the next couple of years? These are the thoughts that cloud the brain. If she gets the increase in pay(more than twice her current salary) then the plan would be for me to go back to school anyways to get my masters and Phd. We also had said if we could swing it the person making the least money would be a stay at home parent...which means me, with my lousy teacher pay, becomes Mr. Mom anyways.

So some days I think just quit my job a year early and thru hike, might be my only chance in the next twenty years, and some days I say I should work for a year more and put all that money away.

I guess most folk in America today choose to work that extra year instead of going out to hike.

If a thru-hike is important to you and your wife agrees, do it. Mostly you regret the things you don't do, not the things you do.

I guess most folk in America today choose to work that extra year instead of going out to hike.

There will always be work for a good teacher. There may not always be time for a thru-hike when your family becomes the focus of your life. I expect to have my first child within the next couple or three years. I imagine I will be hesitant to be away from my family more than a couple of weeks at a time then. I'm glad I thru-hiked when I did. At least as a teacher, I can now feed my hiking habit on every long break.

My instinct and desire tell me to do the hike if she gets the new job...and she agrees, so that isn't the issue, I've already got a few hundred miles of the trail finished, what I am saying is that if hiker trash like myself has these thoughts pop into his head, just think about other people and why they do what they do.

My cousin once said to me while hiking in Colorado 10 years ago,"No one ever laid on their death bed and said that they wish they had worked harder in their life". My cousin told me this story after one of his uncles (not on my side of the family) retired at 63 and (yes, you guessed it) died at 65 of cancer. That story has always scared me, especially now that I'm hitting 40 this June and wish to hike more.

The stats are suspicious, but who knows. The number of starters is in rapid decline, but the number of finishers remains relatively constant. Back in the dark ages (20 yrs ago) the quoted success rate was 10%. Then I recalibrated upwards, to around 15-20%. But these stats have it at 40%. Does anyone else find that a bit strange? :-?

It might be that a lot more people are yellowblazing and not admitting it?

The stats are suspicious, but who knows. The number of starters is in rapid decline, but the number of finishers remains relatively constant. Back in the dark ages (20 yrs ago) the quoted success rate was 10%. Then I recalibrated upwards, to around 15-20%. But these stats have it at 40%. Does anyone else find that a bit strange? :-?

You are correct.

The numbers come right off the ATC website but are misinterpreted. He quotes the starting number of NOBOers but uses the number who gained 2000-miler status as the number who completed, even though it includes SOBOers, flip-floppers, and section hikers as well as NOBOers. Even the ATC numbers don't exactly add up right, at least not for 2006. Shoddy journalism.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.851143/

It might be that a lot more people are yellowblazing and not admitting it?You mean more people are yellowblazing and lying about it.

Where have all the backpackers gone? They're working.......:(

Unfortunately, I think you're right, though it has been this way for some time. Earl S. was the first to do it (1948?) and some say it couldn't have happened earlier due to economic conditions (viz., lack of leisure time. Not to mention the Depression, followed by a World War...) I think the financial squeeze is back, or at least coming back. Leisure time may have peaked.

In any case, the majority of thru-hikers have traditionally been folks with minimal responsibility and debt. Retirees, folks just out of the military, or just out of school. You don't see many middle-aged folks, they're hunkered down with families, mortgages, and careers. If these folks are hiking at all, they're doing weekends and short sections.

Besides the covered-in-another-recent-thread stuff, of videophilia replacing outdoor activities, the Boomers getting older/sicker, fewer kids growing up with fathers in the house, an ever-higher % of Americans being ethnic minorities (who historically mostly have much less interest in nonurban/suburban sports), etc.

It's that the primary group that does outdoor sports such as hiking, rockclimbing, hunting, etc., is being taught from an early age to be risk-avoiders. Decent article on this: http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/essays/41/

MS, that's arguably one of the worst essays ever written. Not surprised you love it.

You mean more people are yellowblazing and lying about it.

I was trying to be diplomatic. It's just that I spent about 8 days on the trail in Maine in September last year, from Monson to Jo-Mary Road, and the number of thru-hikers I saw didn't add up for me. . . :( Maybe there is a big rush in August or earlier in September?

I was trying to be diplomatic. It's just that I spent about 8 days on the trail in Maine in September last year, from Monson to Jo-Mary Road, and the number of thru-hikers I saw didn't add up for me. . . :( Maybe there is a big rush in August or earlier in September?A lot do finish in July, August, early September, and a few even into October.

MS, that's arguably one of the worst essays ever written. Not surprised you love it.I didn't look at it until your post. I'm not surprised MS calls it a "decent article", it's the same kind of vulgar, unintelligent, misogynistic drivel he spouts himself.

MS, that's arguably one of the worst essays ever written. Not surprised you love it.

If you are finding the messenger gets in the way of you getting the message:

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

#s 48, 78, 80, 81, 92, 93, 97, 113, 115, 123, 134, 135, 137, 167, 172, 178, 202, 207, 229, 272, 275, 276, 324, 348

Excellent post (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=541400#post541400), Bearpaw!

Fine with me.
I've seen the Kayaking sport go from a handful of enthusiasts searching for bigger and more adventurous rivers to hundreds even on a weekday lining up to get their 1 minute of excitement in a side surfing hole or the like.
I gave up the sport. I am not into waiting in line for my thrills.

Maybe that's why i prefer the wilds of the west over the east coast crowds. Ever get to a flat camping spot in the whites only to find out that there are 3 college groups sleeping there that night and you count 75 people trying to fit into 5 tent sites? No thanks.

This covers alot. Waiting in line for anything is low on my list.

RMC, last I checked, allowed overnight dogs on voice command. Not high on my list, either.

I was trying to be diplomatic. It's just that I spent about 8 days on the trail in Maine in September last year, from Monson to Jo-Mary Road, and the number of thru-hikers I saw didn't add up for me. . . :( Maybe there is a big rush in August or earlier in September?

I would trust The Ferryman's numbers. I hiked K to Monson sobo starting 9/4/90. I recognized at least a dozen names on the Ranger's list at K, and met another dozen or so hikers I knew between there and Monson.

It's that the primary group that does outdoor sports such as hiking, rockclimbing, hunting, etc., is being taught from an early age to be risk-avoiders. You don't hang around skateboarders much, do you?

You don't hang around skateboarders much, do you?

Funny but you miss the point DWM, young males jump off of bridges into creeks and sign up to be paratroopers as soon as they can (at least some do), all against Mom's advice, just like skateboarding.

You don't hang around skateboarders much, do you?

There may be plenty of black/Hispanic skateboarders, but people of those races don't hunt or thruhike much. I specifically excluded sports that are normally done primarily in urban/suburban areas, or on concrete/asphalt, as these activities don't lead to adding more users of the deep woods as are LD hikers. Skateboarders are both of these.

There may be plenty of black/Hispanic skateboarders ... That answers my question.

That answers my question.

What question would that be? I've seen black skateboarders, although most were whites.

How sad! We are helping to change that through my daughter and of course any future children that we have together. I can not imagine not spending time outdoors. I think the key is promotion. If they promoted the outdoors, going on a hike, ect. the way that they promote a new movie or video game it would be the other way around. This kind of goes along with a lot of the other F***ed up things about our "fat" society. It is a shame but the bottom line is that there is no money in "the outdoors" the way that there is money in media. The tiny amount of money that our government invests in such promotion or education is just plain sad. The only chance that there is to take it upon ourselves privately to "get involved". If it's not financial support then volunteer or just take a kid on a hike! I for one my whole life have been what I consider to be an outdoors enthusiast and as I said hope to pass that to all the young people in my life.


Where Have All the Backpackers Gone?
By Steve Fagin
Published on 2/14/2008

Not too many years ago, it seems, going for a hike meant strapping on a backpack stuffed with food, clothes, stove, tent and sleeping bag.

I remember leaving my home in southeastern Connecticut no later than 2 a.m. for trips north to the White, Green or Adirondack mountains in order to be on the trail by dawn, for one good reason: The early bird got the best, or sometimes only available campsite, or space in a lean-to.

The woods were crawling with backpackers in their tie-died T-shirts and Keep on Truckin’ patches in the 1970s, when the back-to-earth movement had taken root following Woodstock, the Summer of Love and the first Earth Day. The number of hikers hitting the trail continued to grow through the 1980s, but since then – and especially during the past several years – there has been a steady decline as more people appear to have found comfort in The Great Indoors.

“We’re more than a little concerned,” Al Sochard, camps chair for New Hampshire’s Randolph Mountain Club told me the other day as we hiked down the snow-covered Lowe’s Path north of Mount Adams. The club maintains a network of nearly 110 miles of hiking trails, as well as two cabins, one lean-to, an Adirondack-style shelter and four tent platforms. It charges overnight visitors modest fees to offset the cost of caretaker salaries and other expenses, but for the past few years has run up a deficit because there are fewer campers spending the night, Sochard said.

More people are driving to trailheads and taking day hikes than spending days or weeks in the woods, he theorized.

Last week a report in the online edition of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences confirmed Sochard’s concerns. A study funded by The Nature Conservancy found that camping, fishing and visits to parks are all declining as part of a trend away from nature-based recreation. This is bad news for the environment, and for human health.

“Declining nature participation has crucial implications for current conservation efforts,” co-authors Oliver R. W. Pergams and Patricia A. Zaradic told The Associated Press. “We think it probable than any major decline in the value placed on natural areas and experiences will greatly reduce the value people place on biodiversity conservation.”

The researchers added, “The replacement of vigorous outdoor activities by sedentary, indoor videophilia has far-reaching consequences for physical and mental health, especially in children. Videophilia has been shown to be a cause of obesity, lack of socialization, attention disorders and poor academic performance.”

Statistics on people trekking the 2,160-mile Appalachian Trail support their findings. The number of hikers surged through the 1970s and 1980s, but then began tailing off. In 2001, 2,375 northbounders started the trail in Georgia and 622 finished in Maine; in 2002, 1,875 started and 589 finished; in 2003, 1,750 started and 600 finished; in 2004, 1,535 started and 578 finished; in 2005, 1,392 started and 546 finished; and in 2006,1,150 started and 488 finished.

So, will backpacking one day be remembered as a quaint fad of a bygone era, like dancing the Macarena or playing with a hula-hoop? While I have no specific demographic data to report, I can say in recent years I’ve seen far more Baby Boomers on the trail than Gen-Xers, which does not bode well for the future.

But every so often I come across some younger hikers – such as a guy I met on the Long Trail in Vermont who went by the trail name “Panic” and did all his cooking with a stove he built from a cat food can he salvaged from a Dumpster; or a young woman named Juliane who hiked the 2,600-mile Pacific Crest Trail alone; or a Canadian medical student named Luc who had spent months in the Arctic studying snow geese – and my faith that the next generation will cherish and preserve the wilderness is restored.

http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?re=1d64cb09-e41d-4cdb-b310-171a1605179c
(http://www.theday.com/re_print.aspx?re=1d64cb09-e41d-4cdb-b310-171a1605179c)

If you are finding the messenger gets in the way of you getting the message:


No, it's the message.

Here you're saying that the primary group that does outdoor sports are risk-avoiders.


Besides the covered-in-another-recent-thread stuff, of videophilia replacing outdoor activities, the Boomers getting older/sicker, fewer kids growing up with fathers in the house, an ever-higher % of Americans being ethnic minorities (who historically mostly have much less interest in nonurban/suburban sports), etc.

It's that the primary group that does outdoor sports such as hiking, rockclimbing, hunting, etc., is being taught from an early age to be risk-avoiders. Decent article on this: ....


There may be plenty of black/Hispanic skateboarders, but people of those races don't hunt or thruhike much. I specifically excluded sports that are normally done primarily in urban/suburban areas, or on concrete/asphalt, as these activities don't lead to adding more users of the deep woods as are LD hikers. Skateboarders are both of these.

I didn't look at it until your post. I'm not surprised MS calls it a "decent article", it's the same kind of vulgar, unintelligent, misogynistic drivel he spouts himself.

Misogynistic!? Observing the essential differences between the sexes is annalagous to hatred of women? I really think you owe us a better explanation of your observation.

I gotta ask what hick town do you live in to stereotype people like that? A lot of time they don't have the resources to hike. I'm sure if you looked at a statistic of non-white people who were exposed to the outdoors at a young age and continued to be an enthusiast into adulthood I would guess that it's higher than it is for whites. I also skated for over 20 years and did so with a virtual melting pot of races. Man, you're killing me......

What question would that be? I've seen black skateboarders, although most were whites.

I hit reply too soon. I gave an example of young, middle-class, non-ethnic risk takers living in the suburbs. If that's not your target audience then what is?

Kids still take risks. Mommas have never been able to stop them, as Take-A-Knee agreed. The reason they're not participating in outdoor sports is not because they are too scared, which is what you implied.

Misogynistic!? Observing the essential differences between the sexes is annalagous to hatred of women? I really think you owe us a better explanation of your observation.If you read the linked page and are still asking the question and are not trying to be humorous, I doubt anything I or anyone else on WhiteBlaze could say would enlighten you. Print it out, show it around, and get some feedback from females you know and trust.

I also skated for over 20 years and did so with a virtual melting pot of races. ......Exactly. It's a widespread sport that appeals to a broad demographic of young people. It's also very risky. (How's your knees, Jason?)

Hiking and rock climbing are not in decline because kids won't take risks because their mommies won't let them. They are just finding alternative venues.

I hit reply too soon. I gave an example of young, middle-class, non-ethnic risk takers living in the suburbs. If that's not your target audience then what is?

Kids still take risks. Mommas have never been able to stop them, as Take-A-Knee agreed. The reason they're not participating in outdoor sports is not because they are too scared, which is what you implied.

I don't think the kids are scared, their darling mommies are always scared, and for far too many young boys and girls, mommy is the family's prime mover. Having grown up in the south, I know a lot of rural blacks who hunt and fish, it is a part of southern culture, both white and black. I don't know any black hikers or rock climbers though, and I believe economics, culture, and the dearth of intact nuclear families in the black community are the reason why.

I saw the insidious spread of risk avoidance firsthand in the Army. I was sent to SF's sniper school in 87, part of the course was to stand on the end of the target berm at night and have the instructors fire machineguns over the middle of the berm, you saw the tracers, heard the supersonic crack from the projectile, and heard the "thump' from the gun downrange (600yd). Many years later I had people look at me with disbelief when I told them that school actually did that. The one piece of paperwork that absolutely, postively must be done is an idiotic drill called a "Risk Assesment" before any training can be conducted

[quote=take-a-knee;542269]

I saw the insidious spread of risk avoidance firsthand in the Army. I was sent to SF's sniper school in 87, part of the course was to stand on the end of the target berm at night and have the instructors fire machineguns over the middle of the berm, you saw the tracers, heard the supersonic crack from the projectile, and heard the "thump' from the gun downrange (600yd).

=================================

That makes me wonder if they still run the night infiltration course in infantry AIT ( ...or was it basic - - ah the years) like they did in the late 60's. Crawled about 300 yards through knee deep mud, over burms and under concertina wire while the cadre fired 50 cal with staggered tracers about 3 feet over your head ...and all the while artillery simulators going off causing your body to rise off the ground a few inches. We actually had a couple guys stand up and try to run out off the range. Never did find out what happened to them. Was too intent on gettin my arse to the other end without ventillation holes in my fatigues.

I've drawn some open mouthed stares when I've told that story.

'Slogger

[quote=take-a-knee;542269]

I saw the insidious spread of risk avoidance firsthand in the Army. I was sent to SF's sniper school in 87, part of the course was to stand on the end of the target berm at night and have the instructors fire machineguns over the middle of the berm, you saw the tracers, heard the supersonic crack from the projectile, and heard the "thump' from the gun downrange (600yd).

=================================

That makes me wonder if they still run the night infiltration course in infantry AIT ( ...or was it basic - - ah the years) like they did in the late 60's. Crawled about 300 yards through knee deep mud, over burms and under concertina wire while the cadre fired 50 cal with staggered tracers about 3 feet over your head ...and all the while artillery simulators going off causing your body to rise off the ground a few inches. We actually had a couple guys stand up and try to run out off the range. Never did find out what happened to them. Was too intent on gettin my arse to the other end without ventillation holes in my fatigues.

I've drawn some open mouthed stares when I've told that story.

'Slogger

I doubt it Slogger, I talked to a Drill Sgt (SSG) from Ft Benning a few years ago and he was so disgusted he was getting out, he told me the trainees had "stress cards" they could deploy when they felt overwhelmed, this demanded a "time-out" of sorts for said trainee. I know you probably don't believe me and if I hadn't seen the pained expression on that young SSG's face I wouldn't have believed it either. When I was in basic a "time-out" consisted of getting stuffed into a 30gal trash can and rolled down the stairs by your DI. You avoided "time-outs" or anything else in the way of attention from your DI's. I'm sure your having gone through during wartime played a role, they tell me we are at war now, but I'm not so sure.

[quote=take-a-knee;542269]

I saw the insidious spread of risk avoidance firsthand in the Army. I was sent to SF's sniper school in 87, part of the course was to stand on the end of the target berm at night and have the instructors fire machineguns over the middle of the berm, you saw the tracers, heard the supersonic crack from the projectile, and heard the "thump' from the gun downrange (600yd).

=================================

That makes me wonder if they still run the night infiltration course in infantry AIT ( ...or was it basic - - ah the years) like they did in the late 60's. Crawled about 300 yards through knee deep mud, over burms and under concertina wire while the cadre fired 50 cal with staggered tracers about 3 feet over your head ...and all the while artillery simulators going off causing your body to rise off the ground a few inches. We actually had a couple guys stand up and try to run out off the range. Never did find out what happened to them. Was too intent on gettin my arse to the other end without ventillation holes in my fatigues.

I've drawn some open mouthed stares when I've told that story.

'Slogger

Yep, remember that well in Basic at Ft. Ord. DI's showed us a helmet with several MG bullet holes in it and let us all know to NOT get up and run once we're on the course lest we die like that poor soul did (well, we did believe it at the time LOL).

Realizing that this is continuing the topic shift, but after the last couple of posts I just have to:

In 1978 I declined promotion to SGM E-8 in favor of retirement as a MSG E-8. I was plumb sick and tired with the Wussification of what had been my whole life since the age of eighteen. Little things like the Private who would go to the Captain or Lt and whine and who would get a friendly pat on the back with a "that's all right son, I'll tell the mean old "Top" to ease up on you. The chain of command snapped somewhere. Probably with the introduction of VOLAR.

TW
US Army MSG E-8 (Retired) 55D50

Realizing that this is continuing the topic shift, but after the last couple of posts I just have to:

In 1978 I declined promotion to SGM E-8 in favor of retirement as a MSG E-8. I was plumb sick and tired with the Wussification of what had been my whole life since the age of eighteen. Little things like the Private who would go to the Captain or Lt and whine and who would get a friendly pat on the back with a "that's all right son, I'll tell the mean old "Top" to ease up on you. The chain of command snapped somewhere. Probably with the introduction of VOLAR.

TW
US Army MSG E-8 (Retired) 55D50

Agreed. IMO, VOLAR was the start of the downfall of things like Espirit De Corps, team work, mission accomplishment, and eventually the NCO Corps (which used to be the backbone of the Army).

After 13 years in (I was an SSG[P]) I had trouble adapting to the idea of "my" troops having 'coffee breaks', two hour lunches, and 'snow days', so I hung up my gear and got out. Just too much politics to suite me.

Chuck
SSG-13B30

Yeah, yeah, yeah....

You had sergeants?! We didn't have sergeants, we had corporals! They were God and tougher than any sergeant you ever had.

You had machine guns? We didn't need machine guns, our corporals had PFCs chew up bullets and spit them at us.

You probably had boots. We didn't have boots. We just painted our feet black and went through the obstacle course bare-foot.

And our obstacle course was three miles long, covered with snow and uphill both ways.

No wonder the kids aren't backpacing, the woods are full of old farts telling war stories.

#s 48, 78, 80, 81, 92, 93, 97, 113, 115, 123, 134, 135, 137, 167, 172, 178, 202, 207, 229, 272, 275, 276, 324, 348

You sound like a number station (http://www.damnintersesting.com/?p=570)

:( I have been hiking sections of the "AT" for 22-years and I definately see a serious decline in Backpackers. :(

I also belong to one of the "AT" maintaining-clubs. At our meetings I can not help but notice that over 95% of the folks there are "white-haired" (I'm 61). We are not getting any young members, nor do we or the ATC seem to be trying to reach young-folk. In fact I can not seem to find anybody in the club will to do a multi-day hike:eek:

To keep the "AT" alive for our g-kids & ggg-kids, we must get young-folk interested and involved in the "AT"

There are two kinds of people in America, those who live indoors and those who live outdoors. In the old days before the European invasion, basically all the people lived outdoors and were either "backpackers" or used a dog travois.

The more people lived out, the more they needed nature to survive and so worked out a system of both physical balance and religious overtones to it. Even today primitive peoples have a respect and regard for the land that is missing here today.

Currently we as a culture have bought into the propaganda of technology and that our higher standard of living is god's gift to his chosen people, etc. We therefore think we are progressing towards some Utopic state but in reality we are moving further and further away from the wisdom needed to coexist with the natural environment.

Enter then the Couch Potatoes, the highest form of the American Dream. Millions will watch INTO THE WILD on sore haunches but none will wonder what it's like to hike and camp across this still beautiful country.

For the most part, this country was founded by a christian people terrified of wilderness(just look around today), they saw nature as a satanic force meant to do them harm. And so we have seen several hundred years of conscious effort to tame wilderness on the one hand and on the other hand a strong unbridled attempt to live "comfortably" at all costs(mountaintop coal removal, unlimited car useage, roads and sprawl, uncontrolled population, etc).

So, kids today are brainwashed to stay indoors and in debt, to pursue the spurious American wetdream of a bigger house, a bigger paycheck, a bigger car, a bigger television and of course, a better couch.

Good rant, Tipi, in spite of the weak start. "There are two kinds of people in America." Feh. False dichotomies don't help.

There are two kinds of people in America, those who live indoors and those who live outdoors. In the old days before the European invasion, basically all the people lived outdoors and were either "backpackers" or used a dog travois.

The more people lived out, the more they needed nature to survive and so worked out a system of both physical balance and religious overtones to it. Even today primitive peoples have a respect and regard for the land that is missing here today.

Currently we as a culture have bought into the propaganda of technology and that our higher standard of living is god's gift to his chosen people, etc. We therefore think we are progressing towards some Utopic state but in reality we are moving further and further away from the wisdom needed to coexist with the natural environment.

Enter then the Couch Potatoes, the highest form of the American Dream. Millions will watch INTO THE WILD on sore haunches but none will wonder what it's like to hike and camp across this still beautiful country.

For the most part, this country was founded by a christian people terrified of wilderness(just look around today), they saw nature as a satanic force meant to do them harm. And so we have seen several hundred years of conscious effort to tame wilderness on the one hand and on the other hand a strong unbridled attempt to live "comfortably" at all costs(mountaintop coal removal, unlimited car useage, roads and sprawl, uncontrolled population, etc).

So, kids today are brainwashed to stay indoors and in debt, to pursue the spurious American wetdream of a bigger house, a bigger paycheck, a bigger car, a bigger television and of course, a better couch.

and yet you spend a LOT of time on a computer :D

So, kids today are brainwashed to stay indoors and in debt, to pursue the spurious American wetdream of a bigger house, a bigger paycheck, a bigger car, a bigger television and of course, a better couch.

Then one day you "wake up" and you find yourself stuck behind a computer screen reading and posting about being off the couch.

:( I have been hiking sections of the "AT" for 22-years and I definately see a serious decline in Backpackers. :(

I also belong to one of the "AT" maintaining-clubs. At our meetings I can not help but notice that over 95% of the folks there are "white-haired" (I'm 61). We are not getting any young members, nor do we or the ATC seem to be trying to reach young-folk. In fact I can not seem to find anybody in the club will to do a multi-day hike:eek:

To keep the "AT" alive for our g-kids & ggg-kids, we must get young-folk interested and involved in the "AT"

I met a ridgerunner in CT who told me the average age of trail maintainers in that section was 78.

I used to think that the early explosion of backpacking in the early 1970s stemmed from the first generation of television babies, suddenly realizing that the had missed their childhoods, and tried to catch up in their late teens and 20s.

I'm sort of hoping the first video game generation will experience a similar sudden awakening to the outdoors. I see small signs. The recruitment of new supporters for our Maine Appalachian TRail Land Trust shows some evidence of picking up, but it remains woefully inadequate.

Weary www.matlt.org