Soft shell vs hard shell ??

[scrivner]

Hello,

Looking for some more advice.

I'm confused by the soft shells and hard shells sold by various manufacturers.

For example, Patagonia has a jacket they call a Rain Shadow, hard shell, waterproof, 13oz breathable- they say..

They also have a soft shell they call a Houdini "sheds rain, gets you through a squall, highly breathable 3.5oz" they say.

The last goretex parka I had, about ten years ago, was also "breathable," but not really. It's was fine as long as I stood very still. Start moving and it was like being wrapped in saran wrap.

Then, my solution was an 8oz windshirt. Kept rain out for about 10 minutes. Then if rain continued I pulled out a poncho.

Has the tech improved? Are the hardshells really breathable for a person walking on a trail with a pack? Are the softshells really water repellent beyond the slightest drizzle?

Any input welcome. Am putting together a new outfit for summer in EU, much walking involved, various climates, from northern Spain, very little rain, to northern France, far amount of rain.

Primary focus is ultra light weight. Ten oz matters.

Am in recovery from serious illness, cannot carry much or walk hard. Yet.

Thanks in advance,

Scrivner

[highway]

It rains in northern Spain and rains a lot. The wettest part is Galicia in NW Spain.

Shells should vent as the breathable function often diminishes rapidly when it becomes worn. Pit zips are large on the Rainshadow and it is a good choice as would be Marmot Precip jacket, which also has large ones, both sub-1 pound, and they should be kept open unless you become cold. But for summer consider a poncho.

[Hoop]

"The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain..."

[highway]

"The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain..."

And that's a song lyric,
designed to rhyme!

[Tin Man]

Dang, I thought this thread was about crabs. Maryland Blue Crabs are the best!

[highway]

No, No!!
Best are from Tybee, secon best from Mayport, yours are a measly third, if you are talking about .... cakes or deviled ....!!

[Tin Man]

No, No!!
Best are from Tybee, secon best from Mayport, yours are a measly third, if you are talking about .... cakes or deviled ....!!

Cakes are great as long as it is 99% crabmeat. Eating crabs is all about sitting down at a picnic table overlooking the Chesapeake and the waitress brings 'em by the dozen, freshly steamed with Olde Bay seasoning, until you say stop.

[JAK]

my solution was an 8oz windshirt. Kept rain out for about 10 minutes. Then if rain continued I pulled out a poncho.Works for me.

I don't know what they mean by all this hard shell soft shell wind shirt wind breaker lingo either. I just know that a good wool sweater will work under pretty much anything in pretty much anything, and the lighter and more packable the wind layer and rain layers and skin layers the better.

[bigcranky]

The Houdini is a wind shirt. Fine for what it is, but not suitable for long-term cold wet weather.

Yes, you can buy hard shells that are breathable enough for hiking. Most shells made with eVent fabric, and the Montbell Peak parka work a lot better than other waterproof/breathable fabrics.

But, those shells cost a bundle. Rain protection is a personal and variable thing. Some people like a poncho, others a full rain suit -- it depends on time of year, location, etc. Out in California, you might be happy enough with a wind shirt and maybe an umbrella or a poncho.

[JAK]

The Houdini is a wind shirt. Fine for what it is, but not suitable for long-term cold wet weather.

Yes, you can buy hard shells that are breathable enough for hiking. Most shells made with eVent fabric, and the Montbell Peak parka work a lot better than other waterproof/breathable fabrics.

But, those shells cost a bundle. Rain protection is a personal and variable thing. Some people like a poncho, others a full rain suit -- it depends on time of year, location, etc. Out in California, you might be happy enough with a wind shirt and maybe an umbrella or a poncho.But isn't it best to keep functions separate, so you can combine one layer with another layer only when needed. The problem I see with hard shells, if they are what I think they are, is you can't remove the wind layer from the insulation layer. That might look and feel good in a store, but it sucks, really.

[JAK]

I like the way the wind blows through my 8oz or 16oz or 32oz wool sweater to my bare skin. If I stop or the weather gets colder I just add a 5 oz skin layer and/or 5 oz wind layer from my pocket or pack and BAM, instant parka.

[Jaybird62]

Cakes are great as long as it is 99% crabmeat. Eating crabs is all about sitting down at a picnic table overlooking the Chesapeake and the waitress brings 'em by the dozen, freshly steamed with Olde Bay seasoning, until you say stop.
I hear ya there buddy. Maybe someday when I have the big ol backyard, I will have a wb gettogether. Get up in the morning around 3 am , drive down to rock hall md, spend about 3 or 4 hours on the water catching a nice spread, and then have a good ol fashioned crab pickin eatin feast. Of course this will have to be a BYOB event, as the Old Bay seasoning tends to have a way of causing those suds to disappear quickly:eek::rolleyes:

[take-a-knee]

It is my understanding that the soft shell material is designed to provide just enough water resistance for light rain, sleet, snow, IE winter, mostly below freezing conditions, and enough insulation for moderate activity in the same. These are conditions that a Goretex jacket turns into a sauna in. So, this isn't something a typical thru hiker would use, unless he's starting on new years day, and then it would probably be the ticket for 6-8 weeks.

[JAK]

So I think you are saying that both soft shells and goretex jackets are poor choices for any thruhike or section hike because they are both overspeciallized compared to simpler and cheaper and lighter and more versatile alternatives, i.e. basic layering systems.

[take-a-knee]

So I think you are saying that both soft shells and goretex jackets are poor choices for any thruhike or section hike because they are both overspeciallized compared to simpler and cheaper and lighter and more versatile alternatives, i.e. basic layering systems.

Yes and no, the soft shell will be too warm to walk in (and yet not warm enough for camp) for most non-winter conditions on the AT, just like the Goretex will likely not breathe too well while you are walking. I would still take some sort of waterproof breathable jacket and pants until it gets really warm, then I'd just take a poncho for summer conditions.

[JAK]

There is much to be said for being cozy and comfy around camp at the end of the day.

I am impressed with the performance of my CF Gortex Bivy. I've been thinking about turning it into something I can wear also, to justify its weight. Some sort of heavy rain cloak, converting into bivy or bag cover at night. Wool sweater and such underneath of course.

[bigcranky]

JAK,

A "hard shell" is a rain jacket with no insulation. Think Goretex.

A "soft shell" means a variety of things, but in general it's a stretchy, wind- and water-resistant jacket with some insulating value and good breathability. They range from the Marmot DriClime jacket at the light end, to a windstopper fleece at the heavy end.

I don't think the heavier softshells are useful on multi-day trips, because they aren't warm enough or water-resistant enough for their weight and bulk. For the same weight as my windstopper fleece, I can carry both a Patagonia Micropuff pullover and a Precip jacket. Much more versatile, much less bulk, warmer and more waterproof.

But a "hard shell" is a basic layering piece in both the three-layer and four-layer systems.

[take-a-knee]

JAK,

A "hard shell" is a rain jacket with no insulation. Think Goretex.

A "soft shell" means a variety of things, but in general it's a stretchy, wind- and water-resistant jacket with some insulating value and good breathability. They range from the Marmot DriClime jacket at the light end, to a windstopper fleece at the heavy end.

I don't think the heavier softshells are useful on multi-day trips, because they aren't warm enough or water-resistant enough for their weight and bulk. For the same weight as my windstopper fleece, I can carry both a Patagonia Micropuff pullover and a Precip jacket. Much more versatile, much less bulk, warmer and more waterproof.

But a "hard shell" is a basic layering piece in both the three-layer and four-layer systems.

Well said, Precip and a patagonia puffball vest are my choices, and I have a n REI Gossamer hooded primaloft jacket also.

[take-a-knee]

So, IMO the soft shell is worth taking if you expect to be able to wear it most of the day, if this is the case it'll likely be way below freezing most of the time. If you only need warm camp wear, there are lighter, more compressible alternatives.

[Lilred]

good grief, now I'm more confused than ever. My frogg toggs and a fleece, hopefully, will do the trick.

[Tinker]

Hardshell: Completely windproof and waterproof, not very breathable. Depends on venting options (pit zips, etc.) to cool in hot weather. Often gets condensation inside.
Softshell: Mostly windproof and water resistant. Lets some wind through. Soaks through in heavy rain. Breathes well. Insulated to some extent like bicycle tights. Too warm for summer, too cool for winter. Spring and fall use, mainly.
I use a Precip (open to other options - tried "Drop Stoppers Micropore" - less condensation than Precip but not as durable) and a windshirt - used separately or together. Light full zip pile jacket for spring, fall, and summer, Polarguard for really cold days or camp wear. Down jacket in the worst of the winter (sometimes I bring an old Goretex jacket instead of the Precip).

[bigcranky]

good grief, now I'm more confused than ever. My frogg toggs and a fleece, hopefully, will do the trick.

Your Frogg Toggs and fleece will do fine.

Basic layers:

1. Base layer: light, synthetic or wool next-to-skin layer. Long sleeve or short sleeve depending on weather. Worn all the time.
2. Insulation layer: lots of options. Fleece, down, synthetic puffy insulation, etc. Worn in camp and at rest breaks when cold. Generally not worn while actually hiking.
3. Shell (hard shell): waterproof layer for bad weather. Goretex, Precip, Frogg Toggs, etc.

Many hikers, myself included, add a 4th layer:

4. Wind shirt. A very light (~ 3 ounces) wind shirt made of a single layer of nylon or polyester. Worn over the base layer when hiking in chilly or windy weather. Much more useful than its weight might indicate.

It should be obvious, but let me add that you would take different layers depending on when and where you are hiking, and your own basic response to cold. Winter in the Whites demands totally different layers than spring in Georgia or summer in the Grand Canyon.

[Kerosene]

For trips where the temps shouldn't fall below 30F, I do just fine hiking in a long-sleeve base layer with the option to layer my rain jacket (Frogg Toggs originally and now eVent) to cut the wind or keep in the heat. In camp I'll layer with a 100-weight fleece, which I may replace with a lightweight down sweater if colder temps are possible. I'd consider the wind shirt if you expect to be in a high-wind area without trees, but otherwise I tend to do fine with the layering above.

Recognize that your body's thermostat will tend to adjust to lower temperatures the first week you're out of doors all day, so that you'll be a lot more comfortable in cooler temperatures than you would normally be going from heated building to your car.

Don't forget about your hands and head! I use a windproof skullcap (OR) and either bring lightweight gloves to walk in or an extra pair of SmartWools for camp feet and hiking hands.

[Kerosene]

.......

[scrivner]

Thanks for the input, the skies are clearing and I'm begining to see the light.