View Full Version : What would you do? Interesting Everest Story
fiddlehead
03-31-2008, 18:13
Interesting (although quite long) story about a situation on Mt Everest on the Tibet side. What would you do?
http://climb.mountainzone.com/2006/david_sharp/index.html
I am not a peak bagger and summiting Mount Everest is not a goal of mine.
I think folks do it anymore just to say that they have and don't enjoy it.
This story is about someone who most likely did it the way i would have and died trying. But, after reading it, you have to wonder about his outlook on human compassion while he lay there dying.
brotheral
03-31-2008, 19:44
I value Life, My Family, Fiiends, & Loved ones more than to try something like that. :-? Smell the Roses............BrotherAL
brotheral
03-31-2008, 19:46
Typo: Friends, not Fiiends
Jaybird62
03-31-2008, 20:13
I value Life, My Family, Fiiends, & Loved ones more than to try something like that. :-? Smell the Roses............BrotherAL
Priorities.....I hear you man.....
I wouldn't be there. I don't see the point. Everest is the AT of big mountains. So many people have done it, there's no reason to do it unless you feel you have to prove something to yourself or someone else.
Not worth the risk.
fiddlehead
04-01-2008, 05:18
You guys miss my point. I'm not asking if you would do everest, but if you would set your priorities aside to help someone who is dying or not?
Obviously, we all would like to say that we would help him. But how many passed him that day and did not? (answer-EVERYBODY)
and the only one who really was very upset over it was the Lebanese guy it seemed.
And what thoughts do you think went thru the dying man's head when he watched men pass him by.
It's a sad story about humanity, aye?
NICKTHEGREEK
04-01-2008, 06:43
You guys miss my point. I'm not asking if you would do everest, but if you would set your priorities aside to help someone who is dying or not?
Obviously, we all would like to say that we would help him. But how many passed him that day and did not? (answer-EVERYBODY)
and the only one who really was very upset over it was the Lebanese guy it seemed.
And what thoughts do you think went thru the dying man's head when he watched men pass him by.
It's a sad story about humanity, aye?
Yes it is sad and even worse, sadder that so many people missed the point you were making. You don't need to go to Nepal to see complete disregard for human life and find people too caught up in themselves to stop and lend a hand to a person in need. I'd rate saving a person from death a far greater personal accomplishment than climbing Everest.
Yes it is sad and even worse, sadder that so many people missed the point you were making. You don't need to go to Nepal to see complete disregard for human life and find people too caught up in themselves to stop and lend a hand to a person in need. I'd rate saving a person from death a far greater personal accomplishment than climbing Everest.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
I remember watching that episode on TV. I couldn't believe they were all just standing around doing nothing but they did say it's impossible to make an attempt... Can't remember why they were saying that. I think it was too late in the day... which is all a moot point seeing as a ton of them passed right by him earlier and did nothing.
bloodmountainman
04-01-2008, 07:17
Tragic stories will continue as long as there is this Everest for hire nonsense! As Jon Krakauer pointed out in his book Into thin air, money has overcome skill and experience, in getting to the summit of Everest. Guides are under pressure to make sure their clients are sucessful. If you have thirty or forty thousand dollars invested in this endeavor, nothing else matters( not even the safty and well being of others!)
Clients and guides are guilty of putting themselves first and foremost.
I would like to see some standards for anyone attempting Everest, guided or not. How much cash one has is not it!
I don't know how to answer your question, but I have witnessed people driving by an accident when it was apparent that there were injuries. I stopped.
I don't think it's as much an unwillingness to show human compassion as much as it is that they just want to complete what they set out to do and then if someone else has not stopped by the time they return then they may stop and render aide.
Lone Wolf
04-01-2008, 07:28
You guys miss my point. I'm not asking if you would do everest, but if you would set your priorities aside to help someone who is dying or not?
Obviously, we all would like to say that we would help him. But how many passed him that day and did not? (answer-EVERYBODY)
and the only one who really was very upset over it was the Lebanese guy it seemed.
And what thoughts do you think went thru the dying man's head when he watched men pass him by.
It's a sad story about humanity, aye?
of course i woulda helped him but i'm not an anal ego maniac like most people who climb everest for bragging rights
Tragic stories will continue as long as there is this Everest for hire nonsense! As Jon Krakauer pointed out in his book Into thin air, money has overcome skill and experience, in getting to the summit of Everest. Guides are under pressure to make sure their clients are sucessful. If you have thirty or forty thousand dollars invested in this endeavor, nothing else matters( not even the safty and well being of others!)
Clients and guides are guilty of putting themselves first and foremost.
I would like to see some standards for anyone attempting Everest, guided or not. How much cash one has is not it!
You're on the right track. We can't forget that the guy put himself in that predicament... No sherpas or support? Stupid.
There should be shelters on Everest :rolleyes:
A sad and pathetic example of what climbing the world's tallest mountain has turned into. Here is another story about it. http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=10064
Evidently the world's most accomplished climbers believe rescue where Mr. Sharp was located was very possible, but were not surprised by the turn of events.
skinny minnie
04-01-2008, 09:01
Depressing. Really depressing.
I think if you are an experienced enough mountaineer - saving a life should be a priority over summiting. And if you are inexperienced - you have no business being up on that mountain, never mind rescuing someone other than yourself.
"(Discovery's planned six-part series is set to debut on November 14. The working title is Everest: No Experience Required.)"
I think it's pretty nauseating how people pour money into this - spending tens of thousands of dollars. Especially when Sherpa's make much less and put much more effort into it. I don't really respect people who have to pay others to risk their lives and carry their equipment.
Thoughtful Owl
04-01-2008, 09:02
You guys miss my point. I'm not asking if you would do everest, but if you would set your priorities aside to help someone who is dying or not?
Obviously, we all would like to say that we would help him. But how many passed him that day and did not? (answer-EVERYBODY)
and the only one who really was very upset over it was the Lebanese guy it seemed.
And what thoughts do you think went thru the dying man's head when he watched men pass him by.
It's a sad story about humanity, aye?
A sad story about humanity is right on target. IMO it seems as if many (not all, mind you, but many) people are only interested in personal gain. "What's in it for me." If nothing, then they will do nothing. Our society has become full of a bunch of "takers" and so few "givers".
Yep, sad commentary on humanity.
TO
brotheral
04-01-2008, 09:09
I value Life, My Family, Friends, & Loved ones more than to try something like that. :-? Smell the Roses............BrotherAL
I think, perhaps, you missed my point. I wouldn't put myself in that position...In a place where everyone is voluntarily "Trying not to die". One could lose his life being a good samaritan in the death zone on everest. Stopping at the scene of a motorcycle accident, to offer help, on the Blue Ridge Parkway is an entirely different matter....
"The first question which you will ask and which I must try to answer is this, 'What is the use of climbing Mount Everest ?' and my answer must at once be, 'It is no use'. There is not the slightest prospect of any gain whatsoever. Oh, we may learn a little about the behavior of the human body at high altitudes, and possibly medical men may turn our observation to some account for the purposes of aviation. But otherwise nothing will come of it. We shall not bring back a single bit of gold or silver, not a gem, nor any coal or iron. We shall not find a single foot of earth that can be planted with crops to raise food. It's no use. So, if you cannot understand that there is something in man which responds to the challenge of this mountain and goes out to meet it, that the struggle is the struggle of life itself upward and forever upward, then you won't see why we go. What we get from this adventure is just sheer joy. And joy is, after all, the end of life. We do not live to eat and make money. We eat and make money to be able to enjoy life. That is what life means and what life is for."George Leigh Mallory, 1922
Jaybird62
04-01-2008, 11:50
Wow, I don't know how you could just walk by someone dying like that. I guess they all had ways of justifying it in their minds, I don't see how people could do that. Ego's can surely be a dangerous thing.
leeki pole
04-01-2008, 12:02
I think, perhaps, you missed my point. I wouldn't put myself in that position...In a place where everyone is voluntarily "Trying not to die". One could lose his life being a good samaritan in the death zone on everest. Stopping at the scene of a motorcycle accident, to offer help, on the Blue Ridge Parkway is an entirely different matter....
Well if you really care about the ones you love, what in the world are you doing on Everest anyway? Everest is a selfish goal, and although it's disgusting and reprehensible behavior to pass up a person in mortal danger, it doesn't surprise me in the least. I didn't miss your point at all.
Very sad, but oh so true.
brotheral
04-01-2008, 14:10
Well if you really care about the ones you love, what in the world are you doing on Everest anyway? Everest is a selfish goal, and although it's disgusting and reprehensible behavior to pass up a person in mortal danger, it doesn't surprise me in the least. I didn't miss your point at all.
Very sad, but oh so true.
I guess decisions like that are inherent in the Everest Experience. Their values and priorities are much different than mine. I guess it's a "Live and let live" thing...... A good day in the woods and a creekside campsite...I'm one happy camper...:banana
I watched the documentary, and Brice clearly stated that it was too late. They could not have saved the guy. I believe him. He seems credible. Brice runs a good expedition. Not all his clients summit, because he turns them around, before they reach the point of no return. Sharp, was on his own, he made his choice, and unfortunantly he paid the price.
Climbing Everest is risky, the ill prepared die, if they don't turn around when its appropriate.
I don't know, sounded like a lot of people were having a bad day. Evidently its hard to get a body off that mountain, "Greenboots" has been up there since 1996.
It was a long read.
Here's the last bit of the article....Sharp's mother said she didn't blame Brice or any of the climbers for David's death. "Your responsibility is to save yourself," she told the London Sunday Times, "not to try to save any body else."
Among the belongings found in Sharp's tent was a plastic bag containing his passport and wallet. Phurba Tashi looked at the photo on the passport. Yes, that was him. Inside the wallet they also discovered an undisclosed amount of money, more than they might have expected for a modest mathematician. Travel (http://climb.mountainzone.com/2006/david_sharp/index.html#) money to ensure safe passage home. More than enough to have hired a Sherpa, or even a guide.
fiddlehead
04-01-2008, 16:25
Here's how i look at it: I think people that climb Everest, first of all, can afford it.
I think it averages out around $60,000. and my thoughts are that people who have that kind of money to throw away on their ego and bragging rights, are the kind of people who WOULD pass you up if you are in an accident and lay dying WHEREVER it is.
Most long distance hikers (IMO of course) are poorer than this, have less of an ego, and so, WOULD stop to help.
I think it's hard to put yourself in other's shoes sometimes. Especially if you are in a hurry, have your goal in sight and are focused on completing it.
And what does it mean that the Lebanese guy was the only one that was SO upset?
I'd like to meet him and ask him what he thought of the day.
That being said, i remember a time when i saw a lady who was driving in fog, and rear ended a parked car along the shoulder of the interstate. Her head smashed the windshield but she was out trying to flag cars down and no one stopped. I stopped and took her to a hospital (before cell phones) and she told me she had been trying to flag down cars for more than 10 minutes (her face was bloody)
brotheral
04-01-2008, 16:38
Poorer or Wealthier, Fiddlehead :-? ?!?! I've seen what "too much" money can do........
climbabout
04-02-2008, 08:10
All guides and mountaineers are not as selfish and focused on summiting as many believe. Here's a link to an interesting story, that didn't get a lot of press - probably because it had a happy ending. I've climbed with 2 of the rescuers - Dave Hahn and Casey Grom on Rainier and Mckinley - in fact, I was with Dave Hahn on Mckinley last summer, right after this happened and heard firsthand his account of the story. You won't find a more compassionate caring and competent guide. He's been involved in countless rescues.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1837807.ece
Tim
skinny minnie
04-02-2008, 08:43
I watched the documentary, and Brice clearly stated that it was too late. They could not have saved the guy. I believe him. He seems credible. Brice runs a good expedition. Not all his clients summit, because he turns them around, before they reach the point of no return. Sharp, was on his own, he made his choice, and unfortunantly he paid the price.
Climbing Everest is risky, the ill prepared die, if they don't turn around when its appropriate.
So just because he didn't pay to have help, he didn't deserve it when he needs it? Brice may seem credible... but you are now taking someone at face value, when other reports clearly show that this man needed help and was disregarded.
" Then, amid the escalating problems, Brice heard from a guide, Shaun Hutson, who had been stuck in a bottleneck of climbers at the Second Step but was now asking for permission to tag the summit."
He gave a guide permission to go up there and summit. While all this was happening.
"Well," Brice tells Men's Journal when asked about the decision to let Hutson peel away. "Shaun's quite a fit mountain guide. If I feel like I've got the support I need at the time, and I can send a guide up to the top, hopefully he'll work for us more in the future. And he was there to help people down at the end."
So he felt comfortable with what his group was doing, felt like he had the support he needed... and decided to make a guide happy, but disregarded the person losing his life practically right in the path of that guide.
And thanks for the other story Tim. Shows that despite the risks to themselves people do attempt to help others.
Whenever I hear the story of David Sharp, I'm reminded of an strange moment from a video podcast I follow:
http://therestofeverest.com
Jon Miller is a filmmaker who was at Everest basecamp in Tibet back in 2004, I believe. In one episode, David Sharp is seen passing through the frame in the distance. I believe he even waves to the camera. The video podcast was posted through 2006 and 2007, I believe, so the story of David Sharp's death was still very fresh. Jon was acquainted with David Sharp, having lived at base camp with all the teams attempting the northern summit route. Jon said it was fitting that David passed through that frame silently. It's just a second or two, but it was a very poignant moment for me, because in that moment on the screen, we can see David happy and alive on Everest just a year or two before his death.
David Sharp knew what the risks were. He had been to Everest before 2006. Everest rescues are very rare. I believe it wasn't possible to rescue him. I believe most of the people who passed him by understood that, too. The stories about Everest and those who climb the mountain are very compelling. Why do people do it? I don't know. But I am drawn to the stories.
I highly recommend the podcast I've linked above. Start at the beginning and follow one team's adventure. The photography is beautiful. There's a good deal of footage just getting to base camp. The narration really helps the viewer understand something of the mindset the people drawn to Everest. Later episodes were shot on a return trip last year, and there are some wonderful episodes that were shot in the then-relatively-peaceful Lhasa, which has recently been so much in the news.
It's not possible to save someone that is up that high. It's hard enough for YOU alone to just take step after step....trying to help another person down from that high is impossible.
If any of you actually knew anything about Everest and high altitude you wouldn't be making the same comments. It's easy to pass judgement and say Oh thats terrible, they should have saved that guy...little do you know it's pretty much impossible.
On the Discovery Channel series of Everest, The leader of the expedition, Russell Brice?, talkes repeatedly about how he has organized rescues of countless numbers of climbers out of the goodness of his heart... BUT when he has done so, the climbers were not nearly as high plus it took 8+ just to carry one guy down.
Also, I agree that there are a lot of rich people that shouldn't be on Everest. They go b/c they have the money to do it....But look, if it's somebody's dream, let it go...It's there business not yours.
fiddlehead
04-03-2008, 20:06
If any of you actually knew anything about Everest and high altitude you wouldn't be making the same comments. It's easy to pass judgement and say Oh thats terrible, they should have saved that guy...little do you know it's pretty much impossible.
Tell that to Beck Weathers.
Jaybird62
04-03-2008, 20:14
[quote=mts4602;585207]
If any of you actually knew anything about Everest and high altitude you wouldn't be making the same comments. It's easy to pass judgement and say Oh thats terrible, they should have saved that guy...little do you know it's pretty much impossible.
If you have never read The Climb by Anatol Boukreev you should check it out sometime......
sherrill
04-03-2008, 20:51
Tell that to Beck Weathers.
According to Krakauer even Beck admitted he was lucky and should have died.
It's not possible to save someone that is up that high. It's hard enough for YOU alone to just take step after step....trying to help another person down from that high is impossible.
If any of you actually knew anything about Everest and high altitude you wouldn't be making the same comments. It's easy to pass judgement and say Oh thats terrible, they should have saved that guy...little do you know it's pretty much impossible.
On the Discovery Channel series of Everest, The leader of the expedition, Russell Brice?, talkes repeatedly about how he has organized rescues of countless numbers of climbers out of the goodness of his heart... BUT when he has done so, the climbers were not nearly as high plus it took 8+ just to carry one guy down.
Also, I agree that there are a lot of rich people that shouldn't be on Everest. They go b/c they have the money to do it....But look, if it's somebody's dream, let it go...It's there business not yours.Actually it is possible and has been done. Impossible is just plain inaccurate. Did you read this link carefully?:http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=10064
Look, I'm not trying to armchair this, but it seems to me that rescue efforts took a back seat to summit attempts. Maybe the current M.O. on the mountain is to blame. Maybe there were too many novice climbers to do a thing about it. I don't know. I do know that World Class climbers were very disturbed by this, and I tend to agree with them.
Pokey2006
04-04-2008, 01:50
What you would do at sea level is A LOT different than what you would do at 20,000-something feet. You can sit here and say you'd rescue someone, you wouldn't walk past a dying man, etc., etc., but at that elevation, in that extreme cold, well, who knows? Altitude does funny things to a person.
slowandlow
04-04-2008, 11:29
While it is very unfortunate that this man and others died on Everest, I believe that all Everest climbers on unguided expeditions know going in that the unspoken rule is every man for himself, and that rescue in time of trouble is uncertain and probably unlikely.
t's not possible to save someone that is up that high. It's hard enough for YOU alone to just take step after step....trying to help another person down from that high is impossible.agree...........The documentary said, a person in the death zone is consuming over 5,000 calories per day just breathing. On summit day they consume over 15,000 calories. There body are literally consuming itself. They have to get up and out of the death zone quickly, or they die. A lone climber is taking a huge risk, because no one finds out he is in trouble until it is too late. Nobody would have known the guy was in trouble until he laid down. Once you lay down in the death zone it is too late.
Wise Old Owl
04-04-2008, 14:13
You guys miss my point. I'm not asking if you would do everest, but if you would set your priorities aside to help someone who is dying or not?
Obviously, we all would like to say that we would help him. But how many passed him that day and did not? (answer-EVERYBODY)
and the only one who really was very upset over it was the Lebanese guy it seemed.
And what thoughts do you think went thru the dying man's head when he watched men pass him by.
It's a sad story about humanity, aye?
I watched this first hand in the National Geographic "Everest" series. In the death zone you barley have enough strength to keep yourself alive - even if 6 people were to stretcher you out, all six might die. Everest is littered with freeze dried Bodies. Trash, Oxygen bottles, blue bags, tents and very sick people. During the movie a French team left one of their own to die in front of film crew Sherpa team. There wasn't much anyone can do at that high altitude. The series pointed out the sheer stupidity of just going there. It's really a shame - the loss of life, even if they did get someone off the mountain that is in that bad of shape, they are too far from any civilized hospital to treat the exposure.
I hope I do not offend anyone with the above statement, I would be first in line to help others on the trail. I do understand. Unfortunatly it is human nature to stand around and do nothing while someone is dying. I have seen it first hand.
NorthCountryWoods
04-04-2008, 16:22
Depressing. Really depressing.
I think if you are an experienced enough mountaineer - saving a life should be a priority over summiting. And if you are inexperienced - you have no business being up on that mountain, never mind rescuing someone other than yourself.
Not excusing anything, but if you're an experienced enough mountaineer -
1- you will have witnessed death at altitude on a regular basis.
2- you know that your life, time and energy is finite up there.
3- your brain is working on very little oxygen.
NICKTHEGREEK
04-04-2008, 19:13
Here's how i look at it: I think people that climb Everest, first of all, can afford it.
I think it averages out around $60,000. and my thoughts are that people who have that kind of money to throw away on their ego and bragging rights, are the kind of people who WOULD pass you up if you are in an accident and lay dying WHEREVER it is.
Most long distance hikers (IMO of course) are poorer than this, have less of an ego, and so, WOULD stop to help.
I think it's hard to put yourself in other's shoes sometimes. Especially if you are in a hurry, have your goal in sight and are focused on completing it.
And what does it mean that the Lebanese guy was the only one that was SO upset?
I'd like to meet him and ask him what he thought of the day.
That being said, i remember a time when i saw a lady who was driving in fog, and rear ended a parked car along the shoulder of the interstate. Her head smashed the windshield but she was out trying to flag cars down and no one stopped. I stopped and took her to a hospital (before cell phones) and she told me she had been trying to flag down cars for more than 10 minutes (her face was bloody)
Keep in mind that $60K to summit Everest may seem extreme to someone who make a few bucks an hour. The extremely poor who make $50.00 a year, think that people who have $5,000 to throw away on their ego and bragging rights on the AT, are the kind of people who WOULD pass you up if you are in an accident and lay dying WHEREVER it is.
Everything is relative, some folks make $60K in a good day, some never see that in a lifetime. Capacity to earn has nothing to do with morality.
fiddlehead
04-04-2008, 22:38
I disagree. I think capacity to earn turns people into thinking (believing?) they are better than others.
I have seen this first hand in 3rd world countries. I've seen and heard (on 2 occasions off the top of my head) 2 fellow travelers calling the locals "maggots". (I don't travel with those 2 anymore)
I could tell you lots of similar stories but of course I am generalizing here.
Not everyone is like that.
I am a firm believer in equality for all.
But then, if i'd been born rich, maybe i would feel differently, who knows?
There are a lot of good people in the world. both rich and poor. It just so happens i've seen a lot more of the poorer ones being the compassionate ones. (not saying the Lebanese guy was poor cause he was up there too)
Just saying that a lot of people made their goal top priority that day. Maybe they were right. I wasn't there of course. But I'd like to believe that if something similar happened in the hiking world, my peers would behave differently. I hope so.