Pigs In The Citico/Slickrock

[Tipi Walter]

Six Days With The Shoats
May 12-13-14-15-16-17 2008

DAY ONE
The ultralighters will be glad to know that I've taken their advice and lightened my packweight by 20 pounds so I'll be moving much faster and further. My pack checks in at around 65 pounds, considerably lighter than the usual 80 or 85 pounds I've carried on my most recent trips. It feels so light now that I positively fly up the mountains and skip along the trail. The pack is lighter but a funny thing is that I'm still carrying all the usual gear except a much lighter food load so by the end of this short 6 day trip my pack will hover around 40-45 pounds, almost a daypack weight.

IT IS COLD, FOGGY AND WINDY
On my last trip I ran into snow and cold and wind and so this is a continuance of those conditions, conditions that make the ultralight types turn back and call for help, but for me it's the best time to be out. A 65 pound pack will hold everything anyone could need for a week long trip and a 65 pound pack can be easily carried by nearly any adult. If I can enthusiastically do it at age 58 with a skinny body and few muscles, anyone can.

The ultralight girlie-men disagree but they are a peculiar lot given to trail moodiness, fickle trip committment and fearful attitudes concerning pack weight and physical comfort. Except for home-bound couch potatoes and teen-aged girls, I've never seen a group so reluctant to experience physical discomfort as the UL crowd.

WEIGHT IS FREEDOM
The more weight a person carries(within reason), the more comfortable and the longer that person can stay out, thereby avoiding syphilization with all its humanity, cars, foul air, sour water, trash food, sprawl and all the rest. The obsession with miles has fed this UL fever, a hot sweaty glazed over compulsion to use only the lightest possible gear no matter its cost or its short-term longevity, and the inane desire to make all others do the same. So, backpacking has become a testosterone-fed extreme sport peopled by long-distance running types and epitomized by the triple-crowners and the speed fanatics on the one hand and the confused newbs who parrot the UL party line on the other.

WHY DO I HARP?
Why do I harp on the ULers? Because the UL philosophy is permeating all of backpacking in a negative way, making newbies and experts alike engage in a PC exercise of gram counting and one-upmanship, thinking it's scientific and cutting edge. The poor newbies under pressure from the "seasoned UL veterans", must therefore buy lite, think lite, act lite, hike lite or be judged as inexperienced fools by their misguided ego-driven UL mentors and peers.

It's the same old song, the same old testosterone alpha dog strut, counting grams and using flimsy gossamer gear, thinking such choices put them at the top of some mythical higher-heap, but when they get hit by their first real storm, wind or blizzard, or the first opportunity to do a long 2 week trip, they run home and wait it out, picking and choosing their trips dictated by the gear they carry. This picking and choosing is a loss of freedom, but the backpackers of old went out in all conditions and used every bit of their 50-65 pound loads, and they were freer.

PIGS
On the way in from Beech Gap I scared 5 pigs rooting in the trail and took a quick foto before they ran off. Ya gotta love the wild pigs.

ANOTHER BATCH OF PIGS
Right near the Bob Bald I scared up 7 little tiny pigs and they ran back and forth like baby grouse. Ya gotta love the goofy things!

RESTSTOP ATOP THE BOB
No pigs here, just a cold wind and fast moving gray clouds.

NAKED GROUND RESTSTOP
The hike from the Bob to here is great, everyone should do it, heck, this whole Four Mile Ridge is worth backpacking.

WATAUGA CAMP
Camp is set up and I cooked a quick meal of brown rice, tofu and broccoli and around dusk went down to the gap where I saw a Seedhouse tent occupied by 2 backpackers named Lauren and Wes from Seattle.

SAYING GOODNIGHT TO DAY 1
Cold comes to the high ground in mid-May as a bright half moon lights up the black sky. My big dome tent is home again as I snuggle under fine goose down atop a thick thermarest. Miss Nature has been active this week with floods, hurricanes, earthquakes and tornados, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of humans.

DAY TWO
The wind stopped in a star-studded cold black sky.

RESTING AT HAOE PEAK
A quick climb with a light 60 pound pack got me up to Haoe where I'll sit and wait for the Seattle backpackers. My goal today is to reach Slickrock Creek where I'll set up camp somewhere by water.

I walked Wes and Lauren to the Hangover and while passing Airjet Camp I run into two backpacking brothers from Knoxville, Bobby and Brad. I hang with the brothers a bit, talking about east TN backpacking and all things nylon. They too are headed down the South Lead trail and we just may share the trail today.

At Elysium Fields I took a break and Bobby passed by and gifted me a pack of Primal Strips meatless jerky and a pak of Tofurky. Bobby and Brad are very friendly guys and I'll miss them.

DOWN ON THE SLICKROCK
I finally reached the creek and crossed to arrive at Johnny's Camp in the Slicnic area. The lodge is set up and the food eaten. Now at dusk it is time to brush the teeth and lay back to read and write. The water sound is loud here and holy. MORE TO COME

Fotogs:
At the start of the trip near Beech Gap
The pigs of the Citico
Lauren and Wes at Naked Ground
Meal time at 5000 feet
Bobby and Brad on the South Lead trail

[Tipi Walter]

SIX DAYS WITH THE SHOATS
May 12-13-14-15-16-17 2008

DAY THREE
The full light of day gets me up so I went down to the creek for a pot of water and now sit in the tent brewing up nettle and mint tea while looking at the sky for possible rain. My goal today is to climb out of this valley and find a place to hunker down for the upcoming rainstorm.

DAY OF THE SNAKE
I left the Slickrock valley and started my climb on the Big Stack trail and sit resting after the 5 switchbacks taking me to the rockcrop overlook and the beginning of the ridge spine hump. My soon destination will be the BMT at Crowders where I'll see if it's going to rain or not. On the way up I stepped over a large black snake(or king snake)stretched along the trail so I took several fotogs and hung out with it for awhile, playing with it with my hiking stick. I got it to coil up and strike the rubber handle of the stick but it really wasn't pissed, just brave. Shunka and I talked to it for a while and then we let it be, saying goodbye and headng up the trail. In 1.8 miles I'm climbing 1500 feet, a good workout for the brainstem and worldwiew of this pumping nylon bum. Uh oh, here comes the rain so I'm off!

THIRD BATCH OF PIGS
Near the top of Fodderstack ridge I scared up another group of pigs, about 8 this time, and consisting of young adults and some goofy looking babies, all ears and squinty eyes. Near the top I stepped off the trail to get some water and slipped off the bank and fell backwards onto the lower opposite bank, my pack taking the full force of the fall. No broken tent poles, no snapped fuel pump, so all's well, just a scrapped left arm and a muddy pack cover. If a backpacker says he backpacks but has never fallen, well, he's never backpacked and is lying.

OVERNIGHT AT CROWDER CAMP
Sitting on the BMT produces one question: Why is it always empty? To me it's still the remote and solitary Fodderstack trail in the Citico wilderness, not the brother to the AT coming up from Springer. If I ever see a backpacker passing by on it I'll let you know.

ALMOST MIDNIGHT
A light rain hits the lodgeskins and the fun begins. I just hope to get thru tomorrow with a hike out of here spaced somewhere between rains--maybe to Glenn Gap or Snow Camp for a Bob summit bid by Friday.

DAY FOUR
Whatever rain has come has stopped but at 3:30 am I'm not packing up though by a clear 8 am I'll be on the trail. All I need is a rain-free 30 minutes to pack up and move out.

THE STINK OF EAST TENNESSEE
For some reason a thick soup of polluted foul air came over camp yesterday and filled the Citico with its stink and has hung around thru the night and into today. It smells like a combination forest fire with melted plastic like milk jugs thrown in for good measure. I'd say the coal plants are working overtime but no one cares and the blight continues. Like a busted Chernobyl, these plants keep spewing out poison gas for all to breathe, but the inhalers are also the guilty ones cuz we use the coal's electricity to light our homes and fuel our computers. I'm as guilty as anyone except when I'm out backpacking or living down at my Chickasaw Creek tent or during the 21 years I stayed out at my NC tipi.

But since moving to Little Mitten's in 2001, I've joined the ranks of the polluting guilty like all the rest, the electrically-addicted, and so have no room to judge. At least I spent a good portion of my life off the godforsaken grid. Now? Fergit about it.

WE ARE AN INFANT SOCIETY
Infants soil themselves repeatedly with stool and feces, they are helpless to do anything about it. So too is our modern society, soiling itself in a million ways with its own waste and stool, like one giant infant without a diaper and no parent around to clean up the mess. We are mere infants, ignorant, short-sighted, emotional, screaming infants, and the world has become our diaper.

8 AM HITS CROWDERS
Even though a light rain hits camp, it's time to get up and get moving. Thankfully, a long gestating turtlehead emerged minutes ago which is cause for celebration so I handed out a cigar to Shunka-dog and we both looked in on the dirt nursery as the fresh-born Turd lay in repose. Another birthday, another funeral, it's all the same story in the annals and lifestyle of the emerging turtlehead.

ON THE FODDERSTACK/BMT
I got an early start leaving Crowders and climbed up a short hill to descend down to Mill Gap where the first big hill of the day began up to the high shoulder of Big Fodderstack Mt. Here I dropped to Harrison Gap and began the second big climb up and around the Rockstack Mt to quietly descend to Glenn Gap where I depacked and got water down at the high spring. Breakfast is a Clif bar with water and then I'm off to the top of Chestnut Knob and past Cherry Log Gap to Snow Camp. Clouds all day but so far no real rain.

OVERNIGHT AT SNOW CAMP
From Glenn Gap to Snow Camp is a fairly quick but uphill affair and by the time I reached Snow Camp I was ready to set up and rest. Rain alert: After setting up camp and cooking lunch a fast falling rain hits the B Mac/Fodderstack and with it comes a pleasant wind blowing thru the hemlock treetops here atop this high ridge. I'm at the start of Four Mile Ridge and the high country and perched at around 4500 feet and about 700 feet below the Bob where I'll be heading tomorrow.

WATER RUN
In a light rain I hoofed it down to Snow Camp spring and grabbed a liter of water and streaked back to camp to plop into the tent where I sit listening to the pitter-patter of the falling drops. I'm thinking of the poor people in China who this week went from living a regular indoor life to losing everything and living in tents. I hope every county seat in America has a huge supply of tents stored cuz you never know when our turn will come to see everything topple in a quake. But living in tents will be the easy part, losing friends and family will be the toughest part.

DAY 4 COMES TO AN END
For most people this would be a dreary dark dank night in a cold rain, but for me it is the Raven's Yard, that special place where a human sits and sleeps with all senses on high alert, but still hypnotized by nature's lullaby. What makes a Raven's Yard possible? A good dry warm tent or a secure and dry hammock or a stable tarp held tight to the wind or a tipi in a blizzard. The Raven's Yard is any place a human stays dry in a storm using a primitive portable shelter. And when the crows come barking or the ravens come calling, you know you've found the center of the universe and the best place for you to be at that moment.

NEAR MIDNIGHT
The wind whips up and the rain is relentless, the usual maelstrom when caught on the high ground. By morning in 8 hours I hope to see some opportunity to get out if for no other reason than to filter some drinking water. I try to sleep but I'm slept out, too many hours already spent in slumber and now I'm restless to pack and move up the trail. MORE FOLLOWS

Fotogs:
Big old snake on the trail
My snake brother saying hello
All set up at Crowder Camp
All set up at Snow Camp
A water run in the rain

[Tipi Walter]

SIX DAYS WITH THE SHOATS
May 12-13-14-15-16-17 2008

DAY FIVE
I'm up at 6 am and see that the full brunt of the storm has arrived with continued rainfall and a new participant, a howling area-wide wind. The old wind flew by here and sounded close, the new wind is a constant distant roar in the trees along this ridge and up on the Bob shoulder. I'm about ready to don the raingear and go for water as I'm plum out. Gotta make my morning tea.

The short walk to the spring and back is finished and I sit warm and dry in my Hilleberg dome drinking hot nettle tea with granola. This day promises to be one of cloudy hiking but probably not in the rain and since I'm only moving 1.5 miles and 700 feet up, it'll be slow going but short. So far on this trip I've only seen 4 backpackers in 2 groups and even though today is Friday I doubt if I'll see anyone else as the weather will keep away most of them.

The skies are dark, cloudy and mean, the rain is perturbing, the wind is problematic and the cool temps harzardous so you know for certain the dayhikers will stay home.

UP TO BOB BALD
I packed a thoroughly wet tent and left the BMT at Snow Camp and humped up the steep Bob shoulder to the tee where I turned left and reached the foggy, windy and cold open meadow of Sir Robert at the grassy campsite I call Raven's Rock. I immediately called Little Mitten and then set up a quick tent to get out of the wind and continued rain. I cooked up a toasted muffin just about the time a sideways rain hit the tentsite and just about the time Shunka barked and 4 backpackers passed by to dump their packs down by the Akto Camp and disappear, leaving their packs sitting out in the wet meadow. I'll investigate later.

This will be my last night out with tomorrow's goal to be packed and out of here early so I can get to Tellico for some early Saturday business. A late dinner of 2 scrambled eggs with another toasted muffin pretty much finishes my desire to eat anymore today. What's miserable is the cold temps and sleety rain whipping across the bald, cold enough to require wearing full layers and staying under my sleeping bag as I write this.

Dusk is upon me and my dog and I sit in a completely zipped up tent feeling the cold air penetrate and listening to the slight velcro sound of the rain slicing across the tent. Tomorrow I will stay in all layers except the fleece top and leave camp covered in all rain gear and warm hat. And why not? I can change out if I get hot. Here comes another batch of pesky rain but I'm on the Bob where Mother Nature likes to trick and treat.

DAY SIX
The final day of Trip 77 comes with fog, cold, wind and a heavy mist coating everything. Welcome to the Bob. As soon as some light reaches this high meadow I'll start packing up and pumping nylon off the mountain to the tee, to Cold Spring Gap and up and out to Beech Gap.

4 AM
The usual condensation coats a zipped up tent so I open both doors and air out the dome. In a couple of hours I hope to be on the trail south by southwest but it's too early to go to the South Col camp for look-sees and goodbyes. The rain stopped hours ago but not the fog and it's still cold enough to leave in full layers. I broke another lexan spoon on this trip so I'm glad I brought an extra, the things are fragile but useful with teflon pans.

MY STANDARD LOAD
On this spring trip I brought a few items necessary only in cold weather and I'm glad I did. Gloves, thick watch cap, the Icebreaker tops and the thick Arcteryx fleece, the winter Western Mountaineering bag and the thick heavy thermarest, all helped me to stay comfy at 5300 feet even in mid-May and at the start of summer. The full set of rain gear is also worth carrying and I always bring it with me year round. The extra fuel bottle I did not use and hardly ever do, but having it comes in handy when cooking or boiling water when the temps plummet.

I left the mountain and fell down to the Cold Gap and up and over to Beech where I packed up the car and left the highland playground of the Citico/Slickrock. So ends another fine backpacking trip.

Fotogs:
Leaving Bob Bald
On the trail to Beech Gap and out

[generoll]

nice trip, Walter. Is the water running now on the Bald?

[Tipi Walter]

nice trip, Walter. Is the water running now on the Bald?

Water is plentiful everywhere on or near the Bob. It's aflowin'!!

[4eyedbuzzard]

Six Days With The Shoats
May 12-13-14-15-16-17 2008

DAY ONE
The ultralighters will be glad to know that I've taken their advice and lightened my packweight by 20 pounds so I'll be moving much faster and further.

My pack checks in at around 65 pounds, considerably lighter than the usual 80 or 85 pounds I've carried on my most recent trips. It feels so light now that I positively fly up the mountains and skip along the trail. The pack is lighter but a funny thing is that I'm still carrying all the usual gear except a much lighter food load so by the end of this short 6 day trip my pack will hover around 40-45 pounds, almost a daypack weight.

IT IS COLD, FOGGY AND WINDY
On my last trip I ran into snow and cold and wind and so this is a continuance of those conditions, conditions that make the ultralight types turn back and call for help, but for me it's the best time to be out. A 65 pound pack will hold everything anyone could need for a week long trip and a 65 pound pack can be easily carried by nearly any adult. If I can enthusiastically do it at age 58 with a skinny body and few muscles, anyone can.

The ultralight girlie-men disagree but they are a peculiar lot given to trail moodiness, fickle trip committment and fearful attitudes concerning pack weight and physical comfort. Except for home-bound couch potatoes and teen-aged girls, I've never seen a group so reluctant to experience physical discomfort as the UL crowd.

WEIGHT IS FREEDOM
The more weight a person carries(within reason), the more comfortable and the longer that person can stay out, thereby avoiding syphilization with all its humanity, cars, foul air, sour water, trash food, sprawl and all the rest. The obsession with miles has fed this UL fever, a hot sweaty glazed over compulsion to use only the lightest possible gear no matter its cost or its short-term longevity, and the inane desire to make all others do the same. So, backpacking has become a testosterone-fed extreme sport peopled by long-distance running types and epitomized by the triple-crowners and the speed fanatics on the one hand and the confused newbs who parrot the UL party line on the other.

WHY DO I HARP?
Why do I harp on the ULers? Because the UL philosophy is permeating all of backpacking in a negative way, making newbies and experts alike engage in a PC exercise of gram counting and one-upmanship, thinking it's scientific and cutting edge. The poor newbies under pressure from the "seasoned UL veterans", must therefore buy lite, think lite, act lite, hike lite or be judged as inexperienced fools by their misguided ego-driven UL mentors and peers.

It's the same old song, the same old testosterone alpha dog strut, counting grams and using flimsy gossamer gear, thinking such choices put them at the top of some mythical higher-heap, but when they get hit by their first real storm, wind or blizzard, or the first opportunity to do a long 2 week trip, they run home and wait it out, picking and choosing their trips dictated by the gear they carry. This picking and choosing is a loss of freedom, but the backpackers of old went out in all conditions and used every bit of their 50-65 pound loads, and they were freer...

First, nice pics and trip report. And I agree that to some degree you gain a bit of logistical freedom if you're willing to carry more weight. But it's simply a matter of degree, not an absolute. You're still going to have to "come up for air"(resupply) sometime.

And... Hmm, I'm hardly an UL fanatic, although I do see their point and think the philosophy useful to apply in many areas. There has always been a weight vs comfort tradeoff in backpacking, even 40 years ago. But I honestly never remember carrying more than 40-45 lbs except once on a winter hike in the Whites years ago with what could only be described as expedition gear and again many years ago on a 10 day fishing/hiking trip in Montana. Thoughout the decades backpacking has been a recreational pastime, nobody has been ever been looking to carry more weight without good reason. Even back 40 - 50 years ago we always wanted lighter gear, and the manufacturers progressively answered over the years.

If I got rid of 20 lbs I would be left with roughly food and water on summer hikes. Granted this is fairly up to date summer weight gear, , 2 lb. 40 F bag(my rating), tarp and bug screen - no tent, but it does include an inflatable full length BA pad, camp chair, change of undies/t-shirt, base layering, fleece, shell, Jetboil, larger lightweight combo frypan/pot(used over fires as well), pretty good 1st aid/survival kit, etc. I don't carry a bombproof mountaineering tent because I simply don't need it. There are other shelter options where I hike that are better choices in weather that severe. But even if I did exchange the tarp and carry a sturdy 6 lb tent and added in my 3 lb 10F bag and another layer of clothing and more fuel, I'd still be under 30 lbs base, and pretty near able to sit out most weather conditions if needed. The big variable is the "if needed" one, and I just don't need to. Usually severe life threatening weather involves high winds, low temperatures and precipitation, and a good reason to get under a more substantial shelter. I simply don't need to roll the dice with a blizzard, blowdown, falling branches, or ice. If I know it's coming, and given todays technology, I probably will, there are always safer options than a tent - especially on the AT and other developed trails. If conditions look like they're going to get that bad, I'm bailing out. I'm out here for a nice hike, a good camp, and some fun. I'm not trying to prove anything to myself or anybody else.

Now, I've got a bit of a medical spinal problem in relation to carrying a 65 lb pack - like I'd probably re-injure my back taking it out of the trunk, so that's out of the question even if I were so inclined. I'd even venture that most adult men cannot comfortably and honestly safely carry a 65 lb pack for long distances. We're hikers, not sherpas, stonemasons, or expedition members. Carrying that size load brings more skeletal/muscle injury into play as it affect both load, balance, etc. That you choose to carry this weight appears to be your unique personal challenge. Kudos to you. But honestly, your viewpoint on all this is just as much a testosterone strut as the ultralighters - just in a different direction. Some challenge themselves with speed, others with low weight, others with stealthing, etc. One is no "better" than the other. You should rest assured though that yours is more unique in this day and age and take solace in that.

There is a balance to be struck between light weight and safety, preparedness, freedom, comfort, convenience, etc. I think there is a good compromise to be found somewhere between a 5 lb base weight and a 65 lb+ expedition load. If all this makes me and others "girlie-men", so be it - but I still ain't getting one of those man-skirts! :eek: ;)

[dessertrat]

Hey Tipi, I don't care how much weight you carry-- that's entirely up to you, of course. But do you have a gear list that you would be willing to share? I have a hard time imagining what you are carrying that weighs so much!

Please note: Despite my recent titanium purchase (the first of my life), I still usually carry between 30 and 40 pounds in the pack, including food and water (not counting what I'm wearing or what is in my pockets--I have never really found it worth counting), and find that acceptable and comfortable for three season hiking over a week.

Is most of your extra load food? Is it really so much trouble to come in once a week for food? Or does it ruin the vibe?

Also, if you can get (and can comfortably afford) a lighter equivalent (such as a ti pot instead of stainless), isn't that better to be lighter but have the same function? I don't see that as "one upmanship", I see that as smart.

[doggiebag]

SIX DAYS WITH THE SHOATS
... I scared up another group of pigs, about 8 this time, and consisting of young adults and some goofy looking babies, all ears and squinty eyes.


Sounds like me accidentally walking in the wrong row house in South Baltimore. :D

[bloodmountainman]

I have been studying the Joyce-Kilmer/ Citico wilderness trails and would like to get up there sometime this year. How is the trout fishing in Silck-Rock Creek? Any other stream recommendation?:confused:

[Tipi Walter]

Hey Tipi, I don't care how much weight you carry-- that's entirely up to you, of course. But do you have a gear list that you would be willing to share? I have a hard time imagining what you are carrying that weighs so much!

Please note: Despite my recent titanium purchase (the first of my life), I still usually carry between 30 and 40 pounds in the pack, including food and water (not counting what I'm wearing or what is in my pockets--I have never really found it worth counting), and find that acceptable and comfortable for three season hiking over a week.

Is most of your extra load food? Is it really so much trouble to come in once a week for food? Or does it ruin the vibe?

Also, if you can get (and can comfortably afford) a lighter equivalent (such as a ti pot instead of stainless), isn't that better to be lighter but have the same function? I don't see that as "one upmanship", I see that as smart.

It's very difficult to find a decent 4 season tent nowadays that one person can carry and a tent that does not have unsealable mesh nettng. I settled on a spacious dome tent that weighs in at 8 pounds at 36 sq feet, almost the perfect tent for where I go and what conditions I face. The pack I use also weighs 8 pounds empty, so right there I'm looking at 16 pounds for just two items. Add a beefy winter thermarest and a minus 10 degree goose down bag and we're looking at a fulsome foursome of high ounces, all suitable to me.

My weight also comes from the books I like to carry and the extra food/fuel that is usually leftover after each trip. I always end up with too much food, at least 3 days worth, and hardly ever dip into my second stash of white gas fuel.

My combative harping comes from seeing a group of backpackers trying to go lighter and lighter while at the same time trying to convert others in a near-religious frenzy to go lighter. What then is the ultimate goal of such lightweight backpackers and their gear, to wear a buttpack and jog along the trail? To only go out when the weather is benign? To never carry 10 or 15 days worth of food? To avoid snow camping at higher elevations in zero degrees? And where are the voices who rebel against this current UL craze? Who tell the newbies it's all right to carry 50 or 60 pounds on their backs without fear of criticism?

Just as there is a vocal group trying to convince everyone to go UL, there also should be a group countering this by mentioning the drawbacks to UL backpacking and certainly attempting to counter the implied political correctness of the UL rule book.

[Ramble~On]

I have been studying the Joyce-Kilmer/ Citico wilderness trails and would like to get up there sometime this year. How is the trout fishing in Silck-Rock Creek? Any other stream recommendation?:confused:

Slickrock Creek from Calderwood Lake to Lower Falls is good..above that it is scarce but you can still find a native or two. Slickrock Creek is popular and you'll see that from the campsites along the banks.
Citico Creek is about the same but holds more fish.

[Ramble~On]

It's very difficult to find a decent 4 season tent nowadays that one person can carry and a tent that does not have unsealable mesh nettng. I settled on a spacious dome tent that weighs in at 8 pounds at 36 sq feet, almost the perfect tent for where I go and what conditions I face. The pack I use also weighs 8 pounds empty, so right there I'm looking at 16 pounds for just two items. Add a beefy winter thermarest and a minus 10 degree goose down bag and we're looking at a fulsome foursome of high ounces, all suitable to me.

My weight also comes from the books I like to carry and the extra food/fuel that is usually leftover after each trip. I always end up with too much food, at least 3 days worth, and hardly ever dip into my second stash of white gas fuel.

My combative harping comes from seeing a group of backpackers trying to go lighter and lighter while at the same time trying to convert others in a near-religious frenzy to go lighter. What then is the ultimate goal of such lightweight backpackers and their gear, to wear a buttpack and jog along the trail? To only go out when the weather is benign? To never carry 10 or 15 days worth of food? To avoid snow camping at higher elevations in zero degrees? And where are the voices who rebel against this current UL craze? Who tell the newbies it's all right to carry 50 or 60 pounds on their backs without fear of criticism?

Just as there is a vocal group trying to convince everyone to go UL, there also should be a group countering this by mentioning the drawbacks to UL backpacking and certainly attempting to counter the implied political correctness of the UL rule book.

I think there's a saying along the lines of...."Hike Your Own Hike"
Also what works for one may not at all work for another.
"Different strokes for different folks."
"The more I carry, the more I like camping..the less I carry the more I like hiking"
There is a difference too between low mile hiking/camping trips and long distance trips where resupply options limit the weight one can comfortably lug. I have never and hope to continue to avoid carrying 15 days worth of food at one time.
I hike heavy packs and I hike light ones..each trip to me is different and if anything I would admit to striving to keep total pack weight to a minimum whenever and however possible...I'm not preaching others should do the same..I am preaching people should hike their own hikes and enjoy them!
What I carry in my pack and how far I carry it doesn't effect you and likewise.

[generoll]

One of my more memorable sights was watching a brown trout trying to jump upstream at Lower Falls. I'm told they spawn in the creek and then go down to the Little Tennessee. On the same trip I met two fly fishermen. I of course asked them how the fishing was and the first guy mumbled something about the water being too warm and the sun too high and maybe the planets being misaligned. I don't recall exactly, but he apparently got skunked. A little farther up the trail I met another fisherman who had a pretty good list on the side he carried his creel. I asked him how fishing was and he just kinda grinned and said it was ok.

So there you are. Enjoy the creek for whatever purpose you intend to use it.

[Egads]

Tipi,

You are one of the most respected posters on Whiteblaze with more experience and sense than many put together.

But, we are going to disagree on the gear list. It has been said that one can either hike comfortably or camp comfortably, but not both at the same time. I am one in the camp that has chosen to lighten the load to enjoy the hiking experience more. You are correct that this restricts the range of conditions that will be both safe & comfortable. But you are incorrect in assuming that all UL hikers sit on the couch when the weather is cold, wet, or windy. Some of us just change our gear list for those conditions. (I'd love to go out with you next winter and experience some deep snow. I am sure that I would learn a thing or two. I'd even bring a Hilleberg if my wife wouldn't kill me for the price tag.)

I do feel obligated to make this point. It is difficult for me to get away more than a few days at a time other than maybe one longer trip per year. This keeps my food weight down and allows me to use a smaller &/or UL pack.

I am not claiming my style of backpacking is better than yours. Only that it is better for me, and I am sure that yours is better for you. All these newbs need to figure theirs out for themselves.

Hopefully I'll see you on the trail Tipi Walter.

Egads

[take-a-knee]

Tipi,

You are one of the most respected posters on Whiteblaze with more experience and sense than many put together.

But, we are going to disagree on the gear list. It has been said that one can either hike comfortably or camp comfortably, but not both at the same time. I am one in the camp that has chosen to lighten the load to enjoy the hiking experience more. You are correct that this restricts the range of conditions that will be both safe & comfortable. But you are incorrect in assuming that all UL hikers sit on the couch when the weather is cold, wet, or windy. Some of us just change our gear list for those conditions. (I'd love to go out with you next winter and experience some deep snow. I am sure that I would learn a thing or two. I'd even bring a Hilleberg if my wife wouldn't kill me for the price tag.)

I do feel obligated to make this point. It is difficult for me to get away more than a few days at a time other than maybe one longer trip per year. This keeps my food weight down and allows me to use a smaller &/or UL pack.

I am not claiming my style of backpacking is better than yours. Only that it is better for me, and I am sure that yours is better for you. All these newbs need to figure theirs out for themselves.

Hopefully I'll see you on the trail Tipi Walter.

Egads

Well said, I agree with you both. Sometimes you need to carry some weight, and a grown man should be able to do so. On the other hand I appreciate the new lightweight gear and don't pack more than I have to. When a grown man in good health posts and says he doesn't carry a map and compass 'cause they are too heavy, he doesn't need lighter gear, he needs a conditioning program.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Well said, I agree with you both. Sometimes you need to carry some weight, and a grown man should be able to do so. On the other hand I appreciate the new lightweight gear and don't pack more than I have to. When a grown man in good health posts and says he doesn't carry a map and compass 'cause they are too heavy, he doesn't need lighter gear, he needs a conditioning program.

I'd have to agree with that, when somebody doesn't carry a map and small compass because they're too heavy they definitely need a conditioning program - a mental one.

[Tipi Walter]

I think there's a saying along the lines of...."Hike Your Own Hike"
Also what works for one may not at all work for another.
"Different strokes for different folks."
"The more I carry, the more I like camping..the less I carry the more I like hiking"
There is a difference too between low mile hiking/camping trips and long distance trips where resupply options limit the weight one can comfortably lug. I have never and hope to continue to avoid carrying 15 days worth of food at one time.
I hike heavy packs and I hike light ones..each trip to me is different and if anything I would admit to striving to keep total pack weight to a minimum whenever and however possible...I'm not preaching others should do the same..I am preaching people should hike their own hikes and enjoy them!
What I carry in my pack and how far I carry it doesn't effect you and likewise.

My trip reports of late are getting to be more and more long rants about certain facets of backpacking and less about gear and trail descriptions, so bear with me. I agree in the 'hike your own hike' thing and I'm glad to see people get outdoors with a pack nomatter what's the weight. My screeds are reflections on the current state of backpacking and are to be taken just as the musings of an uppity old geezor.

Still, I believe there is a tendency nowadays by the UL crowd to push their cause and do so using numerous backpacking web sites, Whiteblaze included. My musings are an at-times sarcastic attempt to counter this UL barrage.

[Gray Blazer]

I had to laugh at some UL thrubees one time when my 7 lb tent stayed up overnite when a cold front came crashing thru and all the tarptenters were talking about quitting their nobo attempt cuz their tents blew down and everything got soaked and they were freezing.

[Ramble~On]

I had to laugh at some UL thrubees one time when my 7 lb tent stayed up overnite when a cold front came crashing thru and all the tarptenters were talking about quitting their nobo attempt cuz their tents blew down and everything got soaked and they were freezing.

Wow...that sounds familiar but I guyed out some trekking poles and went back to sleep.

[MOWGLI]

My screeds are reflections on the current state of backpacking and are to be taken just as the musings of an uppity old geezor.



Walter, for what it's worth, your posts are one of the things that keeps me comin' back to Whiteblaze. The gear chatter, the ridiculous "Where's (fill in the hiker name)" threads, and the constant pissing matches are all pretty tiresome to me. Your posts are a breath of fresh air.

Thanks for your contributions.

[ed bell]

Walter, for what it's worth, your posts are one of the things that keeps me comin' back to Whiteblaze. The gear chatter, the ridiculous "Where's (fill in the hiker name)" threads, and the constant pissing matches are all pretty tiresome to me. Your posts are a breath of fresh air.

Thanks for your contributions.
I will second that. Thanks, Tipi.

[DGG]

I'd nominate you for it, Walter, and you'd surely win. It's great to read reports that are about being out, especially in the winter, instead of about gear, and your rants clear the head. (Abbey did some ranting, too, you may recall.) If you're looking for another topic, how about your years in a tipi? Cheers, Dennis

[Tipi Walter]

I'd nominate you for it, Walter, and you'd surely win. It's great to read reports that are about being out, especially in the winter, instead of about gear, and your rants clear the head. (Abbey did some ranting, too, you may recall.) If you're looking for another topic, how about your years in a tipi? Cheers, Dennis

Before I moved to the Tennessee side of the mountains and into the Cherokee NF and discovered the Citico/Slickrock wilderness and all the trails in Monroe County, I lived in the Boone NC area for about 30 years and backpacked extensively in the mountains of Watauga County. Around 1978 I started living out and began getting backpacking gear for this purpose.

Around 1980 I built my first tipi and combined both my tent and the tipis for dwellings, and spent about 21 years living under lodgeskins until 2001 when I moved to TN. To actually describe Tipi Life would require many words and many pages, instead I'll just offer a few photos and let them speak instead.

Fotogs:
Along the one mile trail to the tipi. Everything I had at the tipi was carried up this trail with a climb of about 800 feet in a little less than one mile.

New canvas day at the lodge. I just hauled up this heavy canvas and wept openly somewhere along the trail half-way up.

Here's a good shot showing the place in a typical snow.

Here's Little Mitten coming for a visit. The lower outside of the tipi had a chicken wire fence to hold dead leaves for insulation.

The last shot shows me standing outside in a typical winter blizzard and high wind storm.

[CBSSTony]

Wasn't Watauga where one of the first European settlements was? Seems like I seen it on a show about where Rednecks came from or got started.

[weary]

Thanks for a great trip report. I've carried 65 pounds on occasion, like the time I took my wife and three kids -- ages 3, 4 and 6 -- into Chimney Pond on Katahdin.

Near 65 was common on long winter trips in Maine. And once after I resupplied in a supermarket on the AT. Such variety is hard to resist.

But I must confess I prefer 40 pounds -- and these days, 25. Age may not bring wisdom, but it certainly brings creaky knees and shoulder joints. My favorite tent remains the 6 pound, 32 square foot Moss (Starlight, I think) I bought at a factory store in 1991 to take a 9-year-old on a 300 mile walk through Maine.

Weary

[Gray Blazer]

Wasn't Watauga where one of the first European settlements was? Seems like I seen it on a show about where Rednecks came from or got started.
No, that was Blairsville, GA. :D

[4eyedbuzzard]

But I must confess I prefer 40 pounds -- and these days, 25. Age may not bring wisdom, but it certainly brings creaky knees and shoulder joints. My favorite tent remains the 6 pound, 32 square foot Moss (Starlight, I think) I bought at a factory store in 1991 to take a 9-year-old on a 300 mile walk through Maine.

Weary

Ditto on the 25 lbs, even as a "spring chicken" at 52. And the Moss tent. Best quality tents ever. Just sold my faithful Starlet, also bought in '91, earlier this year. I just don't honestly go out if conditions will be that bad that I'll need that solid a tent anymore, and at 5 1/2 to 6 lbs. it's just a bit much to lug around for mostly summer and early fall use.

[oldfivetango]

I would like to thank you Tipi Walter for absolving me of
the sin of not being an ultralighter.My winter pack is too
heavy and my summer pack is just about right but I dont
want to be cold and wet so thats the way it is.
OFT