View Full Version : Copperhead
I think this is a copperhead. It was beside the trail and I wasn't sure if I should do something to get it to move away or if I should change my route. I ended up wading through the creek and crawling up on the other side of the snake to get past it. The location was on Deep Creek Trail in the GSM between campsite 53 and 54.
How do you handle snakes that are impeding your progress on the trail?
Jack Tarlin
06-18-2008, 09:37
Your snake appears to be a healthy-looking timber rattler.
You did well to avoid it.
sherrill
06-18-2008, 09:39
Agreed. Once they've coiled up like that it's best to give them wide berth.
warraghiyagey
06-18-2008, 09:40
He looks cute. I woulda tried to pet him.
It didn't rattle. I stepped within 5 feet of it when I saw it. Of course, I quickly jumped back, and tried to get my heart pumping again.
Why didn't it rattle?
rattlers sometimes loses their rattles temporarily during molting, which is why you did the right thing and assumed it was poisonous
Jack Tarlin
06-18-2008, 09:51
See Bee:
Some quick thoughts on encountering poisonous snakes on the Trail:
*Obviously, never harm, or God forbid, kill them.
*Taking pictures from a safe distance is fine.
*Go around them if you can, tho be on the lookout for other snakes when you
leave the Trail. The two types of venomous snakes you'll encounter on the
A.T are family oriented and tend to live/den together. When you encounter
one on the Trail, you are almost certainly in the near presence of others.
*If the snake is ON the Trail and shows no signs of moving, you might want to
carefully, and very gently, move it off the Trail with a long stick. Obviously,
make no attempt to pick it up. Most snake bites are on the hands.
*You might wish to leave a note, or even two. What I'll do is leave a small
piece of paper under a rock 50 feet up/down the Trail that says something
like "Warning! Large rattler just ahead on Trail (or left of Trail or whatever),"
and I'll include the date and time. This is a nice thing to do, especially when
you know there are folks directly behind you.
*Never play with or tease the snake. You risk getting bitten; more to the
point, it means the next hiker who comes along will have to deal with a
tense, agitated, frightened snake, instead of one in its usual state, which is
calm, serene, non-aggressive, and not looking for trouble.
*Be on alert when you go and get water as these guys, especially copper-
heads, like to hang out near streams. Likewise, don't camp too close to
water, either.
*Keep dogs close, especially in central Pennsylvania, and avoid wearing
headphones here. You might also want to avoid night-hiking here as well,
as snakes are active when its cooler, i.e., after dark.
*Don't leave your tent unzipped as snakes have been known to go inside
them. I assure you this is not a pleasant surprise.
Jack Tarlin
06-18-2008, 09:52
Even snakes who haven't lost their rattles don't always warn you, which is one of the reasons to fore-go your music player in snake country.
Berserker
06-18-2008, 10:06
I actually just ran into 2 timber rattlers when I did the GA section the first week of June (attached a picture of one of them). Typically I will just make a wide berth around a poisonous snake, and was able to do so with the two I saw in GA. I will preface what I am about to say with "do this at your own risk". If a snake is impeding my progress and I cannot get around it, then I'll try to find a nice long (and I stress long) stick and prod at it. Usually they'll slither off from the prodding. Sometimes they'll coil up like the one in your picture. If that happens and it is still in the way I will prod/move it with the stick. I have never had one not move from this much harassment. Also make sure the prodding is very gentle as the snake will usually remain un-aggressive if you are gentle with it.
Typically they have to be provoked pretty incessantly to actually strike, and they can only strike some fraction of their body length (1/3 or 1/2 I think). So if you do decide to start messing with it like I have outlined above I cannot stress enough the length of the stick (i.e. make sure it is at least longer than the snake). Also make sure you have a clear escape route should the snake come at you.
At any rate, trying to avoid a poisonous snake is the best option, and I would only do the above if there were no way to avoid it (i.e. poison ivy all over the place, trail to steep on sides, etc.).
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-18-2008, 11:14
I always avoid any coiled snake because they coil when they feel threatened - and snakes bite when they feel threatened.
I have often walked past snakes stretched out on rocks sunning and just made sure not to give them any reason to fear me (sudden movements - moving close to them - prodding or scaring them).
A few weeks ago we came across a guy warning us of a pissed off rattler up the trail a few hundred yards from where we were camping, in the Pisgah Nat'l Forest.
We went over to see, and it was coiled about two feet off the trail, so I used long sticks to got it at least 15 feet off the very busy trail. It was about 5 feet long, and very fat. It was the biggest rattler I've ever seen.
It struck out a few times, into air, but a 10 foot stick did wonders for my personal safety.
I wouldn't have bothered the snake, but other hikers had pointed out that during the day the snake had gone from calmly laying on the trail, to being irritated, and refusing to move off the trail, because hikers had been throwing sticks at it.
I felt it was prudent to coerce the snake away from the trail.
musicwoman
06-18-2008, 11:48
There is a theory currently that rattlers are slowly loosing their propensity to rattle, thru evolution.
Timber rattlesnakes are surprisingly non-aggressive. Whether they were always this way, or the more assertive individuals were culled from the gene pool by shovel and club, is an open question. The preferred response of a timber rattlesnake to an unknown situation is not to draw attention to itself.
Of course, if there are people throwing rocks or sticks at it, it is going to get annoyed, in which case the best thing to do is give it a nice wide berth. They can strike 1/2 their body length, which can be hard to estimate if the snake is coiled.
Beautiful yellow phase by the way!!
BobTheBuilder
06-18-2008, 11:50
I say always move them (gently and humanely, of course). You have a responsibility to the other people and maybe dogs on the trail not to leave it where they can be surprised. You are also doing the snake a favor, as scared or mean people could actually hurt a snake. Plus, it is a real adrenaline rush and makes a cool story.
A few weeks ago we came across a guy warning us of a pissed off rattler up the trail a few hundred yards from where we were camping, in the Pisgah Nat'l Forest.
We went over to see, and it was coiled about two feet off the trail, so I used long sticks to got it at least 15 feet off the very busy trail. It was about 5 feet long, and very fat. It was the biggest rattler I've ever seen.
It struck out a few times, into air, but a 10 foot stick did wonders for my personal safety.
I wouldn't have bothered the snake, but other hikers had pointed out that during the day the snake had gone from calmly laying on the trail, to being irritated, and refusing to move off the trail, because hikers had been throwing sticks at it.
I felt it was prudent to coerce the snake away from the trail.
That's a beautiful snake! Thanks for the photo.
earlyriser26
06-18-2008, 12:20
Yes, this is a rattler, but Copperheads will also coil up in the same way. I almost stepped on one in MD of all places. It was vey big and was coiled like your picture. At first I thought it was a rattle snake, but looked it up and found it to be a Copperhead. Walk around them and watch for others in the area. I moved Mr. copperhead off the trail with my hiking stick and hiked on.
some rattlers have been known to reach 2/3's their body length when striking.
musicwoman
06-18-2008, 12:39
some rattlers have been known to reach 2/3's their body length when striking.
I would imagine some of the rattlers in the Western US might have that capability as they aren't nearly as heavy bodied as a Timber, but I'm not sure.
I would imagine some of the rattlers in the Western US might have that capability as they aren't nearly as heavy bodied as a Timber, but I'm not sure.
just speaking from experience in the southeast;)
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-18-2008, 12:47
I've seen a ticked-off black snake jump the full length of its body and for that reason I always give a coiled snake at least one body length of 'personal space' While non-poisonous snake bites are not nearly as dangerous as poisonous bites, they are still pretty unpleasant.
Thanks for all the info. So, that is a yellow phase timber rattler. Nice to know.
As far as moving the snake off the trail which I didn't do, I don't think there were any hikers behind me at the time. I did run into somebody going westbound on day 2 and warned him about the creek area.
I was actually more concerned with bear after walking through campsite 53. There were bear warning signs posted and the camp was closed to campers. I slept with one eye open at campsite 57. but no bears!! phew.
A pheasant did try to scare us away by puffing up and running at us. Funniest dang thing!!
There is a Timber Rattler at the Chattanooga Nature center that is the biggest you'll ever see. It was taken from some idjit that had it illegally, and gave it steroids. True story.
If I could, I'd like to draft the thing for my Men's Over 40 Softball league. :rolleyes:
Man, not much scares me but every time I run into a snake on the trail I jump LOL...
DesertMTB
06-18-2008, 13:26
There is a theory currently that rattlers are slowly loosing their propensity to rattle, thru evolution.
I've ridden right over several rattlesnakes while mountain biking in Arizona. They never rattled after I rode over them.
musicwoman
06-18-2008, 13:38
just speaking from experience in the southeast;)
Another thing about Timbers, some of them pump iron so they have longer strike ranges.
You can tell which ones they are by the little "Gold's Gym" tank tops they wear. ;)
Good eating, make great belts, and the rattles can be sold on Ebay.
and the rattles can be sold on Ebay.
or worn on your pack to keep hikers away :eek:
Dirtygaiters
06-19-2008, 21:19
The danger of venomous snakes is grossly exaggerated in popular culture. As far as copperheads and timber rattlers go, they are about the most docile snakes I know.
I have seen copperheads strike from a position that was not "coiled". It was definately more serpentine. And it didn't take it but a second to go from "at reast" to the strike position.
the S shape is when you really need to be alert. coiled is often a rest position
Jack Tarlin
06-21-2008, 00:18
Hmmm.....
Snakes actually seen in a "serpentine" position?
How unusual! Call the Associated Press! :D
_terrapin_
06-21-2008, 00:22
Hmmm.....
Snakes actually seen in a "serpentine" position?
How unusual! Call the Associated Press! :D
Or the Department of Redundancy Department.
TIDE-HSV
06-21-2008, 01:43
I saw a sizable rattler just to the west of where you were, See Bee, on Forney Creek at the old CCC camp. We'd had a long day, wading the creek many times on the way down from Clingman's Dome. After we made camp, I walked down the trail to where the left-over metal and all from the CCC camp was and walked up to within six feet of the snake before I saw him coiled. I said, aloud, "You didn't rattle." I then ran back up to the campsite to get my daughter, but the snake was gone by the time we could walk back down...
Slo-go'en
06-21-2008, 02:04
If thier just streached out across the trail, soaking up some morning sun, I just step right over 'em and let 'em be. (near the tail end, just in case) Did this a couple of times in PA last year, they didn't seem to know or care I just went by.
Yeah, I realized the word "serpentine" was the wrong choice when I used it, but, bygod, it conjured up the image I was seeking.
_terrapin_
06-22-2008, 12:30
Yeah, I realized the word "serpentine" was the wrong choice when I used it, but, bygod, it conjured up the image I was seeking.
We were just having a bit of fun is all. ;) Jack is nothing if not a cunning linguist.
musicwoman
06-22-2008, 12:34
Went hiking in Harriman SP yesterday. Did some of the AT along with some of the Long Path.
Found these 2 beauties on the summit of Long Mountain:)
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=25651&catid=member&imageuser=14008
Jack Tarlin
06-22-2008, 13:05
Great photo. One of the three biggest timbers I ever saw on the A.T. was in Harriman. You guys might wanna shut off the music player if you're passing thru here. :rolleyes:
musicwoman
06-22-2008, 13:40
Great photo. One of the three biggest timbers I ever saw on the A.T. was in Harriman. You guys might wanna shut off the music player if you're passing thru here. :rolleyes:
Thank you. My son also retrieved a fresh shed from the summit. Wondering if there is a way to preserve it?
Jack Tarlin
06-22-2008, 13:43
What an excellent question.
If you call the Museum of Science in Boston MA, or the Trailside in Museum in Milton MA, I'd bet they could tell you. (I remember these places from my childhood, and they both have resident snake experts on staff!)
Jack Tarlin
06-22-2008, 13:44
Better idea: I just Googled "preserving a snake skin" and got more info than I know what to do with. I'm sure you'll get your answer here....or maybe several different ones!
musicwoman
06-22-2008, 13:49
Better idea: I just Googled "preserving a snake skin" and got more info than I know what to do with. I'm sure you'll get your answer here....or maybe several different ones!
Got it!
Not much I need to do as it is a shed vs. a skin. Straighten it out as flat as possible (very fragile and it might tear) on a flat surface and cover w/ something like Saran Wrap. Oughtta be a real hit at show and tell:rolleyes:
musicwoman
06-22-2008, 14:19
Jack, In your travels thru Harriman, did you notice that people have a habit of stripping bark off of live birch trees for fire starter? Also, they seem to have no problem using wood cut from live trees to start fires. Aggravates me to no end to see that kind of ignorance.
saimyoji
06-22-2008, 18:24
What an excellent question.
If you call the Museum of Science in Boston MA, or the Trailside in Museum in Milton MA, I'd bet they could tell you. (I remember these places from my childhood, and they both have resident snake experts on staff!)
Better idea: I just Googled "preserving a snake skin" and got more info than I know what to do with. I'm sure you'll get your answer here....or maybe several different ones!
Always better to have a snake expert on your staff. :cool:
Sidewinder
06-22-2008, 18:51
I found part of a shed copperhead skin in my yard today. About 18-20" of it was intact, several pieces scattered around and torn up like birds had been pecking at it. Nesting material???
musicwoman
06-22-2008, 18:59
I found part of a shed copperhead skin in my yard today. About 18-20" of it was intact, several pieces scattered around and torn up like birds had been pecking at it. Nesting material???
Perhaps, however, Copperheads are the smallest of the pit vipers found in the US.
Finding one over 3 feet long would be rare.
Snakes shed their skin in part due to parasitic activity. It could be very well that the birds went at the shed in because it had various food sources on it.
In the area where I live 18-20" is average length for copperheads, but one was killed during the construction of my house that measured 42". I saw it after it was dead so I know the guys didn't make it up. Since then someone else killed one in my backyard measuring 28". I usually find 3-4 every July/Aug somewhere around the house or in the drive. I didn't see the one that left a fang mark in my hiking boot until after it tagged my boot. It didn't go all the way through, but my heart pumped like it did. :eek:
Jack Tarlin
06-22-2008, 19:36
Wow. Three and a half feet is kind of a gigundous copperhead. GLad to say that this doesn't happen often.
Wow. Three and a half feet is kind of a gigundous copperhead. GLad to say that this doesn't happen often.
me too, especially now that where is was killed is my backyard.
musicwoman
06-22-2008, 20:15
"Adults average two to three feet in length, but there are occasional "giants" that may reach 3 1/2 feet. Diet consists of small prey animals such as insects, small frogs and toads, fish, reptiles and rodents for juveniles. However, as they reach adult size their diet becomes more specialized and consists of mostly rodents."
Definitely the exception to the rule. I wouldn't be thrilled finding one in my backyard either. However, their venom is mild in comparision to the other pit vipers found in the USA. Death, or even disfigurement (they have a hemotoxic venom as opposed to neurotoxic) is unlikely, even without medical intervention.
That said, if you are ever bitten by any type of snake, medical attention should be the first priority. Whether you think the snake is venomous or not!
There is a Timber Rattler at the Chattanooga Nature center that is the biggest you'll ever see. It was taken from some idjit that had it illegally, and gave it steroids. True story.
If I could, I'd like to draft the thing for my Men's Over 40 Softball league. :rolleyes:
Here's the snake ....
http://www.chattanooganaturecenter.org/timber_rattlesnake.htm
wrongway_08
02-28-2009, 21:51
Rattle snakes that are coiled but have there head/tail layn down, are just sitting there - they dont mean no harm.
Rattle snakes that are coiled once/ have their tail up and the head bent in a slight "S" formation are ready to defend themselves. They keep their rattlers all the time, even while shedding.
Corrected, (enlarged the photo and got a better look) What it appears you had was a Rattler that just got startled and was getting into a defense mode. give him a little room :) .
Rattlers that are stretched out are sunning and just looking to chill out.
--------------------------
Copper heads are fast striking, they have short tempers. Be carefull around them.
====================================
You will know if you get bite by a venomous snake, it will burn. Dont freak out, unless you have a severe allergy to the venom, are really old/young or have a heart condition - you'll be fine. Just get to a hospital. Take your time, keep calm.
Happy hiking.
Alligator
02-28-2009, 21:54
Here's the snake ....
http://www.chattanooganaturecenter.org/timber_rattlesnake.htmShe'll have the jumbo size rat and a supersize order of pinkies.
wrongway_08
02-28-2009, 21:59
great looking snake!
I have been looking for a Pigmy Rattler to have as a pet..... cant seem to find any.
hootyhoo
02-28-2009, 22:25
I think it was a Discovery Channel show I was watching - There was a Professional that was demonstrating how much a snake would take before it actually struck. He pushed it with his foot. Bumped it with his foot. He pushed and pushed. It never would strike him. Of course with my luck a passing breeze would be enough for it to empty both venom sacks into me - I avoid them. Another place I have seen them - apparently drawn by the large mouse population, is in GSM shelters. Especially under the bottom level bunks. I have seen them there twice.
great looking snake!
I have been looking for a Pigmy Rattler to have as a pet..... cant seem to find any.
We have a bunch.next time i see one it's yours.:)
wrongway_08
03-01-2009, 05:13
We have a bunch.next time i see one it's yours.:)
I will hold you to that!!:)
maybe you could just ship it ups, maybe label it "childs rattle" to put the workers at ease! :D
Here's the snake ....
http://www.chattanooganaturecenter.org/timber_rattlesnake.htm
As I sit at my computer in my home, I am looking at the building that the snake is exhibited in. :banana
Yes, I agree with Jack Tarlin---- the snake does appear to be a Timber Rattler. Wise decicion you made. If that had been a male Copperhead, it would have struck you before you knew he was there. A male Copperhead is born mad at the world. A Female copperhead is quite the opposite. But don't take any chances, they are all dangerous. Rattlers don't allways rattle.
All Appalachian Trail hikers should know how to identify timber rattlesnakes (http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/wildlife/rattlesnakes.aspx) and copperheads (http://www.fish.state.pa.us/copprhe.htm). Both are protected species (http://www.fish.state.pa.us/fishpub/summary/repamp.html) in Pennsylvania. It is unlawful to hunt, take, catch, or kill timber rattlesnakes encountered on the A.T. where there is no open season. Unless hikers have a permit issued by Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission (PFBC), they have no business doing anything with copperheads either other than observing them.
modiyooch
03-01-2009, 19:54
I knew at one time, but I forget. How far north can you find these snakes? I saw two in PA and didn't care much of it. Well, more specifically, are there poisonous snakes in MA, VT or NH?? Also, have you heard of a snake that would mimic the rattle but not be a rattlesnake?
High Life
03-01-2009, 20:02
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near port clinton - near the look out .. they dont bother you if you dont bother them
and i agree with what jack said
High Life
03-01-2009, 20:03
crap sorry that didnt work heres a link http://www.flickr.com/photos/broken_images/2591106947/
I may be correct in posting the farthest north either could be encountered on the A.T. is Massachusetts, but they will not be encountered north of the Connecticut River unless someone discovers a new population or a snake someone released illegally, based upon what I've read online. The exact locations of endangered species, threatened species or species of concern are ordinarily only made available on a need to know basis.
If someone wants to Google tonight, locate and read what Massachusetts' reptile management agency has online. I'm sure they have something I read before and may even have linked.
I'll PM Herpn and ask him to post what he feels would be appropriate.
McKeever
03-01-2009, 20:25
Virginia has cottonmouths too, so that's the 3rd species of poisonous snakes on the AT. It can be very difficult to id snakes by color, but one thing that's for sure is the large triangular head.
Remember the three step rule. If you walk up on a snake, take three quick steps away. Don't try to move the snake off the trail, they can strike in 1/100 of a second! Back up the trail 50 yards and leave a note in the trail with a rock in the middle of it so it won't blow away. Walk around the snake and leave another note 50 yds past the snake on the trail. If you get bitten, call the Jaycee's in west Texas, they will help you skin it and eat it!
Venomous snakes on the A.T. have been the subject of many threads. Virginia does have cottonmouths, but I've yet to see anyone post solid evidence of a cottonmouth on the A.T. If you have any, I'm not the only person who'd love to see it.:)
Where do you believe they may be found?
NatureTalk
03-01-2009, 21:38
My wife and I were up on the Appalachian Trail a few years back. We'd hiked half the day to get there, and would need the other half to get back down.
We come upon a big rattler in middle of trail. We're on a steep ridge, ground falls off steeply in to high weeds on both sides. No way to go around.
It's at least 12 hours if we turn and take the trail the other way, leaving us in the woods at night.
It's forward or die. :-)
Sticks and stones tossed from a distance saved the day.
And then we spent the rest of the day walking through lots of knee high weeds, which become more interesting after seeing the big rattler.
To preserve a shed I have wrapped it in paper towels to get out the residual moisture and put it in a dry place in a cotton pillowcase. To take a nice picture of a shed, put it on a white paper background with a yardstick.
Virginia has cottonmouths too, so that's the 3rd species of poisonous snakes on the AT.
Cottonmouths don't range into the Appalachians in VA or elsewhere. Check the range maps. They are not on the AT.
http://www.herpedia.com/gallery/albums/userpics/normal_Agkistrodon-piscivorus--range-map.png
WILLIAM HAYES
03-02-2009, 00:52
it is a rattlesnake not a copperhead. sometimes they don't rattle
I'll PM Herpn and ask him to post what he feels would be appropriate.
He's received my PM, but wants to read the entire thread before making what I anticipate will be a single post. Readers may expect an answer, perhaps the best which may be had.
Being connected is cool.:cool:
peakbagger
03-02-2009, 13:00
There is a least one den of timber rattlers in Vermont. A local person who appreciates them purchased the property to protect them. I do not know its location but I have heard him interviewed once or twice.
There may be other denning locations even up in NH, but they are not publicized as there are poachers in the region that alledgedly will raid the dens when they find out about them. Apparently if one knows what they are doing, they can clean out a den in a very short period.
wrongway_08
03-02-2009, 13:12
Yea, doesnt take long to clean a den out .... bunch of butt-holes! Hmm.. would be cool to catch them doing it, then hold them down while you "milk" a few snakes into their arms..... "looks like they died from snake bites.... "
medicjimr
03-02-2009, 13:40
Well after reading these last night I just got done surfing for snake proof gaitors and they will be ordered sood I am terrified of snakes But enjoy the outdoors and wont let them detur me.
Jim Adams
03-02-2009, 13:52
Cottonmouths don't range into the Appalachians in VA or elsewhere. Check the range maps. They are not on the AT.
Although not actually up on the mountains (way out of their element) I have seen them in the Shennandoh River near SNP.
Also other than selected dens here or there such as the one noted in Vermont, the normal accepted northern limit of venomous snakes in the eastern US is Mass. however Missassauga Rattle snakes are found in Canada near Toronto, On.
geek
McKeever
03-02-2009, 14:34
Copperheads are common on the trail and rattle snakes on the rocky ridge, the cottonmouth waits for you underneath the creek bridge. They can be encountered near creeks in the SW Virginia mountains and are often spotted swimming in open water during hot weather. Hikers should keep in mind that they can encounter a cottonmouth around water along the AT from GA to VA. I guess we're lucky that we don't have southern coral snakes in the mountains and the cottonmouths are more prevalent along the coastal plains.
wrongway_08
03-02-2009, 14:54
Well after reading these last night I just got done surfing for snake proof gaitors and they will be ordered sood I am terrified of snakes But enjoy the outdoors and wont let them detur me.
Really, they are not worth the weight and bulk and money. You will walk pass a lot of vipers on the trail and most likely never know it.
I was out looking for them and only managed to catch 1 copper head and 2 rattlers.
You see a lot a rat snakes and garter snakes but they wont hurt yea.
My phot shows the biggest rattler I cought on my thru, had 11 buttons!! he was a big boy, real relaxed and mellow.
Hikers should keep in mind that they can encounter a cottonmouth around water along the AT from GA to VA.
Sorry. It just ain't so.
mister krabs
03-02-2009, 15:03
As I sit at my computer in my home, I am looking at the building that the snake is exhibited in. :banana
Really? Are you in the building across the field from the back? I was there a few weeks ago. Nice locale you got there mowgli.
Really? Are you in the building across the field from the back? I was there a few weeks ago. Nice locale you got there mowgli.
That's me! :banana
wrongway_08
03-02-2009, 15:04
yea, its true, those boundery maps are not set in stone. Its very rare and since these are extremely fast moving snakes, most dont get to see them.
They are unmistakable when spotted - evil looking little suckers, you can tell they aint scared of you.... even I have trouble getting enough stupidity together to catch these snakes!
wrongway_08
03-02-2009, 15:06
:) just kidding - they are mostly outta range, you might get lucky in the eastern/southern GA area but thats about it.
McKeever
03-02-2009, 15:40
The web site for the Virginia Game and Island Fisheries is prob going to be the scientific authority on the subject of cotton mouths in Virginia. According to their website, the cotton mouth has not been observed west of Colonial Heights, which is still far east of the Blue Ridge. It's also worth mentioning that the northern water snake is everywhere and frequently mistaken for a cottonmouth.
There are too many people over the years that have reported cotton mouth sightings or along the creeks in the Allegheny's near the trail in VA, including myself, not to give caution. What I mean by a sighting is a coiled snake with it's mouth open, triangular head, aggressively showing a white cotton mouth. If you have sighted one, you will not forget it. I also have friends that have killed such snakes with fangs but not being part of this discussion, left them for dead instead of taking them to the game warden or VA Tech.
Perhaps a revised hiker caution would be appropriate that although out of it's known range of eastern coastal plains, snakes resembling cotton mouths have been sighted along the water sheds of the AT in SW and Central VA and are probably the non poisonous Northern Water Snake, however hikers should use caution due to the number of claims of sightings of cotton mouths.
The web site for the Virginia Game and Island Fisheries is prob going to be the scientific authority on the subject of cotton mouths in Virginia. According to their website, the cotton mouth has not been observed west of Colonial Heights, which is still far east of the Blue Ridge. It's also worth mentioning that the northern water snake is everywhere and frequently mistaken for a cottonmouth.
There are too many people over the years that have reported cotton mouth sightings or along the creeks in the Allegheny's near the trail in VA, including myself, not to give caution. What I mean by a sighting is a coiled snake with it's mouth open, triangular head, aggressively showing a white cotton mouth. If you have sighted one, you will not forget it. I also have friends that have killed such snakes with fangs but not being part of this discussion, left them for dead instead of taking them to the game warden or VA Tech.
Perhaps a revised hiker caution would be appropriate that although out of it's known range of eastern coastal plains, snakes resembling cotton mouths have been sighted along the water sheds of the AT in SW and Central VA and are probably the non poisonous Northern Water Snake, however hikers should use caution due to the number of claims of sightings of cotton mouths.
Thanks McKeever. I certainly don't want to argue. I wish we had them here in Chattanooga. We don't as far as I know. I have only seen one and that was in Paine's Prairie in Florida. A very impressive snake!
In 2000 I mistook a water snake for a moccasin in VA. That caused me to look into it. If they really are along the AT, I'd love to see proof. I'm a bit of a herp buff.
McKeever
03-02-2009, 15:50
I ask the locals here to keep one if they any this summer, although I do not advocate killing any snake unless bitten.
I think this is a copperhead. It was beside the trail and I wasn't sure if I should do something to get it to move away or if I should change my route. I ended up wading through the creek and crawling up on the other side of the snake to get past it. The location was on Deep Creek Trail in the GSM between campsite 53 and 54.
How do you handle snakes that are impeding your progress on the trail?once in PA i came across a mother with youngins and hopped across them,needless to say i was off the trail.As I was turning around the mother pointed her head towards the AT and pretty much said"hey dummy the trail is that way"rattler's are a funny breed.ky
Mal the Elder
03-02-2009, 16:39
My wife and I were up on the Appalachian Trail a few years back. We'd hiked half the day to get there, and would need the other half to get back down.
We come upon a big rattler in middle of trail. We're on a steep ridge, ground falls off steeply in to high weeds on both sides. No way to go around.
It's at least 12 hours if we turn and take the trail the other way, leaving us in the woods at night.
It's forward or die. :-)
Sticks and stones tossed from a distance saved the day.
And then we spent the rest of the day walking through lots of knee high weeds, which become more interesting after seeing the big rattler.
But not nearly as hairy as the 'gators laying all over the trail out to the Persimmon Point tower, eh?
emerald Thanks for sending me a message about this thread. I have not read all the previous posts (I will) so I am answering this with ignorance of what others have said. As for how far north do venomous snakes range on the AT. Timber Rattlesnakes used to range all they way up to Main. They are in VT and also NH. They are considered extirpated from main and most of NH but I am sure (have high hopes) that there are locations where these animals are and they not been reported yet. Also places that are now considered extirpated could one day bounce back if left alone and become a viable population. This being said, I would like to let everyone know that these snakes do not bite unless harassed, being picked up or stepped on. The stepping on is the one most of you are probably concerned with. I think 90% of snake bites in the US are associated with males ages 15-50 that have had at least 3 drinks and were harrasing them. The other 10% are true accidents, people not seeing them and stepping on them. Also most of the bites are from the south GA, SC and westward. Venomous snake bites in the wild in New England are very rare.
VENOM.
When a pit viper bites is has the ability to hold back and NOT inject venom. When they do this it is called a dry bite. These dry bites happen about 50% of the time where little or no venom is injected. So back to steping on them, (dont do it ;)). When you step on a snake and it bites you this often is a reflex, they are often sleeping or dont see you. When they feel you crushing them they react by biting. When they are hunting they injcect their precious venom to imobolize (kill) their prey and this venom starts the digestion process befor it is even in their stomach. This helps them to digest large meals from the inside out as well as the outside in, cutting digestion time in half. When a snake has a large meal in it they are vunerable, they can not move fast. This venome takes energy to produce so they are generally not going to wast it on a 100-200 lb animal that they can not eat. This is the reason they formed rattles this was to let large animals Bison etc. know that they were there so they did not get stepped on. The venom was not designed to kill large animals Timber Rattlesnake venom is not very toxic as far a rattlesnake venom goes. I tell people that they generally would not be able to kill a healthy adult. Complications can happen but as long as you get medical attention in a timely manner your would not die. I cant recall any deaths EVER from a Timber Rattlesnake bite in New England even without medical attention. As for climbing into you sleeping bags, this could happen I have no idea how many times it has happend but I am pretty sure it is not many. People love to make up stories about snakes, we know how some people tell fish stories well Snake Stories are even worse (or better). When someone (who is afraid of snakes) sees a snake they normally at least double the size of the animal so a 3 foot snake is turned into a 6 foot snake.
Timber Rattlesnakes are generally very placid majestic animals. I have picked up many (to move them out of harms way to relocate them or for research purposes) and they normally dont even try to bite. If you are gental with them and dont stress them out they can be moved with out them even opening their mouths. They will often rattle way before they will attempt to bite. I dont suggest trying to move them as this will stress them out and is illeagal in some states. If it is on the trail and you are concerned that others might not see it, put up a note on a tree (I have see people do this on the AT with bees nests). In some states these are an Endangered species and the killing or even harrasing is punishable by law.
Also besides killing them there are people out there who will poach these animals and keep them. Or kill them for their skins. So it is not a great idea to let too many people know where you saw them. Obviously for safty reasons you all let people know where you have seen them on the trail but this good information can be used against the snakes...
Sorry it was so long, but I hope some people who have a fear for these magnificant animals are at least put at ease a bit.
Happy Hiking!
Chuck Annicelli
www.HerpetologicalSurveys.com (http://www.herpetologicalsurveys.com/)
Jack Tarlin said it all about snakes on the trail. I have only one thing to add. They are nocturnal, do take a headlamp on the way to the mid night visit to the privy in the summer. The few people I know who have been bitten, stepped ona copperhead on the way to a potty break at night with no headlamp.
WritinginCT
03-03-2009, 11:45
:) just kidding - they are mostly outta range, you might get lucky in the eastern/southern GA area but thats about it.
Lucky?!?!?!!! :eek:
For me it's a tough call to say which gives me the willies more- swimming snakes or snakes slithering up the side of a tree.
Aren't cottonmouths exceptionally aggressive? Or is that just myth?
Herpn- that's an awesome write up- thanks! And btw- that copperhead photo in the header on your site is just gorgeous. I never knew they could be that bright.
WritinginCT Thanks. That was an exceptional copperhead, very bright...
Erin they are not alwyas nocturnal. I find most of mine out during the day. They like it the same temp that most of us do, 70's - 80"s. If it get too hot they will go in.
Well I have read all of the comments and posts, there was some good info given and some bad info given. Funny how snakes get a huge emotional response from people, negative and positive. As much as some of you hate them there are people who love that just as much (like myself).
If you see one on the trail simply walk around it, no need to turn back or re-rout you trip. ;) Snakes are NOT going to go towards you unless that is the only way for them to get away. Don't throw stuff at them just walk around them. Don't pick them up, I see lots of Timbers and Copperheads and I would love to pick them all up BUT I try not to bother them. I don't even like to get too close and scare them. Just by making the snake move you are negatively impacting its life I know it sounds treehuggerish but it is true. Gravid or pregnant females need to bask/Thermoregualte in order to incubate the young inside them so they can develop at a proper rate. By scaring a snake to take refuge this is not letting them maintain optimum body temps. Here in New England these snakes are at the extent of their range. Places like VT and New Hampshire are barley warm enough for these snakes to prosper. In these colder states the season is so short that these snakes may only breed once every 3-5 years or longer. If a snake is bothered enough it may cause it to drop its babies a week or 2 later than it should. This could negatively impact the babies, and cause them to not get to the den on time, they might get caught in a frost and die (they tend to drop . Timbers only have on average 8-10 babies. It takes these snakes about 10 years to become sexually mature. So take a normal life expectancy of 15-25 years and you have a snake the would produce 10-50 babies in its life. Not all of these babies survive so you are looking at very low recruitment of young into a population. Long lived animals with low birth #s are the ones in danger of becoming extinct.
Problems.
There were bounties on these snakes from the late 1800's till the mid 70's throughout their range. This along with the deforestation of much of New England just about wiped out the snakes in much of their range. Once the bounties were stopped incidental killing did not. If these snakes wander into a yard they will often meet their demise. In places like VT, even though these animals are protected as endangered they are still killed and skinned for their hides for trophy purposes. All these issues along with the HUGE development explosion that has been going on for the past 20-30 years has put a huge strain on these magnificent animals. The last thing we need is for environmentally conscious people who like to get out on a trail to bother, harass or even kill them. Even removing one adult snake from a population has huge negative impact on the population. These snakes have a large range, up to 5 miles. With the recent population explosion of people into the more remote areas roads are being put in that cut these animals off from certain dens or from summer foraging area. Once a den is cut off from another den there is no longer communication from one den to another, this leads to a cut off population and there is no vigor in this group of animals. They get inbred and can acquire some genetic mutations that will negatively effect their survival.
Don't throw stuff at them, just hitting one with a small rock or stick could cause its death. You may hit it with a rock and it crawls away, you wont know you gave it a fatal injury because will crawl away and die with out you knowing.
If anyone wants to know more about Timber Rattlesnakes I suggest reading Timber Rattlesnakes of Vermont & New York by Jon Furman.
Happy Hiking!
Chuck Annicelli
www.HerpetologicalSurveys.com (http://www.herpetologicalsurveys.com/)
If someone wants to Google tonight, locate and read what Massachusetts' reptile management agency has online. I'm sure they have something I read before and may even have linked.
Since no one's posted what Massachusetts has provided, I'll post it. It didn't take 5 minutes to find and officials there have thought it appropriate information to provide to the general public. Go here (http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/nhesp/species_info/nhfacts/agkistrodon_contortix.pdf) to read information specific to copperheads in Massachusetts.
Berkshire County is indicated on the copperhead range map in the linked document, but I believe the text indicates they haven't been seen there in 25 years. While it may be possible you'll see one there, it's more likely you won't. ATC or Massachusetts officials would likely want to know if you do.
To learn more about Massachusetts species listed as endangered, threatened or of special concern, click on Natural Heritage and Endangered Species Program (NHESP) (http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/nhesp/nhesp.htm).
High Life
03-08-2009, 17:00
The Blue Hills Reservation ( which has some great hiking IMHO) has a small population of
Timber rattle snakes , most likely has copperheads as well. You're more likely to find one 20 minutes from boston , MA then on the AT in MA because of the Dry and Rocky Terrain
I have seen Rattle Snakes in That area
ColdFire
03-08-2009, 22:54
I was wondering if anyone could please help me identify this type of snake I saw on the trail today. thanks :sun
ColdFire
03-08-2009, 22:56
haha oops here's the pic
What a great photo!
I want to hear the locals chime in because I am curious, don't live there and want to learn. We don't have them over here but it looks like a gray rat snake. It does not look venomous. It looks like our prairie king snakes, but I don't think you have those over there. Music woman? Others?
http://www.uga.edu/srelherp/snakes/index.htm
ColdFire
03-09-2009, 00:16
Hmm thanks for the link but I've already looked at that link and imo it does'nt show anything that looks like the one in my pic so thats why I asked here. :)
Back Rat Snake! Where were you? What day (date) did you see it?
PS: I am not getting e-mails letting me know that there has been a reply to the thread, I will check my settings. If someone has a specific question and it does not get answered here please feel to send me an e-mail to HerpN@sbcglobal.net.
Cheers,
Chuck
wrongway_08
03-10-2009, 15:23
Lucky?!?!?!!! :eek:
For me it's a tough call to say which gives me the willies more- swimming snakes or snakes slithering up the side of a tree.
Aren't cottonmouths exceptionally aggressive? Or is that just myth?
Herpn- that's an awesome write up- thanks! And btw- that copperhead photo in the header on your site is just gorgeous. I never knew they could be that bright.
Yes, cotton mouths are very aggressive - 2 that I tried to catch, they came at me before I saw them - I started to run, then had to laugh at myself for running from a snake...... Ended up not catching them because I had nothing to help hold the head down....... Man are they pissy snakes!!!! Both snakes came from the waters edge, heading towards me. Not sure why???
Had another head across the dirt while offroading - by the time I hit the brakes and jumped out of the Jeep after it, it was across the path and into the woods, could not find it.
puddingboy
03-10-2009, 17:26
Wrongway no offense but that seems kinda stupid.
I agree that it is a timber rattler, the only poisonous snake in Iowa.
I am not getting e-mails letting me know that there has been a reply to the thread, I will check my settings.
If you want them, scroll up, click thread tools and check the subscribe box. See also Edit Options, Messaging and Notifications (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/profile.php?do=editoptions).
wrongway_08
03-10-2009, 18:29
Wrongway no offense but that seems kinda stupid.
No offense taken, been catching snakes since i could barely walk, so its nothing strange to me. One thing - I do know what I'm doing, not like I go out and mess with all these snakes/animals without learning about them first.
And yea, sooner or later something will happen but thats with anything anyone does - car racing, mountain biking ..... sooner or later you'll get hurt. It sure beats sitting around letting life pass you by.
High Life
03-10-2009, 19:03
haha oops here's the pic
thats most likely a juvenile black rat snake
ColdFire
03-10-2009, 20:30
Cool thank you guys :) I saw it this last Sunday on the Pine Mountain Trail in Georgia.
Oops typo, I ment Black Rat... BUT if you were in GA it could be an intergrade (hybrid) with a Gray Rat. The black rats are normally not as dark when you get down to GA.
emerald thanks, I did click on it before but I don't think I was singed in cause it was not giving me the subscribe option. Subscribed now!
wrongway_08, listen it sounds like you are thrill seeking, not that I have not done it myself, this was done when I was a child but I soon grew out of it for respect to the snakes, your comparison to car racing is a good one. Most drivers usually crash at some point, as do people holding snakes they do get bitten at some point. Trying to pin a Cottonmouth is not the best idea. :eek: Cottonmouths are in the family Agkistrodon as are Copperheads. All these snakes hate to be pined down or restrained. When you do this they will thrash around like mad. This is how people are bitten by them, they think they have the snake then the snake has them. If a Cottonmouth bites you it will probably not kill you but you will be in a lot of pain and may loose some fingers. Aside from you getting hurt, the snake risks getting hurt also, when they thrash around they have been known to break their own necks. So even if you don't get bitten you are risking the snakes life. Instead of grabbing them maybe try to take some pictures and enjoy them that way. ;) I have found thousands of snakes and never have I been chased by any of them. This being said, water snakes and sometimes Cottonmouths will come over to check you out when you are in the water. Weather you are swimming of paddling a boat they might come over to you. This is due to a feeding response when they hear splashing they think it is fish that has come to the surface to die or a frog jumping around. Anytime I have seen Cottonmouths on dry land they either lay still hoping you don't see them, go into the water for a quick escape if they can or they throw themselves into tight coil and gape their mouths wide open showing their fangs. I hate when people are bitten by snakes it is a loose loose situation for the snake, they are normally killed and these bites almost always make the local news and papers making the snakes look much more harmful than they are. :(
Good Luck and don't get bitten! :cool:
Been hit by two cotton's in FL,just got sick..way overrated.
Pollyanna
03-14-2009, 08:15
Hi, I've enjoyed reading this thread. I sense a real respect for nature from the posters here, even amongst those who are creeped out by scaly creatures.
Just wanted to address a couple of questions:
Eastern cottonmouths are snakes of the southern lowlands. They most definitely do NOT occur anywhere on the Appalachian Trail, nor, as someone else suggested, anywhere near the Shenandoah National Park. So, one less venomous snake for AT hikers to worry about. ;)
And remember, many harmless snakes vibrate their tails when they feel threatened, and when this happens in dry leaves, it can easily be mistaken by a nervous human for the sound of a rattler rattling. Learn to recognize copperheads and timber rattlesnakes and you'll be all sorted for the two species of snakes you should give a wide berth to while on the AT.
ColdFire, it's always hard to judge size from a photo. Was that animal maybe four to five feet? It looks like an adult to me. If so, it's not a black rat snake. But it is definitely some sort of rat snake, Elaphe obsoleta. Could be a grey rat snake or a mix of grey x black. What looks like a partial lateral line suggests to me that there might be some yellow rat snake in the mix. But black, grey and yellow rat snakes - they're all the same species. And they are all known to intergrade where their ranges overlap.
If you see one on the trail simply walk around it, no need to turn back or re-rout you trip. ;) Snakes are NOT going to go towards you unless that is the only way for them to get away. Don't throw stuff at them just walk around them.
In fairness, Nature Walk did point out that they were in a spot where going around was not a realistic option.
I don't know whether we were presented with a troll, a hypothetical situation, a real situation where it seemed there were no other alternatives or there actually were no other alternatives. I find it difficult to envision a situation where there were no other alternatives and I think many here accept the excuses provided by others too readily.
People who are impatient or find themselves faced with what seems like a threatening situation may not take the time to carefully consider their full range of options. Since it was stated the snake did leave the treadway, might not using a stick to gently prod it have accomplished the desired outcome without putting the snake at risk of injury? We are talking about a species of concern.
The A.T. is home to many species of concern and may be where some make their final stand. Some of the most precious things are surrendered little by little without anyone knowing until it's too late to do anything other than watch as the last of its kind passes from the Earth never to be seen again.
wrongway_08
03-24-2009, 21:56
Also, lots of snakes sit on/by the trail because mice and other feeder animals follow the messy hiker food crumbs.
Best thing to do is just walk around or gentle push away with a stick. They dont care about you... they just want to eat.
Also remember, the next sloppiest are is at shelters, keep an eye out for snakes around them. Most of the time, you wont even know they are there.
In fairness, Nature Walk did point out that they were in a spot where going around was not a realistic option.
Realistic Option VS Realistic Situation :-?
Well I was not ready to argue and am still not. I was not there and do not know Nature Walk so will not say it could not happen. But as emerald stated "I find it difficult to envision a situation were there were no other alternatives" I should say that if there is a snake on a trail they will often take off when they see you coming. Or if they are sitting there they may think if they stay still you wont be able to see them. Or they might be sleeping. If you were in a situation like Nature Walk described (I guess it could happen but very unlikely) you could like wrongway_08 said "push away with a stick" but in some states you could get arrested for this as it would be considered harassment. (the arrest could happen but very unlikely). If you poke them with a stick they will probably start to rattle and they rattle shows that they are in a defensive posture. They will normally not retreat until you are gone. Reminds me of an essay/poem by Benjamin Franklin if you care to read I will include here...
"I recollected that her eye excelled in brightness, that of any other animal, and that she has no eye-lids—She may therefore be esteemed an emblem of vigilance.—She never begins an attack, nor, when once engaged, ever surrenders: She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity and true courage.—As if anxious to prevent all pretentions of quarrelling with her, the weapons with which nature has furnished her, she conceals in the roof of her mouth, so that, to those who are unacquainted with her, she appears to be a most defenceless animal; and even when those weapons are shewn and extended for her defence, they appear weak and contemptible; but their wounds however small, are decisive and fatal:—Conscious of this, she never wounds till she has generously given notice, even to her enemy, and cautioned him against the danger of treading on her.—Was I wrong, Sir, in thinking this a strong picture of the temper and conduct of America?"
In my previous post I wrote "they see you coming." Well, actually they will probably feel you coming. Although they can see they will probalby feel the vibration first.
Do you believe stomping on the ground might rouse a sleeping snake and cause it to move away from someone or would it too provoke a defensive posture?
Another idea might be to take a break and see what develops. Maybe it would be a good time to write 2 notes, post the 1st and see if the snake is still there when you return. I would think it a good idea to date those notes. That way they might be removed when they're no longer required.
WritinginCT
03-25-2009, 01:48
Here's my dumb snake question for the day- are there particular times of the year where copperheads are more aggressive then others? For example, during mating or egg laying cycles.
Side note... I just posted a TON of pictures. This will help others ID snakes on the trail when they see them. Please feel free to contact me anytime though.
emerald, stomping your feet could work just fine. Snakes have different personalities but they should scare them maybe not. Would not come and attack you though haha:D
WrittinginCT no dumb questions just dumb answers... Great question!
I would say no. This is a topic that has not been studied much. I would say if a snake was ready to shed it skin. (eyes get cloudy before they shed) They might not see that well and be a bit more defensive. As for breeding, males are more aggressive toward other male snakes. I dont think anyone has shown (could be wrong) that they will defend their young against humans. I commonly see Rattlesnakes with babies all over the place, on the mom, around the mom, during the fall (Sept/Oct) in New England. They would not come after you in anyway though. :eek:
You can see rattlesnake babies in some of the pics I just uploaded.:banana
WritinginCT
03-25-2009, 03:25
Okay I've managed to totally creep myself out but I looked through your entire gallery Herpn- absolute gorgeous shots. Dare I ask how many of them were taken in CT? (I think I may need to move farther north- wayyy farther north lol)
It's interesting how snakes seem to be communal but not familial.
I have to share- as I was looking through your gallery my boxer was laying next to my feet on her blanket. She must have shifted or something and the edge of the blanket lightly brushed my bare foot - talk about jumping three feet high and expecting to see something slithering under the desk. :eek:
Thanks for the compliments! :)I will proudly admit that every snake is those pics was from CT. Funny story. I am not afraid snakes but will share this (first time telling anyone) I was looking at a group of rattlesnakes last summer, 2 were rattling (I try not to get too close and bother them) all of a sudden I felt a vibration shoot up or down my leg. I was like :eek: am I standing on one. I was worried about hurting the snake (and getting bitten) then I felt my pocket and low and behold it was my cell phone that I had put on VIBRATE! I was getting a call. :o
Just posted more pics again..
Cheers,
Chuck
www.HerpetologicalSurveys.com (http://www.herpetologicalsurveys.com/)
Copperheads (http://www.fish.state.pa.us/copprhe.htm) don't lay eggs, nor do rattlesnakes.
Gray Blazer
03-25-2009, 14:34
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=32147&catid=member&imageuser=6217
This guy had lots of friends. He was near the Rice Creek Hilton on the FT a week ago. I believe he was a moccasin.
Near Payne's Prarie in FL is Wacahoota. I used to live out there and it is definitely a wildlife corridor (bald eagles, panthers, wildcats, etc.) One time I was driving home on 320 and I saw what I thought was a house cat sticking it's head out of the tall grass on the side of the road. When I passed and looked in the rear view mirror a snake (rattler) was crosssing the road. His lenghth was the entire width of the road and his body was fatter than some people I know!! I would hate to run into him out in the woods.
Herpn, those are some great pics. Thanks for posting.
I'm not pulling you guyses leg. That snake was huge!!
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=32147&catid=member&imageuser=6217
This guy had lots of friends. He was near the Rice Creek Hilton on the FT a week ago. I believe he was a moccasin.
Near Payne's Prarie in FL is Wacahoota. I used to live out there and it is definitely a wildlife corridor (bald eagles, panthers, wildcats, etc.) One time I was driving home on 320 and I saw what I thought was a house cat sticking it's head out of the tall grass on the side of the road. When I passed and looked in the rear view mirror a snake (rattler) was crosssing the road. His lenghth was the entire width of the road and his body was fatter than some people I know!! I would hate to run into him out in the woods.
Herpn, those are some great pics. Thanks for posting.
I'm not pulling you guyses leg. That snake was huge!!
Thanks.
Nice cottonmouth!
wrongway_08
03-31-2009, 17:16
Great photos! What camera?