View Full Version : Gear Replacement
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 00:08
I want to share something with you guys.
I was recently helping out in a friend's gear store.
A thru-hiker came in, and showed me a pretty beat-up looking Platypus, and said (and I quote). "This is leaking. Can you do anything for me?"
I was pretty much taken aback.....I had no idea what they expected, so I said "Well, what did you have in mind?"
He said "Can you give me a replacement?"
Well to keep this brief, I told him no. First off, we didn't have that bag in stock or anything like it. Secondly, while Platypus at one time supplied some stores with free replacement bags for swap-outs, they either don't do this anymore, or in any case, we didn't have any to give. I politely told the guy that we were not in a position to swap out or simply replace his bag, and I suggested he get in touch with the Platypus people.
He left, looking none too pleased.
Moral of story: Starting a conversation with a "What are you gonna do for me?" attitude is probably not the most effective way to get help. Secondly, a store is under no obligation to simply take something off their wall and hand it to you because you've broken your original item. Customers with a problem should approach either the store where they bought the item,or they should contact the company that manufactured it. Now I know contacting the original store is not always possible. But when something falls apart on the Trail, it is NOT the responsibility of the store to simply hand you whatever you want. Your beef is with the individual company, and that's why they have Customer Service Departments, and, in most cases, toll free numbers. Stores will very often work with a customer AFTER a company's customer service or warranty/repair people have been consulted, and will generally do their very best to help the customer, but simply going into a store with a destroyed piece of gear, asking "What can you do for me?", and obviously expecting to get something right off the wall for free is NOT the way to go.
(I could add that what thru-hikers do to their gear after just a few months, never mind six, goes WAY BEYOND the "normal wear and tear" phrasing that is found on nearly all gear warranties, but I'll save that for another post).
Would be curious to hear some thoughts or opinions on this.
max patch
06-25-2008, 00:13
You are absolutely 100% correct and I can't imagine anyone with half a brain disagreeing with any of your conclusions.
_terrapin_
06-25-2008, 00:26
You are absolutely 100% correct and I can't imagine anyone with half a brain disagreeing with any of your conclusions.
Well, that's certainly a way to encourage an enlightened, free-flowing airing of diverse viewpoints, eh? ;)
Odd Thomas
06-25-2008, 00:34
I want to share something with you guys.
I was recently helping out in a friend's gear store.
A thru-hiker came in, and showed me a pretty beat-up looking Platypus, and said (and I quote). "This is leaking. Can you do anything for me?"
I was pretty much taken aback.....I had no idea what they expected, so I said "Well, what did you have in mind?"
He said "Can you give me a replacement?"
Well to keep this brief, I told him no. First off, we didn't have that bag in stock or anything like it. Secondly, while Platypus at one time supplied some stores with free replacement bags for swap-outs, they either don't do this anymore, or in any case, we didn't have any to give. I politely told the guy that we were not in a position to swap out or simply replace his bag, and I suggested he get in touch with the Platypus people.
He left, looking none too pleased.
Did he buy this at a chain store in your chain, or somewhere unrelated to that store?
Moral of story: Starting a conversation with a "What are you gonna do for me?" attitude is probably not the most effective way to get help. Secondly, a store is under no obligation to simply take something off their wall and hand it to you because you've broken your original item. Customers with a problem should approach either the store where they bought the item,or they should contact the company that manufactured it. Now I know contacting the original store is not always possible. But when something falls apart on the Trail, it is NOT the responsibility of the store to simply hand you whatever you want. Your beef is with the individual company, and that's why they have Customer Service Departments, and, in most cases, toll free numbers. Stores will very often work with a customer AFTER a company's customer service or warranty/repair people have been consulted, and will generally do their very best to help the customer, but simply going into a store with a destroyed piece of gear, asking "What can you do for me?", and obviously expecting to get something right off the wall for free is NOT the way to go.
(I could add that what thru-hikers do to their gear after just a few months, never mind six, goes WAY BEYOND the "normal wear and tear" phrasing that is found on nearly all gear warranties, but I'll save that for another post).
Would be curious to hear some thoughts or opinions on this.
If I buy something at a retail store, I expect the store itself or any of it's branches to handle warranty issues, contacting the manufacturer for me and RMA'ing merchandise as necessary. That's the service you pay for in buying retail instead of wholesale.
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 00:40
The store in question is independent, has no branches, and is not part of a chain.
And the item was not originally purchased at this store.
I would have been glad to have called the company's customer service department if the customer wanted; however, they left before I had the chance to make the offer. :rolleyes:
Well, that's certainly a way to encourage an enlightened, free-flowing airing of diverse viewpoints, eh? ;)
Um, Terrapin, if you have a viewpoint, please share. Dissing someone else's point is worse than not having one at all. :)
Jack, way to go!
Odd Thomas
06-25-2008, 00:43
The store in question is independent, has no branches, and is not part of a chain.:rolleyes:
Then screw him he should have bought it there then :p
_terrapin_
06-25-2008, 00:43
Um, Terrapin, if you have a viewpoint, please share. Dissing someone else's point is worse than not having one at all. :)
Umm, Tin Man, read max's post again and tell me who's doin' the dissin'. :rolleyes:
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 00:47
I read Max's post, Terrapin, and I think you're both dissin'. :rolleyes:
If you have an opinion on the original post, by all means share it.
If all you're gonna do here is complain about Max, please do it somewhere else.
Well, that's certainly a way to encourage an enlightened, free-flowing airing of diverse viewpoints, eh? ;)I'm certainly game, don't concern yourself with the previous posts, let us know about your alternative view. Don't let mr patch scare you. He's just being contrary.
john gault
06-25-2008, 00:54
I had this happen to me on this last hike. A very small hole appeared on my platypus, would never of noticed if the water wasn't leaking out. I believe my "toothpick" poked the hole (It's metal - looks like one of those sharp tools on the dentist chair). Was able to fix the leak using my tent repair kit, that stuff is better than duct tape.
Odd Thomas
06-25-2008, 00:54
I'm certainly game, don't concern yourself with the previous posts, let us know about your alternative view. Don't let mr patch scare you. He's just being contrary.
no he isnt.
_terrapin_
06-25-2008, 00:55
I'm certainly game, don't concern yourself with the previous posts, let us know about your alternative view. Don't let mr patch scare you. He's just being contrary.
It did occur to me that max might have been in sarcasm mode.
Reading some of the "product complaint threads" lately, I didn't realize I was letting the mfgs and stores off so easy. From now on, I pledge to:
1) Turn in used gear for new gear after every wear or tear.
2) Turn in non-fitting gear only after I am really sure it doesn't fit, say after a few hundred miles.
3) Whine loudly and often about poor customer service because no one answered my email.
4) Avoid calling the 800 number, because I really don't have a legitimate complaint.
:rolleyes:
Umm, Tin Man, read max's post again and tell me who's doin' the dissin'. :rolleyes:
He wasn't dissin' anybody with half a brain. Just supporting Jack's post. ;)
Personal story: I was in Hot Springs in April 2003. Outfitter had a customer (thru hiker) who was VERY upset about her pack. Not purchased there, but the manufacturer's packs were sold there. Her pack was rated for 30lbs or less. She (admitted) obviously exceeded that on a regular basis. Her reason for being upset? She had been "told" that the weight limit was a suggestion and that the pack could handle more. After the outfitter's employee explained her limited options, she decided to vent her frustrations to the store's patrons and anyone on the sidewalk who had ears. Real classy. She had a pack with failed shoulder straps that needed repair because of excessive stress. The Hot Springs folks cannot simply give inventory away with that scenario in the hopes of being compensated by the manufacturer. Any alternative they proposed was met with hostility and attitude. This all transpired inside a thirty minute time frame in full display of all customers. Unfortunate.
Personal story: I was in Hot Springs in April 2003. Outfitter had a customer (thru hiker) who was VERY upset about her pack. Not purchased there, but the manufacturer's packs were sold there. Her pack was rated for 30lbs or less. She (admitted) obviously exceeded that on a regular basis. Her reason for being upset? She had been "told" that the weight limit was a suggestion and that the pack could handle more. After the outfitter's employee explained her limited options, she decided to vent her frustrations to the store's patrons and anyone on the sidewalk who had ears. Real classy. She had a pack with failed shoulder straps that needed repair because of excessive stress. The Hot Springs folks cannot simply give inventory away with that scenario in the hopes of being compensated by the manufacturer. Any alternative they proposed was met with hostility and attitude. This all transpired inside a thirty minute time frame in full display of all customers. Unfortunate.
Hmm, I wonder if some peeps accustomed to getting quick, no-questions asked replacements from big box stores, expect every store, regardless of size, to provide the same service. :-?
Odd Thomas
06-25-2008, 01:19
Hmm, I wonder if some peeps accustomed to getting quick, no-questions asked replacements from big box stores, expect every store, regardless of size, to provide the same service. :-?
Retail is retail. The problem here is people expect retail service from stores they have done no business with.
Bearpaw88
06-25-2008, 01:19
Platy seem to fail often. I had a hole in my first one by Neels Gap. As to the guy who demanded "What can you do for me?" seems to be some hikers only means of expression.
I also a leak in my Big Agnes. Most Outfitters I went to would have been happy to replace it if they carried it because they can send it back to the company for credit. The chances an Outfitter will have the piece equipment that broke and will be able to get credit for it seem slim. If you're equipment breaks try a new brand. I noticed the items that failed the most on trail the trail outfitters don't carry anyway because they know it is not the greatest item.
no he isnt.
It did occur to me that max might have been in sarcasm mode. That was my original thought. I crafted my post to speak directly to terrapin. He knows what I was saying as much as he understands his post.;)
john gault
06-25-2008, 01:23
Platy seem to fail often. I had a hole in my first one by Neels Gap. As to the guy who demanded "What can you do for me?" seems to be some hikers only means of expression.
I also a leak in my Big Agnes. Most Outfitters I went to would have been happy to replace it if they carried it because they can send it back to the company for credit. The chances an Outfitter will have the piece equipment that broke and will be able to get credit for it seem slim. If you're equipment breaks try a new brand. I noticed the items that failed the most on trail the trail outfitters don't carry anyway because they know it is not the greatest item.
I wouldn't doubt it if a lot of failures are caused by the user and not substandard gear. Also, a lot of people have platys, so you got to look at per capita numbers, but of course none of us have that data.
Must be nice to operate an outfitter in the first hundred miles on the AT in Spring. Might suck to operate an outfitter 300+ miles northbound on the AT in early summer.:eek::D;)
_terrapin_
06-25-2008, 01:28
Rather than b*tch about lousy service, I'd rather relate stories of excellent service:
1. Grommets ripped out of pack straps on a Camp Trails pack. Replaced with a smile and no-questions-asked at the store at NOC.
2. A 12-year old $250 MountainSmith FrostFire pack, replaced for store credit ($100 or so) at REI. This was actually at the suggestion of a sales associate; I wouldn't have dreamed of doing that. Fact was, I'd used the pack on one outing, hated it, and it had sat on the shelf all those years.
3. Unbelievably fast delivery from Campmor, about 100% of the time.
4. At least 1/2 hour of cheerful one-on-one "product support" on the phone with George Andrews (Mr. AntiGravityGear.) And this was on a stove he had sent me gratis! This last item was so generous that it prompted a reciprocal hand-made gift to George. Nice Guy!
5. Outfitter at Troutville/Daleville -- the one next to Krogers. I needed a replacement filter element. They didn't have one, but they took a filter out of a new unit for me. Gave me a small "thru-hiker discount" without my having asked for such. Thanks!
Bearpaw88
06-25-2008, 01:30
I wouldn't doubt it if a lot of failures are caused by the user and not substandard gear. Also, a lot of people have platys, so you got to look at per capita numbers, but of course none of us have that data.
I don't think Platy's are substandard, nor any other gear mentioned, but I have come to think Platy's are not right as sole hydration systems on the A.T. Using them for collecting water when you get to camp seems a better use for them. Some equipment just doesn't seem to hold up on the A.T. Then again it has to be fantastic equipment in the first place if it does hold up to 180 days of constant use.
I am sure many if not most failures are cause by hiker negligence as well.
Rather than b*tch about lousy service, I'd rather relate stories of excellent service:
1. Grommets ripped out of pack straps on a Camp Trails pack. Replaced with a smile and no-questions-asked at the store at NOC.
2. A 12-year old $250 MountainSmith FrostFire pack, replaced for store credit ($100 or so) at REI. This was actually at the suggestion of a sales associate; I wouldn't have dreamed of doing that. Fact was, I'd used the pack on one outing, hated it, and it had sat on the shelf all those years.
3. Unbelievably fast delivery from Campmor, about 100% of the time.
4. At least 1/2 hour of cheerful one-on-one "product support" on the phone with George Andrews (Mr. AntiGravityGear.) And this was on a stove he had sent me gratis! This last item was so generous that it prompted a reciprocal hand-made gift to George. Nice Guy!
5. Outfitter at Troutville/Daleville -- the one next to Krogers. I needed a replacement filter element. They didn't have one, but they took a filter out of a new unit for me. Gave me a small "thru-hiker discount" without my having asked for such. Thanks!Exactly! Great experiences and service should be focused on. Negative experiences should also be shared, but make sure that all avenues have been exhausted before expressing condemnation. Fair enough?
_terrapin_
06-25-2008, 01:42
I had no problems with my Platy last summer. It was my first-ever experience with "hydration systems" of any kind and I was nervous about it. I'm wondering if I should replace it out of principle for this year's hike or keep using it. I guess I have a few weeks more to decide...
I had a Gatorade bottle crack on me after a season of using it for a water bottle, should I walk into the local Kroger store and demand a replacement? After all Kroger sold me the bottle.
john gault
06-25-2008, 01:51
Rather than b*tch about lousy service, I'd rather relate stories of excellent service:...
blah
blah
blah...
I'd rather read about the b*tchy a**holes.
I work for REI, and I suspect that some of the attitude of "Replace my stuff now" may originate there. Jack, if the chain is breeding this attitude, I truly apologize.
Our store takes in a LOT of returns, occasionally of a questionable nature, but since our return policy is based on a 100% Satisfaction policy, we generally eat the questionable returns.
But guess what. The massive majority of our returns are perfectly legitimate. A healthy chunk of those returns give back some store income at "scratch and dent" sales. Returns account for about 1% of our purchases. What does this mean? About 1% of our purchases get returned, and this is with the most liberal return policy in the industry. So the massive majority of our customers do not take advantage of the system which supplies over 70 retail stores and a huge online business. BTW, the great majority of profit for REI comes from clothing, which is only very rarely returned, and then it is usually because it doesn't fit and it can be rehung and sold new.
Now flash to the AT corridor. Mom and pop outfitters are the norm and these folks struggle in the "off-season" I would guess. They certainly can't afford the volume of returns even 1% would likely entail as profits are minimal to begin with.
Jack, for you to be diplomatic enough to consider contacting Platy over a $12 bladder says great things about your dilligence and composure. I was a thru-hiker, and I entered the endeavor with a sense of self-reliance, not self-entitlement. I have to admit, I would be sorely tested to be very receptive to a customer even at REI who came in with such a complaint. Bladders leak eventually, especially after the 1000 miles to Harper's Ferry.
Keep on helping those customers who have legitimate needs with your knowledge, expertise, and enthusiam.
sholder10
06-25-2008, 03:14
While I agree that coming in with the attitude 'What Can You Do to Help Me,' will generally get you nowhere, whether in an outfitter or any other establishment, I think that companies should and do give certain leeway to thru-hikers. Thru-hikers are companies' best advertisements, and good customer service is the best way to promote positive word of mouth chatter. I had a lot of luck on my thru getting new equipment free of charge by being courteous and friendly, and sometimes, actually following the rules and calling the 800 numbers.
Moral: Don't be a jerk, and gear will come to you.
fiddlehead
06-25-2008, 06:48
I've called the manufacturer numerous times over the years to replace gear i wore out. I've had shoes break down after only a hundred miles or so, My first set of "superfeet" wore out in a few hundred miles, a zipper broke on my Gregory pack, etc.
Every time that i've called the manufacturer for the above problems, they have either sent me a new one or asked me to send it back to repair it. I never had one say no.
Once i even sent LL bean back a pair of pants that i wore for 2 years because both zippers (on pockets) broke. I told them i didn't have any problem with the pants, just the zippers and told them they should just make them without the zippers. They replied that they are guaranteed for life and they sent me a new pair of pants.
But, going to a store and bitchin at the folks there won't do any good. It's not their fault. People just have to be enlightened to the fact that it's the manufacturer you need to call, not another store.
NICKTHEGREEK
06-25-2008, 07:18
A thru-hiker came in, and showed me a pretty beat-up looking Platypus, and said (and I quote). "This is leaking. Can you do anything for me?"
One standard retailer's answer, "Sure, we give EVERYONE with this problem 10% off on a new replacement Platybut since you look like a real thru-hiker I'll give you 15%".
That's a pretty cool standard answer!
Jack, apart from looking unhappy, what did this poor misguided soul say when you sent him on his way?
A thru-hiker came in, and showed me a pretty beat-up looking Platypus, and said (and I quote). "This is leaking. Can you do anything for me?"
One standard retailer's answer, "Sure, we give EVERYONE with this problem 10% off on a new replacement Platybut since you look like a real thru-hiker I'll give you 15%".
Seems fair. Any complaints?
Lone Wolf
06-25-2008, 07:29
Seems fair. Any complaints?
yeah. why should a hiker get a percentage off anything and what the hell does a "real' thru-hiker look like?
Probably because the retailer figured that approach would at least allow for a gross profit on a new sale, and that strategy might lead to additional purchases?
Even if he didn't put it aside to return to the supplier.
Odd Thomas
06-25-2008, 07:40
yeah. why should a hiker get a percentage off anything and what the hell does a "real' thru-hiker look like?
read "You smell. I want you out of my store ASAP" :p
Rather than b*tch about lousy service, I'd rather relate stories of excellent service:
1. Grommets ripped out of pack straps on a Camp Trails pack. Replaced with a smile and no-questions-asked at the store at NOC.
2. A 12-year old $250 MountainSmith FrostFire pack, replaced for store credit ($100 or so) at REI. This was actually at the suggestion of a sales associate; I wouldn't have dreamed of doing that. Fact was, I'd used the pack on one outing, hated it, and it had sat on the shelf all those years.
3. Unbelievably fast delivery from Campmor, about 100% of the time.
4. At least 1/2 hour of cheerful one-on-one "product support" on the phone with George Andrews (Mr. AntiGravityGear.) And this was on a stove he had sent me gratis! This last item was so generous that it prompted a reciprocal hand-made gift to George. Nice Guy!
5. Outfitter at Troutville/Daleville -- the one next to Krogers. I needed a replacement filter element. They didn't have one, but they took a filter out of a new unit for me. Gave me a small "thru-hiker discount" without my having asked for such. Thanks!
Nice post. Campmor also has a great return policy. They replaced a broken fiberglass tent pole with a completly new set of poles for entire tent.
I used another online store, can't recall the name at the moment, that including a return shipping label, shipping paid by them, with instructions to save the box and return any item in 60 days, no questions asked. Thought that was pretty cool.
max patch
06-25-2008, 08:34
He wasn't dissin' anybody with half a brain. Just supporting Jack's post. ;)
I thot it was pretty clear that I meant it when I said that Jack was 100% correct. Apparently not.
I thot it was pretty clear that I meant it when I said that Jack was 100% correct. Apparently not.
No worries. It was clear to folks...with half a brain. :D
Jason of the Woods
06-25-2008, 09:03
You are absolutely 100% correct and I can't imagine anyone with half a brain disagreeing with any of your conclusions.
Yeah, Jack is always right. He is so smart.:banana
Yeah, Jack is always right. He is so smart.:banana
Yep, and you are a tool. :banana
sherrill
06-25-2008, 09:25
This thread reminded me of a conversation I had with a couple of REI Adventures guides in Alaska in 2005.
They told me a story of a hiker that returned a beat up, 12 yo pair of boots to the store in Anchorage. The folks in the store traded him out with a new pair, no questions asked.
The conversation turned to the ethics of what the guy did and whether or not it was abusing the policy. We agreed we thought what the guy did was excessive but complimented REI (and the Anchorage store) on their customer service.
I purchased a Bear Vault 500 at the REI in Brentwood at their used gear sale. Cost me $20. The return slip said they couldn't get the lid off easily. Twas a load of BS. The lid came off just fine. Someone obviously bought the canister, used it for their hike, and returned it for a full refund.
Bought an LL Bean jungle hammock in the early 90s. It was poorly constructed, and after about 4 years, I decided to send it back after a friend who was an engineer (and made his own hammocks) convinced me it was a flawed design. I mailed back a copy of my credit card bill with a $150 charge, along with a detailed critique of the product. I explained that the hammock cost about $115, and I had purchased an additional $35 in gear that I was pleased with. I asked them to research the price, and refund me the approximately $115 it cost me. To my astonishment, they sent me a check for the full $150.
outsidethebox
06-25-2008, 09:52
Amazing! In this thread, the "Donating Members" have taken the retail position against the hikers. Everyone has an agenda. I can understand why the platypus could not be replaced, but why not offer the guy some cheap or even free alternatives. He had a problem and the store had an opportunity.
Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?
Home Fires
06-25-2008, 09:58
I used another online store, can't recall the name at the moment, that including a return shipping label, shipping paid by them, with instructions to save the box and return any item in 60 days, no questions asked. Thought that was pretty cool.
Sierra Trading Post? I just ordered a couple of small daypacks for my daughters and I'm pretty sure there was a return label in the box.
Odd Thomas
06-25-2008, 10:06
Amazing! In this thread, the "Donating Members" have taken the retail position against the hikers. Everyone has an agenda. I can understand why the platypus could not be replaced, but why not offer the guy some cheap or even free alternatives. He had a problem and the store had an opportunity.
Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?
A retailer has absolutely zero obligation to deal with service associated with products purchased from a competing retailer. It cost money to RMA merchandise, and retailers have their own RMA'd merchandise overhead to worry about.
This store had nothing to do with the sale. Why would it be reasonable to expect this store to spend money handling a return for a competitor?
If it were a chain it'd be different, but these are unrelated stores.
RedneckRye
06-25-2008, 10:16
Amazing! In this thread, the "Donating Members" have taken the retail position against the hikers. Everyone has an agenda. I can understand why the platypus could not be replaced, but why not offer the guy some cheap or even free alternatives. He had a problem and the store had an opportunity.
Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?
The cheap or free alternative for a leaking platy isn't replacement, it is Seam Grip or Shoe Goo or Super Glue or something similar, usually available for free in the depths of just about every hiker box on the planet.
Just about any gear can be fixed with that, some dental floss and a needle, duct tape, or a little common sense. Also, this usually takes far less time and effort than walking to the nearest outfitter and asking them to "take care of it".
outsidethebox
06-25-2008, 10:23
The point is, retailers seem to have forgotten about the "Golden Rule". Remember that one? There is no obligation to replace gear bought elsewhere, but the merchant should never loose sight of a customers' need. Maybe the poor bastard from the trail was grumpy - he was really wound up in a problem. Why not find another way to help him? Happy customers are good for business.
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 10:42
Um, I tried to help him.
My help wasn't good enough.
He wanted something for free and he wasn't about to get it.
His version of the Golden Rule was along the lines of "Screw unto others and gimme what I want cuz I'm special."
Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.
As to "losing sight of the customer's need," um, no, that didn't happen, either.
His "need" was that he wanted and fully expected totally free stuff, despite being politely told it didn't work that way. We never "lost sight" of that "need" as the customer made it very clear what he expected.
His only surprise was that he didn't get it.
outsidethebox
06-25-2008, 10:50
What did your friend who owned the store think of the exchange?
And for the sake of reference, good or bad, what is the name of the store?
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 10:57
The store is the Outfitter at Harpers Ferry, which has been in operation just off the Trail for around 12 years.
It has one of the best reputations of any store on the Trail.
My friend had no comment whatsoever.
I should add one personal comment: I've used the same waterbag for over a decade and never had a problem with it. I can't recall ever seeing anyone complaining about a busted MSR Dromedary. Maybe that's cuz they don't break.
Seems to me that an awful lot of gear problems might be avoided if people bought better gear. But when someone spends the minimum amount of money on gear, for the sole purpose of saving a few bucks, well it might occur to them that this gear won't last them the rest of their lives......and maybe not six months, either.
john gault
06-25-2008, 11:05
The point is, retailers seem to have forgotten about the "Golden Rule". Remember that one? There is no obligation to replace gear bought elsewhere, but the merchant should never loose sight of a customers' need. Maybe the poor bastard from the trail was grumpy - he was really wound up in a problem. Why not find another way to help him? Happy customers are good for business.
So the "Golden Rule" does not apply to hikers, just retailers?
4eyedbuzzard
06-25-2008, 11:08
Amazing! In this thread, the "Donating Members" have taken the retail position against the hikers. Everyone has an agenda. I can understand why the platypus could not be replaced, but why not . He had a problem and the store had an opportunity.offer the guy some cheap or even free alternatives
Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?
I don't think there is an agenda, nor do I think there is a donating member conspiracy of any sort.
As to the rest: The idea behind running a store is to sell stuff for more than you pay for it to make a profit, not offer stuff cheap at zero margin or give stuff away for free just to make people happy.
Do you think if this hiker owned a car parts store in some other town he would give the store owner a new headlight for free because the owner's last headlight he bought somewhere else was bad out the box? So much for the applicability of the Golden Rule in such a situation.
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 11:08
It is my considered opinion that anyone who ever said that "The customer is always right!" never worked in a retail business, or in one that involved interaction with customers. Oddly enough, if you've done either of those, one tends to develop a different philosophy. :rolleyes:
Alligator
06-25-2008, 11:09
I think a lot of knee problems can be avoided by purchasing lighter gear;).
Lone Wolf
06-25-2008, 11:10
Maybe the poor bastard from the trail was grumpy - he was really wound up in a problem. Why not find another way to help him? Happy customers are good for business.
most hikers wanting stuff are grumpy bastards. hang out at an outfitter during prime season on the trail. they're always wanting free stuff.
john gault
06-25-2008, 11:11
It is my considered opinion that anyone who ever said that "The customer is always right!" never worked in a retail business, or in one that involved interaction with customers. Oddly enough, if you've done either of those, one tends to develop a different philosophy. :rolleyes:
I think it was a philosophy that worked at one time, but it became too well known and it gave to consumer too much power. What's the saying: "Power corrupts"
4eyedbuzzard
06-25-2008, 11:12
Most hikers are cheap bastards as well. Sometimes that's a compliment. Other times not.
Time To Fly 97
06-25-2008, 11:24
I think most of this has to do with attitude. If my gear broke and I thought there was evena remote chance that an outfitter could help, I would pay a visit and at least ask in a polite, respectful way if they could do anything. If they said no, then aside from asking advice on where to turn next, then that would be the end of it. It never hurts to ask and some retail stores will take things back. I usually try to be honorable about returns - if I abused the gear and it broke, so be it.
A good experience: TNF Kichatna shell exchanged for Fountain Head when the seam tape came loose. Good stuff!
Happy hiking!
TTF
moral of the story by eliminating complexity of personality and so spelling out the issues arising: if you don`t have 12$ to buy yourself a new platypus... get a job you lazy bum.( "Bum", a slang term for a hobo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo) (though unlike hobos, a bum is unlikely to seek work)
Odd Thomas
06-25-2008, 11:39
The point is, retailers seem to have forgotten about the "Golden Rule". Remember that one? There is no obligation to replace gear bought elsewhere, but the merchant should never loose sight of a customers' need.
He didn't buy anything, he's not a customer! He wasn't even looking to buy anything! He just wanted the store, whom he was not a customer of, and had never done business with, to spend time and money handling product returns for some other store that actually made money off a sale.
:p
Other side of the coin:
I have bought several types of socks at bricks and mortar. "Guaranteed for life. Take them back to any dealer. At any time."
1L Platy. Different store. Same verbal statement in diferent words.
I cannot imagine returning beat to snot socks, and I can get pretty firm when I feel I have been ill-served. I got six bucks worth out of that Platy.
Some nitwit may have been fed a line of marketing, and believed it...
(If I don't wear out socks, I can't eat...)
I would enjoy ditching a 4L big zip, it is a pos.
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 11:51
In the interest of fairness, Thomas, these folks had purchased other stuff at the store on another occasion, and the person's partner actually made some purchases the same day as the Platty incident.
So to say they weren't customers of the store and had never been, well that isn't true.
And while it's true that stores tend to be more appreciative of folks who actually spend money as opposed to those who don't, it doesn't alter the fact that a hiker with busted gear needs to go to the manufacturer first. Just cuz I've shopped at a particular place nine times doesn't mean that on my tenth visit I get to take something off the wall and stroll out the door. :rolleyes:
JACK!?!?! My bottle of RUM is leaking!!! "WHATTA GONNA DO FOR ME" !?!?!? :)
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 11:54
Not gonna do a thing.
Serves you right for deciding to drink RUM. :eek:
NICKTHEGREEK
06-25-2008, 11:56
yeah. why should a hiker get a percentage off anything and what the hell does a "real' thru-hiker look like?
Don't get too mired in the details Wolf. Retail is all about making 1) a sale, 2) a profit and 3) a customer happy.
You make more money selling someone something at a reduced profit than not at all.
A real through hiker looks like some sucker that will believe he looks like a real thru-hiker.
Time To Fly 97
06-25-2008, 11:57
I knew you'd say that. lol
Happy hiking!
TTF
Johnny Thunder
06-25-2008, 11:58
to quote PCU...
"It's like, if you're nice to them they'll bring you things?"
Appalachian Tater
06-25-2008, 11:58
Amazing! In this thread, the "Donating Members" have taken the retail position against the hikers. Your assessment that the "Donating Members" always take the same side of issues is quite astute. Give money and then visit the political forum and you'll see what I mean.
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 12:04
I'm a donating member, Tater.
So are FD, Hopeful, and Weary, just to name a few.
If you think we always take the same sides on the Political Forums, then I gotta wonder how carefully you've been reading them! :rolleyes:
sherrill
06-25-2008, 12:05
When the seam tape came apart in my wife's (many) years old Columbia jacket she hand wrote a letter and shipped it to them. She explained she had always carefully followed the cleaning instructions to the "T" and politely asked what her options were.
About three weeks later they shipped her a brand new (upgraded) jacket and included coupons to defray her shipping costs.
I thought that was cool so I always talk them up, like I am here.
outsidethebox
06-25-2008, 12:08
The "Golden Rule" applies to all. However, one is not excused from following it because someone else does not. As for the quote "The customer is always right", either Marshall Fields or Harry Selfridge said that. Both men were retail giants and made plenty of money in their lifetimes. The quote represents a contrasting point of view. When you start a business you better be prepared for whatever walks in the door and hopefully be clever enough to make something out of it. Happy customers are good for business.
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 12:14
You sound like an expert.
Do you now or have you ever run a Trailside business and had to deal with thru-hikers?
No?
Gee, somehow I didn't think so. :rolleyes:
And why do you keep parroting The Golden Rule? Seems to me, that rule said something about treating people the way YOU'D want to be treated. It didn't say anything about cadging stuff for free, guilt-tripping people, or taking advantage of them for one's own benefit.
I think you need to read that Rule again......
Appalachian Tater
06-25-2008, 12:15
I'm a donating member, Tater.
So are FD, Hopeful, and Weary, just to name a few.
If you think we always take the same sides on the Political Forums, then I gotta wonder how carefully you've been reading them! :rolleyes:Jack, being a "Donating Member" is a condition of joining the political forum. Sometimes one of those little upwards-looking, sideways-smiling "emoticons" just shouldn't be necessary. Like on my previous post.
Time To Fly 97
06-25-2008, 12:17
For example: IF I help you with your platypus situation, I need you to help me. As a thru-hiker, your say carries a lot of weight among other thru-hikers. I will need you to tell everyone (online and in registers) that our store helped you even though we didn't have to and that this is a great place to shop. This is very valuable advertising for me and I in turn will appreciate your help. Agreed?
Would this advertising generate more business than the cost of a Platypus bag? Kinda obvious. BUT...it comes down to the attitude of the hiker that is asking for help.
Happy hiking!
TTF
4eyedbuzzard
06-25-2008, 12:17
The "Golden Rule" applies to all...
Absolutely. And you should get what you pay for as well. And when someone comes into a store offering nothing, they should expect to get exactly what they pay for.
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 12:24
Um, Tater, I don't see a "Donating Member" tag under YOUR name. :rolleyes:
And you're on the political forums about nine times a day.
Maybe it's time you ponied up. :D
4eyedbuzzard
06-25-2008, 12:25
Would this advertising generate more business than the cost of a Platypus bag?...
If you spent your time and money taking care of every equipment problem thru-hikers have free of charge you wouldn't be in business very long.
Hiker 1: They replaced my platy for free!
Hiker 2: (in store). How come you won't replace my platy for free? You did it for Hiker 1. BTW, my stove has been giving me problems too...
Bystander: Wow, the line to get into that store is really long. You'd think they were giving stuff away.
Odd Thomas
06-25-2008, 12:27
If you spent your time and money taking care of every equipment problem thru-hikers have free of charge you wouldn't be in business very long.
Hiker 1: They replaced my platy for free!
Hiker 2: (in store). How come you won't replace my platy for free? You did it for Hiker 1. BTW, my stove has been giving me problems too...
Bystander: Wow, the line to get into that store is really long. You'd think they were giving stuff away.
Lol, meanwhile, the store he originally bought it from laughs all the way to the bank as all his returns and customer service is being handled by his competitors.:p
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 12:27
Buzzard just said a mouthful.
Anyone who's been around the Trail awhile knows that the Trailside outfitters will bend over backwards to help the long-distance hikers.
But they're not in business to give everything away for free.
It's really amazing how many hikers haven't grasped this.
Time To Fly 97
06-25-2008, 12:28
lol probably some truth to this.
Happy hiking!
TTF
The Old Fhart
06-25-2008, 12:30
I believe WalkinHome summed it up quite well when he said: "thru hikers aren't needy, they're wanty." ;)
LW... a "REAL" THRU-HIKER HAS a tailored fitted dress shirt, while sometimes wearing a tie! Also, the ever popular orange shovel hanging off thier pack still at mile 222, and domnt forget the GPS device with built in cd player!
Yes Jack.. expanding here... even at "hiker feeds".. Im still amazed how many hikers come & enjoy "free food"... with 5-15 items on teh menu.. STILL!?!? some are asking, well... cant i just get grilled veggies... a veggie taco, ect. Ahhh.. the Vegatarian hikers.. MY FAV! But... yes, so many bend over to help, and some hikers just dont get it... very bothersome... some are so polite.. some are just so ungrateful!
From the Outfitters to people like Ron Haven & Miss Janet early on in teh season... they give all... and still... some want more!?!?
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 12:51
Geez, some real interesting moderation going on here.
Someone asked if they need be concerned about credit card/identity theft on the Trail.
It was a perfectly legitimate question.
I told them this wasn't something they need to be overly concerned about, as it very rarely happens, and any place that deliberately did this likely wouldn't be around very long.
So what was so terrible and wrong about this post and why was it deleted?
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 12:54
Whoops. Cancel that, repeat, cancel that.
Wrong thread.
That's it for me, I'm obviously spending too much time here this morning!!
I either need more coffee or a lot less!
The Old Fhart
06-25-2008, 12:57
Jack, this post? (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=652722&postcount=63)?
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 12:59
Like I said, O.F., too much posting too quickly.
Think I'll shut this down and get some air. :D
4eyedbuzzard
06-25-2008, 13:00
A cold beer with lunch would be nice today.
Do what Mom said. Always says PLEASE and THANK YOU.
Makes life much easier for everyone...
outsidethebox
06-25-2008, 13:24
Jack, You sound flustered. Perhaps I've been too rough on ya.
Sorry bout that, I was hoping to raise the consideration above the almighty dollar.
I guess it's hard times all around.
You can quote me on this:
"My best customers are the ones I treat the nicest".
May we meet on the trail and not in the store.......
Appalachian Tater
06-25-2008, 13:27
Um, Tater, I don't see a "Donating Member" tag under YOUR name. :rolleyes:
And you're on the political forums about nine times a day.
Maybe it's time you ponied up. :DEveryone who is a donating member doesn't have the tag. The tag is the default but you can change it. The only time I ever wore an "I Gave" tag was for blood or voting.
Everyone in the political forum is a donating member, it's a prerequisite for joining.
Route 66
06-25-2008, 13:54
Does anyone realize that Platypus makes a "Platy Patch" and sells them in a six-pack which weighs less than 1/10 ounce?
See, for example, the $5.00 offering at http://www.rei.com/product/619859
Bearpaw88
06-25-2008, 13:57
I should add one personal comment: I've used the same waterbag for over a decade and never had a problem with it. I can't recall ever seeing anyone complaining about a busted MSR Dromedary. Maybe that's cuz they don't break.
Seems to me that an awful lot of gear problems might be avoided if people bought better gear. But when someone spends the minimum amount of money on gear, for the sole purpose of saving a few bucks, well it might occur to them that this gear won't last them the rest of their lives......and maybe not six months, either.
No kidding... I can't tell you how much crap gear I saw on trail this year. I understand wanting to save money, but in the majority of cases with backpacking gear you get what you pay for. Like I said Platy's do not seem to work as a hydration system on the A.T. just from what I've experienced seen and heard.
jack.. air time w/ a cold frosty sounds needed about now :)
im headed there myself
_terrapin_
06-25-2008, 14:37
Everyone in the political forum is a donating member, it's a prerequisite for joining.
As is anyone with a custom avatar, AFAIK.
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 14:48
Outside the Box:
Speaking of "Outside the Box" your last comment was outside the line.
First of all, my interaction with this customer had nothing to do with being committed to the "Almighty Dollar."
Any anyone who's had anything to do with this business since the day they opened the store knows about their commitment to customer service.
So if you want to be cute and snide to ME, fine. But to imply that this place is only considering or is only interested in the "almighty dollar" is both unkind, and more to the point, untrue.
And don't flatter yourself. Your post wasn't rough on me and I'm not that sensitive. and I'm sure not flustered.
Your post was simply wrong.
I speculated earlier that I doubted you had ANY experience working on the Trail during hiker season trying to please thru-hikers.
If I'm wrong, say so.
If I'm right, well why not admit that you're discussing something you have no first-hand experience with.
As to what constitutes the "best" customers, how about this: I like the ones who are friendly, positive, non-combative, not greedy, and don't think the world says "How high?" when they ask the world to jump.
Customers like that a pure joy.
If you'd ever worked outdoor retail, you'd know this. :rolleyes:
Lastly, you said "You can quite me on this."
Um, with all respect, people would be likelier to quote you on something if they had any confidence that you actually knew what you were talking about.
Alligator
06-25-2008, 14:53
As is anyone with a custom avatar, AFAIK.Anyone whose username is green is a donating member.
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 14:57
Had no idea.
I didnt have time to read the whole thread, but a few thoughts, as a former thru-hiker AND outfitter salesman.
I believe Platypus has a lifetime guarantee, so if that is the brand, the hiker does have a right to a new or fixed bag. Maybe they dont offer that guarantee anymore or he had a different brand.
They do sell a product made specifically for patching leaks which Ive used suceessfully. I would think all trailside outfitters should sell them and have plenty in stock.
Some hikers have unrealistic expectations. You cant continually run over your gear with a truck and then expect free replacements (unless a company specifies lifetime guarantee (like Leki).
Its generally up to the store to decide if they will send gear back to a company to be fixed or replaced. My store used to send back stuff that broke that was not bought at our store, but this is probably not industry standard. If you sold a faulty or broken product, it is your responsibility to rectify the situation.
Basically if someone thinks they are entitled to a new 8 dollar water bag after using one for 3 months, well thats pretty silly, but the customer is always right!
Jack Tarlin
06-25-2008, 15:22
1. The customer ain't always right.
2. If a store doesn't have something in stock, it's kinda hard to replace it. If
they want their gear fixed, replaced, or repaired, this is the company's
responsibility.
3. Their problem could have most likely been solved with a quick, free call to
Platypus.
4. Re-read #1, above, as often as necessary.
1. The customer ain't always right.
2. If a store doesn't have something in stock, it's kinda hard to replace it. If
they want their gear fixed, replaced, or repaired, this is the company's
responsibility.
3. Their problem could have most likely been solved with a quick, free call to
Platypus.
4. Re-read #1, above, as often as necessary.
But the customer IS always right... with one notable exception.
A. They are right to go to a store for help.
B. They are right to expect good customer service.
C. They are right to expect a quality product at a reasonable price.
D. They are right to expect the store to stand behind their products or their suppliers products under any guarantees or reasonable accommodation that may exist or can be provided for new or slightly used gear that has failed.
E. They are right to go somewhere else if the don't receive A, B, C, and D.
Notable Exception:
They are wrong if they think any store is a charity giving handouts.
I think that instead of throwing the golden rule around a more apt saying would be "You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar".
I've been a rude and demanding customer and I've been a polite and reasonable customer. It has been my experience that the times I've been polite and reasonable I've gotten what I wanted more often than not. Conversely, the times I've left empty handed and frustrated were the times I showed my ass.
I did not have to go through this cycle very many times to learn that when you treat people with respect you usually get a lot further.
This is not to say that there is no such thing as truly poor customer service - just because you own or work at a store doesn't mean you get a halo - but even in the worse situations at least I can leave with my self respect intact.
yeah. why should a hiker get a percentage off anything and what the hell does a "real' thru-hiker look like?
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12619&catid=searchresults&searchid=15835 :::::: In case you forget this is what a "real hiker" looks like :)
Appalachian Tater
06-25-2008, 17:48
Warranty Policies & Procedures
LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY.
All Platypus products are guaranteed against defects in materials and workmanship without time limit. Return shipping charges to the consumer for repaired products are covered. Should a product be found defective under this warranty, we will repair it or replace it at our option.
WHAT IS NOT COVERED.
Normal wear, abrasion, misuse, alteration, abuse, taking apart of the product, or improper washing and drying is not covered. Shipping charges to Platypus for a defective product are not covered. Platypus will not be liable for incidental or consequential damages. Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation may not apply.
HOW TO OBTAIN WARRANTY SERVICE OR REPAIR SERVICE FOR FIELD-DAMAGED PRODUCTS.
If you live outside North America contact a distributor near you for warranty service. Click here (http://www.platypushydration.com/dealer_locator/international.aspx) for a list of our International Distributors.
Please fill out the Returned Product form (http://www.platypushydration.com/contact_us/repair_form.aspx?RightNav=ContactUs&Inside=2) and enclose it with your product; Your name, address, and phone number are essential to assure proper return of the repaired or replaced product.
Products must be clean before they are returned.
Use Cascade Designs' mailing label (http://www.platypushydration.com/contact_us/repair_form.aspx?RightNav=ContactUs&Inside=2), package and return the product to Platypus Service Center.
Allow 4-6 weeks for your product to be returned to you. If it is damaged beyond repair, you will be contacted.
If you have any questions, contact:
PLATYPUS SERVICE CENTER
Email Customer Service (http://www.platypushydration.com/contact_us/email_customer_service.aspx?RightNav=ContactUs&Inside=2) or Call 1-800-531-9531
Monday - Friday, 8:30am - 4:30pm Pacific Time.
From: http://www.platypushydration.com/contact_us/warranty.aspx?RightNav=ContactUs&Inside=2 (http://www.platypushydration.com/contact_us/warranty.aspx?RightNav=ContactUs&Inside=2)
john gault
06-25-2008, 17:56
Warranty Policies & Procedures
LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY.
All Platypus products are guaranteed against defects in materials and workmanship without time limit. Return shipping charges to the consumer for repaired products are covered. Should a product be found defective under this warranty, we will repair it or replace it at our option.
WHAT IS NOT COVERED.
Normal wear, abrasion, misuse, alteration, abuse, taking apart of the product, or improper washing and drying is not covered. Shipping charges to Platypus for a defective product are not covered. Platypus will not be liable for incidental or consequential damages. Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation may not apply.
HOW TO OBTAIN WARRANTY SERVICE OR REPAIR SERVICE FOR FIELD-DAMAGED PRODUCTS.
If you live outside North America contact a distributor near you for warranty service. Click here (http://www.platypushydration.com/dealer_locator/international.aspx) for a list of our International Distributors.
Please fill out the Returned Product form (http://www.platypushydration.com/contact_us/repair_form.aspx?RightNav=ContactUs&Inside=2) and enclose it with your product; Your name, address, and phone number are essential to assure proper return of the repaired or replaced product.
Products must be clean before they are returned.
Use Cascade Designs' mailing label (http://www.platypushydration.com/contact_us/repair_form.aspx?RightNav=ContactUs&Inside=2), package and return the product to Platypus Service Center.
Allow 4-6 weeks for your product to be returned to you. If it is damaged beyond repair, you will be contacted.
If you have any questions, contact:
PLATYPUS SERVICE CENTER
Email Customer Service (http://www.platypushydration.com/contact_us/email_customer_service.aspx?RightNav=ContactUs&Inside=2) or Call 1-800-531-9531
Monday - Friday, 8:30am - 4:30pm Pacific Time.
From: http://www.platypushydration.com/contact_us/warranty.aspx?RightNav=ContactUs&Inside=2 (http://www.platypushydration.com/contact_us/warranty.aspx?RightNav=ContactUs&Inside=2)
Wow tater, thanks for that. And I thought you were a thoughtless bastard.
Odd Thomas
06-25-2008, 18:14
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12619&catid=searchresults&searchid=15835 :::::: In case you forget this is what a "real hiker" looks like :)
One small step for man
Do what Mom said. Always says PLEASE and THANK YOU.
Makes life much easier for everyone...
There you go getting all civil on us again.
1. The customer ain't always right.
2. If a store doesn't have something in stock, it's kinda hard to replace it. If
they want their gear fixed, replaced, or repaired, this is the company's
responsibility.
3. Their problem could have most likely been solved with a quick, free call to
Platypus.
4. Re-read #1, above, as often as necessary.
True, but this will lead people to buy stuff from the LLBean's of the world. Or Campmor. It gets harder and harder to support local every year.
The Solemates
06-25-2008, 19:04
I'd like to know what you guys think is "normal wear and tear" is for a pair of boots.
On my thru-hike, I had of Garmont boots that I thought would be durable. Through years of hiking, I know what to buy for durability. When I purchase a pair of boots I look them over and have about a 90% success rate with prophesying what will be the first thing to "break". Sure enough, after several hundred miles, exactly what I said will happen, happens.
With that said, I had a pair of Garmonts blow out in about 150 miles on my thru-hike. I mean completely blow out, soles became separated from the uppers, with my socks exposed with every step. When I got into town, I called Garmont customer service and ordered a new pair because I thought this should not have happened. The customer rep agreed with me.
When I got to the next town, a new pair of boots had arrived, but they were not the ones we had agreed to over the phone. They were huge 4 lb mountaineering boots that I did not want to hike in. The person I talked to on the phone just a few days earlier ensured me that the same pair I currently had would be in the shipment.
Now, I could have stopped right there and had a nice pair of boots, and then gone and bought a lighter weight pair at the local outfitter. I could have mailed the mountaineering boots home for later use because I do some alpine mountaineering as well. The mountaineering boots were nearly $200 more expensive than the pair I needed replaced. Instead, I was honest, called them back, explained it all, and the customer service rep (whose name I got) ensured me the new lighter weight boots would be in the mail in my next town stop. She even gave me a confirmation number. So, I mailed the mountaineering boots back and went back to hiking (with some seriously impaired boots at this point).
My next town stop, boots flappin' in the breeze, and nothin' in the mail. I called Garmont again, spoke to the exact same customer service rep, gave them the confirmation number, and they informed me they decided not to ship the replacement pair because they had already sent one pair. I was outraged. I had been so polite up to this point. I explained to them my situation again, gave them the fedex tracking number to prove I in fact did mail the other pair back, I asked to speak to the manager, and was on the phone for a good hour. They didnt budge. I had wasted so much time with this company.
I vowed to never in my life again purchase any peice of Garmont equipment, and have keep this vow to this day.
What do you guys think?
Isn't 150 miles of wear too little to merit a blow out?
What would you have done differently?
Doesnt Garmont crap suck a**?
What do you guys think?
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12619&catid=searchresults&searchid=15835 :::::: In case you forget this is what a "real hiker" looks like :)
Serious question:
Is this picture for real? I've seen it before and I thought it was something someone photoshopped.
Appalachian Tater
06-25-2008, 19:12
Isn't 150 miles of wear too little to merit a blow out?
What would you have done differently?
Doesnt Garmont crap suck a**?
What do you guys think?
Yes, nothing, yes. Plus I think they should have followed through on what they said they were going to do. I have a suspicion the customer service rep knew they have some crappy boots so she sent you some durable ones instead, on purpose, expecting you to be grateful for the upgrade.
Appalachian Tater
06-25-2008, 19:13
Serious question:
Is this picture for real? I've seen it before and I thought it was something someone photoshopped.No, that is for real.
john gault
06-26-2008, 00:12
Serious question:
Is this picture for real? I've seen it before and I thought it was something someone photoshopped.
No, that is for real.
...And I summited Katahdin with that guy (didn't hike together, just did it the same day - 14 Oct 2006).
_terrapin_
06-26-2008, 00:15
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12619&catid=searchresults&searchid=15835 :::::: In case you forget this is what a "real hiker" looks like :)
In a way, you gotta admire someone who can look that way, in full public view, and not care. That takes moxie. Or something.
Jack Tarlin
06-26-2008, 00:17
Um, and who the hell are you, Brad Pitt? :rolleyes:
In a way, you gotta admire someone who can look that way, in full public view, and not care. That takes moxie. Or something.
Not many mirrors on the AT! ;)
Not alot of public either!
Um, and who the hell are you, Brad Pitt? :rolleyes:
I can't imagine Brad Pitt would need a trail name of terrapin. :-?
john gault
06-26-2008, 00:35
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/customavatars/avatar14081_5.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?u=14081)
Actually I think he looks like Ed Norton
Jack Tarlin
06-26-2008, 00:36
Solemate:
Based on what you said, no, I don't think you're wrong in expecting boots to last more than 150 miles.
And it sure sounds like the Customer Service department dropped the ball, and badly.
As to what I'd have done differently.....I'd have gotten the full names of all the folks I talked to, especially the Customer Service Manager, and then I'd have written a detailed letter to the CEO or President of the company, stating my case, and stating why I was unhappy.
Sometime you gotta go to the top to get any results.
Otherwise, it sounds like you did just fine, and in those circumstances, I wouldn't be in a hurry to buy anything from that company again, either.
But to answer your original question, "normal wear and tear" for most hiking boots is a lot longer than 150 miles.
NICKTHEGREEK
06-26-2008, 06:32
No, that is for real.
Not Halloween or some frat gag? you are serious?
Lone Wolf
06-26-2008, 06:38
Serious question:
Is this picture for real? I've seen it before and I thought it was something someone photoshopped.
of course it is. minnesotasmith ain't no hi-tech gear weenie
of course it is. minnesotasmith ain't no hi-tech gear weenie
What's a hi-tech gear weenie?
Lone Wolf
06-26-2008, 07:28
What's a hi-tech gear weenie?
you know damn well what one is
take-a-knee
06-26-2008, 09:52
most hikers wanting stuff are grumpy bastards. hang out at an outfitter during prime season on the trail. they're always wanting free stuff.
It ain't only hikers, a lot of people have grown up with their hands out, and most of them are screaming for "change".
It ain't only hikers, a lot of people have grown up with their hands out, and most of them are screaming for "change".
Nice innocuous way to slip a little politics into the general forum. :rolleyes:
In a way, you gotta admire someone who can look that way, in full public view, and not care. That takes moxie. Or something.
Sure. But you sully the memory of a decent Mainer.
Blissful
06-26-2008, 13:09
Rockfish Gap Outfitters in Waynesboro would have likely replaced the playtpus. They keep extra stuff like that in a cabinet just for hikers. They are excellent with warranty issues. Great guys.
Appalachian Tater
06-26-2008, 13:10
Wow tater, thanks for that. And I thought you were a thoughtless bastard.I'm not sure whether you are genuinely thanking me or being sarcastic.
_terrapin_
06-26-2008, 13:10
Rockfish Gap Outfitters in Waynesboro would have likely replaced the playtpus. They keep extra stuff like that in a cabinet just for hikers. They are excellent with warranty issues. Great guys.
What earthly use would there be for a used, leaky Platypus bag? :-?
Odd Thomas
06-26-2008, 13:12
What's a hi-tech gear weenie?
adult toy
Odd Thomas
06-26-2008, 13:17
It ain't only hikers, a lot of people have grown up with their hands out, and most of them are screaming for "change".
People with their hands out are fans of status quo, not change. Look at the biggest person with their hands out: uncle sam.
hopefulhiker
06-26-2008, 14:05
As far as replacement gear issues are concerned I was utterly amazed at outfitters and gear companies willingnes to replace products for free. Marmot, Luxury Lite, Outdoor Provision Company, Tarp Tent, and others all replaced gear for me with no questions asked. It was incredible..
I only had one complaint. I used the Leki Maliku poles for the thru hike. I was pretty rough on them but they do boast a life time warrenty.. When I hiked into Kent,CT. my poles were bent and the outfitter there repaired them free of charge!
By the time I got to Gorham NH I was used to the good service, After coming off the Whites I had bent another pole and went to an outfitter there.
I hate to say it but the store owner there was not helpful at all. He was sitting right in front of a bunch of Leki pole parts and could have repaired it. He had another set of identical poles in stock. I asked if I could use his phone to calll Leki for customer service. He refused!
With much frustration I bought the brand new set of Leki's but I felt a little taken advantage of.
As far as replacement gear issues are concerned I was utterly amazed at outfitters and gear companies willingnes to replace products for free....
All I can guess is that the broken gear is of some value to them. Maybe they study it and try to come up with some way to make it better.
Panzer
Blissful
06-26-2008, 16:25
Rockfish Gap Outfitters returns the defective merchandise for replacements. And they get spare replacements which they keep for hikers coming in. (for example - when we sent in our defective Nalgene canteen to the company, they sent us two canteens back. That kind of thing). Rockfish Gap did replacements for us several times (like for my BA mat). In fact, they know the guys at these companies (had a good chat with Go Lite while we were there - the umbrella PB bought from them was defective).
Sailor (The other one)
06-26-2008, 18:57
Rather than b*tch about lousy service, I'd rather relate stories of excellent service:
3. Unbelievably fast delivery from Campmor, about 100% of the time.
1. Ditto for Campmor
2. Zpacks.com. Order placed Sunday, arrived in mail Wednesday.
3. Backpackinglight.com. Order placed Monday night, arrived in mail Thursday.
4. Hoo-Ahhs thru Amazon. Order placed Monday night, arrived in mail Thursday.
5. Playhard Inc. Order placed Monday night, arrived in mail Thursday.
None charged insane shipping and handling fees.
Appalachian Tater
06-26-2008, 19:00
LL Bean doesn't carry a lot of good hiking gear, but they do have great socks, and their service is unbeatable, especially with returns.
Big names like backcountry.com, campmor.com and those guys are tops at shipping times and return policies.
2 of the best customer service experiences I've had were with Brian Frankle at ULA and Ron Moak at Six Moon Designs.
Blissful
06-26-2008, 20:59
Big names like backcountry.com, campmor.com and those guys are tops at shipping times and return policies.
Like Campmor very much but their return policy is a year after purchase. Then you need to go to the manufacturer.
Sierra Trading Post has lifetime warranty, like REI. Another good company to order from when they have good gear in stock. I have gotten Teva products and running shoes from them.
NICKTHEGREEK
06-27-2008, 13:46
As far as replacement gear issues are concerned I was utterly amazed at outfitters and gear companies willingnes to replace products for free. Marmot, Luxury Lite, Outdoor Provision Company, Tarp Tent, and others all replaced gear for me with no questions asked. It was incredible..
I only had one complaint. I used the Leki Maliku poles for the thru hike. I was pretty rough on them but they do boast a life time warrenty.. When I hiked into Kent,CT. my poles were bent and the outfitter there repaired them free of charge!
By the time I got to Gorham NH I was used to the good service, After coming off the Whites I had bent another pole and went to an outfitter there.
I hate to say it but the store owner there was not helpful at all. He was sitting right in front of a bunch of Leki pole parts and could have repaired it. He had another set of identical poles in stock. I asked if I could use his phone to calll Leki for customer service. He refused!
With much frustration I bought the brand new set of Leki's but I felt a little taken advantage of.
Where's the surprise? Different stores, different locations, different people. It's the way the world is. As an AT hiker, unless you commute up and down the trail year after year, meeting new people is part of the bargain. Around home I know which clerk at the grocery is faster, which barber to use and who to avoid, and which postal clerk is most helpful. When I travel -who knows?
jaywalke
06-27-2008, 15:49
I worked at an Eastern Mountain Sports for a few months, and the 100% guarantee had a dark side and a light side.
The good part was the guy who came in with his 20 year-old EMS daypack that had been loved to death. He wanted it repaired, but it was more patches than material remaining. I took him over to the wall of daypacks and said, "Pick any one and take it home." He was thrilled. Lifetime customer . . . and it cost EMS maybe $10.
The dark side was the cheapskates, the smirking prinks who beat the heck out of gear or bought it for one trip, then came in and threw it on the counter, demanding a replacement/refund. The best (worst?) was the guy who threw his boots at me (when I was ringing up someone else, so they bounced off my chest) and said, "Those pieces of *(&% barely lasted a thousand miles!" Then there were the folks who bought last year's model of stove at Sierra Trading Post and brought it in to exchange for full price. I didn't see much difference between any of those folks and shoplifters. The store just raises the prices for everyone else to make up the difference.
Mother's Finest
06-27-2008, 15:58
I want to share something with you guys.
I was recently helping out in a friend's gear store.
A thru-hiker came in, and showed me a pretty beat-up looking Platypus, and said (and I quote). "This is leaking. Can you do anything for me?"
I was pretty much taken aback.....I had no idea what they expected, so I said "Well, what did you have in mind?"
He said "Can you give me a replacement?"
Well to keep this brief, I told him no. First off, we didn't have that bag in stock or anything like it. Secondly, while Platypus at one time supplied some stores with free replacement bags for swap-outs, they either don't do this anymore, or in any case, we didn't have any to give. I politely told the guy that we were not in a position to swap out or simply replace his bag, and I suggested he get in touch with the Platypus people.
He left, looking none too pleased.
Moral of story: Starting a conversation with a "What are you gonna do for me?" attitude is probably not the most effective way to get help. Secondly, a store is under no obligation to simply take something off their wall and hand it to you because you've broken your original item. Customers with a problem should approach either the store where they bought the item,or they should contact the company that manufactured it. Now I know contacting the original store is not always possible. But when something falls apart on the Trail, it is NOT the responsibility of the store to simply hand you whatever you want. Your beef is with the individual company, and that's why they have Customer Service Departments, and, in most cases, toll free numbers. Stores will very often work with a customer AFTER a company's customer service or warranty/repair people have been consulted, and will generally do their very best to help the customer, but simply going into a store with a destroyed piece of gear, asking "What can you do for me?", and obviously expecting to get something right off the wall for free is NOT the way to go.
(I could add that what thru-hikers do to their gear after just a few months, never mind six, goes WAY BEYOND the "normal wear and tear" phrasing that is found on nearly all gear warranties, but I'll save that for another post).
Would be curious to hear some thoughts or opinions on this.
Jackie T
Somebody comes into my store with ANYTHING they bought somewhere else, my answer is real simple. Go talk to them. If you expect anything else, you are crazy. Have a nice day
I don't have time for people that are not my customer. and before anyone says hey they could become your customer.....well that may be true but you have to draw the line somewhere.
peace
mf
1. The customer ain't always right.
2. If a store doesn't have something in stock, it's kinda hard to replace it. If
they want their gear fixed, replaced, or repaired, this is the company's
responsibility.
3. Their problem could have most likely been solved with a quick, free call to
Platypus.
4. Re-read #1, above, as often as necessary.
My comment saying the customer is always right! was sarcasm, sorry you didnt pick up on it. I think we generally agree on this stand as well as most anyone with half a brain.
Sorry dont know how to use punctuation on this Costa Rican computer:)
sheepdog
06-27-2008, 21:28
I love customers who come in for refunds for brands that you don't sell. They insist that they bought it at your store.
Jack Tarlin
06-27-2008, 23:16
Mother's Finest:
I liked your post. Pithy and to the point. I could learn from writing like this!
boarstone
06-28-2008, 08:01
Rather than b*tch about lousy service, I'd rather relate stories of excellent service:
1. Grommets ripped out of pack straps on a Camp Trails pack. Replaced with a smile and no-questions-asked at the store at NOC.
2. A 12-year old $250 MountainSmith FrostFire pack, replaced for store credit ($100 or so) at REI. This was actually at the suggestion of a sales associate; I wouldn't have dreamed of doing that. Fact was, I'd used the pack on one outing, hated it, and it had sat on the shelf all those years.
3. Unbelievably fast delivery from Campmor, about 100% of the time.
4. At least 1/2 hour of cheerful one-on-one "product support" on the phone with George Andrews (Mr. AntiGravityGear.) And this was on a stove he had sent me gratis! This last item was so generous that it prompted a reciprocal hand-made gift to George. Nice Guy!
5. Outfitter at Troutville/Daleville -- the one next to Krogers. I needed a replacement filter element. They didn't have one, but they took a filter out of a new unit for me. Gave me a small "thru-hiker discount" without my having asked for such. Thanks!
Yes, with this I agree, so much so that at Xmas, I send a xmas card to all my suppliers I have delt w/over the year and specify "to all who helped in my endevor to enjoy the outdoors" or similar.:sun
Odd Thomas
06-28-2008, 08:11
I love customers who come in for refunds for brands that you don't sell. They insist that they bought it at your store.
Lol, yea, then trying to be tactful you ask for a receipt, then they think your being a jerk for asking for a receipt.
can't win sometimes
any shopper convicted of being a jerk on a return should be sentenced to doing rma work for a week...
"you don't like our return policy? well, go in the back and help me do mfg. returns for a week. you keep all the profits from that."
NICKTHEGREEK
06-28-2008, 08:32
Jackie T
Somebody comes into my store with ANYTHING they bought somewhere else, my answer is real simple. Go talk to them. If you expect anything else, you are crazy. Have a nice day
I don't have time for people that are not my customer. and before anyone says hey they could become your customer.....well that may be true but you have to draw the line somewhere.
peace
mf
Now there's the foundation of another retailing empire.
Weird read, I figured some of this stuff was a no brainier.
My exped air mat started leaking somewhere around standing bear. around hot springs it started to piss me off.
I made the call to the outfitter I purchased it at (back home), and explained my situation and asked what my options were. He made a 3 way call with out door research and I was given a repair po # I could walk into any outfitter with (if they sold any outdoor research stuff) and receive credit on my purchase. The guys at the daleville outfitter are who ended up helping and they were great about it.
The whole phone call took 15 mins, easy stuff..
-Blackberry
I've carried a GG Vapor Trail pack for 3 or 4 years. I love the pack. The waist belt started to tear on both sides where the belt was attached to the padding that goes around the waist. I checked out the GG website, and found instructions for sending back gear that needs repair. I took the belt out of the pack, sent it in as instructed, asking that they call me on my mobile phone to let me know what repair / replacement would cost. I got a call a few days later that they'd looked at it, and would be sending me a new waist belt, at no charge. He seemed concerned that the colors have changed a little since I bought my pack, and that I wouldn't be happy with this....I was so thrilled to be getting a new waist belt out of it, that I told him that I appreciated his concern, but would be thrilled with how they were handling it.....
Another manufacturer that backs up their gear!
I guess that I've had such good results from dealing with the manufacturers over the years, that I wouldn't expect or even ask a local store, that I hadn't bought from in the past, to go out of their way for me. Even while in the middle of a hike, Kelty went the extra mile for myself and another hiker, seeing that we could continue our hike without interruption.
I probably would expect a dealer to offer the use of a phone to talk with a manufacturer, but that is my idea of a good business practice. If that belief translates into going further for a non-customer, then so much the better. That has happened too, but I wouldn't expect it, or be upset if they didn't offer. That would be a form of trail magic.
Thru hikers do seem to get spoiled, one of the down sides to the over-abundance of organized trail magic, at least to some degree.
minnesotasmith
07-07-2008, 12:00
Most hikers are cheap bastards as well. Sometimes that's a compliment. Other times not.
Of the nonrich ones, I'd say only the ones likely to make it all the way are cheap. ;)
Of the nonrich ones, I'd say only the ones likely to make it all the way are cheap. ;)Well, cheap, thrifty and frugal are simillar, but I'd much rather be thrifty and frugal. In my book, cheap is never a compliment.:sun
Well, cheap, thrifty and frugal are simillar, but I'd much rather be thrifty and frugal. In my book, cheap is never a compliment.:sun
I know a guy so tight,
he squeaks before he spends money. But he is not cheap.
IMHO Platys and most other such hydration systems should be considered an expendible item, much like clothing. Fact is, they eventually wear out and must be replaced. Sometimes it's user carelessness that causes their failure, and sometimes they just plain wear out (threads in a cap, for example).
If the manufacturer offers a product warranty for this item, that's very generous of them. They must be betting few if any users will need or request replacements for an item that will certainly need replacing if used constantly--like on an AT thru-hike. But if they offer the warranty (I don't know if they do, which is why I wrote IF) then the user should contact the manufacturer offering the warranty directly. Second choice would be the actual retailer that sold the product. Last choice would be a retailer than did not factor into the original sale at all.
Still, if a hiker came into my (fictional) store with a good attitude, I might be obliged to make a call on his behalf to help him obtain a repacement from the manufacturer. If I had a pre-existing relationship with that manufacturer or its distributor, I could probably be of assistance. Chances are I could have the replacement overnighted or second-day'd to my (fictional) store and the hiker could have picked it up next day or the day after. There should be no expectation that I would pull one off the shelf to trade with the hiker, leaving the task of settling with the manufacturer to me for later.
In Jack's example, the hiker had one of those entitlement attitudes mixed with a nasty dose of demand. Not much chance I'd go out of my way to help that guy. He'd probably get the manufacturer's toll-free number from me along with a smile and a oh-so-sincere "have a nice day." :rolleyes:
Platy's used to have a "lifetime guarantee" which was written right on it. It's not written any more and I have no idea of their guarantee but if treated right they'll last a long time.
Platy's used to have a "lifetime guarantee" which was written right on it. It's not written any more and I have no idea of their guarantee but if treated right they'll last a long time.
I just checked their website:
http://www.platy.com/contact_us/warranty.aspx?RightNav=ContactUs&Inside=2
Warranty Policies & Procedures
LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY.
All Platypus products are guaranteed against defects in materials and workmanship without time limit. Return shipping charges to the consumer for repaired products are covered. Should a product be found defective under this warranty, we will repair it or replace it at our option.
I have 4 or 5 platy / other bladders that we've used for 10 yrs or more...one of the 1L platy's that the kids used a lot leaked a few years ago (it leaked at a place that it tended to fold when not in use, or not full)- I sent it back to them and they sent a new one within a few weeks....
I have not had a problem with any manufacturer except one.
I have a couple pairs of Merrell shoes.
The fabric liner came undone from the sole inside the shoe, around the heel, on both pairs.
I called Merrell, and the only response they had was to take it back to the retail seller.
My response is simple.... I will never ever buy a Merrell product again.
No complain, no bitching, just the power of the pocketbook strikes again.
I have had returns with REI, MSR, Cascade Designs, Hilleberg, Outdoor Research, Leatherman, North Face, Snow Peak, Black Diamond, and I am sure others I don't recall at this time.
Every one of those has been pleasant and helpful conversations that led to a solution I could live with.
When I call and talk to someone in customer service, the first thing I say is "How are you doing today?" I don't start the conversation with a complaint.
I worked in manufacturing for many years. It is impossible for a manufacturer to make every item perfect, without the cost exceeding the market value. They know that some products will get through quality control. Sampling inspection is not perfect. The good companies account for that and will work to keep a customer.
Just my experience, Ken
double d
07-08-2008, 13:31
What I suggest someone do before they buy a product is to test out that companies customer service dept. and ask about their return policy. You can get a great understanding of how they would react to you if your shoes, pack, whatever doesn't go well.
I have had returns with REI, MSR, Cascade Designs, Hilleberg, Outdoor Research, Leatherman, North Face, Snow Peak, Black Diamond, and I am sure others I don't recall at this time.
Every one of those has been pleasant and helpful conversations that led to a solution I could live with.
When I call and talk to someone in customer service, the first thing I say is "How are you doing today?" I don't start the conversation with a complaint.
Just my experience, Ken
Seems you return an awful lot of stuff.... What's with that?? If something claims to have a lifetime warranty, that's the lifetime of the item, not the lifetime of the purchaser. Things wear out, when they do, I replace them. I would never assume that a company should replace something that has worn out from use.
There are some retailers that can track a person's habit of returning goods and if you're a habitual returner, you can be turned away.
Jack Tarlin
07-08-2008, 15:36
I must say Lilred made a good point....this guy seems to have felt the need to return more stuff that just about anyone I've ever heard of, which, sorry to say, would seem to indicate a kind of high-expectations kind of consumer. (In 14 years of long-distance backpacking, I've had to deal with warranty/repair issues maybe three or four times and I suspect put my gear thru more wear and tear than most folks, but, whatever).
That being said, I have to disagree with his comments about Merrell. I had a problem with my boots earlier this year and received wonderful replacements, no questions asked, a few days later. I will buy Merrell's at any opportunity, and would advise others to do likewise. Good company, good product, good customer service.
I had the same initial reaction as Lilred and Jack, but I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt. I assume that many of these returns Snwcmpr made were for items that were not what they wanted once they could examine them, and were returned prior to use for exchange or refund. Perhaps they are just a fussy person who has particular criteria. This is an accepted part of selling on line.
If, on the otherhand, these were returns for perceived defects or for items that had been worn out through heavy use, then this would be a customer I wouldn't want to have in the future. It is too bad, but some people do take advantage of a liberal return policy or warrenty, and eventually spoil the same for the rest of us reasonable consumers.
At this point I will withhold judgment for lack of details.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Appalachian Tater
07-08-2008, 17:16
If something claims to have a lifetime warranty, that's the lifetime of the item, not the lifetime of the purchaser.It depends. Sometimes a lifetime warranty is for the lifetime of the original purchaser. Here's an example: http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSN2620687220070727
Things like cookware often come with a lifetime warranty.
There's no need to feel sorry for returning a worn out or damaged item with such a lifetime warranty. No one forces the manufacturer to offer it. The manufacturer accounts for the costs in advance and sometimes even makes a profit on the item. For instance, the earplug-type earphones I use have a lifetime warranty with a six or seven dollar postage & handling fee. That more than covers their costs to manufacture and ship and they make a profit when I return them. They've even waived the fee without me asking because they saw I had already returned them. Of course, that's not true when it's a pair of $600 earphones instead of my $16 ones, but the cost is built into the original purchase price.
Another good example is Zippo. They don't just offer a lifetime warranty on their pocket lighters, they will fix any Zippo you send them regardless of age or condition. If you find one on the beach from WW II encrusted with minerals they'll fix or replace it. They even send YOU a penny in a little holder saying something like, "The penny you didn't have to spend to fix a Zippo". They even pay return postage. They've built their entire reputation around this policy, standing behind the quality of their products.
http://www.zippo.com/repairs/ZippoGuarantee.aspx
The same thing used to be true with Craftsman tools, but I hear that Sears is not always standing behind their guarantee in all cases these days.
Jack Tarlin
07-08-2008, 19:05
And the reason that more companies DON'T off these sorts of services anyomore, Tater is preceisely because people take unfair advantage of it.
And the reason that more companies DON'T off these sorts of services anyomore, Tater is preceisely because people take unfair advantage of it.
Doncha think that its a selling point as well?
Jack Tarlin
07-08-2008, 19:19
And how well is Sears doing these days? :-?
Appalachian Tater
07-08-2008, 19:40
And the reason that more companies DON'T off these sorts of services anyomore, Tater is preceisely because people take unfair advantage of it.How do you take unfair advantage of a lifetime guarantee?
A couple of months ago someone was talking about wearing out socks and taking them back and I almost made a post about how that was wrong. However, that company guarantees free replacement for life. If it weren't to their advantage to do so, they wouldn't. That's a free market at work. No one's forcing companies to offer such a warranty.
And how well is Sears doing these days? :-?Sears Holding is a $10 billion + market cap company. If they continue to stand by their Craftsman and Kenmore and other respected brands, they should do well for another 120 years.
I don't think Sears is doing poorly because they'll replace a socket when it cracks. I just think if I was buying an item and had a choice I would buy the item that gave a LT guarantee. A selling point thats all!
taildragger
07-08-2008, 19:55
Depends on the use of an item for the return.
I had a pair of salomons that started to fall apart after about 6 months of ownership. The soles were still good, just the inside fabric got torn to shreds on my trip to Arizona. I took the product to Backwoods (only local outfitter here). I told them what I had done with the shoes, what I thought killed them (2 miles of postholing with seal skinz on) and when I bought them at EMS. They talked to salomon for me, and I'm getting a new pair of shoes for this. I didn't expect this at all, but since they did this for me I have been giving them more business if they whatever products I need in stock.
I'll return any item if I think that it wore out before its average life, or if there was a design flaw to it (I actually got some parts re-welded on my jeep one year after the job was finished, all because the initial welds were crap, but I was 335 days past the warranty, then again, the guys in that shop were stellar and told off the shop manager when they saw the weld (best service guys I've ever worked with)).
Another return story then I'll leave. I returned a friends Mars pack to REI since the bottom was starting to develop holes and he hadn't used the pack too much in the 2 years that he owned it. I took it to the store, showed them the spots, and they gave him a full refund for it w/o a receipt. Very cool, I didn't think that they'd accept the bag.
A store that helps me out with my gear in any way is a store that I continue to do business with.
_terrapin_
07-08-2008, 20:05
I've returned oodles of stuff to REI, most of it after light use and deciding it wasn't what I wanted. I've also purchased oodles more. Ditto with EMS. I've also purchased stuff that was a bit sub-standard (eg. REI house-brand underwear, a jacket from EMS) which... well, wasn't returnable, or wasn't worth returning.
I'm still using a pair of Lange ski boots from the returned-items bin at REI about 15 years ago, for $75. They killed my feet for the first three or four years, but my feet finally won. I see no point "upgrading" now that they're finally broken in.
Between these two stores I've dropped a large bundle of bucks. My conscience is clear.
I made contact with the Chaco shoe company and they graciously shipped a new pair of Chaco sandals, free of charge, for Chaco to pick up in Harpers Ferry. They were very accomodating in supplying him with sandals, shirt, and other stuff.
REI - Black diamond tent wasn't sewn completely on one of the net pieces.
MSR - Sweet water filter started leaking at the point the pump rod goes into the pump body.
Cascade Designs - RidgeresteR chair tore at the point the strap attaches to the chair.
Hilleberg - The Akto tent tore at the top of the zipper
Outdoor Research - Flex gaitors snaps tore out of the velcro, replaced these twice, and the company is phasing these items out
Leatherman - OOOPS, I fixed this one myself
North Face - zipper broke on zip-off pants leg
Snow Peak - Piezo igniter quit working
Black Diamond - See REI item above
I will say no more, I was judged without a jury of my peers.
Ken
Oh, one more thing....
All these items were claims of items I had less than a year.
Ken
The job of a salesman starts when the customer says "NO", not before.
That is what I have learned in my industry. It applies to all sales / marketing / customer service jobs. Any one, can handle the customer that is reasonable, logical, intelligent and has some idea what he wants. But, lets face it, we don't always live in that world. :mad:
Thats why retail stores employ smart, enthusiastic, knowledgeable folk who know how to turn a "NO" into a "Yes, I'll take it". :banana
We have all experienced that unpleasant customer and I am sure we have all been that unpleasant customer ( don't say you haven't, because you have ). :-?
Thats why you Mr. Salesman are there, to turn that No into a Yes. :sun
If anyone could do it, then store owners would do their hiring at the local bus stop. But they don't or at least in this case, we hope not. :D
ShakeyLeggs
07-09-2008, 23:11
When I hiked back in 01 I had a few pieces of gear fail on me. The fist was my pack. A Dana LTW I loved that pack but have since retired it. I called Dana and they were great about service< I returned the pack to Dana and they sent me a teraplane to use. At trail days I got my pack back and the Dana reps refitted it for me. Problem solved.
My filter failed a Pur hiker. I bought a MSR to replace it due to the store where I was did not carry Pur. At trail days I told the pur rep about the problem not expecting anything as I already replaced the filter. The Pur rep out of the blue handed me a brand new hiker filter in the box. Totaly unexpected as I did not ask for a filter but was greatful for the lighter filter. To this day all I use id Pur filters.
At trail days dropped my Lekis off at the rep for general cleaning. As it was a free service for hikers and they needed it. When I went to pick them up they had replaced one of the tube for free since it was bent.
The only time I really asked for waranty service was with my pack and I was totally happy with how they handled it. The rest I never asked for service. I totally agree we put way more abuse on gear than the regular packer so the waranty becomes problematic.
Gray Blazer
07-09-2008, 23:17
I made contact with the Chaco shoe company and they graciously shipped a new pair of Chaco sandals, free of charge, for Chaco to pick up in Harpers Ferry. They were very accomodating in supplying him with sandals, shirt, and other stuff.
Maybe we should change our trail names to Col. North Face or Col. Mountain Hardware or sumthin.
I made contact with the Chaco shoe company and they graciously shipped a new pair of Chaco sandals, free of charge, for Chaco to pick up in Harpers Ferry. They were very accomodating in supplying him with sandals, shirt, and other stuff.
Chaco is a great company with a great product. They have donated significant $$$ for conservation and recreation projects, including supporting the Cumberland Trail. For that, I am grateful.
http://www.outdoorindustry.com/media.outdoor.php?news_id=2859&sort_year=2007
NICKTHEGREEK
07-10-2008, 09:38
Must be nice to operate an outfitter in the first hundred miles on the AT in Spring. Might suck to operate an outfitter 300+ miles northbound on the AT in early summer.:eek::D;)
I'm reluctant to disagree with someone who has a nice dog like Bittle, but imagine the number of dropouts who would try to hit you up for a cash refund on all that gear.
Cookerhiker
07-10-2008, 12:58
So last week while hiking in Dolly Sods, I lost a pole tip in deep muck. Like I have on 2 other occasions, I called Black Diamond about a replacement. Unlike the last time this happened, the BD warranty rep said they don't replace the bottom of poles gratis when a tip falls off or breaks. I mentioned they had previously but he said they never do.
I didn't make a big deal of it. He tranferred me to their mail-order sales so I could order (and pay for) a new bottom. What bothered me was when I asked the second guy what their warranty policy was and the guy couldn't answer. I'm not looking for eternal free replacement for the umpteen times & years I use these poles but at some point there's a line, e.g. if the new pole breaks after 2 weeks, shouldn't they replace it? He finally got back to me and said it's one year. OK. I ordered a bottom pole replacement.
This was Monday of this week when I talked to them. The pole bottom arrived today. Fantastic service!
Next is up is my broken thermarest, a casualty of the same trip. I shipped it to Cascade Designs this week.
I like Leki. My poles have been rebuilt atleast three times and they're 11 years old. The only original pieces are the top sections. I've had new grips(once), and both lower sections replaced (twice) along with new tips every time I go to Trail Days. This year I got new tips and baskets at the ADZPCTKO.
Nearly Normal
07-10-2008, 16:30
I had a stake loop come off my tent. Silly me, I sewed it back on.
Cookerhiker
07-10-2008, 16:35
I had a stake loop come off my tent. Silly me, I sewed it back on.
I used duct tape.
I had some fleece lined nylon pants from Patagonia that split at the ass. Too involved to rip stiches and sew right (inside seam), I sent them back where they took care of it for free.
The Solemates
07-10-2008, 17:07
I just ripped the tail end outta my pants in June glissading. Think I should send em back? :rolleyes:
minnesotasmith
07-10-2008, 17:55
And, that's Dana. I tried using a Dana Bridger pack on my thru in 2006, and the straps kept falling apart. There were several design/material flaws in the straps. No matter how many times I told the tech rep on the phone (at Marmot now, since they bought what was left of Dana after their main designer bailed on them) how a pair of straps needed to be fixed, they just repeatedly sent me off-the-shelf, still defective-the-same-way straps. Their straps failed in as little as 3 hours of use.
I like Marmot's jackets and "wet ribs" (pack pocket attachment), but if someone offered me a new Dana pack for free, I'd turn it down as a bad deal.
Bulldawg
07-10-2008, 21:52
Seems you return an awful lot of stuff.... What's with that?? If something claims to have a lifetime warranty, that's the lifetime of the item, not the lifetime of the purchaser. Things wear out, when they do, I replace them. I would never assume that a company should replace something that has worn out from use.
There are some retailers that can track a person's habit of returning goods and if you're a habitual returner, you can be turned away.
I'm in auto parts. As many of you know the catch phrase in auto parts is "Lifetime Warranty". Well it used to be anyway. And it is just because of the reason stated above. So many people never read the fine print in a warranty. For example, on a set of brake pads the box says "Limited Lifetime Warranty, details inside" Basically it is exactly as stated above, the Lifetime Warranty equates to the standard common lifetime of the product, brake pads in this example, if you read the lawyer fine print on the sheet inside the box. It got so bad that we simply tell people that ask about warranty now, "If they wear out faster than you think they ought to, we will take care of them, you are the one that has to live with the fact you cheated us if you take advantage of our kindness." Honestly, that is exactly what I tell people.
When I used to manage a store years ago, I had tihs guy who delivered papers. he couldn't understand why his brake pads wore out every 3 or 4 months. I made about 5 sets good for him and I finally told him on the fifth set, "Look man, you deliver papers, warranties don't cover commercial vehicles and I have made 5 sets good as a customer satisfaction practice, but this is the last set." The guy looked at me and said "I really appreciate you telling me that, I never knew that, I'm sorry I've taken advantage of your kindness." 5 years later we SELL him brake pads every 5 or 6 months for his paper delivery vehicle.
Honesty and frankness pays off, for everyone involved.
And, that's Dana. I tried using a Dana Bridger pack on my thru in 2006, and the straps kept falling apart. There were several design/material flaws in the straps. No matter how many times I told the tech rep on the phone (at Marmot now, since they bought what was left of Dana after their main designer bailed on them) how a pair of straps needed to be fixed, they just repeatedly sent me off-the-shelf, still defective-the-same-way straps. Their straps failed in as little as 3 hours of use.
I like Marmot's jackets and "wet ribs" (pack pocket attachment), but if someone offered me a new Dana pack for free, I'd turn it down as a bad deal.
What weight load did you have in the Bridger? I figure the thing flexes out north of 35lbs. Curious about blowout.
And, that's Dana. I tried using a Dana Bridger pack on my thru in 2006, and the straps kept falling apart.
My Dana Design Glacier is a great pack. It's never let me down. Not once.
My guess based on photos of you... you overloaded your pack. I believe that pack is designed to carry about 40 pounds. Not 60.
I recently ordered a gym bag from Online shoes. The bag was $40.00 no shipping $. When the item arrived I was completely satisfied. When I was taking off the tags I noticed that the MSRP was $35.00, NBD. I figured with the shipping the price was fair. I e-mailed them to alert them about the price differance and not asking for a refund,saying I was completely satisfied etc. Almost immediatly they responded thanking me for pointing out the error and refunded the differance also stating that they will give me a discount on my next purchase. I checked the website and sure enough the price was changed. They will continue to get my business.
I've only returned my gear once (for something other than wrong size):
My pre-Columbia Montrail Hardrocks delaminated quickly on the sole. Not normal wear and tear. I wrote them, they sent back a new pair. I even wrote about it:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29411&highlight=shout+montrail
I was in a local outfitter once and saw a map and guide set with an MSRP of $24 stickered for $20. I pointed that out to the owner and it was quickly re-stickered $24. :)
minnesotasmith
07-11-2008, 13:35
My Dana Design Glacier is a great pack. It's never let me down. Not once.
My guess based on photos of you... you overloaded your pack. I believe that pack is designed to carry about 40 pounds. Not 60.
1) Mountain Crossings, where I bought the pack, roughly knew my body weight. I kept my pack weight within the bounds of the traditional percentage of body weight, so if there was an error, it was MC's.
2) There were two gross design flaws in the pack straps. First, there was a seam just below the shoulder in front that was stitched with thin, weak, water-vulnerable thread. Second, there was a strong thick flat (black, I think) plastic piece in the strap pads that was not mechanically engaged. It needed to have about 8 holes punched in it, and have threads run thru it.
I repeatedly told Marmot what they needed to do to make their pack straps reliable, and they would not send me a deflawed set. All they would do is about 4 times (twice at Mountain Crossing's expense) is send me off-the-shelf, just-as-flawed straps like moronic robots. That's NOT fixing the problem. I'm done with Dana packs the rest of my life.
the goat
07-15-2008, 16:00
1) Mountain Crossings, where I bought the pack, roughly knew my body weight. I kept my pack weight within the bounds of the traditional percentage of body weight, so if there was an error, it was MC's..
how was MC supposed to know how much you were going to try to stuff into that pack? after all, you were on the far end of the spectrum with regard to pack weight/ gear items.
sherrill
07-15-2008, 16:39
1) Mountain Crossings, where I bought the pack, roughly knew my body weight. I kept my pack weight within the bounds of the traditional percentage of body weight, so if there was an error, it was MC's.
I don't think you can expect a pack to carry more based on the percentage of your body weight. That's a loose guideline and not a manufacturer's spec.
johnny quest
07-15-2008, 16:51
I'm in auto parts. As many of you know the catch phrase in auto parts is "Lifetime Warranty". Well it used to be anyway. And it is just because of the reason stated above. So many people never read the fine print in a warranty. For example, on a set of brake pads the box says "Limited Lifetime Warranty, details inside" Basically it is exactly as stated above, the Lifetime Warranty equates to the standard common lifetime of the product, brake pads in this example, if you read the lawyer fine print on the sheet inside the box. It got so bad that we simply tell people that ask about warranty now, "If they wear out faster than you think they ought to, we will take care of them, you are the one that has to live with the fact you cheated us if you take advantage of our kindness." Honestly, that is exactly what I tell people.
When I used to manage a store years ago, I had tihs guy who delivered papers. he couldn't understand why his brake pads wore out every 3 or 4 months. I made about 5 sets good for him and I finally told him on the fifth set, "Look man, you deliver papers, warranties don't cover commercial vehicles and I have made 5 sets good as a customer satisfaction practice, but this is the last set." The guy looked at me and said "I really appreciate you telling me that, I never knew that, I'm sorry I've taken advantage of your kindness." 5 years later we SELL him brake pads every 5 or 6 months for his paper delivery vehicle.
Honesty and frankness pays off, for everyone involved.
good story. thanks for that.
unfortunately i think you got a mature and thoughtful person there. too many consumers are not.
minnesotasmith
07-15-2008, 17:10
I don't think you can expect a pack to carry more based on the percentage of your body weight. That's a loose guideline and not a manufacturer's spec.
They sold me a pack based upon ME, not me buying a pack based upon carrying a pre-determined packweight.
They had to have known the traditional guidelines for what % of body weight a hiker should be able to carry, or else they'd have been entirely inept at that part of their business.
Anyway, they knew what I was carrying, as they had sold most of the nonfood items to me. Only on water (3 L instead of 2) and food was Imy packweight significantly above what they figured I'd be carrying.
1) Mountain Crossings, where I bought the pack, roughly knew my body weight. I kept my pack weight within the bounds of the traditional percentage of body weight, so if there was an error, it was MC's.
You gota be kiding me right? "Roughly knew" your body weight? That transitions to their culpibility for not knowing you intended on craming everything you did into your pack?
2) There were two gross design flaws in the pack straps. First, there was a seam just below the shoulder in front that was stitched with thin, weak, water-vulnerable thread. Second, there was a strong thick flat (black, I think) plastic piece in the strap pads that was not mechanically engaged. It needed to have about 8 holes punched in it, and have threads run thru it.
2) There was someone attatched to the front of the pack who at this point obviously had no intentions to reasonbly apply any "responsibility" for having custody care and control of the product. As you stated it, you buying it was someone elses "error". I guess my car salesman owes me a new car because he didn't intisipate the gas prices, my lead foot and how many miles I would be driving. Surley I can't be expected to be responsible for that.
I repeatedly told Marmot what they needed to do to make their pack straps reliable, and they would not send me a deflawed set. All they would do is about 4 times (twice at Mountain Crossing's expense) is send me off-the-shelf, just-as-flawed straps like moronic robots. That's NOT fixing the problem. I'm done with Dana packs the rest of my life.
You really expect Marmont, or any company, to stop the factory and make YOU a set of custom straps by your specks, because YOU habitually disregarded reasonable care for the product? You honestly did not put any more aforethought into what pack you needed for a thru hike other than "they roughly new my body weight" therefore should have known what you intended to carry. Come on you can hate the pack that I can respect but what you did wasn't their fault it was yours. Every one knows you carried everything but the kitchen sink overloading your pack. Heck it was your "shtick" wasn't it?
I don't think you can expect a pack to carry more based on the percentage of your body weight. That's a loose guideline and not a manufacturer's spec.
Exactly, thats a guidline concerning how much "YOU" should carry and doe's not have anything to do with the pack. It's your responsibilty to pick a pack that can carry that much. :-?
minnesotasmith
07-15-2008, 19:03
I expected Marmot to send me a pair of pack straps that weren't defective. I also don't think they should sell pack straps to anyone that are defective. I don't believe that is an unreasonable expectation.
Frankly, I figure that I'd done half the work for them, figuring out just what they needed to do with their existing product to make it acceptable for release to the public.
Too, I've heard that Dana's products went to Hades after 1) their chief designer left, and 2) they started having their packs made cheaper (price AND quality) in some sweatshops overseas. Certainly, they're not on the level of Gregory, Arcteryx, etc., from what I've heard.
When you put 60 pounds in a pack that is designed to carry 40, problems happen. Regarding the straps, this is clearly a case of user error.
Cookerhiker
07-30-2008, 15:11
So today, 3 weeks after I shipped it, I received my thermarest pad back from Cascade Designs repaired with no charge - my only expense was costs of shipping it. As I said earlier (maybe on another thread), I've had this pad for more years than I remember and have twice sent it back for repair with nothing but excellent service from Cascade Designs (http://www.cascadedesigns.com/). A great company to do business with. They encourage sending pads to them for repair; if irrepairable, they recycle the materials. You'll find their website very easy to navigate for repair and warranty questions.
And the lesson I've learned is to be careful when lashing my pad to the pack; I think the buckles cut into the pad causing the hole. Or perhaps I hit a sharp object when setting the pack down on my Dolly Sods hike.
minnesotasmith
07-30-2008, 15:17
When you put 60 pounds in a pack that is designed to carry 40, problems happen. Regarding the straps, this is clearly a case of user error.
Seller error. They knew how much clothing weight, bag weight, etc., I had, BC they sold almost all of it to me.
===========================================
Cookerhiker, I wrapped my Tyvek groundcloth around my Thermarest before putting in on the side of my pack, and never got a puncture all hike. Maybe that would help you?
the goat
07-30-2008, 15:22
Seller error. They knew how much clothing weight, bag weight, etc., I had, BC they sold almost all of it to me.
that doesn't mean they should know you would try to carry it all with you.
i mean c'mon, you bought two pairs of gaiters too; do you think anyone in the store thought you'd be wearing both at the same time?
or carrying 2 gallons of water, six rolls of doo-doo paper, etc, etc?
Cookerhiker
07-30-2008, 15:23
.....Cookerhiker, I wrapped my Tyvek groundcloth around my Thermarest before putting in on the side of my pack, and never got a puncture all hike. Maybe that would help you?
Yes, I've done that on occasion but sometimes I'm hasty or careless or, if the groundcloth is soaking wet, I deliberately pack it separately from the sleeping pad. No more.
minnesotasmith
07-30-2008, 16:06
that doesn't mean they should know you would try to carry it all with you.
i mean c'mon, you bought two pairs of gaiters too; do you think anyone in the store thought you'd be wearing both at the same time?
or carrying 2 gallons of water, six rolls of doo-doo paper, etc, etc?
I never had more than 3 liters of water on my back until I hit the drought-ridden NJ/NY area, and that was after I'd switched out to a Gregory pack.
The TP I carried was almost always the small generic ones, of which two MIGHT make one expensive larger name-brand roll. I carried up to 6 rolls in large part BC of how long I was going between resupply points (Hiawassee to NOC, usually going 7 miles or so a day, shelter to shelter)
Oh, and the gaiters weren't on my back, so they didn't stress the pack at all.
And, yes, they knew perfectly well that all the clothes they sold me were going with me on a thruhike.
the goat
07-30-2008, 16:27
Oh, and the gaiters weren't on my back, so they didn't stress the pack at all.
i didn't mean to suggest that, but rather make the point that you have some pretty unorthodox methods that a person at a store might not assume anyone would do.
So today, 3 weeks after I shipped it, I received my thermarest pad back from Cascade Designs repaired with no charge - my only expense was costs of shipping it. .
Positive! Yeehaw!
I've only read Jack's original post. Sorry if I am saying the same thing that has been said previously.
It depends on the piece of gear and how long I've had it. For instance, my rain jacket no longer zippers, but this thing was used quite frequently on my thru and I had it for a year prior to leaving. I have no intentions of trying to return it to EMS, even though I could most likely get a free replacement if I really tried.
On the trail, I pushed outfitters to fix my Leki poles if I knew they had the ability to do so. They generally complied, although I had to work it out of a few of them. Just know that Leki warrants the POLE and not the tips.
Kirby