View Full Version : What if?
cody taylor
07-05-2008, 10:51
Just walked a small section of the AT, as my hiking partner gave up. On the first night I had a bear come into my camp just 3 miles outside Amicalola state park. A few nights later I had a bear come right up to the low gap shelter at dark. Is this uncommon? What if I had been asleep in a hammock? There was four of us there and all our bags were hung, the bear did run away after a good yelling at it and did not return but what if? Thanks
What if what? Bears are mainly only interested in an easy food source. Humans usually aren't one.
cody taylor
07-05-2008, 11:14
So I guess I'm just being a weiner about it.....it just seems a little creepy when a hungry bear comes into my campsite at dark. So it is common to see 2 bears in four days? They did run away both times. I love seeing bears in their own environment I guess I just wasn't used to it. We don't have bears in IN!
While seeing two bears in four days may not be common for all ,consider yourself very fortunate. Some people hike the entire trail without seeing one! Normally in populated bear areas you'll see food storage devices. It's best to use them. It probably goes without saying but never, ever feed a bear.
4eyedbuzzard
07-05-2008, 11:43
Regarding hammocks, that's why some call them bear pinatas:eek:;):D [joking]
Many years ago I awoke one morning to a bear right outside my tent door - as in a face to face encounter. I don't know who was more scared, me or the bear. I'm betting on me. It ran. I was petrified.
I don't live or hike down there(been over 15 years since I've been in GSMNP), but I do know bear encounters are more common in the south than they are up here - the habitat can support a lot more of them. That said, having two incidents of bears coming into your camp in a few days time is pretty uncommon. You can look at that as a blessing(wildlife viewing) or curse(bears can be dangerous), I think its honestly a bit of both.
Unfortunately there seems to be an increase lately of bears associating humans with food and acting bolder, which isn't good for either bears or humans. That the bear ran off is good, as it still would seem to have some fear.
You ain't being a weiner, bears are extremely dangerous animals. Normally they run off. But if they don't, well, potentially the outcome could be prety bad. Gotta be honest, if I had bear encounter every other day when hiking I'd definitely be carrying spray.
cody taylor
07-05-2008, 11:55
Yes, yes feeding the bears is out of the question! I do feel very fortunate to have seen a couple bears, they are awesome. Maybe I just need to trust them a little more....I should be one with the forest. :-?
I agree, it's uncommon, but it shows the importance of properly hanging your food. I had never used the bear cables like Georgia has installed until this past May. VERY simple system, seems it would be very effective, and relatively low cost.
I think every trail club/land manager who is in moderate to heavy bear areas should be installing these as a matter of course and as a top priority. Before any more shelters are built, trail is relocated, or bridges built (especially before any more shelters), these simple cable systems should be installed at EVERY shelter or developed campsite. A pro-active approach will save problems in the future. These are so simple, that there is no excuse for hikers not to use them or trail clubs not to install them.
My $0.02 worth.
cody taylor
07-05-2008, 11:58
bear pinatas?!? do people have trouble with bears while sleeping in hammocks?
Personally, I think its best to research bears through research publications on bears specific to the area you are hiking in; how many there are and how they range; how hunting effects their demographics and behaviour. This varies from one end of the AT to the other. At the end of the day the precautions are pretty much the same everywhere, but I think it makes sense to learn all you can anyway, about the woods you are hiking through. I mean, that's the main point of it all isn't it?
When I hike with my daughter I take bears and such alot more seriously. When alone I couldn't give too craps about bears, until I see one that is. I have talked to some older folks that I know and respect personally that has spent alot of time in the woods. If you hike with young children I would advise this, but if you don't I wouldn't worry so much about it. You might though. If you are still curious, then research. Research is good.
Here are some publications I have read on bears along the Fundy coast where I hike.
If you do a text search for bears on the last one you will find several.http://www.unbf.ca/forestry/centers/cwru/soe/bear1.htm
http://www.unbf.ca/forestry/centers/cwru/soe/biblio.htm
_terrapin_
07-05-2008, 11:59
Bear boxes would do the job as well. These appear to be the favored solution in the New York/New Jersey stretch.
4eyedbuzzard
07-05-2008, 12:05
bear pinatas?!? do people have trouble with bears while sleeping in hammocks?
NO! It's just a long running joke here on Whiteblaze. That's why I put the [joking] following after the sentence. People debate tents vs hammocks constantly here on WB (Whiteblaze) and it's just a long running joke is all. They're both just nylon. Whether you're in a hammock or tent or open shelter makes absolutely no difference in the situation.
Bear boxes would do the job as well.
Although I loathe to use them, bear canisters would be better, as you could camp where you please, and if I'm not mistaken are mandatory in the Caskills along with Yosemite. That said, I've never, ever had a problem sleeping with my food (where there are no food storage devices), even in troublesome areas, as I believe bears dislike human encounters.
On a side note, hanging can be defeated by a smart bear which there are many, as the food is unattended.
Bear boxes would do the job as well. These appear to be the favored solution in the New York/New Jersey stretch.
Would probably work too as long as they are large enough to accommodate all that should be hung from the shelter and surrounding campsites. Nice thing about the cables, there's always room for one more bag.:)
Boxes are probably easier to install, do they cost more? I'm not terribly familiar with them in action, just theory.
Whatever the preferred method, it should become a priority and be easy to use. SNP system leaves a lot to be desired in this last criteria.
Too many hikers are too lazy to properly hang their food, or don't know how, kinda defeats the goal of not training the bears to associate a shelter/campsite with food.
cody taylor
07-05-2008, 12:13
Very funny 4eyedbuzzard! I'm obviously fairly new to WB but I'll catch on.....I don't even have a trail name! In due time my friends. Terrapin, what is a bear box?
4eyedbuzzard
07-05-2008, 12:14
...I had never used the bear cables like Georgia has installed until this past May. VERY simple system, seems it would be very effective, and relatively low cost.
I think every trail club/land manager who is in moderate to heavy bear areas should be installing these as a matter of course and as a top priority...
I agree. I think there woul be a lot more compliance with keeping food out of immediate camping/sleeping areas if this(or bear boxes) were done. The next problem is how to get people to actually stop cooking inside shelters. I know how a few people would address this, but I'm thinking something short of getting rid of shelters entirely.
Too many hikers are too lazy to properly hang their food, or don't know how, kinda defeats the goal of not training the bears to associate a shelter/campsite with food.
Well, I think bears are always going associate humans with food, especially at a shelter or campsite, as they can smell both regardless of the device used. What will stop troublesome bears (usually national park bears) is their inability to get at the food or, for the most part, a human encounter.
cody taylor
07-05-2008, 12:21
[quote=4eyedbuzzard;659493]Regarding hammocks, that's why some call them bear pinatas:eek:;):D [joking]
I don't live or hike down there(been over 15 years since I've been in GSMNP), but I do know bear encounters are more common in the south than they are up here - the habitat can support a lot more of them. That said, having two incidents of bears coming into your camp in a few days time is pretty uncommon. You can look at that as a blessing(wildlife viewing) or curse(bears can be dangerous), I think its honestly a bit of both.
I would have to say that seeing the bears was a blessing. After seeing the first one just outside Amicalola I was so nervous I went back to my car and rearranged my gear. I dropped at least 15 lbs. of gear that I didn't need and was able to restart in the morning with an entirely different outlook. I really appreciate what seeing that bear did for me.
4eyedbuzzard
07-05-2008, 12:23
...what is a bear box?
Metal box located at campsites/shelters in which to store your food, cookware, smelly csmetics, etc to keep bears from gettng it.
Well, I think bears are always going associate humans with food, especially at a shelter or campsite, as they can smell both regardless of the device used. What will stop troublesome bears (usually national park bears) is their inability to get at the food or, for the most part, a human encounter.
Guess I should have said the goal is to not train a bear to associate shelters/campsites with "easily attainable food". If the bear can smell the food, they can also smell the human, so I don't think they are THAT adverse to a human encounter, especially if, in the past, all they had to do was grab a bag off a mouse string and run with it.
Seeing bears, along with other animals (but not quite as thrilling), has always been the highlight of any hike
I have never read this anywhere, but I think it makes sense for small children to sleep right next to the adults that are there to protect them, in the same tent if not under the same quilt. Especially if you are camping as an isolated group in the back country, like a small family of 2 or 3 or 4 without so much noise and fuss around. Even if the adult is no match for a hungry bear I think this only makes sense, to the bear at least, if not to us. May as well be prepared to fight also, even if its just a silly hatchet or a pointy stick. Better than a thumb up the butt.
I don't think they are THAT adverse to a human encounter, especially if, in the past, all they had to do was grab a bag off a mouse string and run with it.
While I agree it would be easy pickings, how many times have you seen that happen outside a NP?
Look at it this way, 99 times out of a 100 a bear will run when it sees a human. Why at night would they enter a tent? Of course, this is only theory on my part, but in many miles including griz country I've never ever had a problem
4eyedbuzzard
07-05-2008, 12:32
Guess I should have said the goal is to not train a bear to associate shelters/campsites with "easily attainable food". If the bear can smell the food, they can also smell the human, so I don't think they are THAT adverse to a human encounter, especially if, in the past, all they had to do was grab a bag off a mouse string and run with it.
Ditto on the "easily obtainable". Bears supposedly have much better smell than even a bloodhound, so obviously they can smell our food in our packs and on us even as we're just hiking along. The biggest problems seem to be in parks where they have become way too acclimated to human contact and food.
Seeing bears, along with other animals (but not quite as thrilling), has always been the highlight of any hike
100% agree with you there, most of the time it is a very welcome meeting. Only once was I mildly concerned when a bear entered our camp, but she just grabbed a garbage bag and ran off. The two biggest "bear" scares I've had actually turned out to be deer!:eek:
Usually, what you are imagining is much worse than reality.
saimyoji
07-05-2008, 12:39
I have never read this anywhere, but I think it makes sense for small children to sleep right next to the adults that are there to protect them, in the same tent if not under the same quilt. Especially if you are camping as an isolated group in the back country, like a small family of 2 or 3 or 4 without so much noise and fuss around. Even if the adult is no match for a hungry bear I think this only makes sense, to the bear at least, if not to us. May as well be prepared to fight also, even if its just a silly hatchet or a pointy stick. Better than a thumb up the butt.
Hmm..not sure what you mean about the thumb up the butt comment.....but I agree. Small children should never be alone. Ever. Too many things can go wrong; leave nothing to chance. Just like the parent who leaves the kid alone in the tub "just for a minute" to answer the phone....
While I agree it would be easy pickings, how many times have you seen that happen outside a NP?
Well, I have never seen it. I assume it has happened tho, and can further assume that with the newer design shelters, with the large covered overhang out front where everyone hangs their food, it could become even more likely.
My main point is that cables or boxes at every shelter or campsite would go a long way to encourage hikers, both long distance and weekender's, to be more responsible and thus reward fewer bears for bold behavior.
Yeah, I know what happens when you assume...:)
_terrapin_
07-05-2008, 13:10
Seeing bears, along with other animals (but not quite as thrilling), has always been the highlight of any hike
Agree on that one, though it could (I suppose) have turned out differently. As it was, it was exhilarating.
Sly, got any good stories about big cats on your hikes out west? I'm not quite sure I want to meet one up close and personal. But I've read PCT journals that describe seeing tracks and scat, and the PCT literature mentions them.
Homer&Marje
07-05-2008, 13:10
[quote=Lyle;659498]I agree, it's uncommon, but it shows the importance of properly hanging your food. I had never used the bear cables like Georgia has installed until this past May. VERY simple system, seems it would be very effective, and relatively low cost. ]
what system r u speaking of just curious... out in the berkshires i saw a great hoist that consisted of 6 locking clips on 1/8" coated wire with a single hook on an extension wire, another wire was strung 15' in the air between 2 trees supporting the hanging hooks in the middle. just attach food to hooks and pull the wire with the single hook around 1 of the trees and lock it back onto the wire. Much better than SNP with the bear poles... why would they attach the 40 lb picking bar to the bear pole, it's like playing ball-in-cup with your food bag, add darkness, 25 F temps, no gloves, and dying batteries in your headlamp it just is terrible. literally no exaggerations
Homer&Marje
07-05-2008, 13:21
I have only seen 1 bear and that was in the sierras, thing was so scared it took off at about 30 mph and was gone in 10 seconds. Dont know if i would have needed more of a prolonged stay on the bears part to enjoy it... its like sex, even if its quick its good:eek::clap shazam!
4eyedbuzzard
07-05-2008, 13:31
...After seeing the first one just outside Amicalola I was so nervous I went back to my car and rearranged my gear. I dropped at least 15 lbs. of gear that I didn't need and was able to restart in the morning with an entirely different outlook. I really appreciate what seeing that bear did for me.
Just curious, why did this affect your pack weight to this degree(15 lbs is a LOT of extra gear!)? I'm kind of hoping here you don't think you can outrun a bear. 1) They're incredibly fast, and contrary to rumors they'll outrun you downhill as well. 2) According to bear behavior experts, running may actually increase the chance the bear will view you as prey to be chased down.
Best bet: Read up a little on black bear behavior. This article is pretty good and seems to say roughly the same thing as many other experts http://www.ottawaoutdoors.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=99999999
Hmm..not sure what you mean about the thumb up the butt comment.....but I agree. Small children should never be alone. Ever. Too many things can go wrong; leave nothing to chance. Just like the parent who leaves the kid alone in the tub "just for a minute" to answer the phone....I meant it might be better to plan ahead than wait until their being dragged off into the woods. I've been wondering more and more about the merits of carrying a hiking staff, not just in terms of its usefulness, which is arguably limited, but perhaps psychologically, both in terms of how it might improve the posture and behaviour of a person in such an unlikely encounter, and how that behaviour and the presence of the long heavy object might have on the bear or stray dog or whatever. No handguns up here as you know. Anyhow, I've gotten more used to carrying a stick asd my daughter always finds one for me, usually rotten, so I'm starting to think more and more it might be a natural thing to carry, and I might as well make one.
Interesting video...
http://www.quarterstaff.org/gallery/videos/index.html
There are better martial arts videos out there, but this might be more appropriate for the everyday man on street, or man or woman on the trail. I understand it might be impractical to carry something long and heavy enough to make a real physical difference, but something 5'-6' long weighing perhaps a pound or two might me enough to give someone liek myself a little more backbone when needed. Perhaps that plus a can of bearspray, but I'm wondering if a adult with a stick might be something a bear or stray dog might be more likely to understand at a distance, plus the body language that goes with it perhaps. Not sure. So far I've been relying mostly on my size and keeping my daughter close. Having researched the matter I understand that such encounters are unlikely, but I'm also thinking more and more a stick might help, and might be something I want to carry anyway.
Came across this old thread...
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13090&page=2
Skylark mentions the quarterstaff also, with some additional links.
I think the confidence that it might give a person shouldn't be underestimated.
Not sure about night encounters so much. That's a tough one.
Here is Skylarks link...
http://cruisenews.net/backpacking/Quarterstaff.html
I think I will make one of these and carry it, more or less just as Skylark describes.
I will start off with it longer, and probably shorten it later as he did.
Thanks Skylark.
[quote=Lyle;659498]I agree, it's uncommon, but it shows the importance of properly hanging your food. I had never used the bear cables like Georgia has installed until this past May. VERY simple system, seems it would be very effective, and relatively low cost. ]
what system r u speaking of just curious...
These consist of a loop of steel cable attached high in a tree with a pulley. Along one portion of the cable are several hooks attached to fasten your food bags into. You hoist your bags up by pulling the opposite side of the cable loop until you reach the lone hook or carabiner that is permanently attached to the cable. This carabiner hooks into an eye bolt that is embedded into a near-by tree. The cable then runs diagonally between the two trees, with the food bags suspended high above ground, between them. Easy/foolproof.
They also have metal disks attached above the food attachment hooks, which I assume serve two functions, they prevent the cable from passing too far through the pulley and thus getting out of position, and it appears they are a deterrent to smaller critters such as coons or squirrels from tight-roping it down to the food.
4eyedbuzzard
07-05-2008, 17:16
Just a differing opinion here JAK: I think the notion of hitting a bear in full attack mode with a stick or staff is a poor plan. You're going to be absolutely in a panic at that moment and it's likely you'll miss or never get the opportunity. If an attack happens, and that's all you have, yeah, it's better than nothing, but it wouldn't be my defensive plan. If a bear is really going to attack, not just bluff charge, you're simply in deep doo-doo no matter what you've got defense wise. You've likely got about a second or so before it's on you. For the same weight as anything else(including a gun) if a bear attack is that much of a concern, I'd want a cannister of bear spray over anything else.
I agree it is a poor plan, in and of itself. I am just curious about the psychological merits it might offer. Wondering if you are already carrying a big stick you and your child might be less of a target to begin with, and also wondering if practicing some self defence with such a stick might make you better composed to reach for your bearspray if it came to that. What I like about it mostly is it is something I would be more likely to have handy, if I made a habit of hiking with one. I don't intend to get much practice with bear spray in my line of work. I think a hiking staff has alot of direct and indirect merits, including developing and maintaining real self-confidence, which is useful in many situations, whereas what are the odds of the bear spray actually being in my pocket if ever needed?
Perhaps something to do in camp also, to pass the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd-zuOeVMp8
Nearly Normal
07-05-2008, 21:55
That bear was doing what bears do. Looking for something to eat.
Probably smelled something good in your camp. You didn't have to be the one that caused it. There is always trash and food debris around shelters.
Seeing bears, along with other animals (but not quite as thrilling), has always been the highlight of any hike
I think the Russian river would change your mind REAL QUICK.:-?