View Full Version : I might not hike with a map
Just have a sign every few miles with a map on it and an arrow pointing & saying “you are here.”
Just have a sign every few miles with a map on it and an arrow pointing & saying “you are here.”
I believe that idea was brought up, torn apart and rejected by others who posted before including myself. In short, the map will not be in hand when needed. This thread has become sufficiently long that some readers are forgetting what they've read.
I believe that idea was brought up, torn apart and rejected by others who posted before including myself. In short, the map will not be in hand when needed. This thread has become sufficiently long that some readers are forgetting what they've read.
I made that post as a joke; I didn’t think it was a valid idea…
Maps & signs mounted all along the way would go a long way toward making it look a lot less like a wildness area.
MARKO HANGMAN III
10-28-2008, 12:17
As long as you just keep following the white blazes, you won't need a map. Save the money and the weight (you can always change your mind). A guide book is all you need. You're not going to die on the AT due to a lack of maps. Have fun!
Just have a sign every few miles with a map on it and an arrow pointing & saying “you are here.”
Reminds me of a mountain town in PA that used to have a rock with a star on it at the town line with the words "You Are Here". No name of town or any sort of map included on said rock. :D
Maps & signs mounted all along the way would go a long way toward making it look a lot less like a wildness area.
Glad to see you were paying attention to the earlier posts.
As long as you just keep following the white blazes, you won't need a map. Save the money and the weight (you can always change your mind). A guide book is all you need. You're not going to die on the AT due to a lack of maps. Have fun!
Okay, got it! :-?When I reach The Maine Junction, I'll simply continue following the white blazes.:rolleyes:
Jack Tarlin
10-28-2008, 15:06
There are better ways to save money than by not purchasing maps, and a map weighs around the same as a ziplock filled with Cheerios, so skipping them to save weight is also pretty silly.
The prudent hiker carries and uses their own maps.
And I've NEVER seen a hiker that wasn't carrying their own map turn down the opportunity to mooch a look at somebody else's.
So when they say they don't need maps, they're not being entirely honest.
They might not feel the "need" to carry their own, but they sure enjoy taking every available opportunity to look at someone else's.
This isn't being thrifty. It's being cheap and tacky.
Unlike Jack I take pride in being cheap, but I would always have my own map.
JimEcricket
11-01-2008, 00:13
I did over a 1000 miles on the AT last year. I started with maps and the "Appalachian Trail Thru-Hikers Companion''. I found that I used the Companion daily. It tells you trail distances, water, shelter, resupply towns, etc.. I never needed to consult the maps to find my way from Springer, GA to PA. There is one thing on the maps that I used quite a bit but I heard a rumor they may include it in the newer Companion, that is the profile. It gives you a visual of the elevation gain. I ended up cutting the profiles off the maps and sending them home. I hope this helps.
P.S. There is no chance that you will get lost on the AT on the first half, there are lots of people out there. You might not see too many during the day because you are all moving but when you stop at night you will have plenty of company.
JimEcricket
Can't help but wonder how much of this thread was read by the previous poster. It's not a question of whether one needs maps and only once one has finished would one know. There are plenty of other reasons to justify carrying maps besides needing them.
There is not no chance of people getting lost on the first 1/2 of the AT since we read here of those who do several times a year. My local newspaper reports someone getting lost on the AT in the county where I reside (2% of the AT) and making a 911 call requiring a response regularly, but then we're north of the AT's midpoint.
Blissful
11-01-2008, 09:05
P.S. There is no chance that you will get lost on the AT on the first half, there are lots of people out there. You might not see too many during the day because you are all moving but when you stop at night you will have plenty of company.
JimEcricket
Um...it's during the day hiking when you need the map, not a camp at night with lots of people around!!
Rockhound
11-01-2008, 09:38
I find it interesting that whiteblaze keeps running these old threads after deleting whatever posts they dont happen to agree with. mine of course was deleted because i said maps are not needed for the AT. Any one of the guidebooks are sufficient. 1)there are whiteblazes every quarter mile making it very tough to get lost. 2) in case of emergency the shortest route to town most often times is to stay on the AT and even if its not there are more hikers on the AT that would be able to lend assistance. 3) maps can be expensive (about $200 I'm told for the whole AT) and even if you get them for free, it's just extra weight. 4) the guide books do provide information regarding sidetrails/roads into towns. not as extensive as a full set of maps but if your intent is to hike the AT and not 100 sidetrails it will provide the info you need in case of emergency. 5) why spend that money on maps when GPS systems are getting cheaper every day + they can bring help to you while you stay where you are, which in most cases the best thing to do in an emergency. it sure beats hobbling down some deserted blueblaze trail on a homemade splint hoping to make it to town before you pass out.
I find it interesting that whiteblaze keeps running these old threads after deleting whatever posts they dont happen to agree with. mine of course was deleted because i said maps are not needed for the AT. Any one of the guidebooks are sufficient.
WhiteBlaze doesn't "run" threads. They come up on New Posts or Today's Posts searches when someone adds a post to an existing thread. Often, it's people who are trolling or merely repeating what's already been posted who add to them.
There's a way to fix that, but many here object to closing threads. It might be argued it serves a purpose when these older threads which often contain much good information are seen by those who have not read them before. Who knows, someone might still add something new.
Since every one of rockhound's arguments for not carrying maps has been addressed previously, I won't address them again since any new readers will surely wonder why he posted what he did and why I would respond to them when they read this post.
If you're going to do some real hiking....taking blue-blaze exits off the whiteblaze highway....you'll want a map. If all you care about is hitting the whiteblazes and don't plan to check out any of the fantastic waterfalls, campsites, views or other beautiful features the other trails lead to then you won't need a map.
If you're going to do some real hiking....taking blue-blaze exits off the whiteblaze highway....you'll want a map. If all you care about is hitting the whiteblazes and don't plan to check out any of the fantastic waterfalls, campsites, views or other beautiful features the other trails lead to then you won't need a map.
I might add two words, "most likely," before the "won't need a map." But otherwise I believe bfitz is absolutely right. I've tried to say the same things, from time to time in this debate, but not as well.
Weary
TinAbbey
11-01-2008, 18:50
i didn't look at a map except to see the elevation profiles. i discovered you go up and then you go down and then back up
I keep hoping the thread title might get changed to: "I might hike without navigation skills". I doubt that will happen even if it should.
Blissful
11-01-2008, 20:22
i didn't look at a map except to see the elevation profiles. i discovered you go up and then you go down and then back up
Well, there are a few flat sections inbetween. :)
Well, there are a few flat sections inbetween. :)
And some sharp corners where if you're not paying attention you will follow the trail of others who were not paying attention:-?:D
almostolen
11-02-2008, 18:52
so, anyone want to sell a used set of maps?
Old Wolf
11-20-2008, 03:39
I hiked it this year 2008 and all you really need is a compass to make sure your going in the right direction when you come out of the shelter or your tent in the morning to continue. You could order the 'mapdannas' at cammpmor. Its a map and a bandanna. Clean your pot, wash your feet and find your way.
I hiked it this year 2008 and all you really need is a compass ...
if everything goes according to plan. The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry.
What Old Wolf may be trying to communicate is he concluded he didn't need maps once he completed his hike. Whether someone else concludes the same remains to be seen by others who chance to repeat his experiment.
shelterbuilder
11-20-2008, 12:19
I'm curious: do the Companion and/or the guidebook show EVERY POSSIBLE water source along the trail, like the maps do, or do they omit the ones that are not frequented by hikers (or are not on blue blazed trails)?
I don't believe they do, sb.:-? They also won't help much in Pennsylvania when attempting to determine who owns or manages where you happen to be hiking and hence what regulations apply, but then to some ignorance is bliss until they must pay to learn.:rolleyes:
Maps will be obsolete in a few years.
I doubt it as the information they provide will still be useful to hikers. The information may be provided in a different form, but who will benefit financially by providing this information, will it be more or less expensive and thus within reach of those for whom it is intended and will this transfer of funds benefit the AT or other trails in any way?
Maybe in a few generations.
Analog fools unite!
Old Wolf
11-24-2008, 02:30
What I was saying is, I didn't use maps the whole time. That may not be the smart thing to do but heck, their expensive. This is an adventure your about to go on. I did have a guide book though which I found to be very helpful to plan the next days hike. You will run into folks who will be more than happy to help you out. Just go and have fun. That's whats its all about. Watch those darn rocks.
The Old Fhart
11-24-2008, 06:42
Old Wolf-"You will run into folks who will be more than happy to help you out."That translates into you rely on others to have the necessary equipment, i.e., maps. As others have said before, be self-contained, don't be a mooch.
Bare Bear
11-24-2008, 12:12
I almost always carry maps, especially in Florida where a couple weeks of growth can completely cover a path. On the AT I have never carried a map, just a guide and have never gotten 'lost' although I was pretty disoriented a couple times; walked four miles extra on an old section when I missed a turn to the 'new' AT; and where the blazes were poor and still found my way again. Of course the one time I went eight miles the wrong way was from following the locals advice that dropped me back on the Trail after Trail Days. He had a map and still screwed up. Still, I do not believe that maps are essential, but certainly good to have on the AT.
jersey joe
11-24-2008, 12:50
Anyone who watches Bear Grylls knows you don't NEED a map and compas. Just climb the tallest tree around you and you can see where you are and where you need to go. And you can make a compass out of some water, a leaf and a pin.
Jack Tarlin
11-24-2008, 13:55
Yeah, and if you watch these "survivalist" shows, they'll tell you you don't "need" a shelter, extra food, etc, as there's always something out there you can use.
Um, no.
I think this is my 10,000 post here, so I think, I'll use it to say something useful:
It's really stupid to be out in the backcountry without a current map of the terrain you're traversing. Carry the right map, and know how to use it. Don't rely on other people, and don't figure that you can always find your own way out of the woods or out of trouble. The only reason people don't carry maps is to save a handful of ounces and a few bucks. This is ridiculous. Weight isn't a factor here, and a typical map will cast you less than five bucks and wil last you the beter part of a week. Assuming you look at it just three times a day (and you may well use them more than that), then using a map wil cost you maybe a quarter a day. Considering what you get out of them, this is hardly extravagant.
That being said, thanx much to the people who provide, maintain, and moderate this great website; it's been a great pleasure to have met so many of you here, and to hopefully have helped out some of you.
Here's hoping everyone at Whiteblaze has a great holiday, and see you down
the Trail somewhere.....
Anyone who watches Bear Grylls knows you don't NEED a map and compas.
You just need to take a television crew and spend the night in a hotel room instead! :D
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6911748.stm
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07242007/news/nationalnews/grylls_thrills_bogus__expert_nationalnews_don_kapl an.htm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-470155/How-Bear-Grylls-Born-Survivor-roughed--hotels.html
..and so on.
REALITY television is usually anything but.. ;)
jersey joe
11-24-2008, 14:18
Come on guys, i was kidding about Bear Grylls. I really don't believe climbing trees is better than carrying a map.
On a serious note, carrying a map might be stupid. But I think it falls into the category of HYOH. If you want to take some more chances on your thur hike, or like the adventure, don't take a map. I would argue that hiking solo is more dangerous/stupid then not carrying a map, but plenty of people do that.
Yeah, and if you watch these "survivalist" shows, they'll tell you you don't "need" a shelter, extra food, etc, as there's always something out there you can use.
Um, no.
I think this is my 10,000 post here, so I think, I'll use it to say something useful:
It's really stupid to be out in the backcountry without a current map of the terrain you're traversing. Carry the right map, and know how to use it. Don't rely on other people, and don't figure that you can always find your own way out of the woods or out of trouble. The only reason people don't carry maps is to save a handful of ounces and a few bucks. This is ridiculous. Weight isn't a factor here, and a typical map will cast you less than five bucks and wil last you the beter part of a week. Assuming you look at it just three times a day (and you may well use them more than that), then using a map wil cost you maybe a quarter a day. Considering what you get out of them, this is hardly extravagant.
That being said, thanx much to the people who provide, maintain, and moderate this great website; it's been a great pleasure to have met so many of you here, and to hopefully have helped out some of you.
Here's hoping everyone at Whiteblaze has a great holiday, and see you down
the Trail somewhere.....
The math is a bit puzzling. But otherwise an excellent choice for post 10,000.
Weary
cameronjreed
11-24-2008, 16:11
They are kinda like guns better to have one and not need it than need one and not have it.......
Exactly my feeling (about maps, guns and knives) :rolleyes:
The Old Fhart
11-24-2008, 17:49
They are kinda like guns better to have one and not need it than need one and not have it.......They are kinda unlike bread dough: better to knead it and not half it than to half it and not knead it.......;)
Old Wolf
12-01-2008, 03:03
Take a compass and a guide book. I didn't use maps, but you could find yourself walking the wrong way and not even noticing it, believe it or not. Guide book helped me plan the next day. It has list of towns, streams and springs. When are you leaving and from where? Relax and enjoy yourself.
Yet another post from someone who has not read the entire thread?
Lone Wolf
12-01-2008, 07:33
the first post is the only one that matters
just say yes to maps :cool:
the first post is the only one that matters
Do you mean the post where bobbyw indicated he was persuaded to carry maps should be ignored? I remember quoting it before and could find it.
My ATC Trail Store Catalogue arrived in the mail on Saturday. The annual sale of maps, the data book, and official state by state AT guides ends on DEc. 22. The full set of maps, databook, and each state's guide book is $190 through December 22. After that the price rises to $224.50. Both are member only prices. The map and trail book package discount is only available to members.
The member price for just the maps is $165.
You can order -- and join -- on line by opening www.atctrailstore.org
For a printed copy of the catalogue email sales@appalachiantrail.org or call 888ATSTORE.
Annual memberships are $35, though you can pay more if you wish.Members of trail maintaining clubs, those 65 or older, or under 18 get a $5 discount to $30.
Section hikers can buy just the states and sections they are interested in at varying prices.
Weary
Take a compass and a guide book. I didn't use maps, but you could find yourself walking the wrong way and not even noticing it, believe it or not. Guide book helped me plan the next day. It has list of towns, streams and springs. When are you leaving and from where? Relax and enjoy yourself.
Please don't take a compass if you are not carrying a map. Having just a compass is worse than having nothing, actually. Since the trail meanders and often times runs west, east and even south, using a compass without an reference point can have really negative impacts. Because you will have a false sense of security, this will effect your decision making.
Instead of, for example, heading back and re-tracing your steps, you might decide to head north to the nearest road. Except if you are in a section where north takes you deeper into the woods and away from any kind of road should you need help.
Again, for 90% of the trail, you can hike without "needing" a map. For most people, the other 10% of the time when you would "need" a map, this means getting lost and wasting half a day or so trying to figure out where you are. But if you or someone you are hiking with gets hurt and you need to find not only the quickest but best way out to a road, having a good map is essential. If you get stuck in a snowstorm down south or up north, having a map is essential.
I know that hundreds of people have hiked the entire AT without maps and survived. I know that for most days you'll never "need" to look at your map to get from one place to the other. But as someone who lives in NH and is very familiar with one of the more dangerous sections of the trail, I know that you CAN die because you don't have a map. Admittedly its a very low percentage of hikers that die, but its also not a rare occurrence.
I'll conclude with a couple of points to consider to hopefully convince some people that maps and a compass should always be carried when in the woods:
1) In New Hampshire, if you require a rescue off the mountains and do not have a map and compass, you will be charged for the cost of the rescue. It is a state law.
2) If you are hiking and break your leg, and its cold and wet, do you want to have to wait an extra 4 or 5 hours for your hiking partner to go get help because you don't have a map and don't know the best way out to the road?
1) In New Hampshire, if you require a rescue off the mountains and do not have a map and compass, you will be charged for the cost of the rescue. It is a state law.
recent example:
http://www2.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO95417/
but they did have a cell phone.....:rolleyes:
Plodderman
12-01-2008, 13:49
I would take map. 1. It is fun tolook at when at the shelter. 2. In case of emergencies you could find a side trail. 3. Pride cometh before the fall.
Rockhound
12-01-2008, 15:53
maps can be difficult to fold and are a leading cause of paper cuts. weight and cost are not the only reasons not to carry maps
Folding maps and avoiding paper cuts helps hikers keep their minds sharp! Everyone knows the most important gear is between a hiker's ears. Some are better equipped than others who need all the help they can get.;)
Since we know what a set of A.T. maps costs and that it is but a small expenditure compared with the total cost of an A.T. through hike which can be offset by selling the maps afterwards, someone should weigh an entire set of maps to the nearest gram and post its weight for us. Then we could point out quantitively how silly that point is too.
Please don't take a compass if you are not carrying a map. Having just a compass is worse than having nothing, actually.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you, if only because a tried and true method of finding your way out of the woods if truly lost is to walk in a straight line (or as straight as possible given the topography) in any one direction. If you do that eventually you will hit a road/trail/river/powerlines, especially on the east coast where population density is pretty high. May not be the fastest way out, but it's better than nothing. And considering how easy it is to think you're walking in a straight line but aren't really when you don't have a compass, a compass is always more useful than no compass.
Jack Tarlin
12-01-2008, 17:21
Actually, there are plenty of places even in the East where you can walk for miles and miles and not hit anything. Maine, for example. Or you may well hit a river that's impassable and you'd have no idea whether to go right or left when you got there. Hiking without a map is like hiking blind. It's just not that bright a thing to do and why people keep insisting that it's perfectly swell to hike mapless escapes me. This is rotten advice to give, plain and simple.
Maine, for example. Or you may well hit a river that's impassable and you'd have no idea whether to go right or left when you got there. Hiking without a map is like hiking blind.That happened to me this summer at the Carrabassett river. We camped down by the river and it poured all night. The next morning the plank was turned sideways. We ditched on the logging road and got a ride around to Saddleback. The first thing I did after I saw the river up was check my map.
joshua5878
12-01-2008, 17:51
That happened to me this summer at the Carrabassett river. We camped down by the river and it poured all night. The next morning the plank was turned sideways. We ditched on the logging road and got a ride around to Saddleback. The first thing I did after I saw the river up was check my map.
Can you buy maps as you go??? ie from state to state??
_terrapin_
12-01-2008, 17:57
Can you buy maps as you go??? ie from state to state??
That's a bit iffy. The best maps are those distributed by the ATC and its member clubs. Occasionally you can find them in outfitters' stores (eg. REI, EMS and similar, smaller stores) but they might just be out-of-stock of the map you need (or the copy they have might be a bit old.) Another thing: buying the complete set (from ATC) is a lot less expensive than buying them individually.
Actually, there are plenty of places even in the East where you can walk for miles and miles and not hit anything. Maine, for example. Or you may well hit a river that's impassable and you'd have no idea whether to go right or left when you got there. Hiking without a map is like hiking blind. It's just not that bright a thing to do and why people keep insisting that it's perfectly swell to hike mapless escapes me. This is rotten advice to give, plain and simple.
I said nothing about hiking without a map. Nothing. I said you should hike with a compass, because even that alone is better than nothing.
_terrapin_
12-01-2008, 18:14
I said nothing about hiking without a map. Nothing. I said you should hike with a compass, because even that alone is better than nothing.
I agree. A compass without a map isn't quite worthless. It enables you to walk in a constant direction in lieu of a visual reference -- and that alone may be worth something. In other words, it may keep you from walking around in circles.
Blissful
12-01-2008, 20:15
Can you buy maps as you go??? ie from state to state??
There's enough outfitters along the way that you probably could, until you get up north. But like Terrapin said, you take a chance they are available. Plus you would have to buy several of them at once for the state you are in or approaching (for instance, PA has like eight maps or so). Better to buy before the hike and mail them to yourself.
The link from Ed Bell above changed my mind - I am saving lots of weight in other ways, as an ex Search & Rescue person, absolutely take maps. Plus, it makes things more interesting.
I agree. A compass without a map isn't quite worthless. It enables you to walk in a constant direction in lieu of a visual reference -- and that alone may be worth something. In other words, it may keep you from walking around in circles.
Anyone ever pulled a circle? Humbling.
a friend got lost in Ak. He went down a game trail in a very confusing part of the hike. it was awful weather and easy to get confused. He did fine and was located 3 days later. He grabbed a garbage bag before he left and that saved he and his buddies' life. The weather was so awful that he could'nt find a land mark... but, when it cleared he did know where he was.
sheepdog
12-02-2008, 08:29
I always carry a deck of cards. If I get lost I stop and play solitair. After about 5 minutes some clown always comes along and says "you can play the red three on the black four." I then ask for directions.
lol sheepdog..we used to carry cards alot. I have played ALOT of rummy. it was fun. How is the pup doing ?
Anyone ever pulled a circle? Humbling.
pulled one of those(circles) early this summer.
Left the white blaze to check out a scenic blueblaze, bout a thousand feet later the trail ended in a bramble at a waterfall. Instead of backtracking, decided to hit the whiteblaze below where i left it in the direction i had been heading.
Climbing out of the river valley thought it strange that the roar of the stream got louder, hit the trail, looked around and found myself almost exactly
where i left it, at the trail intersection:o humbling? yea, just a lil.:D
sheepdog
12-02-2008, 08:59
lol sheepdog..we used to carry cards alot. I have played ALOT of rummy. it was fun. How is the pup doing ?
Gowing like a weed and a great hiker. We get in 2-4 miles a day. It helps keep him mellow around the house.
Nice ! yeah, the exercise keeps them mellow. My dogs are all getting old... it will be a sad day for me. I will miss them so much.
buzzamania
01-09-2009, 13:06
Maps are particularly handy when hiking at night! It's easy to get turned around. The weight sacrifice is minimal. I'm with Bearpaw. The landmarks and the perspective make it all more interesting. You never know when you may need to use it as fire tender.
A very wise person once gave me some good advice--advice that can be applied to so many different situations--including the map issue:
"It is better to have it (and not need it) than to need it (and not have it)."
Old Wolf
01-12-2009, 16:46
The trail is well blazed. You will need a guide book. I had two, the " Appalachian Pages" and the " AT Trail Guide" I also had a compass and I checked it in the morn to make sure I was heading the right way. PA map, for instance, is useless. It's a joke actually. Your going to get lost once in a while. Just use common sense and turn around and go back. Its not that difficult. Relax and take your time. Enjoy your hike. Don't beat yourself up if you feel like quitting either. I asked myself everyday, "What the hell did I get myself into." You will love the trail and it will always call you. It's an adventure you will never forget.
Old Wolf
01-12-2009, 16:48
Also, I believe it was mentioned on here. Maps are the number one cause of paper cuts. Be careful out there.
Jack Tarlin
01-12-2009, 17:22
When did you hike?
The PA maps used to be horrible, but they have been extensively and beautifully re-done and are among the best presently available.
When did you hike?
The PA maps used to be horrible, but they have been extensively and beautifully re-done and are among the best presently available.
Haven't seen them, but I don't care for the new NJ-NY maps. They are road maps with a red trail line through them.
Jack Tarlin
01-12-2009, 17:35
They have also been recently re-done.
Haven't seen them, but I don't care for the new NJ-NY maps. They are road maps with a red trail line through them.
Yeah, they'd benefit from having the colors of the trail blazes on the side trails listed. As someone who uses the AT in that section to do a lot of circuit hikes and focuses more on the side trails, the AT maps are kinda useless. Gotta get the other NYNJTC maps for more detail. Fine for thru-hikers and whiteblazers.
TicTacTony
12-09-2009, 23:32
I really can't believe that anyone would consider hiking without a map. There are so many reasons to justify their need and the reasons NOT to are just what exactly? Weight? Money? I've hiked all over the US and parts of Europe and cannot begin to imagine going on any of these ventures without a map of some kind. Only ignorance would lead one to believe otherwise.
I'm thru hiking the Trail again in 2010 and will (again) be using maps. I have a friend who is tagging along with me and I required that he get a set of his own as well. The fact that we're having this conversation truly underscores the lack of responsibility people have these days. -Always expecting someone else to bail them out.
TicTacTony, chill out dude. We're talking about the AT. Should you have maps? yes. Do you need maps? Heck no.
Compass and guidebook is all you need.
TicTacTony, chill out dude. We're talking about the AT. Should you have maps? yes. Do you need maps? Heck no.
Compass and guidebook is all you need.
Actually, it would probably be best to clarify what "heck no" means relative to the answer of "yes" that you gave to the question: "Should you have maps?". If you don't want to give a clear answer, then it's probably best to avoid trying.
Actually, it would probably be best to clarify what "heck no" means relative to the answer of "yes" that you gave to the question: "Should you have maps?". If you don't want to give a clear answer, then it's probably best to avoid trying.
If you are out hiking (anywhere) you should always have a map and compass, however, the AT is so well defined and blazed that you really don't need one...in my opinion. I've only done the first 700 miles of the trail but there was not one time when I needed a map in any way. Now, the guide book (Appalachian Pages in my case) I used several tiems every day. I might also add, I purchased the maps and carried them to Hot Springs before deciding to send them home. Although if I'd listened to Winton Porter at Neels Gap I could have saved some weight, he strongly advised me that they weren't required.
"Should" you carry maps on the AT = Yes
Do you "need" maps on the AT = No (IMHO)
TicTacTony, chill out dude. We're talking about the AT. Should you have maps? yes. Do you need maps? Heck no.
Compass and guidebook is all you need.
Between a compass and a map on the AT I'd pick the map.
But, with the disclaimer that a compass is extremely useful if you ever have a brain fart and wonder if you went in the right direction.
It sounds like it could never happen, but it happened to me at Tricorner Knob shelter in the fog during snowstorm.... I hiked for an hour and almost talked myself into thinking I was hiking in the wrong direction and was about to turn around. Then I remembered I had a compass and quickly found out I was going in the right direction after all.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you don't need anything until you need it. Then you need it.
garlic08
12-10-2009, 10:52
The best response to this endless question I've ever seen was something I saw on yet another maps thread, where someone replied, "If you have to ask whether you need maps on the AT, then you need maps on the AT." Brilliant! That should end the discussion (but it won't).
ShelterLeopard
12-10-2009, 11:11
TicTac, I think RP said it best- chill out.
I personally always hike with a map, unless it's a section I know like the back of my hand. And I think there are a number of very good reasons to carry a map. Emergency, convenience, ability to not say you're out of breath "Wait, I need to... look at my map", and I just like seeing the features of the area. Same reason I just bought a bird and plant guide.
I'll admit, occasionally it'll annoy me a tiny bit when some UL hiker keeps asking to see my map because he didn't want to carry his. But really? I don't care.
The best response to this endless question I've ever seen was something I saw on yet another maps thread, where someone replied, "If you have to ask whether you need maps on the AT, then you need maps on the AT." Brilliant! That should end the discussion (but it won't).
That is good.
As in the future I'd guess more of us will bring some sort of smartphone on the trail --- i.e., a phone that includes other bits of functionality --- an approach that I plan to use this coming year is to bring no paper maps but have USGS maps on my (GPS enabled) phone. I also already have road (car) oriented GPS software on it, which could occasionally help in getting to/from the trail and in general giving a different view on "where the heck am I" should that be needed.
Yes, a standard knee-jerk reaction is that we shouldn't rely solely on an electronic device for navigation, and in general I agree with this, but like all backpacking gear considerations it's about making wise trade-offs. Given how easy the AT is reputed to be, how many road crossings, how many places one encounters clear landmarks (shelters for one ...), it seems to me to be a good trade-off, particularly given how many hiking miles I have with this phone already. Hopefully it will be a win-win, I'll have both a complete and searchable pdf guidebook (Companion) and better maps than most, at no weight penalty for a phone that's also my camera, journaling device, internet access, voice recorder, and book reader.
I'm not advocating this for everyone (!), but for those already carrying a phone that has a GPS built in, you might at least consider it. For those crazy enough to consider buying a phone specifically to use in this way, I put together some selection criteria ideas for that here (http://postholer.com/smartPhone.html).
No doubt many USGS maps haven't been updated in years and do not show the current location of the AT.
True for the USGS map data itself, but the overall landforms haven't changed much, and my trail overlay doesn't come from the underlying USGS map, but from elsewhere (I forget the source now, I think there are multiple).
Blissful
12-10-2009, 13:07
however, the AT is so well defined and blazed that you really don't need one...
HA!
We got lost several times...and I had a map...
And I love the blazing in PA - white can mean AT or the game lands.
And there are many places the AT is not blazed b/c it is wilderness.
And try seeing a well defined blaze with fresh snow blown against on the tree or blazes on trees that have been blown down.
I don't chill out when death is on the line... (for Shelter Leopard)
I forget the source now, I think they're multiple.
I've found thinking sometimes to be not unlike assuming.
334 replies. What's the consensus?
Of course, a tall ship, a star and these items below may work....
http://www.brasscompass.com/sextcaptain1.jpg
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/sis25/images/objects/03-2%20theodolite-250.jpg
Can we do cell phones now?
The best response to this endless question I've ever seen was something I saw on yet another maps thread, where someone replied, "If you have to ask whether you need maps on the AT, then you need maps on the AT." Brilliant! That should end the discussion (but it won't).
Yeah, some really smart guy said that...
The simple answer is, if you have to ask, you should carry them.
Oh wait ;) :sun :p
Ive never owned a map, but I've looked at other peoples' a few times. I'd have to say in many years of hiking I'v never had an experience that made me decide to go out and buy one. So, I'm sure you'll be fine. Some people will hate you for it, they can't help themselves. And one person, whom you will eventually meet, will force you to take one of his for a section you're going through, insisting it's something you desperately need. Politely accept his offer and send the map to the next mail drop where you can then return it and thank him. It's called humoring someone.
white_russian
12-10-2009, 18:47
Can we do cell phones now?
No, completely against trail etiquette. Just don't pay attention to the errie glow coming from my tent. ;)
Chaco Taco
12-10-2009, 19:01
Only time we carried a map was in The Whites and Maine. Other than that, guidebook. You dont need maps on the Appalachian Trail
Lone Wolf
12-10-2009, 19:29
You dont need maps on the Appalachian Trail
you or your loved one weren't severely injured on your hike so you didn't have know the quickest way out of the mtns. poor planning on your part. you'd a been jonesin' for a map otherwise
Lone Wolf
12-10-2009, 19:30
Only time we carried a map was in The Whites and Maine.
why?..........
Jack Tarlin
12-10-2009, 19:40
Why?
Because those are really lousy places to get lost. :D
If Wolf was a New Englander and not a Virginian, this post would be un-necessary.
Lone Wolf
12-10-2009, 19:45
Why?
Because those are really lousy places to get lost. :D
If Wolf was a New Englander and not a Virginian, this post would be un-necessary.
yo jack. i was questioning why chaco only carried maps in NH and ME. one can get very lost in the 12 other states of the AT
Jack Tarlin
12-10-2009, 19:50
I stand very properly corrected.
If Wolf is suggesting that it's a good idea to carry maps everywhere on the A.T., well he's absolutlely right, and I agree with him 100%.
Lone Wolf
12-10-2009, 19:52
I stand very properly corrected.
If Wolf is suggesting that it's a good idea to carry maps everywhere on the A.T., well he's absolutlely right, and I agree with him 100%.
yes jack, that is what i'm suggesting. i practice what i preach in this case
Jack Tarlin
12-10-2009, 19:57
In re. to an above post, yeah Bfitz is the perfect example of the cheap bastard who cheerfully acknowledges that he'd never spend a dime on a map, but who will very happily look at YOURS around nine times a day.
And in that I've let him do this for years, I should probably stop complaining about it. :D
Chaco Taco
12-10-2009, 21:36
you or your loved one weren't severely injured on your hike so you didn't have know the quickest way out of the mtns. poor planning on your part. you'd a been jonesin' for a map otherwise
Really??????:D We are talking about the AT right???
One time in Maine I got lost for two days trying to take a blue blaze to a logging road. Came out about a mile down the road from where I went in. Had a map with me that time. So did the others I was with. It was wrong.
One time in Maine I got lost for two days trying to take a blue blaze to a logging road. Came out about a mile down the road from where I went in. Had a map with me that time. So did the others I was with. It was wrong.
Well, bfitz, maps certainly keep one from getting lost, rare as that is. But more importantly, they keep curious hikers alert and hiking -- and on the trail.
This is not a trail that was designed to be conquered. Rather it is a trail to be enjoyed. And much of that enjoyment by us interested in such things, is the nature of the trail, the things to be seen along the trail, the hills, the likely walks tomorrow, the interesting things we should look for. Maps provide at least hints as to where interesting things are likely.
But what do I know.
Weary
It's been my experience that the more folks understand, appreciate and utilize map skills, the more likely they will always carry a map regardless of where they are hiking. I've been around plenty of folks who can't make heads or tails of one and out of frustration they don't make any effort to improve their understanding.
I once overheard a young soldier asking an old First Sergeant: "Do I really need to pack this piece of equipment?" That First Sergeant's answer has always stuck in my head. He said: "It is better to HAVE IT--and not need it. Than to NEED it--and not have it!". I like that advice. So, personally, I'd take a map.
An approach that I plan to use this coming year is to bring no paper maps but have USGS maps on my (GPS enabled) phone..... Hopefully it will be a win-win, I'll have both a complete and searchable pdf guidebook (Companion) and better maps than most, at no weight penalty for a phone that's also my camera, journaling device, internet access, voice recorder, and book reader.
And, if it is ever dropped, lost, stolen, gets overly wet, suffers a "melt down" or the battery dies, you will suddenly be without your map, guidebook, GPS, phone, camera, journaling device, internet access, voice recorder, and book reader.
Personally, I would not be comfortable putting "all my eggs in one (electronic) basket"--especially outdoors in all kinds of weather.
Personally, I would not be comfortable putting "all my eggs in one (electronic) basket"--especially outdoors in all kinds of weather.Per previous, on most other trails I wouldn't either, it's about making reasonable trade-offs and assessing risk vs. reward. And making a risk trade-off isn't the same as making one badly --- we all make risk trade-offs every time we backpack or do a host of other things. If we didn't, then, for example, we would all be carrying pounds of medical equipment just in case ...
In this case it's factoring in the arguments from those who say "no map is okay on this trail" and combining that with about 3000 trail miles that I've carried this same smartphone with quite good reliability. For most of it, I think, the AT is not like a more remote trail where a person left without navigation aids is automatically screwed, between the frequent white blazes, frequent road crossings, and frequency with which other hikers are passing by. On the PCT in 2008 I think there was one single day where I didn't see at least one other person; AT is certainly much more populated.
If the weight and convenience of this wasn't significant, I'd certainly carry paper maps and guidebook. It's about being relatively untethered from specific and frequent post office or other mail drop stops, and not carrying a lot of weight of paper.
I guess a final point here is that if once on the trail my sense is that in fact I'd rather have maps, there will likely be places along the way I can buy them, and/or have my wife buy and mail them to me.
I'm not looking to convince anyone or change their minds, and certainly not to argue (!). As always I hope on these forums it's about sharing ideas, considering what we're doing and why we're doing it, and thinking about the approaches that others choose. Despite some experience at backpacking, I've made a few gear changes over the last couple of months as a result of reading and pondering ideas from others, so I'm always grateful for input/feedback.
"And, if it is ever dropped, lost, stolen, gets overly wet, suffers a "melt down" or the battery dies, you will suddenly be without your map, guidebook, GPS, phone, camera, journaling device, internet access, voice recorder, and book reader."
Oops, final point here, of the above functionality the map is the only one that I could consider at all essential, so while all of the other functions are "nice to have", I don't consider the risk of losing them to be significant.
So what is the trail etiquette when it comes to requests to borrow a map? After listening to the maps or no maps thread for a while, maps sounded pretty important. So I just spent $250 on maps and books. And I must say I feel irked by the I can't afford the money or the weight folks who are willing to ask for someone else's map. I can't afford the weight or money either. I kinda makes me think of I don't want the expense of weight of carrying food please let me have 1/2 of yours.
It feels rude to say no to such a request but if you do not want to carry maps live with it. Maybe there is just no way to refuse a request without appearing rude something I'll just have to live with I guess.
Wise Old Owl
12-12-2009, 22:43
So what is the trail etiquette when it comes to requests to borrow a map? After listening to the maps or no maps thread for a while, maps sounded pretty important. So I just spent $250 on maps and books. And I must say I feel irked by the I can't afford the money or the weight folks who are willing to ask for someone else's map. I can't afford the weight or money either. I kinda makes me think of I don't want the expense of weight of carrying food please let me have 1/2 of yours.
It feels rude to say no to such a request but if you do not want to carry maps live with it. Maybe there is just no way to refuse a request without appearing rude something I'll just have to live with I guess.
Bryce there is a huge difference between what is written here on the internet and the face to face interactions on the trail. Eveybody has an opinion and yet we all have a good time on the trail.
ShelterLeopard
12-12-2009, 23:44
Owl is right- people like to vent their frustration here and go on about what they hate, but they're not nearly like what they seem to be here, on the trail. It occasionally annoys me when people ask all the time to see my maps, but whatever. Not like they're going to get worn out or anything.
Old Wolf
12-18-2009, 02:13
So, what you're saying is, anyone who doesn't believe carrying those useless maps are not capable of reading maps, that that correct? Question is, whats so hard about following white blazes? The trail is so well marked its ridiculous. The maps are a total waste of money. Trail guide books and a compass are good enough unless you're mentally challenged or a weekend section hiker with an opinion?
ShelterLeopard
12-18-2009, 10:35
So, what you're saying is, anyone who doesn't believe carrying those useless maps are not capable of reading maps, that that correct? Question is, whats so hard about following white blazes? The trail is so well marked its ridiculous. The maps are a total waste of money. Trail guide books and a compass are good enough unless you're mentally challenged or a weekend section hiker with an opinion?
I don't think anyone said that, though I may not have read all the posts...
A- In snow, the blazes can be very difficult to see (as they, like snow, are white)
B- In an emergency, you can look at the map and find a logging road that leads out, to take a quicker route to the main road.
C- In PA, the hunting blazes are very similar to the AT ones, albeit much more like a blob than a rectangle.
I'd rather have maps than guidebooks.
[quote=ShelterLeopard;935512]
B- In an emergency, you can look at the map and find a logging road that leads out, to take a quicker route to the main road.
quote]
I hear peolple say this all the time...Our local Unaka Mountain search and rescue has a different view on this....
As soon as you leave the trail to go off on your own, you may be on your own for a long time. [ask the kid in NH].
Lets say you brake a leg...You get your map out and notice a road 3 miles away...there is a logging road 3/4 of a mile away that will take you to this road. You now head cross country...Is this a mistake?.....Lets say it took 4 hours to go 3/4 of a mile because of all the bad terrain and undergrowth. After 5 more hours you're only 1 mile farther and unable to go any farther...You were trying to cross a downed tree and fell again. This time you turn your broken leg into a compound fracture. You start losing blood everywhere...Not only that but you broke your wrist on the fall from trying to cross that downed tree.......After getting passed the tree and round the bend there is a creek with the bridge out and no way to cross it......
Meanwhile, back on the AT.....6 hikers have passed the spot where you got off. Anyone of them could have ran out the 6 miles to the nearest road crossing and wave down some help. Help has returned in 3 1/2 hours.....
ShelterLeopard
12-18-2009, 10:58
I never said to head across country- with a broken leg? Nooo. I mean that you can look at the map, and find a logging road that intersects with the trail, and follow it out. Just don't get hit by those logging trucks- they go fast.
I suspect we can all imagine scenarios in which a map proves harmful. But I've drifted off the trail from time to time. A map has usually helped me find my bearings. Never once has a map caused me to break a leg, turned that leg into a compound fracture, and resulted in a broken wrist, while delaying my rescue by hours.
I've only once needed to be rescued. That was as a 16-year-old on a hunting trip in northern Maine. We didn't have a map. We did have a compass, which we used to reach a road. Only problem was our leader kept his compass too close to his rifle and lead us on a 5 mile loop. By that time it was dark and snowing hard. So we built a fire and waited until morning. That was our plan anyway. About 1 a.m. the rescuers showed up.
Two people died that night. One of the bodies was found five years later.
Oh I forgot. What I meant to say is that regardless of whether a map is ever needed, a map makes a trail more interesting for us curious types. I like to know where on the face of the earth I am. The names of the mountains, and valleys I can see, the towns visible from the ridgelines ... all kinds of interesting things. Carrying a map keeps me from getting bored.
Weary
ShelterLeopard
12-18-2009, 11:23
Agree with Weary- I just like looking at maps, as well as having it in case of emergency. Same reason I like to carry wildlife guides.
Wow. So I'm new here and I've got questions about a thru-hike but if I just read and read and read through lotsa threads in this forum, I'm findin' most of the answers!
This was one of the questions I had -- do I need maps on the AT? There's no consensus, it looks like half say "Nope, no need" and half say "In case of emergency, you should have maps."
Berry berry interestin'. Being that I'm going to attempt a Fall->Winter hike, I'm not sure.
Wow. So I'm new here and I've got questions about a thru-hike but if I just read and read and read through lotsa threads in this forum, I'm findin' most of the answers!
This was one of the questions I had -- do I need maps on the AT? There's no consensus, it looks like half say "Nope, no need" and half say "In case of emergency, you should have maps."
Berry berry interestin'. Being that I'm going to attempt a Fall->Winter hike, I'm not sure.
Fall and winter hikes definitely need maps. Falling leaves in autymn obscure the trail, as does winter snows. IN addition wet winter snows obscure blazes.
And as I've said, maps in any season make a trail more interesting. Most of us only do a long distance trail once. Maps help make the most of a very unique opportunity, even when they don't help us find our way.
Weary
Trailbender
12-19-2009, 18:19
Maps are ok, I guess. The main kit I would never do without is a magnesium firestarter and some kind of knife.
Graywolf
12-19-2009, 18:31
I remember a few months back I asked a question concerning waterfalls on the AT..or close to it..Lots of the answers were, "I don't know", or "Can't remeber off hand, I don't have a map"...etc, etc...So now I know why I had those answers...No one carries maps.... So now, instead of asking "AT knowlegable" hikers about the trail, I now just look at the maps... I get more straight forward answers that way...
Maps are our friend...
Graywolf
"Maps are our friend."
Your so right Graywolf. If I get the privilege of hiking the AT, I would carry them just to see what wonders might be lurking a couple of hundred yards off the trail. :)
reddenbacher
12-19-2009, 19:32
being they guy with the maps was always a pain because,no maps were the first to wheres this wheres than can i see your map,i sure would like to get an idea of the elevation,how far to the next trail head?but they dont need maps just yogi them.
I spent 10 days this summer hiking at Isle Royale National Park (located on an island in Lake Superior). Prior to the trip, I spent my money purchasing a "decent" map that was very detailed and which had a bit of a weather-resistant protective coating on it. I planned my trip with that map and brought it with me on my hike.
At a campsite, I ran into a guy who was bragging about his great hiking skills, his wonderful prior hiking trips on three different continents and boasting how light his pack was. He showed me his fancy GPS and some other high tech (ultra-light weight) equipment.
I met him again a few days later on the the trail. He stopped me and asked ME if I knew where he was currently located! He had apparently dropped his expensive, light weight, GPS down a rocky hillside in a rainstorm and it had stopped working. His cheap paper "tourist brochure map" (provided by the National Park Service) had gotten soaked in the rain and had crumbled into an unreadable mess. He had spent the previous night "lost" in the woods and he was now located several miles away from where he thought he was.
I got out MY large, weather-sealed, greatly detailed map--and I showed him where he was currently located and the direction he needed to hike in order to reach his chosen destination.
He actually had the guts to ask me if he could HAVE my map. He seemed to think that he was somehow ENTITLED to that type of help from me--because his GPS was now broken and his cheap paper map was destroyed by rain. (He had actually told me that plastic bags were "too much extra weight and too much extra bulk"). Needless to say, I didn't give him my good map.
(But, nice guy that I am, I DID give him one of the two National Park Service brochure maps that I had stored in a PLASTIC BAG in my pack. I was carrying the free maps as a back up plan just in case something had happened to my good map).
My point: This guy had (allegedly) hiked numerous miles on three different continents. He had lots of expensive equipment--including a nice, light-weight, GPS. However, after dropping his GPS in a rainstorm he was lost and out-of-luck. It is my opinion, that there really is no good substitute for carrying detailed maps (ideally maps with protective coatings on them). You should also carry a good compass with you.
Sometimes, you can pack TOO LIGHT--and it can endanger your health and safety!
As that ultra-light weight, high tech, "gram counter" discovered on Isle Royale: "It is better to have it--and not need it. Than to need it, and not have it!"
There's no consensus...
A consensus does not require everyone to be 100% in agreement. There is a consensus on this issue despite what some would have others believe. Some take pleasure in prolonging discussions and repeating what's been posted already.
It may be a little known fact many whose mantra is "you don't need maps" also believe maildrops are unnecessary. Start with one idea or the other, end up believing in both and repeating the mantra.:-?
Blissful
12-19-2009, 22:57
"Maps are our friend."
And hero and lifesaver....
jersey joe
12-19-2009, 22:58
Hiking alone is more dangerous than not carrying a map, but people who say maps are a must have have no problem hiking alone.
if you get lost and search and rescue has to come find you and you don't have a map, it should be acceptable for them to leave your dumb ass out there.
shaggy2004
12-20-2009, 00:31
It may be a little known fact many who believe they don't need maps and tell others they don't know and have never met "you don't need maps" also believe maildrops are unnecessary.
That's me. I didn't carry maps on either of my hikes and only got maybe one mail drop (and that was my warmer jacket for NH and ME).
I'm seriously not saying that that's the right way to do things, but if I hiked again, I'd do it again. If I ever got "lost" it was never by more than maybe a couple of hundred yards down the wrong trail before I got suspicious and backtracked. I should say that I actually started hiking with a map and decided I didn't need it by Neels Gap. A huge part of it was the hassle of having to constantly get the next map for the section coming up, meaning I would have to have a mail drop in practically every town since the maps are typically only good for 50 - 100 miles at most (I could be wrong, just thinking of the couple I own) The alternative would be to buy as I go from outfitters (expensive/not an outfitter every place you need a new map) or carry a bunch of maps at a time (bulky/heavy).
Why I don't personally carry or think maps for a thru-hiker are absolutely necessary.:
-The trail is extremely well marked with only a few exceptions here and there. You do have to be mindful in the White's where there are a lot of intersecting trails and the AT isn't always called the AT (older trails the AT is routed on take precedence with their original names)
-Most of the AT is not that remote. I know a place doesn't have to be remote for someone to get lost. Plenty of people get lost in the city park near where I live all the time. But seriously, getting dangerously lost on the AT (assuming you're in at least decent shape and carrying an overnight pack/gear) isn't likely, maybe with the exception of Maine. Keep walking in any direction and you're going to hit a road pretty quickly.
-The popular guidebooks tell you more than enough to get by without a map. They list water sources, shelters, road crossings, summits, points of interest, etc. with more detail than you would get from the ATC maps. In fact the guidebooks (I used wingfoot at the time - not endorsing, just saying) seem to give more potential water sources with a better description of what they are (ie. spring, stream, pump, cistern, whatever)
Let me reapeat! I'm not telling anyone not to carry maps. But not carrying maps is a way that A LOT of thru-hikers have perfectly safely and happily gotten from one end of the trail to the other. It's definitely a personal decision. I felt totally comfortable without them. I too very much enjoy knowing where I'm going and where I've come from when I'm on top of a mountain looking out. Most of the time I could pretty easily figure this out by looking in the guidebook for the distance to the next peak and it's elevation and getting some bearing of direction from the sun. (I'm not claiming some super sense of direction or anything but you get a feel for it once you've been out for a while).
If you enjoy having maps or feel better having maps, then by all means take them, but please don't insist that those who do not are in some way ignorant, foolhardy, or don't know what they're doing.
-
i will insist anyway, regardless of what you want. so there. you would not believe (obviously) how many ways there actually are of getting turned around on a "well-marked" trail. a map, and knowledge of how to use it, could save your life and lessen the risk others will have to take on your behalf when you get lost. it's just the responsible thing to do, whether you think you're going to need it or not.
Graywolf
12-20-2009, 13:15
A consensus does not require everyone to be 100% in agreement. There is a consensus on this issue despite what some would have others believe. Some take pleasure in prolonging discussions and repeating what's been posted already.
It may be a little known fact many whose mantra is "you don't need maps" also believe maildrops are unnecessary. Start with one idea or the other, end up believing in both and repeating the mantra.:-?
Except for a few sections, I don't consider maildrops, BUT I still take maps..I have always enjoyed maps and have maps from all over the world..
If I would go completely non-maildrop, to me maps would be neccessary to find the closest town to resupply at..One example is when my pack failed last August and I didn't want to risk going over sassafras with a broken pack frame..So I pulled out the maps to find the easiest way to Neels Gap...No problem..If I didn't have a map, I could have been in trouble..
Just my 2 cents, repeating what others have already said to continue the thread..
Graywolf
Slo-go'en
12-20-2009, 13:24
After 19 pages, I can't belive this debate is still going on!
The AT is something of a special case. As a well blazed and well traveled trail, it's pretty easy to follow. Its so well trampled, I call it the AT interstate highway.
If you have a guide book, you really don't need a map. If you have a map, you don't really need a guide book. Personally, I'll take the book over the map, as the book tells me everything I want to know, like how far to the next shelter/road/water, and frequently points out landmarks for way points.
If somehow you do lose the trail, as soon as you realise your no longer on the AT, turn around and go back the way you came. When you get to the point where you got off the AT, cast around for a double white blaze hidden by a bush or on a fallen tree.
If you get injured, STAY WHERE YOU ARE! Or at least stay on the trail - don't be trying to cut cross country as a short cut, as this will surely lead to disaster.
For any trail other than the AT, get a map. Refer to it frequently to keep track of where you are. A map doesn't do you any good if you don't know about where you are to begin with. You could be anywhere on that map. This is one case where a GPS is handy, as it will tell you where you are to find that location on the map.
Finally, I've never meet a hiker on the AT with a map who wasn't more than happy to let someone without a map look at it. Usually in the morning when they have it out anyway, looking over the days hike. Occasionally to get help figuring out where they are on the map!
ShelterLeopard
12-20-2009, 14:38
Hiking alone is more dangerous than not carrying a map, but people who say maps are a must have have no problem hiking alone.
Don't agree. Though true, I hike alone and always carry a map. (I think hiking alone and not carrying a map may be dangerous)
Graywolf
12-20-2009, 15:24
After 19 pages, I can't belive this debate is still going on!
The AT is something of a special case. As a well blazed and well traveled trail, it's pretty easy to follow. Its so well trampled, I call it the AT interstate highway.
If you have a guide book, you really don't need a map. If you have a map, you don't really need a guide book. Personally, I'll take the book over the map, as the book tells me everything I want to know, like how far to the next shelter/road/water, and frequently points out landmarks for way points.
If somehow you do lose the trail, as soon as you realise your no longer on the AT, turn around and go back the way you came. When you get to the point where you got off the AT, cast around for a double white blaze hidden by a bush or on a fallen tree.
If you get injured, STAY WHERE YOU ARE! Or at least stay on the trail - don't be trying to cut cross country as a short cut, as this will surely lead to disaster.
For any trail other than the AT, get a map. Refer to it frequently to keep track of where you are. A map doesn't do you any good if you don't know about where you are to begin with. You could be anywhere on that map. This is one case where a GPS is handy, as it will tell you where you are to find that location on the map.
Finally, I've never meet a hiker on the AT with a map who wasn't more than happy to let someone without a map look at it. Usually in the morning when they have it out anyway, looking over the days hike. Occasionally to get help figuring out where they are on the map!
Does anyone have a map?? I'm lost,
Graywolf
jersey joe
12-20-2009, 15:44
Don't agree. Though true, I hike alone and always carry a map. (I think hiking alone and not carrying a map may be dangerous)
Fair enough, you think hiking alone is dangerous too. My point is that there are plenty of dangerous things that people do while hiking(including hiking alone) and that not taking maps is just one of these things that could be dangerous. It just seems that those that are very vocal about saying you should carry a map because it is safer, take risks in other places.(hiking solo, fording the kennebec, not hanging bear bags etc.)
ShelterLeopard
12-20-2009, 15:50
I don't think soloing is too dangerous, just less safe than hiking with a group. But fording the Kennebec? Noo thanks.
My point is that there are plenty of dangerous things that people do while hiking (including hiking alone) and that not taking maps is just one of these things that could be dangerous.
All the more reason not to advocate it or set a bad example for others to follow by doing it. Some people think of through hikers and/or other long-distance hikers as role models. Thanks for the disclaimer!:)
there is a large difference between taking risks (dangerous) and downright irresponsible (not being prepared for the eventuality that dangerous will lead you into trouble).
Everyone takes risks all the time. Why? Because most risks have related benefits. If I didn't walk alone, I would rarely walk at all, at least at times and to places that I like to walk, and thus would suffer the risk to health involved in not exercising. We all drive, occasionally too fast for safety. But driving fast after getting a late start gets us to where we need to be on time.
Taking a map, however, involves no risks. Just a little inconvenience: A small investment relative to the costs of a long distance hike; an extra ounce or two; an occasional extra stop at a post office.
The benefits of taking a map are large: Greater knowledge of the trail and the trail surroundings, therefore less boredom; fewer queries of fellow hikers with maps; greater ease in finding the trail without the need for rescue; fewer delays after wandering off the trail; less frustration and therefore less chance of a hike being aborted; often quicker rescue after admittedly rare incidents of serious accident.
Though I agree that the increased risk from not taking maps is pretty minimal, overall I think the equation comes down in favor of taking maps. YMMV.
Weary
Anumber1
12-20-2009, 21:23
just get one of the data books. My favorite is the Thru-hiker Handbook
Weary just posted something similar to what I was going to post--but my post will be more in the form of a question directed at those INDIVIDUALS WHO DO NOT CARRY MAPS. Here is the question:
What are the HARMS or RISKS associated with carrying a map?
Yes, maps are a few more ounces of weight to carry. You do need to buy maps and find ways to acquire them on the trail (i.e. purchase them or have mail drops). However, those issues seem to fall more into the category of "inconvenience"--as opposed to being a "harm" or a "risk".
Conversely, several posters have already pointed out the POTENTIAL harms and/or risks associated with having no map (a greater chance of becoming lost, not being as able to locate an alternate trail or a road in the event of an "emergency" etc.).
Granted, the chance of these risks occurring on the AT may indeed be small--but they are potential risks and potential harms nonetheless. I see no such risks associated with carrying a map.
If there are any legitimate risks or harms associated with carrying a map--I would be really interested in hearing them. (Getting a "paper cut" or "straining your back" from carrying a few extra ounces are not legitimate risks in my book.)
garlic08
12-20-2009, 23:10
Taking a map, however, involves no risks. Just a little inconvenience: A small investment relative to the costs of a long distance hike; an extra ounce or two; an occasional extra stop at a post office.
The extra cost was not small relative to my hike. The full set of ATC maps cost $250 with shipping for a non-member (me, before the hike). The extra maildrops would have cost me at least another $25 to 50 in postage. I don't know how much I saved not making the extra town stops and being tempted by motels and restaurants (I was able to skip many towns because I did not have to go to the PO). I know any idiot (me again) can prove anything with a spreadsheet, but I'd estimate my savings to be in the neighborhood of $500. For a total hike cost of $3000, that's over 15%, not at all negligible. Even 10% is noticeable, to me. I saved at least a couple of days of trail time, too. But that's just the way I did it, and anyone who thinks he or she needs a set of maps should definitely carry them (and pay for them).
The extra cost was not small relative to my hike. The full set of ATC maps cost $250 with shipping for a non-member (me, before the hike). The extra maildrops would have cost me at least another $25 to 50 in postage. I don't know how much I saved not making the extra town stops and being tempted by motels and restaurants (I was able to skip many towns because I did not have to go to the PO). I know any idiot (me again) can prove anything with a spreadsheet, but I'd estimate my savings to be in the neighborhood of $500. For a total hike cost of $3000, that's over 15%, not at all negligible. Even 10% is noticeable, to me. I saved at least a couple of days of trail time, too. But that's just the way I did it, and anyone who thinks he or she needs a set of maps should definitely carry them (and pay for them).
People who plan ahead and shop wisely can beat Garlic08's estimated costs.
The complete map set is currently available from ATC for $202.60, including shipping, plus $35 to become an ATC member, which all thru hikers should become anyway.
The maps are divided into 11 groups. Each group weighs about 6 ounces, (estimated from the weight of the seven Maine maps) and can be mailed first class for $1.73 per group -- or $19.03 if you choose to mail each group separately.
Anyway, that would involve 11 post office stops. Wise hikers will have their maps mailed to towns where they plan to resupply anyway. Thus there should be no extra town time. In my experience in most towns the post offices are mostly located enroute to a decent resupply store.
With wise shopping, therefore, maps should not add more than $221.53 cents to the cost of a thru hike. Add $35 if the only reason you are joining ATC is to get the special map savings.
By taking advantage of the winter ATC discount map price, carrying maps would only add about 7 percent to a thru hike costing $3,000. Used maps are offered from time to time on this site and from other sources, which would further reduce map costs.
Weary
Old Wolf
12-21-2009, 01:06
Trail Guide Books of course. They don't have that information on the maps that btw, you can't even read. Did I mention their the number one cause of paper cuts?
What are the HARMS or RISKS associated with carrying a map?
Doesn't matter...there is no risk associated with carrying a box of toothpicks or one of many other lightweight items...if I don't need it I'm not going to carry it. I don't need maps. I don't carry maps. IMO the databook is all most people will need. If you want to carry maps, I won't try to talk you out of it.
"... plus $35 to become an ATC member, which all thru hikers should become anyway."Apologies in advance for any thread drift here, but since the comment was made in this thread ...
To date I've paid for memberships in ALDHA, ALDHA-West, as well as the PCTA. I should join ATC as well? It's starting to get a little silly ...
Until just now I had thought that ALDHA was the single non-profit relating to the AT, but I now see that atcstore.org isn't the entirety of ATC (thought I was just being asked to buy a store membership ...). Looking a bit further I see that http://www.appalachiantrail.org (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/) is yet a different organization (I think ... unclear why there's more than one such though ...).
There's probably already one or more threads that deal with this (I'll search forthwith), just saying that it was a surprise to me.
jersey joe
12-21-2009, 09:25
Though I agree that the increased risk from not taking maps is pretty minimal, overall I think the equation comes down in favor of taking maps.
Weary
Weary, I think the very minimal risk of not taking maps combined with their weight, cost and possible alternatives (guidebook, electronic navigation, compass) make carrying maps a personal choice and not a NECESSITY.
What's been mentioned as substitutes for maps aren't.
shaggy2004
12-21-2009, 11:16
If I want to jump on I-81 near my house and head up to New York state, staying on I-81 the entire time, I probably won't look at a map.
AT = same thing.
Actually this is a bad comparison as I could easily toss an atlas in my car and not have to worry about buying a different set of maps halfway into every new state. Also there are a lot more confusing interchanges on I-81 then there are on the AT.
Weary, I think the very minimal risk of not taking maps combined with their weight, cost and possible alternatives (guidebook, electronic navigation, compass) make carrying maps a personal choice and not a NECESSITY.
it's really not a matter of NECESSITY so much as RESPONSIBILITY, which, like COMMON SENSE, is a superpower.
shaggy2004
12-21-2009, 11:38
Ok, I apologize for that somewhat asinine post. There's nothing wrong with carrying a map if that's how you want to do it. I just really wish that one of the ardent map carriers could admit that there's nothing wrong with not carrying a map on an AT thru-hike if that's how someone wants to do it.
I'll say this - I do think that in almost any other circumstance where I'm going to be hiking or backpacking any distance I would carry a map/maps but I believe the AT is an exception for all of the reasons that I'm sure have been mentioned many times by now on this thread (well marked, many road crossings, etc.). In fact I own a lot of maps of the area near where I live. I even own the ATC maps for TN/NC and Southwest VA. In fact I even use them quite commonly when I'm planning a weekender and want to make a loop hike out of it. I own a map of the Smokies and probably wouldn't go wandering around in there without it (I would however hike through the AT in the Smokies w/o a map and not give it a 2nd thought.)
The AT is just too heavily traveled, too well blazed and always too close to civilization to make maps a true necessity... In My Opinion. But still, if you feel better with a map, then I have no problem with that.
Apologies in advance for any thread drift here, but since the comment was made in this thread ...
To date I've paid for memberships in ALDHA, ALDHA-West, as well as the PCTA. I should join ATC as well? It's starting to get a little silly ...
Until just now I had thought that ALDHA was the single non-profit relating to the AT, but I now see that atcstore.org isn't the entirety of ATC (thought I was just being asked to buy a store membership ...). Looking a bit further I see that http://www.appalachiantrail.org (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/) is yet a different organization (I think ... unclear why there's more than one such though ...).
There's probably already one or more threads that deal with this (I'll search forthwith), just saying that it was a surprise to me.
ATC traces its roots to the vision of Benton MacKaye, a regional planner who convened an Appalachian Trail “conference” in 1925 in Washington, D.C. That initial gathering of hikers, foresters, and public officials laid the groundwork not only for the creation of a trail, but also for an organization to build, manage, and protect it. Today, through the efforts of volunteers, clubs, and agency partners, the A.T. extends more than 2,170 miles from Maine to Georgia within a protected 250,000 acre greenway.
The Appalachian Trail Conservancy was instrumental in the passage of the federal legislation that designated the A.T. as America’s first national scenic trail in 1968. ATC has been delegated responsibility by the National Park Service to coordinate the management and protection of the Trail footpath and its surrounding corridor lands.
ATC works closely with numerous federal, state, and local agencies and with 30 member clubs and their volunteers in the cooperative management of the Trail. ATC has close to 40,000 members, ATC employs approximately 45 regular staff and numerous seasonal program employees. With a main office and official trail visitor center in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia, ATC remains singularly focused on the A.T. with regional offices in North Carolina, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts.
VATC traces its roots to the vision of Benton MacKaye, a regional planner who convened an Appalachian Trail “conference” in 1925 in Washington, D.C. That initial gathering of hikers, foresters, and public officials laid the groundwork not only for the creation of a trail, but also for an organization to build, manage, and protect it. Today, through the efforts of volunteers, clubs, and agency partners, the A.T. extends more than 2,170 miles from Maine to Georgia within a protected 250,000 acre greenway.
The Appalachian Trail Conservancy was instrumental in the passage of the federal legislation that designated the A.T. as America’s first national scenic trail in 1968. ATC has been delegated responsibility by the National Park Service to coordinate the management and protection of the Trail footpath and its surrounding corridor lands.
ATC works closely with numerous federal, state, and local agencies and with 30 member clubs and their volunteers in the cooperative management of the Trail. ATC has close to 40,000 members, ATC employs approximately 45 regular staff and numerous seasonal program employees. With a main office and official trail visitor center in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia, ATC remains singularly focused on the A.T. with regional offices in North Carolina, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts.
In short, the groups you have donated to are peripheral to the future of the trail. Only the ATC has been a major influence on the direction that the trail has moved in. Only the ATC continues to provide overall leadership in the preservation of the trail as we know it. Only the ATC works with all these groups and many others for the protection of the trail. All of us, all the many organizations, all the groups, official or not, all the individuals, are important. But none of us -- probably all of us put together -- are not more valuable than ATC.
Weary
If you enjoy having maps or feel better having maps, then by all means take them, but please don't insist that those who do not are in some way ignorant, foolhardy, or don't know what they're doing.
i will insist anyway, regardless of what you want. so there. you would not believe (obviously) how many ways there actually are of getting turned around on a "well-marked" trail. a map, and knowledge of how to use it, could save your life and lessen the risk others will have to take on your behalf when you get lost. it's just the responsible thing to do, whether you think you're going to need it or not.
it's really not a matter of NECESSITY so much as RESPONSIBILITY
There's nothing wrong with carrying a map if that's how you want to do it. I just really wish that one of the ardent map carriers could admit that there's nothing wrong with not carrying a map on an AT thru-hike if that's how someone wants to do it.
The AT is just too heavily traveled, too well blazed and always too close to civilization to make maps a true necessity... In My Opinion. But still, if you feel better with a map, then I have no problem with that.
A lot of intolerant people in the world and I guess in their minds anyone without a map is completely IRRESPONSIBLE.
I totally disagree. Like many before me, ain't no way I'd carry maps [on the AT] if I was hiking during the normal hiking season . . . which I'm not planning on.
I mean come on, if someone's gonna talk about being safe and carrying something that might save your life whether you use it or not, I could make a VERY long list of items that almost NO one brings 'cause they don't wanna have 75 pounds on their back! Each item, like maps, would be in case of emergency, ya know, just in case you need it.
Anyway, for my thru hike in the Fall->Winter I'm definitely rethinking my decision to go sans maps . . . but the cost is just horrible. Then again, I'm a risk taker and getting lost on the AT ain't gonna kill me. I wouldn't recommend to anyone not to bring maps in the Fall & Winter . . . but I'm me, I know my capabilities in the wild, and I've been in much worse predicaments!
mweinstone
12-22-2009, 08:17
i might not hike with a dork.
takethisbread
12-22-2009, 08:38
I don't hike with a map.
I did for a while but I found I rarely used it
So as all things I rarely use...
It is discarded.
The Old Fhart
12-22-2009, 12:20
mweinstone-"i might not hike with a dork."
With you, is that possible? :banana
(Just kidding-we all luv ya):sun
I skied with a map today...
No astrolabe, though...