Yearling black bear attacks boy in GSMNP

[Rain Man]

Almost posted this under "Health, Safety & Hygiene," but decided this "Wildlife" thread was just as good.

Here is a good link to Knoxville News-Sentinel newspaper article and some excerpts--

Knox News article (http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/aug/11/8-year-old-boy-father-injured-bear-smokies/)

"8-year-old boy, father injured in Smokies bear attack"
News Sentinel staff
August 11, 2008

"A young boy has been hospitalized after he was mauled twice by a black bear near Gatlinburg in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.

"The boy's father also was injured while defending his son from the animal, National Park officials said. A bear believed to be the attacker was later shot and killed by park rangers.

"The young boy was playing in the creek about 300 yards up from the trailhead at Rainbow Falls Trail, which is off the Roaring Fork Motor Nature Trail, when he was apparently approached and attacked," said NPS spokesman Bob Miller." ...

The injuries were described as serious but not life-threatening.

Same story, fewer details, listed at "Hiker Hell" blog--
hikerhell.blogspot.com (http://hikerhell.blogspot.com/2008/08/black-bear-mauls-young-boy-twice-in.html)

Rain Man

.

[Mrs Baggins]

I guess the bear never heard the mantra "bears are more afraid of us than we are of them".............right. I've never believed that.

[MudDuck]

Well thank God that father doesn't carry a gun with him into the woods or else his son wouldn't have had the oportunity to be attacked and killed a second time. Wheew,,,close one...
:bse

[d'shadow]

This is very unusual, I've been in that area many times. The only thing I can think of is that the boy was small, 55 lbs, and the bear was a yearling.
Most mature bears in that area have encounters with humans on a regular basis, I have seen many bears and observed many encounters and found the bears very tolerant of the humans. Even when tourists have come too close to mother bears and their young, they have shown restraint in not becoming aggressive toward any human.
I'm sorry to hear this happened, this is an exception to the rule.

[SloHiker]

I guess the bear never heard the mantra "bears are more afraid of us than we are of them".............right. I've never believed that.

That only works when a bears natural fear of humans hasn't been compromised. Most people just don't get it ..... when a wild predatory animal loses its fear of you, you're nothing more than a meal or a chew-toy.

Every time a human tolerates a predatory animal in close proximity, he's laying the foundation for the potential for that animal to attack someone in the future.

I find little comfort in potentially being the "exception to the rule", as well. The animal isn't smart enough to figure this out - we're the ones that cause the problems with our "bambi" mentality.

I'm going to go hug a tree now and suppress any more of those thoughts and feelings ;)

[generoll]

an occasional bear hunt every few years in the Smokies would solve the problem nicely.

[taildragger]

an occasional bear hunt every few years in the Smokies would solve the problem nicely.

Or if you're too hippie for that, just have some rangers/volunteers shoot them in the arse with pellets and get some kerellian dogs to chase them. We may start to look like rather annoying critters that are best left alone (just like wasps to people)

:welcome

[Cabin Fever]

There are some key story details I am curious about. "55 pound bear' and the father fending it off with rocks and sticks.

1. Will rocks and sticks really do much?
2. Only 55 pounds? Give that bear a vertical supplex followed by a people's elbow and Hulk Hogan leg drop!


Glad they survived though. Hate to hear stories of tragedy in the outdoors.

[Tipi Walter]

That only works when a bears natural fear of humans hasn't been compromised. Most people just don't get it ..... when a wild predatory animal loses its fear of you, you're nothing more than a meal or a chew-toy.

Every time a human tolerates a predatory animal in close proximity, he's laying the foundation for the potential for that animal to attack someone in the future.

I find little comfort in potentially being the "exception to the rule", as well. The animal isn't smart enough to figure this out - we're the ones that cause the problems with our "bambi" mentality.

I'm going to go hug a tree now and suppress any more of those thoughts and feelings ;)

"Roaring Fork Motor Nature Trail" about says it all, sounds like typical rolling couch potato doublespeak for allowing non-rated car-addicted dayhikers in great numbers to invade the woods. By all means, let's encourage more cars in the park. Motor Nature Trail? If so, then take what nature has to give you. They've got the motor part down, it's just the nature part that's tricky. Whatever happened to the time when it took a person several days on foot just to reach the Rainbow Falls trailhead? But no, let's shuttle in more and more sardines in their metal tins and shrink up habitat bit by bit.

I'll turn your quote around: Every time a bear tolerates a human animal in close proximity, that bear is laying the foundation for the human to disturb his habitat and ruin his day. Being in the wilderness entails the possibility of death by lightning, falling trees, rattlesnake bite or bear attack. Get used to it and close the roads. Or bulldoze the Park and remove all the risks.

[taildragger]

"
I'll turn your quote around: Every time a bear tolerates a human animal in close proximity, that bear is laying the foundation for the human to disturb his habitat and ruin his day. Being in the wilderness entails the possibility of death by lightning, falling trees, rattlesnake bite or bear attack. Get used to it and close the roads. Or bulldoze the Park and remove all the risks.

Yulp, those bears have lived next to humans for 100's of years, if both avoid each other, then there won't be much room for predation on either part.

But, since we have opposable thumbs, and have mastered steel, I guess we are no longer part of the wilderness equation right :rolleyes:

[Tipi Walter]

But, since we have opposable thumbs, and have mastered steel, I guess we are no longer part of the wilderness equation right :rolleyes:

What is the wilderness equation? Roadless areas? Clean rivers and creeks? Abundant grazing for bison and huge tracts for the grizzlies? We've elevated ourselves up into some kind of god's chosen status where we think we can manage everything with us at the top of the heap. But even this point is moot as we approach 330 million with each person wanting their own car and their own castle on the hill and an endless amount of more stuff. Are we no longer part of the wilderness equation? What do you think?

[Sly]

an occasional bear hunt every few years in the Smokies would solve the problem nicely. Maybe not, juvenile bears like to sow their wild oats so to speak.

[taildragger]

Maybe not, juvenile bears like to sow their wild oats so to speak.

Lucky the dad showed up, nothing worse than bears that think that real life is just like Deliverance

[Lone Wolf]

What is the wilderness equation? Roadless areas? Clean rivers and creeks? Abundant grazing for bison and huge tracts for the grizzlies? We've elevated ourselves up into some kind of god's chosen status where we think we can manage everything with us at the top of the heap. But even this point is moot as we approach 330 million with each person wanting their own car and their own castle on the hill and an endless amount of more stuff. Are we no longer part of the wilderness equation? What do you think?

i think you should move up to the middle of nowhere alaska with no electricity or outside contact instead of whining on here. seems you'd be happy up there

[Lugnut]

There are some key story details I am curious about. "55 pound bear' and the father fending it off with rocks and sticks.

1. Will rocks and sticks really do much?
2. Only 55 pounds? Give that bear a vertical supplex followed by a people's elbow and Hulk Hogan leg drop!


Glad they survived though. Hate to hear stories of tragedy in the outdoors.


The kid weighed 55 lbs, not the bear.

[HikerRanky]

The kid weighed 55 lbs, not the bear.

Nope, the bear was estimated to weigh 55 lbs.... Here's the specific quote from the article:

"The dead animal was believed to be a "yearling," which means that it was likely born in the spring of 2007, Miller said. It's weight was estimated at 55 pounds, but further details about the animal won't be known for certain until a necropsy is performed at the University of Tennessee."

[Lone Wolf]

Nope, the bear was estimated to weigh 55 lbs.... Here's the specific quote from the article:

"The dead animal was believed to be a "yearling," which means that it was likely born in the spring of 2007, Miller said. It's weight was estimated at 55 pounds, but further details about the animal won't be known for certain until a necropsy is performed at the University of Tennessee."

this article says 86 lbs. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/sfl-0812boymauled,0,2513571.story

[Uncle B]

"Roaring Fork Motor Nature Trail" about says it all, sounds like typical rolling couch potato doublespeak for allowing non-rated car-addicted dayhikers in great numbers to invade the woods. By all means, let's encourage more cars in the park. Motor Nature Trail? If so, then take what nature has to give you. They've got the motor part down, it's just the nature part that's tricky. Whatever happened to the time when it took a person several days on foot just to reach the Rainbow Falls trailhead? But no, let's shuttle in more and more sardines in their metal tins and shrink up habitat bit by bit.

I'll turn your quote around: Every time a bear tolerates a human animal in close proximity, that bear is laying the foundation for the human to disturb his habitat and ruin his day. Being in the wilderness entails the possibility of death by lightning, falling trees, rattlesnake bite or bear attack. Get used to it and close the roads. Or bulldoze the Park and remove all the risks.


How do you typically arrive at your destination to begin your hike? What? I thought so. Your argument is laughable at best.

[HikerRanky]

this article says 86 lbs. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/sfl-0812boymauled,0,2513571.story

The Knoxville News article stated they estimated that the bear weighed 55 pounds..... Obviously, the Orlando newspaper has different info....

Either way, I'm glad that the boy is alive, and best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Randy

[sheepdog]

Dad and big bro did a great job fighting the bear off. Just goes to show you never can tell. 55lbs sounds very light for a yearling bear. 86lbs sounds more believable.

[Tipi Walter]

How do you typically arrive at your destination to begin your hike? What? I thought so. Your argument is laughable at best.

It's real simple: Put a giant parking lot at Gatlinburg and a giant parking lot at Cherokee and close the Park to cars and traffic. Nearly everyone can enter the Park, but on foot. For example, if you want to get to the center of the Cohutta Wilderness you have to walk. If you want to reach the Hangover rocks in the center of the Slickrock Wilderness you have to walk. Out west there are vast wildlerness areas closed to all car traffic. You've got to park a far distance from the guts of the place and do some serious humpage to see most of it.

Wherever I park to go backpacking I would gladly give up and you can tear up the road leading into my favorite trailheads as I'd gleefully add another 20 or 30 miles(or 100)to reach my destination. If my house was the closest road to where I go backpacking I would be happy and I'd gear up from here and head out.

The laughable part is allowing so much traffic in a National Park with the worst air pollution in the country. And where there's traffic there's shrinking habitat, ergo bear attacks.

[Nearly Normal]

an occasional bear hunt every few years in the Smokies would solve the problem nicely.

Every year.

[oldfivetango]

There are some key story details I am curious about. "55 pound bear' and the father fending it off with rocks and sticks.

1. Will rocks and sticks really do much?
2. Only 55 pounds? Give that bear a vertical supplex followed by a people's elbow and Hulk Hogan leg drop!


Glad they survived though. Hate to hear stories of tragedy in the outdoors.

My mama always said "sticks and stones can break my bones but
words will never hurt me".

Mama was a liar.:D (bout the words part,I mean)
Oldfivetango

[workboot]

All those "car tourists" pay a lot of taxes that maintain the National Park System. The roads are there to stay, as they should be for the benefit of all Americans. Closing the roads is not going to happen. Period.

[generoll]

One slight correction, TW. You can drive pretty close the the Hangover if the FS road to Big Fat is open.

[SurferNerd]

OK, weird shnit, my mother just called me asking about this story. Turns out that John Pala (the Father) is my cousin, and his son is also related to me. It's my mother's sister's son. Wow, I got an email from her with some pretty grusome pics, but I won't post them for privacy reasons. I'm definitely rethinking taking bear spray next year.

[berninbush]

I find it interesting, in this thread and the other one, that people automatically assume a human being must have done something wrong to precipitate this.

The assumption seems to be that either the kid secretly fed the bear something (classic blame-the-victim mentality) or that other humans had fed the bear. Well, from my desk chair, I can't prove otherwise. But the kid and his father say the bear attacked out of nowhere, and such a young cub can't have had THAT much previous contact with humans. Ordinary food-seeking instincts also really wouldn't explain why the bear attacked armed forest rangers on sight.

We know that some humans, for no reason we can discern, develop mental illness and plunge into destructive irrational behavior. It seems to me not such a stretch to believe that this individual bear could have been suffering from something like this. Of course, I wouldn't be too surprised to find out that he had rabies, which would cause just such behavior. For the boy's sake, though, I hope that's not the case.

Perhaps it's tempting to look for a human-centered reason behind this (especially if you can blame the boy) because it increases the feeling of "that couldn't happen to me" and gives us something to do to prevent it. But the truth is that if the bear was ill, it could happen to anyone, regardless of precautions or education of the public or whatever. There's not much we can do except be prepared to defend ourselves if necessary.

EDIT: SurferNerd, I'm glad they came out of this ok.

[Jason of the Woods]

Ya know. I read all of this about guns and bear spray and laugh. I own both and also have a concealed carry permit. At the same time I have only carried my gun in places that are remote with scarry locals. I don't think that your average person has a quick enough reaction time for either to do any good. You are much better doing what the father did in this case. I saw the boy this morning on the news and he looked fine. Sticks and don't don't break bones just scare the bears.

Surfernerd: If you are related to the boy's father then of course you'd be related to the son.?;)

[oops56]

Ya know. I read all of this about guns and bear spray and laugh. I own both and also have a concealed carry permit. At the same time I have only carried my gun in places that are remote with scarry locals. I don't think that your average person has a quick enough reaction time for either to do any good. You are much better doing what the father did in this case. I saw the boy this morning on the news and he looked fine. Sticks and don't don't break bones just scare the bears.

Surfernerd: If you are related to the boy's father then of course you'd be related to the son.?;)

Yep you are right if in pack to late to get it.If on hip people stay away.And even if you get it out can you do it first shot

[lunchbx]

There are some key story details I am curious about. "55 pound bear' and the father fending it off with rocks and sticks.

1. Will rocks and sticks really do much?
2. Only 55 pounds? Give that bear a vertical supplex followed by a people's elbow and Hulk Hogan leg drop!


Glad they survived though. Hate to hear stories of tragedy in the outdoors.


I think you underestimate the strength of a bear. Bears can tear through sheet metal with thier claws no problem, not only that they are just plain old pound for pound stronger than us.55 pounds is small but i bet he could still rip your face off!

[Tipi Walter]

All those "car tourists" pay a lot of taxes that maintain the National Park System. The roads are there to stay, as they should be for the benefit of all Americans. Closing the roads is not going to happen. Period.


Closing roads happens all the time, though maybe not as often as I'd like to see. In my neck of the woods several roads have been closed permanently and designated foot trails. The short old road from Beech Gap to Cold Spring Gap abutting the Citico Wilderness is now closed and has become part of the Benton MacKaye trail. Not too long ago it was even possible to drive from Beech Gap all the way to the North Fork Citico before wilderness designation.

Another road closure is by the Fish Hatchery on the Tellico River road as a side road up Sycamore Creek to Whiggs Meadow, about a 6 mile stretch, has been closed for years and made a foot trail.

Another place is at Farr Gap where the old road used to follow the old Fodderstack ridge all the way to Crowders Gap and beyond, now it's a very nice foot trail. And at Mud Gap off the Cherohala Skyway there used to be a 1.5 mile road to the other side of Whiggs Meadow that has been permanently closed to rolling traffic.

So, there is hope in contraction and not expansion, there's hope that roads can be closed and areas allowed to revert back to the pre-car days. In the Smokies I believe the Parsons road is closed or at least there is talk of it. And many forest roads are closed and gated during the winter months. Plus, the Road to Nowhere goes nowhere and future building was stopped despite the wails from the oil-loving sprawl types who see salvation in Gatlinburg-like development.

Car addicts and Wheeled Tourists might shudder at the thought of less rolling access, and in fits of cold turkey they may fight back with ultimatums, but in fact established roads are being closed and restricted to just the foot-propelled humans.

[Cookerhiker]

I didn't look it up but I recall Edward Abbey's position from Desert Solitaire in a chapter entitled "Polemic - Industrial Tourism" as being very similar to Tipi Walter except Abbey recommended that for large parks, all visitors be issues bicycles.

As an alternative to total road closings, some parks like Zion and Grand Canyon have restricted access at certain times of the year to shuttle buses. I don't think tourists are bitching about it.

[Homer&Marje]

I hope this thread doesnt close because people are expressing "too many" opinions directed at the same topic. Cause that happens.

I agree with Tipi Walter in many ways, there are many useless roads that have been built and it would be much better to close many of them but logistically it's probably just easier to fix the pollution problem first, less carbon fuels, less carbon output. Hydrogen cell vehicles are not far away but the oil companies keep fighting to keep them out of business with marketing fears of nowhere to fill up or nowhere that can fix the car montages. Anyways, too bad about the kid but we all take the risk when we walk in their woods.

[Skidsteer]

I hope this thread doesnt close because people are expressing "too many" opinions directed at the same topic. Cause that happens.

The thread has been OK to this point. No need to throw a turd in the pool.

If you have a problem with moderation decisions I suggest you PM an admin.

[taildragger]

I agree with Tipi Walter in many ways, there are many useless roads that have been built and it would be much better to close many of them but logistically it's probably just easier to fix the pollution problem first, less carbon fuels, less carbon output. Hydrogen cell vehicles are not far away but the oil companies keep fighting to keep them out of business with marketing fears of nowhere to fill up or nowhere that can fix the car montages. Anyways, too bad about the kid but we all take the risk when we walk in their woods.

OT, but there are inherently many more problems with the cars than fill up stations and big oil. Theres a reason why many engineers don't think that they will come to pass. Hydrogen is expensive and tricky.

There are other types of technology out there, and other fuel cells, use them instead.

[oldfivetango]

OT, but there are inherently many more problems with the cars than fill up stations and big oil. Theres a reason why many engineers don't think that they will come to pass. Hydrogen is expensive and tricky.

There are other types of technology out there, and other fuel cells, use them instead.

For the record-my chemistry teacher made us up a batch
of hydrogen gas in highschool back in the 60's before most
of you were ever born.

Tiny dry cell battery,water,2 nails,2 testubes,and about 5 minutes
and you would not believe the flame that shot out of that tube!!!
I thought then that we should be running cars and power plants off
of it-and I still do!

Oh btw,is this that bear forum?I heard that the bear was half
crazed on twinkies and had been watching too much pro wrestling
on tv and that was gonna be his defense lawyer's strategy until some
darn Federal agent went and shot him without a fair trial.

Sure am proud of the Dad and the brother and am so glad the kid
is going to be OK.Man,what a campfire story he has for the rest of
his life!
OFT

[sheepdog]

Ya know. I read all of this about guns and bear spray and laugh. I own both and also have a concealed carry permit. At the same time I have only carried my gun in places that are remote with scarry locals. I don't think that your average person has a quick enough reaction time for either to do any good. You are much better doing what the father did in this case. I saw the boy this morning on the news and he looked fine. Sticks and don't don't break bones just scare the bears.

Surfernerd: If you are related to the boy's father then of course you'd be related to the son.?;)
They could have definitely got the gun out by the time the bear charged a second time. Also they could have gotten the gun out while they were throwing rocks at the bear. If you carry a gun it shouldn't be burried in your pack, it should be where you can get at it and if you're going to carry a gun, you shouldn't be an average person. You should be a well trained person. Bear spray might have come in handy in a situation like that also.
Once again I commend the dad and brother for fighting the bear off. Well done.

[gaga]

morale of the story : Dont put the whole bottle of Strawberry scented sunblock on your kid :D

[Bob S]

Bear spray could have easily been just as dangerous to the boy as it would the bear. It’s a spray, it’s spreads out the second it leaves the can. And it is subject to wind. It’s a good bet that if used both the bear and the boy would have been gassed.

A gun only fires a bullet where you point it, the trick is to having it pointing in the right direction when the trigger is pulled. It’s much more precise then pepper spray.

[sheepdog]

I was thinking of using the bear spray after he got the bear off the boy and then was trying to keep the bear away. But I have been sprayed with pepper spray (training) and I would rather be pepper sprayed than chewed on by a bear.

[Lugnut]

Nope, the bear was estimated to weigh 55 lbs.... Here's the specific quote from the article:

"The dead animal was believed to be a "yearling," which means that it was likely born in the spring of 2007, Miller said. It's weight was estimated at 55 pounds, but further details about the animal won't be known for certain until a necropsy is performed at the University of Tennessee."

I'm requesting a refund on my speed reading course. :mad:

[halibut15]

Bear spray could have easily been just as dangerous to the boy as it would the bear. It’s a spray, it’s spreads out the second it leaves the can. And it is subject to wind. It’s a good bet that if used both the bear and the boy would have been gassed.

A gun only fires a bullet where you point it, the trick is to having it pointing in the right direction when the trigger is pulled. It’s much more precise then pepper spray.

I won't get into gun politics at the risk of being scolded or shutting down a thread, but here's an awesome story about toting weapons in the woods, and which ones you should bring:

In the 1930s, a fellow was traveling to North Georgia to come to college. On his way, he had to cross through WNC and Rabun Gap. Hearing about all of this "wilderness" and places named Bear Gap, Wildcat Creek and the like, he arrived in the tiny town of Demorest, GA dressed in furs, toting a rifle and several knives. He immediately roused a raucous laughter from the locals in almost every town he passed through, since hardly any of them traveled in the mountains that heavily armed. The moral? There are bears and bobcats and who-knows-what out there, but in the end, not many weapons are going to help unless you're stalking the animal for the purpose of hunting it. If you surprise a bear and it comes on you, it's going to happen way too fast for you to draw a gun, take the safety off (presumably) and squeeze off enough on-target rounds to do any damage. Same goes for knives...except for the safety part.

With that said, I've run into almost ten bears in the mountains and several angry mama boars in the swamps, and not once have I been charged or attacked. (I know, I know. It only takes once.) It's a wilderness out there, but not so much of one to where you need to be toting an arsenal. Just be smart, people.

[Bob S]

I don’t care if anyone has a gun, it’s their choice but there is a lot of disinformation as to how long it takes to pull a gun and ready it to fire.

I disagree with the idea that a person won’t have time to pull and use a gun if surprised. If this were so, there would be a lot of dead cops every year. A criminal in the night is more ready then a bear you happen on in the woods. I’ve ran into 2 bears, and both times I we just looked at each other and then I backed away slowly. Had I a gun and the bear came at me, it would come out of the holster much faster then either bears could have gotten to me.

[Rainman]

I believe (my opinion) that a gun would have helped THIS father protect his son from THIS bear attack.

What he did was certainly brave, selfless, and appropriate under the circumstances. Nevertheless, I'd bet that if you asked him today whether he wished he'd had a firearm of suitable calibre (of course aimed properly), he would very likely answer; yes.

I hope this opinion has enough disclaimers to avoid a thread shut down backlash.

[Sly]

Just how would a gun have helped? The boy would have got attacked regardless if the father was carrying.




I believe (my opinion) that a gun would have helped THIS father protect his son from THIS bear attack.

What he did was certainly brave, selfless, and appropriate under the circumstances. Nevertheless, I'd bet that if you asked him today whether he wished he'd had a firearm of suitable calibre (of course aimed properly), he would very likely answer; yes.

I hope this opinion has enough disclaimers to avoid a thread shut down backlash.

[sheepdog]

Just how would a gun have helped? The boy would have got attacked regardless if the father was carrying.
He would have got attacked the first time, but a well placed shot would have stopped the second attack.

[Rainman]

Just how would a gun have helped? The boy would have got attacked regardless if the father was carrying.

Bear attacks. Dad pulls him off. ("I pulled the [Bear's] face apart and threw the bear to the side.") (SHOOT NOW) Boy runs away. Bear gets by dad. (SHOOT NOW) Boy falls while running away. Bear chases boy. (SHOOT NOW) Bear attacks boy a second time. Dad and other son pull bear off the second time. (SHOOT NOW) Bear chases boy a second time (SHOOT NOW) ("The second time me and Alex fought him again. I jumped on him and threw him off.") (SHOOT NOW) Instead; ("Alex threw sticks and stones at him.")

Lot's of chances to use the gun and potentially keep the boy from further exposure to harm.

[Sly]

Of course it's easy for you to envision how it would play out, but you weren't there. The boy got attacked, rescued by the father and was shot by rangers. What more do you want?


Bear attacks. Dad pulls him off. ("I pulled the [Bear's] face apart and threw the bear to the side.") (SHOOT NOW) Boy runs away. Bear gets by dad. (SHOOT NOW) Boy falls while running away. Bear chases boy. (SHOOT NOW) Bear attacks boy a second time. Dad and other son pull bear off the second time. (SHOOT NOW) Bear chases boy a second time (SHOOT NOW) ("The second time me and Alex fought him again. I jumped on him and threw him off.") (SHOOT NOW) Instead; ("Alex threw sticks and stones at him.")

Lot's of chances to use the gun and potentially keep the boy from further exposure to harm.

[Sly]

He would have got attacked the first time, but a well placed shot would have stopped the second attack.

I don't think he was *attacked* a second time. Approached yes.

[sheepdog]

I don't think he was *attacked* a second time. Approached yes.

"The bear apparently attacked the boy once and then came back to maul him again, Miller said. "

The above is a quote from the news paper article. I'm riding with Rainman, I would have liked to have had a gun.

[Tinker]

Rabies??

[Sly]

I'm riding with Rainman, I would have liked to have had a gun.

http://www.politicalforum.com/

[sheepdog]

I'm not talking guns, I'm talking bear attacks. Be nice.

[Rainman]

I'm not second guessing anybody. Just posting an opinion in a public forum dealing with wild critters and how to handle them.

Just sayin'

If I don't have my gun, I'd like to have sheepdog along. (Let's try to make it to one of those Brotherhood / Sisterhood hikes sometime)

[sheepdog]

That sounds like a good idea to me. I hope to see you on the trail.

You're not one of those guys who puts bacon in my pack, so the bear chews on me while you get away are you? :D:D

[Rainman]

No. And I'm sure you run faster than I do, so you have no worries.

[Bob S]

You don’t have to run fast, just a little faster then your hiking partner.

[sheepdog]

So if you see Bob S tying your boot laces together...watch out for bears!!!!:D

[Lump76]

A lot of posters on here are getting pretty high and mighty with their comments. You all act as though because you've hiked through GSNP a couple of times that you own the place. I for one am glad to see families choosing to visit natural places like GSNP on vacation. It sure beats funneling more money into Walt Disney World. Not everyone has to enjoy the wilderness the same way. As long as we respect it and preserve it for future generations. As a backpacker, my favorite way to experience a park like GSNP would be backcountry camping or hiking on the AT. But not everyone can do that. Should families with small kids, elderly people, or the disabled be excluded from enjoying nature because they can't physical hump it up a 10 mile trail to a waterfall? Sorry to get all up on my soapbox, but I get sick of reading posts from wilderness snobs that think they own the park because they've hiked through it a couple of times.

The reason I wanted to post on here is that my wife and I were just on the Roaring Fork Motor Trail last weekend, 2 days before that kid got attacked, and we also had a bear encounter. I know.... GASP! It's shocking that I would be a part of all that is wrong with the world by going on a motor nature trail. Actually, I would have preferred to hike up to Clingman's Dome or something... but my wife and I were in Gatlinburg for the weekend celebrating our anniversary, and she's 5 months pregnant. So I for one was very grateful for the motor nature trail, because it allowed us to get out in the woods for a while without putting too much strain on her.

So anyway, it was a very busy day in the park, and we were on the Grotto Falls trail hiking back from the falls. We had seen a mother bear with 2 cubs sleeping about 75 ft up in a tree at the trailhead. We didn't realize they had come down until all of a sudden we almost ran smack into them on the trail. The mama bear came down the hillside and lumbered onto the trail about 15 feet ahead of my wife. I slowly walked up to my wife and told her to back away. I just stood my ground as she retreated and looked around to see if I could locate the cubs. Mama then started slowly approaching me. So I backed up very calmly. She was about 10 feet from me and keeping pace with me as I backed up. She seemed to be sizing me up, and didn't seem to be too concerned. About that time this other family came skipping along behind my wife, and I heard my wife telling them to stop and be still. Then this little 6-7 year old girl started walking past me toward the bear like she wanted to pet it or something. I heard her dad tell her to stop, but he didn't make a move to intervene (freakin coward). She got a couple steps past me, and I reached out and grabbed her and pulled her back to me. I have no doubt that if I hadn't intervened, the girl would have walked right up and tried to pet the bear. And the parents would have just stood there frozen and let her do it. A minute later, mama decided we weren't a threat, and she took off down the hill. About that time, the two cubs came trotting out of the woods, across the trail, and down the hill after her.

If that family was any indication, I can kind of see why a boy in that area might be attacked by a bear. People just do not exercise any common sense. I do not agree that these families ought to be barred from the park or anything... I just think there needs to be a little better education on how to conduct yourself in the wilderness. As an access point to the trails, I think the motor nature trail is a good thing. But I think it should be mandatory to stop and read some safety literature before entering the trail. It's a one-way road that already has a entrance checkpoint where you can pick up a guidebook. It wouldn't be too hard to post a ranger there to give each car a little 2 minute talk on what to do when encountering a bear and also some "leave no trace" etiquette.

One more thing while I'm waxing eloquent.... I do agree that having a gun along in the wilderness is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as it's used responsibly. Everyone who carries a gun in an urban setting doesn't go around shooting people. Likewise, there's no reason to believe that allowing guns in the wilderness necessarily has to lead to more bear shootings. If a gun were used to fire off a warning shot into the air, 99 times out of 100, that bear would be out of sight in a second. No need to kill it, just scare it off.

[Lump76]

On a lighter note, maybe it would help if they posted a sign like this one to help hikers identify signs of bear activity...

http://www.outdooroddities.com/2008/07/23/grizzly-bear-warning-sign/

[Bob S]

If a gun were used to fire off a warning shot into the air, 99 times out of 100, that bear would be out of sight in a second. No need to kill it, just scare it off.




Fire the gun into the ground, not the air. What goes up has to come down. And that bullet is going to be moving at least 126 MPH. when it comes down. Unlikely someone will be in the way, but it’s still not a good idea to fire bullets without knowing where it’s going to end up.

[Skywalker]

Thank you, Mrs. Baggins, for those words of wisdom. You've got company. About 50% of the time they look scared of me, and about 100% of the time I have to change my diapers after seeing one.

Skywalker '05

[Rain Man]

Fire the gun into the ground, not the air. What goes up has to come down. And that bullet is going to be moving at least 126 MPH. when it comes down. Unlikely someone will be in the way, but it’s still not a good idea to fire bullets without knowing where it’s going to end up.

Even better idea is for scaredy cats to just carry fire-crackers. Same as shooting a gun in the air, into the ground, wherever, except you can set off a whole bunch of them at once. AND no chance of shooting yourself or any innocent bystanders.

I'm hereby asking the Moderator to closed this thread. I should have posted it in Straight Forward, to avoid all the sanctimonious and irrelevant NRA-speech. The answer to every problem in the world is not dropping a bomb or shooting a gun.

Rain:sunMan

.

[dessertrat]

Even better idea is for scaredy cats to just carry fire-crackers. Same as shooting a gun in the air, into the ground, wherever, except you can set off a whole bunch of them at once. AND no chance of shooting yourself or any innocent bystanders.


Rain:sunMan

.

Some people carry a light plastic cap gun. It is useful for signaling in an emergency, and for scaring off bears, and at night, if someone tries to raid your camp, it would probably pass for a real gun, and when you start blasting away with it, they would skedaddle, whether on two legs or four.

[take-a-knee]

Fire the gun into the ground, not the air. What goes up has to come down. And that bullet is going to be moving at least 126 MPH. when it comes down. Unlikely someone will be in the way, but it’s still not a good idea to fire bullets without knowing where it’s going to end up.

Someone needs to inform the Iraqis, when they win a soccer match, all the tracers heading skyward looks like the 4th of July.

[MOWGLI]

Some people carry a light plastic cap gun. It is useful for signaling in an emergency, and for scaring off bears, and at night, if someone tries to raid your camp, it would probably pass for a real gun, and when you start blasting away with it, they would skedaddle, whether on two legs or four.

Great for 6th graders in summer camp. For repelling pantie raids and the like. Maybe. Really bad idea for just about anyone else. For multiple reasons.

Why are people so frightened of the woods? I wish people who are scared of the woods would just stay at home under their beds. It's much safer there.

[sheepdog]

I'm hereby asking the Moderator to closed this thread. I should have posted it in Straight Forward, to avoid all the sanctimonious and irrelevant NRA-speech. The answer to every problem in the world is not dropping a bomb or shooting a gun.

Rain:sunMan

.
All I saw was a frank discussion on weather a gun would have helped in this situtation. :)

[Lugnut]

I'm hereby asking the Moderator to closed this thread. I should have posted it in Straight Forward, to avoid all the sanctimonious and irrelevant NRA-speech. The answer to every problem in the world is not dropping a bomb or shooting a gun.

Rain:sunMan

.

Looks to me like you just expressed your opinion. Are others not allowed to?

[MOWGLI]

All I saw was a frank discussion on weather a gun would have helped in this situtation. :)

It's too bad Monday Night Football isn't played in the morning. If it was, the NFL would undoubtedly have scouts here on Whiteblaze. This place is chock full of Monday Morning Quarterbacks. :rolleyes:

[sheepdog]

It's too bad Monday Night Football isn't played in the morning. If it was, the NFL would undoubtedly have scouts here on Whiteblaze. This place is chock full of Monday Morning Quarterbacks. :rolleyes:
Read my posts. I never said they did anything wrong, in fact I commended them for thier actions.

[MOWGLI]

Read my posts. I never said they did anything wrong, in fact I commended them for thier actions.

I was being sarcastic. And not directing my post at you. No intent to offend. My only intent was to inject levity - with a tinge of truth. :sun

[halibut15]

Before this one gets closed down, I love how a site devoted to such an open-minded activity as hiking has the most restrictive forums on Earth. Who cares if people want to talk about carrying a gun (or not) in the woods? If people care so much about it, I'm sure that means it has some merit to the hiking community, so let people discuss it. After all, isn't that what forums are for?

Just my two cents...but on a more practical note, does anyone know of how many presumed bear attacks have been successfully stopped with a gun versus bear spray, hand-to-hand stuff, etc.? Again, not debating gun politics...just curious.

[oops56]

As for a bear spray be best cause it can be on belt or your chest strap.Well the g-- would be to heavy to be powerfull. What;s the saying if there is two of you in bear country let the front get it first then run back to where can from :D

[Marta]

When I was heading out to Glacier NP this summer, one of the other hikers had been reading way too much about bear attacks. One resource--and I can't recall where I saw the link to the article (maybe Jan Leitschuh posted it?)--said that guns and spray were about equally effective, which is around 70% of the time. The statistic came from studies of actual bear-human encounters.

[spirit4earth]

I believe this was mostly "human error". The family apparently didn't have much experience in the woods, and they probably didn't do any homework about black bears. The kid scared the bear, most likely met its gaze (which isn't smart), then may have turned to run. Granted, this is conjecture; all I'm saying is that I don't think it's all the bear's fault. He (the bear) may have been somewhat used to having humans around, so he didn't scurry away when (if?) he heard the boy.
All in all, a bad scene, but no reason at all to stay away from the Smokies!!

[spirit4earth]

just a note about guns in the smokies-----you don't need one! carry bear spray if you want to, but you probably won't need it. educate yourself about black bear behavior, then get out there and experience a gorgeous area!

[oldfivetango]

I believe this was mostly "human error". The family apparently didn't have much experience in the woods, and they probably didn't do any homework about black bears. The kid scared the bear, most likely met its gaze (which isn't smart), then may have turned to run. Granted, this is conjecture; all I'm saying is that I don't think it's all the bear's fault. He (the bear) may have been somewhat used to having humans around, so he didn't scurry away when (if?) he heard the boy.
All in all, a bad scene, but no reason at all to stay away from the Smokies!!

So why did the bear show aggresion to Park Rangers,
who might know something about bear behavior and
psychology,to such an extent that they had to shoot
it?

We will never know.
Oldfivetango

[mudhead]

Why are people so frightened of the woods? I wish people who are scared of the woods would just stay at home under their beds. It's much safer there.
I am afraid to drive around here of late. Come on Labor Day. (Bed has junk under it.)

So why did the bear show aggresion to Park Rangers,
who might know something about bear behavior and
psychology,to such an extent that they had to shoot
it?

We will never know.
Oldfivetango
We will never know for sure. But. I have seen more than one stranger in action. They can get excited about action.

1. It was breathing.

2.They wanted to shut the case, before all the tourists panicked about the killer bear, and left.

[sheepdog]

I was being sarcastic. And not directing my post at you. No intent to offend. My only intent was to inject levity - with a tinge of truth. :sun
No offense taken but, when you quote someone and then post, a reasonable person would believe you're talking to them. Just like now.

[sheepdog]

I believe this was mostly "human error". The family apparently didn't have much experience in the woods, and they probably didn't do any homework about black bears. The kid scared the bear, most likely met its gaze (which isn't smart), then may have turned to run. Granted, this is conjecture; all I'm saying is that I don't think it's all the bear's fault. He (the bear) may have been somewhat used to having humans around, so he didn't scurry away when (if?) he heard the boy.
All in all, a bad scene, but no reason at all to stay away from the Smokies!!
Maybe the kid never saw the bear until he jumped him. I am going to believe the family was right until I hear otherwise. Bad aggressive bear, dead bear. I believe it was best he was removed from the gene pool.

[ed bell]

Before this one gets closed down, I love how a site devoted to such an open-minded activity as hiking has the most restrictive forums on Earth. Who cares if people want to talk about carrying a gun (or not) in the woods? If people care so much about it, I'm sure that means it has some merit to the hiking community, so let people discuss it. After all, isn't that what forums are for?
halibut15,
"the most restrictive forums on Earth"? People can talk about this. Boiling it down to the political, 2nd Amendment aspect of the discussion is the aspect that the Admin. is not ready to accommodate and is the reason for the closing of the other thread. If you have a problem with the moderation on this site please refrain from complaining in the open forums. Personal correspondence with the Administrators is the proper way to voice your concerns.

[take-a-knee]

just a note about guns in the smokies-----you don't need one! carry bear spray if you want to, but you probably won't need it. educate yourself about black bear behavior, then get out there and experience a gorgeous area!

Yeah, just sprinkle a little granola around and feel the love man!

[trouthunter]

I would say that if the boy was in or near water, he was at risk.
Standing in a stream can be perceived by bears as a territory grab.
Same with wandering around picking edibles that you think you discovered.
If you find a berry patch, you can rest assured you did not discover it at all! That area has been visited numerous times, possibly for several years, and if we could smell as good as bears we would realize that the area had already been scent marked.

There are entirely too many people wandering into these areas with little or no understanding of bear behavior!!

Unlike some, I believe you have the right to defend yourself however you see fit, the bear makes a conscious decision to charge/attack even though it IS instinct driven.
Bears often "give way" to larger bears during mating season or in territory disputes. That indicates a conscious decision on the part of the bear.
This also happens fairly often when bears who still have their natural fear of humans, encounter hikers. Sometimes they they make the decision to attack, although this usually happens when a bear is startled, a sow is defending her young, or when stupid hikers are tying to pick blackberries that do not belong to them!

We must realize that we are in the bears habitat, and the rules are different there, we must be respectful of the bears natural instinct to defend both it's territory and it's young. Too many people put themselves at risk with their arrogant behavior.
Humans are not "cock of the walk" in these areas.

[take-a-knee]

I would say that if the boy was in or near water, he was at risk.
Standing in a stream can be perceived by bears as a territory grab.
Same with wandering around picking edibles that you think you discovered.
If you find a berry patch, you can rest assured you did not discover it at all! That area has been visited numerous times, possibly for several years, and if we could smell as good as bears we would realize that the area had already been scent marked.

There are entirely too many people wandering into these areas with little or no understanding of bear behavior!!

Unlike some, I believe you have the right to defend yourself however you see fit, the bear makes a conscious decision to charge/attack even though it IS instinct driven.
Bears often "give way" to larger bears during mating season or in territory disputes. That indicates a conscious decision on the part of the bear.
This also happens fairly often when bears who still have their natural fear of humans, encounter hikers. Sometimes they they make the decision to attack, although this usually happens when a bear is startled, a sow is defending her young, or when stupid hikers are tying to pick blackberries that do not belong to them!

We must realize that we are in the bears habitat, and the rules are different there, we must be respectful of the bears natural instinct to defend both it's territory and it's young. Too many people put themselves at risk with their arrogant behavior.
Humans are not "cock of the walk" in these areas.

Oh, I get it now, bears are people too.

[sheepdog]

Maybe the bear was a troublesome punk. He may have flunked out of reform school and ran away from home. He probably started out by hurting other smaller animals and worked his way up to humans.
It probably wasn't easy growing up on the wrong side of the creek, being taunted by the spotted owls "I'm an endangered species. You are just a common black bear."

[trouthunter]

HAHA, no bears are not people too.
I just meant that by understanding how the bears see things (their perspective) we humans can use our superior intellect to avoid trouble.

Case in point: dumb campers I watched gut fish close to their camp and then act surprised when critters invaded the area.
Fish should be gutted in moving water so the entrails are carried downstream. Not left on the creek bank to attract bears and such.
When I offered this advise they looked at me like I was crazy, and said quote: "We got somethin for them bears"

[take-a-knee]

HAHA, no bears are not people too.
I just meant that by understanding how the bears see things (their perspective) we humans can use our superior intellect to avoid trouble.

Case in point: dumb campers I watched gut fish close to their camp and then act surprised when critters invaded the area.
Fish should be gutted in moving water so the entrails are carried downstream. Not left on the creek bank to attract bears and such.
When I offered this advise they looked at me like I was crazy, and said quote: "We got somethin for them bears"

I get it trouble here for calling stupid people stupid but that is the only way to describe such people. For one thing, if you shoot a bear in self defense, you are likely going to wind up in court over it. If the DNR ranger determines your negligence contributed to the confrontation they can make you "replace" the bear, that would typically be a tidy sum, likely thousands.

[OregonHiker]

Even better idea is for scaredy cats to just carry fire-crackers. Same as shooting a gun in the air, into the ground, wherever, except you can set off a whole bunch of them at once. AND no chance of shooting yourself or any innocent bystanders.

I'm hereby asking the Moderator to closed this thread. I should have posted it in Straight Forward, to avoid all the sanctimonious and irrelevant NRA-speech. The answer to every problem in the world is not dropping a bomb or shooting a gun.

Rain:sunMan

.


This didn't happen on the AT? Why did you post it at all? :D

[sheepdog]

I get it trouble here for calling stupid people stupid but that is the only way to describe such people. For one thing, if you shoot a bear in self defense, you are likely going to wind up in court over it. If the DNR ranger determines your negligence contributed to the confrontation they can make you "replace" the bear, that would typically be a tidy sum, likely thousands.
We have a saying in law enforcement "better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six." Having said that, using a firearm is always the last resort. If your going to carry a firearm you better be well trained and familiar with it. Like take-a-knee said right or wrong, you most likely will be in court defending your actions.

[trouthunter]

I'll bet there have been many more bear shootings than the ones reported, because people do not want legal trouble. Also probably by people who may have created a dangerous situation due to their ignorance. Sometimes it may be necessary to use deadly force to defend yourself, but I think most people do not do enough to avoid trouble to begin with. Life is full of risk, but wise people manage that risk and try to be prepared.
I'm not against carrying a gun in remote areas, you probably will never need it except to hold your map down in the wind, but WAY too many people squeeze off a few hundred rounds at a static target and think they are ready to defend themselves. Usually with no round in the chamber, and the gun packed away somewhere. Same with bear spray, buy two cans and practice with one so you know how it works and acts in the wind.

Without scenario training your possible encounter will be your learning experience, not a good idea!
Hopefully people learn how to avoid trouble altogether, this method works best!
I've been trout fishing in bear country for 28 yrs. and I've found tons of good info on the Internet and in books on bear behavior, I've also volunteered with knowledgeable people so I could learn from them.
I don't understand why some people take days and weeks researching gear and destinations and do not educate themselves about bear safety, or even take first aid classes?
I know most good hikers do, but entirely too many people do not.

[sheepdog]

Some people cause their own problems dealing with dangerous animals. Some are just victims of random assaults. I worked on a survey crew in Alaska for 5 months. We worked 6, 11 hour days. It was all in bear country and the bears and moose used to like to walk our survey lines because they were a nice clear path through the tag alders and devils club. My crew chief gave me some great advice about bears. He said " Don't worry, a bear will only attack you if it is provoked. The problem is, it's up to the bear to decide if it is provoked or not."

You never can tell with a bear. They decide if they are provoked and there is no appeal.

[trouthunter]

Yes, I agree, the bear makes that decision and different bears have different dispositions.
Also depends upon time of year, availability of food ,ect.

There are random assaults. There have been several in the Tennessee Overhill area, Telico area, and I know of a false charge that took place in Benton Tenn. in the Hiwassee River corridor.

Where in Alaska did you work?

[trouthunter]

Correction, Reliance Tenn. Hiawassee River Corridor

[sheepdog]

Where in Alaska did you work?
Thompson pass near Valdez. It was 1975 and I was just a young buck.

[trouthunter]

I have never been to Alaska, actually never been north of South Dakota for that matter.
Alaska is on my short list of places I want to go backpacking some day.

I do like to use Google Earth a lot to "visit" places and get an idea of the terrain and so forth. I also have Microsoft Flight Simulator and can "fly" over a lot of cool places, it's very realistic. I'll check out Thompson Pass, give me something to do till my next trip.
But nothing like really being somewhere, feeling the mist from a waterfall others have only seen pictures of!
I have shared a stream while fishing with a black bear before for about 15 minutes, we were about 75 or 100 yards apart. I backed out slowly, but to tell the truth I was most worried when I could no longer see him. All the sounds that night took on a new meaning!

He did not act aggressive at all, and it did not really bother me too much because of the distance, but it made the whole "encounter thing" very real.

[take-a-knee]

Thompson pass near Valdez. It was 1975 and I was just a young buck.

I drove through Thompson pass in May of 79 on my way to Valdez, I couldn't believe how much snow was still piled on the side of the road.

[sheepdog]

The record snowfall for Thompson pass is an astounding 900 plus inches. The average snowfall is over 600 inches. The 10 ft wooden poles along the side of the road are for snow plow drivers. It is quite a spot.

[Rain Man]

We have a saying in law enforcement "better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six."

Bumper sticker mentality may work in the shallow end of the gene pool, but not with big boys and girls, nor with bears, sometimes more subtle and sophisticated creatures than many shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later homo sapiens.

I see your bumper sticker and call you.
:D
Rain:sunMan

.

[sheepdog]

Bumper sticker mentality may work in the shallow end of the gene pool, but not with big boys and girls, nor with bears, sometimes more subtle and sophisticated creatures than many shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later homo sapiens.

I see your bumper sticker and call you.
:D
Rain:sunMan

.
You paint with a broad brush. No one I know is a shoot first ask questions later person. Sometimes things happen fast and you have to rely on your wits and your training. Then we count on those people who sit in arm charis who are so wise and deep in the genes to tell us what we did wrong. So it's "better to be tried by twelve than carried by six." Not a bumber sticker but a fact of life for people who must make instant decisions.
Why the name calling? I'd like to meet you sometime. I'll bet we agree on a lot more stuff than we disagree on.

[trouthunter]

It only takes a few stupid yahoos to create a false image of those of us who are RESPONSIBLE gun owners!
I for one am tired of getting lumped in that category by people who do not know me or how involved I am in animal rescue and rehabilitation, or the huge amount of respect I have for any creature who can survive in the wilderness with no gear.

In all fairness to Rain Man I do/would support a law requiring ALL gun purchases to be preceded by a safety course administered by SLED, maybe even an IQ test would be in order! The background check/permit system does not work because criminals/stupid people do not buy guns retail!!!

I also bet that if someone takes the time to get to know me they would find a friend who is well reasoned, responsible, and has a great respect for my fellow man and the wildlife I encounter.

[oldfivetango]

So would you favor an IQ test for drivers?
What about training?Nobody in my family was ever
"trained" to drive.
What about recurrent training for drivers who were never trained in
the first place?
What about locking up all those people that text,talk on the cell,
eat,drink,play with the cd player,or worse,their GPS ?
And how about the ones that put on makeup while driving?
What about DRUNK DRIVERS?
There's alot more death and destruction caused by stupid motorists
every year than firearms,only difference is that certain politically oriented
people just don't care enough to do anything about it because they just
have a hatred for firearms and the people who own them.
Oldfivetango

[Bob S]

I think the Mint Cookies the Girl Scouts sell are the best, what flavor do you like the most???

[sheepdog]

I think the Mint Cookies the Girl Scouts sell are the best, what flavor do you like the most???
You are obviously from the shallow end of the Jean (wranglers?) pool my friend. Everyone knows the short bread cookies are the best. :D:D:D
You're right, we've whipped this hoss to death!!!!
I'm out.
did i win?:confused:
not that it's important :o
oh well :p

[trouthunter]

:DTest everyone and start with the girl scouts!

The testing part was kinda a joke!

[bucketofguts]

if i see a bear trying to eat you i will do the best i can to help. if you tell me not to hurt it you are on your own. same thing goes for the momma wild hog with her 10 piglets you surprise. i spent $200.00 on GS cookies this year. they know i am a push over. i don,t think they need to be tested! ps don,t be stupid! at least carry a small 38spl wheel gun into the bush!

[Sly]

I'm hereby asking the Moderator to closed this thread. I should have posted it in Straight Forward, to avoid all the sanctimonious and irrelevant NRA-speech. The answer to every problem in the world is not dropping a bomb or shooting a gun.

Rain:sunMan

.

Sure, closed at the OP's request.