View Full Version : Winter bag
I am advising my college aged son on a winter bag purchase for use in Montana, and thought it wise to seek the wisdom from WhiteBlaze.
He is 6'-2", weighs about 190, and takes long hikes. He asked me to help him find a low priced, used 0* bag. My thoughts are that such a bag would be heavy, pack big, probably not meet the 0* rating, and would not be warm enough even if it did. He currently uses a MB#2 with a 50* down summer bag / liner.
I have suggested either a MB Exp rated at -20* http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=28&p_id=1121721
or a WM Kodiak w/ 4 oz of overfill + the foot box overfill. This bag is rated at 0* before adding the overfill. http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=Microfiber%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=38
Does anyone have experience with overfilling bags? How much would it lower the rating on the WM?
Does anyone have experience with either of these bags or care to offer an opinion, or suggest another bag?
I have read a few threads about VBLs for winter use. How much do they lower a bags rating, and don't they make you feel clammy?
Please consider this a straight forward question and keep to the topic/
jaywalke
10-21-2008, 21:30
I have a WM Antelope with the micro-fiber shell. It's rated to 5 degrees, but I could take it to zero if necessary (which it isn't, where I live now). I use it all winter. WM is very conservative in estimating their temp ratings, and I don't think you'd even need the overfill to use the Kodiak at zero.
Their bags are pricey, but with proper care it's a thirty-year plus investment. I've never regretted buying mine.
bigcranky
10-22-2008, 08:34
I also use the Antelope here in the Southeast, and agree with jaywalke -- WM bags are pretty well stuffed.
That said, winter in Montana is a whole 'nother beast. Egads you are right to worry about a zero bag being enough, and a cheap zero bag being anything close to warm. The Kodiak is big enough in girth to allow for both the overfill and for wearing down clothes inside. You might call the Western Mountaineering folks and ask them what sort of bags they sell to people who are winter "hiking" in the upper Rockies.
He is 6'-2", weighs about 190, and takes long hikes. He asked me to help him find a low priced, used 0*
I'm 6'1" and 190#. For 0* I use a Long Montbell #0 (UL SS) and have been fine at 0* and as low as -7F. I've owned a WM down bag in the 20* range and was able to go about the same temperature difference lower as with the MB. Right now I have a 20* FF and have been happy with it, too, although it is slightly heavier.
I would imagine you can get heavy rain and wet snow also, which can be followed immediately by sub-zero, maybe even down to -30F by the next morning. That's a tough combination, especially if travelling on foot. Whether you need a good 0F bag or -20F bag depends on the rest of your system; clothing, gear, food, skills, and where and how far you are going. In winter I've been depending primarily on adequate clothing and food, and fire, and by not going too deep or having multiple exit points, so I've gotten by without much shelter or sleeping bag. I will need to beef both those things up if I want to go a little deeper, but stuff gets heavy also, which slows you down. It would be nice to be able to stay out longer though, safely.
skinewmexico
10-22-2008, 11:01
Wow. I've never really considered Montbell low priced, and certainly not WM.
OK - I called both WM and a Montana WM dealer.
WM said that overfill is available in either the bag or the foot box, but not both. WM said the overfill lowers the rating about 3* from 0* to -3*.
The dealer said he uses a WM Kodiak 0* with the Goretex Wind Stopper fabric. He said this is rated low enough for the valleys. Going to high altitudes or long durations require a bag rated about -15* or -20*.
bigcranky made a good point that both the WM Kodiak and the Montbell are large enough to allow layering inside the bag if needed to extend the range. Also thanks for suggesting I make the calls.:D
skinewmexico, both bags are a substantial investment. They may not be low priced, but they are a good value if they keep you safe & warm.
Have you and he checked out what Ryan Jordan uses in the winter? He's in Montana, too.
The girl I hiked on the JMT with had a -20* Sierra Designs sleeping bag. She was sweltering on the JMT, obviously. But her background was in mountaineering rather than hiking, so she was extremely overprepared for a normal backpacking trip.
My winter bag is from Nunatak, which makes everything to order. One of their options was getting 4" baffles (instead of the normal 3"), and adding up to 8 oz. of down. Pricewise, you'd be kicking it up a notch, though.
skinewmexico, both bags are a substantial investment. They may not be low priced, but they are a good value if they keep you safe & warm.
A well made down bag will last a long time. I am a dirt-bagger with gear. However, one area that should not be stinted on is a sleeping bag.
Western Mountaineering and Feathered Friends are like the BMW and Mercedes of sleeping bags. You really can't go wrong with either brand.
The attention to detail, the durability and the quality are all primo.
As others mentioned, a good down bag will last a long time and is well worth the money.
Good luck!
Have you and he checked out what Ryan Jordan uses in the winter? He's in Montana, too.
Interesting reading on his website. http://www.ryanjordan.com/weblog/
Thanks for the referral
OK - I called both WM and a Montana WM dealer.
WM said that overfill is available in either the bag or the foot box, but not both. WM said the overfill lowers the rating about 3*.
What is the benefit of overfill, if it lowers the rating?
taildragger
10-22-2008, 20:58
What about something like this?
http://www.ems.com/catalog/product_detail_square.jsp?STYLE_GROUP%3C%3East_id= 1408474396003757
I'm not sure how well their bags are rated, or how well they survive in the longevity category, but they always look like a decent deal. Good fill, not too heavy, moderately priced.
What is the benefit of overfill, if it lowers the rating?
I think "lower" in this context means "improves" or "makes the bag work to a lower temperature." Otherwise, as you say, it sure wouldn't make sense to make the bag heavier, more expensive, and not as warm.:rolleyes:
Thanks. I am plum brilliant tonight.
Interesting reading on his website. http://www.ryanjordan.com/weblog/
Thanks for the referral
I heard him at Trail Days '05 in a gear show and tell. He talked a bit about the special challenges of going light in Montana, where the weather can be brutal and your chance of having passing hikers help you out is slim to none. The shelter setup he was showing off there was a tarp and bivy. Tarp for wind and rain protection; bivy for warmth.
Feral Bill
10-22-2008, 21:24
There is no where in Montana I would risk going in winter without a -20 or warmer bag. A good zero bag with a liner would gain flexibility. Also consider the pad. I like a cheap blue foam under a light thermarest. As for weight, your son will have plenty, unless he is dangerously undeprepared.
Sub-zero backpacking is wonderful, but it's no walk in the woods.
What about something like this?
http://www.ems.com/catalog/product_detail_square.jsp?STYLE_GROUP%3C%3East_id= 1408474396003757
I'm not sure how well their bags are rated, or how well they survive in the longevity category, but they always look like a decent deal. Good fill, not too heavy, moderately priced.
I know the EMS 20F version of this bag has received decent reviews. It is like the REI Sub-kilo (its near functional twin). If the Campmor bag is a good budget bag, the EMS/REI 20F down bag is a step up from that bag and a step below the FF and WM bags. Similiar features (weather reistant shell, higher fill power, etc.) , good quality, good price.
So, I suspect the -20F bag you linked is of similar quality. However, I do not know from first hand experience or direct reviews from people I know (unlike to 20F bags). Could be a good winter bag for a good price. But, finding out in the middle of winter is probably not the best way. :)
I am advising my college aged son on a winter bag purchase for use in Montana, and thought it wise to seek the wisdom from WhiteBlaze.
He is 6'-2", weighs about 190, and takes long hikes. He asked me to help him find a low priced, used 0* bag. My thoughts are that such a bag would be heavy, pack big, probably not meet the 0* rating, and would not be warm enough even if it did. He currently uses a MB#2 with a 50* down summer bag / liner.
I have suggested either a MB Exp rated at -20* http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=28&p_id=1121721
or a WM Kodiak w/ 4 oz of overfill + the foot box overfill. This bag is rated at 0* before adding the overfill. http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=Microfiber%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=38
Does anyone have experience with overfilling bags? How much would it lower the rating on the WM?
Does anyone have experience with either of these bags or care to offer an opinion, or suggest another bag?
I have read a few threads about VBLs for winter use. How much do they lower a bags rating, and don't they make you feel clammy?
Please consider this a straight forward question and keep to the topic/
I bought a Feathered Friends Great Auk overbag in the 1990's and had a 2 oz. overfill added (also the premium grade down, which I believe was 850 fill). The bag is rated at 32 degrees in standard mode. My bag has kept me warm down to 5 degrees. I sleep warm anyway, but that might give you an idea what a couple of oz. of down will add to a bag, even if it is a rather straight cut bag like the Great Auk (it has a pad sleeve instead of down underneath).
River Runner
10-23-2008, 03:07
Tinker,
Were you wearing extra clothing with the bag? For most people 2 oz of overfill will NOT add 27 degrees. 5-10 degrees extra would be more normal.
Tinker,
Were you wearing extra clothing with the bag? For most people 2 oz of overfill will NOT add 27 degrees. 5-10 degrees extra would be more normal.
The folks at WM told me overfill improves the bag rating by 3*.
As pads go, in winter I have used two blue foam pads. One is enough on snow, buts sometimes the best shelter is on cold hard ground like under a big tree. One is always full length and extra wide, 72"x28"x3/8", the second one can be smaller. The extra width cuts down alot on the condensation you get if feet or knees or butt goes astray in the middle of the night. It also eliminates the need for a ground sheet. They take up alot of volume but weigh very little and are warmer for their weight than the inflatables.
I like the idea of those sleeping bags that have twice as much down on top as underneath. If you combined that with 2 blue foam pads I think it could be cheap and lighter and more comfortable than 1 blue foam pad and the same amount of down under as over.
The folks at WM told me overfill improves the bag rating by 3*.
Maybe it's just the fact that I sleep warm. I never slept in a FF bag without 2oz. overfill, so I don't have anything to compare it with.
My new WM edge of winter bag is on the way from CA, can't wait to get out in the hills to try it out:banana
I'd even be will to push the temp rating a tad. :D
Campmor has some nice 0 deg. bags part number for this is 40068 it weight 3lbs 8oz.
will fit up to 6ft. 6in. on sale right now 159.00. their wes site is campmor.com here is a picture of the one i am talking about
http://www.campmor.com/images/sleeping/40068.jpg
My new WM edge of winter bag (http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=Microfiber%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=37) is on the way from CA, can't wait to get out in the hills to try it out:banana
I'd even be will to push the temp rating a tad. :D
Very nice. Could I borrow it the week of...
Very nice. Could I borrow it the week of...
Back of the line! http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon2.gif :D
Jim Adams
10-30-2008, 17:54
I know the EMS 20F version of this bag has received decent reviews. It is like the REI Sub-kilo (its near functional twin). If the Campmor bag is a good budget bag, the EMS/REI 20F down bag is a step up from that bag and a step below the FF and WM bags. Similiar features (weather reistant shell, higher fill power, etc.) , good quality, good price.
So, I suspect the -20F bag you linked is of similar quality. However, I do not know from first hand experience or direct reviews from people I know (unlike to 20F bags). Could be a good winter bag for a good price. But, finding out in the middle of winter is probably not the best way. :)
I have an EMS 0* down bag with a pertex shell I think it is called a microlite. It is an honest 0* rating, weighs less than 3 1/2 lbs.,is 5 years old and still looks and works like new. I would buy another one without question....don't want to break your heart but I got it new at an EMS store "closing" for $70. :cool:
geek
Texasgirl
11-01-2008, 23:04
Got a 25 degree Kelty 650-fill down bag that at less than 40 degrees I'm too cold. Been online 3 nights now, looking for a zero degree, < 3 Lbs, down, women's specific bag (I'm short), and reading all your posts/advice (even trying to keep up with Jaks' lengthy, techie info - no offense Jak). :)
I'm so confused. I don't understand how all these can be zero bags, e.g.: Marmot's 600-fill at $250; REI's Kilo 750-fill at $290; and MountainHardwear $425 800-fill (not to mention all the ones in between) can all be zero bags! Is there some reasonable explanation for how 3 different fills, similar identical baffle designs and outer fabric, can all be zeros?
And, just when I prepared to buy the Kilo for a mid-range cost, I read customer reviews complaining the feathers escaped and the hood would get condensation.
Is this one of those times when "you get what you pay for" and go for more expensive higher fill?
P.S. I've already read all your advice about making sure I'm warm in December
All sleeping bags are definitely not created equal. Price usually directly correlates to performance and useful life. The truest measure of a sleeping bag is how thick it is. Inches of loft equals warmth. Cheap sleeping bags have thick spots, but they also have thin spots, which allow heat to seep out. Nicely constructed sleeping bags are made of materials which don't pack down as much over time, and have cunning designs to give them loft in places where it's harder to achieve--at the foot, across the zipper, around the head and shoulders, etc.
OTOH, people definitely use lots of different sleeping bags and survive and thrive. To go cheaper, you generally have to pack more weight for the same degree of warmth.
texasgirl: Is there some reasonable explanation for how 3 different fills, similar identical baffle designs and outer fabric, can all be zeros?Probably the weight.
I just did some serious research on bags before making the big decision.
I ended up getting a 6'0, 850 fill, 5 deg bag @ just under 2.5 lbs.
Price similar to other leading bag mfgs.
Is this one of those times when "you get what you pay for" and go for more expensive higher fill?
Marta: Price usually directly correlates to performance and useful life.
There is a link here to sleeping bag buyers guide (http://www.bcexp.com/guide_sleeping_bags.php) that i thought was well written if you have a few minutes...
Been online 3 nights now, looking for a zero degree, < 3 Lbs, down, women's specific bag (I'm short)
It's good that you are getting it more your size. It will be lighter, but also easier to heat.
Texasgirl
11-02-2008, 12:04
Thanks for the link Woodsy - I'll read it. If I'm spending >$300, I want to know what I'm getting.
I am advising my college aged son on a winter bag purchase for use in Montana, and thought it wise to seek the wisdom from WhiteBlaze.
He is 6'-2", weighs about 190, and takes long hikes. He asked me to help him find a low priced, used 0* bag. My thoughts are that such a bag would be heavy, pack big, probably not meet the 0* rating, and would not be warm enough even if it did. He currently uses a MB#2 with a 50* down summer bag / liner.
I have suggested either a MB Exp rated at -20* http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=28&p_id=1121721
or a WM Kodiak w/ 4 oz of overfill + the foot box overfill. This bag is rated at 0* before adding the overfill. http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=Microfiber%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=38
Does anyone have experience with overfilling bags? How much would it lower the rating on the WM?
Does anyone have experience with either of these bags or care to offer an opinion, or suggest another bag?
I have read a few threads about VBLs for winter use. How much do they lower a bags rating, and don't they make you feel clammy?
Please consider this a straight forward question and keep to the topic/
Ordered the WM Kodiak GWS, w/o overfill today
take-a-knee
12-03-2008, 08:48
Got a 25 degree Kelty 650-fill down bag that at less than 40 degrees I'm too cold. Been online 3 nights now, looking for a zero degree, < 3 Lbs, down, women's specific bag (I'm short), and reading all your posts/advice (even trying to keep up with Jaks' lengthy, techie info - no offense Jak). :)
I'm so confused. I don't understand how all these can be zero bags, e.g.: Marmot's 600-fill at $250; REI's Kilo 750-fill at $290; and MountainHardwear $425 800-fill (not to mention all the ones in between) can all be zero bags! Is there some reasonable explanation for how 3 different fills, similar identical baffle designs and outer fabric, can all be zeros?
And, just when I prepared to buy the Kilo for a mid-range cost, I read customer reviews complaining the feathers escaped and the hood would get condensation.
Is this one of those times when "you get what you pay for" and go for more expensive higher fill?
P.S. I've already read all your advice about making sure I'm warm in December
A "normal" sleeper will need a bag with SEVEN INCHES of total loft to stay warm at zero farenheit. You might another inch. It doesn't make any difference what rating someone has given a bag, if it isn't 7in thick, it ain't a zero degree bag. If you are as cold natured as you say, you should get your thyroid checked.
Ordered the WM Kodiak GWS, w/o overfill today
DNA testing requested, Daddy.
brooklynkayak
12-03-2008, 11:11
I can't believe nobody mentioned it, but I always recommend layering two bags.
That way you have a lighter 3 season bag when not used in the winter.
The outside bag should be water resistant. The inside bag could be a cheaper down bag.
Both pack better than one winter bag.
stevie
Thought I might keep the thread going because I'm curious about something.
My winters are mostly 20F, with a risk of -20F, even -30F.
So the question is simply this, if most winter nights are above 0F, but I need to be able to sleep in -20F, and survive -30F, and I bring an extra layer of long wool underwear in case of a cold snap, then what rating or thinckness of bag is really needed?
I don't use a tent. I use a gortex bivy and tarp and blue foam pad, and its in the woods so not too exposed and we have lots of spruce trees to sleep under also, and I can dry my wool out by day when needed. I sleep warm, but I don't think that really matters in extreme conditions. I am big though. I think that helps some.
I'm thinking about a 3 pound down bag, like the WM Kodiak suggest above.
I'm also wondering if I still need my Gortex Bivy if I go with the GWS.
It's only rated 0F, but its pretty dang thick compared to what I'm used to.
brooklynkayak
12-03-2008, 13:50
My winters are mostly 20F, with a risk of -20F, even -30F.
Well from my limited experience, sometimes +20 can feel colder than -20.
The coldest night I ever slept was +20 deg on the shore of the Atlantic Ocean with a 30+ mph wind and almost 100% humidity.
-30 degrees in a Rocky Mountain valley surrounded by trees doesn't seem as cold. So if you stay away from large bodies of water, you can use a lighter sleeping bag.
I think humidity and wind make a huge difference.
stevie
Yes I agree with that but I've gotten somewhat used to dealing 20F, even a wet and windy 20F, whereas -30F with wind and snow and not much sunshine I've never dealth with long enough to really get ground down. I think 2 or 3 days of it would be a real test.
Got a 25 degree Kelty 650-fill down bag that at less than 40 degrees I'm too cold. Been online 3 nights now, looking for a zero degree, < 3 Lbs, down, women's specific bag (I'm short), and reading all your posts/advice (even trying to keep up with Jaks' lengthy, techie info - no offense Jak). :)
I'm so confused. I don't understand how all these can be zero bags, e.g.: Marmot's 600-fill at $250; REI's Kilo 750-fill at $290; and MountainHardwear $425 800-fill (not to mention all the ones in between) can all be zero bags! Is there some reasonable explanation for how 3 different fills, similar identical baffle designs and outer fabric, can all be zeros?
And, just when I prepared to buy the Kilo for a mid-range cost, I read customer reviews complaining the feathers escaped and the hood would get condensation.
Is this one of those times when "you get what you pay for" and go for more expensive higher fill?
P.S. I've already read all your advice about making sure I'm warm in December
The "fill power" of the down has more to do with weight and size when packed than it does warmth. For instance, the Marmot with the lower quality down may indeed be as warm as the Mountain Hardware, but will likely be significantly heavier and take up more room in your pack. Having extra space in your pack can be a real premium when you're talking about filling your pack with other winter gear.
Some of the better makes, like MH, FF, WM and MB are all real conservative in their ratings, so either of these are likely to be warmer than the Marmot or REI bag. In that regard, yes, you get what you pay for.