Leave your religious message in towns!

[Chaplain]

App Tater: Thanks. I guess that makes a lot of sense, that thru hikers would not leave stuff like that. Yeah, I agree about the folk doing the meal thing and then making you sit through a "witness". Thanks. -SunnyWalker

[Brrrb Oregon]

By "Good shepards" you may not be including Jim and Tammy Baker, the pedophile priests and soo many others? Yet they are surprised that church attendance is down to about only 20%. LOL, then they boost attendance (cash flow) by expanding the base by way of allowing gays and shelter mice. The sage leadership saw the light no doubt. So, are you saying that christian churchs are bad or are you saying the christian churches with the sheeple in them are bad or just the sheeple who don't pack their trash out?:-?

Oh, get off it with the pedophile thing, already. There are pedophile elementary school teachers and coaches (at no lower percentage, if not a higher percentage than in the ranks of anyone's clergy, for that matter), the world is full of obnoxious jocks and people who are book smart and rock stupid, and yet somehow this isn't used as an excuse to attack literacy and exercise as worthy human endeavors.

Most clergy, like most teachers and coaches, spend their lives doing good for others without a lot of compensation or thanks. They don't deserve to be lumped with the predators, any more than all hikers deserve to be lumped with those few who have had their way of giving the rest of us a bad name. You all know what it is like to be unjustly accused like that. You don't have to believe in God to see the fairness in "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

The thread raises a good point, though....that is, it would be polite if people would not leave their paper-bound viewpoints in the shelters, where they encourage the nesting of rodents.

If this thread isn't evidence enough that your Christianity or whatever your viewpoint is will be best spread by St. Francis' maxim--preach always, use words only if necessary--I don't know what is. So save the paper and preach with decent lives, the kind that serve others without strings attached.

[Appalachian Tater]

Oh, get off it with the pedophile thing, already. There are pedophile elementary school teachers and coaches (at no lower percentage, if not a higher percentage than in the ranks of anyone's clergy, for that matter), the world is full of obnoxious jocks and people who are book smart and rock stupid, and yet somehow this isn't used as an excuse to attack literacy and exercise as worthy human endeavors.

Most clergy, like most teachers and coaches, spend their lives doing good for others without a lot of compensation or thanks. They don't deserve to be lumped with the predators, any more than all hikers deserve to be lumped with those few who have had their way of giving the rest of us a bad name. You all know what it is like to be unjustly accused like that. You don't have to believe in God to see the fairness in "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

The thread raises a good point, though....that is, it would be polite if people would not leave their paper-bound viewpoints in the shelters, where they encourage the nesting of rodents.

If this thread isn't evidence enough that your Christianity or whatever your viewpoint is will be best spread by St. Francis' maxim--preach always, use words only if necessary--I don't know what is. So save the paper and preach with decent lives, the kind that serve others without strings attached.

I think the real problem with priests having sexual relations with minors is that the Roman Catholic Church transferred the abusers rather than reporting them to the police, like schools and other organizations do.

[aaroniguana]

That's what hapens when you have a lot of money to lose.

[rickb]

There are pedophile elementary school teachers and coaches (at no lower percentage, if not a higher percentage than in the ranks of anyone's clergy, for that matter)

Really?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex20.htm

[superman]

jesus saves. but what heck is it exactly that he saves? coupons? what?

If folks want saving they should carry the stuff they need to save themselves. "God" and a cell phone may not get the job done.

...and they should hike their own trash out...religious or other wise.

[Newb]

Jesus saves. Moses gets the rebound, He shoots...he scores!

[Jaybird]

"Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life
End over end neither left nor to right
Straight through the heart of them righteous uprights
Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life...."
(writer-Paul Craft)

[superman]

Really?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex20.htm

Good, well written article. I think it might be a bit conservative but it clarifies some aspects of the issue.
There is an element to it that I never hear mentioned. In the late 50s I listened to an interview of a catholic priest. The point of concern was the falling numbers of men entering the priest hood. One of the pivotal issues was "celibacy." The priest was attempting to encourage the pope to discontinue celibacy. His concern was that if that policy was left in place that the church would have to dig deeper into the barrel of prospective priests. The priest's fear was that those prospective priests would prove to be problematic to the church in the long run. He did not overtly say "perverted priests" but his choice of words were carefully crafted.

I don't personally care what people have for "god" beliefs but the institutions of religion suck. I suspect that "god" is a three foot tall gray alien. Not that there's anything wrong with three feet tall gray aliens. Even three feet tall gray aliens should carry all their trash out and not leave it in shelters. :welcome

[oldfivetango]

If all "Christians" did was "be faithful in sharing the good news that Jesus the Christ loved us so much that He came to earth to die on the cross for our redemption..." we probably would not be having discussions like these. Too many of your brothers and sisters go way beyond that, and use their religious dogmas to legislate how we ALL live.

I would be willing to venture that of the 17,000 plus "hits" this
thread has had that bout 90% of them think Christian prosletyzing
is not necessarily a good thing.As a Christian I would tend to agree
because most of the people carrying the "message" want to impress
upon the unsuspecting person that the messenger is usually more
"saved" and "holier" than their listener and "here's the proof."But if you are
one of those that think the Christians and Religious Right are totally
out of control-just try to imagine a world where Islam rules entirely.
I can hardly imagine a scarier thought!:D
Oldfivetango

[Skyline]

I would be willing to venture that of the 17,000 plus "hits" this
thread has had that bout 90% of them think Christian prosletyzing
is not necessarily a good thing.As a Christian I would tend to agree
because most of the people carrying the "message" want to impress
upon the unsuspecting person that the messenger is usually more
"saved" and "holier" than their listener and "here's the proof."But if you are
one of those that think the Christians and Religious Right are totally
out of control-just try to imagine a world where Islam rules entirely.
I can hardly imagine a scarier thought!:D
Oldfivetango

You are correct, sir. Today's Islamist extremists are scarier than Christian extremists.

The silver lining here is that we can point to the Islamists and say with certainty that if we're not careful, Christianists will catch up to them in the scary dept. They have in the distant past.

[oldfivetango]

Good news,Sky.Even the most extreme Christians will still
listen to music,drink wine,and dance.Not so the Islamics.
And Christian women can still show some ankle and hair.
Also,they won't cut your head off just yet if you don't
care to believe.:D
Oldfivetango

[Mags]

listen to music,drink wine,and dance.Not so the Islamics.




That's not entirely correct.

Just as Christianity is a large umbrella, so is Islam.

There is the division that most people know of (Shiia, Sunni) and numerous other sects. In Africa, you have Islam glommed onto native animism. You have the very strict interpetation of the Wahhabiis (think Saudi Arabia) then there is Sufism. Art, poetry, music..very sensual.

Perhaps the most famous Sufi known to Westerners is al-Rumi. His poetry has been translated into English and is widely read to this day.

I always loved this line from him:

"The only lasting beauty is the beauty of the heart"

Good stuff.

[Yahtzee]

Also,they won't cut your head off just yet if you don't
care to believe.:D

Um, the Crusades. The Inquisition. If anything, they taught the extremists of today how it is done.

I made it to NJ in '99 before I went off on Optimist, who felt the need to prostelystize every day in every shelter. To each there own, and faith (as opposed to religion) is a wonderful thing, but there is only so much a society can take. Thus, the recent spate of best-selling books by atheists and the decline in churchgoers in this country.

And that link to religious tolerance that "surveyed" priests and offered "data" based on that info was a crock. As a surviving Catholic (never abused thankfully) I can tell you repressed sexuality and its vile side effects are evident in every parish I have ever been to. If you think the abuse problem is fixed (tho "fixing" those priests would be satisfying) you are naive. They are simply transferring the culprits to Africa these days.
The arrogance of the Roman Catholic Church is staggering. The reputation of the Church comes before the welfare of children. Always has and always will.

I look longingly at the 1 billion atheists in China and hope as they adopt our capitalism, we adopt their atheism.

The dying of religion in this country is, to me, the lone bright spot in cloudy cloudy future.

And remember, Jesus Slaves!

[Skyline]

Good news,Sky.Even the most extreme Christians will still
listen to music,drink wine,and dance.Not so the Islamics.
And Christian women can still show some ankle and hair.
Also,they won't cut your head off just yet if you don't
care to believe.:D
Oldfivetango

Being a resident of the Deep South, surely you have met Christians who think many types of music, drinking wine or other adult beverages, and (gasp!) dancing will lead one to ruin and damnation. But as long as you aren't black, gay, or Jewish they probably wouldn't lynch you.

[superman]

I try not to single out the pope lovers since there is so much Christian dirty laundry that could be aired in most churches it seems unfair to dog only one of them. The point of my last post was that the Catholic Church knew in advance the course that they plotted when keep the policy of celibacy and to prop up their dwindling priest hood. This is not un-like the tobacco industry revelations. The problem was that they knew that by recruiting the assorted perverts that people, including children, would be abused. How did the church know in advance that the would be priests were perverts. There has always been an on going flow of perverts trying to get into the priest hood and the church had long been able to identify them. The church had the cover up policy already in place as these low lifes were ordained as priests. This was no surprise to the pope folk leaders...they didn't make errors in judgment on a case by case basis as it evolved. This was a systemic policy that was carried out by the upper echelons of the church. This wasn't even pious hypocrisy...it was overtly criminal and criminally immoral behavior by a clergy. With all that has been disclosed...and I think it's only the tip of the iceberg...the papists and it's sheeple beat the drum to this day that the allegations are false and are only being made to get money from the poor church. Bull-ony, this is a system of policies that go all the way to Rome. There were those who spoke out to purge the church but they were quieted...and so it goes.
The thing is that the pope’s guys wouldn't leave religious junk in the shelters unless someone was paying full price for them.

[oldfivetango]

Being a resident of the Deep South, surely you have met Christians who think many types of music, drinking wine or other adult beverages, and (gasp!) dancing will lead one to ruin and damnation. But as long as you aren't black, gay, or Jewish they probably wouldn't lynch you.

Actually Sky,old stereotypes die hard.I know plenty of Good Ole
Southern Baptists deacons who take a nip every now and then
and have alot of other"vices" I don't care to mention.They just want to
act extra pious on Sundays to make up for it is all...........
And we haven't had a lynching down here in my lifetime(55yrs)that
I am aware of.I have never known anyone who beat up a gay,black,
or Jewish person,period.That is not to say it has never happened but
I am not aware of any acts of violence against someone that would
qualify as a "hate crime."We do have plenty of gang activity in certain
cities though but it is mostly confined to gang vs gang activity.Overall
there is as much or actually more TOLERANCE here than ever before and
alot more than in other parts of the country.And,generally speaking,we
are not as ignorant and inbred as alot of people from "up North" would
like to believe.Most of us own more than one pair of shoes and some of
us even have college educations.:D But we do love our SUV's and 4 wheel
drives,NASCAR,and wrestling.I have yet to figure out the attraction for the
last two btw but as my grandma once said."It takes all kinds."
Oldfivetango

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Bibles are just like any other book -- they are bound and the pages don't end up scattered. They may or may not end up as mouse nesting material. The religious material that I found offensive were tracts. First good wind that hits the shelter entrance blows them everywhere and they get scattered all over. I would feel the same about any group that left loose material in a shelter - but religious tracts are the only such items I've ever seen.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Being a resident of the Deep South, surely you have met Christians who think many types of music, drinking wine or other adult beverages, and (gasp!) dancing will lead one to ruin and damnation. But as long as you aren't black, gay, or Jewish they probably wouldn't lynch you.I have some history with such a group -- IMO they wrote the book is how to be a hypocrite. I've never seen any group that had more extramarital affairs, bragged more about things like cheating on their taxes and committed more hienous character assassinations without a shred of proof. IMO there will be such congregations in hell.

[Dr O]

I don't personally care what people have for "god" beliefs but the institutions of religion suck. I suspect that "god" is a three foot tall gray alien. Not that there's anything wrong with three feet tall gray aliens. Even three feet tall gray aliens should carry all their trash out and not leave it in shelters. :welcome

I, for one, welcome our new 3 feet tall grey alien overlords.

[oldfivetango]

I have some history with such a group -- IMO they wrote the book is how to be a hypocrite. I've never seen any group that had more extramarital affairs, bragged more about things like cheating on their taxes and committed more hienous character assassinations without a shred of proof. IMO there will be such congregations in hell.

Sounds like the local Baptists that I know.If they don't know
something about somebody-they make it up!:D
And then there's my father-in-law who embezzled from
his own son-but he is at the local Methodist church every
time they open the door or ring the bell.Oh yeah,they are
everywhere.
Oldfivetango

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

::: Dino faints as she and O5T have agreed on something ::::

[D'Artagnan]

I've always considered faith to be an intensely personal matter and felt the louder the "faithful" the shallower the faith. It's been my experience that the quiet people who actually live their faith are the ones who get things done for the right reasons and don't seek acknowledgement or praise for their actions. I guess that's why I have such disdain for television preachers -- everyone from Bakker to Falwell to Osteen. They and their kind have done more to damage Christianity than most. If I wanted to listen to a used car salesman, I would go to a used car lot, not a church.

[dperry]

and the decline in churchgoers in this country.

Of course, a decline in church attendence is not necessarily a decline in faith. Not to mention the strong evidence that alternative religious groups (i.e., people meeting in houses, on the Net, etc.) are exploding.



I look longingly at the 1 billion atheists in China and hope as they adopt our capitalism, we adopt their atheism.Even tossing out the Confucians, Buddhists, and Taoists (all of which may or may not be theistic, depending on how you look at it), the Chinese goverment's own estimates are that some 40 million people are either Christian or Muslim, and the government's estimates are considered by many to be quite conservative. It's also pretty clear that the numbers are growing. Maybe they're picking up other things besides capitalism. :D

[dperry]

I've always considered faith to be an intensely personal matter and felt the louder the "faithful" the shallower the faith. It's been my experience that the quiet people who actually live their faith are the ones who get things done for the right reasons and don't seek acknowledgement or praise for their actions. I guess that's why I have such disdain for television preachers -- everyone from Bakker to Falwell to Osteen. They and their kind have done more to damage Christianity than most. If I wanted to listen to a used car salesman, I would go to a used car lot, not a church.

"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."
--Matthew 6:1-8

Having said that, the Lord made it pretty clear that Christians have a duty to spread His Word. I would argue, however, that trying to cram it down the throats of those who obviously don't want to listen to it (at least right then) is bad both morally and practically.

[Blissful]

Actually lots of people leave their old data book pages lying around shelters. I find that inexcusable. Most shelters are huge garbage pits. Paper, clothes, shoes that don't match (Darlington had four sandals all in a row, none of which matched). And food galore, enough to satisfy the most ravenous rodent.

As for Bibles and tracts, I saw very few if any at shelters I visited. In fact I'm trying to think of a time I did see them. Maybe a couple of times, but I really can't recall. But there sure were plenty of paperback novels in shelters. Great mouse fodder right there.

And as for Christians who are drunks or immoral or whatever, I'm not following their religion or lifestyle. Nor organized religion for that matter. I (try to) follow the Bible (by God's grace, that is). For certain I've had enough miracles on my hike thus far to claim a try and true belief in the existence of God (and a God who cares about even the little things).

[Chaplain]

Report of hiking Amicolola Lodge to Unicore Gap:
I visited each shelter between these two spots and found only one(1) "religious message", at Stover Creek Gap shelter. A Bible . . . it was a good read. -SunnyWalker

[aaroniguana]

Having said that, the Lord made it pretty clear that Christians have a duty to spread His Word. I would argue, however, that trying to cram it down the throats of those who obviously don't want to listen to it (at least right then) is bad both morally and practically.

Thank you dperry. I wish all Christians held your ethic. Some make it hard to be a heathen these days but I suppose that's all part of the deal.

[JAK]

What about brand names on clothing and stuff? You are going to run into all sorts of people on a pilgrimage, just like Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, written long long ago. Like it or not, the AT is a pilgrimage. After all that is what 300,000,000 people do to a country, same as happened to Europe and China. To its credit, it is a pilgrimage that is still open to all faiths, including none, and all walks of life. As far a leaving bibles in shelters, I don't see that as being such a terrible thing, unless there is one there already. If you really want to be a purist, why stay in shelters? Just one opinion. Of course I agree with the contrary opinion also. They are all good.

[Monkeyboy]

How is leaving a bible at a shelter considered "cramming it down your throat"?

If a Christian were staying at a shelter day after day after day waiting to evangelize to you, then I say yeah, they are cramming it down your throat.

But to leave a bible is like the tuning knob on your television or radio....you can watch it, or not.

Is every hotel in the world trying to cram it down your throat also. Don't hear anyone complaining about the Gideon's bible I've seen in every hotel room I've ever stayed in....

[Skyline]

How is leaving a bible at a shelter considered "cramming it down your throat"?

If a Christian were staying at a shelter day after day after day waiting to evangelize to you, then I say yeah, they are cramming it down your throat.

But to leave a bible is like the tuning knob on your television or radio....you can watch it, or not.

Is every hotel in the world trying to cram it down your throat also. Don't hear anyone complaining about the Gideon's bible I've seen in every hotel room I've ever stayed in....

Leaving the religious materials in shelters is a problem insofar as it winds up as litter that the maintainer must carry out, mice use it for nesting materials, etc. But beyond that, the mere presence of a Bible—from the POV of someone who doesn't take it that seriously any more—isn't a big deal: maybe a 2 on a scale of 1 to 10. Same for the Gideons.

People who leave religious materials in shelters IMHO are a bit presumptuous that people who frequent shelters either want or need said materials. Kind of like if someone went up the trail leaving pamphlets titled "Lynch The War Mongerer Bush" or "Gays Are People Too" or "Exterminate All Dogs." It would be offensive to some, unwelcome, and just as presumptuous. Even though I might agree with the first two pamphlets. :-)

The trail just isn't the place to argue about controversial subjects including religion. That's what WB is for! :-)

[Monkeyboy]

How is leaving a Bible in a shelter starting a controversial arguement?

I've seen the bibles in shelters....usually put away on a beam in a ziploc bag.

Doesn't seem too threatening to me....

And what is this BS that gays are people too?!?!? Why wasn't I informed?

.......just kidding.

[Skyline]

Actually Sky,old stereotypes die hard.I know plenty of Good Ole
Southern Baptists deacons who take a nip every now and then
and have alot of other"vices" I don't care to mention.They just want to
act extra pious on Sundays to make up for it is all...........
And we haven't had a lynching down here in my lifetime(55yrs)that
I am aware of.I have never known anyone who beat up a gay,black,
or Jewish person,period.That is not to say it has never happened but
I am not aware of any acts of violence against someone that would
qualify as a "hate crime."We do have plenty of gang activity in certain
cities though but it is mostly confined to gang vs gang activity.Overall
there is as much or actually more TOLERANCE here than ever before and
alot more than in other parts of the country.And,generally speaking,we
are not as ignorant and inbred as alot of people from "up North" would
like to believe.Most of us own more than one pair of shoes and some of
us even have college educations.:D But we do love our SUV's and 4 wheel
drives,NASCAR,and wrestling.I have yet to figure out the attraction for the
last two btw but as my grandma once said."It takes all kinds."
Oldfivetango

O5T I spent a hunk of my childhood in a small town in Georgia (Dublin), one year in Mississippi (Clarksdale). I'm not far from your age. I have definitely seen the results of the Klan in Mississippi, sadly some of it caused by relatives. I did not see any in Georgia, but I know it was there. You must live a very blessed, or sheltered, life if you are 55 and know nothing first or second hand about the hate crimes that permeated a certain era in the South.

Today, the South is a more tolerant place compared to my youth. And I know that there are racists, anti-semites, and homophobes up north. I chose to move back to the South myself over 15 years ago because I like it here, tho I know I'm a bit too progressive for some of my neighbors. We're still (mostly) friends, tho.

[Skyline]

How is leaving a Bible in a shelter starting a controversial arguement?

I've seen the bibles in shelters....usually put away on a beam in a ziploc bag.

Doesn't seem too threatening to me....

And what is this BS that gays are people too?!?!? Why wasn't I informed?

.......just kidding.



Organized religion is one of mankind's longest running controversies. Materials that promote or demonize a certain religious POV are the basis for some controversial arguments.

[Monkeyboy]

Organized religion is one of mankind's longest running controversies. Materials that promote or demonize a certain religious POV are the basis for some controversial arguments.


So the Bible starts an argument with you? Do you speak to inanimate objects often?

[Morning Glory]

Leaving the religious materials in shelters is a problem insofar as it winds up as litter that the maintainer must carry out, mice use it for nesting materials, etc.


So should I assume that you also have a problem with shelter registers also?

[Brrrb Oregon]

How is leaving a bible at a shelter considered "cramming it down your throat"?

If a Christian were staying at a shelter day after day after day waiting to evangelize to you, then I say yeah, they are cramming it down your throat.

But to leave a bible is like the tuning knob on your television or radio....you can watch it, or not.

Is every hotel in the world trying to cram it down your throat also. Don't hear anyone complaining about the Gideon's bible I've seen in every hotel room I've ever stayed in....

Well, people kind of expect hotels and motels to control the rodent population that make leaving tracts in shelters a problem. As rodents are a fact of life in shelters, the Gideons (for one example) have apparently taken that into account.

We have to remember, too, that a) perception is reality and b) intention does not always translate into the intended results. If the intention is to witness the Gospel, keep in mind that a fair subsection of our fellow hikers find religious literature not an inspiration to other hikers, but rather an encouragement to mice...evidence of thoughtlessness, not caring. The intention might be to spread the word of God, but the actual effect might wind up being the spread of hantavirus.

It might be refreshing if there were a thread in which the prevailing sentiment was, "I don't care much for a lot of the Christians out in the rest of the world, but having found I had been travelled a day behind several bunches of them, I have to admit that they leave the shelters cleaner than anyone else on the trail."

Just a thought.

[superman]

Controversial...it's not controversial. What kind of fuzzy thinking nut bag is going to believe that Mary was a virgin? Just because she sold that nonsense to Joseph doesn’t make it so,LOL. The bible is just more trash and should be packed out if you pack it in.

[Lone Wolf]

every shelter i've seen in vermont has all kinds of crap in them. LNT doesn't exist up here

[Monkeyboy]

Well, people kind of expect hotels and motels to control the rodent population that make leaving tracts in shelters a problem. As rodents are a fact of life in shelters, the Gideons (for one example) have apparently taken that into account.

We have to remember, too, that a) perception is reality and b) intention does not always translate into the intended results. If the intention is to witness the Gospel, keep in mind that a fair subsection of our fellow hikers find religious literature not an inspiration to other hikers, but rather an encouragement to mice...evidence of thoughtlessness, not caring. The intention might be to spread the word of God, but the actual effect might wind up being the spread of hantavirus.

It might be refreshing if there were a thread in which the prevailing sentiment was, "I don't care much for a lot of the Christians out in the rest of the world, but having found I had been travelled a day behind several bunches of them, I have to admit that they leave the shelters cleaner than anyone else on the trail."

Just a thought.

So a Christian can't leave a Bible in a ziploc bag, but hikers can leave mounds of trash, both cans and paper, behind at a campsite, and that's acceptable?

[Monkeyboy]

Controversial...it's not controversial. What kind of fuzzy thinking nut bag is going to believe that Mary was a virgin? Just because she sold that nonsense to Joseph doesn’t make it so,LOL. The bible is just more trash and should be packed out if you pack it in.


But leaving a fiction novel would be acceptable.....

[Heater]

So a Christian can't leave a Bible in a ziploc bag, but hikers can leave mounds of trash, both cans and paper, behind at a campsite, and that's acceptable?

Who said that is acceptable? You are making things up again. Putting up strawmen.

[Heater]

But leaving a fiction novel would be acceptable.....

Who said that is acceptable? You are making things up again. Putting up strawmen. Again.

[Skyline]

So the Bible starts an argument with you? Do you speak to inanimate objects often?

No, the people who view it as a legal contract the rest of us must follow do. The Bible's presence sometimes begins the conversation.

[superman]

But leaving a fiction novel would be acceptable.....

I have consistantly stated that all trash packed in should be packed out. I have never once said "except for."

[Skyline]

So should I assume that you also have a problem with shelter registers also?

No, shelter registers are almost totally trail-related. They are accepted and expected. They are usually appreciated by those staying at shelters. The better shelters have a mouse-proof or at least mouse-resistant place to store a register. They are the one printed item trail clubs and partners like the National Park Service encourage.

But catalogs, novels, non-fiction, porno, religious booklets, Bibles/Korans, phone books, school books, and a hundred other types of printed materials are not expected, and not generally welcomed by the maintainers who must pack them or their mouse-chewed remains out.

[Skyline]

So a Christian can't leave a Bible in a ziploc bag, but hikers can leave mounds of trash, both cans and paper, behind at a campsite, and that's acceptable?

Monkeyboy, I'm sure you must know leaving trash behind is NOT acceptable. Whether it's religious trash or secular trash—it's trash.

[Brrrb Oregon]

So a Christian can't leave a Bible in a ziploc bag, but hikers can leave mounds of trash, both cans and paper, behind at a campsite, and that's acceptable?

A) Who said the rest of it was acceptable?
B) Where did Jesus ever say you ought to define your behavior based on what the rest of the world does?

The message is not that leaving Bibles in ziploc bags in unacceptable per se. The message is that the consequences may not be the intended ones. When you get feedback, you don't have to act on it, but it is well to at least take it into account.....what may be useful in terms of arriving at the intended result is worth listening to.

My take on this that not many outside the choir are objecting to those who object to leaving literature. Maybe I missed a post, but I'm not reading, "Hey, you may not like it, but there have been times when I was glad they left it, so there." It's just my take on it, but I think that the feedback is worth taking into account.

By suggesting that Christians would do well to distinguish themselves by how clean they leave the shelters, I'm guess suggesting that this may come under the heading of "if someone presses you to go one mile, go two."

As I said, just a thought. If it has no weight with you or is not helpful, then ignore it, and forgive the source.

[aaroniguana]

Don't hear anyone complaining about the Gideon's bible I've seen in every hotel room I've ever stayed in....

You don't hear. Are you listening? Apparently not. I ask that bibles be removed when I make reservations. I know at least 15 other people who do the same. Would you be OK sleeping with a Pentacle over your bed? If so you're more tolerant than many of your peers. If it's not the symbol, it's the symbolism. And stop taking it personally. You act like non-christians shouldn't have this choice.

[JAK]

Don't make me go down that "shelter from the storm" path. LOL
Too late. I'll try and keep it condensed.

Shelter from the Storm - Bob Dylan
"Beauty walks a razor's edge, someday I'll make it mine."

Razor's Edge - W. Somerset Maugham
"The sharp edge of a razor is difficult to pass over; thus the wise say the path to Salvation is hard."

Death Instructing Nachiketa - 'Katha Upanishad'
"Get up! Wake up! Seek the guidance of an
Illumined teacher and realize the Self.
Sharp like a razor's edge is the path,
The sages say, difficult to traverse."


THE RAZOR’S EDGE OF BARGAINS - Cotton Incorporated
"W. Somerset Maugham said, “The sharp edge of a razor is difficult to pass over.” For consumers, the sharp appeal of a sale is hard to pass up, but for retailers, the blade can only cut so deep. "


Well, I guess not all paths lead to enlightenment.

[JAK]

Maybe these books are being left by the fairies.
I wouldn't mess with the fairies.

[JAK]

The Fairies' Hill

Scotland

There is a green hill above Kintraw, known as the Fairies' Hill, of which the following story is told.
Many years ago, the wife of the farmer at Kintraw fell ill and died, leaving two or three young children. The Sunday after the funeral the farmer and his servants went to church, leaving the children at home in charge of the eldest, a girl of about ten years of age. On the farmer's return the children told him their mother had been to see them, and had combed their hair and dressed them. As they still persisted in their statement after being remonstrated with, they were punished for telling what was not true.
The following Sunday the same thing occurred again. The father now told the children, if their mother came again, they were in inquire of her why she came. Next Sunday, when she reappeared, the eldest child put her father's question to her, when the mother told them she had been carried off by the "Good People" (Daione Sìth), and could only get away for an hour or two on Sundays, and should her coffin be opened it would be found to contain only a withered leaf.
The farmer, much perplexed, went to the minister for advice, who scoffed at the idea of any supernatural connection with the children's story, ridiculed the existence of "Good People," and would not allow the coffin to be opened. The matter was therefore allowed to rest. But, some little time after, the minister, who had gone to Lochgilphead for the day, was found lying dead near the Fairies' Hill, a victim, many people thought, to the indignation of the Fairy world he had laughed at.

[Monkeyboy]

The point was not a straw man.....

The point was that the very hikers that complain about a Bible being in the shelter are some of the same hikers that leave trash by the bag full in the shelter, all the while complaining of the Bible being mouse bedding.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy....

And don't tell me hikers don't leave trash.

Our scout troop just cleaned as much trash as we could hike out of every single shelter in GA we came across. Some of it placed into bags and hung from the bear bags. Despicable.

[Monkeyboy]

You know....the same scouts that some of these very hikers complain about being "hoodlums"....

Guess they were good enough to clean up after you.

[Skidsteer]

So a Christian can't leave a Bible in a ziploc bag, but hikers can leave mounds of trash, both cans and paper, behind at a campsite, and that's acceptable?

Neither is acceptable.

Signed,

a Christian

[Monkeyboy]

You don't hear. Are you listening? Apparently not. I ask that bibles be removed when I make reservations. I know at least 15 other people who do the same. Would you be OK sleeping with a Pentacle over your bed? If so you're more tolerant than many of your peers. If it's not the symbol, it's the symbolism. And stop taking it personally. You act like non-christians shouldn't have this choice.


Maybe its because the majority of Americans are not Satanic.....or pagan Gaelic Druids.....

[superman]

Maybe its because the majority of Americans are not Satanic.....or pagan Gaelic Druids.....

Maybe they should be.:-?

[Heater]

The point was not a straw man.....

Oh really? That is EXACTLY what they were.

A straw man argument (http://www.answers.com/topic/argument-form) is an informal fallacy (http://www.answers.com/topic/informal-fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute (http://www.answers.com/topic/objection-argument), then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical (http://www.answers.com/topic/rhetoric) technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

See the bold print? That is exacly what you did.

You MADE UP dialogue and presented it in a way that others would think you were quoting the text of another poster to enhance and further your weak argurments. Your credibility is zilch.

Go back under your rock or show me where anyone in this thread said "leaving a fiction novel would be acceptable" or that "hikers can leave mounds of trash, both cans and paper, behind at a campsite, and that's acceptable". I challenge you to do so or admit that you were setting up a strawman.

Of course, you will do neither because you lack the credibility. ;)

[Chache]

Leave the dang Bible. I need the toilet paper:eek:

[Monkeyboy]

Oh really? That is EXACTLY what they were.

A straw man argument (http://www.answers.com/topic/argument-form) is an informal fallacy (http://www.answers.com/topic/informal-fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute (http://www.answers.com/topic/objection-argument), then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical (http://www.answers.com/topic/rhetoric) technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

See the bold print? That is exacly what you did.

You MADE UP dialogue and presented it in a way that others would think you were quoting the text of another poster to enhance and further your weak argurments. Your credibility is zilch.

Go back under your rock or show me where anyone in this thread said "leaving a fiction novel would be acceptable" or that "hikers can leave mounds of trash, both cans and paper, behind at a campsite, and that's acceptable". I challenge you to do so or admit that you were setting up a strawman.

Of course, you will do neither because you lack the credibility. ;)

First, there are multiple threads on what to take hiking. Some suggested taking novels, and when finished, leave them for someone else to read. Search it yourself.

Second, I hear that leaving the Bible is equivalent to leaving trash, and yet I see mounds of trash left at shelters. I even read posts of people burning their trash so as not to have to hike it out, which leaves even more of a mess than just leaving the trash whole and unburnt. Search that as well.

But thanks for the English lesson.....

And here's one for you (http://www.answers.com/bull****)

[superman]

It sounds like he fell down the shelter stairs as some one sniggles and said "the devil made me do it."

[Heater]

Oh really? That is EXACTLY what they were.

A straw man argument (http://www.answers.com/topic/argument-form) is an informal fallacy (http://www.answers.com/topic/informal-fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute (http://www.answers.com/topic/objection-argument), then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical (http://www.answers.com/topic/rhetoric) technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

See the bold print? That is exacly what you did.

You MADE UP dialogue and presented it in a way that others would think you were quoting the text of another poster to enhance and further your weak argurments. Your credibility is zilch.

Go back under your rock or show me where anyone in this thread said "leaving a fiction novel would be acceptable" or that "hikers can leave mounds of trash, both cans and paper, behind at a campsite, and that's acceptable". I challenge you to do so or admit that you were setting up a strawman.

Of course, you will do neither because you lack the credibility. ;)


First, there are multiple threads on what to take hiking. Some suggested taking novels, and when finished, leave them for someone else to read. Search it yourself.

Second, I hear that leaving the Bible is equivalent to leaving trash, and yet I see mounds of trash left at shelters. I even read posts of people burning their trash so as not to have to hike it out, which leaves even more of a mess than just leaving the trash whole and unburnt. Search that as well.

But thanks for the English lesson.....


What a surprise that the incredibly non-credible monkeyboy would not be able to step up to the challenge.

Show me, in this debate, where the opponents stated the things that you attributed to them. You cannot because they don't exist. You have no credibility.

[Monkeyboy]

Better yet....why don't you start a thread that states "Don't Leave your Trash at the Campsite and Take it to Town".

Question for you all, since you are all higher and mightier.....

Which is more offensive....the Bible left at the shelter or the mounds of trash left at a shelter? Which damages the area more? Which is more visually offensive?

So, whatever....have a good life and peace out.

[Monkeyboy]

What a surprise that the incredibly non-credible monkeyboy would not be able to step up to the challenge.

Show me, in this debate, where the opponents stated the things that you attributed to them. You cannot because they don't exist. You have no credibility.


Like I said....search it yourself. Since you are such an English teacher, you should be able to read for yourself. BTW, never said this thread, but since you are such an expert on diction and vocabulary, you have already noticed that I said in multiple threads.

Live long and prosper...

[Heater]

Better yet....why don't you start a thread that states "Don't Leave your Trash at the Campsite and Take it to Town".

Question for you all, since you are all higher and mightier.....

Which is more offensive....the Bible left at the shelter or the mounds of trash left at a shelter? Which damages the area more? Which is more visually offensive?

So, whatever....have a good life and peace out.

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya. LOL! :D

[Monkeyboy]

Great come back from such a literary giant....

[superman]

Great come back from such a literary giant....

Austexs is your best friend and I think he's getting tired of you.

[Heater]

Like I said....search it yourself. Since you are such an English teacher, you should be able to read for yourself.


You are responsible for justifying you own strawman arguments, not me. So, have at it.



BTW, never said this thread,


You did not say outside of this thread. You made it seem that you were quoting the opposition in this debate. Strawman. It was dishonest. Despicable.



but since you are such an expert on diction and vocabulary, you have already noticed that I said in multiple threads.


Several posts later... yeah! :rolleyes:



Live long and prosper...

Nanoo nanoo...

[Monkeyboy]

I believe your interpretation of LNT shows that ethic to be meaningless more than saying literature left in shelters does. LNT is not meant to be an impossible goal because it does not mean to litterally "leave no trace."

Rather, it is a proposed set of ethical rules. At the center of those rules is to limit your impact to zones already highly impacted in the wilds if such exist. The AT itself and most areas along its corridor are already highly impacted. Shelters, particularly, are high impact zones and it is best, according to LNT ethics, to more often than not perform most of your impacting activities around them rather than being diffuse.

Perhaps it is better to not leave a single skin cell or eyelash or even a molecule of your exhaled CO2 in an AT shelter, but I say: since the shelters already attract the most damaging impact to the naturality of the AT-area, simply shrug your shoulders at something as benign as an additional stack of paper and glue sitting in the corner.

To everyone who doesn;t want religious messages left in shelters: why have you not said the same thing about the registers?

(A-Train: my copy of Into the Wild was left by WalkOn who was up front near you at somepoint I think)

Also, please note the bottom of this post, in this very thread, where WalkOn leaves a book and Moon Monster picks it up to read.....

But nope, no one every said that was done....

[Monkeyboy]

You did not say outside of this thread. You made it seem that you were quoting the opposition in this debate. Strawman. It was dishonest. Despicable.

And here are my words.....


First, there are multiple threads on what to take hiking. Some suggested taking novels, and when finished, leave them for someone else to read. Search it yourself.

[Heater]

Great come back from such a literary giant....

Lesson two.

When you are clearly losing, start the ad hominem attacks. GOTCHYA!

An ad hominem argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument), also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): "argument to the person", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_attack) an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument.

Pretty sad, monkeyboy.

[Tha Wookie]

I was just at Whitley Gap shelter in Ga two nights ago and there was a rather fresh bible-filled tupperware. I considered hiking them out. But local DNR was up there and I didn't want to be seen lugging them out. And they looked pretty heavy;)

I thought is was completely inappropriate to leave them there. I am a Christian. Bibles are fine with me. But when you're amid the Great Spirit on the Appalachian Trail, what would you need a book for?

[Chache]

I was just at Whitley Gap shelter in Ga two nights ago and there was a rather fresh bible-filled tupperware. I considered hiking them out. But local DNR was up there and I didn't want to be seen lugging them out. And they looked pretty heavy;)

I thought is was completely inappropriate to leave them there. I am a Christian. Bibles are fine with me. But when you're amid the Great Spirit on the Appalachian Trail, what would you need a book for?
As long as their the ones with that real thin paper leave um. They make the best toilet paper

[Heater]

You did not say outside of this thread. You made it seem that you were quoting the opposition in this debate. Strawman. It was dishonest. Despicable.
And here are my words.....

Quote:
First, there are multiple threads on what to take hiking. Some suggested taking novels, and when finished, leave them for someone else to read. Search it yourself.

Like I said. Waaaaaay after the Strawman Arguments you threw out there.
Just admit to your weak-assed ploy, monkeyboy. Man up!

[Monkeyboy]

Lesson two.

When you are clearly losing, start the ad hominem attacks. GOTCHYA!

An ad hominem argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument), also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): "argument to the person", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_attack) an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument.

Pretty sad, monkeyboy.


Excuse, literary giant, but you were the one on the attack....


Your credibility is zilch.



Go back under your rock or show me where anyone in this thread said "leaving a fiction novel would be acceptable"



Of course, you will do neither because you lack the credibility


What a surprise that the incredibly non-credible monkeyboy would not be able to step up to the challenge.



You have no credibility.

You're absolutely right, Austexs.....pretty sad indeed.

Have a good evening...

[superman]

There's an old druid saying that goes like this. "When romance turns to irksome it's time to stop screwing around, put your pants on and go home." Of course that means to pack out what you pack in. LOL

[saimyoji]

You guys are propagating the negativity, bickering and stupidity that Dixie recently tried so hard to make clear was not welcome here at WB. Continue your bickering elsewhere but knock it off here.

Thanking your cooperation. :sun

[Heater]

Show me where anyone in this thread (BEFORE you put up the strawmen) said "leaving a fiction novel would be acceptable" or that "hikers can leave mounds of trash, both cans and paper, behind at a campsite, and that's acceptable". I challenge you to do so or admit that you were setting up a strawman.

Of course, you will do neither because you lack the credibility.

Still waiting, monkeyboy.

[Heater]

Excuse, literary giant, but you were the one on the attack....











You're absolutely right, Austexs.....pretty sad indeed.

Have a good evening...

Noy attacks, monkeyboy, Simple facts. And yes, pretty sad indeed.

G'night. XOXOXO

:sun

[Heater]

You guys are propagating the negativity, bickering and stupidity that Dixie recently tried so hard to make clear was not welcome here at WB. Continue your bickering elsewhere but knock it off here.

Thanking your cooperation. :sun

I was just trying to get him to justify his "strawman" (negative, pot stirring) argument that he was denying. I was very careful not call him any names. Though he resorted to namecalling as he gas done earlier in the very day with another poster, I did nothing wrong.

Thanking you for understanding and minding your own buisness. :sun

[superman]

LMAO
good night:)

[JAK]

Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde, 1374:

"Lat nat this wrechched wo thyn herte gnawe, But manly set the world on sexe and seuene."
At Sixes and Sevens:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_sixes_and_sevens

The game of dice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazard_%28game%29

The biblical reference: Job 5:19 KJV
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Job/Job005.html#top
"He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee."

The Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_and_Seventh_Books_of_Moses

Magic Books and Folklore
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/magicbook.html

From Chemnitz, Germany
There is no longer any magic or witchcraft. That is because the sixth and the seventh books of Moses can no longer be used. Witchcraft, magic, and incantations were all exactly described and recorded there. These two books are now secured at Wittenberg. They can still be seen as curiosities, but can no longer be used.

From Rügen, Germany

Many years ago there lived in Trent an old master tailor whose wife had inherited an unusual book from her mother. They say she had the sixth and the seventh books of Moses. Whenever the woman read in the book, deer, wolves, hares, and other animals would come to her, lie down at her feet, and play with her children. All these animals would disappear as soon as the book was closed. One day while the woman was reading the book, she was surprised by her husband. He grabbed the book and threw it into the stove. But behold! The fire went out, and the book remained undamaged. The tailor did not want to have this book in his house any longer, so, acting on the advice of some old people, he had a boy who was born on a Sunday during the sermon throw the book into the stove. That worked, for the book was immediately consumed by the flames.

The Black BookAnother Tale from Rügen, Germany
In Sabitz near Bergen there formerly lived a number of peasants who, it was said, possessed a black book. With its help they were able to acquire substantial wealth, and if they did anything bad to a neighbor, they always went unpunished. Whoever wanted to use the black book had to read the text forwards and backwards. The devil gained control of anyone who failed to read it backwards. It was no longer known where the book came from. The oldest people knew only that they had come into its possession through an inheritance. Sometimes the book caused its owners much grief, so finally they tried to dispose of it. For a long time these attempts were to no avail, until they sought the advise of a pastor. He freed them from the book by nailing shut the drawer in which it was being stored.

Of Shelters, Hermits, and Black Madonnas:
http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/switzerland/einsiedeln.html

"In the German language the word einsiedler means hermit, and Switzerland's greatest pilgrimage shrine, the abbey of Einsiedeln, derives its name from being the 'place of the hermits'. While legends indicate the site was sacred in pre-Christian times, its historical fame began in the early 9th century."

"Again and again in the stories of the Black Virgin, a statue is found in a forest or a bush, or discovered when ploughing animals refuse to pass a certain spot. The statue is taken to the parish church, only to return miraculously by night to her own place, where a chapel is then built in her honor. Almost invariably her cult is associated with natural phenomena, especially healing waters or striking geographical features. The Romans had taken over and adapted many of the sacred sites of the Celtic world, which the Christians were later, in their turn, to sanctify, but the spirit of the place remains Celtic, and still whispers something of its origins through the cult associated with it."

"Again and again in the stories of the Black Virgin, a statue is found in a forest or a bush, or discovered when ploughing animals refuse to pass a certain spot. The statue is taken to the parish church, only to return miraculously by night to her own place, where a chapel is then built in her honor. Almost invariably her cult is associated with natural phenomena, especially healing waters or striking geographical features. The Romans had taken over and adapted many of the sacred sites of the Celtic world, which the Christians were later, in their turn, to sanctify, but the spirit of the place remains Celtic, and still whispers something of its origins through the cult associated with it."

"The return of the Black Virgin to the forefront of collective consciousness has coincided with the profound psychological need to reconcile sexuality and religion."

Returning at last to Bob Dylan's tune:
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/shelter.html

Shelter from the Storm
- Bob Dylan

'Twas in another lifetime, one of toil and blood
When blackness was a virtue and the road was full of mud
I came in from the wilderness, a creature void of form.
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

And if I pass this way again, you can rest assured
I'll always do my best for her, on that I give my word
In a world of steel-eyed death, and men who are fighting to be warm.
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

Not a word was spoke between us, there was little risk involved
Everything up to that point had been left unresolved.
Try imagining a place where it's always safe and warm.
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

I was burned out from exhaustion, buried in the hail,
Poisoned in the bushes an' blown out on the trail,
Hunted like a crocodile, ravaged in the corn.
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

Suddenly I turned around and she was standin' there
With silver bracelets on her wrists and flowers in her hair.
She walked up to me so gracefully and took my crown of thorns.
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

Now there's a wall between us, somethin' there's been lost
I took too much for granted, got my signals crossed.
Just to think that it all began on a long-forgotten morn.
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

Well, the deputy walks on hard nails and the preacher rides a mount
But nothing really matters much, it's doom alone that counts
And the one-eyed undertaker, he blows a futile horn.
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

I've heard newborn babies wailin' like a mournin' dove
And old men with broken teeth stranded without love.
Do I understand your question, man, is it hopeless and forlorn?
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

In a little hilltop village, they gambled for my clothes
I bargained for salvation an' they gave me a lethal dose.
I offered up my innocence and got repaid with scorn.
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

Well, I'm livin' in a foreign country but I'm bound to cross the line
Beauty walks a razor's edge, someday I'll make it mine.
If I could only turn back the clock to when God and her were born.
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHhFIsS1zJY&mode=related&search=

[JAK]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/moses7/m772.htm

AI, AI, AI--Arise, Thou eternal Angel!
This must be repeated three times in a loud voice, and the horn must also be blown three times, for he is an angel of the sanctuary.

http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritual/upanishads/katha_upanishad.php

Om. Peace! Peace! Peace!
14 Arise! Awake! Approach the great and learn. Like the sharp edge of a razor is that path, so the wise say—hard to tread and difficult to cross.

[JAK]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sainte-Marie_among_the_Hurons
Sainte-Marie among the Hurons
"Arriving in November 1639, they erected a makeshift shelter out of cypress pillars and a birch bark roof, using clay to build in the interior walls."
"The Jesuits preached the Christian Gospel to the Huron, often adapting the story to more familiar local customs. One of the most famous examples of this was the 'Huron Carol'."
"The establishment of the mission led to division amongst the Wendat, with conflict between those who converted to Christianity and those who maintained their traditional beliefs. Disease, an unintended result of first contact between the Jesuits and the Wendat, served to further the gap between the traditional Wendat and the missionaries. Also during this time, the rivalry between the Wendat and Iroquois began to reignite, and the Wendat were weakened by their internal divisions and their losses from the conflict."
"On June 16, 1649 the missionaries chose to burn the mission rather than risk seeing it desecrated or permanently overrun by Iroquois in further attacks."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyandot
"In 1999, representatives the far-flung Wyandot bands of Quebec, Kansas, Oklahoma and Michigan gathered at their historic homeland in Midland, Ontario, and formally re-established the Wendat Confederacy."

http://www.wyandot.org/instruct.html
Brebeuf's Instructions to the Missionaries
In 1637, Father Jean de Brebeuf drew up a list of instructions for Jesuit missionaries destined to work among the Huron. These reflect his own experience and a genuine sensitivity toward our people.
1. You must love these Hurons, ransomed by the blood of the Son of God, as brothers.
2. You must never keep the Indians waiting at the time of embarking.
3. Carry a tinder-box or a piece of burning-glass, or both, to make fire for them during the day for smoking, and in the evening when it is necessary to camp; these little services win their hearts.
4. Try to eat the little food they offer you, and eat all you can, for you may not eat again for hours.
5. Eat as soon as day breaks, for Indians when on the road, eat only at the rising and the setting of the sun.
6. Be prompt in embarking and disembarking and do not carry any water or sand into the canoe.
7. Be the least troublesome to the Indians.
8. Do not ask many questions; silence is golden.
9. Bear with their imperfections, and you must try always to appear cheerful.
10. Carry with you a half-gross of awls, two or three dozen little folding knives (jambettes), and some plain and fancy beads with which to buy fish or other commodities from the nations you meet, in order to feast you Indian companions, and be sure to tell them from the outset that here is something with which to buy fish.
11. Always carry something during the portages.
12. Do not be ceremonious with the Indians.
13. Do not begin to paddle unless you intend always to paddle.
14. The Indians will keep later that opinion of you which they have formed during the trip.
15. Always show any other Indians you meet on the way a cheerful face and show that you readily accept the fatigues of the journey.

A Huron Carol
http://www.rockies.net/~spirit/charlene/huroncarol1.html
Ies8s Ahatonnia (ee-sus a-ha-ton-nyah= Jesus, he is born)
- Saint Jean de Brebeuf, a Jesuit missionary to the Hurons

Estennia,on de tson8e Ies8s ahatonnia
eh-sten-nyah-yon deh tson-weh ee-sus a-ha-ton-nyah
Onn'a8ate8a d'oki n'on,8andask8aentak
on-nah-wah-teh-wah do-kee non-ywah-ndah-skwa-en-tak
Ennonchien sk8atrihotat n'on,8andi,onrachatha
en-non-shyen skwah-tree-hotat non-ywa-ndee-yon-rah-shah-thah

Have courage, you who are humans, Jesus, he is born

Behold, the spirit who had us as prisoners has fledDo not listen to it, as it corrupts our minds

Iesus ahatonnia
A,oki onkinnhache eronhia,eronnon
ayo-kee on-kee-nhah-sheh eh-ron-hya-yeh-ron-non
iontonk ontatiande ndio sen tsatonnharonnion
yon-tonk on-tah-tya-ndeh ndyo sen tsah-ton-nha-ron-nyon
8arie onna8ak8eton ndio sen tsatonnharonnion
wah-ree on-nah-wah-kweh-ton ndyo sen tsah ton-nha-ron-nyon


They are spirits, coming with a message for us, the sky people they are coming to say, "Rejoice" (ie., be on top of life)
"Marie, she has just given birth. Rejoice."

Ies8s ahatonnia
Achink ontahonrask8a d'hatirih8annens
a-shien-k on-tah-hon-rah-skwah dhah-tee-ree-hwan-nens
Tichion ha,onniondetha onh8a achia ahatren
tee-shyon ha-yon-nyon-deh-tha on-hwah a-shya ah-hah-tren
Ondaiete hahahak8a tichion ha,onniondetha
on-dee teh-hah-hah-hah-kwah tee-shyon ha-yon-nyon-deh-tha


Three have left for such a place, those who are elders A star that has just appeared over the horizon leads them there
He will seize the path, he who leads them there

Ies8s ahatonnia
Tho ichien stahation tethotondi Ies8s
thoh ee-shyen stah-hah-tyon teh-tho-ton-ndee ee-sus
ahoatatende tichion stan chi teha8ennion
ah-ho-a-tah-ten-nde tyee-shyon stan shee teh-hah-wen-nyon
Aha,onatorenten iatonk atsion sken
a-hah-yon-ah-to-ren-ten yah-tonk ah-tsyon sken


As they arrived there, where he was born, Jesus the star was at the point of stopping, he was not far past it

Having found someone for them, he says, "Come here"
Ies8s ahatonnia
Onne ontahation chiahona,en Ies8s
on-nen on-tah-hah-tyon shyah-hon-ah-yen ee-sus
Ahatichiennonniannon kahachia handia,on
ah-hah-tee-shyen-non-nyan-non kah-hah-shyah hah-ndyah-yon
Te honannonronk8annnion ihontonk oerisen
teh-hon-an-non-ron-kwan-nyon ee-hon-tonk o-eh-ree-sen


Behold, they have arrived there and have seen Jesus
They praised (made a name) many times, saying "Hurray, he is good in nature"
They greeted him with reverence (i.e., greased his scalp many times), saying "Hurray"
Iesus ahatonnia
Te hek8atatennonten ahek8achiendaen
teh-heh-kwah-tah-ten-non-ten ah-heh-kwah-shyen-ndah-en
Te hek8annonronk8annion de son,8entenrande
teh-heh-kwan-non-ron-kwan-nyon deh son-ywen-ten-ran-ndeh
8to,eti sk8annonh8e ichierhe akennonhonstha u-to-yeh-tee
skwan-non-hweh ee-shyeh-rheh ah-keh-non-hon-sthah


"We will give to him praise for his name"
"Let us show reverence for him as he comes to be compassionate to us."
"It is providential that you love us and wish, "I should adopt them." Ies8s ahatonnia

[JAK]

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."
- Ecclesiates 1:9 (KJV)

[aaroniguana]

Maybe its because the majority of Americans are not Satanic.....or pagan Gaelic Druids.....

Celtic. Get it right :)

Glad to see that Floridians still believe in mob rule.

[Jaybird]

Yo JAK!


if i saw your WB posts in a shelter....i'd leave them or trash them..

...you have the LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONGEST posts, ever!

kinda like a HARRY POTTER book....needs a bit o' editing.:D

[Monkeyboy]

Though he resorted to namecalling as he gas done earlier in the very day with another poster, I did nothing wrong.




Show me where I called someone a name (other than you) yesterday.

You won't find it.....I've already looked.

Have a good life

[Monkeyboy]

This subject should also be moved to the "Sensitive Trail Subjects" or "Politics" section, as it is clearly designed to cause debate.
Just MHO

[JAK]

Yo JAK!


if i saw your WB posts in a shelter....i'd leave them or trash them..

...you have the LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONGEST posts, ever!

kinda like a HARRY POTTER book....needs a bit o' editing.:D Funny you should say that. When I got back into hiking year back, in January, I brought the first Harry Potter book with me. Never finished it. Things got rather busy.

How do I edit my posts on this forum?

[Monkeyboy]

Funny you should say that. When I got back into hiking year back, in January, I brought the first Harry Potter book with me. Never finished it. Things got rather busy.

How do I edit my posts on this forum?

You have to be a donating member.

[JAK]

Aha. Thanks.
Well I guess in that spirit I shouldn't make them so long to begin with.

It would be a nice feature if my posts could evaporate after a time.
Do any of the fonts use biodegradable bytes? Not a bad feature eh.

[JAK]

Perhaps this might make a good biodegradable font?

(Low Impact and Green) LOL.

[JAK]

This one for winter. Leave no trace.

[Brrrb Oregon]

Better yet....why don't you start a thread that states "Don't Leave your Trash at the Campsite and Take it to Town".

Question for you all, since you are all higher and mightier.....

Which is more offensive....the Bible left at the shelter or the mounds of trash left at a shelter? Which damages the area more? Which is more visually offensive?

So, whatever....have a good life and peace out.

Are you aquainted with the maxim "don't cast your pearls before swine"? Not to equate non-believers with swine, but the audience is speaking rather loudly about the likely reception your intended largess is going to get. Do not be too stubborn to listen to what they have to say, just because you don't like what you hear.

Speaking as a Christian, I would suggest very strongly that you not leave a copy of the Scriptures in a place where it is going to be taken for trash (or, God forbid, used as toilet paper). It does no one any favors. At the very least, it presumes upon the poor person left packing it out.

[Heater]

Show me where I called someone a name (other than you) yesterday.

You won't find it.....I've already looked.

Have a good life

Removed

Look. I am not going to argue with you today, monkeyboy. I have other, better things to do and there are plenty of others around here to give you your fix.

[Brrrb Oregon]

This subject should also be moved to the "Sensitive Trail Subjects" or "Politics" section, as it is clearly designed to cause debate.
Just MHO

I don't think so. Look at the original post. It is not anti-Bible and does not take a stand on whether religion or politics are worthwhile, but simply suggests that both political and religious messages are best delivered in person ("it is your right to say what you please").

I don't see how it is in any way provocative to point out that messages left in paper form attract mice. It is a practical consideration that is worth bringing to the attention of those who are well-meaning but unaware of the unintended results of their actions.


The trail is not a place to convert people! all through VA, Hercules (class of '99) has been leaving religious books in shelters. please inform people that this is not a storage shed, you pack it in you pack it out! this stuff becomes mouse fodder and then people complain about the mice. this goes for political messages too! it is your right to say what you please, but don't try to bring it out to the trail and nail it to a shelter.

thanks,

magic
ga>me'03
ga>me'04

[Monkeyboy]

Are you aquainted with the maxim "don't cast your pearls before swine"? Not to equate non-believers with swine, but the audience is speaking rather loudly about the likely reception your intended largess is going to get. Do not be too stubborn to listen to what they have to say, just because you don't like what you hear.

Speaking as a Christian, I would suggest very strongly that you not leave a copy of the Scriptures in a place where it is going to be taken for trash (or, God forbid, used as toilet paper). It does no one any favors. At the very least, it presumes upon the poor person left packing it out.

I never said that I left Bibles in the shelters, but I get your point.

Problem is, which was shown in this very thread, is that it is stated the Bible is mouse fodder, but other books are accepted. Someone in this very thread said he picked up a book to read left by another.

So as to being to stubborn to listen, that also means being too stubborn to listen and observe yourselves.

But point taken...

[Brrrb Oregon]

I never said that I left Bibles in the shelters, but I get your point.

Problem is, which was shown in this very thread, is that it is stated the Bible is mouse fodder, but other books are accepted. Someone in this very thread said he picked up a book to read left by another.

So as to being to stubborn to listen, that also means being too stubborn to listen and observe yourselves.

But point taken...

And you've made yours, too. You don't know how many have read, agreed, and not responded in writing. Still, if you are the only one to make any profit from the conversation....well, that's better than the other way around, right? ;)

[dperry]

How is leaving a bible at a shelter considered "cramming it down your throat"?


I didn't say that just leaving a Bible at a shelter was "cramming it down your throat." The conversation had moved on to more aggressive means of evangelization at that point.

However, I wouldn't leave a Bible in a shelter (or any of the other books my church considers holy) because of the trash and vermin problems it can cause.

And yes, some people are hypocritical on this issue. Doesn't give us an excuse to go out and transgress.


Thank you dperry. I wish all Christians held your ethic. Some make it hard to be a heathen these days but I suppose that's all part of the deal.Forcing someone to worship in a particular way is bad for both the coercer and the coercee (since being forced to accept beliefs on the outside makes it less likely that one will accept them deep down, which is where it really matters.)

That having been said, I have no objection to sharing one's faith per se--in fact, I think it's a duty, at least for Christians. One should, however, know when to stop. This is not only an issue for the non-religious--I have no interest in becoming a Mormon or a Hare Krishna-ite, but I don't care if they want to try to talk to me about it, as long as when the time comes that I tell them to politely go away, they do just that--politely.


Would you be OK sleeping with a Pentacle over your bed?Actually, I probably wouldn't have that much problem with it, as long as men wearing black robes didn't come into my room late at night and start sacrificing goats--or me, for that matter. :eek:

But then, this is not a totally equivalent comparison, since in all the hotels I've ever been in that had Bibles, they're either tucked away in a drawer somewhere, or at worst lying on the end table where they're pretty inconspicuous.

Now, if you go to a hotel and find a huge bloody crucifix over the bed--then I completely understand if you're offended. Heck, I'd be offended.


What kind of fuzzy thinking nut bag is going to believe that Mary was a virgin? Well, this fuzzy thinking nut bag, for one. At least up to the point where she had Jesus. After that point--that's a whole other argument. :D

[JAK]

What if the shelter itself is provided and maintained by a local church?

I see both shelters in a historical context. For years travellers have found shelter in places that are meant for other things, like chapels, hermitages, barns, mangers. Beggars can't be choosers. It is true that the bible has often had a rather adversarial relationship with nature, but that is really part of the nature of nature, and the nature of man. Nature and humanity are full of such conflicting ideologies. Are we part of nature, or apart from it? Are shelters really part of the Appalachian trail, or apart from it. What of the trails themselves? Are they really part of nature, or like ourselves, are they just passing through?

[Appalachian Tater]

What if the shelter itself is provided and maintained by a local church?

I see both shelters in a historical context. For years travellers have found shelter in places that are meant for other things, like chapels, hermitages, barns, mangers. Beggars can't be choosers. It is true that the bible has often had a rather adversarial relationship with nature, but that is really part of the nature of nature, and the nature of man. Nature and humanity are full of such conflicting ideologies. Are we part of nature, or apart from it? Are shelters really part of the Appalachian trail, or apart from it. What of the trails themselves? Are they really part of nature, or like ourselves, are they just passing through?

Don't leave anything in or at shelters or anywhere along the trail unless you're a maintainer. In this context, a bible is garbage that has to be burned or packed out.

[Tha Wookie]

Don't leave anything in or at shelters or anywhere along the trail unless you're a maintainer. In this context, a bible is garbage that has to be burned or packed out.

Does the same go for American flags?

[Appalachian Tater]

Does the same go for American flags?

Yes.


123456

[RockyBob]

This thread gives crediblility to the "Shelters Suck" argument.

[Appalachian Tater]

This thread gives crediblility to the "Shelters Suck" argument.

Yes.


123456

[JAK]

Don't leave anything in or at shelters or anywhere along the trail unless you're a maintainer. In this context, a bible is garbage that has to be burned or packed out.Why did you quote my post before making this post? The two seem unrelated. My post has to do with how you perceive the world around you. Your post seems to be telling me what to do. Perhaps I should ignore it, like I most likely would with the shelters themselves and anyone and anything in it, but I'm curious. Why did you quote my post?

[JAK]

Don't leave anything in or at shelters or anywhere along the trail unless you're a maintainer. In this context, a bible is garbage that has to be burned or packed out.Don't beat dogs. Don't drown kittens. Don't yell fire in a theatre.

[Rain Man]

What if the shelter itself is provided and maintained by a local church?

Then let's hope it's a true church, which would require that it be altruistic rather than demanding or even expecting a quid pro quo for its charity. It can't have it both ways.

Rain:sunMan

.

[Jaybird]

Then let's hope it's a true church, which would require that it be altruistic rather than demanding or even expecting a quid pro quo for its charity. It can't have it both ways.Rain:sunMan.




Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Rain Man....always the quote that sums it all up!

[Chaplain]

This July I hiked from Amicolola Lodge to Unicore Gap. I found only one "religious message" in a shelter at Hawk Mtg Shelter. However, I did also find numerous plastic baps, plastic tarps, one two-person north face tent in its stuff bag, 6 sleeping pads, AT Literature, food, two bottles, and the list could go on. Remarkable for a 57 mile hike (I think its 57 miles). So, religious literature wasen't well represented on this short stretch. Its got a good record so far. But I would include it in the list of "garbage" that shold not be left there. I think that the person who left that tent could have held onto it until they hit the road. Shame, shame. I had garbage and at times I was tempted to leave it somewhere but I packed it all out. This makes me think of all the folk who DO pack it out, wow! It would be pretty bad if we did not. Way to go fellow hikers!!! -SunnyWalker

[HapKiDo]

Knee jerk reaction, perhaps, to complain about something you can just ignore? Why does it bother you? If it bothers you, there's a reason and if there's a reason that you haven't come to terms with, it will continue to bother you.

Are you a purist who hikes every white blaze, even going the opposite direction from a shelter so that you pick up the Trail where you left it when you decided to hike the shelter blue blaze?

How do you feel about Dogs on the Trail or Cellphones on the Trail or Sex on the Trail or Profanity in Shelter Journals or Carving on Shelter Picnic Tables or on Shelters or Smoking in a Shelter? There are a plethora of things that you can't control that will drive you crazy if you try to control them.

I would think your dislike of what doesn't bother others is a control issue. If you're out on the Trail to enjoy the ambiance of the Trail, then Trail Magic in various forms is part of your experience. Embrace it.

The Trail Experience may include the dog poo you have to scoop out of the Trail (could be coyote scat), the cigarette smoker who pollutes the air in the Shelter, the person who uses his cellphone in front of other hikers, and the person who leaves religious pamphlets. Ignore them. Do NOT destroy them. Why, because "what goes around, comes around." Very bad Karma. It's better to ignore them or move them to the opposite corner of the shelter, but do not destroy something that another person may be desperate for.

Think of the guilt you'd live with if you learned that a very depressed person went to a Shelter planning to kill himself unless he found some "sign" at the Shelter. And YOU removed or destroyed the religious pamphlets at that very Shelter which could have changed the course of history for that person.

And if you say "I wouldn't feel guilty" then, dear child, may God have mercy on your soul.

The only person you have control over is yourself. Control yourself so that you come into balance between Nature and Nature's Creator. Examine your own life, and allow others to do the same with their lives.

Hard Truth? :-? BTW, Martial Arts is a good method to learn self-control.
HapKiDo

[HapKiDo]

Don't leave anything in or at shelters or anywhere along the trail unless you're a maintainer. In this context, a bible is garbage that has to be burned or packed out.

So you'd burn a Koran? Or toss it down the privy? Do you call a Koran garbage?

Bad Bad Karma to destroy a Bible or a Religious Tract or Pamphlet, even if YOUR religion or lack thereof doesn't agree with them.

As a Catholic, it pains me to see the dessicated KJV Bible. But I would never destroy or carry one out of a Shelter. If the Maintainer decides to, it's his karma which will be affected.

EVEN if it were a Koran, I'd leave it be, just as I leave incomplete KJV Bibles alone.

HapKiDo
http://www.drbo.org for the complete Bible :-?

[Lone Wolf]

Knee jerk reaction, perhaps, to complain about something you can just ignore? Why does it bother you? If it bothers you, there's a reason and if there's a reason that you haven't come to terms with, it will continue to bother you.

Are you a purist who hikes every white blaze, even going the opposite direction from a shelter so that you pick up the Trail where you left it when you decided to hike the shelter blue blaze?

How do you feel about Dogs on the Trail or Cellphones on the Trail or Sex on the Trail or Profanity in Shelter Journals or Carving on Shelter Picnic Tables or on Shelters or Smoking in a Shelter? There are a plethora of things that you can't control that will drive you crazy if you try to control them.

I would think your dislike of what doesn't bother others is a control issue. If you're out on the Trail to enjoy the ambiance of the Trail, then Trail Magic in various forms is part of your experience. Embrace it.

The Trail Experience may include the dog poo you have to scoop out of the Trail (could be coyote scat), the cigarette smoker who pollutes the air in the Shelter, the person who uses his cellphone in front of other hikers, and the person who leaves religious pamphlets. Ignore them. Do NOT destroy them. Why, because "what goes around, comes around." Very bad Karma. It's better to ignore them or move them to the opposite corner of the shelter, but do not destroy something that another person may be desperate for.

Think of the guilt you'd live with if you learned that a very depressed person went to a Shelter planning to kill himself unless he found some "sign" at the Shelter. And YOU removed or destroyed the religious pamphlets at that very Shelter which could have changed the course of history for that person.

And if you say "I wouldn't feel guilty" then, dear child, may God have mercy on your soul.

The only person you have control over is yourself. Control yourself so that you come into balance between Nature and Nature's Creator. Examine your own life, and allow others to do the same with their lives.

Hard Truth? :-? BTW, Martial Arts is a good method to learn self-control.
HapKiDo

such an extremely petty non-issue. nice post

[The Old Fhart]

HapKiDo-"Think of the guilt you'd live with if you learned that a very depressed person went to a Shelter planning to kill himself unless he found some "sign" at the Shelter. And YOU removed or destroyed the religious pamphlets at that very Shelter which could have changed the course of history for that person."
That is the most ridiculous, illogical, and far-reaching reasoning I have ever heard for leaving religious material in a shelter! If you were to truly believe that line of reasoning then you’d be covering every square inch of the planet with religious material, just in case a ‘very depressed person’ ‘planning to kill himself’ happened to walk by. Do you feel guilty for all those poor souls who may have killed themselves because you have not left religious materials where ever you go??

If you had read this thread you'd see that the reasons not to leave any material in a shelter have nothing to do with religion. First and foremost, it isn't your shelter and there are rules (such as Leave No Trace) that forbid leaving anything you want at a shelter.

You seem to be bothered that others want to be responsible hikers and not mess up shelters. If it bothers you, there's a reason and if there's a reason that you haven't come to terms with, it will continue to bother you. :rolleyes:

[Appalachian Tater]

Think of the guilt you'd live with if you learned that a very depressed person went to a Shelter planning to kill himself unless he found some "sign" at the Shelter. And YOU removed or destroyed the religious pamphlets at that very Shelter which could have changed the course of history for that person.


Well, then, the corpse would become garbage and have to be burned or hauled out. Don't leave anything in a shelter.

I always love it when some ******* ressurects this thread.

[Lone Wolf]

i left a book in a shelter in vermont recently

[Appalachian Tater]

i left a book in a shelter in vermont recently

I'm surprised lightening didn't strike the shelter and destroy it as you approached. Have you recovered from being under the roof yet? Or did you get someone else to actually put the book in there?

Shelters suck!
:banana

[Lone Wolf]

I'm surprised lightening didn't strike the shelter and destroy it as you approached. Have you recovered from being under the roof yet? Or did you get someone else to actually put the book in there?

Shelters suck!
:banana

i didn't stay in the shelter. by the way just about every shelter in vermont was dirty and strewn with junk

[JAK]

I would try not to destroy any book, especially a religious book. I guess I do believe in karma. I think it is more superstition than faith on my part, but that might have been another thread. Not sure. But there must be times when a religious book does finally need to be disposed of, just as I have eventually disposed of other books. This has gotten me curious. Is there a correct procedure for disposing of religious books, as opposed to any other old book, which may or may not have meant something special to you or someone else?

[Appalachian Tater]

I would try not to destroy any book, especially a religious book. I guess I do believe in karma. I think it is more superstition than faith on my part, but that might have been another thread. Not sure. But there must be times when a religious book does finally need to be disposed of, just as I have eventually disposed of other books. This has gotten me curious. Is there a correct procedure for disposing of religious books, as opposed to any other old book, which may or may not have meant something special to you or someone else?

I don't like burning books, either. Many of those "books" were religious tracts by that company that sells all the illustrated burn-in-hell pamphlets. You could always choose to carry them into town, but then you'd have to put them in the garbage. I would think burning them is more respectful, like burning the flag when it's worn out. Remember, in this context, they're garbage. Shelter's not a church library.



L. Wolf, I don't know, I only stayed in a couple of shelters before Maine. I don't remember any in Vermont. I'm sure with the double traffic of the Long Trail hikers they're full of junk. Certainly there were some very odd things in shelters in Maine. Last year it seemed like somebody took a case of tea light candles and a case of cans of Russian fish of unknown variety and distributed them in all the shelters. The tea light candles were also at strategic places on the trail itself. Someone had also distributed a bunch of rubber bands in different colors. Odd.

[The Old Fhart]

Lone Wolf-"by the way just about every shelter in vermont was dirty and strewn with junk"Was that before or after you visited?;) Just kidding. But from what you're saying, that is all the more reason not to leave anything at a shelter that doesn't belong there.

When I did the Long Trail, one of the places I stayed was at Skyline Lodge, which is a beautiful spot above the pond. Two other people stayed there that night, a writer, and the ranger that designed and built the lodge in 1987. The entire lodge is built out of cedar and should last forever. It was a nice dry clean place to stay and there was good company as well.

________________
some shelters suck;)

[The Weasel]

I think we need to contact the Gideons, the LDS Church, and similar representatives of every major denominaiont (and, for that matter, the minor ones, too), to insure that every shelter on the AT has a complete library of basic religious books for depressed and suicidal hikers, which, at varying times, probably includes every single thru. Done properly (for instance, having the KJV is just not acceptable if it's the only version; we need all 'accepted' versions of the Bible, since it (as differently translated in each case) is the literal Word of God), as well as in multiple languages (Spanish, French, and so on, as well as something the British will understand).

Once this probject is finished, most shelters will simply be reading racks, filled with books, thereby accomplishing Wolf's goal of eliminating shelters as a place to sleep. The books will last, however, since absent hikers sleeping there, the mice will rapidly disperse, and the AT will gladly maintain the shelters with the major contributions that each religion will spontaneously provide.

And there won't be any more dead bodies to burn.

The Weasel

[Dances with Mice]

... And there won't be any more dead bodies to burn. What a stupid idea! You should never burn dead bodies. Open fires are prohibited now in many areas. And the maintainer still has to sift through the fire ring and dispose of the tooth fillings, artificial hip joints, and pacemaker parts.

Hikers eat their dead.

[The Weasel]

What a stupid idea! You should never burn dead bodies. Open fires are prohibited now in many areas. And the maintainer still has to sift through the fire ring and dispose of the tooth fillings, artificial hip joints, and pacemaker parts.

Hikers eat their dead.

When I burn bodies, I am acting as a Duly Authorized Temporary Hindu. I then scatter the remaiing ashes in the Ganges, or the nearest water sources, which ever is closer. Hip joints, toothfillings, and pacemaker parts are offered to the Water God as well since they will dissolve over the course of geologic time.

Praise Vishnu.

The Weasel

PS: Make sure that appropriate texts for different Hindu traditions are included. If the shelters are not sufficient in size for this, please remove the books of other religions. But gently and kindly do so, please?

[Rain Man]

When I burn bodies, I am acting as a Duly Authorized Temporary Hindu. ...

OUCH! You wouldn't be intentionally and gratuitously insulting a world religion, would you?

Rain:sunMan

.

[The Weasel]

OUCH! You wouldn't be intentionally and gratuitously insulting a world religion, would you?

Rain:sunMan

.

My friend, I have enough knowledge of some of the texts to love it much myself. And no, I'm not insulting it; to the extent that it's a religion - i.e., a belief in specific gods being required to be Hindu - and there are many who agree that it's not, any more than Confucianism - many of its adherents have the same ability to engage in humor as do many other religions.

The Weasel

[Gray Blazer]

I carry my book of Mormon with me. That book has actually saved my life. One night I was freezing and could not get a fire started even with all my BSA training. I used some of the blank pages from the back of the book and they burned beautifully thereby starting the fire. I hope you don't think of me as sacreligeous (maybe a little irreverent). I'm actually an oxy-mormon.

[Username75]

Do I still need to carry batteries?:-?

[The Weasel]

Do I still need to carry batteries?:-?

Only if you can't find your way.

The Weasel

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Being a frisbytarian, I will be leaving blaze orange frisbees in all shelters. The Hindus may burn all frisbees which get stuck on roofs and cannot be gotten down and offer them to the water god.

[4D's]

Being a frisbytarian, I will be leaving blaze orange frisbees in all shelters. .....


I can not believe that you would allow a frisbee to be "burned as an offering"

Signed --- Holyerthanthouartisian :-? :-? :-? :cool:

[The Weasel]

Being a frisbytarian, I will be leaving blaze orange frisbees in all shelters. The Hindus may burn all frisbees which get stuck on roofs and cannot be gotten down and offer them to the water god.

Frisbies will only be burned when dead or if they remain from the burning of a body.

The Weasel

[Lone Wolf]

just burn all the shelters for crissakes!

[RockyBob]

When I burn bodies, I am acting as a Duly Authorized Temporary Hindu. I then scatter the remaiing ashes in the Ganges, or the nearest water sources, which ever is closer. Hip joints, toothfillings, and pacemaker parts are offered to the Water God as well since they will dissolve over the course of geologic time.

Praise Vishnu.

The Weasel

PS: Make sure that appropriate texts for different Hindu traditions are included. If the shelters are not sufficient in size for this, please remove the books of other religions. But gently and kindly do so, please?

Wow, I guess I really should treat water before I drink it.

[The Weasel]

just burn all the shelters for crissakes!

With all those religious books in them?


Wow, I guess I really should treat water before I drink it.

Been tellin' ya.

The Weasel

[JAK]

I still think this was an interesting thread, because it led me to make a connection between shelters on the AT, similar hermitages and hostels in Europe, Bob Dylans "Shelter from the Storm", and the "Black Madonna".

So if this thread can do that, who knows what value someone else might find in various books or other pieces of junk they might stumble across on the AT. I'm not advocating leaving anything in a shelter or on the AT. I would leave nothing. I'm just saying one man's junk might be another man's shelter.

[weary]

....Bad Bad Karma to destroy a Bible or a Religious Tract or Pamphlet, even if YOUR religion or lack thereof doesn't agree with them.

As a Catholic, it pains me to see the dessicated KJV Bible. But I would never destroy or carry one out of a Shelter. If the Maintainer decides to, it's his karma which will be affected.
:-?
When you volunteer to be a maintainer, among the things that you promise to do is remove things left in shelters that were not left by the maintaining club. That includes books, food, clothing -- and religious articles.

[JAK]

There has to be bad karma leaving stuff in the woods also, and good karma removing stuff from the woods. I think this is part of the eternal conflict and tradeoff in karma between the various religions of the books, statues, idols, artifacts, offerings; and the various religions of the plain old woods.

I'm not sure the woods actually care, but people do seem to care and get pretty worked up about it no matter what you do, so I'll think I'll try and care about the woods first because they've remain silent. Perhaps I'm only pleasing myself.


I went to a garden party to reminisce with my old friends
A chance to share old memories and play our songs again
When I got to the garden party, they all knew my name
No one recognized me, I didn't look the same

CHORUS
But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself

[The Solemates]

Knee jerk reaction, perhaps, to complain about something you can just ignore? Why does it bother you? If it bothers you, there's a reason and if there's a reason that you haven't come to terms with, it will continue to bother you.

HapKiDo

This is the heart of the issue, and the heart of most argumentative postings on WhiteBlaze. People will continue to post because it is just as you say. I choose to ignore most arguments and ramblings on this site, and I believe a logical person should choose to do the same. Thus, this easily weeds out the logically versus illogically minded. Ignoring the illogical posters is easy for me. I like to go to this site to share with others about hiking. Unfortunately, 75% of the users just like to argue and some threads on this site do not have much to do with hiking. But that is no bad reflection on the moderators; I would much rather allow it than censor peoples comments. My two cents...

[Excitable Hiker]

For me, finding a bible in a shelter is the same as a ten year old girl finding a porn magazine (I would have said a ten year old boy finding a Playboy but that would be an inproper analogy) I find it highly offensive.:mad:

After praying, going to church and trying to find Jesus for years without success, I came to my senses and realized how silly it was to read a book two thousand years old that I couldn't understand half of anyway.:sun

And I wasn't even molested by a priest.:eek:

[billyboy]

AS it is written, "....... and ye shall know them by their fruit..." ;)

[sheepdog]

For me, finding a bible in a shelter is the same as a ten year old girl finding a porn magazine (I would have said a ten year old boy finding a Playboy but that would be an inproper analogy) I find it highly offensive.:mad:

After praying, going to church and trying to find Jesus for years without success, I came to my senses and realized how silly it was to read a book two thousand years old that I couldn't understand half of anyway.:sun

And I wasn't even molested by a priest.:eek:

I wonder, how did you get that trail name?


:welcome Welcome to the WB. Hardly anything offensive happens here.

[Lone Wolf]

i leave bible tracts in shelters often

[MoodyBluer]

i leave bible tracts in shelters often


Saw a few tracts in some shelters here in Ga (Stover Creek, Hawk Mtn. & Gooch) last May while sectioning...(Wolf, are you responsible?) fine for those who want or need that. No need to take much offense to this.

What I found interesting is that after Gooch neither Wood's Hole nor Blood shelters had any tracts in them (I went from Springer to Neel's). I got the feeling that whoever left them was trying to reach the initial thru hikers who often face uncertainty and indecision those first few days on the trail and sometimes are thinking of bailing when they get to Woody Gap.

Or maybe they knew that the first butt kick from Sassafras Mtn would have many folks calling out for God in many different ways...:)

[minnesotasmith]

just burn all the shelters for crissakes!

Only if at least one anti-shelter hiker has volunteered to be inside the shelter during the whole proceedings. Like how flag-burning as a political statement should only be allowed if wrapped around the flagburner against their skin, this is a small concession on the part of the anti-shelter extremist to show that they're sincere and to be taken seriously. Otherwise, leave the flag, and the shelters, be.

[aaroniguana]

A flag is just a piece of cloth.

A shelter is just a pile of wood.

A bible is just a stack of paper.

When one assigns meaning and emotional attachment to these things, polarization occurs. When one forces these items on another, conflict occurs.

Is that really how you want to live?

[SGT Rock]

Wow, way to bring back a dead thread.