View Full Version : how illegal is it to carry a gun on a thru hike?
was wondering where it is legal and not legal to carry, what permits are required, etc.
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 11:21
oh christ. here we go. just do a search
i tried and could not find anything that specific.
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 11:34
i tried and could not find anything that specific.
http://www.gunlaws.com/links/
bulldog49
11-05-2008, 13:14
"how illegal is it to carry a gun on a thru hike?"
There are no degrees of legality, it is either legal or illegal.
WalkingStick75
11-05-2008, 13:29
"how illegal is it to carry a gun on a thru hike?"
There are no degrees of legality, it is either legal or illegal.
If you have to ask such a question you probably should consider not carrying a gun.
To summarize:
1) Most people think it is unnecessary to carry a gun on a thru-hike. And there's the issue of not wanting to carry extra weight.
2) If you do choose to carry one, you should know that you will pass through places where it is illegal to carry (National Parks) and places which have restrictive legislation (Massachusetts comes to mind).
"how illegal is it to carry a gun on a thru hike?"
There are no degrees of legality, it is either legal or illegal.
apparently your not a lawyer.
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 13:37
To summarize:
1) Most people think it is unnecessary to carry a gun on a thru-hike.
2) If you do choose to carry one, you should know that you will pass through places where it is illegal to carry (National Parks) and places which have restrictive legislation (Massachusetts comes to mind).
1) there are a few that do
2) that's why i posted a link
If you have to ask such a question you probably should consider not carrying a gun.
really? why?
wanting to know where it is legal or illegal to possess a firearm means i should not have one?
not really following that...
Lone Wolf
11-05-2008, 13:40
really? why?
wanting to know where it is legal or illegal to possess a firearm means i should not have one?
not really following that...
you're gonn catch all kinds of crap from the anti-gunners. ignore them and learn the laws for each state
1) there are a few that do
2) that's why i posted a link
Granted. I didn't go very far into the link, but wonder if it covers all the little nuances of hiking through state parks where carrying guns is often forbidden, or, for instance, going into a bank. All in all, it becomes very complicated.
Toolshed
11-05-2008, 14:59
"how illegal is it to carry a gun on a thru hike?"
There are no degrees of legality, it is either legal or illegal.
Gotta love that question.
jaywalke
11-05-2008, 15:18
Granted. I didn't go very far into the link, but wonder if it covers all the little nuances of hiking through state parks where carrying guns is often forbidden, or, for instance, going into a bank. All in all, it becomes very complicated.
"Complicated" is an understatement. It's a lot more than state parks. As far as I know, most states allow private property (i.e. shops) to choose whether or not to allow weapons onsite, even for licensed CCW holders.
If you drive up to a restaurant and see a "no firearms" sticker (which I do see, even here in the rural South), you can secure your weapon in the car. What do you do in the same scenario while thru-hiking? Leave it outside in your pack? That's just not a great idea. Going to another establishment is the easy answer, but in small trail towns the next restaurant/grocery store, etc. may be an hour's walk.
WalkingStick75
11-05-2008, 15:33
you're gonn catch all kinds of crap from the anti-gunners. ignore them and learn the laws for each state
Not anti gun at all, I teach concealed weapon classes. I stress in the class if they are going out of state to check the laws for that state and so when someone asks a question like this it brings into question a few issues.
Was I a little harsh, possibly but if you are taking on the responsibility of carrying a gun you should also have problem solving skills like how to and a good portion of common sense.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=9ac18fdb558a1c860f5e732ab7134282&rgn=div8&view=text&node=36:1.0.1.1.2.0.1.4&idno=36
Rules for engagement in National Parks
trouthunter
11-05-2008, 18:14
hperry, WB is the wrong place to get that info.
Not that some here can't tell you, or that they don't know, but it is not a credible place to get such important info.
You will have to check the laws in each county/state you plan to be passing through, and how they apply to non-residents.
As far as retailers and their little signs, there is much debate on the legality of such.
I carry myself, and obey the law, but you need to do your due diligence and learn all laws governing carrying a weapon whether concealed or not.
Wise Old Owl
11-05-2008, 23:18
Got to love that question - needs to be an article, as non members cannot view the search. Members have covered this to death. (No Pun Intended)
trout hunter - this is the right place. Period.
Bulldawg
11-05-2008, 23:24
Got to love that question - needs to be an article, as non members cannot view the search.
trout hunter - this is the right place. Period.
Far from the truth there Mark. There are many other places to get this information, other than this site. This is a hiking site Mark, not a site from which to garner legal advice. The OP asked about the legalities of carrying, not your or anyone else's opinion. You sure you aren't drinking tonight, because you sure are full of something, I was thinking maybe alcohol.
The safest thing is to look at the websites for every state you will hike through. For example, you would go to the department of safety website for TN. Read every states specific carry laws and reciprocity with your carry permit. If some don't have reciprocity you may be able to get a non-resident carry permit for that state, or another state that does have reciprocity with that state. For example, WV may not have reciprocity with your sate, but Ohio might. So get a non-resident carry permit for Ohio. I can't remember which ones, but I know there are one or two states that if you get a non-resident permit then you can carry in every state that allows carrying. Your states permit and those two will give you reciprocity with every state that allows carrying weapons.
Then you have to find out what different types of government and private lands you will be walking through, and if you can carry through them. I don't remember seeing too many private places with signs posted forbiding firearms. Again, every state is different so it will require a lot of research.
Why the #$%@ do U need a gun on the AT??????????????? Do U think this is the wild wild west??? LIONS AND AND BEARS OH MY????
phishpapond
11-06-2008, 00:48
It was my understanding that when you are backpacking you are to home no mateer whare you happen tobe. If that is true you can have a gun to defend yourselfat home according to the resent ruling on the issue.
Then
Not true. National Parks? What resent ruling are you speaking of?
I don't mean to fuel any fires, but does anyone know of any thru-hiker who has ever carried a gun? I certainly haven't run across anyone carrying a gun on a trail other than horse packers out west, and hunters in-season.
Haiku.
I don't mean to fuel any fires, but does anyone know of any thru-hiker who has ever carried a gun? I certainly haven't run across anyone carrying a gun on a trail other than horse packers out west, and hunters in-season.
Haiku.
Yeah, I knew of atleast 5 this year. They seemed responsible, never pulled it out, and they only told me because we got to be very good friends over time and because of my background. No one else knew they had one on them, and that's how it should be. Didn't bother me one bit that they were carrying, but I carry all the time at home so I'm comfortable around them.
It was my understanding that when you are backpacking you are to home no mateer whare you happen tobe. If that is true you can have a gun to defend yourselfat home according to the resent ruling on the issue.
Then
No, that whole ruling where you are "home" wherever you are sleeping is for motels/hotels/campers etc. You have no reasonable expectation of property in the woods or in a tent. They have to "break into" where you are to be a threat. In the woods you have no right to the area like you do a place you are renting. If that were the case then you can carry a handgun anywhere like New York City, DC, absolutely anywhere as long as you intend to sleep where you stand.
Lone Wolf
11-06-2008, 05:46
Why the #$%@ do U need a gun on the AT???????????????
i ask the same ???? about water filters, leki poles and bear bags. ain't about needing, it's about wanting
Lone Wolf
11-06-2008, 05:48
I don't mean to fuel any fires, but does anyone know of any thru-hiker who has ever carried a gun?
oh heck yeah
Dances with Mice
11-06-2008, 06:02
Why the #$%@ do U need a gun on the AT??????????????? Do U think this is the wild wild west??? LIONS AND AND BEARS OH MY???? The Top Ten Reasons to Carry a Gun on the AT:
10. It comes in handy when driving tent stakes into hard ground.
9. Bear bag rope stuck in tree? No problem!
8. Need another tie-out place in your tarp?
7. Water accumulating at the bottom of your pack cover? Make a drain hole.
6. Quiets owls and whiporwills so you can sleep.
5. Snake won't move off the trail? Make it into two snakes.
4. Quickly unties knots.
3. Opens bottles when your fingers are cold.
2. Forget your fishing pole?
And the Number One Reason to Carry a Gun on the AT:
Chicks dig them.
Homer&Marje
11-06-2008, 06:55
was wondering where it is legal and not legal to carry, what permits are required, etc.
I'm not even going to jump in too far. People take their second amendment right too far. WHO THE HELL NEEDS A GUN WHILE HIKING? If you're so terrified of the outside world. Stay home, the imgrants won't git ju thar.
Toolshed
11-06-2008, 07:20
I'm not even going to jump in too far. People take their second amendment right too far. WHO THE HELL NEEDS A GUN WHILE HIKING? If you're so terrified of the outside world. Stay home, the imgrants won't git ju thar.
Wow!!! you're right. Inever thought of it that way.
Tell that to a woman that is ready to vote - She is taking the 19th too far.. Or how about enslaving a black - "Get back in the fields - You are taking the 13th too far."
How about someone comes in the middle of the night and drags your ass outta your house, tosses your house and puts you in prison because of your beleifs???? What?????? It's OK Homer, you are taking 1, 4 and 8 too seriously.
Skidsteer
11-06-2008, 07:23
The Top Ten Reasons to Carry a Gun on the AT:
10. It comes in handy when driving tent stakes into hard ground.
9. Bear bag rope stuck in tree? No problem!
8. Need another tie-out place in your tarp?
7. Water accumulating at the bottom of your pack cover? Make a drain hole.
6. Quiets owls and whiporwills so you can sleep.
5. Snake won't move off the trail? Make it into two snakes.
4. Quickly unties knots.
3. Opens bottles when your fingers are cold.
2. Forget your fishing pole?
And the Number One Reason to Carry a Gun on the AT:
Chicks dig them.
I think we found our article on guns. :D
I'm not even going to jump in too far. People take their second amendment right too far. WHO THE HELL NEEDS A GUN WHILE HIKING? If you're so terrified of the outside world. Stay home, the imgrants won't git ju thar.
who ever said anyone needed one? whats the big deal if someone values personal protection, however slim the odds are they need it?
Why the #$%@ do U need a gun on the AT???????????????
Folks carry guns for the piece of mind, and knowing that they have personal protection in a jam. 99% of gun owners who are not hunters hope they never have to fire their gun outside of target practice.
I am not considering carrying a gun because i think it is crazy not to, or that the trail is filled with all kinds of danger.
get a grip.
Lone Wolf
11-06-2008, 07:31
i carry. it ain't no biggie
oldfivetango
11-06-2008, 07:38
i carry. it ain't no biggie
What?The gun or the issue?
Oldfivetango
ps Aren't you afraid some anti-gun nut will turn you in to the
next park ranger?I have always wondered............................
Lone Wolf
11-06-2008, 07:41
ps Aren't you afraid some anti-gun nut will turn you in to the
next park ranger?I have always wondered............................
nah.
WalkingStick75
11-06-2008, 07:46
Why the #$%@ do U need a gun on the AT??????????????? Do U think this is the wild wild west??? LIONS AND AND BEARS OH MY????
Gary Hiltons victims and family will probably disagree with you on this one!
I defend anybody right to carry, I carry but never have while backpacking. Personally just don't want the weight. I never camp near a road, if I'm not comfortable with those I'm with I will loose them. Use that sixth sense everyone was born with.
My personal recommendation is if you carry NEVER tell anyone, you loose that element of surprise and their is a bit of gun security in others not knowing.
mtnkngxt
11-06-2008, 07:54
x2 on not telling. Wouldn't reccomend carrying without having a conceal and carry permit regardless. Thats everyones personal business. However if you're going to carry a semi do us all a favor and don't hike with one in the chamber.I love my semis, but if I ever decide to hike with one hamerless revolver is the safest and lightest option IMO.
Alligator
11-06-2008, 07:57
Moved to SF. Respond accordingly.
Lone Wolf
11-06-2008, 07:58
I love my semis, but if I ever decide to hike with one hamerless revolver is the safest and lightest option IMO.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14760&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15704&isFirearm=Y
mtnkngxt
11-06-2008, 08:02
Nice pickup LW thats one of the ones I have, also have a 340PD and an assortment of hand and long guns.
Homer&Marje
11-06-2008, 08:07
Wow!!! you're right. Inever thought of it that way.
Tell that to a woman that is ready to vote - She is taking the 19th too far.. Or how about enslaving a black - "Get back in the fields - You are taking the 13th too far."
How about someone comes in the middle of the night and drags your ass outta your house, tosses your house and puts you in prison because of your beleifs???? What?????? It's OK Homer, you are taking 1, 4 and 8 too seriously.
On what planet did I mention illegal search and seizure or cruel and unusual punishment by the US Government. I don't take either of those rights for granted as far as I know, The second amendment says that one can have a gun to protect your own personal property i.e. your home, providing permits, licenses, and training. That does not guarantee you the right to carry a gun through federal, state, and local lands along the AT where it is not always legal to carry no matter permits, licenses, or training. That is why you should not carry a gun....on a thru hike...because it is ILLEGAL in SOME areas along the trail.
The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution) is the part of the Bill of Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights) which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_and_seizure). It was designed as a response to the controversial writ of assistance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writ_of_assistance) (a type of general search warrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_warrant)), which was a significant factor behind the American Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution). Toward that end, the amendment specifically requires search and arrest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest) warrants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_%28law%29) be judicially (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary) sanctioned, supported by probable cause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause) and be limited in scope according to specific information supplied by a person (usually a law enforcement officer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_officer)) who has sworn by it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affidavit) and is therefore accountable to the issuing court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perjury).
The Eighth Amendment (Amendment VIII) to the United States Constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution) is the part of the United States Bill of Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights) which prohibits the federal government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States) from imposing excessive bail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excessive_bail), excessive fines, and cruel and unusual punishments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruel_and_unusual_punishment). The phrases employed are taken from the English Bill of Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689) of 1689. In Robinson v. California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinson_v._California), 370 U.S. 660 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=370&page=660) (1962), the Supreme Court of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States) said that the Cruel and Unusual Punishments Clause is applicable to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion). The Court has not explicitly ruled on whether the Excessive Bail and Excessive Fines Clauses apply to the states.
As far as retailers and their little signs, there is much debate on the legality of such.There shouldn't be. I emphatically support the right to bear arms, but I also emphatically support the right of people to govern what happens on their property. If you don't want guns in your house, or store, or whatever, you shouldn't be forced to have them there.
It was my understanding that when you are backpacking you are to home no mateer whare you happen tobe. If that is true you can have a gun to defend yourselfat home according to the resent ruling on the issue.If you're referring to the Supreme Court ruling on DC gun laws, it didn't really touch on the issue; however, given the discussion in Scalia's majority opinion, I suspect that regulating guns in parks and such would probably be approved by them.
WHO THE HELL NEEDS A GUN WHILE HIKING? If you're so terrified of the outside world. Stay home, the imgrants won't git ju thar.Who the heck needs a seat belt, or air bags, when driving? The chances of having an accident aren't that high.
Why bother coming down off the mountain during a thunderstorm? The chances of getting struck by lightning aren't that high.
Why purify your water? The chances of getting sick aren't that high.
We can reasonably argue the practicality of carrying a gun while hiking vs. the risk, but dismissing all people who want to carry as cowards is ignorant and hypocritical.
Alligator
11-06-2008, 08:16
This isn't going to be a constitutional debate. Cite the specific laws/information required to carry.
OldStormcrow
11-06-2008, 09:37
What?The gun or the issue?
Oldfivetango
ps Aren't you afraid some anti-gun nut will turn you in to the
next park ranger?I have always wondered............................
The trick is to carry, but not hanging out of the front of your pants like Pancho Villa. There's a lot to be said for discretion. On the trail you will be passing through National Forests, State Forests, National Parks, State Parks, National Monuments, bus stations, towns, game preserves, and about 500 different wildlife management areas....all of which have wildly varying laws concerning guns of any type. IMHO there is no way that anyone can ever be fully prepared or aware of all the regional restrictions on firearms, so just keep it to yourself and wear that secret little smile!
jaywalke
11-06-2008, 09:55
As far as retailers and their little signs, there is much debate on the legality of such.
No debate in Virginia. It's in the code, clear and straightforward:
"O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property."
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308
Of course, if you want to spend five or ten years embroiled in a Supreme Court test case, knock yourself out, but I wouldn't call that type of slim chance a real "debate."
trouthunter
11-06-2008, 10:35
No debate in Virginia. It's in the code, clear and straightforward:
"O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property."
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308
Of course, if you want to spend five or ten years embroiled in a Supreme Court test case, knock yourself out, but I wouldn't call that type of slim chance a real "debate."
Yeah, poor choice of words on my part I guess.
I should have said: There is much debate on whether or not the law is constitutional.
I am not however taking sides, I'm just aware of the debate. It has been hashed to death around here.
Yeah, I knew of atleast 5 this year. They seemed responsible, never pulled it out, and they only told me because we got to be very good friends over time and because of my background. No one else knew they had one on them, and that's how it should be. Didn't bother me one bit that they were carrying, but I carry all the time at home so I'm comfortable around them.
I guess I've just never run into a thru-hiker who carries. Or I never knew. So let me ask another question, definitely not intended as bait in any way. Hiker clothes don't offer much in the way of concealment, so if you're going to carry and not show it off it would be in your pack. That means if you ever needed it while hiking you'd have to take off your pack and retrieve it. Does that make it less useful? Or as we talking about much smaller handguns, with slim concealable holsters that would fit in/beneath cargo shorts?
Like I said before, my only experience with guns on hiking trails is horse packers who open carry on their hips.
Haiku.
I guess I've just never run into a thru-hiker who carries. Or I never knew. So let me ask another question, definitely not intended as bait in any way. Hiker clothes don't offer much in the way of concealment, so if you're going to carry and not show it off it would be in your pack. That means if you ever needed it while hiking you'd have to take off your pack and retrieve it. Does that make it less useful? Or as we talking about much smaller handguns, with slim concealable holsters that would fit in/beneath cargo shorts?
Like I said before, my only experience with guns on hiking trails is horse packers who open carry on their hips.
Haiku.
Kept it in their packs. The safest time on the trail is usually when actually hiking. Sometimes we had to camp in a less than desireable place, and slept with the firearm. There were quite a few places where we camped where we were close to roads or heavily used atv trails. Some shelters are listed in the guidebooks as to be avoided at nights because of locals. So when walking it's in the pack because you can't really carry anything that will take down a bear without too much weight, and bears aren't an issue on the AT. Crazy people are, and you are most vulnerable when asleep. Also for carrying in towns, especially when hitch hiking to non-trail towns that are a ways from the trail.
I carried for the first half of the trail this year, but doubt I will next year. I hitch hiked over 3000 miles on side trips along the east coast, stealth camped inside towns a lot, and walked though a lot of towns at night this year on my thru. Stayed in some very shady motels off the trail, walked 20 miles through Baltimore through the "rough" part of town, and was very glad I had my weapon. Almost had to use it in one town when someone was trying to rob me. So a gun isn't really necessary on the trail I think, but I spent most of my 7 months off the trail in other towns and there I could have easily needed it.
trouthunter
11-07-2008, 09:59
I carry on fishing bushwacks, I have a concealed pocket on my pack that allows me to draw while hiking, and yes you can carry a large gun easily in your shorts with the right holster.
I carry a Glock, in 45 ACP
I do not carry on well established, high traffic trails. But I do agree with NEST it is good to be armed under the right circumstances.
Also, if you find yourself in an area with lots of black bears such as the Chillhowie or Cades Cove areas
( and lots of others), and you have an encounter with a territorial bear, a shot placed in the ground, short of the bear, is usually enough. This is a lot more startling to a bear than you yelling HEY BEAR...HEY BEAR .
Problem bears have lost their fear of man, and the recommendation by bear experts is to re-instill that fear as much as possible during an encounter. Throw rocks & sticks, don't just yell.
coldspring
11-07-2008, 10:39
I have a a very good friend that makes quality handmade concealing holsters, that are half the price as the mass producers. Feel free to PM me for details.
I like guns and hunting and fishing alright, but I don't own one nor do I hunt and fish. I always see people getting into trouble for one thing or another, and I feel like dealing with the law and game wardens are more of a threat than just not doing it. It's a lot less stress, for me, to not worry about about such issues. Same thing with substances. I just drink my beer or booze at a camp and don't get into trouble for DWIs or whatever is illegal. Trouble with the law isn't worth it, and if you get some kind of gun charge against you, you'll be wishing you had just put your safety in god's hands, or took your chances if you are an atheist. I've had to visit too many folks that I know in prisons, and you don't want to end up there.
Alligator
11-07-2008, 11:16
This thread is in Straight Forward (white background:-?). It was moved here because the topic of guns just about always wanders. So in the interest of providing space where those interested in carrying can get on topic information, please stay on topic. Otherwise, opponents to carrying will also post off topic information and it becomes a mess wherein things get deleted or heaven forbid the thread ends up closed and everyone bitches.
Please start another thread (preferably in SF) if you want to discuss off topic (as relates to the thread opener) so we do not need to remove useful but off topic material.
TYVM:sun.
*Reminder of topic
how illegal is it to carry a gun on a thru hike?
was wondering where it is legal and not legal to carry, what permits are required, etc.
Among the places carrying is not legal is Baxter State Park.
Weary
Rockhound
11-07-2008, 19:02
still curious as to why anyone would want to carry a gun on the AT. are you going hiking or are you going hunting? after trimming down the pack weight why in the world would you want to throw a big hunk of metal in there? protection? to that i say quit living in fear.
still curious as to why anyone would want to carry a gun on the AT. are you going hiking or are you going hunting? after trimming down the pack weight why in the world would you want to throw a big hunk of metal in there? protection? to that i say quit living in fear.
Please read post #54. Your post is off topic. The Straight Forward Forum was started specifically to provide a forum that is strictly question and answer driven.
sticks&stones
11-07-2008, 19:14
I'd end up shooting holes thru the sides of my tent, in the highcountry, after getting into some bad shine
trouthunter
11-07-2008, 19:28
I will stay on topic.
Here is an article that discusses this topic, it has a good bit of facts and figures as well.
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2008/may/05/chattanooga-hikers-packing-concealed-heat/
The OP should read it.
I'd end up shooting holes thru the sides of my tent, in the highcountry, after getting into some bad shine
I will stay on topic.
Here is an article that discusses this topic, it has a good bit of facts and figures as well.
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2008/may/05/chattanooga-hikers-packing-concealed-heat/
The OP should read it.
Start a new thread if you wan't to introduce the "need" factor or even crime statistics in general. The article cited by you is full of inaccuracies. The most glaring of which, unfortunately, involves Meredith Emerson. You are off topic, trouthunter.
Bulldawg
11-07-2008, 22:26
Start a new thread if you wan't to introduce the "need" factor or event crime statistics in general. The article cited by you is full of inaccuracies. The most glaring of which, unfortunately, involves Meredith Emerson. You are off topic, trouthunter.
Yes, we hashed through that entire article months ago on here. I think maybe before the crack down even.
Homer&Marje
11-08-2008, 01:44
All those who plan to pass through Mass, read. Pulled right from the Massachusetts general law website. Guess you'll have to deal with the Holes without guns.
Chapter 140: Section 131G. Carrying of firearms by non-residents; conditions
Section 131G. Any person who is not a resident of the commonwealth may carry a pistol or revolver in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of taking part in a pistol or revolver competition or attending any meeting or exhibition of any organized group of firearm collectors or for the purpose of hunting; provided, that such person is a resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district or territory thereof which has licensing requirements which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs; provided, further, that in the case of a person traveling in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of hunting, he has on his person a hunting or sporting license issued by the commonwealth or by the state of his destination. Police officers and other peace officers of any state, territory or jurisdiction within the United States duly authorized to possess firearms by the laws thereof shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have a permit or license to carry firearms as described in this section.
Jack Tarlin
11-08-2008, 14:32
The A.T. goes thru all kinds of jurisdictions......there are National Parks; State Parks; State Game Lands; preserves; wildlife management areas; other state-owned land; other Federally owned or administered land; privately owned land, etc.
Also, laws are different in each state and the Trail goes thru 14 of them. In many cases, one crosses a line and enters another state without even being aware of it.
But the reality is that unless you a Federal law enforcement officer of great stature (like an
FBI guy, US Marshall, ATF agent, etc.) it is impossible for you to always be in compliance with the law.
Which is another way of saying that if you choose to carry on a thru-hike, you'll almost certainly be breaking the law at some point.
Leave the gun at home.
Toolshed
11-08-2008, 16:08
...time to lose another foolish thread.....
...time to lose another foolish thread.........Time to stay on topic and add info RE: the OP.....
Among the places where it is illegal to carry a gun is inside a post office.
Best not to break the law. In point of fact only 4 or 5 thruhikers have been murdered on the AT, out of many thousands who start each year.
In some states like MA, even carrying pepper spray with out a license can get you arrested!
Why risk it?
The A.T. goes thru all kinds of jurisdictions......there are National Parks; State Parks; State Game Lands; preserves; wildlife management areas; other state-owned land; other Federally owned or administered land; privately owned land, etc.
Also, laws are different in each state and the Trail goes thru 14 of them. In many cases, one crosses a line and enters another state without even being aware of it.
But the reality is that unless you a Federal law enforcement officer of great stature (like an
FBI guy, US Marshall, ATF agent, etc.) it is impossible for you to always be in compliance with the law.
Which is another way of saying that if you choose to carry on a thru-hike, you'll almost certainly be breaking the law at some point.
Leave the gun at home.
Jack, of course, is right -- except for the last five words -- which is an opinion -- though not logically wrong. I really no longer have any objection to people carrying, though I remain convinced that it is simply another needless weight. But those who choose to do so need to recognize that carrying for the length of the trail is impossible without breaking some law at times.
Those who want to chance it, can either hope for a more defining Supreme Court decision before they leave for Springer. Or just gamble, recogniziing that if an incident occurs near the trail, you probably can escape being a suspect, by simply hiding the gun, after carefully wiping off any finger prints.
Weary, who after a busy day finds it difficult to concentrate on such mundane matters.
WalkingStick75
11-09-2008, 18:10
Or just gamble, recognizing that if an incident occurs near the trail, you probably can escape being a suspect, by simply hiding the gun, after carefully wiping off any finger prints.
What? Nothing suspicious about that. Why make yourself look guilty? So they find the gun you hid, they check the registration and then find you. Not only did you make yourself a suspect but you are taking up valuable time in catching the real suspect. Even if you get caught with a gun in a National Park (or wherever) you face a minor charge which faced with a much more serious problem may be overlooked but after you take up the investigation time explaining why you hide the gun and wipe it clean. You will be lucky to clear that up in a few days, probably months if not years to clear up!
HikerRanky
11-18-2008, 09:54
Please keep in mind that this is the Straight Forward section, and the original question is "how illegal is it to carry a gun on a thru hike?"... discussion about RKBA and political terms outside of the scope of the AT will be deleted.
Jack Tarlin
11-18-2008, 12:48
Straight forward answer: The Trail goes through so many different types of places and different jurisdictions that unless one were a very high-ranking Federal official or law-enforcement officer, in many areas, one would be breaking the law if they were carrying a firearm.
How illegal is it to carry a gun on a thru hike?
Straight forward answer: In many places, except for a very few people, it would absolutely be illegal.
Secret Squirrel
11-18-2008, 14:01
That's right. Really, only Federal Law Enforcement Officers don't have the jurisdictional problems. But only those who have unlimited carry authority.
Some Federal officers can only carry when on duty.
For state and local officers it depends on whether or not they have "peace officer" status if they are out of their jurisdiction.
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the AT is a National Park for its entire length. National Parks never allow firearms to be carried by visitors.
Why the complicated state-by-state explanations?
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the AT is a National Park for its entire length. National Parks never allow firearms to be carried by visitors.
Why the complicated state-by-state explanations?
It's not actually a National Park. As it runs along, it runs through land owned by all sorts of entities, from National Parks to State Parks to the Forest Service to a bit of privately-owned land. The laws and regulations of each area apply in each area, affecting carrying guns, building campfires, setting up tents, etc.
The areas where the trail does not run through public lands are owned by the National Park Service. I was on the trail in Pennsylvania this summer where this was the case. Land was acquired at great expense for the trail. There were signs all over the place saying, in effect: "National Park Service land, no firearms allowed in the corridor".
Lone Wolf
02-14-2009, 06:47
out of sight, out of mind.
What does that mean, please?
Lone Wolf
02-14-2009, 07:10
if the gun is out of sight, who's gonna know if you're carryin'? signs mean nothing. hell, 55 MPH means 75 to most
4eyedbuzzard
02-14-2009, 07:52
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the AT is a National Park for its entire length. National Parks never allow firearms to be carried by visitors.
Why the complicated state-by-state explanations?
The federal regulation prohibiting carry of firearms in NP's(and wildlife refuges) was repealed/modified to allow carry of concealed weapons by persons who could otherwise legally do so in the state the NP lies within. This rule change occurred toward the end of the Bush admin, was enacted by the former Sec of the Interior, and took effect in early January. Carry of concealed defensive firearms in NP's is now based upon the firearms/weapons/concealed carry laws of the state in which the NP is located.
The law(36 CFR and 50 CFR amended): http://www.doi.gov/issues/NPS_FR_PDF12-9-08.pdf
EDIT: Note that, in addition, under the federal LEOSA act, law enforcement officers from any US jurisdiction(fed, state, local), both active and retired, who meet the LEOSA qualification standards, are considered to possess the concealed carry rights of a private citizen under all applicable state laws(but not necessarily federal law). For example, a retired NH policeman who meets the Leosa standard, may carry in all 50 states, including such as NJ, NY, etc, -- but is otherwise subject to the laws of that state as if he were a private citizen--he does not enjoy status/protection of an LEO acting on duty. Also note that under the previous NP regulation that was repealed, LEOSA did not exempt carry in NP's by active or retired LEO's, as that was a fed regulation.
The law: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000926---B000-.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000926---C000-.html
SGT Rock
02-14-2009, 07:54
Exactly. I've got a carry book somewhere that lists reciprocal laws and such. There are states where it is illegal to carry on a thru - like New Jersey where it can be illegal just to have hollow point bullets in your possession. We are not even talking how illegal it is to have a gun.
The federal regulation prohibiting carry of firearms in NP's(and wildlife refuges) was repealed/modified to allow carry of concealed weapons by persons who could otherwise legally do so in the state the NP lies within. This rule change occurred toward the end of the Bush admin, was enacted by the former Sec of the Interior, and took effect in early January. Carry of concealed defensive firearms in NP's is now based upon the firearms/weapons/concealed carry laws of the state in which the NP is located.
The law(36 CFR and 50 CFR amended): http://www.doi.gov/issues/NPS_FR_PDF12-9-08.pdf
Please also note that as one of his first official acts Obama put ALL of the previous administrations actions on "hold for review" (It's a common practice for incoming Presidents). The repeal of the National Parks restrictions was one of the actions so held. So in effect the law has been sort of "un-repealed" as of now. I'm not sure how the process works things like this out.
I meant to state that it was all of the previous admins PENDING not enacted yet actions.
I noticed that the OP did not specify the AT in his question - and there are many, many other thru hikeable trails.
4eyedbuzzard
02-14-2009, 09:21
Please also note that as one of his first official acts Obama put ALL of the previous administrations actions on "hold for review" (It's a common practice for incoming Presidents). The repeal of the National Parks restrictions was one of the actions so held. So in effect the law has been sort of "un-repealed" as of now. I'm not sure how the process works things like this out.
Upon being signed and published in the Federal Register and then placed into effect 30 days later(which occured on Jan 9, 2009), the CFR became the law of the land. Until the CFR is again amended, it represents the current law. It can certainly be amended again, reviewed under the Congressional Review Act, and changed under the rule making process, etc, but it currently stands as the law.
The current Sec of Interior, appointed by President Obama, is Ken Salazar, former Dem Congressman from Colorado, who is a long time supporter of firearms rights, and had this to say on the new regulation: http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/01/secretary-salazar-guns-parks-hell-take-look-it
I wouldn't expect anything to happen very quickly, if even ever, on this. There are a lot of bigger fish to fry facing the nation and the Obama administration at this time. I doubt they'll be expending much political capital here. The issue is very divisive, and little good would come of further polarizing Congress at this time when the administration needs support from both Dems and Repubs, many of whom are gun-friendly regardless of party affiliation.
john gault
02-14-2009, 09:24
...
I wouldn't expect anything to happen very quickly, if even ever, on this. There are a lot of bigger fish to fry facing the nation and the Obama administration at this time. I doubt they'll be expending much political capital here. The issue is very divisive, and little good would come of further polarizing Congress at this time when the administration needs support from both Dems and Repubs, many of whom are gun-friendly regardless of party affiliation.
That's the way I see it.
Rockhound
02-14-2009, 09:36
How legal is it? It's not a question of degree. It either is or isn't. It's like a girl being kind of pregnant. Kind of? No. she either is or isn't. As a gun owner you should know the laws ahead of time and also know where to find those laws. WB ain't the place. Sure there are other gun owners that will have that info. Were these hiker/gun owners that much smarter than you that they were able to obtain that info without going on WB? When that issue is raised here all it does is press the buttons of a lot of people on both sides of the issue. Why don't you come to the WB to answer your hiking questions and go to a gun site to answer questions related to that?
Rockhound
02-14-2009, 09:39
I don't go to the cooking channel to learn how to fix a car. Why go to a hiking site to find out the legalities of gun ownership?
I don't go to the cooking channel to learn how to fix a car. Why go to a hiking site to find out the legalities of gun ownership?
Because he wants to take it on a hike and this is a hiking forum. Just calm down and back slowly away from the thread.
Homer&Marje
02-14-2009, 09:44
Because he wants to take it on a hike and this is a hiking forum. Just calm down and back slowly away from the thread.
Would be nearly impossible to carry a gun on the AT or any other thru hike in the US for that matter and do it legally. Simple fact.
Would be nearly impossible to carry a gun on the AT or any other thru hike in the US for that matter and do it legally. Simple fact.
I agree. It's not a bad thing that he asked a question that's hiking related and got links and other info explaining that.
4eyedbuzzard
02-14-2009, 09:57
How legal is it? It's not a question of degree. It either is or isn't. It's like a girl being kind of pregnant. Kind of? No. she either is or isn't. As a gun owner you should know the laws ahead of time and also know where to find those laws. WB ain't the place. Sure there are other gun owners that will have that info. Were these hiker/gun owners that much smarter than you that they were able to obtain that info without going on WB? When that issue is raised here all it does is press the buttons of a lot of people on both sides of the issue. Why don't you come to the WB to answer your hiking questions and go to a gun site to answer questions related to that?
The law, for better or worse, is rarely a matter of black and white. If it were, 95% of lawyers wouldn't have jobs, and 95% of courts wouldn't be needed. The issue of carrying a weapon on the AT falls under a confusing and often conflicting myriad of federal law, the individual laws of 14 different states, and countless local laws. It isn't as easy as you suggest. In defense of the OP, most gun owners on gun sites would know much less about the legal issues of carrying concealed as it relates to the AT.
I agree wholeheartedly with your statement that, "As a gun owner you should know the laws ahead of time and also know where to find those laws."
To that end, and to help the OP find those laws, I have posted in response my understanding of the current federal law, along with links to the federal regulations. Obviously, it is every gun owner's personal responsibility to independently assess and verify all the federal, state, and local laws regarding firearms.
I make no endorsement as to carrying or not carrying a weapon either on or off the trail, which I feel is a personal decision best left to the individual.
wrongway_08
02-14-2009, 11:49
Just depends if you get cought. I would suggest a .38 with a silencer, this way if you need to shoot someone in deffense, no one will hear it and you can continue your hike as if nothing happened.
I wish there was a US wide carry permit you could obtain if you're a legally abiding citizen who is just trying to protect yourself/loved ones.
There is no reason a responsible person with a clean record who maybe passes some kind of safe handling class can't carry a weapon anywhere in the US they please, in and out of states, national parks, wherever.
wrongway_08
02-14-2009, 12:12
Would be impossible, unless your a federal officer... then its legal.
If people would wake, they would demand that citizens be able to legally carry anywhere but seems most citizens are happy with only crimminals being the ones having the right to carry them.
Every year, Maryland does a study, ask crimminals if its would make a difference if citizens had the right to carry.... they all say yes.... it would make a diffeence because then they dont know who will be an easy target or not. Yet the law makers and select idiot citizens vote not to allow conceal carry. I can only hope that its only these peoples family members that will get killed in gun related crimes - its their fault things are the way they are and they should be the only ones paying for it.
I have no problem with people carryn on the trail. Last year those two hikers got shot by the gunman, maybe the hiker would have been able to kill that worthless gunman if he was allowed to carry himself. Just one more example of crimminals having the upperhand
Rockhound
02-14-2009, 12:29
I am in total agreement that law abiding citizens should be able to carry where and when they want. I just don't see the need for it on the trail. Of course people will be quick to point out the handful of incidents that have occurred on the AT over the years but considering the amount of people who have hiked vs. the number of incidents it is clearly safer on the trail than in society at large. It's funny that people who don't carry a gun in their every day lives think they need to start packin' when they hit the AT where the risk is less. Combine that with thy myriad of legal hoops you have to jump through hiking through 13 states it's just not worth the hassle. But HYOH
le loupe
02-14-2009, 12:39
Would be impossible, unless your a federal officer... then its legal.
If people would wake, they would demand that citizens be able to legally carry anywhere but seems most citizens are happy with only crimminals being the ones having the right to carry them.
Every year, Maryland does a study, ask crimminals if its would make a difference if citizens had the right to carry.... they all say yes.... it would make a diffeence because then they dont know who will be an easy target or not. Yet the law makers and select idiot citizens vote not to allow conceal carry. I can only hope that its only these peoples family members that will get killed in gun related crimes - its there fault things are the way they are and they should be the only ones paying for it.
I have no problem with people carryn on the trail. Last year those two hikers got shot by the gunman, maybe the hiker would have been able to kill that worthless gunman if he was allowed to carry himself. Just one more example of crimminals having the upperhand
Amen, preach on, brother!
SGT Rock
02-14-2009, 14:22
Looks like with my Tennessee permit I am legal to carry in the following states through reciprocity agreements:
Georgia
North Carolina
Tennessee
Virginia
West Virginia
Pennsylvania
New Hampshire
Looks like these states would at least recognize my permit and allow me to carry:
Vermont
So these are the states that it would be illegal for me to carry:
Connecticut
New Jersey
New York
Maryland
Maine
Massachusetts
Of course this doesn't take into account site specific rules for each state. Like in Tennessee you cannot carry into anyplace that sells alcohol by the drink.
wrongway_08
02-14-2009, 14:45
I am in total agreement that law abiding citizens should be able to carry where and when they want. I just don't see the need for it on the trail. Of course people will be quick to point out the handful of incidents that have occurred on the AT over the years but considering the amount of people who have hiked vs. the number of incidents it is clearly safer on the trail than in society at large. It's funny that people who don't carry a gun in their every day lives think they need to start packin' when they hit the AT where the risk is less. Combine that with thy myriad of legal hoops you have to jump through hiking through 13 states it's just not worth the hassle. But HYOH
Yea, either you carry or you dont - dont carry just cause your going to hike the trail - those are the ones who end up shooting their own foot!
BUT... the more lawfull/smart gunowners .... the better. Even if we have every citizen carryn a gun and there only comes a need to take out one crimminal a year .... its better then what we have now ..... every crimminal having one and almost everyone else up ****s creek.
On the trail, it comes down to having to carry a gun, taking care of it and watching after it. This would mean no drinking, no smoking pot (for those that do) and constantly having it on your side - even when its hot out/ cold out. Unless your ready to use it and have easy acsess to the gun to defend your self.. leave it at home. Gun owners do have this extra responsibility because they cant just put it in a lockbox or have someone look after it while they party with fellow thru-hikers.
If your legal to carry, do it as long as you can be responsible the whole 2,174 miles.
4eyedbuzzard
02-14-2009, 14:47
Any person, resident or non-resident, over the age of 16 who can legally possess a gun can carry concealed in Vermont. VT does not require nor does it issue CCW permits.
And amazingly, or perhaps not so, VT perenially has one of the lowest crime rates, including firearms crimes, in the country.
DaSchwartz
02-14-2009, 15:28
Looks like with my Tennessee permit I am legal to carry in the following states through reciprocity agreements:
Georgia
North Carolina
Tennessee
Virginia
West Virginia
Pennsylvania
New Hampshire.
Unless local laws, federal land, or private ownership supercedes. An example is a bank. They can make rules that you can't carry any concealed weapon on their property even if the state allows you to carry one otherwise. They have the full right as a private owner to ban your gun from their property.
I'm sure the federal lands throughout the AT can do the same thing, if they say you can't carry a concealed gun, it doesn't matter if the state allows it or not.
Also did you know that 100,000's of guns are STOLEN each year from gun owners? If some bad guy on the trail knows you are carrying a gun, it would be real easy for them to steal it from you. Don't pretend otherwise either.
4eyedbuzzard
02-14-2009, 16:15
Unless local laws, federal land, or private ownership supercedes. An example is a bank. They can make rules that you can't carry any concealed weapon on their property even if the state allows you to carry one otherwise. They have the full right as a private owner to ban your gun from their property.
True, but they would have to inform you of that decision and ask you to remove the firearm or leave, or post the policy conspiciously if it were otherwise legal.
I'm sure the federal lands throughout the AT can do the same thing, if they say you can't carry a concealed gun, it doesn't matter if the state allows it or not.
That would be true, but current federal law does not prohibit carrying in NP's, NF's, NWR's, BLM, etc--rather it requires the person to comply with the state law the land is in.
Also did you know that 100,000's of guns are STOLEN each year from gun owners? If some bad guy on the trail knows you are carrying a gun, it would be real easy for them to steal it from you. Don't pretend otherwise either.
That is honestly pretty absurd. Exactly how is a criminal going to 1) know I have a concealed weapon(it's concealed, remember)? 2) persuade me to give it up(the last thing I would ever do)? Exactly who is pretending here?
Alligator
02-15-2009, 19:04
OK, cleaned up. This thread is in Straight Forward and the topic is legal issues of carrying a gun on a thru hike.
SGT Rock
02-16-2009, 17:56
Unless local laws, federal land, or private ownership supercedes. An example is a bank. They can make rules that you can't carry any concealed weapon on their property even if the state allows you to carry one otherwise. They have the full right as a private owner to ban your gun from their property.
Yes I know that. I even mentioned that in my post. I guess you missed that.
That said, I work bank security now. Banks tend not to have this sort of rule. Lots of customers who bring large deposits are armed because they are targets. As a courtesy to our customers they are allowed to be armed if they have a permit - and we also don't check permits, basically it is on the honor system. But if you start waving it around in the bank chances are you are going to get dropped.
I'm sure the federal lands throughout the AT can do the same thing, if they say you can't carry a concealed gun, it doesn't matter if the state allows it or not.
Just hiked in the Smokies, got off the trail just a couple of hours ago. Guess what the sign outside the Cades Cove visitor center said? "No carrying of firearms into this establishment unless you have a valid state issued permit". I also know from being a soldier that all gates have a nice big sign to let you know it is illegal to carry there. Post offices that do not allow you to bring a weapon in (some are still in country stores) also will say if it is prohibited.
Using Tennessee as an example - about the only places in Tennessee that you cannot bring a weapon into are schools and places that sell alchohol by the drink - and even they have signs to tell you that. It's been my experience that establishments that don't want weapons make sure you know that. They don't tend to play gotya games.
Also did you know that 100,000's of guns are STOLEN each year from gun owners? If some bad guy on the trail knows you are carrying a gun, it would be real easy for them to steal it from you. Don't pretend otherwise either.
I answer the legality question. I am not going to get off track with the how or why or why not to carry or if I think someone even needs to on the trail It is like fording the Kennebeck. Let people know the facts and then make an informed decision for themselves based on their skills, knowledge and attitude.