View Full Version : Teen wins photo contest while hiking Appalachian Trail - Press News
WhiteBlaze
11-12-2008, 17:50
<table border=0 width= valign=top cellpadding=2 cellspacing=7><tr><td valign=top class=j><font style="font-size:85%;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br><div style="padding-top:0.8em;"><img alt="" height="1" width="1"></div><div class=lh><a href="http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-0&fd=R&url=http://www.the-press-news.com/news/article/4465691&cid=0&ei=kU8bSfC6CaaowAGJlfXKAw&usg=AFQjCNGbIcg5QVqQFt7IUkkYf2lU10qCLw">Teen wins photo contest while hiking <b>Appalachian Trail</b></a><br><font size=-1><font color=#6f6f6f>Press News, OH -</font> <nobr>21 minutes ago</nobr></font><br><font size=-1>Aaron Warrick won The Press-News photo contest with this photo, taken in front of a mural in Duncannon, Pa., along the <b>Appalachian Trail</b>. <b>...</b></font></div></font></td></tr></table>
More... (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/0-0&fd=R&url=http://www.the-press-news.com/news/article/4465691&cid=0&ei=kU8bSfC6CaaowAGJlfXKAw&usg=AFQjCNGbIcg5QVqQFt7IUkkYf2lU10qCLw)
We finally have a name for the "Cubby 08" carvings on all the shelters in Maine. Who wants to lead the posse to give this guy a good beating.
Lone Wolf
11-12-2008, 18:08
why? he didn't hurt anything
why? he didn't hurt anything
LOne Wolf, had you worked seriously over the years maintaining the trail, I doubt you would have made that comment.
Regardless, this is what someone else commented:
Posted by Grizzly Bear:
"This kid vandalized almost every trail shelter in the state of Maine. He is no better than a street thug spray painting on the sides of bridges. You would think an Eagle Scout would have more respect for the trail, maintainers."
Weary
I havent worked seriously but honestly i dont seem the harm in that at all. I enjoy reading stuff like that. And he is definitely no where close being as bad "street thug". Some people need to take there chill pills.
I havent worked seriously but honestly i dont seem the harm in that at all. I enjoy reading stuff like that. And he is definitely no where close being as bad "street thug". Some people need to take there chill pills.
I haven't worked on the trail seriously but i dont see the harm in what he did. I enjoy reading stuff like that. He is definitely no where close to being as bad as a "street thug". Some people just need to take their chill pills.
I just need to reread before i post.
john gault
11-12-2008, 21:05
He "vandalized" the shelters? Exactly what did he do? Sounds like that might be a little of an overstatment.
He "vandalized" the shelters? Exactly what did he do? Sounds like that might be a little of an overstatment.
Those who worked in the rain, mosquitoes, and black flies, for most of a spring and summer will think of it as vandalism.
Those who think it isn't vandalism should do the same some time.
Let me suggest, John, that you think about how you would feel if you had built yourself a house -- or had one built for you. How would you feel if you came home one day and found it sprayed with paint? Would you consider it just a friendly juvenile prank? Or would you quickly call the cops?
Weary
Hikerhead
11-12-2008, 21:11
Those who worked in the rain, mosquitoes, and black flies, for most of a spring and summer will think of it as vandalism.
Those who think it isn't vandalism should do the same some time.
Weary
How about a picture.
john gault
11-12-2008, 21:14
Those who worked in the rain, mosquitoes, and black flies, for most of a spring and summer will think of it as vandalism.
Those who think it isn't vandalism should do the same some time.
Let me suggest, John, that you think about how you would feel if you had built yourself a house -- or had one built for you. How would you feel if you came home one day and found it sprayed with paint? Would you consider it just a friendly juvenile prank? Or would you quickly call the cops?
Weary
What did he do?
Lone Wolf
11-12-2008, 21:39
"This kid vandalized almost every trail shelter in the state of Maine. He is no better than a street thug spray painting on the sides of bridges.
Weary
it's just a man-made wooden box that doesn't belong in the woods. no biggie
Lone Wolf
11-12-2008, 21:41
Those who worked in the rain, mosquitoes, and black flies, for most of a spring and summer will think of it as vandalism.
Those who think it isn't vandalism should do the same some time.
Let me suggest, John, that you think about how you would feel if you had built yourself a house -- or had one built for you. How would you feel if you came home one day and found it sprayed with paint? Would you consider it just a friendly juvenile prank? Or would you quickly call the cops?
Weary
it the choice you make if you choose to build one of these stupid boxes. quit whining and just maintain it
it's just a man-made wooden box that doesn't belong in the woods. no biggie
That's because, Lone Wolf, you don't do serious trail maintenance work, so you have no conception of how real maintainers feel about the work they do.
Weary
Lone Wolf
11-12-2008, 21:50
That's because, Lone Wolf, you don't do serious trail maintenance work, so you have no conception of how real maintainers feel about the work they do.
Weary
you have no idea what kind of "maintenance" i've done on the trail. i'm not a bragger, patch wearer or lookin for pats on the back. i could give 2 poos about shelters. they're not the trail. they don't belong
Wise Old Owl
11-12-2008, 21:51
We finally have a name for the "Cubby 08" carvings on all the shelters in Maine. Who wants to lead the posse to give this guy a good beating.
I give up, I hate folks carving into trees & stuff but what proof do you have and why do you feel the need to track him down?
I give up, I hate folks carving into trees & stuff but what proof do you have and why do you feel the need to track him down?I didn't take pictures, but just go hike Maine and you will see "Cubby 08" prominently carved in most of the shelters. After seeing it over and over it kind of pisses you off. It like seeing litter on the trail, but knowing that it was coming from the same person every time.
Lone Wolf
11-12-2008, 22:04
I didn't take pictures, but just go hike Maine and you will see "Cubby 08" prominently carved in most of the shelters. After seeing it over and over it kind of pisses you off.
don't stay in dirty boxes. pissed off problem solved :)
you have no idea what kind of "maintenance" i've done on the trail. i'm not a bragger, patch wearer or lookin for pats on the back. i could give 2 poos about shelters. they're not the trail. they don't belong
Well I garner opinions from the things you do say. You've told us the trail also is not "significant."
Weary
Lone Wolf
11-12-2008, 22:10
Well I garner opinions from the things you do say. You've told us the trail also is not "significant."
Weary
it isn't in the big photo
I give up, I hate folks carving into trees & stuff but what proof do you have and why do you feel the need to track him down?
As Henry Thoreau famously said, some circumstantial evidence is pretty convincing such as when you find a trout in the milk.
When a thru hiker with the trail name of "Cubby 08" gets written up in a newspaper, I think one can fairly assume that when messages proclaiming "Cubby 08" are found carved into the wood of shelters they were most likely carved by him -- thougn I suppose it could be a wannabe girl friend trailing along behind.
Weary
fancyfeet
11-12-2008, 22:51
Or a wannabe boyfriend?
Or a wannabe boyfriend?
Of course. If we put our minds to it, we probably could think of any number of people who might want to carve the kid's name into shelters.
But I tend to think, he did it himself. He probably didn't know any better. Like most hikers, he probably never bothered to read all those Leave No Trace messages.
Weary
Jeez weary, between the Thoreau references and the descriptions of the noble trail maintainers fighting the savage wilderness for the Good Of All Hikers I almost lost sight of the fact that some kid is being lynched here for tagging a shelter. Seriously......:rolleyes:
Somebody call a whaaaaambulance!
Of course. If we put our minds to it, we probably could think of any number of people who might want to carve the kid's name into shelters.
But I tend to think, he did it himself. He probably didn't know any better. Like most hikers, he probably never bothered to read all those Leave No Trace messages.
Weary
The individual named in the article was identified as an Eagle Scout. If that is true, I can't imagine him being unaware or carving up shelters
If someone else defaced the shelters with his name, Mr. Warrick should be made aware of that fact.
My suggestion is that anyone with first hand knowledge of the damage, and the extent of the damage, get in touch with the ATC and the MATC so that they might contact with Mr. Warrick and look to understand where the responsibility lies. Or doesn't lie. If Mr, Warrick asked for a 2,000 Miler patch, they may have his name on file.
This really needs to be followed up on by responsible organizations, not individuals. I would hope that individuals with direct knowledge of the damage push the ATC and MATC to do so.
TJ aka Teej
11-13-2008, 08:34
Cubby '08 hit the sign on Baxter Peak too.
Nice photo he won with though.
fiatspider2000
11-13-2008, 10:52
I never stayed in a shelter, I sleep well in my hammock. But every time I passed a shelter in northern Maine, there was a big name CUBBY 08 at almost every shelter.
Maine has a law that forbids billboards on the highways and you are able to see the unlittered landscape as you travel. It would be nice for hikers for hikers to show the same respect at the shelters.
Popeye
briarpatch
11-13-2008, 10:56
Nah, it was all just a silly misunderstanding. See, someone told him to sign the registers at each shelter. He misunderstood and thought he was supposed to sign each shelter, so he did. :rolleyes:
sherrill
11-13-2008, 11:01
Let me suggest, John, that you think about how you would feel if you had built yourself a house -- or had one built for you. How would you feel if you came home one day and found it sprayed with paint? Would you consider it just a friendly juvenile prank? Or would you quickly call the cops?
Weary
Appes and oranges.
Your house is your private property. Shelters are community.
Post friggin cops at shelters if you don't want them carved in or painted on. Otherwise, it's gonna happen.
This is similar to another recent thread debating the value or destructiveness of graffiti. No consensus was reached and I doubt one will be reached here.
I do not contribute to graffiti, but I can appreciate some of the good-taste humor. "Cubby 08" doesn't really fit what I would consider entertaining, but to each their own.
I guess my position is that Weary and the others who put the long hours in on building shelters should do themselves a favor and just expect that graffiti will be a part of it sooner rather than later. Kinda like a clean slate, somewhere to be "the first". It will save you all a lot of personal grief and anger if you just accept that graffiti will be a part of your new shelter. History seems to confirm this.
I'm not necessarily condoning it, just resigned to reality. It won't really do any good to become upset about it. For the most part, simple, good-taste (or even no taste - as long as it's not poor taste) graffiti does not hinder the benefits and most folk's enjoyment of the shelter.
By the way, I am a very active trail volunteer. Particularly on the NCT here in Michigan and Nationally. While we don't have but two shelters on the entire 4600 mile route, we do have many bridges and turnpike that are subject to graffiti. Give some folks a canvas and they will fill it. Our much bigger problem is the ATVs and Horses that literally destroy the puncheon, or drag it out of their way. That is real destruction as far as I'm concerned.
Jeez weary, between the Thoreau references and the descriptions of the noble trail maintainers fighting the savage wilderness for the Good Of All Hikers I almost lost sight of the fact that some kid is being lynched here for tagging a shelter. Seriously......:rolleyes:
Not a shelter but allegedly 15 shelters. Not one violation of the law, but 15 violations -- in Maine alone. We haven't heard as yet how many other shelters he may have defaced.
However, no one is lynching the kid. I'm just using it as a way to alert folks that there is a rarely used and even more rarely understood "Leave No Trace" ethic. In my opinion, he should be required to remove his vandalism -- or pay the cost of having someone else do it for him.
Weary
john gault
11-13-2008, 11:20
I'm not defending the guy, after all he's an artist and I generally hate artist. I just want to know what he did. I understand from these posts that he carved his name in 15 or so shelters. Anyone got pics of his "extraordinary" carvings?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
P.S. WEARY, for your health, I recommend you adopt an attitude similar to LYLE’S.<o:p></o:p>
....I guess my position is that Weary and the others who put the long hours in on building shelters .....
Actually, I personally have only put in a few hours on one shelter, and that only because I was overseer of the section and felt obligated to put in an appearance.
As I've mentioned several times in this and other forums, I would halt the building of new shelters and the replacement of those that deteriorate. Now that all responsible hikers need to carry their own tent, tarp or hammock, shelters are redundant. There are better uses of a maintainers time.
But mine is a distinctly minority view. Most hold to the old traditions. Besides, I recognize it is more fun to build something out of logs, than to cut back the brush when it begins to block a footpath.
My preference, however, doesn't excuse vandalism.
Weary
Maine has a law that forbids billboards on the highways and you are able to see the unlittered landscape as you travel. It would be nice for hikers for hikers to show the same respect at the shelters.
Popeye
Considerable amount of litter now, compared to @25 years ago.
Seems like more "tagging" as well.
With all the publicity around the Cubby 08 tags, has anyone spoken to the hiker in question?
I don't condone it, but I am glad I never did anything in my youth that I now regret.
P.S. WEARY, for your health, I recommend you adopt an attitude similar to LYLE’S.<o:p></o:p>
My health has managed to survive worst things than vandals. I just like to call attention from time to time to the total failure of the Leave No Trace message. I mean, the kid's an eagle scout, for God's sake.
But to prove my heart's in the right place, I'll even volunteer to remove his vandalism. For just $30 a day expenses, I'll start at Katahdin next July 1 and continue as far south as the carvings are found. With luck I'll reach Springer by the first snow. If not, there's always 2010.
Weary
Lone Wolf
11-13-2008, 11:44
I just like to call attention from time to time to the total failure of the Leave No Trace message.
that and ALDHA's "endangered services campaign"
Gray Blazer
11-13-2008, 11:59
He and other SOBO's were also identified as a 'rare bread' of hikers. Roman Meal?
With all the publicity around the Cubby 08 tags, has anyone spoken to the hiker in question?
I haven't seen his work. Perhaps if it really is exceptionally obnoxious and pervasive, the young man in question should be contacted, to at least let him know his carvings were offensive to many, and unfortunately may encourage others to try to "one-up" him. As a Scout, I hope he just did not think about how his actions may be a cause for future affect.
He's probably a pretty good kid in actuality, just a bit overzealous in his actions in this instance. Peer pressure (his hiking peers) can be used for good.
Serial 07
11-13-2008, 12:24
maybe i missed it, but has anyone correctly mentioned the apparently inherint desire humans have to leave their marks on walls, rocks, bridges, trees or caves? we've been doing it for thousands of years...there was one thread that happily talked about some farmer 300 years ago that was carving his name into rocks...so this kid's trying to leave his mark...bad, sure...egregious, probably not...i'm more disturbed by "spray paint on the rocks" than some shelter decoration...but even then, some would call it a tradition and that makes it okay...right? :-?
per lm's post, less hate...
maybe i missed it, but has anyone correctly mentioned the apparently inherint desire humans have to leave their marks on walls, rocks, bridges, trees or caves? we've been doing it for thousands of years...there was one thread that happily talked about some farmer 300 years ago that was carving his name into rocks...so this kid's trying to leave his mark...bad, sure...egregious, probably not...i'm more disturbed by "spray paint on the rocks" than some shelter decoration...but even then, some would call it a tradition and that makes it okay...right? :-?
per lm's post, less hate...
I know of at least one couple that was made to remove its graffiti when MATC complained to the National Park Service ranger.
So such carvings are not automatically made okay, despite the "tradition."
Weary
I work for the paper that posted this story, and I know the person in question. We are working to verify if he is who carved "Cubby 08" in the shelters.
RITBlake
11-13-2008, 14:07
that photo stinks
Folks have been carving stuff like names and dates on shelters ever since they got built . Didn't Daniel Boone carve his name on a tree? Did this kid use spray paint or write offensive stuff? If all he did was "carve" his name he probably thought it would be ok to do so. Why not? Other people do it. Sorry, I just don't understand why folks get upset over such petty stuff. I actually like reading some of the graffitti.
Folks have been carving stuff like names and dates on shelters ever since they got built . Didn't Daniel Boone carve his name on a tree? Did this kid use spray paint or write offensive stuff? If all he did was "carve" his name he probably thought it would be ok to do so. Why not? Other people do it. Sorry, I just don't understand why folks get upset over such petty stuff. I actually like reading some of the graffitti.
Maybe I posted to soon. Are these big carving on the outside of the shelter? A photo would be helpful.
They were huge carvings inside the shelter, usually on the back wall. Sorry, I was too disgusted to photograph them. But as 33whiskey said, they were annoying.
They were huge carvings inside the shelter, usually on the back wall. Sorry, I was too disgusted to photograph them. But as 33whiskey said, they were annoying.
I recognize the difference between a small carving of a name and date and vandalism. I would still like to see photo's, but it sounds like Cubby 08 may have some difficulties coming his way. Maybe an example needs to be made in this case.
john gault
11-13-2008, 15:01
Maybe I posted to soon. Are these big carving on the outside of the shelter? A photo would be helpful.
I've been asking the same question, but no one cares to answer. How big can they be? Not that it really matters, but seems like that would take a lot of time to carve "cubby 08" everyday in at least 15 lean-tos, especially for a thru-hiker.
garlic08
11-13-2008, 15:10
I didn't even stay in shelters, maybe ate a meal in a few of them, and "CUBBY 08" really annoyed me, too. Large, deeply carved letters, on the inside back wall just above the platform, even a non-shelter person couldn't miss it. Crossed the line, in my opinion. 20 minutes with a sharp knife, I bet.
saimyoji
11-13-2008, 15:10
that photo stinks
i agree.
Lone Wolf
11-13-2008, 15:38
I know of at least one couple that was made to remove its graffiti when MATC complained to the National Park Service ranger.
So such carvings are not automatically made okay, despite the "tradition."
Weary
it seems MATC complains a lot about a lot of things
Appes and oranges.
Your house is your private property. Shelters are community.
Post friggin cops at shelters if you don't want them carved in or painted on. Otherwise, it's gonna happen.
Perhaps. Are you saying that if your town office building, is vandalized it's okay, because it belongs to the community, not to a private group.
Twenty years ago I spent many months promoting the restoration of an 1881 town hall to modern standards. Our community is proud of what a score of voluneers, with the help of a paid crew, managed to accomplish. The building is used daily for town meetings and as an office for town officials. It sits on a beautiful waterfront site, serving the present generation, and highlighting a bit of our history as a community.
It certainly is community property. But if any one carved "Cubby 08" in large letters on its restored walls, I suspect we would trace down the culprit and demand both restitution and jail time.
Weary
I think it has more to do with respect than anything....
it seems MATC complains a lot about a lot of things
Not really a lot. In my 35 year experience with MATC, I can only think of three complaints, damage to a new shelter, a $100 million industrial power complex a mile from the trail, and blaze orange commercial signs.
Incidentally, all three complaints were successful. The graffiti was removed. The industrial complex was blocked. And the blaze orange signs no longer exist.
Weary
john gault
11-13-2008, 15:57
Perhaps. Are you saying that if your town office building, is vandalized it's okay, because it belongs to the community, not to a private group.
Twenty years ago I spent many months promoting the restoration of an 1881 town hall to modern standards. Our community is proud of what a score of voluneers, with the help of a paid crew, managed to accomplish. The building is used daily for town meetings and as an office for town officials. It sits on a beautiful waterfront site, serving the present generation, and highlighting a bit of our history as a community.
It certainly is community property. But if any one carved "Cubby 08" in large letters on its restored walls, I suspect we would trace down the culprit and demand both restitution and jail time.
Weary
Weary, you did not have <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/ /><st1:Street alt=</st1:Street><st1:address w:st="on">Sesame Street</st1:address> when you were growing up, so I'm going to cut you some slack. But here's a website so you can catch up with the rest of us http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/wrong.htm
Now sing along as you play:
One of These Things
(Is Not Like The Others)
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?
If you guessed this one is not like the others,
Then you're absolutely...right!
Weary, you did not have <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/ /><st1:Street alt=</st1:Street><st1:address w:st="on">Sesame Street</st1:address> when you were growing up, so I'm going to cut you some slack. But here's a website so you can catch up with the rest of us http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/wrong.htm]
I heard the song many times while my kids were growing up. The only difference between the two things is that one is located in the woods. Are you arguing that vandalism that no one watches you do is okay?
If so, what is all this chatter about Leave No Trace. Perhaps I haven't read the fine print. Is the real message, Leave No Trace if any one is watching?
Weary
Not a shelter but allegedly 15 shelters. Not one violation of the law, but 15 violations -- in Maine alone. We haven't heard as yet how many other shelters he may have defaced.
However, no one is lynching the kid. I'm just using it as a way to alert folks that there is a rarely used and even more rarely understood "Leave No Trace" ethic. In my opinion, he should be required to remove his vandalism -- or pay the cost of having someone else do it for him.
Weary
LNT is not a law and is mostly BS as anyone with a brain can recognize. From the cave walls in france to the coliseum in Rome to shelters in maine, people have been doing graffiti since they learned how to make a mark with a tool. Graffiti isn't going anywhere. Welcome to the human race. There will be graffiti. It's really probably one of the least of our flaws as a species. Simma down now!
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 16:18
Wow, what a crazy story.
If this is the guy who was defacing signs and shelters, then I hope he's prosecuted for it, fined for it, and I hope this gets widely publicized. The best way to put a stop to this sort of thing is for people to realize that actions can have consequences.
It's also an instructive story for folks who welcome publicity or press in re. to their hikes.
Be careful what you wish for....
Prosecuted? Don't be ridiculous.
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 16:21
How'd you feel if "decorations" and "artwork" appeared overnight on YOUR house? Or car?
Not so enthusiastic I bet.
I'm going out and doing some graffiti on a shelter the next chance I get just to get under jack and weary's skin. I'm serious, you guys have no respect for history.
How'd you feel if "decorations" and "artwork" appeared overnight on YOUR house? Or car?
Not so enthusiastic I bet.Different situation. And you know it.
A lovers heart with some intials in it on a firetower is not "[insert some politician's name in your mind] 666" on someone's garage door. There is now comparison, don't be silly.
This does not sound like a graffiti subject. It sounds like someone going way over the line and comitting vandalizm. Why shouldn't they be prosecuted. Should we now accept that this behavior is ok? Again, this is not about a small carving. It's not what some may consider "a traditional thing". It sounds like vandalism on the AT.
john gault
11-13-2008, 17:03
This does not sound like a graffiti subject. It sounds like someone going way over the line and comitting vandalizm. Why shouldn't they be prosecuted. Should we now accept that this behavior is ok? Again, this is not about a small carving. It's not what some may consider "a traditional thing". It sounds like vandalism on the AT.
This is all sticky stuff, but it seems to me that vandalism would be an act that would compromise the structural integrity of the shelter. Carving a name would be graffiti, regardless of how big.
A lot of people have "convicted" this guy without any proof. I'm not defending him, I'm just saying this all seems like a mob-mentality movement is growing. We've seen this before on WB, when will we learn?
sherrill
11-13-2008, 17:18
Perhaps. Are you saying that if your town office building, is vandalized it's okay, because it belongs to the community, not to a private group.
A town office building is in a zoned city limit, subject to local laws concerning vandalism as definined by city ordinance.
Other than local maintaining clubs, who has the authority to determine what vandalism is, and what the punishment is, regarding shelters?
Then who enforces it?
I think this was discussed without any reconciliation in another thread. It seems we all disagree on it.
Lone Wolf
11-13-2008, 17:21
Other than local maintaining clubs, who has the authority to determine what vandalism is, and what the punishment is, regarding shelters?
Then who enforces it?
the 1 lone ranger for the WHOLE AT will come and get ya! :D
Homer&Marje
11-13-2008, 17:22
LOne Wolf, had you worked seriously over the years maintaining the trail, I doubt you would have made that comment.
Regardless, this is what someone else commented:
Posted by Grizzly Bear:
"This kid vandalized almost every trail shelter in the state of Maine. He is no better than a street thug spray painting on the sides of bridges. You would think an Eagle Scout would have more respect for the trail, maintainers."
Weary
I know you didn't write it Weary, but Grizzly bear needs to look at what a real criminal is. Good god, it's a little bit of wood that won't deteriorate any faster because of a few carvings.
GET OVER IT PEOPLE. Congrats on your thru Cubby '08. Look forward to putting my name near yours if I get the chance:D
Piss Ant Moaners I tell ya. Kid won a photo contest and now he's got a lynch mob after him.
Homer&Marje
11-13-2008, 17:26
that photo stinks
And you are correct. That photo sucks. But if you run a marathon and you are the only runner, you've got a good shot at winning:D
The other two entries were one portraying a giant zit on a prom date and a 350 lb woman in a bikini.
Homer&Marje
11-13-2008, 17:37
Not a shelter but allegedly 15 shelters. Not one violation of the law, but 15 violations -- in Maine alone. We haven't heard as yet how many other shelters he may have defaced.
However, no one is lynching the kid. I'm just using it as a way to alert folks that there is a rarely used and even more rarely understood "Leave No Trace" ethic. In my opinion, he should be required to remove his vandalism -- or pay the cost of having someone else do it for him.
Weary
You misunderstand the concept of leave no trace. By building the shelter you are the one who created the impact. If the shelter YOU built was not there I HIGHLY DOUBT that Cubby 08 would have carved his name along all the trees on the AT.
YOU CAUSED THE HUMAN FOOTPRINT IF YOU BUILT A SHELTER.
NOT A PERSON WHO MARKED THEMSELVES AS BEING THERE.
It's baffling that this concept is even being argued.
what someone said before. Those who build shelters should automatically assume that pretty soon someone, sometime, and continuously will be quote un quote De- Facing it.
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 17:52
And how many shelters have YOU helped to build?
Details please.
Griffiti IS vandalism. Nobody gives a hoot about some small scratchs or markings that do not offend. And BTW, structural integrity has nothing to do with it. How much lower do you want to put the bar of appropriate behavior. If it is ok for "Cubby 08" to make these oversized carvings and deface the shelters in such a manner, is it ok for "Larry 09" to one up Cubby by making larger carvings? Has "Cubby 08" set a precedent?
john gault
11-13-2008, 18:18
Griffiti IS vandalism. Nobody gives a hoot about some small scratchs or markings that do not offend. And BTW, structural integrity has nothing to do with it. How much lower do you want to put the bar of appropriate behavior. If it is ok for "Cubby 08" to make these oversized carvings and deface the shelters in such a manner, is it ok for "Larry 09" to one up Cubby by making larger carvings? Has "Cubby 08" set a precedent?
When does small scratches become too big? But as I said before I still don't know what we're talking about. How big are these carvings? Can someone show pics with scale?
As for the graffiti vs. vandalism, yes that is subjective with respect to lean-tos.
TJ aka Teej
11-13-2008, 18:38
I think it has more to do with respect than anything....
Exactly.
Reminds me of a fellow named Diablows in '07...
Correct me if I am mistaken--
If these acts of vandalism occured on federal land, then this act of "damaging natural resources and facilities, as well as actions that cause unreasonable disturbances for National Forest visitors" violates federal law (36 CFR 261, link cited below) and the perpetrator is subject to a penalty of not more than $5,000 or 6 months imprisonment, or both.
http://www.fs.fed.us/lei/CFR_261_web/36cfr261_index.htm
My suggestion: Provide the appropriate authorities with the the information available and allow the legal system to do its job and move on to more wholesome discussion.
My personal opinion: I hope the judge gives the punk a few thousand hours of community service as a trail maintainer.
john gault
11-13-2008, 19:19
Yes, Respect does factor in, and has been in the back of my mind after reading the posts that describe the enormity of this carving.
With all this talk about cubby’s horrific vandalistic act, I became very concerned about the possibility that he vandalized someone else’s vandalism.
Have to agree with everyone who thinks this is vandalism.
I did a long hike in Michigan in Oct. Near an overlook, there is a large viewing deck that was built in to a crumbling riverbank, in order to further prevent erosion. The trail club who built the deck did a very nice job.
I was so disappointed by all the crap carved into the wood. The "F" word, So & So loves So & So, Blank was here, all that garbage. It was distracting. Obnoxious. I really didn't want to see it, and I was sad to see all the trail work defaced.
For those of you who argue that any trail work is defacement, why hike on the trail? I can't believe that you would condone someone undoing someone's trail work.
I'm going out and doing some graffiti on a shelter the next chance I get just to get under jack and weary's skin. I'm serious, you guys have no respect for history.
That would be pretty obnoxious. Good job.
Lone Wolf
11-13-2008, 19:38
You misunderstand the concept of leave no trace. By building the shelter you are the one who created the impact. If the shelter YOU built was not there I HIGHLY DOUBT that Cubby 08 would have carved his name along all the trees on the AT.
YOU CAUSED THE HUMAN FOOTPRINT IF YOU BUILT A SHELTER.
NOT A PERSON WHO MARKED THEMSELVES AS BEING THERE.
It's baffling that this concept is even being argued.
what someone said before. Those who build shelters should automatically assume that pretty soon someone, sometime, and continuously will be quote un quote De- Facing it.
hey. i agree
Building a trail in the first place causes human impact.
Should the trail be trashed just because it was constructed?
john gault
11-13-2008, 19:51
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?:eek:
:sun
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 20:02
I think the funniest thing about this is that folks that feel the need to "tag" shelters, signs, picnic tables, etc. are generally immature, and feel the need to mark things up in order to leave a record of their presence.
Well, it sure looks like he succeeded. :rolleyes:
He got himself noticed all right.
And when someone forwards this thread to Park Service police, he'll get noticed even more.
He got himself noticed all right.
That's another part of this ugly story that I find troubling.
How could one be so prolific without the acceptance and tacit approval of those hiking around him?
He couldn't.
Before reading this thread I would not have believed it possible.
Is this what HYOH has come to?
Homer&Marje
11-13-2008, 20:18
hey. i agree
I like shelters, I will stay in them, but seriously. The impact of a shelter takes up about 1/8 of an acre in the middle of the woods. multiply that times the number of shelters JUST on the AT and you have a huge plot of the forest that has been disturbed by "Trail Maintainers" the last people who can save us.
Next time, spend some more time getting rid of widow makers and dead falls if you think all of your time and energy is going to waste. And fix the steps at the Kay Wood Shelter. I don't want to have to bring the trail maintainers from that section to court because I broke an ankle due to a problem that had fore drawn knowledge.
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 20:22
Hey Homer, you've been asked before.
Just much maintenance have you done lately, and where? Tell us about how many hours you've volunteered to the Trail recently.
I'm willing to bet you ignore this post, too. :rolleyes:
Hikerhead
11-13-2008, 20:30
If we showed up at his house and carved our names on the front door, would that be OK?
Unnn geez..... I don't think pops would like that.
Like Spogatz said above...It's all about respect.
Eagle Scout my arse.
Homer&Marje
11-13-2008, 20:39
Hey Homer, you've been asked before.
Just much maintenance have you done lately, and where? Tell us about how many hours you've volunteered to the Trail recently.
I'm willing to bet you ignore this post, too. :rolleyes:
Actually. I didn't ignore your post. I was working. And I have actually never participated in a trail maintenance group. I would love to though, I've been looking into doing some up in the Whites next year and trying to get my little brother in law involved. Any good suggestions or numbers I can call?
I may not sign up, but every time I am on the trail I try and move what debris I can, (Larger stuff that makes you step over it) I sweep out every shelter with a broom (If provided) when I get there and before I leave. I try not to walk around muddy areas in order to keep the trail pristine and don't cut every low lying branch off a tree in sight.
So please just because people marking there place in time on a shelter wall since um, SHELTERS EXISTED, don't get all self righteous on me because your a "Better Person".
When I was growing up I had a wall in my bedroom that all my friends and family could sign, draw on, paint on, and leave there 2 cents. My parents loved it and participated in it. Agreeably they didn't think all of the stuff was appropriate, but they said, that is human nature.
I have moved out, I miss that wall. Maybe i'll start a new one.
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 20:49
Homer:
The wall in your bedroom was YOURS, and to write onit, or to let others do so, was your decision.
Trail facilities are public and belong to everyone; nobody has the right to deface them or cover them with graffitti.
Hope you can distinguish the difference here.
Oh, and if you're interested in Trail work in the White Mountains go to www.outdoors.org and check out the AMC's various opportunities for volunteers. They'll be very happy to have you.
That would be pretty obnoxious. Good job.It won't be, I promise. No one will even notice it amidst all the other graffiti around it. I'm just reacting to the fact that some single teenager should be singled out from the zillions of others who have done it over the years. Millennia, even. Once when I was a little but less mature I came to the GA/NC border sign...and saw that a friend had initialed it. As had many, many other people over the years. Well, I took out my little knife and carved my initials in it. At most a half inch square area of the sign defaced. Impulsive, and I wouldn't do it again. But I do think it'd be pretty cool if my grandkids found a heart with grandma and grandpa's initials in it carved on top of a firetower someday.
john gault
11-13-2008, 21:23
:datzSince, apparently no one has pics, can someone, at least, give me the dimensions of these carvings? Am I the only one that does not have a clear mental image of this act?
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 21:28
You're missing the point, Bfitz. Graffitti is a blight, and it leads to further blight. When a person finds a wall or a building that has been scrawled with initials and other stuff, he's encouraged and emboldened to add more stuff, and eventually, before long, someone will add something inappropriate or obscene. It might be cool for your grandkids to see your initials on a wall years from now. But would it be cool if alongside your initials, they saw "F*** you, buddy!!" right next to it? Because graffitti encourages further acts of disrespect, and not all of them are "cool."
In fact, none of them are.
:datzSince, apparently no one has pics, can someone, at least, give me the dimensions of these carvings? Am I the only one that does not have a clear mental image of this act?Unless it's really enormously outrageous compared to any other piece of graffiti typically seen on the AT what difference does it make?
BTW does anyone remember the one in the smokies with the bong behind the mountain spewing smoke clouds that said "welcome to the smokies!"? Someone should post a picture of that!
john gault
11-13-2008, 21:34
I just like details. I'm all about info, info, info...But you're right it probably doesn't matter. I think I'm really curious because I've been asking this question since the beginning and no one really seems to know the answer. Some have indicated that small scratching on the shelters are ok, but his big carving job is not, but they can't tell me how big it is...
Dances with Mice
11-13-2008, 21:40
Since, apparently no one has pics, can someone, at least, give me the dimensions of these carvings? Am I the only one that does not have a clear mental image of this act?
Cubby, a real cut up, has been discussed before. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39324&page=1)
Evidently he is not near sighted (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=678798&postcount=24).
You're missing the point, Bfitz. Graffitti is a blight, and it leads to further blight. When a person finds a wall or a building that has been scrawled with initials and other stuff, he's encouraged and emboldened to add more stuff, and eventually, before long, someone will add something inappropriate or obscene. It might be cool for your grandkids to see your initials on a wall years from now. But would it be cool if alongside your initials, they saw "F*** you, buddy!!" right next to it? Because graffitti encourages further acts of disrespect, and not all of them are "cool."
In fact, none of them are.
Ah, the old slippery slope argument. That one has led to much persecution throughout the centuries.
warraghiyagey
11-13-2008, 21:48
We finally have a name for the "Cubby 08" carvings on all the shelters in Maine. Who wants to lead the posse to give this guy a good beating.
Never got a chance to catch up to the little ****. . . but other hikers eventually straightened him out.
why? he didn't hurt anything
Y'all forget it's just one man's opinion - nothing mystical - just a dude that don't like shelters.
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 21:52
I dunno about "persecution", Bfitz.
But people that make the repeated willful decision to break the law risk PROSECUTION.
Nothing slippery about it, either. Just a fact.
It'll be interesting to see how this one works out.
But feeling as you do, Bfitz, especially as regards unjust persecutions, if this guy is arrested and fined for his "artwork", needless to say you'll be the first person to contribute to his defense fund, right?
Yeah, sure. :D
Serial 07
11-13-2008, 22:18
Trail facilities are public and belong to everyone; nobody has the right to deface them or cover them with graffitti.
so they belong to everybody and nobody all at the same time...using this logic, so do the roads...grama (or grampa) can drive however she wants and i just have to deal with it, right? i can't (well i could, but then i'm an...) pull up next to her and start yelling what i think about her driving technique...so i just have to accept that she, and her style, have every bit of a right to be on the roads as do i...
also, if they are public, why do you continuously ask people how much work they've done? i've never done any "sponsored" work, but i've done trail maintanence...we affectionitely called it "hardcore" and i've got pictures to prove it...i built a working spring water source with my own two hands, by myself...i've picked up trash...and is not just spreading good will, positivity and the overall appreciation for the trail and it's culture (and the woods in general) to other hikers part of trail maintanence...with that said, it's a freakin' shelter...
am i still the only one more disturbed by the class of (fill in year) going out to the woods to spary paint a gigantic rock with their "class pride" (can't remember the exact location, but it's in VA)...that to me is more worthy of discussion and attention...can we stop people from doing that?
Hikerhead
11-13-2008, 22:23
so they belong to everybody and nobody all at the same time...using this logic, so do the roads...grama (or grampa) can drive however she wants and i just have to deal with it, right? i can't (well i could, but then i'm an...) pull up next to her and start yelling what i think about her driving technique...so i just have to accept that she, and her style, have every bit of a right to be on the roads as do i...
also, if they are public, why do you continuously ask people how much work they've done? i've never done any "sponsored" work, but i've done trail maintanence...we affectionitely called it "hardcore" and i've got pictures to prove it...i built a working spring water source with my own two hands, by myself...i've picked up trash...and is not just spreading good will, positivity and the overall appreciation for the trail and it's culture (and the woods in general) to other hikers part of trail maintanence...with that said, it's a freakin' shelter...
am i still the only one more disturbed by the class of (fill in year) going out to the woods to spary paint a gigantic rock with their "class pride" (can't remember the exact location, but it's in VA)...that to me is more worthy of discussion and attention...can we stop people from doing that?
Here you go. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=22166&catid=member&imageuser=132
This discussion has been very enlightening. I now know why Leave No Trace is such a failed concept. Even those who profess a knowledge of LNT can't recognize an obvious violation.
And fix the steps at the Kay Wood Shelter. I don't want to have to bring the trail maintainers from that section to court because I broke an ankle due to a problem that had fore drawn knowledge.
I don't know you, but this troubles me. A hiker threatening to take maintainers into court because they haven't volunteered yet another 4 or 5 hours to do additional maintenance for them.
And I have actually never participated in a trail maintenance group.
Especially when you admit that you have never participated in any official maintenance yourself. The clubs don't keep how to volunteer a secret. Anyone who is seriously interested in giving something back would find out how to do so with about 5 minutes effort.
Not hiking around puddles, kicking a branch off the trail and sweeping out a shelter isn't maintenance. That's just common courtesy and trail ethics.
I don't normally like to call people out for not giving back, but if you go around threatening to take those who do give of their time and efforts to court because they haven't done enough for you, then it's definitely time for you to get out there. See what real trail building and maintenance is all about.
Off my soap box now.
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 22:30
1. Merely because an accomodation is a public one does not give the public
at large the right to do what they wish to it.
2. And if I ask someone how much maintenance they've done, it's because
the folks who tend to take this sort of thing lightly (i.e. damage of trailside
facilities such as shelters) are generally the folks who've done little or no
actual volunteer work on the Trail themselves. You see, people that have
busted their ass working on the Trail generally take a dim view of those
who neither respect this work nor those who've performed it.
Lone Wolf
11-13-2008, 22:37
Unless it's really enormously outrageous compared to any other piece of graffiti typically seen on the AT what difference does it make?
BTW does anyone remember the one in the smokies with the bong behind the mountain spewing smoke clouds that said "welcome to the smokies!"? Someone should post a picture of that!
i love the "420" graffiti and cannibis leaves left in shelters by scouts while the leaders are in tents drinking jim beam to feel like they're one with the woods :D
warraghiyagey
11-13-2008, 22:40
i love the "420" graffiti and cannibis leaves left in shelters by scouts while the leaders are in tents drinking jim beam to feel like they're one with the woods :D
It's actually frightening that Wolf brings up this same scenario that I've seen numerous times on the AT in the northeast. The scout leaders sure seem to look at these trips as an opportunity to get ****faced knowing there charges are likely safe-ish so far from the cities
Boy scout graffiti is my favorite. I've even seen names and troop numbers and dates (will not be disclosed here for obvious reasons...).
Now I'm imagining dad showing his son some graffiti he had made when he was a kid. Passing the torch, so to speak...
SassyWindsor
11-13-2008, 22:43
If "Cubby 08" shows up on the mural he took a picture of, he might be in trouble. Someone may even sign the mural on his behalf, that'll teach him.:eek:
A trail doesn't need shelters for someone to carve up. Just look at the
Foothills Trail of upstate SC. EVERY bridge along the 70+ miles have carvings in the handrails, and if the bridge doesn't have rails then in the foot-boards/logs. The cleanest trails, including buildings and facilities associated with a trail system, I've personally been on, have been in Canada and Australia, and I can't explain why the difference, maybe its the volume of usage.
My sampling of the AT thru the GSMNP has me hoping the shelters in the park Do Not reflect the condition or treatment of the remainder of shelters along the AT. Maybe I'll get to do the entire length one day and find out first hand.
Shelters help concentrate the graffiti in accordance with LNT principles.
warraghiyagey
11-13-2008, 22:50
huh?????
You know...a shelter is justified under LNT to concentrate the human impact to one area. Supposedly.
Lone Wolf
11-13-2008, 22:56
You know...a shelter is justified under LNT to concentrate the human impact to one area. Supposedly.
buncha bs :D
Here's what the Boy Scouts of America have to say:
"A good way to protect the backcountry is to remember that while you are there, you are a visitor. When you visit a friend you are always careful to leave that person's home just as you found it. You would never think of dropping litter on the carpet, chopping down trees in the yard, putting soap in the drinking water, or marking your name on the living room wall. When you visit the backcountry, the same courtesies apply. Leave everything just as you found it.
Hiking and camping without a trace are signs of an expert outdoorsman, and of a Scout or Scouter who cares for the environment. Travel lightly on the land.
The Principles of "Leave No Trace"
"Leave No Trace" is a nationally recognized outdoor skills and ethics education program. The Boy Scouts of America is committed to this program. The principles of Leave No Trace are not rules; they are guidelines to follow at all times.
The Leave No Trace principles might not seem important at first glance, but their value is apparent when considering the combined effects of millions of outdoor visitors. One poorly located campsite or campfire is of little significance, but thousands of such instances seriously degrade the outdoor experience for all. Leaving no trace is everyone's responsibility.
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 23:04
If this guy did what he is accused of, he's a disgrace to Scouting.
This is an Eagle who could use his wings clipped.
Serial 07
11-13-2008, 23:09
Here you go. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=22166&catid=member&imageuser=132
this is exactly what i'm talking about...if i were ever to get offended over something, this would be it...this sucks!
1. Merely because an accomodation is a public one does not give the public at large the right to do what they wish to it.
2. And if I ask someone how much maintenance they've done, it's because
the folks who tend to take this sort of thing lightly (i.e. damage of trailside
facilities such as shelters) are generally the folks who've done little or no
actual volunteer work on the Trail themselves. You see, people that have
busted their ass working on the Trail generally take a dim view of those
who neither respect this work nor those who've performed it.
1. i know what ur saying, laws are both good and bad...
2. respect is the key...but so is understanding, patience and acceptance...
Shelters help concentrate the graffiti in accordance with LNT principles.
i kinda sorta agree with this...
Hiking and camping without a trace are signs of an expert outdoorsman, and of a Scout or Scouter who cares for the environment. Travel lightly on the land.
As long as the trace is only noticeable by a creature that can read, I'm not that worried about it's impact.
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 23:14
Shelters help concentrate the graffitti?
Yeah, well along similar lines, county jails help concentrate criminals.
Gray Blazer
11-13-2008, 23:15
I scratched my initials in the Albert Mtn Tower in 04. They're still there.
Whiteblaze.net helps concentrate the....oh, never mind.....
Serial 07
11-13-2008, 23:26
Shelters help concentrate the graffitti?
Yeah, well along similar lines, county jails help concentrate criminals.
com'on jack...you know this is not the same thing...there is some truth to keeping people who like to burn trash, leave trash or generally disrespect LNT (people, the woods or the trail in general) in one place is a good thing...don't try and compare the incarceration of criminals (and non criminals) with shelter graffitti...i don't want to, but i'll repeat the theme song here if needed...
Flush2wice
11-13-2008, 23:29
I carved Jack Tarlin's name in a couple shelters recently.
Shelters help concentrate the graffiti in accordance with LNT principles.
So why did you carve your name into the GA/NC if this is true?
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2008, 23:33
Serial:
Vandalization of property, whether publicly owned or private, is a criminal act.
People who do this are subject to prosecution.
People that commit hundreds or thousands of dollars of damage are felons, and are not only subject to being arrested and fined, but on some occasions, they can be incarcerated.
Vandalism is a crime.
What is so difficult about this reality for some folks to acknowledge quite escapes me.
A summing up. Those who persist in defending the kid are not doing him any good. They just prolong the discussion over something the kid probably wishes fervently he had never done.
I'm beginning to feel sorry for the guy. He's just completed the trail, won a photo contest, and now is getting a barrage of complaints about something he did way back in Maine.
I'm not excusing what he did. But I suspect he realizes by now that it was a kinda dumb thing to do. And I doubt if his defenders rather silly comments will make him feel any better.
He surely realizes that his vandalism violates the LNT principles he learned enroute to Eagle status.
I'm going to try desperately not to say anything more. I hope others do the same.
Weary
Homer&Marje
11-13-2008, 23:50
Never got a chance to catch up to the little ****. . . but other hikers eventually straightened him out.
Y'all forget it's just one man's opinion - nothing mystical - just a dude that don't like shelters.
I like shelters. Why is my opinion the same?
Serial 07
11-13-2008, 23:52
Jack:
some crimes are not worth the punishment, even if they are crimes...have you ever drank a beer on the trail? ever sipped whiskey where you weren't supposed to? ever toked around a campfire? jack...com'on...i realize they are wrong (against the law), but so is speeding down the highway...some laws, which make crimes and criminals, are there to detur, but don't necessarily need to be enforced to their fullest extent...
by no means am i saying what he did is correct, or even acceptable, but let's keep this in perspective...hundreds of dollars worth of damage? no, probably not...disrespectful to the people who built (not necessarily sleep in) the shelter...sure...but as wolf says, you can't always pay attention to the sensitives...if people who built the shelter didn't realize that this was gonna happen, that's on them...thus, understanding, patience and acceptance seem to be more prudent here...
I'm going to try desperately not to say anything more. I hope others do the same.
I hope someone with firsthand knowledge of the damage encourages the MATC and ATC to look into this.
And then follow up appropriately.
One thing is for sure, the ATC shouldn't spend the $1.97 +/- it costs to mail anyone under such a cloud of suspicion a patch and such until there is some resolution on this.
Jack Tarlin
11-14-2008, 00:09
Serial:
On one hand, you clearly say that this guy's behavior is unacceptable.
Then, just a minute later, you say we should treat him with "understanding" and "acceptance".
Um, no.
If something is unacceptable, then that's exactly what it is.
And keep in mind, we're not talking about one foolish error, made in haste and then regretted. We're talking about REPEATED incidents. This guy obviously got a tremendous kick out of what he was doing, enjoyed doing it, and thought it was pretty cool.
If it were a one or two time thing, I might be more inclined to agree with you. But this clown was a repeat, and very happy repeat offender. Why we need to treat his actions with "understanding" escapes me.
When it comes to acceptance, here's what I think: People that do this sort of thing need to accept that what they did was wrong, and they need to be publicly admonished for it.
...don't try and compare the incarceration of criminals (and non criminals) with shelter graffitti...
It's kind of hard to "hike my hike" with Cubby's pervasive reminders. IMHO, this act far exceeds that of harmless "shelter graffitti".
Fortunately no one here has to make the comparison-- the law is quite clear on this subject. What is unclear is if the judge will smack this turd with a penalty of not more than $5,000 or 6 months imprisonment, or both.
So why did you carve your name into the GA/NC if this is true?Sort of....tongue in cheek...not that I'd even heard of LNT back then...
Serial:
On one hand, you clearly say that this guy's behavior is unacceptable.
Then, just a minute later, you say we should treat him with "understanding" and "acceptance".
Um, no.
If something is unacceptable, then that's exactly what it is.
And keep in mind, we're not talking about one foolish error, made in haste and then regretted. We're talking about REPEATED incidents. This guy obviously got a tremendous kick out of what he was doing, enjoyed doing it, and thought it was pretty cool.
If it were a one or two time thing, I might be more inclined to agree with you. But this clown was a repeat, and very happy repeat offender. Why we need to treat his actions with "understanding" escapes me.
When it comes to acceptance, here's what I think: People that do this sort of thing need to accept that what they did was wrong, and they need to be publicly admonished for it.
As for the public admonishing and taring and feathering of graffitists, you're going to be busy for a long time at that thankless task, there's a new teenager born every minute. As has been the case for a very long time. It's like farting against the wind, my friend.
Jack Tarlin
11-14-2008, 00:27
Bfitz:
I have plenty of friends who have teenagers.
None of them, to my knowledge, has committed repeat acts of vandalism.
I've hiked with plenty of young people, too.
And none of them acted this way.
So your generalization about teens is more than a little unfair.
This is not the sort of thing that most young people do, so your rationalization that all sorts of kids do this is simply wrong. And even if it wasn't wrong, it wouldn't remotely justify or explain away the behavior.
Serial 07
11-14-2008, 00:48
retro:
man, this shouldn't stop you from hiking your own hike..if the kid was following you down the trail singing show tunes, that would be another thing...it's a shelter, you CHOOSE to stay in them...you should be able to handle the wrong doings of some kid...we overlook a thousand more evils everyday, now we want to condemn the wrong doing of some kid in OUR woods or on OUR shelter...
jack:
using the same word twice was confusing, i see that...allow me to rephrase please...finding something incorrect is one thing...learning to deal with these things, though we may not like it, with understanding, patience and acceptance will decrease our growth of gray hair...that's my point...threads have gotten ill as of late...people looking down on others...it's unfortunate...but i'm new here...has anybody brought up a resonable solution? and incarcerating this kid is not the answer...
i feel like part of this issue is adults forgetting that they too were once kids...hands up if we've done something stupid (or illegal) that we shouldn't have and gotten away with (or haven't)...this doesn't justify, it just makes a point...
Homer&Marje
11-14-2008, 01:00
I just want to know. Did Graffiti or carvings affect how anyone slept in a shelter? Did it keep you up?
I'll repeat.
Piss. Ant. Moaners.
Bitch about real problems that our world is facing. Not just the fact that a few hours of labor from a few trail maintainers that put together a piece of wood that cost a few hundred dollars to satisfy their own need to "Protect" the outdoors.
You want to protect the outdoors, stop driving your car, stop going to movies, stop taking pictures with your camera, and for god sakes stop using your computer because your harming the environment in ways it will never recover from.
I'm not a saint in any of these categories. (Except I ride my bicycle to work) but seriously. Why, why, why.. the F do words on a piece of wood matter.
Massachusetts just de criminalized pot, so that means, it's not an illegal substance. So I can talk about it now right? Because not everything that's illegal "Everywhere" is "Important."
Like mute topics. Let's transfer this whole thread back to the Shelter Graffiti thread and continue on from there.
Piss. Ant. Moaners.
I could easily resolve this whole issue with two or three cans of spray paint, but there's my ultralight status to consider....
retro:
man, this shouldn't stop you from hiking your own hike..if the kid was following you down the trail singing show tunes, that would be another thing...
But, seriously, It's quite simple. People have the right to enjoy the trail without any of this bs, graffittiwise or verbal... in fact, there are laws in place to protects this. The trail is not a White Blaze forum. I suggest that anyone who chooses to engage in this topic make an effort to educate themselves. Learn the lyrics before belching out the show tunes-- but most importantly, make an effort to understand why such actions are inappropriate and illegal.
Weary is right. This type of liberalism is self-defeating and dangerous.
Pick a new topic and let the law do its job.
Give the kid a paint brush and let him slap some white blazes on trees. If I remember correctly, his home state had some of the worst marked sections of trail I'd encountered.
KingSharpie
11-14-2008, 08:50
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/9/7/3/6/tpn111108press-aaronwithpn.jpg
Homer&Marje
11-14-2008, 08:52
I could easily resolve this whole issue with two or three cans of spray paint, but there's my ultralight status to consider....
But, seriously, It's quite simple. People have the right to enjoy the trail without any of this bs, graffittiwise or verbal... in fact, there are laws in place to protects this. The trail is not a White Blaze forum. I suggest that anyone who chooses to engage in this topic make an effort to educate themselves. Learn the lyrics before belching out the show tunes-- but most importantly, make an effort to understand why such actions are inappropriate and illegal.
Weary is right. This type of liberalism is self-defeating and dangerous.
Pick a new topic and let the law do its job.
Give the kid a paint brush and let him slap some white blazes on trees. If I remember correctly, his home state had some of the worst marked sections of trail I'd encountered.
Do you not get the fact that spray paint is bad for the environment?
:datzToxins in the spray paint are in the woods forever because of the white blazes we so need, and pristine "Looking" shelters that you need. Spray paint aint gonna cover up a deep carved name in the wood. Might as well wait a year and let the wood brown itself.
I realllllllllly hate agreeing with LW but shelters are ugly boxes in the woods. Notably my need for aesthetics is not that great, so I will stay in the shelters with no problem.
Fact is beautiful trees and bushes of all sorts have been taken out of the ground in order to concentrate impact. Maybe nature is just getting back at the shelter builders by using "HUMAN NATURE" to state a point on the shelter wall loud and clear. Maybe it's a warning for some animals "BEWARE OF HUMANS" "WILL SHOOT TO KILL". Don't tell me i'm spouting off show tunes because I understand the very simple concept that we are not perfect and never will be.
Lone Wolf
11-14-2008, 08:55
the thing that bothers me most about the graffiti is the rampant misspelling
And KingSharpie takes the lead for highest classic post to post ratio.
the goat
11-14-2008, 10:04
Once when I was a little but less mature I came to the GA/NC border sign...and saw that a friend had initialed it. As had many, many other people over the years. Well, I took out my little knife and carved my initials in it. At most a half inch square area of the sign defaced. Impulsive, and I wouldn't do it again.
that's it. i'm on my way to your house with a can of spray paint to teach you a lesson!
Whiteblaze.net helps concentrate the....oh, never mind.....
Snort, snort.:D
Gray Blazer
11-14-2008, 10:12
Do you not get the fact that spray paint is bad for the environment?
:datzToxins in the spray paint are in the woods forever because of the white blazes we so need
The new ones are bio-degradable.
I hope Cubby 08 never reads this thread.
I'd hate for him to know that there are people who actually approve/condone his disrespectful behavior.
He's looking for his next adventure? Community service.
Lone Wolf
11-14-2008, 10:24
ain't nothin' wrong with makin' an ugly structure uglier
Has anyone thought about writing to the local paper that wrote the original story?
I am sure that enough folks communicate their feelings on the subject, the paper would forward those thoughts to Mr. Cubby.
However you feel about the subject, it would be better to put the energy into trying to tell mr. cubby how you feel rather debating it on here.
Just my two cents.
If the person who claimed to be from the newspaper is reading this (post #41), are you going to write a follow-up?
A followup is unlikely. The story ran because of the photo contest; details from his trip were just background info.
Alligator
11-14-2008, 10:50
The discussion of vandalism/graffiti is going well, but put down the pitchforks and douse the torches folks. It may or may not be the same person, so beyond notifying the appropriate authorities, let's not hunt the young man down and skewer him.
sheepdog
11-14-2008, 11:15
ain't nothin' wrong with makin' an ugly structure uglier
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:OYTvL0qqzBIJ::www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1523068/2/istockphoto_1523068_stirring_the_pot.jpg (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1523068/2/istockphoto_1523068_stirring_the_pot.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vhlinks.com/vbforums/brianiac-of-the-day-21-year-old-male-attempts-to-cash-check-for-360-billion-t43552.html%3Ft%3D43552&h=380&w=270&sz=22&tbnid=OYTvL0qqzBIJ::&tbnh=123&tbnw=87&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpicture%2Bstirring%2Bthe%2Bpot&hl=en&usg=__tye_4qKoqi-0ZRCHSWZVHVFKAVg=&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=1)
You are a pro.
Lone Wolf
11-14-2008, 11:20
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:OYTvL0qqzBIJ::www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1523068/2/istockphoto_1523068_stirring_the_pot.jpg (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1523068/2/istockphoto_1523068_stirring_the_pot.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vhlinks.com/vbforums/brianiac-of-the-day-21-year-old-male-attempts-to-cash-check-for-360-billion-t43552.html%3Ft%3D43552&h=380&w=270&sz=22&tbnid=OYTvL0qqzBIJ::&tbnh=123&tbnw=87&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpicture%2Bstirring%2Bthe%2Bpot&hl=en&usg=__tye_4qKoqi-0ZRCHSWZVHVFKAVg=&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=1)
You are a pro.
not really. i did entertain the thought of attending culinary art school at one time in my life though
Skidsteer
11-14-2008, 11:23
the Thing That Bothers Me Most About The Graffiti Is The Rampant Misspelling
:d That one made me laugh.
sheepdog
11-14-2008, 11:58
not Really. I Did Entertain The Thought Of Attending Culinary Art School At One Time In My Life Though
:d:d
saimyoji
11-14-2008, 12:06
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/9/7/3/6/tpn111108press-aaronwithpn.jpg
troll much?
saimyoji
11-14-2008, 12:08
the thing that bothers me most about the graffiti is the rampant misspelling
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12785&catid=member&orderby=title&direction=ASC&imageuser=3920&cutoffdate=-1
Bfitz:
I have plenty of friends who have teenagers.
None of them, to my knowledge, has committed repeat acts of vandalism.
I've hiked with plenty of young people, too.
And none of them acted this way.
So your generalization about teens is more than a little unfair.
This is not the sort of thing that most young people do, so your rationalization that all sorts of kids do this is simply wrong. And even if it wasn't wrong, it wouldn't remotely justify or explain away the behavior.
You're right. I was like 29 years old when I initialed my first trail sign. I'm also sure at least a third or more of the countless number of other graffitists in history also were not teenagers.
the thing that bothers me most about the graffiti is the rampant misspelling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8
Jack Tarlin
11-14-2008, 13:27
Good point, Bfitz. Some folks don't grow up.
Man, I'd love to be around when Bfitz or Homer discovered that someone had just tagged or sprayed their car, home, boat, or something THEY'D spent hours working on.
Not too hard to figure out who'd be pissing and moaning then. :rolleyes:
They're pretty casual about this when it happens out in the woods.
If it hapened where THEY live, they'd be yelling for the sheriff.
Serial 07
11-14-2008, 14:02
the thing that bothers me most about the graffiti is the rampant misspelling
the extra "t" is for terrible...
And KingSharpie takes the lead for highest classic post to post ratio.
now that's funny...
sherrill
11-14-2008, 14:24
Who owns the shelters?
Lone Wolf
11-14-2008, 14:24
U.S. government?
Dances with Mice
11-14-2008, 14:42
Who owns the shelters?Whoever's land they sit on. Who paid for them is a different question.
And he'll be back, again and again, long after you and I are dead and gone. Immortalis in graffiti. Yeah that's right, the latin word for graffiti is graffiti. It's an ancient human custom and should be respected as such.
Good point, Bfitz. Some folks don't grow up.Anyone who knows the both of us knows how true that is. Anyway, you said there was nothing wrong with being a teenager.
Man, I'd love to be around when Bfitz or Homer discovered that someone had just tagged or sprayed their car, home, boat, or something THEY'D spent hours working on.
Not too hard to figure out who'd be pissing and moaning then. :rolleyes:
They're pretty casual about this when it happens out in the woods.
If it hapened where THEY live, they'd be yelling for the sheriff.If it really were the same, everyone would take as much umbrage as you and Weary do. But you know it's not the same thing, so they don't. And most graffitists know the difference too. And as evidence of that I point to the fact that far more grafitti is found on firetowers and the like than on people's cars. If it's on your car you know it's your ex wife or something, and it says something a lot nastier than cubby 08.
This discussion has been very enlightening. I now know why Leave No Trace is such a failed concept. Even those who profess a knowledge of LNT can't recognize an obvious violation.
Maybe the solution is to sentence Cubby 08 to carving the LNT essentials in all of the shelters he defaced. I understand he has the ability to carve in a way to get maximum attention.
Jack Tarlin
11-14-2008, 15:10
Gimme a break, Bfitz. You went into a panic attack when I suggested putting a bumper sticker on your car. I can only imagine your horror, never mind outrage, if you found your car had been tagged or painted.
In short, this sort of "artwork" is OK, is perfectly justified, and value......as long as it's not placed on YOUR property.
Then all of a sudden it becomes a bad thing.
Gee, what's different? :D
Who owns the shelters?
Around 50 miles of the trail in Maine is on state land. The remaining 220 miles is owned by the US Government and managed by the National Park Service.
The only US Forest Service land in Maine straddles the Maine-New Hampshire border well to the east of the trail.
The shelters were almost all built by the Maine Appalachian Trail Club. Most are on NPS land. A few are on what Maine calls its "public reserved lands," mostly lands reserved when the state a century and a half ago sold the 6 million acres of public domain the state had inherited from Massachusettsin when Maine became a state in 1820.
Technically, I suppose MATC owns the shelters, though they were all built with the permission of either the National Park Service, or the state. I don't know the details of what was agreed to when the shelters were built.
MATC manages the trail on a day to day basis, but the eventual decisions are based on NPS rules. I know it was a park ranger that negotiated the resolution of the vandalism at the then new East Branch shelter a decade ago.
Weary
RITBlake
11-14-2008, 15:37
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/9/7/3/6/tpn111108press-aaronwithpn.jpg
You sir, just made my day.
Homer&Marje
11-14-2008, 17:04
What's different Jack, that you don't realize is that this has been done for thousands of years.
For chrissakes are you going to go to Egypt and spray paint over all of the hieroglyphics carved into stone?
Will you do me the favor of going to the Colosseum in Rome while your at it and spray paint over all of the wall carvings where the slaves and gladiators used to be held?
Please because there was this one carving of a bird and it was flying I think. And that was offensive to me. So spray paint over it.
While your on the project that whole ceiling of the Sisteen Chapel and track down the Michaelangelo guy through his local newspaper so we can fine him.
Do cave paintings offend you too? maybe we should get rid of those because a vegetarian could walk in, see a painting of a man with a spear ready to kill an animal and that would be extremely offensive.
Go ahead, spray paint my piece of **** car. It will add nicely to the v shaped bumper the scratched door and roof.
Homer&Marje
11-14-2008, 17:16
You cheesing?
No Compriendo
Seem a tad worked up. Jack is entitled to his opinion, I lean towards his opinion in this case.
Google cheesing. The Yahoo answers might brighten your day if nothing else.
Lone Wolf
11-14-2008, 17:23
Seem a tad worked up. Jack is entitled to his opinion, I lean towards his opinion in this case.
Google cheesing. The Yahoo answers might brighten your day if nothing else.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheesing
Homer&Marje
11-14-2008, 17:33
Good point, Bfitz. Some folks don't grow up.
Man, I'd love to be around when Bfitz or Homer discovered that someone had just tagged or sprayed their car, home, boat, or something THEY'D spent hours working on.
Not too hard to figure out who'd be pissing and moaning then. :rolleyes:
They're pretty casual about this when it happens out in the woods.
If it hapened where THEY live, they'd be yelling for the sheriff.
Actually I would wait in the back seat with a baseball bat and wait for them to do it again.
Seem a tad worked up. Jack is entitled to his opinion, I lean towards his opinion in this case.
Google cheesing. The Yahoo answers might brighten your day if nothing else.
He absolutely is entitled to his opinion. Apparently has taken liberties of mine and Bfitz's as well.
And I have two cats and will not be Cheesing anytime soon, course now I have to see that south park episode, sounds hilarious.
Gimme a break, Bfitz. You went into a panic attack when I suggested putting a bumper sticker on your car. I can only imagine your horror, never mind outrage, if you found your car had been tagged or painted.
In short, this sort of "artwork" is OK, is perfectly justified, and value......as long as it's not placed on YOUR property.
Then all of a sudden it becomes a bad thing.
Gee, what's different? :DWell, this discussion hasn't yet established precisely whose "property" shelters, firetowers, giant boulders in makeout spots and other such graffiti-prone receptacles actually are. I'm thinking it ultimately boils down to public property or "we the people", so in essence it is my property. Regardless, the difference is evident. I already stated here that if it was my car or something like that my reaction would be completely different. But the norm of "graffiti" is not for it to end up in places like the side of my house or my car. Your point hinges on your willful refusal to semantically separate some kind of attack on my car or home from a killroy-was-here carving on a wooden plank in the middle of the woods. My point hinges on making that distinction. You can continue to accuse me condoning vandalism to peoples' personal property by extension of my refusal to advocate prosecuting some kid who tagged an AT shelter, but I am not doing that.
The Old Fhart
11-16-2008, 12:09
Bfitz-"Well, this discussion hasn't yet established precisely whose "property" shelters, firetowers, giant boulders in makeout spots and other such graffiti-prone receptacles actually are. I'm thinking it ultimately boils down to public property or "we the people", so in essence it is my property."That has to be one of the ridiculous and inane bits of rationalization I've seen in a long time. No matter whose property it is is immaterial, if it isn't your PRIVATE property, you don't own it-period. Vandalism is defined as "willful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property", plain and simple. Using the rationale quoted above you could chisel your initials in the Lincoln Memorial or sign your name to the Declaration Of Independence because those items are public property that you "claim" you own.
Generally anyone older than 10 years old knows that vandalism of any kind is wrong and illegal. There are some, however, that just don't get it. Oh, and the reason that there is more graffiti on fire towers than cars is that the people who deface property don't want to be caught. If vandalism is so public spirited (as Bfitz claims) then why don't the vandals do it in front of police officers? The answer is simple, no matter what they say, they know it is illegal and don't want to pay for their crimes.
That has to be one of the ridiculous and inane bits of rationalization I've seen in a long time. No matter whose property it is is immaterial, if it isn't your PRIVATE property, you don't own it-period. Vandalism is defined as "willful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property", plain and simple. Using the rationale quoted above you could chisel your initials in the Lincoln Memorial or sign your name to the Declaration Of Independence because those items are public property that you "claim" you own.
Generally anyone older than 10 years old knows that vandalism of any kind is wrong and illegal. There are some, however, that just don't get it. Oh, and the reason that there is more graffiti on fire towers than cars is that the people who deface property don't want to be caught. If vandalism is so public spirited (as Bfitz claims) then why don't the vandals do it in front of police officers? The answer is simple, no matter what they say, they know it is illegal and don't want to pay for their crimes.
TOF has it exactly right.
Weary
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 12:29
That has to be one of the ridiculous and inane bits of rationalization I've seen in a long time. No matter whose property it is is immaterial, if it isn't your PRIVATE property, you don't own it-period. Vandalism is defined as "willful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property", plain and simple. Using the rationale quoted above you could chisel your initials in the Lincoln Memorial or sign your name to the Declaration Of Independence because those items are public property that you "claim" you own.
Generally anyone older than 10 years old knows that vandalism of any kind is wrong and illegal. There are some, however, that just don't get it. Oh, and the reason that there is more graffiti on fire towers than cars is that the people who deface property don't want to be caught. If vandalism is so public spirited (as Bfitz claims) then why don't the vandals do it in front of police officers? The answer is simple, no matter what they say, they know it is illegal and don't want to pay for their crimes.
It's like pissin' into the wind man. No offense but your not going to change thousands of years of humans will to leave their mark.
Sorry to let you in on it but we are human. We are the most invasive and destructive species on this planet. We stand alone with beavers as the only species who wish to change the landscape around us to suit our own purposes.
Writings on the wall of a shelter. Why can't people put this much energy and conviction into some real problems we face. You know why, because the real problems HAVE to be solved and the ones who bitch about the problems that WONT be solved have no desire to try, fail, and learn so you sit here playing tug of war endlessly.
Good luck. What's next, considering a post internet graffiti?
That has to be one of the ridiculous and inane bits of rationalization I've seen in a long time. No matter whose property it is is immaterial, if it isn't your PRIVATE property, you don't own it-period. Vandalism is defined as "willful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property", plain and simple. Using the rationale quoted above you could chisel your initials in the Lincoln Memorial or sign your name to the Declaration Of Independence because those items are public property that you "claim" you own.Actually, if you read carefully, my tongue in cheek analysis of who owns the shelters was followed by the word "regardless" meaning, "regardless of who the actual owner is...."
Generally anyone older than 10 years old knows that vandalism of any kind is wrong and illegal. There are some, however, that just don't get it. Oh, and the reason that there is more graffiti on fire towers than cars is that the people who deface property don't want to be caught. If vandalism is so public spirited (as Bfitz claims) then why don't the vandals do it in front of police officers? The answer is simple, no matter what they say, they know it is illegal and don't want to pay for their crimes.
TOF has it exactly right.
WearyHmmmm it seems all the old farts are of one mind on this issue.
One point, whether something is legal or not is irrelevant. We all break the law every day when we know we can get away with it.
Consequences are something else entirely and as Old Fhart says, if the consequences of putting my initials plus someone else's inside a heart carved on top of the hypothetical firetower were likely to be the same as spray painting a profanity on the side of weary's subaru or on the lincoln memorial we can be sure folks would be a lot less likely to do it. And the world would be a much more uptight and meaner place, and not perceptibly cleaner, on the grand scale. There is a difference between carving some little initials on a plank in the woods and spray-painting something obscene on the lincoln memorial. If you're too hard-headed to acknowledge that difference then be my guest. I assure you though, no matter how much sleep you lose over it, even if you convince me to pick up a torch and join you, graffiti isn't going anywhere before we do. It'll be around for the next millenia as it has been since the dawn of mankind.
For fun:
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Latin_Vulgar/Texts/Pompeii_Graffiti.html
http://goeurope.about.com/od/germany/ss/strasbourg_dom_4.htm
.....Why can't people put this much energy and conviction into some real problems we face. ....
A lot of us do put a lot of energy into real problems faced by the trail. White Blaze frowns on us saying much about solutions to the real problems facing society in general.
Weary www.matlt.org
The Old Fhart
11-16-2008, 13:42
Homer&Marje-"Writings on the wall of a shelter. Why can't people put this much energy and conviction into some real problems we face." Trying to justify a criminal act just because it doesn't affect you (or that you condone it) isn't a legal defense. Destruction or defacing property may not be a 'real' problem to those with no principles but to those who support and try to protect and maintain the trail it is a very real problem.
The question you should be asking yourself is why can't the people who spend all this time trying to deface or destroy the trail or the trail experience for others, put that much much energy and conviction into volunteering to maintain the trail. You continue to miss the point.
Bfitz-"There is a difference between carving some little initials on a plank in the woods and spray-painting something obscene on the lincoln memorial."Actually that is Lincoln Memorial. In that both are illegal and show a total lack of respect for the property of others, and disregard to the countless volunteers that maintain the A.T. or our national heritage, there is no difference.
If vandalism isn't a problem and totally harmless, as you both claim, then do it in front of a police officer. If you're not willing to do that then you either are blowhards or simply trolls. Either way it shows a total lack of character on your part. I don't lose any sleep over this but I am disappointed how someone who has hiked the trail and claims to love it could condone acts that help destroy it. I'm sure you don't lose any sleep over this either, which is truly sad.
Homer, i can't usually read your posts unless i'm not logged in. So, your last post came through when not logged in.
Anyway, I've tried seeing things from your point of view but i just can't seem to get my head that far up my a-hole.:D
Trying to justify a criminal act just because it doesn't affect you (or that you condone it) isn't a legal defense. Destruction or defacing property may not be a 'real' problem to those with no principles but to those who support and try to protect and maintain the trail it is a very real problem.
The question you should be asking yourself is why can't the people who spend all this time trying to deface or destroy the trail or the trail experience for others, put that much much energy and conviction into volunteering to maintain the trail. You continue to miss the point.
Actually that is Lincoln Memorial. In that both are illegal and show a total lack of respect for the property of others, and disregard to the countless volunteers that maintain the A.T. or our national heritage, there is no difference.
If vandalism isn't a problem and totally harmless, as you both claim, then do it in front of a police officer. If you're not willing to do that then you either are blowhards or simply trolls. Either way it shows a total lack of character on your part. I don't lose any sleep over this but I am disappointed how someone who has hiked the trail and claims to love it could condone acts that help destroy it. I'm sure you don't lose any sleep over this either, which is truly sad.It's like speeding, Old Fhart. Yeah, it's illegal, and we all slow down in the presence of a cop. Carving initials on a trail sign might be like the equivalent of going 65 miles an hour on a 55 mph highway during rush hour while spraypainting obscenities on the Lincoln memorial would be more like driving a hundred miles an hour down a residential street while kids are playing. Same crime technically, but one is extremely troubling while the other is hardly worth mentioning.
The Old Fhart
11-16-2008, 14:08
From the ATN March-April 2005
"Two West Virginia men have been charged with defacing Jefferson Rock with paint and graffiti in what officials call the worst case of vandalism in the history of the 60-year-old Harpers Ferry National Historical Park. A third man has been charged with hindering the police investigation of the Christmas-week incident.
The large shale rock is a historic landmark along the Appalachian Trail above the town of Harpers Ferry. It was named after President Thomas Jefferson, who visited the area in 1783 and praised its perch top views of the town, the confluence of the Potomac and Shenandoah rivers, and the Maryland and Virginia mountains beyond.
A federal grand jury in late January indicted Robert Owen Hopkins, Jr., 20, Steven Nicholas Hopkins, 18, and Nicholas Brian Vlachos, 22, on varying felony counts related to the vandalism. If convicted, the Hopkins brothers each face a maximum of five to fifteen years in prison and fines ranging up to $500,000. Vlachos, charged with hindering the investigation, faces a maximum of five years imprisonment and a fine of $125,000 if convicted.
All three gave addresses in a ridge top subdivision near the A.T. across the Shenandoah River from the overlook.
“Damaging a place of such significance as Jefferson Rock by spray-painting it is a tragedy visited not just on an object, but also on our history,” said U.S. Attorney Thomas E. Johnston, who is prosecuting the case. Johnston added that his office, the National Park Service, and the Harpers Ferry Police “do not take this felony offense lightly and are determined to bring individuals who commit these kinds of crimes to justice.”
Jefferson Rock was cordoned off for almost two months. Although it is still visible to Trail hikers and passersby, the top of the rock has been covered with canvas to prevent further, weather related damage.
Restoration efforts began almost immediately to remove much of the oil-based red paint that had been sprayed so thickly on the rock it completely covered the top and seeped into all the crevices. Park conservators were able to remove much of the thick paint from the surface so the rock now has a pink tint covering the top, according to Donald W. Campbell, park superintendent.
The crevices pose another problem, prompting conservators to work in a laboratory environment with a number of chemicals on other shale samples to see what works best. As the weather improves, workers will continue on-site restoration of the rock, Campbell said.
Previously, the rock had not been moved or altered since the late 1850s when it was propped up on sandstone pillars to allay fears by townspeople that it might fall down the adjacent cliff."
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 14:12
Homer, i can't usually read your posts unless i'm not logged in. So, your last post came through when not logged in.
Anyway, I've tried seeing things from your point of view but i just can't seem to get my head that far up my a-hole.:D
Yea. You've said that before. Glad to know your still trying though.
And TOF I get your point, I just don't agree that carvings in a shelter wall is or should be considered vandalism.
If someone is "clumsy" while cooking with their stove inside of a shelter like a moron and burns it down, that should be considered vandalism. The shelters will stand long after JW '83 and KAREN LOVES BOBBY '91 are long forgotten and no where near the trail. But we will always know they were there because they told us so. Shelter registers come and go every year. But some of the best sayings never leave the wall.
Just saying, there's like lynch mob status here over this kid and he does not deserve it. If payment is equal to the crime send him a bill for 2 cans of brown spray paint and leave him the hell alone.
The funny thing is, someone going sobo next year is probably gonna carve SUX under every Cubby 08 carving. HA....trail justice?:D
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 14:15
From the ATN March-April 2005
"Two West Virginia men have been charged with defacing Jefferson Rock with paint and graffiti in what officials call the worst case of vandalism in the history of the 60-year-old Harpers Ferry National Historical Park. A third man has been charged with hindering the police investigation of the Christmas-week incident.
The large shale rock is a historic landmark along the Appalachian Trail above the town of Harpers Ferry. It was named after President Thomas Jefferson, who visited the area in 1783 and praised its perch top views of the town, the confluence of the Potomac and Shenandoah rivers, and the Maryland and Virginia mountains beyond.
A federal grand jury in late January indicted Robert Owen Hopkins, Jr., 20, Steven Nicholas Hopkins, 18, and Nicholas Brian Vlachos, 22, on varying felony counts related to the vandalism. If convicted, the Hopkins brothers each face a maximum of five to fifteen years in prison and fines ranging up to $500,000. Vlachos, charged with hindering the investigation, faces a maximum of five years imprisonment and a fine of $125,000 if convicted.
All three gave addresses in a ridge top subdivision near the A.T. across the Shenandoah River from the overlook.
“Damaging a place of such significance as Jefferson Rock by spray-painting it is a tragedy visited not just on an object, but also on our history,” said U.S. Attorney Thomas E. Johnston, who is prosecuting the case. Johnston added that his office, the National Park Service, and the Harpers Ferry Police “do not take this felony offense lightly and are determined to bring individuals who commit these kinds of crimes to justice.”
Jefferson Rock was cordoned off for almost two months. Although it is still visible to Trail hikers and passersby, the top of the rock has been covered with canvas to prevent further, weather related damage.
Restoration efforts began almost immediately to remove much of the oil-based red paint that had been sprayed so thickly on the rock it completely covered the top and seeped into all the crevices. Park conservators were able to remove much of the thick paint from the surface so the rock now has a pink tint covering the top, according to Donald W. Campbell, park superintendent.
The crevices pose another problem, prompting conservators to work in a laboratory environment with a number of chemicals on other shale samples to see what works best. As the weather improves, workers will continue on-site restoration of the rock, Campbell said.
Previously, the rock had not been moved or altered since the late 1850s when it was propped up on sandstone pillars to allay fears by townspeople that it might fall down the adjacent cliff."
Probably do more damage to the rock removing the paint don't you think? I'll agree and Bfitz probably will too that this is one of the more "extreme" cases of vandalism. Carving your name next to 100 others, not so much.
warraghiyagey
11-16-2008, 14:20
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/9/7/3/6/tpn111108press-aaronwithpn.jpg
Now THERE'S an award winner.
Jack Tarlin
11-16-2008, 15:03
Homer:
You're entirely missing the point.
It is the ORIGINAL vandalism that encourages further vandalism.
You seem to think that if there are 100 scribblings at a place already, then the 101st won't really matter.
Well, there wouldn't be a hundred if people had refrained from defacing the structure in the first place.
But when one takes the initiative to disrepect a place or a structure, then others are encouraged to do likewise, until the place is so trashed that one adopts the attitude "Well what difference does one more make?"
If the first few people to vandalize a place had refrained from doing so, then we'd never get to a situation where there were 100 other defacements. But disrespect fosters more disrespect. It all starts with one idiot.
No Compriendo
No stuff in catholes! The total number of your posts and their length is way out of proportion to your contribution to the AT by your own admission. Maybe if you were to spend some time on AT maintenance the quality of your posts and their usefulness here would improve.
Thank you for calling to our attention how you came to learn writing on walls is acceptible behavior. I found that both informative and instructive.
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 15:19
Homer:
You're entirely missing the point.
It is the ORIGINAL vandalism that encourages further vandalism.
You seem to think that if there are 100 scribblings at a place already, then the 101st won't really matter.
Well, there wouldn't be a hundred if people had refrained from defacing the structure in the first place.
But when one takes the initiative to disrepect a place or a structure, then others are encouraged to do likewise, until the place is so trashed that one adopts the attitude "Well what difference does one more make?"
If the first few people to vandalize a place had refrained from doing so, then we'd never get to a situation where there were 100 other defacements. But disrespect fosters more disrespect. It all starts with one idiot.
I agree. So here's your solution. Privatize the parks and make sure that everyone has a steep membership fee. Then place guards at the beginnings of the trails to check permits, membership cards and equipment. Of course you'll have to have someone staying at each and every shelter, and probably a few along the trail to make sure no one sneaks in from another part of the woods.
Regular patrols will be necessary and steep fines for any inappropriate behavior. Of course there will have to be a rigorous screening process before you become a member, to make sure of course you are a middle aged white male belonging to a reputable church and have good standing in your local community. Reference letters will be necessary but that shouldn't be an inconvenience considering how many friends you have that will speak well on your behalf.
That way you'll be able to keep all of us filth ridden mongrels that obviously grew up in broken homes and have never been taught manners, respect or genuine empathy for anything significant in our entire friggin lives. THAT WAY you can keep all the irresponsible and self absorbed teenagers, college students and hoodlums off the trail that was only designed to accommodate like minds of yours.
Cant wait to join your club :rolleyes:
saimyoji
11-16-2008, 15:22
No stuff in catholes! The total number of your posts and their length is way out of proportion to your contribution to the AT by your own admission. Maybe if you were to spend some time on AT maintenance the quality of your posts and their usefulness here would improve.
so now we're required to be 'useful'? can't we just have some fun? :D
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 15:25
No stuff in catholes! The total number of your posts and their length is way out of proportion to your contribution to the AT by your own admission. Maybe if you were to spend some time on AT maintenance the quality of your posts and their usefulness here would improve.
Thank you for calling to our attention how you came to learn writing on walls is acceptible behavior. I found that both informative and instructive.
I have never written or carved anything inappropriate in or around a shelter, wall, house, car or otherwise.
Read a history book. Thousands of years of human interaction with things to carve in taught me that if done in taste and not in a destructive manner it CAN be appropriate. Sorry you disagree.
Jack Tarlin
11-16-2008, 15:25
Hey Homer:
I've lost track of how many times you've posted to this thread defending and minimizing criminal vandalism.
Yet in Post #168, above, you clearly said that if it was YOUR property that was vandalized, you'd be waiting with a baseball bat for the guy to try and do it again.
So basically, all you've proven here is how selfish you are. When it's YOUR property that's being disrespected, you threaten violence. When it's other people's property, or public property being trashed, you could care less.
That's really an attitude to be proud of.
so now we're required to be 'useful'? can't we just have some fun? :D
I would refer you to Homer's Red Green quote he used as his signature had he not substituted something new.
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 15:32
Hey Homer:
I've lost track of how many times you've posted to this thread defending and minimizing criminal vandalism.
Yet in Post #168, above, you clearly said that if it was YOUR property that was vandalized, you'd be waiting with a baseball bat for the guy to try and do it again.
So basically, all you've proven here is how selfish you are. When it's YOUR property that's being disrespected, you threaten violence. When it's other people's property, or public property being trashed, you could care less.
That's really an attitude to be proud of.
Thanks I agree. Because maybe if you started worrying about yourself more instead of notifying the local authorities about a kid you don't know and really don't care about, did he do anything to personally offend you or destroy any of your property? Then why do you care so much? Because you have nothing better to do. You would love for someone to vandalize your property just so you could bitch about it. Is that what you really want? To get him in trouble? Go ahead and call the cops on the kid and ruin his entire perception of the AT community.
saimyoji
11-16-2008, 15:34
I would refer you to Homer's Red Green quote he used as his signature had he not substituted something new.
oh. i have all those extra things disabled....signatures, avatars, etc....limitations of dialup. :o
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 15:34
Hey Homer:
I've lost track of how many times you've posted to this thread defending and minimizing criminal vandalism.
Yet in Post #168, above, you clearly said that if it was YOUR property that was vandalized, you'd be waiting with a baseball bat for the guy to try and do it again.
So basically, all you've proven here is how selfish you are. When it's YOUR property that's being disrespected, you threaten violence. When it's other people's property, or public property being trashed, you could care less.
That's really an attitude to be proud of.
17. But now I had to check the stats and catch up to your 18, but if you respond, that's 19 so I will have to respond if I want to win.:rolleyes: Keep up the good work:D
So, is anyone going to notify the Boy Scouts about this?
Panzer
I have never written or carved anything inappropriate in or around a shelter, wall, house, car or otherwise.
Your posts appear to imply you attribute to yourself the right and wisdom to judge what's appropriate. Furthermore, by implication, you have extended that right and wisdom to others. You seem to be indicating you believe it's quite proper for yourself and others to decide for themselves what's appropriate and everyone else should accept others doing as they see fit regardless of the laws, regulations or norms of behavior which apply.
Thousands of years ... taught me that if done in taste and not in a destructive manner it CAN be appropriate.
Not on the AT. Besides, tastes differ. You haven't been paying attention. We're not discussing modifying applicable laws and regulations, but rather discussing and communicating what's acceptible behavior on the AT to those who are not yet familiar with it.
warraghiyagey
11-16-2008, 16:34
so now we're required to be 'useful'? can't we just have some fun? :D
You would think.
Your posts appear to imply you attribute to yourself the right and wisdom to judge what's appropriate. Furthermore, by implication, you have extended that right and wisdom to others. You seem to be indicating you believe it's quite proper for yourself and others to decide for themselves what's appropriate and everyone else should accept others doing as they see fit regardless of the laws, regulations or norms of behavior which apply.
Not on the AT. Besides, tastes differ. You haven't been paying attention. We're not discussing modifying applicable laws and regulations, but rather discussing and communicating what's acceptible behavior on the AT to those who are not yet familiar with it.
He's a troller - when will everyone figure this out? Holy cow y'all're are being sucked in every time you respond to him. HellOHHHH folks.:confused:;):)
john gault
11-16-2008, 16:38
..
He's a troller - when will everyone figure this out. Holy cow you folks are being sucked in every time you respond to him. HellOHHHH folks.:confused:;):)
Maybe he's just REALLY lonely. No one will listen, much less talk, to him so he comes here where he has a captive audience.:D
He's a troller - when will everyone figure this out? Holy cow y'all're are being sucked in every time you respond to him.
Some think such posts should be deleted or countered, but constantly doing the former is probably as tiresome as the latter.
Let's keep this civil folks. I'm going to remind everyone that this was originally about a photo contest.
max patch
11-16-2008, 16:46
Not surprised at all that the guy who wished there was a beer party every night at every shelter also believes its alright to vandalize property.
I wonder why some people even go into the woods.
are of one mind on this issue.
I'm in.
Homer, i can't usually read your posts unless i'm not logged in. So, your last post came through when not logged in.
Anyway, I've tried seeing things from your point of view but i just can't seem to get my head that far up my a-hole.:D
Best laugh I've had in a gloomy stretch of weather.
Homer, just agree to disagree. The grey area does not exist in some situations.
Or, pass the cheese.
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 16:57
Maybe he's just REALLY lonely. No one will listen, much less talk, to him so he comes here where he has a captive audience.:D
But, but, I thought you'd be my friend john. I'm super lonely. I HIKE TO GET AWAY FROM PEOPLE. PEOPLE THAT BITCH ABOUT A KID THAT WON A PHOTO CONTEST ESPECIALLY. The real atrocity here is that that pathetic photograph won ANYTHING.
Vigilantism is illegal too for all those who are "Notifying the local Authorities"
If the legal system deems it fit to process the kid, so be it. Snitches have never been the most morally upstanding community in my HUMBLE opinion.
It's funny how far off base you are all from who I really am. I'm sorry, how many of you have met me?
so now we're required to be 'useful'? can't we just have some fun? :D
Point one of the member agreement says: "The overall goal of WhiteBlaze is to allow the open discussion of topics that a person interested in hiking may need to know. This includes the families of hikers, trail maintainers, trail angels, researchers, service providers, and any other individual interested in hiking. The goal is the positive exchange of information between users."
I would say it is okay to have fun while exchanging information that a person interested in hiking may need to know. I'm not sure fun for fun sake, qualifies, especially when it involves treating vandalism of facilities built by trail volunteers as just a funny joke.
Weary
But, but, I thought you'd be my friend john. I'm super lonely. I HIKE TO GET AWAY FROM PEOPLE. PEOPLE THAT BITCH ABOUT A KID THAT WON A PHOTO CONTEST ESPECIALLY. The real atrocity here is that that pathetic photograph won ANYTHING.
Vigilantism is illegal too for all those who are "Notifying the local Authorities"
If the legal system deems it fit to process the kid, so be it. Snitches have never been the most morally upstanding community in my HUMBLE opinion.
It's funny how far off base you are all from who I really am. I'm sorry, how many of you have met me?You really ought to read all of your posts together, in order, mr. baseball bat. I have a suggestion. State your opinion and move along. That way folks won't assume anything and you won't be left defending your numerous, sometimes contradictory statements about what you feel like is "not a big deal".
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 17:19
You really ought to read all of your posts together, in order, mr. baseball bat. I have a suggestion. State your opinion and move along. That way folks won't assume anything and you won't be left defending your numerous, sometimes contradictory statements about what you feel like is "not a big deal".
I know what I said, nor do I care what they assume. I was merely stating that I will protect my own property, like so many of the gun owners that adamently state their right to carry a gun wherever they feel necessary.
Protect and worry about yourself. That's what I was taught. I am simply protecting my right to defend someones actions whether or not they are morally deplorable to you. Don't let a thread that was started about a photo contest turn into a lynch mob after the kid.
Don't let a thread that was started about a photo contest turn into a lynch mob after the kid.That was addressed in post #144.
Dances with Mice
11-16-2008, 17:42
Vigilantism is illegal too for all those who are "Notifying the local Authorities".Dammit! I just bought this brand new Irony Meter and you just went and smoked it! I'm sure using it on that post also violates the warranty too since it only covers irony and not stupidity.
But I might have a chance to replace it if you'll explain how 'notifying local authorities' relates to vigilantism. Take it slow, don't rush and please don't forget the part about how its illegal too.
The thing that I find most disturbing about this thread is that carving your name into a shelter is not seen by all WB members as being wrong. The very issue of right vs wrong seems to be in dispute here.
Panzer
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 18:15
The thing that I find most disturbing about this thread is that carving your name into a shelter is not seen by all WB members as being wrong. The very issue of right vs wrong seems to be in dispute here.
Panzer
Seeing as how I have seen carvings that date to the late sixties and early 70's shouldn't we blame your generation for setting a bad example?
Seeing as how I have seen carvings that date to the late sixties and early 70's shouldn't we blame your generation for setting a bad example?
Well my point is that many here are saying there is no blame. It is not unanimous that something wrong has been done.
Panzer
Wise Old Owl
11-16-2008, 18:37
Seeing as how I have seen carvings that date to the late sixties and early 70's shouldn't we blame your generation for setting a bad example?
Well Homer, you must be looking at live trees, as much as I hate it. Folks have been doing it centuries. Graffiti is on the Pyramids, Pompeii, Rome - it was customary to carve your name on your seat at the Colosseum. I recently saw some the first american railroad tunnel right across the corner stone. Folks even did a few caves 100 k years ago.
Folks what are you going to do? - other than yelling at some idiot when you catch them - no respect.
Seeing as how I have seen carvings that date to the late sixties and early 70's shouldn't we blame your generation for setting a bad example?
Please answer your own question instead of using it to continue running round and round about this so called "non-issue" (your estimation).
[quote=Homer&Marje;725423] I HIKE TO GET AWAY FROM PEOPLE. PEOPLE THAT BITCH ABOUT A KID THAT WON A PHOTO CONTEST ESPECIALLY.
Sorry to say, but you'll have to hike with those of us that bitch about it being vandalism. Sorry.
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 19:28
Please answer your own question instead of using it to continue running round and round about this so called "non-issue" (your estimation).
Ok. No we should not blame your generation, because it's been done for THOUSANDS of years.
I don't believe vandalism is not a crime. I do believe that there are appropriate areas for one to express themselves through initial carving or drawings.
Dances with Mice
11-16-2008, 19:31
I do believe that there are appropriate areas for one to express themselves through initial carving or drawings.In a trailside shelter it's called THE REGISTER.
saimyoji
11-16-2008, 20:30
Point one of the member agreement says:......
yeah i read that too. only then i realized that many of those rules have been violated on this thread already, and that it probably wasn't a big deal if we tried to have a little fun, while agreeing on the fact that cubby's pic sucks. but, now thinking about it, both your post and mine are in violation of one of those TOS (guess which one) so neither of us should have responded to each other, but should have instead just reported the posts in question. did you read this whole post? will you report me? ;)
Father Dragon
11-16-2008, 21:23
"take only footprints, leave only pictures .... wait, thats not right!" ~unknown
Massachusetts just de criminalized pot, so that means, it's not an illegal substance. So I can talk about it now right? Because not everything that's illegal "Everywhere" is "Important." Not to hijack the thread, but pot is still illegal under federal law. Massachusetts state law aside, it can still be prosecuted under federal law. :D
saimyoji
11-16-2008, 21:42
its still illegal, just reduced in severity...as in a $100 fine and loss of stash, as opposed to a night in the clink and a court appearance.
yeah i read that too. only then i realized that many of those rules have been violated on this thread already, and that it probably wasn't a big deal if we tried to have a little fun, while agreeing on the fact that cubby's pic sucks. but, now thinking about it, both your post and mine are in violation of one of those TOS (guess which one) so neither of us should have responded to each other, but should have instead just reported the posts in question. did you read this whole post? will you report me? ;)
I don't have a clue about what you are talking about? What TOS have I violated -- well recently, anyway?
Weary
Homer&Marje
11-16-2008, 22:29
Not to hijack the thread, but pot is still illegal under federal law. Massachusetts state law aside, it can still be prosecuted under federal law. :D
i know.
C'mon folks, lets get back on track.
SurferNerd
11-16-2008, 22:54
Just adding my 2cents.. I called the Hallmark, and informed them of this information. They promised to investigate it, and possibly remove the reward from "Cubby" if the stories are true.
C'mon folks, lets get back on track.
Ed. You first need to tell us where the thread is at the moment. You, me, and many others have long since got us off commenting on how great it is that a thru hiker has won a photography prize -- a contest entered, incidentally, by just two contestants. The prize, to everyone's surpise, I'm sure, was won by a photo promoting the newspaper that offered the prize.
The issue at the moment, I think, involves whether shelters should be vandalized by thru hikers, or whether vandalizing shelters is just a millennia-old insignificant practice.
Weary www.matlt.org
Ed. You first need to tell us where the thread is at the moment. You, me, and many others have long since got us off commenting on how great it is that a thru hiker has won a photography prize -- a contest entered, incidentally, by just two contestants. The prize, to everyone's surpise, I'm sure, was won by a photo promoting the newspaper that offered the prize.
The issue at the moment, I think, involves whether shelters should be vandalized by thru hikers, or whether vandalizing shelters is just a millennia-old insignificant practice.
Weary www.matlt.org (http://www.matlt.org)I'd prefer that folks restricted their posts on this thread to the subject of the photo contest, the winning photo and the relevance of some claims talked about earlier in this thread. That, obviously, will be hard to control considering some folks have broadened the scope of discussion to include graffiti on AT shelters, signs and such. I'm trying to get a couple people to cut out the attempts to "sneak in" some extraneous junk and the posts that are about each other and not anything to do with the original subjects. I don't want to close this down but if I have to, so be it.
C'mon folks, lets get back on track.
We went off on a spur long ago and may have reached its end.
Ziggy Trek
11-16-2008, 23:49
We went off on a spur long ago and may have reached its end.
I am still messed up over learning what CHEESING means. Gross:eek:
I'd prefer that folks restricted their posts on this thread to the subject of the photo contest, the winning photo and the relevance of some claims talked about earlier in this thread. That, obviously, will be hard to control considering some folks have broadened the scope of discussion to include graffiti on AT shelters, signs and such. I'm trying to get a couple people to cut out the attempts to "sneak in" some extraneous junk and the posts that are about each other and not anything to do with the original subjects. I don't want to close this down but if I have to, so be it.
Ed: Almost no one as near as I can remember, has seriously commented on how great it is that a thru hiker has won a photo contest with only two contestants, one of which promoted the newspaper that had promoted the "contest."
The issue now seems to resolve around thru hikers, who picked up from the newspaper account and seemed elated that finally the identity a guy who vandalized shelters with giant carvings proclaiming "Cubby 08" has been identified."
That seems to me to be the issue that we have been debating -- including you. In my opinion, we are way beyond the point that WB can logically go back to the original topic.
But then, what do I know.
Weary
Just adding my 2cents.. I called the Hallmark, and informed them of this information. They promised to investigate it, and possibly remove the reward from "Cubby" if the stories are true.That sucks. I wish I (we) could have let this dead horse lie. He was just an example of millions of kids who use poor judgement every once in a while. And yes folks, I acknowledge it was poor judgement. Just didn't warrant the kind of reaction it was receiving here. Anyhow, a few hours of community service never hurt anyone whether they were guilty of anything or not. Losing the award on the other hand just seems mean. It wasn't a good citizen award anyway it was a photography award, and no matter who took it, maybe the best picture ought to still win. Anyway...whatever. I don't want to play any more. I'm out.
Homer&Marje
11-17-2008, 08:02
That sucks. I wish I (we) could have let this dead horse lie. He was just an example of millions of kids who use poor judgement every once in a while. And yes folks, I acknowledge it was poor judgement. Just didn't warrant the kind of reaction it was receiving here. Anyhow, a few hours of community service never hurt anyone whether they were guilty of anything or not. Losing the award on the other hand just seems mean. It wasn't a good citizen award anyway it was a photography award, and no matter who took it, maybe the best picture ought to still win. Anyway...whatever. I don't want to play any more. I'm out.
Ditto. Good luck Cubby, Sorry people took an interest in you. This is what happens, human nature takes the WORST of everyone and highlights it.
Good luck lynch mob.
Out.
Gray Blazer
11-17-2008, 09:12
I had the weather pic of the day for the Weather Channel a few years back.
They might want to take it away from me because I didn't bring my umbrella on a day when they said it was going to rain.
Ed. You first need to tell us where the thread is at the moment. You, me, and many others have long since got us off commenting on how great it is that a thru hiker has won a photography prize -- a contest entered, incidentally, by just two contestants. The prize, to everyone's surpise, I'm sure, was won by a photo promoting the newspaper that offered the prize.
The issue at the moment, I think, involves whether shelters should be vandalized by thru hikers, or whether vandalizing shelters is just a millennia-old insignificant practice.
Weary www.matlt.org (http://www.matlt.org)
You obviously have no knowledge of the contest. There were many more than two entrants - several dozen, at least - and the contest was "take the paper on vacation with you" - so ALL of the entrants contained the paper in it. That was the idea.
I realize this may be somewhat off-topic, but it's frustrating to me to see people spouting off about something which they know nothing about.
Lone Wolf
11-17-2008, 09:57
I realize this may be somewhat off-topic, but it's frustrating to me to see people spouting off about something which they know nothing about.
welcome to whiteblaze.net :cool: par for the course
saimyoji
11-17-2008, 10:34
Nobody knows more than I about what I know nothing about.
What? :rolleyes:
Alligator
11-17-2008, 10:41
Closed, time for the crowd to disperse.