View Full Version : Bios 2 Stove Potential Fire/Safety Hazard
Take a look at what is starting to occur with Minibulldesign Bios 2 stove. Reports are comming in to Tinny and seems like he's going to keep letting the stove be sold the way it's reacting to some that have purchased it.
Bios 2 Overflow on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anN0HU-9IKU)
No Belay
11-19-2008, 23:54
I bought one of tinny's pressurized stoves several years ago for almost $25. Biggest peice of SH1T I've ever used. Sent it back and he sent me one that was even worse. Thing was an uncontrolable flame thrower and fried almost every wind screen I put around it. I wouldn't use another Tinny BS if he paid me.
TaTonka
Father Dragon
11-20-2008, 02:12
http://minibulldesign.com/myadventure/
He certainly has something to say about it all.
that was retarded.
if a product's design is flawed it should be recalled and fixed
Camp Counselor
11-21-2008, 17:06
Take a look at what is starting to occur with Minibulldesign Bios 2 stove. Reports are comming in to Tinny and seems like he's going to keep letting the stove be sold the way it's reacting to some that have purchased it.
Zelph,
What would cause a stove to go out of control like that? I read what he said on his site about "old fuel", could that cause something like that???
I recently made some basic open and pressurized stoves out of soda cans but haven't tried the aluminum beer bottles yet. If the basic design premise is flawed I'd rather not go there.
that was retarded.
if a product's design is flawed it should be recalled and fixed
Agreed. He should have remained professional and addressed the issue(s) with the stove.
I have and use a MBD Trek, White Box ( which is similar to the BIOS 2 ) and Zelphs cat can stove ( the one with the small wick around the steel flashing ).
From looking at Zelph's video I can see that Tinnys Bios 2 has a different flame pattern then the white box stove. It appears that the Bios 2 has the same flame pattern as the MBD Trek stove ( a fully pressurized stove ).
I suspect that Tinny ( MBD ) is using his own recipe, on the BIOS 2, for jet size and number of jets. That may or may not be a problem. It is only an observation and only my humble opinion.
I know that if I over prime the TREK it will overheat and over vaporize the fuel and behave much like the BIOS 2 in zelph's video. It only happens if I don't prime the stove correctly.
I use and like all three stove's along with my vargo ti canister stove, and a primus omni fuel stove.
If you have problems, ask for your money back. Economic democracy is much more powerful then talking on the web.
Zelph,
What would cause a stove to go out of control like that? I read what he said on his site about "old fuel", could that cause something like that???
I recently made some basic open and pressurized stoves out of soda cans but haven't tried the aluminum beer bottles yet. If the basic design premise is flawed I'd rather not go there.
The video shows that the fuel is burning just fine. Lights easily, burns clean, nothing out of the ordinary happening with the fuel as claimed by Minibull. Grizzlyhiker said he made the video to show it to minibull so he could see what was taking place. Tiny said he had received emails from others with the same problem, his remedy is to tell them "bad fuel" That's a generic fix that lots of stove makers use(not me):), WBS Bill also used that when I tested his stove.
I speculate the problem to be in the compressing of the beer can in a very tight inside curl. The forming is under high pressure. If the inner wall is compressed too far it bottoms out at the bottom of the can and is put under stress. When heated the stress increases and the walls begin to touch each other and cause a capillary action that draws the fuel up and over into the jets. Along with the capillary action the fuel begins to get hotter and expands greatly, helping the liquid fuel to rise upward between the walls. It's definately a manufacturing process problem. He uses a manually operated arbor press to compress the stoves walls inward. It's hit and miss situation. One compression stroke can be crucial. I'll get cutaway view of the stove and show you how it butts up against the bottom on the inside of the stove.
The way the WBS is made is a more dependable way to make a beer bottle stove. Use pop rivets to make one, that's the way the WBS stove originally made.
HikingPA, take alook at this and let us know if it's retarded also.
Tinny being his everyday self. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf4qZdhGnkQ&eurl=http://www.minibulldesign.com/myadventure/index.php?blogid=1)
I agree that the stoves should be recalled before someone gets hurt. View the video again and watch for the flame that shoots out, near the end of the video. Grizzlyhiker mentions that also but it never gets addressed during the fiasco that takes place because of his so called cult members posting off topic comments.
.
Skidsteer
11-21-2008, 18:39
I read what he said on his site about "old fuel", could that cause something like that???
Nope. And that wasn't a fuel problem anyway. No way, no how. Period.
that's a link to the same video of this tinny guy, being retarded. seriously. someone who acts like that actually expects people to buy something from him? i could see if he maybe did something like that to his wife or a close friend - in an act of frustration or w/e. but to act like a retard, and actually post it to prove a point is ridiculous :/
Two Speed
11-21-2008, 19:30
Nope. And that wasn't a fuel problem anyway. No way, no how. Period.Gotta agree with that. "Old" fuel would adsorb some moisture some the atmosphere, which would reduce the BTU content.
Not consistent with a runaway stove syndrome.
Even if it was a stove that sensitive to fuel "age' would be an unending pain in the ass on the trail. Opening a fuel bottle in rainy weather could easily "contaminate" the fuel sufficiently to cause problems, up to and including burning you out of your shelter.
Beyond not good.
Camp Counselor
11-21-2008, 21:52
Zelph,
Thanks! Makes sense. I'd like to see that cut-away. The closest design to that that I've done so far used a 12oz Caribou Coffee brand Iced Coffee can. The top has a taper but no curve so when inserted the walls don't get too close. So far no problems. I did have a couple of other stove ideas that were subject to overheating and some pop and sputter but none have gone up in flames yet.
Skidsteer, Survivor Dave said to say "Hi".
Skidsteer
11-21-2008, 23:42
Skidsteer, Survivor Dave said to say "Hi".
How'd he end up in Mass?
Scratch that, I don't want to know.
Camp Counselor
11-22-2008, 00:51
How'd he end up in Mass?
Scratch that, I don't want to know.
He's still on GA, met him on line. He knew I was experimenting with stoves and told me to look up you and Zelph.
Here is a look at a crosss section of the can. Once the inside wall hits the bottom of the can it gets put under tension. Too much tension will deform and it will bend inward or to the center. It may also contain insulation in it acting like a wick to compound the problem of overflowing. When the stove gets hot the inner wall is being deformed, squeezing the walls together causing the fuel to rise upward.
"No Belay" has had 2 of tinny's "iso" stoves that were a flaming disaster of the worse kind. Tinny had to stop producing those. He should halt sales of the bios2 as well. Tinny knew of the "iso" problem and continued to have them for sale as he is doing with the bios2. Somebody may have gotten hurt with the "iso" and was the reason for the recall of those.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/sub%20one/th_ALUMINUMBOTTLE-2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/sub%20one/?action=view¤t=ALUMINUMBOTTLE-2.jpg)
I speculate the problem to be in the compressing of the beer can in a very tight inside curl. The forming is under high pressure. If the inner wall is compressed too far it bottoms out at the bottom of the can and is put under stress. When heated the stress increases and the walls begin to touch each other and cause a capillary action that draws the fuel up and over into the jets. Along with the capillary action the fuel begins to get hotter and expands greatly, helping the liquid fuel to rise upward between the walls. It's definately a manufacturing process problem. He uses a manually operated arbor press to compress the stoves walls inward. It's hit and miss situation. One compression stroke can be crucial. I'll get cutaway view of the stove and show you how it butts up against the bottom on the inside of the stove.
The way the WBS is made is a more dependable way to make a beer bottle stove. Use pop rivets to make one, that's the way the WBS stove originally made.
.[/quote]
I speculate the problem to be in the compressing of the beer can in a very tight inside curl. The forming is under high pressure. If the inner wall is compressed too far it bottoms out at the bottom of the can and is put under stress. When heated the stress increases and the walls begin to touch each other and cause a capillary action that draws the fuel up and over into the jets. Along with the capillary action the fuel begins to get hotter and expands greatly, helping the liquid fuel to rise upward between the walls. It's definately a manufacturing process problem. He uses a manually operated arbor press to compress the stoves walls inward. It's hit and miss situation. One compression stroke can be crucial. I'll get cutaway view of the stove and show you how it butts up against the bottom on the inside of the stove.
The way the WBS is made is a more dependable way to make a beer bottle stove. Use pop rivets to make one, that's the way the WBS stove originally made.
.[/quote]
Sorry for the double post, I blame it all on click-er-itus.
Zelph, sounds like you found the problem. I can see why Tinny would want to mfg his stoves using a press in this manner. One could produce the stove faster with less parts ( 1 ). The old white box has 5 parts and needs to be assembled in a semi precise manner.
Hopefully, Tinny will correct this situation after everyone wrings their emotions out of the situaton.
The video shows that the fuel is burning just fine. Lights easily, burns clean, nothing out of the ordinary happening with the fuel as claimed by Minibull. Grizzlyhiker said he made the video to show it to minibull so he could see what was taking place. Tiny said he had received emails from others with the same problem, his remedy is to tell them "bad fuel" That's a generic fix that lots of stove makers use(not me):), WBS Bill also used that when I tested his stove.
I speculate the problem to be in the compressing of the beer can in a very tight inside curl. The forming is under high pressure. If the inner wall is compressed too far it bottoms out at the bottom of the can and is put under stress. When heated the stress increases and the walls begin to touch each other and cause a capillary action that draws the fuel up and over into the jets. Along with the capillary action the fuel begins to get hotter and expands greatly, helping the liquid fuel to rise upward between the walls. It's definately a manufacturing process problem. He uses a manually operated arbor press to compress the stoves walls inward. It's hit and miss situation. One compression stroke can be crucial. I'll get cutaway view of the stove and show you how it butts up against the bottom on the inside of the stove.
The way the WBS is made is a more dependable way to make a beer bottle stove. Use pop rivets to make one, that's the way the WBS stove originally made.
HikingPA, take alook at this and let us know if it's retarded also.
Tinny being his everyday self. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf4qZdhGnkQ&eurl=http://www.minibulldesign.com/myadventure/index.php?blogid=1)
I agree that the stoves should be recalled before someone gets hurt. View the video again and watch for the flame that shoots out, near the end of the video. Grizzlyhiker mentions that also but it never gets addressed during the fiasco that takes place because of his so called cult members posting off topic comments.
Nope. And that wasn't a fuel problem anyway. No way, no how. Period.
I speculate the problem to be in the compressing of the beer can in a very tight inside curl. The forming is under high pressure. If the inner wall is compressed too far it bottoms out at the bottom of the can and is put under stress. When heated the stress increases and the walls begin to touch each other and cause a capillary action that draws the fuel up and over into the jets. Along with the capillary action the fuel begins to get hotter and expands greatly, helping the liquid fuel to rise upward between the walls. It's definately a manufacturing process problem. He uses a manually operated arbor press to compress the stoves walls inward. It's hit and miss situation. One compression stroke can be crucial. I'll get cutaway view of the stove and show you how it butts up against the bottom on the inside of the stove.
The way the WBS is made is a more dependable way to make a beer bottle stove. Use pop rivets to make one, that's the way the WBS stove originally made.
Defective design / production that has nothing to do with the fuel. It's not capillary action pushing the fuel out he jets; it's the high vapor velocity passing under the inner wall. Vents cut in the wall high above the liquid fuel line will solve the problem of over pressurization, but will have an adverse affect priming the stove.
Bottom line, the stove should not be sold. It's dangerous.
Defective design / production that has nothing to do with the fuel. It's not capillary action pushing the fuel out he jets; it's the high vapor velocity passing under the inner wall. Vents cut in the wall high above the liquid fuel line will solve the problem of over pressurization, but will have an adverse affect priming the stove.
Bottom line, the stove should not be sold. It's dangerous.
We can all speculate what is causing the problem. The problem is tinny's. It's not an old fuel problem, we know that. Tinny is doing a "cover Up" and were on to him. He has sold faulty product in the past as we have learned. We've been able to see dark side of his character. If you like what you see then you'll continue to buy from him. HYOH
Buyer Beware!!!!
Bumped for considerational review.
Looks like simple thermal runaway to me. The test was done indoors on an insulated surface.
The stove body is heated by reflection from the pan bottom and jet flame. The methanol, which I believe has the lowest vapor pressure of the alcohols, heats until it reaches a "super boil" condition, at which point the stove is out of control.
You wouldn't see this problem with a black-bottomed pan or if the stove was sitting on the concrete, on the ground, snow, etc.
To summarize: In my opinion, without casting slurs at the manufacturer, what you are seeing is very common in all presurized designs. You can get get something similar with a trangia burner.
bullseye
12-21-2008, 01:14
Regardless of the problem, the response is typical Tinny. If he sees a flaw pointed out in one of his products he does 2 things every time: 1)act like a jack*ss, and 2)act like it's not his problem, but user error. "Well, if you use fuel that's been sitting in a shelter for 6 months to a year.....", yeah right.
I'm not Tinny, so I'll have a nice day!
the following is a messege i sent him on youtube , oh i HOPE he does a video ranting his stupid mime act at me, i sent it under the subject line " i admire you" becuase lets face it noone will open up a messege marked " YOU ARE SCUM" or something of the like. Very true with me as well if your going to be a jerk to me atleast disguise the subject line so i just dont automaticly delete it. anywho here it is:
( I admire you)
wow that actually made you open this message
Tinny you just made me lose all respect for you.
You are supposed to be a business man,
professional,reserved,RESPECTFUL of your
customers. Your little mime act DID make me laugh,
not at Zelph or Grizzly but at you. I will not say that you
CAN please everyone on the planet. However saying
its bad FUEL taking no responsibility for your bad
craftsmanship?
pitiful, simply pitiful. How
arrogant do you have to be to believe that even
though a multi-million dollar ,computer controlled
production machine can make mistakes , That
somehow you and your set of hand tools are immune
to failure. The fact you offered to buy back the
stove or send another? I could literally not care
less. Your little "public" needs to know that its
more than grizzly having this problem.Zelph simply
stated facts you did not like.
So when you decide your done trying to garner
sympathy and when you finally decide to ACT your
age and act like a REAL business man, dont email
me because i will never buy from you, I dont care
how many will or WHO does (That is THEIR mistake
and THEIR problem), simply for the fact you just
managed to show your true colors here , which is
somewhere between yellow and pink im having a hard
time deciding which exactly. Besides my Whitebox
alcohol stove is a wonder and is far superior to
anything you have touched not to mention its
CHEAPER than your contraptions that fail so
horribly anyway.
OH i know how about you do
another mime video and do some creative editing of
this little message of mine! DO ME NEXT PLEASE!!
because its for certain that you wont take an
actual look at the PROBLEM and what must be done
to FIX IT. All you will do is sit in your little
chair at home ranting off how other people "cant
be pleased".
And let us not get started about how dangerous
your abomination "the thing" stove is.you are
really reaching for ideas when you ignore the
number ONE rule of alcohol stoves, you DONT add
more fuel to an either A, ALREADY BURNING stove or
B, to a HOT stove. Please pardon me if i compare
you to idiot children who throw gasoline on a live
fire because well...thats exactly what you did in
your video.
now what was i doing before i saw your video..oh thats right i was looking for an alcohol stove to buy for my shakedown hikes coming up..zelph always has great stuff i think ill ask what he can cook up for me.
was going to post it in text comments but i think posting it in a video response would be better
eh movie maker keeps cutting the text at odd spots but if anyone is willing to take the time and put it all in a video to go on youtube i wouldnt care
sclittlefield
12-23-2008, 23:05
Who else has this stove and has experienced the same phenomenon? It's hard to sort though the bias here. I've never bought any of his products, nor had any interaction with Tinny, I'm not on any side here. But I'd sure like to see a bit more than one person having trouble with a stove. I've had commercial stoves blow up... no recall, no whining either.
from my view the focus isnt really the defunct stove or the problem with it or what have you.. it was his immature response to try to garner sympathy at the cost of zelph and grizzly i mean im a bridal consultant so i deal with alot of whining over quite literaly nothing..but i do not mock the couple in thier face for whining like he tried to do with zelph.
i posted a video response but he has to approve it before its actually displayed soit wont show up but just incase someone is interested the note is in the video description on the side the video is for fun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH95Zz7Dp6M
This is the video that Captain is refering to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf4qZdhGnkQ&eurl=http://www.minibulldesign.com/myadventure/index.php?blogid=1
That is what Tinny's all about. Watch his mannerisms before he does his thing.
zelph why don't you just step up your production and put that jackass out of business?
zelph why don't you just step up your production and put that jackass out of business?
I have some good things in the works:banana
I have taken an interest in the beer bottle stove that GrizzlyHiker was using. In the interest of stove science I have created my own design of the beer bottle stove. As most of us know the WBS was the first design that came out and was then followed by tiny's copy of it that turns out to have a major problem. I have designed a beer bottle stove that surpasses the expectations of serious side jet stove users. The stove is soon to be put on YouTube and here to let everyone know that I still like being a Stovie.:D
I've got a huge batch of StarLytes in the works for the upcoming season. As most of you know, the StarLyte was born here on WB. Lots of variations being made by DIY'ers on YouTube.
I'll be going after a large chunk of tiny's business:banana
stargazer0311
12-24-2008, 21:48
Being that i am a petroleum systems engineer and mechanical engineer by trade id like to add my two cents for what its worth. Tinnys claim of "bad fuel"
is not possible as long as the alcohol is just alcohol you will only get a no burn or reduced burn situation due the the fact high proof alcohol is anhydrous and will absorb atmospheric moisture. Number two the problem as i see it with the bios 2 stove is simple, the fuel chamber becomes pressurized during operation and that is the premise of operation but, if there isnt a vent in the inner wall above fuel level the excess pressure forces the fuel into the outer wall and capillary action / pressure forces the fuel out the jets causing what i saw on the video. the solution is simple and tinnys reaction is unprofessional... i just thought id add my slant on the situation. thanx
Being that i am a petroleum systems engineer and mechanical engineer by trade id like to add my two cents for what its worth. Tinnys claim of "bad fuel"
is not possible as long as the alcohol is just alcohol you will only get a no burn or reduced burn situation due the the fact high proof alcohol is anhydrous and will absorb atmospheric moisture. Number two the problem as i see it with the bios 2 stove is simple, the fuel chamber becomes pressurized during operation and that is the premise of operation but, if there isnt a vent in the inner wall above fuel level the excess pressure forces the fuel into the outer wall and capillary action / pressure forces the fuel out the jets causing what i saw on the video. the solution is simple and tinnys reaction is unprofessional... i just thought id add my slant on the situation. thanx
tell that to Tinny in his mind you are somehow wrong even given your expertise in the area in question:D, he tries to hide behind " ill offer to send another stove or buy the current one back" you know i kind of feel like ordering like a thousand dollars of stuff from him just to tell him im unhappy and i want him to buy it all back
stargazer0311
12-25-2008, 13:13
well the bottom line remains that somebody could and will get hurt for 4 small holes that are lacking in the design how small you ask? 1/8" by my calculations would be enough to equalize the pressure and make the stove safe and it would impede priming performance and boil times slightly but, what is your safety worth? if i lost 1-2 minutes boil time for a safe reliable stove.... so be it
stargazer0311
12-25-2008, 13:50
Tinny loses the cardinal rule of design..... humans arent perfect we make design mistakes and that in itself isnt a shortcoming. those that think the are EXPERTS and totally above question then we start hurting people with bad design. He knows everything and is a legend in his own mind just watch his videos..... He makes me sick with his holier than thou approach to design
stargazer0311
12-25-2008, 17:24
I am currently on the market for a ultralight stove i may not know the best to buy but...I know minibulldesign isnt a option but, can you tell me a stove that is....?
I am currently on the market for a ultralight stove i may not know the best to buy but...I know minibulldesign isnt a option but, can you tell me a stove that is....?
I make all kinds alcohol stoves but do not sell. if you look at my video and you see one that youloke that i made i can help you make one there on you tube search [RJBURG ]
Skidsteer
12-25-2008, 19:05
I am currently on the market for a ultralight stove i may not know the best to buy but...I know minibulldesign isnt a option but, can you tell me a stove that is....?
Ultralight is kinda subjective. How light is ultralight to you? And what sort of cooking do you intend to do?
I am currently on the market for a ultralight stove i may not know the best to buy but...I know minibulldesign isnt a option but, can you tell me a stove that is....?
Starlyte hands down the best.
I am currently on the market for a ultralight stove i may not know the best to buy but...I know minibulldesign isnt a option but, can you tell me a stove that is....?
Skidsteer makes the awesome "PMS Stove" (http://www.bplite.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=214) and has some available "maybe":) It's ultralight and well made. If there is none in stock he'll be glad to make one up for you.
From experience I can tell you that there is such a thing as BAD ALCOHOL.
At home I store it in a particular spot in the laundry. For some reason when I look for it somehow it has moved to a different spot. So I asked my wife why that is so and she said to me "It must have turned bad, that is how it behaves once he goes bad. Nothing you can do about it"
So there is bad alcohol after all.
Franco
From experience I can tell you that there is such a thing as BAD ALCOHOL.
At home I store it in a particular spot in the laundry. For some reason when I look for it somehow it has moved to a different spot. So I asked my wife why that is so and she said to me "It must have turned bad, that is how it behaves once he goes bad. Nothing you can do about it"
So there is bad alcohol after all.
Franco
:banana I like it!!!! Good One:D
Zelph
I have photographic proof. This is the offending bottle sent to the garden shed to think things over.
Franco
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e389/Francophoto/odds/bad-alcohol.jpg
stargazer0311
12-26-2008, 20:07
There is bad fuel then BAD engineers that think they are above human mistakes.
There is bad fuel then BAD engineers that think they are above human mistakes.
Now we know the rest of the story.:)
Did your wife make the dunce cap or did you:D
I like her sense of humor:banana
yo zelph i want you to make something for me, bit of a custom job
stargazer0311
12-27-2008, 09:56
me too .... i need a great stove too...
Passionphish
12-27-2008, 10:04
It sounds like a cheering squad in here...
:0
It sounds like a cheering squad in here...
:0
no offense but...defense (SORRY im bored) but really your avatar looks like a chick, a very burly chick
me too .... i need a great stove too...
If you burn alcohol buy a starlyte, i have a box full of stoves made by me, save yourself some time and money, it is the best i have used.
if You Burn Alcohol Buy A Starlyte, I Have A Box Full Of Stoves Made By Me, Save Yourself Some Time And Money, It Is The Best I Have Used.
+1
We got pop can stoves and tealite stoves and wedding favor tin stoves and now we have beer bottle stoves.
I've been able to re-shape the aluminum beer bottle to create a one piece container that can be used as a stove. That's not new!!!! I have been able to improve upon the design as others have improved upon pop can stoves and the like. Cat stoves take on different shapes and forms. :D
I did get a cam corder video device for christmas and had to try it out today. New toy, takes a little patience getting used to editing and loading.
Here is a preview of the "Cobalt" stove:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/th_cobalt.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v228/obijiwa/?action=view¤t=cobalt.flv)
Passionphish
12-27-2008, 21:51
no offense but...defense (SORRY im bored) but really your avatar looks like a chick, a very burly chick
Yeah, but its still burly!
Take a look at what is starting to occur with Minibulldesign Bios 2 stove. Reports are comming in to Tinny and seems like he's going to keep letting the stove be sold the way it's reacting to some that have purchased it.
Bios 2 Overflow on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anN0HU-9IKU)
Update:
In Tinny's own little way, he has admitted that "Bad Fuel" was not the reason some his stoves were overflowing as we saw on GrizzlyHikers video.. He indicates that the stoves were over pressurizing in the central area of the stove due to the extreme accuracy in which the stoves are made. He has published a video on Youtube showing how he has corrected the problem. He now has named the stove bios7. don't quote me on the name, I may be one or two numbers off.
In the end, everything worked out well. He and his cult got all upset because I pointed out the fact it was not fuel related. Oh well!!!!
All is well!!!!!:)
He is calling it the Bios 2.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKn06wt0ixM