View Full Version : Mammoth Cave trail
CaptChaos
11-21-2008, 18:34
Hello Everyone:
Well, an article showed up in our newspaper here in Bowling Green, KY and it was titled:
"MAMMOTH CAVE NATIONAL PARK"
Heavy public input leads officials to go with alternative trial
There were over 3000 comments to the Park Superintendent Patrick Reed on the subject. I did not even know there was anything going on and I live about 35 min for the park.
The short of this is that they are allowing horses on one of the trails that was closed to horses due to the amount of damage that was being done to the trail.
Horses were banned from the trail in 2004 but will once again be allowed on the trail.
What I love about the Park Service is the following:
"A trail monitoring system also will be established, and in response to public comment, a trail stewardship program will be initiated.
I really hate to point this out to the Park Service but walk the trails and you might have some idea as to all of the damage that occurs. But I guess better late than never.
Maybe things will improve here since the following groups are involved with all of this: Bowling Green League of Bicycles, Mammoth Cave Equine Trail Riders Assoc, and the Mammoth Cave Chapter of the Sierra Club.
You all know my feelings about horses on the trails when they tear them up. I just hope it gets better and that this is not another thing that the Park Service will put in place and then let it fall apart.
Later
Link is below on the article:
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=12496BB05706DA08&p_docnum=1
RedneckRye
11-21-2008, 19:09
I went down to Mammoth Caves to hike and camp about 2 years ago. Since it is a national park I needed a backcountry permit. When I went to the ranger station / info desk / gift shop check out line to get one it took 4 different people to even know what I was talking about. Then it took 2 more people and a phone call for them to figure out how to issue me a permit. Seems they don't get alot of overnight backcountry travel there.
Over the course of 2 nights and 2+1/2 days I saw about 200 folks on horses, 6 dayhikers, and 2 other folks with backpacks. In every group of horse people I met, I got lectured by someone to "Step way to the side and don't move till we are past you". My thoughts were "Really, do I look like that big of an idiot? You think I want to dance with your beast of burden?".
Then a few riders later, someone inevitably commented something about "Why would you want to walk and carry your own stuff?". Since western Kentucky is horse country (Kentucky Derby and all, I kept hoping someone would offer me a mint julep) I kept my mouth shut.
I so wanted to say that I was down here so that I could step over horse $#!+ and watch fat, confused idiots "enjoy the wilderness" with a dozen other people, yet be back to the truck in time to get dinner and sleep inside.
That being said, hiking at Mammoth Cave is really mellow and flat, but not alot of water or other hikers. The trails are beat, beat, beat by horses, but it would be very enjoyable for a weekend trip if you could go in non-horse season. If there is such a time.
My last day there I slept not too far from my truck and then took 2 different cave tours. Awesome. Amazing. Incredible. The caves are why it ia a national park, not the trail system above them.
CaptChaos
11-21-2008, 19:27
RedneckRye:
I know what you mean.
I went two different times to the main office and asked for a backpacking permit and I never did get one. One time I was told that they did not know anything about it and the 2nd attempt I was told that there were no permits.
As I have said before I went to the campsite and waited and no one ever showed up so why was there no permits?
This has always been an issue at Mammoth Cave. For sure the horse riders rule the area but like you said since no one comes much to hike and backpack then I guess it's not an issue.
Now if 100's of you came here to backpack and hike in the backcountry then their might be a voice that the park super might listen to but I doubt it very much.
It does look like money is making it's way to the park now as a new visitors center is being built and I can tell you that it is decades past due.
I started coming to MCNP when I was 7 years old and I am 51 now, and what I always remember is that in the mens restroom one of the urinals never worked. For years I would come with my parents and the thing was never fixed. When I cam back in my late 20's it still did not work. It was for me a statement that the park exist but no one at the govt level really cared enough to get them the money that they needed to take care of the place.
A short story here: Years ago I was on a tour and a person asked where Sand Cave was where Floyd Collins died back in the 20's or 30's. The two rangers in charge of the tour talked for a second and then told the group that Sand Cave was not in this part of the State but somewhere else and that the death of Floyd Collins never occured here.
I was shocked. I could not contain myself and I asked the rangers if they lived or if they ever traveled to Cave City. They both told me yes so I had to break it to them that at the entrance to the park is the parking lot and short trail to Sand Cave where the major news event happened so many years ago.
Don't assume that the rangers who work at the park know the history because many do not. I meet a ranger once who had been at the park for 3 years and when I asked her about the work that was being done in the Snowball Dining Room and how it was going she told me that she had never seen it and did not know where it was. Given that the park is really about the caves under the ground I was surprised that a ranger did not know about one of the most famous spots in the cave system.
I have often said that it might be a good time to let the park service take care of the park and play policeman but that they might want to outsource the tours to outsiders who know the history so that correct information could be given to those who visit.
Just my view.
Later
RedneckRye
11-21-2008, 20:03
One of the things about the Park Service is that since it is Federal Government, it is all about seniority. As people within the park service gain seniority, they move to cooler and cooler parks. Sure, Mammoth Cave is a National Park, but it isn't a NATIONAL PARK. Yellowstone, Yosemite, Glacier, Denali. Those are NATIONAL PARKS.
Here in Ohio (my homeland) we have Cuyahoga Valley National Park, the only time I have been there is to go to Blossom Music Center (summertime home of the Cleveland Symphony) to see some concerts. Yeah, it is a National Park, but....
Most of the park service employees that are at places like these are only there till an opening at a NATIONAL PARK opens up. Not trying to imply anything about folks that work at less visited parks, but lots of the park service staff isn't "local".
I'm also not trying to say that places like these shouldn't be National Parks, but it is just a title.
The national forests just north and south of the Smokys are just as beautiful as the Smokys, but since they aren't the National Park, they get probably 5% of the traffic and the trails are in much better shape, there are less tourists and there are less rules and regulations.
I have to disagree with RedneckRye about Mammoth Cave not being a NATIONAL PARK. Mammoth Cave is the longest cave in the world with at present 372 miles of cave passages surveyed. This will easily go over 500 miles in the near future. The section of the park north of Green River is set aside for horse trails with the southern section for day hikes and bike trails. Mammoth Cave exists as a National Park because of the CAVE. To see its beauty, one must hike underground
if i were to hike in that region i would go to land between the lakes
SGT Rock
01-31-2009, 14:41
When I hiked there they had the system down pat. You go to the visitor center to get your "reservation". No permits were required to hike, but you did need a reservation with permit to stay at a camp. The idea was they didn't want some camps getting over-run. A couple of times I didn't get the camp I wanted because someone else already had it. It never ruined any of my hikes. But as I recall, you had to go in (no phone reservations) and they only did it at the visitor center at the entrance to the cavern.
I have to disagree with RedneckRye about Mammoth Cave not being a NATIONAL PARK. Mammoth Cave is the longest cave in the world with at present 372 miles of cave passages surveyed. This will easily go over 500 miles in the near future. The section of the park north of Green River is set aside for horse trails with the southern section for day hikes and bike trails. Mammoth Cave exists as a National Park because of the CAVE. To see its beauty, one must hike underground
Actually there are NO bike trails south of the Green River. There are a total of 11.9 miles of trail in the area, 10 of them starting from the main visitor center area. None of these trails allow for backcountry camping, horses or mountain bikes.
North of the river, horses are allowed everywhere except Sal Hollow Trail. Sal Hollow is bike trail and maintained exclusively by a mountain bike club out of Nashville. It is the best single track trail in the park. Bicycles are also allowed on Buffalo Trail and Turnhole Bend Trail south of Buffalo Trail. This is a total of 11.9 miles of trail. Of the 60+ miles of backcountry trail, horses are allowed on all but the 7.1 miles of Sal Hollow Trail. Now horses will have full access to all trails and bicycles none.
There is a new mountain bike trail planned east of Green River Ferry Road where only 2.5 miles of trail (White Oak Trail) currently exists. But that new trail is only planned not a reality. Put simply, unless you're a horsepacking outfitter, making a profit from rides in the park, the situation sucks. :mad:
Bearpaw, THX for that info.
I am at the park several times/year. The Park ecologist who is a friend of mine showed us the new bike trail which starts at the main campground and goes along the road to Park City and ends close to Diamond Caverns
i love backpacking at mammoth cave national park:cool:neo
flemdawg1
02-05-2009, 10:13
It might be afew weeks/months before anyone ccan use the trails due to recent ice storm.
http://www.nps.gov/maca/emercency_update.htm
I agree the horses have too much reign over in that park. Good Springs Loop Trail I hiked last summer was a muddy trench for about 5 of the total 7 miles.
SGT Rock
02-08-2009, 09:35
It might be afew weeks/months before anyone ccan use the trails due to recent ice storm.
http://www.nps.gov/maca/emercency_update.htm
I agree the horses have too much reign over in that park. Good Springs Loop Trail I hiked last summer was a muddy trench for about 5 of the total 7 miles.
That was my experience 10 years ago. Walking there in dry weather is fine, but any rain and it becomes like walking in a hog pen for much of the trail.
I am at the park several times/year. The Park ecologist who is a friend of mine showed us the new bike trail which starts at the main campground and goes along the road to Park City and ends close to Diamond Caverns
That's not the new bike trail. It's hard-packed gravel trail from the old Mammoth Cave Railroad, a good three bicycles wide, that's been there for some time. It' s a nice trail, but it's meant more for casual riders than anything technical.
The new trail I spoke of will be built in the backcountry, not parallell to the paved roads, somewhere east of Green River Ferry Road. It is to have a campsite at its end as well. Here's hoping it happens fairly quickly.
schnikel
08-30-2010, 18:46
My wife and I were planning a hike here over labor day weekend, Friday- Monday. I have been reading a lot about horses ruling the park and trails as well the majority of the trails being re-routed. Does anyone have any new/current info about the trail conditions in Mammoth Cave NP?
Is the trip worth it for a backpacking trip or should we look somewhere else?
Schnikel
schnikel
08-30-2010, 22:17
Or has anyone canoed down the Green River? Might this be a better trip? Just another idea I had.
Schnikel
sevensixtwo187
08-30-2010, 22:45
My wife and I were planning a hike here over labor day weekend, Friday- Monday. I have been reading a lot about horses ruling the park and trails as well the majority of the trails being re-routed. Does anyone have any new/current info about the trail conditions in Mammoth Cave NP?
Is the trip worth it for a backpacking trip or should we look somewhere else?
Schnikel
We just backpacked there in the spring. Although the cave is the main attraction, I think there is some real quality backpacking / hiking to be had up top. I admit that the trails north of the Green River are a bit beat up from the horses but I have been on much worse. That aside, we had a great time and the primitive campsites were in good shape. Quite a bit of solitude and some excellent views going into Second Creek. My only other "complaint" would be the lack of water sources at least in that area. Not much you can do about that!:D
This is probably off topic or in the wrong forum, but I saw on the Nashville news (http://thatismessedup.com/2010/08/30/horseback-riding-fees-in-davidson-co/) that the city is charging for horse riders to use the park trails in Nashvegas. I do not ride any more, but have to admit that the horses tear up the trail much more than either bikes or hikers, so they should have to pay or at least help in trail building/restoration.
sevensixtwo187
08-31-2010, 11:56
This is probably off topic or in the wrong forum, but I saw on the Nashville news (http://thatismessedup.com/2010/08/30/horseback-riding-fees-in-davidson-co/) that the city is charging for horse riders to use the park trails in Nashvegas. I do not ride any more, but have to admit that the horses tear up the trail much more than either bikes or hikers, so they should have to pay or at least help in trail building/restoration.
Now there is a great idea! :-?
My wife and I were planning a hike here over labor day weekend, Friday- Monday. I have been reading a lot about horses ruling the park and trails as well the majority of the trails being re-routed. Does anyone have any new/current info about the trail conditions in Mammoth Cave NP?
Is the trip worth it for a backpacking trip or should we look somewhere else?
Schnikel
If you stay off of Collie Ridge Trail, the horse traffic is not too awfully intense. You will run into some very muddy trail at stream crossings due to heavy horse traffic.
Or has anyone canoed down the Green River? Might this be a better trip? Just another idea I had.
Schnikel
I've canoed the Green a couple of times. This time of year, a canoe trip can be a lot of fun, though you'll get a good bit of traffic. You can hire an outfitter for a canoe and a shuttle in Brownsville on the west side of the park. You'll likely want to start at Dennison Ferry (there is no ferry there nowadays, but there is a canoe ramp to launch your boat).
From Dennison Ferry to Green River Ferry, the river is pretty shallow, with lots of gravel bars that can capsize your canoe, so make sure you use dry bags. The fun side is that it's easy to get out, right your boat, cool off, then paddle on.
Past Green River Ferry, the river gets wide and very deep. It is usually calm but easy traveling. Nearly all the better campsite are in this stretch. If you see a good one, grab it because they start to fill up fairly quickly. One of the best is the overhang on the south side of Turnhole Bend. We camped there in 2007.
Mostly likely you'll want to take out at Houchins Ferry, but some outfitters may prefer you to float the extra 2-3 miles to the bridge in Brownsville.
schnikel
08-31-2010, 21:42
Thanks for the posts.
Bearpaw, I was hoping for posts from you as you hve hiked all the trails and canoed the green river. I read all your TR's but your last scarred me on trail conditions.
I'm thinking of a combo of canoeing and day hikes around turnhole and perhaps another time around 3 springs or afterwards at houchins ferry.
How does this sound to those who have been there?
Schnikel
fiddlinjory
08-31-2010, 22:05
My sons and I did an overnight canoe trip below Green River Ferry last year. We had a great time and camped on Sand Island. It was a few hundred feet in diameter and the sand looked like it came from Myrtle Beach. We caught some rock bass for supper and walked the woods for a little adventure. River is very deep and wide in this section
Captain Blue
08-31-2010, 22:07
I went on a backpacking trip to Mammoth Cave National Park in January of this year. I was stunned to see the damage the horses had done to the trails. Very sad. Luckily all the mud was frozen or it would have been much worse. The backcountry campsites were in good condition. I would look for another place to backpack. I am not going back to Mammoth Cave for backpacking until they do something about the horse damage to the trails.
Thanks for the posts.
Bearpaw, I was hoping for posts from you as you hve hiked all the trails and canoed the green river. I read all your TR's but your last scarred me on trail conditions.
I'm thinking of a combo of canoeing and day hikes around turnhole and perhaps another time around 3 springs or afterwards at houchins ferry.
How does this sound to those who have been there?
Schnikel
It sounds like a good idea. IMO, the nicest trails at Mammoth Cave at the ones south of the Green River, where no horses or overnight camping are allowed. Be sure to hike the Cedar Sink Trail. It's 1.8 miles there and back and the overlook down to the sink is very neat. The Turnhole Bend Loop Trail is a nice 1/2 mile loop that takes you to the overlook at Turnhole Bend. The nice campsite under the massive overhang I mentioned is directly under the overlook.
And check out the day use trails around the Visitor Center and Historic Entrance. There are nice overlooks down to the Green River, a couple of barred over caves, and Mammoth Dome Sink is a great spot to check before taking the half day tour or historic tour. It's great to see this massive sinkhole above, then see the huge shaft it carved below.
Whatever you do, take at least one cave tour while there. My wife and I have taken almost all of the cave tours and each has an incredible story. If you've taken regular tours, look into the Violet City or Star Chamber Tours. You walk them with oil lanterns, and you can really begin to appreciate what pre-electric tourists experienced. Or check out the Wild Cave Tour. I believe it's 6 or 8 hours of actual crawling and slipping through some rough terrain. I can't take that one. You can only have a maximum 44 inch chest and mine is around 52 inches. But be SURE to spend some time inside the cave.
schnikel
09-02-2010, 22:09
Thanks guys for all the info. Just another showing of good, current info to be found on this site.
My wife and I have decided to drive down to Mammoth tomorrow. Saturday and Sunday we will canoe 22 miles thru the park taking our time and checking out cool spots and islands, fishing when we reach camp. Sunday afternoon and on Monday morning we are planning to taking a couple of cave tours.
Bearpaw, we will see how the caving tours go as my wife and I are both experienced cavers, myself for over 13yrs. This may have made us spoiled to "wild" caving, going where we want and pushing any holes we see. We actually are members in the same grotto as Captain Blue here in OH-IO! Hey man, small world, Huh?!
I'll return with a trip report. I'm looking forward to the trip.
Schnikel
schnikel
09-15-2010, 16:51
My wife and I opted for the "new entrance" cave tour on Labor day just before leaving to drive back home. The weekend went well. My wife and I canoed 20 miles down the Green River over 2 days sleeping on islands on the river. The highlights were the stars we saw. One of the best showings I have ever seen. The only better time was in Haleakala crater in Maui, HI.
Once we were off the river we went to the visitor's center to look around and schedule our cave tour for the next day. We also picked up a backcountry permit and hiked in about 3 miles to camp. The final day was the cave tour. It was nice and informative, but my wife and I both cave, myself for over 12 yrs in KY so we knew what we were getting ourselved into. I kept looking into holes wondering where they went. It was hard for me to not want to push some passages just to see where they went. Another highlight of the weekend was running into Rodger Bruckner. He is a HUGE reason why Mammoth Cave is the longest cave network in the world and an author of many books about the connections found in mammoth cave. Anyone interested should check them out.
schnikel
I'm glad the weekend went well for you. What campsite did you stay at overnight?
schnikel
09-15-2010, 20:53
I'm glad the weekend went well for you. What campsite did you stay at overnight?
We stayed at White Oak. It is up towards the NE corner of the park, kind of by itself. We chose it because b/c of close proximity to the visitor's center as our cave tour was scheduled at 11:30. It was one of about 3 that had a water source and was open for that night. It was a good site by the green river across from the Dennison ferry day use area. It was noisey until sunset then calmed down for a pleasent night's sleep. Nothing special but it was a free night sleeping in the woods, we didn't need anymore than that.
Schnikel
rambunny
09-15-2010, 20:56
Mammoth Cave was one of my fav's when i lived in Indiana. It has 72 miles of surface trails-across Green River is the nicest i think. Get a map, it's not marked well.Alot of it is dry.The cave is OK but the surface trails are great. Nice campground too!
aaronthebugbuffet
09-15-2010, 21:01
Camping on the river islands are awesome.
Rain Man
09-16-2010, 10:31
... my wife and I both cave, myself for over 12 yrs in KY so we knew what we were getting ourselved into. I kept looking into holes wondering where they went. It was hard for me to not want to push some passages just to see where they went. Another highlight of the weekend was running into Rodger Bruckner. He is a HUGE reason why Mammoth Cave is the longest cave network in the world and an author of many books about the connections found in mammoth cave.
WOW... awesome meeting Bruckner! I have his book(s) on Mammoth Cave, from the 70s. When I met my wife, she introduced me to caving. After the wedding, we lived in Oak Ridge, TN and belonged to the East Tennessee Grotto. We even spent a weekend as fairly-newly weds at Mammoth Cave. Stayed in the CCC cabins, which are still there, and took the "wild cave" tour. But job transfers and children took over our caving time for a couple of decades. Which got us now into backpacking. So, it's all good.
Anyway, I'm jealous you got to meet Bruckner! By the way, can you sing "The Ballad of Floyd Collins" from memory?!
:D
Rain:sunMan
.
schnikel
09-16-2010, 19:55
cool stories Rain Man. Talking to Roger was cool. I have met with him maybe 6 times as he lives somewhat close by here in ohio.
And to be honest, No, I couldn't sing the ballad of Floyd Collins. Another awesome story though.
Schnikel