View Full Version : Help me decide on a sleeping bag
I'm going through the process of lightening up my pack. I need a lighter bag.
First, a little about me and how I intend to use the bag.
I am 6 feet tall and weigh 210 pounds. My current bag is a North Face Blue Kazoo long that weighs 3 pounds. This is a 600 fp down bag. It is rated at either 15F or 20F my memory fails me. That goes with starting my second half century on the planet and suffering from CRS.
I am an assistant scoutmaster with a troop in Southern California. I am out year round in San Diego County, mountains and desert. I will be up in the Sierras in the summer.
I am either a cold sleeper or the Blue Kazoo is rated optimistically, because when the nights drop down to freezing or below, I need to put on a layer of thermal underwear to remain warm. One particularly cold night I spread my down vest over my torso inside the bag to stay warm.
I am trying to decide between the Western Mountaineering Megalite 30F bag or the WM Alpinlite 20F bag.
If I bought the Megalite I would use mostly for the summer trips in the Sierras. But I look at the Alpinlite and it has soo much more loft and I start to think I could use that all the time and I would be warm. The difference in weight is 8 ounces.
My questions are: Is the Alpinlite too warm for summers in the Sierras?
How might the Megalite compare in warmth to the Blue Kazoo?
I have tried on the various sized WM bags and I know that I need the larger sized Megalite in a long.
My next step is to take my bag down to the outfitters and compare the loft of the BK against the Megalite.
Enuf rambling. What say you all?
Welcome to WhiteBlaze :welcome
Panzer
Low Impact
12-03-2008, 21:29
Yo!
I picked up a SWEET bag this past Spring in preparation for my 2008 AT Thru-Hike - the Versalite by Western Mountaineering. 850+ Goose Fill down, and a temp rating to 10 Degrees. It never got that cold on the AT, but it got pretty close. I was always warm in this bag. No complaints - and for 32 onces - it's pretty light. It'll shave 1 lb off of your base weight.
Enjoy!
The Will
12-03-2008, 22:14
Personally, if I were buying a single sleeping bag than something in the 20 degree range would be more versatile.
By investing in the 20 degree bag you'd cover the low-end of the temperature extremes you'll be facing. A bag being too warm is easily remedied by unzipping it and using it as a quilt.
Lone Wolf
12-03-2008, 22:20
Yo!
I picked up a SWEET bag this past Spring in preparation for my 2008 AT Thru-Hike - the Versalite by Western Mountaineering. 850+ Goose Fill down, and a temp rating to 10 Degrees. It never got that cold on the AT, but it got pretty close. I was always warm in this bag. No complaints - and for 32 onces - it's pretty light. It'll shave 1 lb off of your base weight.
Enjoy!
screw the high dollar crap. get this http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___40066
taildragger
12-03-2008, 22:26
You'll be fine in the high sierras with a 20* in the summer. Just make sure that it has a full zip so you can vent (I got toasty in my 15* bag this summer, but I sleep warm and it was only a 1/2 zip)
screw the high dollar crap. get this http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___40066
I hope that's a joke.:-?
Lone Wolf
12-03-2008, 22:41
I hope that's a joke.:-?
no joke kid
Serial 07
12-03-2008, 22:48
maybe i'm missing something, but other than the fact that it's a bird bag (down), wolfs suggestion seems to be a good one...for the money of a WM bag, i could get a bag, tent and pack...and all sweet gear...if $ are no object, then spend away...
maybe i'm missing something, but other than the fact that it's a bird bag (down), wolfs suggestion seems to be a good one...for the money of a WM bag, i could get a bag, tent and pack...and all sweet gear...if $ are no object, then spend away...
He was asking about W.M. BAGS,so he is ready to spend the smart money once.
Save 200$ now,carry 1lb more,is the temp true?
Now save 1lb,true temp,and have a bag for 20 years...so yes his post was not in line.:-?
Panzer, thanks for the warm and prompt welcome :D
Low Impact, The Versalite looks like another possibility. The girth is a couple of inches smaller than the Alpinlite and I need all the room I can get.
Lone Wolf, I all ready have a low priced spread 20F down bag. I want to shave more than 10 ounces while I am at it.
Serial07, You're only missing that I all ready have a bag like the Campmor. I am trying to shave weight and there is enough money in the piggy bank for this.
no joke kid
I just looked at the JUNK YOU POSTED.
The Alpinlite with 850 fill and only 3oz less fill then YOUR 550 fill bag.SO how can you tell ANYONE...with your hiking smarts:-?that this is a true 20 d bag,plus throw away money on low price crap?
taildragger
12-04-2008, 00:42
I just looked at the JUNK YOU POSTED.
The Alpinlite with 850 fill and only 3oz less fill then YOUR 550 fill bag.SO how can you tell ANYONE...with your hiking smarts:-?that this is a true 20 d bag,plus throw away money on low price crap?
Cause if it keeps him warm down to 20* then its a 20* bag for him. Maybe he doesn't see the justification of spending so much on a bag that doesn't make a difference to him.
Sorry slow, but not everyone is a UL hiker, some just hike and be damned about what they hike with.
Cause if it keeps him warm down to 20* then its a 20* bag for him. Maybe he doesn't see the justification of spending so much on a bag that doesn't make a difference to him.
Sorry slow, but not everyone is a UL hiker, some just hike and be damned about what they hike with.
With all due ....he wants a W.M. BAG.He made a note that he has low end bags,and want's to upgrade.But lw has a equal bag for 130.:D
ASM,
The campmor bag is a 30 degree bag IMO. We have about 15 of them in our troop. Nice bags, cost effective and warm. Not 20 degree warm, but still good value, but not what you want. No problem there.
Good on you for wanting the best. Nothing wrong with that. I think you need to figure out how many times you will be challenging the lower rating of the bag when camping. You can layer up with the megalite, but layering up would weigh more than 8 ounces most likely, the difference in the bag weights. If you are mostly summer camping, I would bet the mega would be good enough.
Personally, I never even want to think about the possibility of being cold at night, lol. I would would do the alpinlite and be done. Still a weight savings over your current bag, can use as quilt, be warm all the time.
I am trying to decide between the Western Mountaineering Megalite 30F bag or the WM Alpinlite 20F bag.
My questions are: Is the Alpinlite too warm for summers in the Sierras?
How might the Megalite compare in warmth to the Blue Kazoo?
The Sierras can get COLD at night if you're up at elevation, even in the summer. I was there late July and one night it got down to 18*. I would suggest the 20* bag. And since it's a WM bag, it will most likely actually keep you warm down to at least 20*. I was using a WM Ultralite at the time, was sleeping out in the open under the stars, and just had the bag, and my thermals on and was moer than warm enough (except for my nose witch was sticking out of the bag).
And welcome to Whiteblaze!
Nobody is posting junk. You just have to do your own math.
There is nothing essentially untrue about the Campmor ratings. All bag ratings are conservative, even for 'cold sleepers'. Some are way more conservative than others. You have to do your own calculations, based on oz of fill x fill power, and the bags your comparing all need to fit.
For 20F outside, in a 6' model; you could get...
20F rated Campor bag with 19oz of 550fill and 36oz total for $120; 19x550= 10450
30F rated WM Megalite with 12oz of 850fill and 24oz total for $335; 12x850= 10200
The Megalite saves 12oz over the 20F Campmor, at a premium of $115.
Either would keep most people warm enough to sleep at 20F.
... but if you really want something for 0F, you should say so.
You didn't actually say what temperature you might be using it in.
Here is a comparison for thicker bags...
0F rated Campor bag with 27oz of 550fill and 53oz total for $150; 27x550= 14850
to match that you need 17.5oz of 850fill, all else being equal...
30F rated WM Sycamore with 17oz of 850fill and 32oz total for $345; 17x850= 14450
The Sycamore saves 21oz over the 0F Campmor, at a premium of $195.
I wouldn't go by bag ratings. I would get the length and girth you need, and the shell you need, and the style you want, and the fillpower x fillweight you need, and then decide how much weight is worth saving for how much.
Personally I like the Megalite feature with down on top than underneath.
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=ExtremeLite%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=19
You might need to make some adjustments for that for a fair comparison. For what it is to be used for a single blue foam pad is warm enough underneath. I would like to see this same feature in a winter bag, perhaps with 10oz of down under and 20oz of down over, and an extra blue foam pad for underneath me. I wouldn't complain about bag ratings and down quality though. I would just do your own math and take others subjective and objective opinions for what they are worth.
So the savings between Campmor and Western Mountaineering are about $10 per ounce.
The real no-brainers are when you save $100 on a backpack that is 3 pounds lighter. :)
If the Campmor loft ratings are true, the 5" of loft in the 20* bag should keep you warm at 20* but the 6" of loft in the 0* bag will in no way be warm enough at 0*. Most true 0* bags have at least 7" of loft.
If you have the money I whole heartedly recommend Western Mountaineering, but if you don't want to spend that much, Backcountrygear.com has Marmot Pinnacle's on sale for $240. They are 800 fill power, a little heavier than the WM bags, but should keep you warm down to thier rating.
If the Campmor loft ratings are true, the 5" of loft in the 20* bag should keep you warm at 20* but the 6" of loft in the 0* bag will in no way be warm enough at 0*. Most true 0* bags have at least 7" of loft.
If you have the money I whole heartedly recommend Western Mountaineering, but if you don't want to spend that much, Backcountrygear.com has Marmot Pinnacle's on sale for $240. They are 800 fill power, a little heavier than the WM bags, but should keep you warm down to thier rating.0* bags with 7" of loft will keep you warm way below 0*.
Here is a table, which is still conservative. I agree with being conservative, especially for below 0*. I just don't think adding inches of loft to your sleeping bag once its already thick enough is the way to go about it.
http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/sleeping-bag-temperature-ratings/
Temperature Inches of loft
30 degrees F 1.8 inches
10 degrees F 2.3 inches
0 degrees F 2.8 inches
-10 degrees F 3.2 inches
-20 degrees F 3.7 inches
-30 degrees F 4.2 inches
-40 degrees F 5.2 inches
That is the loft above you, so it suggest 5.6" total for 0 degree bag.
You can go colder than that with long wool underwear and such.
That table has some odd inconsistencies, which may be typos, but maybe not. You probably need as warm a bag for 30F as for 25F, because of the humidity and the freezing point. There is also a jump of a full inch from -30 to -40. Maybe because when you get out to go pee you get much colder and you need extra warmth to get warmed back up, not just stay warm. That should really be continuous though.
0.5" per 10degF is actually quite conservative though. Everyone gives off about the same kcal/hour per square meter when sleeping. The difference between cold sleepers and warm sleepers has more to do with tolerance to cold skin temperatures. Cold adapted sleepers can get the equivalent of about 0.5" out of their skin. So some folks might need an extra 0.25" or 0.5", but from any given starting point everyone needs about 0.5" for every 10 degF colder.
The original poster is primarily concerned with saving weight, so he should go with something with 800 or 850 or 900 fill power, and probably the lightest shell if he is in a tent. To reduce both weight and increase warmth for weight, he should get it just big enough to fit him comfortably. Extra room increases weight and reduces warmth. Finally, even though he is a cold sleeper, he should consider the lowest temperature he needs it for, and consider what clothing he will wear with it on those less frequent extreme nights, and then not get too many more inches of loft than he truly needs. All bag ratings of quality bags are very conservative, especially in the winter bags. I think a 0F bag is for when MOST of you nights are 0F, but you can go much lower than that, even if you are a 'cold sleeper'.
I think the real danger below 0F is the stuff that happens when you are outside of your sleeping bag.
That chart must be for you tough Canadian types and not for us soft Southeresterners. My 0* bag has 7.5 inches of combined loft (both sides of the bag) and I would NOT want to take it much below zero, maybe five degrees.
My 20* bag has 5" of loft and has kept me reasonably warm to 17*, but I wouldn't want to go any colder than that in that bag either.
Maybe I am just soft, but all of the major bag manufactures seem to run about the same loft for a zero bag:
Western Mountaineering - 7" (for both 0* and 5* bags)
Feathered Friends - 7"
Marmot - 7"
Mountain Hardwear - 7.5"
maybeFritz
12-04-2008, 13:17
Noticed you are in San Diego. I just picked up a WM ultralight at Adventure 16 for under $300 (very much on sale). Not sure how long the sale goes, but a 20 degree bag under 2lbs (for the 6'6" version) is a heck of a deal to me.
Fairly narrow bag, so make sure you are comfortable in it first.
That chart must be for you tough Canadian types and not for us soft Southeresterners. My 0* bag has 7.5 inches of combined loft (both sides of the bag) and I would NOT want to take it much below zero, maybe five degrees.
My 20* bag has 5" of loft and has kept me reasonably warm to 17*, but I wouldn't want to go any colder than that in that bag either.
Maybe I am just soft, but all of the major bag manufactures seem to run about the same loft for a zero bag:
Western Mountaineering - 7" (for both 0* and 5* bags)
Feathered Friends - 7"
Marmot - 7"
Mountain Hardwear - 7.5"Like I was saying I think the cold weather tolerance only makes a difference of 1/2" maybe 1", and in theory it should be a fixed amount. That is, if you need an extra 1" for a 30F bag, you should still only need an extra inch for a -30F bag. All the major bag manufacturers might sell 7" loft bags for 0*, but that doesn't mean anything. It just means they are selling bigger bags for bigger bucks.
The chart is for everyone. 5.6" total loft is enough for most people for 0degF.
Cold tolerant people perhaps an inch less and still be comfortable. Cold intolerant people perhaps an inch more and still be comfortable. Anything more than that is probably subjective. You still have to heat the bag up for example, and on bare skin, which you likely need if it has 7" of loft, its gonna feel cold for awhile. Also a very small person in a very large bag would need more loft than they would in a bag that fits them properly.
7" is overkill for 0degF, no matter who you are, regardless of bag ratings.
Just to be clear however, if I was expecting 0F, with a risk of -20F, I would want 7" of loft.
Bags are also going to feel colder and take longer to heat up after they've gained some ice in them after a few days of use. That's already built into the chart however, from what I understand. If you work out the actual clo value needed for a sleeping body at 0.80 met, 80kcal for 2 square metres of surface area, you don't even need 5.6" total loft even if your naked. I think the trouble is that bag manufacturers are increasing loft linearly at a greater rate than they really need to, because they want to sell bigger bags for bigger bucks. Consumers intuitively know they need twice as much bag when its twice as cold out, they just don't know what that is exactly. We rely too much on anecdotal information, largely based on marketing. From experience I know what I need for 30F and 10F, but even that is largely subjective based on so many factors. For me to figure out what I actually need for -30F I am going to rely on science, not anecdotal information or bag manufacturers trying to sell me a monster bag. There are scientific papers out there for people if they care to look.
Here is Mark Verber's article comparing two charts...
http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/sleep-system.html
I agree with Mark, and with most people as he states, that Western Mountaineering Bags are overly conservative for normal people. Where I differ somewhat, and this is my main point, is that the Western Mountaineering Bags are increasingly conservative as you go to their larger and larger bags. As you can see from their chart, their 40F bag is about right, but their -40F rated bag is 3" thicker in total than it needs to be. This would only make sense it "Cold Sleepers" crank out 70% as much heat per square meter when sleeping when things get cold. This actually isn't really the case. The real difference is that they like to sleep with a warmer skin temperature, so they need an extra 1" at most compared to normal folks to make up some lost ground. So for a 20*F rated bag an extra inch makes sense, but for 0*F they still only need that extra inch total, not 2 inches, and for -40F they still only need an extra inch total, not 3 inches.
W.M. info is by far better than i or you can do....so let's end it ...no wool.:D
Slow,
That just isn't so. Do your own research. Everyone should.
Let's not limit our discussion of science to marketing hype. :D
So the savings between Campmor and Western Mountaineering are about $10 per ounce.
Sounds like a good use of $ to me:rolleyes:
I am also 6', 210 lbs and had a Western Mountaineering Ultralight. I was not happy with it simply because it was too narrow in the shoulders. I was not comfortable in the bag, and I also feel that the temp rating was skewed because my shoulder width "stretched" the bag, thus somewhat flattening the loft, thus lowering the temp rating. I sold the bag and will now get a WM Alpinlite, which is a 20 degree bag with a 64" shoulder (the Ultra is a 59").
The moral of the story is be sure the bag fits you. The temp and weight ratings are important, but don't assume that all bags will fit you.
Good luck.
Believe it or not I just bought the WM Alpinlite last night. I tested it in the house with the heat off, only got down to around 50 but it is amazingly comfortable. It's freakishly light. One thing I really like is the zipper system. It looks like it will almost never snag.
The Alpinlite is the wide version of the Ultralite. From what I've heard the Ultralite is more narrow than most bags (59" shoulder) and the Alpinlite is wider (64" shoulder). I've heard some people complain that the Ultralite was to narrow for them.
Silly question, but how do you measure that shoulder girth.Do you just take the straight measurement at the widest part, arms to the side, with sleeping clothes on? I'm really wondering if you should add an inch or two or that had already been done for you?
Silly question, but how do you measure that shoulder girth.Do you just take the straight measurement at the widest part, arms to the side, with sleeping clothes on? I'm really wondering if you should add an inch or two or that had already been done for you?
I just read the specs on the manufacturer's website! :)
Maybe not the most accurate now that you mention it.
twoshoes06
12-05-2008, 11:48
Personally, there are a few pieces of core equipment that should not be skimped on. One of the most important is the sleeping bag. I recommend going with the WM Alpinlite for your size. I have an Ultralite, but I am 5'11" and 135 lbs. It is probably the best INVESTMENT I have made in a piece of backpacking gear.
I don't know about anyone else but I would rather a be better than it's rating than buy something cheap that weighs more and will lose it's rating quicker than kudzu grows in the summer.