View Full Version : Ultra light hiking: Corporate whores? :D
Original post from TW:
I think Golite cashed in on the UL fanaticism so prevalent today, urging people to get the Flimsy Four so treasured by ultralighters now(small load thin daypacks/flimsy and thin short sleeping pads/quilts masquerading as bags/floorless tiny tarps for tents). And it seems some of the speed hikers and triple crowners get paid by Golite or a similar UL gear companies to use and advertise their brands.
As seen from the poor wear qualities of their shoes, I imagine the rest of UL gear shows similar wear-longevity and there's probably some good stories of trail blowouts in the middle of nowhere. Straps break, zippers pop, fabric rends, shoes disintegrate; all part of the mad rush to create gram-fixated gear to feed the UL addiction. Does anyone remember when gear could be used nearly continuously for 20 years with just minor repairs?
It was my reply to MAGS comment: "Many of my thru-hiking buddies would be amazed at this statement."
The first two are ultrarunners who happen to be doing a trail. Different beast.
Andrew Skurka is fortunate enough to make a modest living hiking. Good for him. I wouldn't say he is a close friend, but I know well enough where we've grabbed beers together. He loves to hike and is able to do it for a bit of a living. I'm envious in a good way.
However, the two dozen triple crowners I know personally (that's a guess, might be more or less), and myself...well, none of us are sponsored. :)
Finally, sponsorship usually means gear gratis and usually not $$$$. You can make more money working part time at Home Dept that you can with most sponsorships.
Gear fetish (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Outdoor-Writings/gear_fetish.html), be it heavy or light or in between, is not about the outdoors. It is something tangible and easy to talk about.
People who get ecstatic about gear can fall into either camp. (Heavy or light)
I would argue that people who are heavily into the outdoors and experienced seldom discuss gear unless asked. I would also argue that people heavily passionate about the outdoors really don't care what other people carry as well.
I'd also argue that in the outdoors, that many people go through three phases:
1) What do I need to hike? (Gear)
2) Where do I hike?
3) Why do I hike?
This theory is not originally mine by any means, but something to keep in mind as we have yet another round of "My way is superior and the only way to hike". Also known as Hike my Hike, Damn it!
I'll say it again: Take the right tool for the right job. One way is not better or worse. Just have fun, be safe, and don't let your fun impose upon others.
ps. Not to be picky, but Andy is not a triple crowner. He is however a very experienced backpacker who has seen some cool things
Hammock Hanger
12-05-2008, 18:42
...I would argue that people who are heavily into the outdoors and experienced seldom discuss gear unless asked. I would also argue that people heavily passionate about the outdoors really don't care what other people carry as well.
...I'll say it again: Take the right tool for the right job. One way is not better or worse. Just have fun, be safe, and don't let your fun impose upon others.
Mags, I am not totally sure what this thread was a response to... no matter. I have to say I liked your response especially the quotes noted above.
I personally just like to hike...:D
ofthearth
12-05-2008, 18:57
Mags, I am not totally sure what this thread was a response to... no matter. I have to say I liked your response especially the quotes noted above.
I personally just like to hike...:D
Apparently (see below ) this thread was started to/because ????????????
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=735099
Starting a new thread in response to Tipi Walter's reply. :)
_terrapin_
12-05-2008, 19:06
Heavy, old stuff breaks, too. I did 2/3 of the AT with a Camp Trails external frame pack, bought in 1988 or so. The rivets on the shoulder straps were never up to snuff. They'd ripped loose before I got out of Georgia. At NOC, I got new straps, gratis (lifetime warranty.) By Erwin the straps were hosed again. A cobbler at Erwin sewed in leather reinforcements. Problem solved. One of the welds in the frame developed a crack -- Camp Trails replaced the frame. I still have the pack but it looks like hell -- several small tears, zippers barely functional. I used it on my 2006 section hike, but that was the last time.
A few items from my 1990 hike are still functional: Whisperlite, Seattle Sombrero, stainless cook pot, sleeping bags, Eureka tent. The sombrero still gets taken on any significant hike. The rest has all been replaced by newer, lighter gear. No regrets!
Apparently (see below ) this thread was started to/because ????????????
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=735099
Well, while the discussion (to me anyway) is a good one for the outdoors, I'd hate for the debate to flow into a discussion on Go Lite shoes.
So I started a new thread out of courtesy.
garlic08
12-05-2008, 20:47
As usual, Mags, thanks for the wise writing.
I've been told often that I should really give up the LW gear for the good old heavy stuff, for my own good and safety. If I did that, I'd be back to where I was when I was a mere forty years old--retired from hiking with bad knees and ankles. The LW gear has given me a new hiking career. And as a bonus I can hike more, farther, faster than I've ever hiked before.
As an aside, I've never used a Golite product. I thought about trying the shoes this last year, and am sure glad I didn't. Even LW gear companies have the good stuff that lasts and the bad stuff that doesn't. My Tarptent Contrail is a keeper, as is my Marmot Helium bag.
Tipi Walter
12-05-2008, 20:51
Mags: I read thru your "The New Gear Fetish" and this quote stuck out: "Why do we obsess over titantium pots . . . lightweight backpacking is about paring down to the uber essentials yet backpacking seems to have become about gear. Lightweight backpacking has become less about simplicity and more about what 'gee whiz' toys you can buy to get lightweight."
You probably won't like it, but I agree. I know of no crowd so fixated on gear as the UL gram counters, it seems to be a fixation of unknown origin. Perhaps it has to do with the obsession with making miles on long trails, or with a peculiar facet of AT backpacking where resupply is just 3 or 4 days down the trail. With no real food load to speak of, ULers are at liberty to experiment with low-volume daypacks and breezy screen tents or floorless tarp style shelters.
It's not about a HIKE MY HIKE! mindset, it's about a strange UL group-think causing large groups of backpackers, especially newbs, to madly rush into the world of everything lite. It's partly about what you said in the above quote. And yet when I see them on my trips, especially in the winter, they are frequently on the edge of some mini-epic with a water soaked bivy sack or a totally unuseable hammock blown out by a blizzard.
And so what do they do? They either cancel out the trip and bug out, or find a friend's tent to stay in and sit out the storm. There's laughable stories of winter backpackers trying to go light with trail runners and wonder why they have to hitch out due to frozen feet. There's the repeated stories of hammockers caught in some hellish windstorm with zero temps and blown snow, bailing to the closest tent. There's the stories of small packs and lite weights but no winter clothing worth talking about. No down jackets, no beefy gloves, just some Under Armor and a fleece top. Sure, they speed up to the mountaintop but after they arrive they take off cuz they just can't stay.
For the most part, these are not experienced backpackers, they are newbs caught up in the dazzle. I blame the UL mentors and prophets for flashing their bright beams of glaring light, blinding more reasoned souls with the philosophy of UL backpacking. For the Milarepa types out there who can sleep in the snow with a quilt and carry nothing but a buttpack, I applaud you. But for every such expert there's a thousand more backpackers out here trying to do the same thing and there's the rub. They're the ones I get to see.
You probably won't like it, but I agree. I know of no crowd so fixated on gear as the UL gram counters, it seems to be a fixation of unknown origin. P
You see only the online hiking community too much.
People LOVE to discuss gear, period.
And I see most of your posts are ranting about......gear.
:-?
Perhaps it has to do with the obsession with making miles on long trails, or with a peculiar facet of AT backpacking where resupply is just 3 or 4 days down the trail. With no real food load to speak of, ULers are at liberty to experiment with low-volume daypacks and breezy screen tents or floorless tarp style shelters.
Sigh. I go lite so I can stay out longer. I was 10 days in the High Sierra. Why? Because I went light. I went 8 days in the winds without a resupply. Why? Because I went light.
I think you are too AT focused and need to expand your outdoor horizons.
As I said before, I go lite because I LOVE to hike. All day. Every day.
The simple act of walking is much more enjoyable when you go light.
If enjoyed camping more, I'd take different gear.
As for under-prepared winter hikers, rember what I said about taking the right tool for the right job?
Yes..people can fetishisize gear who go light. I see much of this gear wonkery on the Internet.
But I also see curmudgeons who fetishisize the good old gear from the good old days of heavy backpacking. (People have always been trying to go light, BTW. It is nothing new).
Finally, I'd say people new to backpacking tend to go heavy overall. I've probably led more beginners trips than most people. Believe me, I know! It is the worse kind of gear fetish. Taking heavy gear (and lots of it!) because you were told that is how you are supposed to do it by people who have a fetish for carrying heavy gear. :)
Going light is a philosophy. It is not about the gear. It is about taking what you need to be safe and happy in the outdoors.
No more. No less.
Think of it more as minimalism. And minimalist are not focused on gear, but on the simple enjoyment of the outdoors.
If I did that, I'd be back to where I was when I was a mere forty years old--retired from hiking with bad knees and ankles. The LW gear has given me a new hiking career. And as a bonus I can hike more, farther, faster than I've ever hiked before.
Now that Garlic is in Arizona, I am going to miss our hikes and skis together!
All I can tell is that Garlic is who I want to be when I grow up. :)
He and Pickle had an awesome, fun and "fast" hike on the AT.
And they went light....
_terrapin_
12-05-2008, 21:24
I think there's a lot to be said for "light" even without the ultra- in front of it. Without that, I'm not sure I could still hack long, hard hikes.
Hammock Hanger
12-05-2008, 21:39
Learning to go light has made long distance hiking much more enjoyable for me. That said I think some can be down right fanatical about it. Also I have seen newbies out on the trail going so light that they are an accident or disaster in waiting.
Learning to go light has made long distance hiking much more enjoyable for me. That said I think some can be down right fanatical about it. Also I have seen newbies out on the trail going so light that they are an accident or disaster in waiting.
The lightest way to go light is not about gear.
It is about knowledge.
Be it heavy or light or in between, gear is not a substitute for knowing how to be comfortable, safe and having fun in the outdoors. :)
When you know how to do that, you tend to be more minimalist about your gear (which does not necessarily mean light BTW)
Also I have seen newbies out on the trail going so light that they are an accident or disaster in waiting.
True, but I'd say the same could be said of people who are lugging around 40, 50, 60+ pounds.
Hammock Hanger
12-05-2008, 21:57
The lightest way to go light is not about gear.
It is about knowledge.
Be it heavy or light or in between, gear is not a substitute for knowing how to be comfortable, safe and having fun in the outdoors. :)
When you know how to do that, you tend to be more minimalist about your gear (which does not necessarily mean light BTW)
I agree it is not so much what you carry and how light it is. It is knowing how to take care of your needs and requirments when out on the trail and being prepared to do such. KNOWLEDGE is the key, some of that comes from experience. However, some go out unprepared and with no past experience on nothing more then what they have read.
Jayzuz, why are you so obsessed with what gear other people use?
I think it is great you like canvas and wool and leather. Carry a camp ax to your heart's content. Dig a trench around your tent and build a browse bed every night.
Just stop whining about people who don't hike the way you do, will ya?
There is plenty of room in the woods for people who like to carry big packs AND people who like to carry less.
It's a matter or personal taste and personal choice, like Corn Flakes or Rice Krispies. You like one, that person likes the other, and I like Cheerios.
Stop trying to act like people are wrong, stupid and/or evil for liking Corn Flakes. It's ridiculous.
Mags: I read thru your "The New Gear Fetish" and this quote stuck out: "Why do we obsess over titantium pots . . . lightweight backpacking is about paring down to the uber essentials yet backpacking seems to have become about gear. Lightweight backpacking has become less about simplicity and more about what 'gee whiz' toys you can buy to get lightweight."
You probably won't like it, but I agree. I know of no crowd so fixated on gear as the UL gram counters, it seems to be a fixation of unknown origin. Perhaps it has to do with the obsession with making miles on long trails, or with a peculiar facet of AT backpacking where resupply is just 3 or 4 days down the trail. With no real food load to speak of, ULers are at liberty to experiment with low-volume daypacks and breezy screen tents or floorless tarp style shelters.
It's not about a HIKE MY HIKE! mindset, it's about a strange UL group-think causing large groups of backpackers, especially newbs, to madly rush into the world of everything lite. It's partly about what you said in the above quote. And yet when I see them on my trips, especially in the winter, they are frequently on the edge of some mini-epic with a water soaked bivy sack or a totally unuseable hammock blown out by a blizzard.
And so what do they do? They either cancel out the trip and bug out, or find a friend's tent to stay in and sit out the storm. There's laughable stories of winter backpackers trying to go light with trail runners and wonder why they have to hitch out due to frozen feet. There's the repeated stories of hammockers caught in some hellish windstorm with zero temps and blown snow, bailing to the closest tent. There's the stories of small packs and lite weights but no winter clothing worth talking about. No down jackets, no beefy gloves, just some Under Armor and a fleece top. Sure, they speed up to the mountaintop but after they arrive they take off cuz they just can't stay.
For the most part, these are not experienced backpackers, they are newbs caught up in the dazzle. I blame the UL mentors and prophets for flashing their bright beams of glaring light, blinding more reasoned souls with the philosophy of UL backpacking. For the Milarepa types out there who can sleep in the snow with a quilt and carry nothing but a buttpack, I applaud you. But for every such expert there's a thousand more backpackers out here trying to do the same thing and there's the rub. They're the ones I get to see.
Jayzuz, why are you so obsessed with what gear other people use?
I think it is great you like canvas and wool and leather. Carry a camp ax to your heart's content. Dig a trench around your tent and build a browse bed every night.
Just stop whining about people who don't hike the way you do, will ya?
There is plenty of room in the woods for people who like to carry big packs AND people who like to carry less.
It's a matter or personal taste and personal choice, like Corn Flakes or Rice Krispies. You like one, that person likes the other, and I like Cheerios.
Stop trying to act like people are wrong, stupid and/or evil for liking Corn Flakes. It's ridiculous.
Winner winner chicken dinner! :)
_terrapin_
12-05-2008, 22:12
I like talking about hiking gear because it's sooooo much simpler than the crazy, abstract stuff I have to deal with at work. None of it is rocket science. The best hiking gear is stuff that you can take apart, down to the last piece, and reassemble with one arm behind your back, in the woods. No electricity, computer, or user manuals required. What's not to love?
True, but I'd say the same could be said of people who are lugging around 40, 50, 60+ pounds.
Which, from my experience, is what most people do.
I would never suggest a sub-10lb pack to a person new to the outdoors.
But neither would I suggest a 40+ lb pack either.
I honestly think most people can be at the sub-20 BPW without buying very expensive gear or sacrificing comfort and safety.
Canister stove, a good down bag, the newer lightweight tents, lightweight frame packs, substantial clothing, etc.
My good friend is typical of what I think of as the "happy medium" backpacker. He has no desire to backpack 2000 miles. Not does he wants to be a pack mule. 10-15 MPD is what he likes to do. A good mixture of camping AND hiking is his ideal pace (which is what 10-15 MPD is for most people).
He is in his mid-40s as well. In good shape, but nothing extraordinary.
He is, in essence, your Joe Average backpacker. (Well, he is an Israeili. Not sure of the Hebrew term for Joe Average? ;) )
As he put it, he enjoys backpacking much more since he went lighter.
He does not have mileage mania. Nor is he a gear wonk.
He just wants to enjoy the simple act of walking.
And light gear has increased his enjoyment of it.
I like talking about hiking gear because it's sooooo much simpler than the crazy, abstract stuff I have to deal with at work. .... What's not to love?
Terrapin, seriously, I seldom see you talk extensively about gear (That's a good thing! :).
I love hiking because of the simplicity. Indeed what is not to like??? I think most of us, hopefully, get out there more for the gear...or get out there so as to not criticize other people's gear. ;)
Seriously, for a moment, when I don't have to think about the gear, I can think about the REALLY important things concerning the outdoors: The sunsets, the smell of sage, how a nice, red wine goes so well with the campfire.
The reasons why we hike....
Good stuff.
A lighter pack is easier on an old body (a younger one, too, I guess). I started packing more wisely the more I hiked, leaving behind what I did not absolutely need (excepting for first aid and a little extra food). The rain gear became the rain and wind gear. One pot replaced two. A spoon was the only utensil needed. A change of clothes was only necessary once a week, etc. I hike, like so many others who reponded to this thread simply because I like to hike. I usually put in a longer day than many others (especially my age), but sometimes I just hike to a nice pond or stream, have a swim and relax.
I found that I stopped categorizing others when I stopped categorizing myself.
I like to hike (and generally, I like others who like to hike, regardless of their "style".
Once again, another thread of pontification why one style of hiking is better \ worse than another. The manufacturer's are in business to make a profit. The marketplace has a way of weeding out poorly made gear and rewarding well designed quality gear. Hiker's gear selections evolve as hikers gain experience.
Mags has it right "Going light is a philosophy. It is not about the gear. It is about taking what you need to be safe and happy in the outdoors." And I add, and to achieve your goals.
I like the challenge of maximum ease and comfort with minimum weight, for me it beats a speed or distance challange
FritztheCat
12-05-2008, 23:03
Over the last year, I've been buying for my thru-hike goal of 2011. I have found the ultra-light stuff to really be ultra-light. I'm coming at hiking from years of camping and with camping, you don't really care how much it weighs because you cart it there in a vehicle, pull it out and set it up, then cart it home in a vehicle. With hiking, I'm the vehicle. So weight is important. I don't obsess about it though but I do plan on keeping my total pack weight, including food and water, to around 30 lbs. I figure that will be an ideal weight since I'll have to lug it over mountains for at least 5 months.
What I've found myself getting caught up in is price. UL stuff isn't cheap. I have zero skills at making home-made stuff because I have zero knowledge or experience at it. So as I go through the list of what I need, I find that I'm drawn to the really expensive stuff because if it is expensive then it has to be high quality...right? Well, that doesn't appear to be so, at least in my limited experience. This forum has been invaluable to me. The years of experience by the posters here...well, you just can't put a price on that.
Anyway, what I look for in gear is what I feel will make my hiking more comfortable. I want to be able to really enjoy the outdoors without having to worry about having adequate shelter or comfort. Most of my stuff is what I consider ultra-light but that is simply because I don't want to lug a huge amount of weight around. If I don't make it all the way from GA to ME, I don't want it to be because I was just too tired to lift a heavy bag and carry on. In other words, I'm hoping I don't have a "heart is willing but body is unable" due specifically to having heavy stuff.
Hope that makes sense.
skinewmexico
12-06-2008, 00:11
Every endeavor, from fantasy football to quilting, has it's obsessive fanatics. SUL is not different. I don't see anything wrong with using the lightest piece of gear that will do the job, and have reasonable durability.
True, but I'd say the same could be said of people who are lugging around 40, 50, 60+ pounds.
But less likely to have accidents, especially around the low end of your scale. I carry mostly what I have or can afford. I seek reasonable lightness. I draw the line, however, at foot gear designed to be replaced every 400 miles.
Besides, I hike mostly because I like to explore wild places, not to see how easy or fast I can get out of wild places.
Weary
superman
12-06-2008, 07:40
The AT is one of the most hiker friendly trails in this country. It allows hikers to try to carry different gear and supplies. The second day on my thru hike I met an ultra-lite thru hiker. He had this little school pack and he smiled ...a lot. My pack was 40 lb without food or water. I wanted to trip the guy but I couldn't catch him.:D
I have a large assortment of gear now and I take a different assortment of gear for each hike. The only wrong choice of gear is not having something that you need to hike safely. The right tool for the right job varies by the hike I started the PCT with an ultra light tent which was like sleeping in a car wash when it rained.
garlic08
12-06-2008, 10:12
What I've found myself getting caught up in is price. UL stuff isn't cheap.
I keep hearing this, and in my experience, with two exceptions, it's not true. My Tarptent Contrail cost just over $200 and it'll be good for many years. My Gossamer Gear pack, I got on sale for $85 and it's still fine after an AT thru. When I carried a stove, it was free, now I don't carry one and it's even cheaper. I don't carry a pocketknife, just a nickel razor blade. My pack liner is a trash compactor bag. Gatorade bottles come from the recycle place or the roadside. Clothing comes from sales/closeouts or resale shops. I don't carry a filter, just wash my hands often.
The exceptions are the footwear and the sleeping bag. I went through four pairs of $70 shoes this year and have nothing left to show for it. The light sleeping bags do cost big bucks, but man, are they worth it!
I heard a heavy hiker talking about her experience at an outfitter, where they told her that it would cost $100 for every pound lost from the pack. So she thought it would cost $2000 extra to drop her pack from forty to twenty pounds! That might be true if you're carrying twenty down sleeping bags.
The gear I used up/lost/broke on the AT this year cost about $300. A lot of LW hikers are dirtbaggers at heart, not corporate hos.
_terrapin_
12-06-2008, 10:25
I heard a heavy hiker talking about her experience at an outfitter, where they told her that it would cost $100 for every pound lost from the pack. So she thought it would cost $2000 extra to drop her pack from forty to twenty pounds! That might be true if you're carrying twenty down sleeping bags.
There's some truth in what she says, and you know it. And it's OK, as far as I'm concerned. The new stuff is cutting edge. Weird fabrics. Fancy technology. Smart folks in offices making good salaries designing this stuff. So it's expensive. Who knew? That's how "the market" works. It's The American Way. With luck, I'm a decade from retiring; I'm not poor, but free time is scarce. I work, I save. So I'm ready to drop a few $$ for light gear -- if it really works.
So if y'all wanna re-engineer society so I have to work less, play more -- by all means, go for it! The trail is calling.
stumpknocker
12-06-2008, 10:33
Gatorade bottles come from the recycle place or the roadside.
The recycle place is where my old Gatorade pee bottles end up. :eek:
Sorry Garlic....couldn't help myself. :)
Alot of folks get sucked in though.. I mean, come on, I see them at rei totally getting smoozed into needing " this and that ". Thier eyes seem to get bigger along with the price tag. I think different trails require different gear though... i guess.. i don't know.. maybe that is'nt true so much anymore.
_terrapin_
12-06-2008, 10:47
Alot of folks get sucked in though.. I mean, come on, I see them at rei totally getting smoozed into needing " this and that ". Thier eyes seem to get bigger along with the price tag. I think different trails require different gear though... i guess.. i don't know.. maybe that is'nt true so much anymore.
You're talking about REI, the thread's about "Ultralight". By and large, REI doesn't do hard-core ultralight. Their specialty is shiny stuff in bright colors. They do carry a few decent (if not UL) brands, so I still stop in, every now and then. They're as close as we've got to an "outfitter" round here. The local EMS got shut down.
Well, I am using it as an example of the " box stores "... most of them sell about the same quality of Ul. I said most too so please don't attack me ! Our store in fairbanks sells quite a bit of ul but also the traditional... and I think up here it is not a bad idea to carry more. I have let folks I know who are interested in the ul to go online for me.
_terrapin_
12-06-2008, 11:01
I'd also argue that in the outdoors, that many people go through three phases:
1) What do I need to hike? (Gear)
2) Where do I hike?
3) Why do I hike?
Maslow's hierarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow_hierarchy_of_needs) in a nutshell.
There's some truth in what she says, and you know it. And it's OK, as far as I'm concerned. The new stuff is cutting edge. Weird fabrics. Fancy technology. S
There is truth if you buy into it (literally).
I am dirt bagger myself. As with Garlic, some of my stuff is expensive (shoes, sleeping bag, Montbell jacket). But I wear a $4 thrift store shirt, hike in $10 polys, etc. ) And considering how long my sleeping bag lasted, it was inexpensive in the long run.
You can very easily hike light and cheap.
I did anyway. So did others.
All the bright and shiny ultralight gear that people obsess about goes in to the Gear Fetish category.
As you said..if it works. Great! If you buy it because you think you need it..well, read this essay. (http://www.rayjardine.com/papers/cannonballs.htm)
(it is not mine)
I will shop just about anywhere, but when I buy something I try and be objective about materials and form and function, and weary of paying too much especially to overhead, like corporate executives. You can find some good things in strange places though, including some corporate executives. :)
Jim Adams
12-06-2008, 16:24
If you want to be comfortable and enjoy your hike to the fullest, then you may need different sets of gear for different trails and different areas but comfort and safety should be your prime concern. I have pared my load to be "just the things that I need" but I do not skip on the comfort factor. I am 55 years old, over weight and out of shape. I can blow out the occassional 20-25 mile day if I have to but my game now is to see EVERYTHING, enjoy my hike and ALSO my camp. I own no UL gear and some of the gear that I carry is 15-20 years old but it is light enough for me and works well with my hiking style. My current AT thru hiking pack weight is 28-30 lbs. It is a very comfortable external frame pack, depending on the season, either a 0* to 50* bag, a small CC type chair, 4 days of food, a liter of water and a liter of whiskey. I have adequite clothing for the seasons, a shelter, a mat, a stove, a knife, matches, TP, small hank of rope and Advil. None of the items are UL but my pack is still 30 lbs. max. I enjoy my hikes....I think that as long as that is the outcome...each person needs ot HYOH!!!!
geek
You sure don't need to spend a ton to have a successful thru hike. That is what I hate seeing... folks spending a ton on gear and NOT much time on the dynamics of the hike. I saw a couple of guys on the At in 05 with enough food to get them to hot springs and fontana. They were suprised when I told them they were going to walk right thru Neels gap...one guy had about 30 cans of tuna.. the other had ALOT of marlboro stuff... yikes !
On pct we were behind some folks who were leaving gear as they hiked.. nice stuff.. patagonia this and mnt hardwear that. We were like.. Wow ! and picking the stuff up hoping to catch them and give it back. They also left an axe, coleman stove and a shovel. Go figure.
If you want to be comfortable and enjoy your hike to the fullest, then you may need different sets of gear for different trails and different areas but comfort and safety should be your prime concern. I have pared my load to be "just the things that I need" but I do not skip on the comfort factor. I am 55 years old, over weight and out of shape. I can blow out the occassional 20-25 mile day if I have to but my game now is to see EVERYTHING, enjoy my hike and ALSO my camp. I own no UL gear and some of the gear that I carry is 15-20 years old but it is light enough for me and works well with my hiking style. My current AT thru hiking pack weight is 28-30 lbs. It is a very comfortable external frame pack, depending on the season, either a 0* to 50* bag, a small CC type chair, 4 days of food, a liter of water and a liter of whiskey. I have adequite clothing for the seasons, a shelter, a mat, a stove, a knife, matches, TP, small hank of rope and Advil. None of the items are UL but my pack is still 30 lbs. max. I enjoy my hikes....I think that as long as that is the outcome...each person needs ot HYOH!!!!
geekThat's a great post Jim. I hope to be in your shape when I'm 55. 30 pounds is a good skin-out target weight for me including food, but when I am up to 230 like I am now even that's a bit rough, and when I am down under 200 it really don't much matter and even a 30 pound pack weight is fun. I think we should just focus on living well and staying in reasonable shape, mentally and physically, as you seem to be doing. We can do it cheap and we can do it expensive but it the grand scheme of things that doesn't much matter either.
hey jak, what is new brunswick like ?...
FritztheCat
12-07-2008, 11:11
My current AT thru hiking pack weight is 28-30 lbs. It is a very comfortable external frame pack, depending on the season, either a 0* to 50* bag, a small CC type chair, 4 days of food, a liter of water and a liter of whiskey.
How much does that weigh? Do they make it in ultra-light? I may have to re-think my gear list. :D
skinewmexico
12-07-2008, 13:02
and a liter of whiskey
Think you could put that in a dehydrator?? :)
flemdawg1
12-11-2008, 17:52
I never understood why all the hate for ULers. So they like gear. Personally, my gear obsession comes by nature of my profession, engineer. And it helps pass the time between trips. And Golite makes crappy shoes, but from what I've heard the rest of their stuff is pretty good and its not nearly as expensive as some other brands (Gregory, Osprey packs come to mind). As far as ULing being commercial, sorry I don't see it. The main players are still cottage industries and MYOG, and probably will continue to be. ULing isn't attracting the big business Coleman's, Keltys and Walmart isn't stocking Silnylon tarps.
A couple of people come to mind--guys who were hiking light with heavyweight gear.
One was a NOBO I ran into a few years ago. He was carrying a 25-year-old external frame pack, but there was hardly anything in it. I bet his whole load didn't weigh 30 pounds.
Another was my erstwhile hiking partner, Snapshot, after he saw the Light, and sent most of his stuff home. His pack weighed just over 30 pounds, and it was a Kelty Red Cloud. Inside were an MSR Whisperlite stove, a stainless steel cookpot (he had melted the aluminum one when it boiled dry), and a heavy Cabela's sleeping bag. Other than food, that was about it.
Morale of the story--the secret of lightweight hiking lies more in reducing the number and variety of objects you carry, not having special, fancy, cutting-edge ones.
If you can do both, then you can really fly.
Jack Tarlin
12-11-2008, 19:07
First off, I'm unfamiliar with GoLite shoes and have never worn them.
And I used to be fairly scorful/skeptical about some of their other stuff, till this year.
That's when I encountered the CEO of GoLite down in Georgia, where he was hiking on the A.T. with over 120 pounds in his pack.
He'd started with around 130.
The pack was doing just fine.
In short, I think some of the comments here on GoLite products are WAY out of line. Kim and Demetri Coupounas, who founded the company, are really fine people, and I think they run a really fine company.
As much as I am a primitive minimalist that hates logos and brand names and post-modern consumerism,
I would like to personally thank all the corporate whores that made my Golite Jam2 available.
It is highly functional, and was reasonably priced at $100.
nitewalker
12-11-2008, 19:26
First off, I'm unfamiliar with GoLite shoes and have never worn them.
And I used to be fairly scorful/skeptical about some of their other stuff, till this year.
That's when I encountered the CEO of GoLite down in Georgia, where he was hiking on the A.T. with over 120 pounds in his pack.
He'd started with around 130.
The pack was doing just fine.
In short, I think some of the comments here on GoLite products are WAY out of line. Kim and Demetri Coupounas, who founded the company, are really fine people, and I think they run a really fine company.
im going to bite. what was the guy carrying in order for the pack to weigh 130lb? was this a trial test to see if the pack would hold up.:-?.. im sure it wasnt a golite jam
I'm going to back up Jack Tarlin on this one, totally, 100%.
Jack Tarlin
12-11-2008, 19:35
He was carrying gear and food.
His original intention was to hike 40 days, unsupported, without stopping anywhere to Re-Supply.
In fact, his plans changed radically, and he stopped his hike at Neel Gap, but just getting from Springer to there with 120-plus pounds was pretty impressive in itself. I've gone over Blood Mountain with seventy. Adding another 55 pounds on this stretch could not have been much fun.
I have no idea what the pack would've looked like after 40 days of this, but the fact that anyone could hike in it with 120 lbs. was pretty amazing, and I know it could be done, as I was the only person who also tried on and wore the pack with this kind of weight in it.
In short, those who malign Go-Lite as flimsy, junky, or prone to falling apart might want to rethink this.
I originally felt this way, and I was very much mistaken, and have no problems saying so.
4eyedbuzzard
12-11-2008, 19:42
...I know of no crowd so fixated on gear as the UL gram counters, it seems to be a fixation of unknown origin...
Well, as to origin obviously there has been an evolution of gear with lower weight due to materials/engineering over the years, largely driven by almost everyone's desire to carry less heavy but still adequate equipment. I think you have to look to Dick Kelty, Gerry, and a few others originally on the equipment side, and perhaps Colin Fletcher on the philosophy side. I remember in The Complete Walker Colin talking about cutting off the handle of his tooth brush and debating various spirits vs Everclear but ultimately concluding that pot was the ultimate backpacking intoxicant. This was all in the 60's, so we're going on 50 years now of a philosophy that has led to lower weights year after year.
I definitely agree though that some take it to absurd and even dangerous levels.
Jack Tarlin
12-11-2008, 19:45
Ever actually SEE anyone try and brush their teeth with a sawed-off toothbrush?
Well, I have, and it's pretty amusing.
Being weight conscious is perfectly wise.
Being an obsessed gram weenie can get ridiculous.
4eyedbuzzard
12-11-2008, 19:49
Ever actually SEE anyone try and brush their teeth with a sawed-off toothbrush?
Well, I have, and it's pretty amusing.
Being weight conscious is perfectly wise.
Being an obsessed gram weenie can get ridiculous.
Yep, it can get absurd after a while. I like having a full toothbrush and even a separate fork AND spoon.:eek:
From what I've seen and heard and experienced of Golite products they are pretty exceptional by todays standards in terms of being able to find value and functionality and something different and out of the ordinary. I haven't tried the shoes yet either, but they look highly functional and original, and I think the detachable gaiter in particular is a really good concept.
http://www.golite-footwear.com/
I know some CEOs and executives of BAD companies that are really nice folks. I think these folks deserve alot more credit and respect. I thought the move last spring with the really heavy pack was pretty cool and showed Dimitri first and foremost to be a really genuinely original and interesting character. I envy Jack Tarlin, amongst other things, for having had the opportunity to have met him, and for the way he defends the fellows character in situations where it might be both fun and easy to just take cheap shots.
superman
12-11-2008, 19:54
Two young bone heads tried to go ultra light in 2000. They were cold and miserable most of the time. They'd gotten rid of esential gear in order to be wicked light. They found that towns were more comfortable than the trail and started big yellow blazes and then forgot about hiking the AT.
Two young bone heads tried to go ultra light in 2000. They were cold and miserable most of the time. They'd gotten rid of esential gear in order to be wicked light. They found that towns were more comfortable than the trail and started big yellow blazes and then forgot about hiking the AT.Weigh that against the countless boneheads that spend way too much gear that is way too heavy.
... or the ones that just stay home and e-blaze. ;)
Going light is not a new concept. Gerry Cunningham (? I'm not sure of the last name), the founder of Gerry's outdoor equipment company, wrote a guide in the mid-70s about how to do a weekend hike with less than 21 pounds of total weight, including, if remember rightly, three days of food.
The company was sold many years ago. But the concept was valid then, and it's valid now.
Weary
trailmonkey
12-11-2008, 20:24
Going light is not a new concept.
I'll see your Gerry and raise you a Spartan
I'll see your Gerry and raise you a Spartan
Tell us about Spartan. The name doesn't ring a bell.
I think they fought off some Persians.
But it was most of the Persians were UL, not the Spartans. :)
Otzi the Iceman seemed pretty UL. Maybe that's why the killed him.
He wouldn't pay $300 for a 6 pound pack like everyone else. :D
Alligator
12-12-2008, 12:59
I never understood why all the hate for ULers. ...Sometimes they are overbearing.
Sometimes they are overbearing.
They do have a lower threshold for being considered so.
Alligator
12-12-2008, 14:37
They do have a lower threshold for being considered so.Not by me, I weigh both sides equally. No point in being overly heavy either.
skinewmexico
12-12-2008, 14:49
Be Prepared. Might be light, might be heavier; depends on the excursion.
I was just trying to make a silly pun.
Alligator
12-12-2008, 16:24
It's all light hearted fun until someone loses an ounce.
I think they fought off some Persians.
But it was most of the Persians were UL, not the Spartans. :)
Otzi the Iceman seemed pretty UL. Maybe that's why the killed him.
He wouldn't pay $300 for a 6 pound pack like everyone else. :D
So much for ancient history. My problem is more immediate. I just paid $15 for a six pound pack, and before it arrived my wife, knowing I was looking, bought another for $20 at the LL Bean employee store. So now I have both an Osprey and a Lowes.
I was looking for a cheap pack for carrying my chain saw. Unfortunately, both are as good as new, and far too good for transporting a dirty, oilly, smelly chain saw, especially when I have grandkids that from time to time need to bottow a pack. So my search goes on.
Weary
It's all light hearted fun until someone loses an ounce.LOL
Good one.
So much for ancient history. My problem is more immediate. I just paid $15 for a six pound pack, and before it arrived my wife, knowing I was looking, bought another for $20 at the LL Bean employee store. So now I have both an Osprey and a Lowes.
I was looking for a cheap pack for carrying my chain saw. Unfortunately, both are as good as new, and far too good for transporting a dirty, oilly, smelly chain saw, especially when I have grandkids that from time to time need to bottow a pack. So my search goes on.
Weary
Get your grandkids some decent ultralight packs.
Then if you need a chainsaw, make them carry it. :D
skinewmexico
12-13-2008, 18:34
Put your chainsaw in a trash bag. And let the grandkids carry it.
I was looking for a cheap pack for carrying my chain saw. Unfortunately, both are as good as new, and far too good for transporting a dirty, oilly, smelly chain saw, especially when I have grandkids that from time to time need to bottow a pack. So my search goes on.
Weary
Someone (a maintainer) on here posted pics of an external that was set up to carry a saw and gas oil. Had a "sheath" for the saw bar. Tight set up. Consider starting a thread with saw in the title. Or maybe search.
Cookerhiker
12-13-2008, 20:08
Someone (a maintainer) on here posted pics of an external that was set up to carry a saw and gas oil. Had a "sheath" for the saw bar. Tight set up. Consider starting a thread with saw in the title. Or maybe search.
Last weekend I was on a PATC work crew along with some folks from the local mountain biking association. One of the latter had a customized backpack for his chainsaw. I didn't get a good look at it.
Skidsteer
12-13-2008, 20:44
Someone (a maintainer) on here posted pics of an external that was set up to carry a saw and gas oil. Had a "sheath" for the saw bar. Tight set up. Consider starting a thread with saw in the title. Or maybe search.
Last weekend I was on a PATC work crew along with some folks from the local mountain biking association. One of the latter had a customized backpack for his chainsaw. I didn't get a good look at it.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31721&highlight=maintainer%27s+pack
Someone (a maintainer) on here posted pics of an external that was set up to carry a saw and gas oil. Had a "sheath" for the saw bar. Tight set up. Consider starting a thread with saw in the title. Or maybe search.
I once had a Kelty frame that I could have used for the saw. Unfortunately it blew off the back of a pickup truck, and was run over by a following car. I still have the frame, but I despair of straightening it enough to make is useable for carrying anything.
It's survived a number of trash removing episodes. But I'm strongly tempted to heave it when the next one comes around.
As for the grandkids, ultralight is a concept, I believe, for experienced hikers. None of my grandkids of pack-borrowing age qualify.
Weary
Pretty happy with my GoLite products. 3.5 lbs for my shelter and a 4400 cu inch pack combined. Durability is not a concern here as the pack is dyneema and the silnylon is 30D ripstop. Snow snow or high winds- no prob.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3200/3108077369_7cfeab7e63.jpg?v=0
I am in the process of switching to light and ultra-light equipment because it makes sense FOR ME at this point in my life (Hike Your Own Hike). MY body is not as durable or strong as it used to be. So, MY days of hiking long miles with a 45-65 pound pack are basically over. That doesn't mean that I am opposed to someone else carrying a 65 lb pack. Fortunately, I am also financially at the point where I can afford to buy lighter (and more expensive) equipment FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME IN MY ENTIRE LIFE! I used my first pack for 31 years--and I could still hike with it tomorrow. But it weighs close to 6 lbs. So, I have replaced it with a 25 ounce pack. I still have my very first "winter weight" sleeping bag. (On Christmas Day, I will have had it 35 years). It weighs over 5 lbs. I am replacing it with a 2 lb down bag that is rated for the same temp. I have cut my pack weight by almost 7.5 lbs. just by replacing those two items. Whenever I can find lighter and less bulky equipment I am switching to it---because (physically) I am being forced to make that change. With ultralight equipment, I can still do long hikes lasting weeks or months. Without the light equipment, I would be confined to just weekend hikes consisting of very limited mileage. I have become an ultralight hiker and a "gear junkie" out of necessity.
As I learn about hiking and gear - thanks for a thread that remind me that it is about MY hike - not someone else's hike -- I realize I need to pack for me to my weight needs and for my enjoyment.
PLEASE let spring come soon so I can get away from work and get outside!!!!!!!!
God, what an awesome series of threads!
fiddlehead
01-26-2009, 22:13
I skimmed through this thread. Seems to me people are complaining a bit about a company that is specializing in lightweight gear.
Brings to my mind a time when a bunch of us through hikers were writing letters to Wayne Gregory of Gregory packs trying to get his mind and gear to change over to lightweight packs or at least make one model.
He ignored us i guess and went from one of the top sellers in the market to one i rarely hear about anymore.
So, Go-lite comes along filling a huge need in the thru-hiking commmunity: mass producing lightweight yet strong packs, and now, people are complaining.
I wouldn't wish for the old days and the companies who wouldn't listen to our needs, it's much better having a company out there listening and trying.
And Go-lite does just that. I've been to their corporate headquarters when they were in Boulder and made suggestions on some of their gear and they listened.
They've also replaced my go-lite breeze when it started de-laminating and apologized and told me they switched fabrics because of the problem and the new one should be (and has been) ok.
Be glad there's a company like them around.
I have no complaints about GOLiTE. It's Backpackinglight (BPL), their magazine, and elite staff that seem to give rave reviews about their specifically endorsed UL equipment. They let Ryan Jordan review and give the last word on everything! The enticing adventure stories in their magazines direct the readers to UL gear lists. This gear was supplied to the adventurers in exchange for advertising and the readers are led to believe the gear was perfect.
SGT Rock
01-28-2009, 22:06
As a watcher of some of these threads, it is usually when an Ultra-Liter tries to convince someone they don't actually need a tent or boots to hike the trail. A few people come on to tell them that they have been hiking the trail for years with these things and haven't ever had a problem and feel the ultralighter is giving unwise and dangerous advice. The Ultralighter(s) defend their position and get labeled as overbearing.
This paradigm is a little old. I saw it more in the 90s - epic battles between the carriers of heavy multi-fuel stoves bent on having the ability to boil with any petroleum based fuel at 30,000' in subarctic weather (if they needed to) vs the guys with alcohol stoves made from beer cans. These days the scales are a little over the other way but some don't forget the old battles on the internet, just keep the fires burning. As more people learn those ultralighters may be onto something, there is less argument (really) than their use to be.
The funny thing is, there are still people that will lable you as an ultralighter for recommending alcohol stoves, running shoes, tarps, down quilts, or whatever - but I see even "normal" hikers using these sorts of things these days. I think is an old gear oriented way of labeling someone when you see someone using alcohol and decide he is an "ultralighter". I said this last year and took some flack for it - but I consider it an armature mistake to determine what sort of person a hiker is because of their gear.
flemdawg1, As far as ULing being commercial, sorry I don't see it. The main players are still cottage industries and MYOG, and probably will continue to be. ULing isn't attracting the big business Coleman's, Keltys and Walmart isn't stocking Silnylon tarps.I don't see the Ultra light hiking: Corporate whores? part, at all.
The mainstream is moving over to enjoying, and demanding, lightweight and ultralightweight gear. However, my Products: gear (http://www.ultralightbackpackingonline.info/gear1.html) webpage is almost entirely cottage-industry listing and businesses started by backpackers for backpackers.
I didn't plan it. I didn't select it that way, on purpose. But there it is.
The only corporate whoring I've seen are the ads for lightweight gear for a tent that weighs 8 lbs. and more, and like that. I'd say the corporate whores are the "big boys" in "the outdoor industry" trying to "cash in" on the demands of the consumers who are moving away from blind consumerism, without providing a quality lightweight product.
This happens because making things heavier than necessary is to avoid thinking hard about product design. The capable designers were not rewarded, so they became entrepreneurs.
If big business wants to "position" itself in this market economy, it will have to reward the capable inventors and the product designers and product engineers.
I once had a Kelty frame that I could have used for the saw. Unfortunately it blew off the back of a pickup truck, and was run over by a following car. I still have the frame, but I despair of straightening it enough to make is useable for carrying anything.
It's survived a number of trash removing episodes. But I'm strongly tempted to heave it when the next one comes around.
As for the grandkids, ultralight is a concept, I believe, for experienced hikers. None of my grandkids of pack-borrowing age qualify.
WearyPerhaps it would be best to wait until the corporate whore s start make chainsaw carrying packs as trendy as trekking poles and we all start carrying them whether we need them or not. You can borrow mine, if I am hiking the AT by then. ;)
I am in the process of switching to light and ultra-light equipment because it makes sense FOR ME at this point in my life (Hike Your Own Hike). MY body is not as durable or strong as it used to be. So, MY days of hiking long miles with a 45-65 pound pack are basically over. That doesn't mean that I am opposed to someone else carrying a 65 lb pack. Fortunately, I am also financially at the point where I can afford to buy lighter (and more expensive) equipment FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME IN MY ENTIRE LIFE! I used my first pack for 31 years--and I could still hike with it tomorrow. But it weighs close to 6 lbs. So, I have replaced it with a 25 ounce pack. I still have my very first "winter weight" sleeping bag. (On Christmas Day, I will have had it 35 years). It weighs over 5 lbs. I am replacing it with a 2 lb down bag that is rated for the same temp. I have cut my pack weight by almost 7.5 lbs. just by replacing those two items. Whenever I can find lighter and less bulky equipment I am switching to it---because (physically) I am being forced to make that change. With ultralight equipment, I can still do long hikes lasting weeks or months. Without the light equipment, I would be confined to just weekend hikes consisting of very limited mileage. I have become an ultralight hiker and a "gear junkie" out of necessity.While I might not disagree with HYOH, when did we start allowing underlining on this forum?
... and the tight little paragraphs. What's up with that?
I don't see the Ultra light hiking: Corporate whores? part, at all.
The mainstream is moving over to enjoying, and demanding, lightweight and ultralightweight gear. However, my Products: gear (http://www.ultralightbackpackingonline.info/gear1.html) webpage is almost entirely cottage-industry listing and businesses started by backpackers for backpackers.
I didn't plan it. I didn't select it that way, on purpose. But there it is.
The only corporate whoring I've seen are the ads for lightweight gear for a tent that weighs 8 lbs. and more, and like that. I'd say the corporate whores are the "big boys" in "the outdoor industry" trying to "cash in" on the demands of the consumers, who are moving away from blind consumerism, without providing a quality lightweight product.
This happens because making things heavier than necessary is to avoid thinking hard about product design. The capable designers were not rewarded, so they became entrepreneurs.
I wouldn't be careful about those cottage industry folks.
They may not be whores, but they are saucy little minks.