View Full Version : new gun laws
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20081205/ap_tr_ge/travel_brief_guns_national_parks
Pickleodeon
12-06-2008, 09:27
"An Interior Department rule issued Friday allows an individual to carry a loaded weapon in a park or wildlife refuge — but only if the person has a permit for a concealed weapon, and if the state where the park or refuge is located also allows loaded firearms in parks."
The state the park is in must allow the concealed carry though. Some states do not.. what's the word.. acknowledge other states' permits. So it may be valid in PA, but not NY, for instance. People who carry should check out the laws to be sure.
CaptChaos
12-06-2008, 16:18
Since the post on guns in National Parks was closed I wanted to answer the question that was posed to me when local law enforcement told me that they would not hike or camp in the park without a weapon.
What they were making reference to back then was the danger that you could find yourself in with the drug growers growing pot in the National Park.
I have no idea if this is true or not but the law enforcement officer that I talked to was in a gun store looking around with his uniform on and we got into this discussion.
As Tarpon said, what matters is between your ears and he is correct. Packing a gun does not make you smarter in fact in might make you less smart as you now think that can protect yourself. And if something did happen you might not act fast enough to do any good.
I can tell you all from experience that if you pull it you use it. If you pull it and all you intend to do is run your mouth your going to get yourself killed.
As you can search this website for my story when I was a much younger man, I had to pull a .45ACP Colt in self defense when my best friend and I were walking back to his house after plinking cans down by the creek.
The end result was that I thought that I had hit the person that had been shooting the 30.06 at us but think God I missed him. After that incident I put my guns away and for 30 years I left them in their boxes.
Times are getting hard now and crime is on the rise. You can try to ignore the fact and put your head under the pillow but it is still there. Home break-in's are on the rise, people kicking your door in and robbing the home owners are also occuring. Based on the fact that world is changing the remaining gun that I had came out of retirement.
If you want to carry a weapon or not is a personal issue. I would like to say that I don't want to but reality tells me that I might have to the next time out.
I was in a discussion the other day at work and someone said "Well, it's getting bad out there and if you have small children and you can't feed them you do whatever it takes to get by". Ok, I will buy that to a degree, but robbing your neighbor or robbing someone for their cash it's not right. It can't be justified in our culture just because you are out of work and can't feed your family.
One thing that we all have to remember is something that a person told me years ago. The law does not protect you. It only kicks in after the event or the crime. And if you think about it the statement is correct.
If you are robbed on the trail the law will not protect you. If a ranger was there when it happened he might be able to assist you or protect you but in most cases he comes after the fact to correct the fact that the law has been broken and a crime has been committed.
There is no way when you are at Spence Field shelter in the Smokies and someone decides to rob you, hurt you, or kill your just for giggles that the ranger sitting down at the Cades Cove Ranger Station is going to be able to do anything about it until he hears about the event.
Odds are this thread will be closed as well so you any of you have any questions then just send me a PM and I will answer it for you.
John
I haven't closed this thread yet, but I want to offer up this thought.
NO ONE is going to change the opinion of others who disagree about gun control on an internet forum. The only thing that will happen is a lot of finger pointing and name calling.
If that occurs, I will close the thread because, quite frankly, I'm a volunteer with a life beyond cyberhiking, and I will NOT sit here and babysit adults who should know how to behave. CaptChaos, please know I am NOT directing this statement at you.
I am leaving this thread open so others can be aware of the new law and how it may affect those who hike and otherwise visit our national parks. Please keep this on this topic, so it may actually serve a useful purpose.
Let me follow up Bearpaw's post by saying I am in total agreement. I am challenging folks here to stick to the topic. Easy to do.
Withholding response out of respect for my fellow moderator.
Folks, remember, this thread needs to be about he issues specific to the new law pertaining to carrying in National Parks.
In Tennessee for example, a handgun carry permit costs $80. This is paid after the applicant has completed a training program which covers laws pertaining to carrying and the use of force as well as actually firing the weapon and showing a basic degree of competence in shootting and cleaning and storing the weapon. These courses often run another $100. I was fortunate that having qualified with the weapon while in the military meant I was waived from completing such a course.
The certification allows Tennessee residents to carry in Tennessee state parks. THUS, a TN HCP holder could carry a concealed handgun in those National Parks found within Tennessee, such as Shiloh National Military Park.
HOWEVER, is Great Smoky Mountains National Park open to concealed carry? I'm not 100% sure since much of the park in also in NC, and I can't find out if NC allow concealed in its state parks.
THIS is the kind of debate I'm looking for in this thread.
Other comments that sidetrack this information will be deleted since many here have shown they can not maintain a civil discussion involving firearms.
CT LAW
I found this quick guide to getting a permit in CT. It is interesting that other states honor the CT permit (but only TN along the AT corridor), yet CT does not honor any other state permits. (http://www.carryconcealed.net/connecticut)
How to Get a Permit to Carry a Concealed Weapon in Connecticut
By eHow Legal Editor
http://www.ehow.com/how_2061092_get-permit-carry-concealed-weapon.html
Connecticut is not a true "shall-issue" state that issues a pistol permit to anyone meeting a specific set of requirements. Instead, it has a suitability clause that is interpreted by the issuing agency. The following steps will help you get a carry and conceal weapon (CCW) permit in Connecticut.
Step 1
Apply for a temporary state permit from your city of residence. You will need to satisfy authorities that you are "suitable" to carry a handgun. The issuing authority can deny your permit for any reason as long as it is not arbitrary or capricious about it. You also will need to pass a state background check. This can take up to two months.
Step 2
Take an approved firearm training course given by the NRA or a state certified instructor.
Step 3
Apply for your state permit if you are a resident at any Connecticut State Police licensing station within 60 days after you are issued your temporary state permit. If you are not a resident, call the Special License and Firearms Unit at (860) 685-8494 for a non-resident application.
Step 4
Provide the application, two fingerprint cards, two copies of your birth certificate or passport and your firearms training certificate if you are a resident of Connecticut.
Step 5
Pay the fees for the permit and the fingerprints. The permit is good for five years. You are still prohibited from carrying a firearm to any school or school sponsored activity.
CT STATE LAW RESOURCE;
http://www.ct.gov/dps/cwp/view.asp?a=2158&Q=294502&dpsNav=|#instructions
An update to the law as it pertains to the AT. The most recent information I can find on Virginia concealed carry laws state that concealed carry is NOT allowed in Virginia state parks. Therefore, concealed carry would NOT be allowed in Shenandoah National Park for concealed carry permit holders.
If any one can determine if NC does or does not allow concealed carry in parks, it would help determine law's application to GSMNP.
Homer&Marje
12-07-2008, 13:36
The North Carolina General Assembly enacted a concealed handgun law that allows qualifying citizens of North Carolina the opportunity to obtain a permit to carry a concealed handgun. This law became effective on December 1,1995, and requires that the permit be secured from the sheriff of the permittee's county of residence. Once issued, the permit is valid throughout the state for a period of five years, unless it has been revoked.
As of August 14, 2003, North Carolina law allows residents of other states who have a Concealed Handgun Permit issued by their state to carry concealed handguns in North Carolina if the person's state also grants the same privilege to North Carolinians. Click here for more information on reciprocity agreements (http://www.ncdoj.com/law_enforcement/cle_handguns_reciprocity.jsp) with other states.
http://apps.carryconcealed.net/packngo/results.php?ps=33&nrp=N&nrps=&states=georgia,southcarolina,northcarolina,virgini a,maryland,newjersey,pennsylvania,newyork,connecti cut,massachusetts,newhampshire,maine,vermont,
I hope that link works. It's a trip planner with all the states on the AT marked off and if you could hike with a NC permit all the way. I unfortunately found limited info on the NPS laws.
Homer&Marje
12-07-2008, 13:38
Tennessee now included.
http://apps.carryconcealed.net/packngo/results.php?ps=33&nrp=N&nrps=&states=georgia,southcarolina,northcarolina,tenness ee,virginia,maryland,newjersey,newyork,connecticut ,pennsylvania,massachusetts,newhampshire,vermont,m aine,
Thank you Homer. I've looked around some this morning myself.
I've seen MANY different interpretations of the law, but I try to stick with the actual law to see what it specifies.
Virgninia's law clearly states concealed carry is NOT allowed in state parks.
Tennessee changed the law this past summer so concealed carry IS allowed in state parks.
But I haven't been able to find specifics about NC and its state parks. Since half of GSMNP is in NC, the overall impact of the law remains clear as mud to me.
Feral Bill
12-07-2008, 15:48
So, in the Smokies, it depends on which side of the trail you're on?
4eyedbuzzard
12-07-2008, 17:47
These two websites offer information, maps. etc, regarding reciprocity agreements on concealed weapon carry between different states.*
http://www.carryconcealed.net/
http://www.handgunlaw.us/
*Fine print disclaimer: As with any advice that may be legal in nature, verify this on your own. You alone are responsible for ensuring you are in compliance with the law.
An update to the law as it pertains to the AT. The most recent information I can find on Virginia concealed carry laws state that concealed carry is NOT allowed in Virginia state parks. Therefore, concealed carry would NOT be allowed in Shenandoah National Park for concealed carry permit holders.
If any one can determine if NC does or does not allow concealed carry in parks, it would help determine law's application to GSMNP.
Who has jurisdiction over Shenandoah since it is a NATIONAL park, not a STATE park?
Who has jurisdiction over Shenandoah since it is a NATIONAL park, not a STATE park?
In looking through the laws related to this, the original draft specified that if the state in which the park was located allowed concealed carry in its state parks, then concealed carry would also be allowed in the National Parks. So the federal law essentially leaves the question up to the states.
I'm pretty sure it also means that if the state you are in (inside a national park) does NOT recognize your state's concealed firearms permit, you would not be able to carry. So the number of people and number of parks that concealed carry would apply to is still fairly small.
This may change. Tennessee passed legislation allowing concealed carry in state parks, in part due to this bill which was debated for over a year before becoming law.
taildragger
12-07-2008, 19:26
Why not contact GSNP and see if its allowed, or only allowed on one side.
So, in the Smokies, it depends on which side of the trail you're on?
It's a great question.
I looked over many different states and the particulars of this new law for a couple of hours this morning.
A Knoxville newspaper declared that firearms would soon be allowed in the Smokies. But gave no supporting details.
One source said the state parks issues had been eliminated and that if the state allowed concealed carry, then guns would be allowed in national parks regardless of whether the state allows them in its state parks. But the site did not offer any actual verbage from the actual law, so I was hesitant to buy into the claim.
HOWEVER, I just found this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28072607/) and it corroborates the earlier information. It appears that if the state allows concealed handgun permits, regardless of whether the state allows concealed carry in its state parks, concealed carry WILL be allowed in national parks when the law goes into effect January 1st.
So, if in fact this law does NOT include the state parks proviso (and it seems it doesn't), concealed carry will be legal for those with a valid state concealed carry permit in both Great Smoky Mountains National Park AND in Shenandoah National Park.
At least this is what I gather from the most current info I've seen on this topic.
rootball
12-07-2008, 19:59
Federal law allows that a legally owned firearm can be transported from state to state 'without the intent to go armed" -- ammo in the trunk, gun in the front. But what if your mode of transportation is two feet and a backpack? How would you satisfy the 'intent to go armed' rule?
taildragger
12-07-2008, 20:01
Federal law allows that a legally owned firearm can be transported from state to state 'without the intent to go armed" -- ammo in the trunk, gun in the front. But what if your mode of transportation is two feet and a backpack? How would you satisfy the 'intent to go armed' rule?
Ammo in the pack, gun on your person :welcome
Actually, I have no clue, its just what made sense, and is therefore probably not right at all.
4eyedbuzzard
12-07-2008, 22:40
Federal law allows that a legally owned firearm can be transported from state to state 'without the intent to go armed" -- ammo in the trunk, gun in the front. But what if your mode of transportation is two feet and a backpack? How would you satisfy the 'intent to go armed' rule?
You can't. The law only allows transporting the firearm in a vehicle.
Folks, please remember that this thread is considered a straight-forward one regarding the carry law in national parks and how it applies to the AT corridor.
troglobil
12-10-2008, 10:50
its in the general catagory, not straight forward. Maybe it should be moved.
BTW thanks for the pack -n -go link Homer.
Having talked to the mods in the Straight-Forward Forum, I am moving this thread to that forum.
4eyedbuzzard
12-10-2008, 16:29
Just FWIW,
Given that this change in regulation goes into effect Jan 1, and a new Secretary of the Interior will be appointed and take office January 20 with the incoming administration, and that said Secretary has the authorty to change this regulation, and that the new administration's views on firearms in National Parks may differ from the current administration's, this repeal of the firearms ban could be very short lived.
This regulation could easily change as follows: The new Secretary could publish a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking in the Federal Register, allow typically 60 days for comment and hearings, and then change the regulation, by issuing/publishing a formal decision, which amends the Dept of Interiors regulations, generally published in the Code of Federal Regulations and becoming law in 30 days. (Which, by the way, is exactly how it was recently repealed.)
I don't wish to debate the politics of this, just pointing out that this is a regulation, enacted by the Secretary under his/her authority under a broader legislative act, not a legislative act (requiring Congressional vote) in itself.
Lrg 50KR
12-13-2008, 09:38
Please re-check your read of Virginia law, from the state parks rules and regulations at http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/state_parks/faq.shtml#r&r
"Firearms: Law enforcement officers and those with a concealed weapons permit may carry firearms. During hunts, hunters may have firearms, which should be unloaded and properly stored when outside designated hunt areas. Target shooting is prohibited. Air guns are prohibited."
Lone Wolf
12-13-2008, 11:18
there's a CCW course being given next thursday night here in town and will be taught by our police chief. members of the volunteer rescue squad, which i'm a member, get it for free. all others $50. lotsa good sales on handguns at local shops too. i know what i'm gettin' for x-mas :)
Bulldawg
12-13-2008, 20:58
there's a CCW course being given next thursday night here in town and will be taught by our police chief. members of the volunteer rescue squad, which i'm a member, get it for free. all others $50. lotsa good sales on handguns at local shops too. i know what i'm gettin' for x-mas :)
Sweet!! Glad to see the law enforcement backing getting people armed. You'd think that would be a good sign that law enforcement supports CCW, since it decreases crime and all.
Folks, please remember that this thread is considered a straight-forward one regarding the carry law in national parks and how it applies to the AT corridor.
The opening message was simply an AP story announcing the new rules. When was it decided that the AP story only warranted discussion of the AT. I would think that by ordinary straight forward standards all the implications of the AP account would be straight forward, such as whether such a change is wise and whether it is likely to survive a new administration with different ideas.
Rules properly adopted by administrative agencies are in fact laws. But laws enacted by such agencies are more easily changed by an incoming administrations, than laws adopted by Congress.
Weary
Homer&Marje
12-14-2008, 10:29
Sweet!! Glad to see the law enforcement backing getting people armed. You'd think that would be a good sign that law enforcement supports CCW, since it decreases crime and all.
I highly doubt that more people being armed will "Decrease" crime, but maybe it will. Definitely will increase accidents, there's no need for CCW in National Parks. As it is in 2006 in the United States alone a child died every 2 days due to a misfired weapon.
But go ahead. Make the country safer.
(Not stating that the Law Enforcement are not running a perfectly valid and upstanding CCW Course.)
I keep thinking of the football player who accidently shot himself in the thigh, contrary to New York law, and for the violation now may go to jail. I'm among those who think the rule will be repealed or modified by the new administration. If it remains on the books, more people probably will be hurt or killed by allowing carrying, than saved by carrying. Otherwise it is still unclear to me what the rule requires inorder to carry on the trail. Most states have permit systems for concealed weapons. Maine has a concealed weapons permit system. I approved a dozen or more of them in my small town while serving on a three-member governing board (Board of Selectmen). Carrying in state parks changes from park to park and year to year as I understand it. Some parks permit hunting and some don't.
Weary
john gault
12-14-2008, 11:44
I highly doubt that more people being armed will "Decrease" crime, but maybe it will. Definitely will increase accidents, there's no need for CCW in National Parks. As it is in 2006 in the United States alone a child died every 2 days due to a misfired weapon.
But go ahead. Make the country safer.
(Not stating that the Law Enforcement are not running a perfectly valid and upstanding CCW Course.)
I keep thinking of the football player who accidently shot himself in the thigh, contrary to New York law, and for the violation now may go to jail.
Clueless
saimyoji
12-14-2008, 11:45
I keep thinking of the football player who accidently shot himself in the thigh, contrary to New York law, and for the violation now may go to jail.
uhhh....yeah....break the law, go to jail....something wrong with that?
Homer&Marje
12-15-2008, 08:48
I keep thinking of the football player who accidently shot himself in the thigh, contrary to New York law, and for the violation now may go to jail. I'm among those who think the rule will be repealed or modified by the new administration. If it remains on the books, more people probably will be hurt or killed by allowing carrying, than saved by carrying. Otherwise it is still unclear to me what the rule requires inorder to carry on the trail. Most states have permit systems for concealed weapons. Maine has a concealed weapons permit system. I approved a dozen or more of them in my small town while serving on a three-member governing board (Board of Selectmen). Carrying in state parks changes from park to park and year to year as I understand it. Some parks permit hunting and some don't.
Weary
Plexico Burress is gonna start a team in jail while he's there. It's rumored that Michael Vick and O.J. are gonna play on the team too:D
Clueless
In actuality I'm pretty well read on the topic.
Silver Bear
12-15-2008, 17:54
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/dec/15/guns-allowed-smokies-starting-january/
In January 2009 you can carry in the Smokies, as long as you have a state carry permit.
4eyedbuzzard
12-16-2008, 00:39
President elect Obama's pick for Interior Secretary is Ken Salazar, a reasonably firearm friendly Democrat US Senator from Colorado, who has stood up for concealed carry rights in Colorado.
le loupe
12-16-2008, 00:54
As it is in 2006 in the United States alone a child died every 2 days due to a misfired weapon.
wrong!
HikerRanky
12-16-2008, 01:33
That the focus of this thread is about the right to carry in national parks ONLY.... it is not to discuss violation of firearms laws in other states, or to debate the validity of statistics.
Op ed in the Bangor, ME paper today by a Friends of Acadia person in regards to ANP.
Was describing a sixty day application process thru Acadia NP. I have not read of this before. The different parks need to decide on a uniform policy, if this is true.
Lone Wolf
12-19-2008, 10:01
there's a CCW course being given next thursday night here in town and will be taught by our police chief. members of the volunteer rescue squad, which i'm a member, get it for free. all others $50. lotsa good sales on handguns at local shops too. i know what i'm gettin' for x-mas :)
fun and infomative course