View Full Version : Lets Talk Winter
mtnkngxt
01-10-2009, 13:44
I'll admit I am not a big fan of winter camping, I love the cold but it just seems to stress me out. I am however going to attend the HF winter hangout. I cannot for the life of me decide how to stay warm. So far I have Wigwam sock liners and smart wool socks. Midweight long underwear and a Good Winter Jacket. So my question is what are some good waterproof outer pants and a good liner shirt for winter. I sleep warm but I can get cold during the day. I also have a good wool beanie and neck sock.
I've been out quite a bit lately, in various dress, and activity levels, including hiking in shorts and backyard sleeps. I get cold also, and often quite achy the next day. I'm coming to the conclusion that you have to mix it up a bit. It's ok to underdress some of the time, but you also have to overdress some of the time, even to the point of sweating a little as long as you manage it. Also, in general in cold weather you want to pace yourself in order to conserve your energy for when you may need it, but its also worth increasing your activity to a decent level, even for just 30 minutes, in order to get the body really warmed up and breathing right. So its not just the clothes and food, but what you do with them. Pace yourself, and dress warm, but mix it up a bit also. Give your body time to condition itself, but you gotta give it some exposure and some exercise also, and don't be afraid to sweat a little now and then, as long as you can still dry out. Wool is very good that way. Sweat it up a little now and then, then let it breathe a little to dry out.
Hikes in Rain
01-10-2009, 13:56
Worst part of winter camping is coffee. I can say warm (at the expense of a light pack). I can accept ice crystals developing in my formerly hot dinner before I finish it. What I can't accept is the coffee getting ice cold before it's finished steeping.
Cold coffee....bleah. Reheated, destroying the delicate oils and turning it into sludge....bleah. Haven't found an acceptable solution yet.
I guess I'm rather fortunate that way in not being able to make a really decent cup to start with. It's a real treat when I come across a real aficionado though. I'm not an artist, but I know what I like. Hot drinks in winter can also include tea, with milk and honey, and also hot lemonaid and other citrus drinks. Hot soup is great also for rehydrating and reheating. I hike solo, but always bring a pot in winter. Mugs aren't big enough.
That might help your coffee problem. A bigger mug, then toss the bottom half.
Starting a fire and using a small hobbo stove is tougher when its really cold. You have to pay a little more attention to preparation. Carry enough tinder and kindling for the next pot of coffee. Even a Kelly Kettle can be tougher when its really cold, and its no good for melting snow or ice if it comes to that. From an experience last winter I am carrying a full sized bic lighter this winter. Easier on the cold fingers. This winter I carry big bic, and small bic as spare, matches also, a long beeswax candle, enough birch bark and spruce sticks for the next fire, an opinel#7 knife, and often a hatchet also though it doesn't get used really. Still working on a flint and steel and char making kit, just because. Not happy with the magnesium type firestarters.
mtnkngxt
01-10-2009, 14:17
Huh? Coffee?
Tipi Walter
01-10-2009, 14:40
I'll admit I am not a big fan of winter camping, I love the cold but it just seems to stress me out. I am however going to attend the HF winter hangout. I cannot for the life of me decide how to stay warm. So far I have Wigwam sock liners and smart wool socks. Midweight long underwear and a Good Winter Jacket. So my question is what are some good waterproof outer pants and a good liner shirt for winter. I sleep warm but I can get cold during the day. I also have a good wool beanie and neck sock.
For winter I carry a pair of old North Face goretex rain pants with a simple black nylon lining. Just this little bit of lining makes them a "winter pant". I always wear a pair of Icebreaker merino bottoms underneath. For serious winter treks some people go with the quilted style down pants: worth checking out if you get cold legs in camp.
I've divided layers into four categories:
Layer one: thin silk turtleneck under a poly t-shirt
Layer two: Icebreaker merino tops, two sandwiched together(a medium under a large)
Layer three: Arcteryx Delta fleece zip up jacket...very warm
Layer four: North Face goose down Nupste jacket.
Base layer
Midlayer
Outer layer
Extreme layer
Four basic layers. Anyway, to stay really warm in the winter requires, beyond the usual down bag/decent pad and stout shelter, a beefy down jacket. The best are works of art, like the Marmot 8000M parka, the Feathered Friends Rock and Ice parka and their Icefall parka. These items will keep most people warm in the winter. The ultralight types won't carry them, heck the Rock and Ice weighs around 3 pounds, but we're talking access to real warmth here.
mtnkngxt
01-10-2009, 15:03
Thats exactly what I was looking for thank you.
For extreme conditions its good to have even coverage, like an inch, or even just half an inch, as long s its reasonably even coverage including legs and hands and face and head. You can delayer unevenly, so you don't have to put as much back in the pack on most days, but for the extreme when you are wearing everything its best if its more or less even. So a complete system that involves 2" on top and only 1/2" on your bum and legs when you are wearing everything might not be best for the extreme, even though its plenty comfortable for many conditions and activities. Whether you need 1/2" or 1" or 1-1/2" for the extreme depends on how extreme your extreme is, and how long you might be in it, and what level of activity you can sustain while your in it. For extremes above 0F I don't think down clothing is called for unless you are doing alot of standing around for long periods of exposure. For extremes of -20F below some down might make sense but you might get by with fleece and wool for a day or two as long as you are able to sustain long periods of activity while out and about and have a good sleep system for getting warmed back up and rested. I think the mix of down and fleece and wool and skin layers depends on the total thickness you need, and the total thickness depends on how cold it is, how long you will be exposed, and what level of activity you can sustain for long periods, even days. Personally I think its good idea to have enough clothing to be able to stop and rest and get warmed back up without having to crawl into your shelter and sleep system, but there are many systems and solutions. Also, what's best for deep wood that can still see -30F for days might be different than systems for -30F in exposed areas up above the treeline, which might also persist for days. Above the treeline, I think having more down makes sense. Below the treeline I think more wool makes sense. But I think a mix is always good, as is keeping options open like retaining some mobility, but also being able to make fire and shelter. Above the treeline getting down below the treeline is a good strategy, but its not always possible to do so. In the woods at -30F mobility is also good, to get out, but its not always possible to do so in a hurry. Being able to make fire and shelter isn't always possible either.
I think shelter and sleep systems are important, as is fire, but I depend mostly on clothing and food, and recent practice in knowing how much is enough for me, for long periods of exposure.
StubbleJumper
01-10-2009, 23:36
For extreme conditions its good to have even coverage, like an inch, or even just half an inch, as long s its reasonably even coverage including legs and hands and face and head. You can delayer unevenly, so you don't have to put as much back in the pack on most days, but for the extreme when you are wearing everything its best if its more or less even. So a complete system that involves 2" on top and only 1/2" on your bum and legs when you are wearing everything might not be best for the extreme, even though its plenty comfortable for many conditions and activities. Whether you need 1/2" or 1" or 1-1/2" for the extreme depends on how extreme your extreme is, and how long you might be in it, and what level of activity you can sustain while your in it. For extremes above 0F I don't think down clothing is called for unless you are doing alot of standing around for long periods of exposure. For extremes of -20F below some down might make sense but you might get by with fleece and wool for a day or two as long as you are able to sustain long periods of activity while out and about and have a good sleep system for getting warmed back up and rested. I think the mix of down and fleece and wool and skin layers depends on the total thickness you need, and the total thickness depends on how cold it is, how long you will be exposed, and what level of activity you can sustain for long periods, even days. Personally I think its good idea to have enough clothing to be able to stop and rest and get warmed back up without having to crawl into your shelter and sleep system, but there are many systems and solutions. Also, what's best for deep wood that can still see -30F for days might be different than systems for -30F in exposed areas up above the treeline, which might also persist for days. Above the treeline, I think having more down makes sense. Below the treeline I think more wool makes sense. But I think a mix is always good, as is keeping options open like retaining some mobility, but also being able to make fire and shelter. Above the treeline getting down below the treeline is a good strategy, but its not always possible to do so. In the woods at -30F mobility is also good, to get out, but its not always possible to do so in a hurry. Being able to make fire and shelter isn't always possible either.
I think shelter and sleep systems are important, as is fire, but I depend mostly on clothing and food, and recent practice in knowing how much is enough for me, for long periods of exposure.
You're bang-on. I was out snowshoeing today and it was 5F, and I was sweating with expedition weight capilene long underwear and a merino wool sweater. I had a 100 weight fleece and a goretex shell in my day pack and I never took them out. The bad part of sweating is that there comes a critical point where you are so wet that you are no longer in a position to stop for more than 3 or 4 minutes....hypothermia can be a risk.
Anyway, every winter day in the woods is a good day.
buckwheat
01-11-2009, 10:10
In the woods at -30F mobility is also good, to get out, but its not always possible to do so in a hurry.
Thankfully, unless you are doing some serious mountaineering, you will never encounter these conditions south of the Arctic circle. If you are merely hiking, at normal altitudes, you will encounter conditions of this sort maybe once in 100 years and they would never be sustained.
Tipi Walter
01-11-2009, 10:17
Thankfully, unless you are doing some serious mountaineering, you will never encounter these conditions south of the Arctic circle. If you are merely hiking, at normal altitudes, you will encounter conditions of this sort maybe once in 100 years and they would never be sustained.
I've done most of my 1970s, '80s, and '90s backpacking in and around Boone, NC in the mountains and you're right, just once in all that time did I get hit with -28 below. It was in January of 1985. I was living out of my backpack and none of my gear was made for such a storm. In '82 I spent the winter living in a tarp and for a week the temps dipped to -10 with blowing snow but nothing was like that -28 degrees.
Ramble~On
01-11-2009, 10:48
Leave the cotton at home....except for the trusty bandana.
Tipi covered it pretty well. LAYERS are the way to go.
I have never been dissatisfied with anything from Arcteryx.
There are many companies turning out some quality clothing for the outdoors and each year it seems to get better and lighter. :)
Alpaca socks are worth looking into for winter.
REI is having a mighty fine sale right now as are most gear retailers.
We are on the coast, and we can count on -15F a few times each winter in December, January, February. Once every 10 years we get -30F, which is about -34C. Here is an example...
http://www.climate.weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/climateData/hourlydata_e.html?timeframe=1&Prov=XX&StationID=6250&Year=1989&Month=12&Day=30
Last February I went out for a cold morning walk and breakfast, just to test some clothing layers and see what it was like to try and make breakfast. My small lighter took alot of effort, and my hobo stove was too small. I would have had to have built a small fire if I had been out for real. The clothing was enough as long as I kept moving, but I was gradually getting chilled. 48 hours of that would have been a test. I'm just looking again to see how cold it was...
http://www.climate.weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/climateData/hourlydata_e.html?timeframe=1&Prov=XX&StationID=6250&Year=2007&Month=2&Day=7
-25C if that was the day. I think it was. You can see at 0800 the temperature drops, but that is because the intrument at the airport is at 3m, and when the sun comes up it mixes the air a bit, so down at ground level where people are it is actually a couple of degrees colder at night than what the airport records. -25C is -13F. Personally I think anything below 0F starts getting serious when its all day and night, and you have to be a little better prepared and practiced for things like making meals and going to the bathroom and setting up and taking down camp and changing clothes, especially if there is much wind. I know I don't have much practice in the woods below 0F, but I've walked to school and changed tires in it, and boosted batteries, and shovelled out cars and stuff, but that's only an hour or so at a time. All day and night and the next day in the woods would be different. Top of a mountain? Ouch.
So yeah, -30F is rare, though it happens. -15F is common though, and -0F is bad enough.
Climate data is really useful, and I think more useful than weather forecasts. Best to be prepared for both.
Leave the cotton at home....except for the trusty bandana.
Tipi covered it pretty well. LAYERS are the way to go.
I have never been dissatisfied with anything from Arcteryx.
There are many companies turning out some quality clothing for the outdoors and each year it seems to get better and lighter. :)
Alpaca socks are worth looking into for winter.
REI is having a mighty fine sale right now as are most gear retailers.I have an alpaca hat with ear flaps I really like, and an alpaca neck/face tube. With alpaca you don't need fleece liners. Its better without the fleece. You see alot now with the fleece. I have alpaca gloves and they are really fluffy and warm, but I think the regular sheeps wool mitts are better for most conditions where hands are concerned. For feet, I think different wools are good. I haven't tried alpaca. I like having no two pair of socks the same. Some thin, some thick, some smartwool, some plain of knit sheeps wool ski socks.
Ramble~On
01-11-2009, 11:16
A friend hooked me up with an Alpaca hat as a birthday present last year. It has ear flaps and is really warm. The week before this a woman that I work with hand made me an Alpaca winter hat of her own design. It fully covers the ears and back of my neck. Great people are great!
I think the company is Dalhgren ? They have a couple different types of Alpaca socks and for winter I wear a thicker pair. Since trying them they are all I wear in winter.
My feet are very happy. The rest of the year I wear either merino wool or Ingenious socks with the sewn in liners.
I grew up in the northern climes of Quebec, the Northwest Territories, British Columbia, Yukon, etc. (My Dad was in the pulp and paper industry, so the family moved around a lot.). It became second nature dressing for the temperature conditions. Layering clothes is a most positive way to go. One can add or take away clothes as needed trying to maintain the optimum core temperature. Anyway, wool, silk, down, were the norm then.
Several January's ago I spent a week in the Mahoosic Range. My outdoor tramping clothes consisted of silk liner socks, 2 wool socks, silk longies, wool longies, waterproof insulated pants, silk turtleneck, wool shirt, wool sweater, down jacket, waterproof outer shell, baklava, wool hat, silk gloves, wool gloves, polypropylene and wool mix mitts.
We base camped and did daily forays so I seldom wore my insulated pants or down parka or mitts except in camp at night. It was a great time. We even made it through an ice storm on the last day as we headed back into New Hampshire.
Lots of good information from all the folks. Good luck.
PS: Plastic Coleman insulated cup for the hot drinks. mmmmmm coffee!
I think the company is Dalhgren ? They have a couple different types of Alpaca socks and for winter I wear a thicker pair. .
I had a pair of those several years back. Quality sock. My opinion.
-30 is common here far from the arctic and 1500 ft el I will second the idea of periods of exertion this forces the body to send blood to the hands and feet. I do carpenter work outside and am not shut down until -35 to 40 I find to wear the thin gloves to be able to work I must be sweating under the arms. For food or drink in the cold nothing beats the jetboil insulated pot eat or drink from the pot and fast you could buy a spare cup and double up on the insulation for extreme conditions maybe cut a circle of foam pad for the lid it could double as a base to set on snow
Hikes in Rain
01-11-2009, 14:55
Love the insulated mug idea. Coffee, hot water, let it steep and pour. Great idea (as the light bulb turns on). I usually make cowboy coffee, and kept looking around for spare clothes to improvise a cozy for my pot. Always turned out I was wearing everything!
Jak, can U explain the having more down above treeline makes sense and wool making more sense below treeline reasoning? Just not really sure where U R coming from with those conclusions. I'm thinking U may be referring to down's exceptional warmth to wt. ratio being better suited for the more exposed possibly colder windier conditions often experienced above treeline. And, R U just making a comparison between down and wool or other fabrics too? Excuse me for the brain fog. Thanx.
SpiritWind, give us the low down on Alpaca. Why do U switch from merino wool or ingenius socks w/ a liner to Alpaca in winter? Do U feel the Alpaca is warmer than the merino when comparing like wt. and content socks in the two materials? Does comfort also play a role in your choice? What has been your experience w/ the durability of the Dahlgren? Alpaca socks. I have a 100 % Alpaca Turtle Fir beanie. Wow, it's warm, super soft, and comfortable. And, I don't know if this has to do with Alpaca or not, but I've never experienced static electricity in the beanie/my hair with a Alpaca beanie. Thanx.
Starting a fire and using a small hobbo stove is tougher when its really cold. You have to pay a little more attention to preparation. Carry enough tinder and kindling for the next pot of coffee. Even a Kelly Kettle can be tougher when its really cold, and its no good for melting snow or ice if it comes to that. From an experience last winter I am carrying a full sized bic lighter this winter. Easier on the cold fingers. This winter I carry big bic, and small bic as spare, matches also, a long beeswax candle, enough birch bark and spruce sticks for the next fire, an opinel#7 knife, and often a hatchet also though it doesn't get used really. Still working on a flint and steel and char making kit, just because. Not happy with the magnesium type firestarters.
Yeah, love a small warming fire in winter. So does several of my fleeces, a pair of pants, a down jacket, a down sleeping bag, several pairs of wool socks, a vest, and a bivy sack. I'll never forget the odor of burning merino wool as long as I live!
Ramble~On
01-12-2009, 08:16
Alpaca socks. I think most would agree with the insulating properties of wool, comfort and durability. Alpaca is no different. Since I tried the Alpaca socks I've been hooked. When I wear a thicker pair of Alpaca socks in winter I don't have to worry about having cold toes. They hold up really well - I have a couple years on my original pair and they don't show any signs of need of geriatric care.
Comfort - maybe it's me but I'd gamble to say that if you try them you'll like them too. I almost always carry an extra pair of socks - on 3-4 day hikes I've noticed I don't need to change, I wear the same pair the whole time.
http://www.dahlgrenfootwear.com/sockpage_start.shtml
http://www.gatewayalpacas.com/alpaca/alpaca-fiber/fiber-overview.htm
buckwheat
01-12-2009, 08:49
http://www.gatewayalpacas.com/alpaca/alpaca-fiber/fiber-overview.htm
Check out this description:
CONTENT:
Toe and Heel: 45% Alpaca, 45% Merino wool, 10% Nylon; Arch/Instep: 75% DriSpunTM Hydrophobic Yarns, 25% Nylon; Leg: 90% DriSpunTM Hydrophobic Yarns, 10% Nylon.
Dude, these yarns are hydrophobic. They're SCARED of moisture!
Now that's my kinda sock!
buckwheat
01-12-2009, 08:58
http://www.dahlgrenfootwear.com/sockpage_start.shtml
It's a shame about this company. They have tremendous sock designs, but you cannot find their socks anywhere, and for whatever reason, they do not sell direct.
They list a plethora of online distributors, but most of these carry one, maybe two of the Dahlgren sock designs ... if they even have any in stock. REI had none in stock online.
If the Dahlgren people are watching ... you really need to open up an Amazon.com location, or something. I want to buy your socks ... but can't.
Jak, can U explain the having more down above treeline makes sense and wool making more sense below treeline reasoning? Just not really sure where U R coming from with those conclusions. I'm thinking U may be referring to down's exceptional warmth to wt. ratio being better suited for the more exposed possibly colder windier conditions often experienced above treeline. And, R U just making a comparison between down and wool or other fabrics too? Excuse me for the brain fog. Thanx.Which is heavier, a pound of hatchet or a pound of feathers?
Above the treeline is characterized by more exposure to wind, lower humidity, and unavailability of wood. Below the treeline is characterized by less exposure to wind, higher humidity, and availability of wood. Down is very light, but requires at least one extra shell layer, and the shells can't be removed, and you still need some other layers, and you can't really wear down without at least a baselayer. Wool and fleece only require the outer shell in extreme conditions, and that shell can be removed in less that extreme conditions, and your baselayer can be removed also. Wool can absorb more moisture than fleece, which is both good and bad. Wool is more fire resistant, but also makes fire somewhat neccessary. Wool is better for layers that don't need to be removed. Fleece is better for layers that can be removed. Down is better when you need to add 1/2" or more. Skin layers can be wool or polyester or silk, and it doesn't matter too much which. A mix of wool and fleece and skin layers and light wind and rain shells are useful to mix and match year round down to 20degF, even 0degF. For extremes to below 0degF above the treeline it often makes sense to replace some of the wool and fleece thickness with Down. For extremes to below 0degF below the treeline it often makes more sense to go with enough wool and down for most conditions at rest, and extreme conditions with some light to moderate activity, and to make use of a fire when prolonged exposure to such extremes require you to dry out some of the layers and stop and rest. In the woods, a one pound hatchet is often better insurance than a pound of feathers. On most trips it doesn't really get used, but the same must be said of the extra clothing that must be carried. In the mountains, I would sooner take the pound of feathers.
typo:
For extremes to below 0degF below the treeline it often makes more sense to go with enough wool and fleece for most conditions at rest, ...
Another SOBO this year taught me an awesome thing to do with tea, that seemed obvious once he showed me.
Use regular black tea, add powdered milk and cinnamon. YUM!! This stuff is delicious and I was already carrying milk and why not pick up a little cinnamon. The stuff was super light and made for a great tasty treat.
If it is really cold, a big poofy jacket is a must because you can take it off when needed. I usually wear a t-shirt/thermal layer, a lighweight wool sweater or fleece, a hooded sweatshirt and then my poofy jacket('poofy' is a Boone term). I like fleece but it tends to overheat me.
For lowers, thermal long johns and jeans work for me.
LIhikers
01-12-2009, 20:37
.....what are some good waterproof outer pants ......
I used Marmot Precip pants on a recent dog sled camping trip in northern Minnesota as an outer layer over long underwear, and fleece pants. They're waterproof and windproof and worked well.
theinfamousj
01-12-2009, 22:44
Another SOBO this year taught me an awesome thing to do with tea, that seemed obvious once he showed me.
Use regular black tea, add powdered milk and cinnamon. YUM!! This stuff is delicious and I was already carrying milk and why not pick up a little cinnamon. The stuff was super light and made for a great tasty treat.
Sounds almost like my "fake chai" that I make on occasion. If you happen to have nutmeg, toss that in, too. Then you get almost-real fake-chai.