View Full Version : 2009 Trail Guides: Comments, Reviews, etc.
Jack Tarlin
02-11-2009, 17:08
In the past few days, several folks have written and asked me about this year's Trail Guides. They're wondering which one I think is the best; they're wondering whether or not they can get by with an older edition; they're wondering whether or not it makes difference which one they decide to use.
So let's hear it from all different folks: The 2009 A.T. guides have been out for a month or so. Which one do you like best, and why? Why did you pick it? Of the book you've chosen, what are your favorite features? What would you change? What would you add?
And that's the most important thing.....what does your book lack? What do you think would improve it? Have you noticed any glaring omissions or outright errors? Anything you'd add? Anything you could do without? Anything that you think would really improve it?
The authors/editors of all three major Trail guides are members and frequent visitors here at Whiteblaze.
Done constructively, I think this thread could help these folks a great deal, and could help make these books even more useful than they already are.
So here's your chance......
The 2009 A.T. Trail guides.
What do people have to say about them?
I just got my app pages and it looks great..I really like the elevation graph..seems very informative..lotsa town info..seems lighter then my 07 wingfoot..so far very nice but still test driving it..the jury is still out on the perforated pages though:-?
CrumbSnatcher
02-11-2009, 17:48
In the past few days, several folks have written and asked me about this year's Trail Guides. They're wondering which one I think is the best; they're wondering whether or not they can get by with an older edition; they're wondering whether or not it makes difference which one they decide to use.
So let's hear it from all different folks: The 2009 A.T. guides have been out for a month or so. Which one do you like best, and why? Why did you pick it? Of the book you've chosen, what are your favorite features? What would you change? What would you add?
And that's the most important thing.....what does your book lack? What do you think would improve it? Have you noticed any glaring omissions or outright errors? Anything you'd add? Anything you could do without? Anything that you think would really improve it?
The authors/editors of all three major Trail guides are members and frequent visitors here at Whiteblaze.
Done constructively, I think this thread could help these folks a great deal, and could help make these books even more useful than they already are.
So here's your chance......
The 2009 A.T. Trail guides.
What do people have to say about them? i like the format of the older wingfoot books, check out like a 98' verson. the appalachian pages i like the elevation maps. and all the town info. but the handbook seems to have alot more info between the lines, like from shelter to shelter theres more info.( between way points) and the milage between shelters is cool, but why milage for two shelters away. haven't seen the companion yet. i wish the best for bob,awol, an attroll!!!
I'll be ordering appalachian pages for my section hike this year for several reasons. First, I've been using a 2005 Wingfoot book and the prices of everything have gone way up. I need current pricings. Also, I like the profile on each page and the perforated pages. Sectioning, I only take the pages I'm hiking. And of course, I want to support Attroll and Awol.
Montana Mac
02-11-2009, 20:07
I have Appalachian Pages, The Thru-Hiker's Handbook and the ATC Book plus the guide books and maps.
Appalachian Pages:
I think better profiles
Town maps are included in the mileage data section
The unbound versions allows packing just the pages needed - I know I'm nuts but I just got this thing about ripping a book apart so I like the loose pages.
The Thru-Hiker's Handbook
More information in the mileage data section - i.e. more info on road crossings, creeks, etc
If you don't want to carry the extra pages the town info in in a separate section.
Guide books
I don't like the format of not having cumulative mileage from Springer.
To heavy
Maps
I am a map type of person - I like to know what is over the next ridge or what the mountain is off to the side.
Again it comes down to what the person that is going to carry them likes.
Mongoose2
02-11-2009, 20:12
I like the format and feel of the the App Pages (but I also carry a map)
Lone Wolf
02-11-2009, 21:32
all are good. none better than the other. i remember the days of no handbooks.
all are good. none better than the other. i remember the days of no handbooks.
No you don't. There were guidebooks before you were born.
Lone Wolf
02-12-2009, 05:37
i ain't talkin guidebooks, i'm talkin wingfoot-like handbooks
fiddlehead
02-12-2009, 06:09
Just finished a 5,000 km road trip.
The only guidebook i took was a 17 year old Lonely Planet guide.
I chose not to take a new one because i didn't want to know where everyone else was going. Just wanted some history, and geography info.
I think it's better to look around to see where you want to stay, where you want to eat, etc.
These guidebooks only tend to herd hikers together IMO.
If that's what you want, buy em.
If not, the new GPS's show you where things are. (PO, ATM's, Bars, Restaurants, Lodging, Health clinics, etc. )
Profile maps are the same. I'd rather be surprised and not know what's around every corner.
Mileage to springs, roads, towns with PO's, is important. The data book has all that.
No you don't. There were guidebooks before you were born.
Not the kind that told you where every turd is buried. Fiddlehead said it best.
Survivor Dave
02-12-2009, 08:29
Appalachian Pages.
All are good, but this is what I prefer. That's why I contribute to and sell the book.
If the authors/editors of the big 3 books are members, why are you doing their footwork? I'm sure Bob, David and Rick, and am assuming Laurie P. of the Companion have made inquiries to improve their books.
This is probably the 3rd or 4th thread started about this recently. Why do you have to add another Jack?
I think the questions and information you are asking for can be found there.
Not the kind that told you where every turd is buried. Fiddlehead said it best.
I seen a guide book from the long trail from the 30's that was pretty detailed. I bet Weary has some of them.
Clyde
Jack Tarlin
02-12-2009, 14:18
Geez, Dave, lighten up.
I'm not doing anyone's footwork here, and am not representing or shilling for anyone.
I'm merely inviting people to comment about all of the books, to offer constructive criticism, to point out omissions and errors that might have escpaed the authors/editors, and to provide suggestions to the authors and editors on how these books can be improved?
Why on earth do you object to this, Dave?
Oh, and LaurieP of the ATC has virtually nothing to do with the Companion, Dave. It is not "her" book, so try and get your facts right.
But honestly, why anyone would complain about this thread escapes me, unless of course, they were afraid that something close to their heart might end up with a dis-proportionate ammount of scrutiny and criticism.
Is that your worry, Dave?
Sure sounds that way. :-?
Survivor Dave
02-12-2009, 14:29
Geez, Dave, lighten up.
I'm not doing anyone's footwork here, and am not representing or shilling for anyone.
I'm merely inviting people to comment about all of the books, to offer constructive criticism, to point out omissions and errors that might have escpaed the authors/editors, and to provide suggestions to the authors and editors on how these books can be improved?
Why on earth do you object to this, Dave?
Oh, and LaurieP of the ATC has virtually nothing to do with the Companion, Dave. It is not "her" book, so try and get your facts right.
But honestly, why anyone would complain about this thread escapes me, unless of course, they were afraid that something close to their heart might end up with a dis-proportionate ammount of scrutiny and criticism.
Is that your worry, Dave?
Sure sounds that way. :-?
No Jack, I only benefit from what I put into whatever my endeavors are. Enjoyment of contributing to the book first. If you think I'm breaking the bank, that's not even worth the effort to laugh at.
I know that Laurie is not the direct person, I just know of her from here. I have the utmost respect for her as I have spoken with her a few times. It said "assuming" in my post Jack. I support the ATC and any other folks on my website free of charge. It's about hiking and the hiking community for me Jack, not talking about it.
It seems that you think that I am on the defensive side for the guidebook of my choosing. You are mistaken Jack.
Well in other news I had an '07 Wingfoot and rather liked it, I like the info about the sidetrails and the format was easy on my eyes.
Have an '09 Appalachian Pages and I like it well enough, but I loathe the elevation profile. I hate it. I hope I can ignore it. Other than that both books are about the same as far as info and format goes.
I suppose the lightest way would be the ATC published guidebook or getting the AP in looseleaf format. I am disorganized so I like having a bound book.
Awol2003
02-12-2009, 15:19
i like the format of the older wingfoot books, check out like a 98' verson. the appalachian pages i like the elevation maps. and all the town info. but the handbook seems to have alot more info between the lines, like from shelter to shelter theres more info.( between way points) and the milage between shelters is cool, but why milage for two shelters away. haven't seen the companion yet. i wish the best for bob,awol, an attroll!!!
Crumbsnatcher;
Thanks for checking out App Pages. Just wanted to point out that your comments refer to last year's book. We added hundreds of landmarks in 2009, so you would find the books (App Pages and THH) fairly comparable in that respect.
Why mileage to the next two shelters? Because the average distance between shelters is 8.3 miles, and as you know most hikers will opt for a longer day. At the urging of a faster hiker, we even extended that feature to show the distance to the next 3 shelters in the 2009 book. In 76 cases, the third shelter away is 20 miles or less, so thru-hikers will have ample opportunity to make use of the information. Yes, hikers can do the math themselves, but when designing a handbook, it is always best to maximize the ease of use.
CrumbSnatcher
02-12-2009, 15:35
Crumbsnatcher;
Thanks for checking out App Pages. Just wanted to point out that your comments refer to last year's book. We added hundreds of landmarks in 2009, so you would find the books (App Pages and THH) fairly comparable in that respect.
Why mileage to the next two shelters? Because the average distance between shelters is 8.3 miles, and as you know most hikers will opt for a longer day. At the urging of a faster hiker, we even extended that feature to show the distance to the next 3 shelters in the 2009 book. In 76 cases, the third shelter away is 20 miles or less, so thru-hikers will have ample opportunity to make use of the information. Yes, hikers can do the math themselves, but when designing a handbook, it is always best to maximize the ease of use. when i was refering to more info between shelters i had a 2008 handbook in front of me along with a 2009 appalachian pages guide. i was not being to critical of your book. i think its a good guidebook and i wish you well in your endeav'ors.
Jack Tarlin
02-12-2009, 16:58
Nobody accused you of "breaking the bank" or getting rich from your endeavors, Dave. Stop being so defensive about everything.
I was merely asking what you found so objectionable about this thread.
And you never answered, by the way, but I guess we can let that go.
In any case, I'm interested in hearing from all sorts of different folks, and I hope the comments here prove useful to folks using the 2009 books, and for those using these books in future years.
Troll and AWOL really jumpstarted alot of trail guide innovation with the introduction of Appalachian Pages in 2008. The enhanced maps look great.
Bob "501" has put in a great deal of work to freshen up Wingfoot's handbook which had become a bit stale.
I just got my Appalachian Pages today and started browsing through it, and it looks great! I love how it shows the elevation changes on the sides of the page. Not to mention having one that is geared for Southbounders is a great idea, and is what inspired me to buy it in the first place.
For 7-8 day section hikes, I only use the ATC maps and a cache bucket for resupply. The guidebooks are really for people who need to go into town on longer hikes. I have seen all the guidebooks and they are pretty much the same.
TJ aka Teej
02-13-2009, 15:00
I miss the Philosopher's Guide.
After comparing (the Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine sections of) all four guidebooks last year:
1. Databook
2. Companion
3. Wingfoot
4. Whiteblaze
The collective of local knowledge, trail experience, and hiker input that produces the ATC's ALDHA Companion can only be mimicked, not surpassed.
blazechaser
02-14-2009, 12:39
Being a new thru hiker, I have purchased all 3 books & I think they are all great. Have decided on the Handbook because it has more data entries, have some previous experience with it section hiking, & also because I bought 2 of them so my wife & I can be on the same wavelength at any given time. I have broken it up into 4 sections to reduce the weight.
By the way Jack, I saw in a previous post (which I can't find again because I'm also new to Whiteblaze & still trying to figure out how to navigate around) that you are working on updating your resupply guide. Was wondering what the status of this is because I think it's a great piece of work & is the single most important tool I have been using in my planning.
Thanks much! :)
Blazechaser
Jack Tarlin
02-14-2009, 12:58
Will try and get to this done in the next week or so; wanted to wait until I had a look at all three of this year's Guidebooks first.
Good news is that a very great deal of the Re-Supply article is still valid, tho of course there have been some significant changes, such as Miss Janet running a hostel in Franklin this year and not Erwin, etc. But most of the article is still valid, including approximate times between stretches of the Trail, the ammount of food one will likely need for each stretch, etc.
One thing, tho, since you have them handy, check you guidebooks well, especially the mid-Atlantic ares, as there are a few places that I neglected to mention in the article(Waynesboro/Blue Ridhge Summit, PA is a good example). Also, I've done little hiking in NJ/NW in the past few years, so there may well be some new places there, like little markets or convenience stores that I didn't know about or didn't mention.
Jack Tarlin
02-20-2009, 18:06
Finally got my copy of the 2009 Companion, which, like the other two guidebooks, is also much improved. It is particularly good on its descriptions of Trail features (shelters, campsites, water sources, etc.) but it's kind of bulky. Will comment more later.
Jack Tarlin
02-20-2009, 18:37
Will do this one book at a time:
In re. to the 2009 Thru-Hikers Companion:
PROS:
Most significant improvement is in the maps; there are more of them, too.
There are a few errors, mostly minor (restaurants on the wrong corner, etc.)
Best thing about the Companion is in the text, where descriptions of Trail
features are found, such as shelters, campsites, alternate water sources,
etc. Also, explanatory commentary on places with special rules/regulations
(like the Smokies; Shenandoah Park; the White Mountains, and especially
Baxter State Park) is complete and very useful. Information on towns, i.e.
businesses and facilities is complete and excellent; in most cases, items
mentioned in text are all on the maps and vice versa, so there's no looking
at a place on a map and wondering what sort of place or business it
actually is.
CONS: The book is too bulky and heavy. It needs to be tightened up badly;
there's a lot of "white space" in the book. And why is it 100 pages (:eek:)
longer than the other guides? And several important places don't have
maps.....don't get me wrong, it's nice to see places like Cheshire and Salis-
bury have maps, even tho both places are so small they're fairly easy to
navigate, but why are there no maps for Rutland or North Woodstock/
Lincoln, which are much larger and where a map would really be useful?
In any case, there's room for improvement here.
Jack Tarlin
02-20-2009, 18:45
2009 Thru-Hikers Handbook:
PROS:
Book now has Trail elevation profiles, an idea lifted from Appalachian Pages. Howver, the ones in the Handbook are easier on the eye and make it much easier to see and recognize key features/destinations, such as specific
moutains, shelter locations, etc. Maps have been significantly improved, including some very useful new ones (Waynesboro/Blue Ridge Summit, PA; Lehigh Gap, etc). Information/features on maps is basic, but they are easy on the eye. Town information (businesses/facilities/prices/contact information, etc.) is very well done, consistent, and complete. Supplemental
text info on places like the National Parks; the White Mountains; Baxter, also very good.
CONS:
Mileage info/charts is totally separated from maps and text; this is in-
convenient for some folks. Little or no text info in re. to Trail features (descriptions of shelters, campsites, water sources, etc).
walkin' wally
02-20-2009, 18:54
Jack,
I really like your resupply information. I print out the pages and read them that way. It has a lot of info that I find useful in a manner that is not available in the guidebooks or handbooks and I will add it to my 100 pound pack when I leave for GA. next March. :D
I read your caveat about it being just one person's opinion but it still helps me a lot.
Thanks
I really don't know which book I will take with me I think they are all well done.
leprechaun
02-20-2009, 20:37
I am taking App Pages on my thru this year, and as a faster hiker, I really really like the triple shelter mileages. The elevation profile is also a great feature, as are the town maps. I looked carefully at every book, and decided that the Pages were the book for me. I'm not bashing the other books, but my money is going to the Pages.
On a side note, Jack Tralin's resupply article is an invaluable tool. thank you!
Jack Tarlin
02-22-2009, 20:22
2009 Appalachian Pages:
PROS: Greatly improved maps, especially some of the larger and more spread
out towns, like Erwin. Book also contains maps not found elsewhere
(Luray is one example). Book contains elevation profiles that have
proven very popular.
CONS: Some of the maps are just TOO busy and aren't that easy on the eye.
Elevation profiles in other books are easier to use and contain more
information. Major complaint with this book is the incompleteness of
information (and inconsistency) when supplying town information (i.e
descriptions of businesses, restarants, etc., prices of motels, etc.
In many cases this information is entirely lacking, or is inconsistent:
a town will have several motels listed but only one listing will include
the actual price, so hikers are left wondering whether or not they're
getting the best deal. Hikers shouldn't have to make a bunch of
phone calls in order to get this info; it should be included in their
guidebooks as it makes it much easier for them to decide ahead of
time which businesses they want to patronize.
The book is also weak with supplemental text information on areas
that have myriad unique rules and regulations regarding visits,
permits, lodging options, campsites, etc. This includes such areas as
the Smokies, Shenandoah Park, and most important of all, Baxter
Park and Katahdin, where the information provided is limited in the
extreme. In short, the biggest problem with App. Pages is that in its
attempt to present "streamlined" fat-free information, it leaves out a
great deal of material that would be extremely useful to hikers, and
in that there are other books out there that are the same size and
weight of A.P., I frankly don't see that the benefits of this
streamlining outweigh the negative aspects of leaving out some very
useful stuff.
2009 Appalachian Pages:
Book also contains maps not found elsewhere
(Luray is one example).
Companion has it. ;)
Awol2003
02-24-2009, 20:21
In the text of App Pages, there are 292 lodging options listed, which includes hotels, hostels, B&Bs, and pay-for-stay campsites. Of those,
272 have a price, price range or "by donation" listed,
21 do not have a price
The rare cases (less than one in ten) of lodging without a price include places that ask us not to list a price, or that had not decided on their 2009 prices by the time we went to print. There some with notes, such as "pricey," "ask for hiker rate," or "10% discount for hikers."
Lion King
02-25-2009, 13:25
2009 Appalachian Pages:
CONS: Some of the maps are just TOO busy and aren't that easy on the eye.
Elevation profiles in other books are easier to use and contain more
information. Major complaint with this book is the incompleteness of
information (and inconsistency) when supplying town information (i.e
descriptions of businesses, restarants, etc., prices of motels, etc.
In many cases this information is entirely lacking, or is inconsistent:
a town will have several motels listed but only one listing will include
the actual price, so hikers are left wondering whether or not they're
getting the best deal. Hikers shouldn't have to make a bunch of
phone calls in order to get this info; it should be included in their
guidebooks as it makes it much easier for them to decide ahead of
time which businesses they want to patronize.
Good stuff on the pros, but...
in defense of the book, since I am out here checking some things on it and using it a few comments; Hotels change prices as fast as hikers eat snickers, and some if not most, will ask for their prices to be left out (Seasonal changes and grumpy demanding hikers whom expect to be treated with the price in the book, even if it is last years price, thus the exclusion of them at times) excpet those that hikers use and almost always get a discount, those are listed.
Hikers shouldnt know everything about a town, some of it should be a surprise and you know as well as anyone that the trail grapevine provides you more then enough info 20 miles from the town you are stopping in most times. It always does, usually.
State and National Park info is available when you get near them, including kiosks with maps and info, rangers with answers, forms, permits and maps and other things that you have to get or fill out when you arrive anyway.
The elevation thing is what it is, and his book does claim that the Maps are not to scale, that certian things in towns are not as close as they appear but are there so you have a basic knowledge of where to go etc...
he also left out certina businesses that may never be used by the majority of hikers for the streamliing aspect.
Again, good points Jack, but overall it is a fine book with the perfect info that most have to carry two books to have, and you know as well as anyone half of the trip is the nice little surprises or towns that have things you didnt know about till you got there. I think.
In the text of App Pages, there are 292 lodging options listed, which includes hotels, hostels, B&Bs, and pay-for-stay campsites. Of those,
272 have a price, price range or "by donation" listed,
21 do not have a price
IMO, prices should only be used as a guideline, and a comparison to other options with the expectation that they may be higher when the hiker arrives.
Lion King
02-25-2009, 13:54
Note to self:
re-Donate to Whiteblaze again so I can edit my fast typing which results in poor spelling....
Lybarger
02-25-2009, 13:55
For towns some distance from the trail, I would like to see more phone #'s of taxi or shuttle services. If my daughter was hiking the trail and wished to get into town, I would hope she would have those kind of options.
Jack Tarlin
02-25-2009, 20:30
I see what you're saying, King, but there are other books out there that are the same size, length, and weight, but they manage to supply their users with a whole lot more information.
For example, knowing the various rules and regulations for places like the Smokies, Shenandoah, the White Mountains, and Baxter State Park is really important, and King is quite wrong when he says all this info is conveniently posted at kiosks. Because it isn't. Where's the "info kiosk" when you enter the White Mountains, King? I mean, you've been there often enough so this shouldn't be too tough to answer. So where's the kiosk telling thru-hikers everything they need to know about getting thru this area, camping regulations, info on AMC facilities, etc. Funny thing. I've managed to miss this kiosk fifteen times.
Must've been daydreaming or something. :rolleyes:
The other books provide VERY extensive info on all of these places; App. Pages info is minimal, especially as regards Baxter State Park.
Also disagree with his King's contention that "streamlining" the town info is OK cuz they're omitting facilities and places that most hikers don't use. Sorry, that's simply dead wrong. In Hanover, for example, ALL of the places listed and briefly described in the text of the Handbook and Companion are regularly patronized by hikers, and it's very convenient knowing who charges what, or what certain restaurants specialize in, etc. If there's a place that's particularly friendly to hikers, well I would really wanna know about it. If there's a place that has advertised food specials but they run out by 6:30, well I wanna know about it, and so on.
King talks about surprises, and how much fun they are. Well, tell you what, King.
Let's say you arrived in a town after a long day's hike, and discovered that the AYCE place you hoped to eat at for cheap was all out of food cuz you went there too late; that the hotel you elected to patronize cost 25 bucks more than the ones your friends stayed at, or that you ended up hiking two extra miles in the dark because your chosen guidebook gave you the wrong information on where you could camp.
Are these the sorts of surprises you look forward to getting at the end of the day, King?
Um, no, I didn't think so.
A book that leaves out so much can hardly be termed "perfect", King.
I think "incomplete" might be a better term.
Jack Tarlin
02-25-2009, 20:52
Incidentally, for those of you who've contacted me privately to ask why I'm being so rough on Appalachian Pages, the answer is that I wasn't aware that I had been doing that.
I've attempted to be completely fair and open-minded about all of the guidebooks, pointing out repeatedly what I feel to be their strengths and weaknesses.
I've publicly stated that I DON'T generally carry or use the book that I personally help edit; if I were so heavily biased towards one work or another, then one would think that this would be the book I'd be raving about, no?
And lastly, to the guy who suggested to me that I had it in for one book and was trying to hurt its sales, well here's an interesting question. These books came out over a month ago. Most of the 2009 hikers have already decided which books to purchase and use; they made this decision quite awhile ago. Lots of folks have started their hikes already. If I was really interested in going after a particular book and determined to steer folks away from it, I kinda think I'd have done this immediately after the books came out, which I deliberately did not do.
Instead I waited till all 3 books came out, so I could read, examine, and fairly compare all 3, which I think is what I managed to do.
Of the folks who've posted here and elsewhere, usually to rave about one book or the other, I have to wonder: How many of you actually obtained and read all three books before offering your opinion or praise?
Not many, I bet.
In short, I think think discussions like this are worthwhile. When a good idea appears in a guidebook (say, for example, elevation profiles), then other people notice the idea. They run with it, and perhaps improve on it. And this is all for the best. Pointing out both the positive and negative aspects of these works only encourages all of the authors and editors to work on making each succeeding edition of the book better than the one that came out the year before. Everyone wins because each year's books are better.
And how anyone can object to this escapes me.
SGT Rock
02-25-2009, 20:54
I still think you are pole vaulting over mouse turds on this one Jack.
(Military term for making a bigger problem out of something than it really is...)
Have I been to a town and ate at a place that wasn't in the Companion? Yes. Will it happen in the future? Yes, even you agree that places change overnight. Will you walk into a town and find a place that isn't in the Companion? Probably. If you saw it there will you try it? Your call, but I figure you might even though it isn't listed. The AP doesn't even try to list everything. Just places it figures hikers are likely to go to. I do the same on my BMT guide for towns like Cherokee, Bryson City, and Blue Ridge. If I plan to go into Hanover and eat three meals, I don't need to know 30 restaurants.
Not listing a restaurant doesn't mean it ain't going to get seen or used. Geez. Seems like a lot of drama to say hikers are going to miss out on places to eat because they are not in the guide. How did hikers do it in the old days?
As to rules..
I've seen the rules posted in the Companion for the Smokies - it also doesn't have them all.
But I wouldn't even try because the Smokies has a whole book of rules that cover the area and most of the rules are so obscure you really don't need to know them. The rules you do need to know are on the Kiosk and on the registration form that you get when you enter the park. There is enough info in the AP to plan for what you are going to need to know though. I didn't see any show stoppers for rules in other places I have hiked. True I ain't done Baxter or the Whites yet. But my guess is these places have more hikers in them than just AT thru hikers with their Companion rule book hiking there - so they probably have alternate means there to make sure you know the rules. I bet dollars to donuts that the people managing these places don't want to play got-ya-games with the rules either. Just my observation, but places like this find them easier to enforce if they let you know what they expect when you enter. I don't see why you need to carry a complete list of rules about the Whites the whole length of the trail when you only need them for the week you are there - and they will probably tell you what you need to know when you are hiking there. I wonder how hikers made it through the Whites, GSMNP, Baxter, and other places when there wasn't a trail guide as complete as the Companion is now?
As to size - looks like AP is about 67% of the weight of the Companion. I know you carry 55 pounds of gear and think people cutting grams is stupid, but some of us look for these sorts of savings. But we are happy carrying less. We are the guys that cut our pads into body shapes. True we may turn a little in the night and our feet get off that pad, but somehow we still survive smaller pads just fine. How big was the Philosophers Guide back in the day? Did people complain it needed to be larger for their safety?
Anyhow, like I said, you are making a lot out of a few things missing. I think it is your perspective. You are a detail oriented person - it helps you do well at Jeopardy. Some of us don't need to know every detail and enjoy solving problems and learning as we go. That is our perspective on it. Frankly I don't care if it doesn't list everything before I get to town. I don't want an encyclopedia reference set of the trail while hiking. I want a "guide" that is in a format I find easy to read and lets me know enough about a place before I get there. Like I said, there are locals and telephone books in town if we need to know more. We don't plan to use our guides as references for trail Jeopardy. Even you said you don't use the Companion because you like another format better even though it isn't as complete in it's information. I imagine Trail Jeopardy was harder for us new guys when we didn't have guides to tell us everything about the trail before we hiked the whole thing 7 times.
To us folk complementing the AP guide for getting rid of a bunch of stuff to make it easier to use and a better format - we don't care to know every place in town before we get there. We are going to use the guide as a "guide" before we get there and on trying to get around initially. You have hiked the trail numerous times and know every possible variation on chow, lodging, shuttle, rule, etc. and apparently find it is a need for US to carry all that - but you yourself even said you don't carry the Companion. I see what you say your reasoning is, but really - you think anyone cares what guide you use? Carry what you want to carry. Who cares if people say you support it because you write for it? You should carry the guide that fits how you like to hike - not because someone thinks you have an ulterior motive to use it. That is sort of ass-backwards if you think about it. But as I recall in other threads you like the format of the Thru-Hikers Guide better so why even bring the other point up?
Hell, I don't know why you even need a guide over just the Databook to let you know the few mileage changes from last year. ;)
I've been saying this for years that the Companion is in a bad format and lists way too much extra stuff - and some people that used the Companion for years have agreed with m. And then someone finally goes and makes a new guide that gives me (and them) what they want. Sort of like ultralight gear.
Seems back 10 years ago people on the Internet said we were a hazard to ourselves by not carrying complete tents, using pop cans for stoves in the winter, and hiking in sneakers instead of real boots. But the trend seems to have caught on and people are doing well - in fact whole new lines of gear are out there that make use of that dangerous ultralight stuff and even "real hikers" are benefiting from it.
Now the folks that want that sort of idea applied their trail guide are getting it, and it looks like it may do the same thing that ultralight gear did for us 10 years ago: drive the train on guides (Thru-Hikers Handbook is already adapting) and make hiking more fun for everyone (not less). Seems most folks are accustomed to not always knowing the VERY BEST possible deal at all times - and even you have admitted that with all the Companion's effort it is impossible to do. What method of success did hikers use back in the 80s to know the best deals?
Back in your early days hikers didn't need the Encyclopedia Appalachia and they did fine - and I figure the AP hikers will be OK as well. In fact if the AP starts trying to list every place and goes larger and larger just to squelch the comments from folks like you who probably are never going to hike with it anyway (sort of like you will never use ultralight stuff so why make ultralight gear you would like?) - I'll probably be pointing it out again and some 4th party will have to come back in and fill the void again. Lets not try to make the AP into the Companion PLEASE!
Finally: I certainly think "incompetent" is a harsh accusation - sounds a lot like the "dangerous" that ultralights were once called. I guess older guidebook writers were also incompetent. At what point did they finally become competent?
Still love ya' and look forward to seeing you this spring.:sun
Jack Tarlin
02-25-2009, 20:57
Eight o'clock, Library's closing. Will look forward to seeing more comments and will get back to you tomorrow, Rock.
Lone Wolf
02-25-2009, 22:14
nothing more to discuss. the companion is inferior to the other guides available
Of the folks who've posted here and elsewhere, usually to rave about one book or the other, I have to wonder: How many of you actually obtained and read all three books before offering your opinion or praise?
Not many, I bet.
so instead of asking for opinions why didn't you just give your reviews, or put this in straight forward and ask for only responses from those who have read all three...
envirodiver
02-26-2009, 01:12
I still think you are pole vaulting over mouse turds on this one Jack.
(Military term for making a bigger problem out of something than it really is...)
"Picking Fly**** out of pepper" is another good analogy for this.
Lion King
02-26-2009, 10:50
"including kiosks with maps and info, rangers with answers, forms, permits and maps and other things that you have to get or fill out when you arrive anyway."
key phrase with key word in bold.
Jack Tarlin
02-26-2009, 15:52
King:
*There aren't always kiosks.
*Most hikers go thru these places without ever seeing a ranger.
In places where there are all sorts of special rules and regulations, especially as regards where it's OK or legal to camp, where to get a permit, whether you need to check in or get a permit, etc., well this is REALLY useful information for hikers to have well in advance of when they get to these places.
And the simple truth is some of the guidebooks are very good about providing this information, in detail. And some aren't.
Johnny Thunder
02-26-2009, 17:16
I think that town information is over emphasized on this board. The trail grapevine is as Lion King says...once you leave Georgia (and lose the jitters) you typically get the skinny on things a few town in advance.
What I think is most important is to keep and emphasize legal information re: rules and restrictions in the many areas the trail passes through. I can recall a number of times when relevant legal information was distorted through the trail "grapevine".
I mean, the worst thing that happens when someone ends up misinformed about a hostel is they show up at Standing Bear and have to hand-wash their laundry. But if you go into the Smokies without the right identification and/or paperwork you might end up with a fine.
And I'm all for the guides being kept relevant. I'd rather have no information than incorrect information (as this was my major contention with the Pages last year).
Conversely, I believe that hikers should be warned IN THE STRONGEST LANGUAGE POSSIBLE against the popular law breaking activities that occur on the trail. For example: Hike Naked Day and Mooning the Cog Railway. The trail Grapevine makes these into non-issues and non-violations while the ramifications and penalties for getting caught can last a lifetime. It sounds childish to have to warn against these things but I really think it's necessary.
buff_jeff
02-26-2009, 18:21
Man, I have no idea. It seems like there is so much information about the AT out there already that it's just overload. I've gone out with just maps and an idea in my head of what towns to hit, but sometimes I'll just look at the map, see a town, and head in.
I don't own all of these guides but you can complete the trail with any one of them. Hell, you can complete it without a guide.
Johnny Thunder
02-26-2009, 20:21
Jeff,
That's more along the lines of what I was thinking. When were you last in the woods wondering what the postal address was for an upcoming hostel?
All of that stuff could be handled on a web page or something. If a family member wanted to mail you a package they could find the information online.
I'd like to see a new guidebook with a less traditional focus. A number of us joked about creating a "Blue Blazers" guide that could be a stand-alone source similar to the pages or the companion. We envisioned something that was very up front about all the options. That made it clear from the beginning that this was a "choose your own adventure."
Awol2003
02-28-2009, 12:45
Incidentally, for those of you who've contacted me privately to ask why I'm being so rough on Appalachian Pages, the answer is that I wasn't aware that I had been doing that.
...
And how anyone can object to this escapes me.
Jack;
Anytime someone posts something positive about the book, you are on their heels, insinuating that they are either biased, witless, or uninformed. There must be a fair number of WB'ers who are now too intimidated to post on the subject. You are relentless and there is no one willing to post as much as you do. It creates an environment that discourages discussion.
You rarely (if ever?) undercut positive postings made about the other guidebooks.
In your review of App Pages you say "a town will have one hotel with a price and several without." This is clearly intended to mislead hikers into believing that most of the prices are not provided. As noted previously, 93% of the time lodging prices are provided, and there are good reasons for the omissions.
Your "review" ignores features of App Pages that are unmatched by other books;
the southbound edition,
unbound edition,
perforated pages,
triple shelter distances, and
GPS coords for parking areas.
Last year you did your best to underplay profile maps, even suggesting that it might be detrimental to have them in a guidebook. When another guidebook adds them this year, they are "a nice touch." Then you stretch credibility by saying that smaller, less detailed profiles are "better done."
See this posting:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=775215#post775215
BEFORE the 2009 books came out, in response to someone considering this year's books, you replied (paraphrasing) "THH has absolutely the best town maps." Most 2009 App Pages town maps are twice the size of THH and have more services plotted; maps are proportionally scaled and there are more of them. Now you refrain from making comparative judgment. You say only that they App Pages maps are improved, a compliment which you also give to the other books, which effectively says nothing.
(BTW: For those of you without the books but are interested in seeing for yourself, 2009 samples are provided on the websites of both THH and App Pages - the samples include at least one map of the same city as done in each book.)
Selectively ignoring strengths and overstating shortcomings is far from fair and forthright. It hardly seems possible that such carefully slanted postings could be made unawares.
That's more along the lines of what I was thinking. When were you last in the woods wondering what the postal address was for an upcoming hostel?
It's apparent no one book is going to fit everyone's criteria as to what makes the best book.
For instance, I don't use support people and do everything from the trail so it's important for me to have addresses.
Some people like myself like lots of info and are curious about the history along the trail. Others just want the data.
SGT Rock
02-28-2009, 15:50
It's apparent no one book is going to fit everyone's criteria as to what makes the best book.
I totally agree. Just like there is no best boots, pack, or tent. Your guide has to fit your style.
For instance, I don't use support people and do everything from the trail so it's important for me to have addresses.
Some people like myself like lots of info and are curious about the history along the trail. Others just want the data.
As far as I know the best guides for history along the trail and more trail information would be the maintaining club's section guidebooks.
As far as I know the most streamlined guidebook would be the Databook.
In between these extremes you have (rated from lest to most in detail):
1. AP
2. Thru-Hiker Handbook
3. The Companion
My personal opinion is you don't have enough info with the Databook and have too much trail info and not enough town info with the Section Guides. I wouldn't thru-hike with either. But the three in the middle are going to do you OK if you figure out which format works the best for you.
All 3 books will get you from Maine to Georgia or vice versa and none of the 3 will be the reason you didn't make it.
It's great to have variety. Kudos to the writers/contributors of all 3.
Jack Tarlin
02-28-2009, 20:44
I am at work and have neither the time nor in truth, the inclination to deal with AWOL's post #50 above.
Except to say that it's peevish, childish, untrue, and unwarranted.
My initial comments about AWOL's book, when it first appeared, were highly positive. I commented on how improved the fact-checking and accuracy were, and I lavishly praised the maps.
My comparison and subsequent review of all three books was scrupulously fair, and in point of fact, when I was directly asked which 2009 book I favored and was likely to carry, I did NOT cite the book I helped edit or am most commonly associated with. If I was so horribly biased towards a particular work, one would think it'd be the one I helped produce, no?
But this was not the case.
Let the record also show that I waited WEEKS to review all three books, as unlike most folks, I actually wanted to obtain and read all three works before comparing them. If I had it if for a particular book (like AWOL sems to think), then don't you suppose I'd have issued a scathing review weeks and weeks ago? I mean, the book has been out since mid-January. If I was trying to hurt the book, or damage potential sales, or steer folks towards another work, then one would think I'd have done this nefarious negative reviewing in January, no? I mean, tomorrow's the first of March. Hundreds and hundreds of folks have made their buying decision re. which book they like, and are already on the Trail. If my "reviews" were attempting to hurt a particular work, or favor another, then you'd think I'd have posted my comments weeks ago, no?
Which I deliberately didn't.
That's it for now, I don't have time for this. AWOL's comments were ridiculous.
But in truth, when I have the time, if he REALLY wants a line-by-line, page-by-page examination of his book and what I think of it, then I suppose I can find the time to provide it.
That what you're looking for, AWOL?
No, didn't think so.
SGT Rock
02-28-2009, 21:02
Looks like an argument we don't need on the site. So, with that said...