Ideas for Dealing with Odd/Suspicious People & Scenarios

[weary]

I've never doubted for a moment that there are occasional dangerous people and dangerous critters in the woods and mountains. I've seen a few "strange" people, a category I'm sure some may think includes me.

My folks claimed my first walk in the woods occurred in 1933. But in all these years, I've never felt seriously threatened while wandering American trails. And even on the rare occasions when I thought someone might be dangerous, I haven't thought a gun would do any good.

Short of shooting suspicious people at random, a gun strikes me as worthless. Far better is simply walking away.

I kind of doubt if many potential killers announce their intentions in advance. And if they don't announce their evil intentions, all they need do is wait until I turn away from them to cook a meal, read a book, or go to sleep and they can kill me in a fraction of a second, whether I carry or not.

Carry on the trail, if you wish. It's increasingly legal to do so. But don't think doing so offers you any special protection. It doesn't. If anything it increases your danger. Guns are dangerous things. I doubt if anyone is keeping count, but I suspect that carrying guns kill far more friends and family members -- and carriers themselves -- than carrying guns avert threats by those who may pose a genuine danger to anyone.

Weary

[Old River Rat]

I respect your opinion. One thing that I am finding on this forum are good people like yourself, who I am sure are examples of who I will meet on the trails. God willing, I will make it to the time I can hike them. I will be blessed if I do. I should have my equipment by March 2011. But I will be retired February of 2013!!!!!

Hiking and backpacking is what I chose to provide me with a means of peace and tranquility, the kind of times I enjoyed while 4X4 camping years ago. Also an activity that I can enjoy with my grandsons and my granddaughter, if she chooses to go with me. The boys are 8 and 4 years of age. My precious little girl is only 2. I have three children. My only son is 33. My two daughters are 25 and 16. The only one who has not agreed to go with me so far is my son! And, of course, the little girl.

I guess my recent posts are due to a crust that I have developed over the past several years, as I rarely deal with the cream of society. Every day that I work I have to worry about the time I may be caught off guard. And let me stress this, I am not claiming to be special. All of us each day face danger. I am sure no one is counting this statistic either, but I am sure there is someone who has died as a result of climbing out of bed. Eh . . . maybe out of a top bunk. I am looking forward to the time I can put this behind me and enjoy the company of every one of you I have met on this forum.

God bless.

[TallShark]

A good reply, "My friend Smith and Wesson." I was wondering if I were the only one that would think of carrying a weapon. You would think something like the AT would be safe. But it seems that I keep reading accounts of crime and it is even mentioned on official state web sites. I believe in erring on the side of caution. I have been a police officer for a while now and it is true, many officers are killed with the weapons they carry. The reason is this . . . it is on our hips, in view. A concealed weapon is not likely to be taken away. It will be safe until drawn. The best scenario would be to keep it away until it is absolutely necessary to use it, and when it is drawn . . . know you have the ability to pull the trigger. Until that happens there are ways to prevent confrontation. Walk away when possible. If you see someone suspicious, keep moving. Do not look like a victim. Don't walk with a chip on your shoulder, but have a confident look. You know that look a submissive animal has? Always maintain a gap between you and a suspicious person. If they keep moving into your space, you may have a problem. This is the time to be ready to act or react. To act is better. If you are sure there is a threat, a decisive blow is in order. A hard blow to the throat or side of the neck is effective. Come up with a tactic you are confident in and play the scenario in you mind. You will act quicker if you have done it mentally over and over. If you have a partner, practice together. If it becomes physical and you are sure you cannot overpower your attacker, then you have cause to draw your weapon. Have your weapon in a place it can be drawn quickly and practice, practice, practice. Against the law to carry a concealed weapon? The old adage applies . . . I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. My personal philosophy is . . . I do not want to draw a weapon until it is a last resort. Pulling it to avoid a fight may stop the fight, but it can also land you assault charges. In conclusion, go through a course that will allow you to carry a concealed weapon in your state. You will receive training and a good knowledge of when the law allows you to use lethal force. The permit may not be valid for the AT, and I am not a lawyer, but I cannot see where having a permit will do any harm. Times are getting bad. Many people will become victims of violent crime before their life is over. I prefer to do all I can to prevent becoming a victim. I truly believe in patriotic, law abiding citizens being armed. God bless the USA.

Best advice on this thread... Amen, Amen, Amen.

[Old River Rat]

This is from a National Parks Service website . . .


TRAIL ALERTS (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.4113433/k.3FE7/Update_Virginia_Trail_Closure.htm)
PERSONAL SAFETY AND AWARENESS TIPS FOR A.T. HIKERS
The freedom to enjoy the Appalachian Trail comes with the responsibility to be informed, prepared, and alert to our surroundings.
Although the Appalachian Trail is safer than most places, it is not immune to criminal behavior—including crimes of violence. Acts of kindness and “trail magic (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/trailmagic)” are so common on the A.T. that it’s easy to forget you could encounter someone who does not have your best interest at heart or who may even seek to harm you. This is more likely to occur near roads or occasionally at shelters, but it can happen anywhere.
In heavily used areas, A.T. “ridgerunners” and “caretakers” act as roving “eyes and ears” for Trail managers and for public education. Some carry two-way radios that may enable them to radio for help where cell phones do not work. However, many areas of the A.T. are remote, and help may be far away. ATC has no law-enforcement authority but can readily contact those who do in a particular area and help them help you.
Safety awareness is one of your best lines of defense, and your brain provides one of your best weapons. Here are some suggestions:
Be mentally prepared for the risks you may encounter. If you encounter trouble, chances are a law-enforcement officer or ranger will not be nearby and a cell phone may not work. Think through scenarios ahead of time, and decide how you might respond. Learn to trust your instincts, and be prepared to act on them.

Reading this early on in my research of hiking infuriated me, leading me to write my first post on here. I do not believe anyone should ignore the possibility of a treat, no matter how slight. I will now agree, after debate with some very fine hikers on this forum, it is more likely you will get hit by lightning before becoming a victim of crime on the trail. But, I do not see any harm having a contingency for any negative incident that may occur. I am somewhat sure the "instincts" mentioned in the writing are what are known as the fight or flight instinct we all have. Or it could be meant we should use "brains over brawn." I agree, the best thing to do is get away the best you can, giving up possessions if necessary. But if your back is against the wall, and you life or well being is in jeopardy, it is wise to have a self defense contengency.

Trying to think in the mind of a criminal . . . I am not sure I would want to tangle empty handed with a strong, fit hiker carrying a stick.

Anyway . . . I am having a ball learning about this great sport/hobby. I love this forum. It is priceless getting insight and knowledge from hikers who have "been there, done that." I have just began reading a book by Ed Speer, "Hammock Camping."

Take care out there . . .

[rickb]

I will now agree, after debate with some very fine hikers on this forum, it is more likely you will get hit by lightning before becoming a victim of crime on the trail.


Not sure how many thru hikers have been hit by lightning on the trail, but none has ever died as a result.

Five thru hikers have been murdered by total strangers on the AT.

[rickb]

Guns are dangerous things. I doubt if anyone is keeping count, but I suspect that carrying guns kill far more friends and family members -- and carriers themselves -- than carrying guns avert threats by those who may pose a genuine danger to anyone.

I have to agree with this.

The NPS Morning Report regularly reports Rangers dealing with suicides in our parks. Many no doubt were committed with handguns purchased years before during happier times.

The guns may not have been the cause of any of those tragedies, but they certainly made the job easier, which isn't a good thing.

[Sierra Echo]

I have to agree with this.

The NPS Morning Report regularly reports Rangers dealing with suicides in our parks. Many no doubt were committed with handguns purchased years before during happier times.

The guns may not have been the cause of any of those tragedies, but they certainly made the job easier, which isn't a good thing.

What a stupid thing to say!
If someone is determined to die, they can just as easily slit their throat
or hang themselves. That bit cracks me up about them committing suicide with handguns purchased during happier years! LMAO thats kind of like saying a person jumped off the roof of the house they bought during happier years! Or how about they went and hung themselves with a dog leash from the dog they had when they were happier. Get a life!

[Old River Rat]

I am glad to hear that about lightening.

[TallShark]

What a stupid thing to say!
If someone is determined to die, they can just as easily slit their throat
or hang themselves. That bit cracks me up about them committing suicide with handguns purchased during happier years! LMAO thats kind of like saying a person jumped off the roof of the house they bought during happier years! Or how about they went and hung themselves with a dog leash from the dog they had when they were happier. Get a life!


Haha, I agree... Apparently Ricky is afraid of firearms. If someone wants to kill themselves, owning a gun isn't the deciding factor of whether or not they're going to follow through. If you were to alleviate the gun I doubt you would alleviate the desire to commit suicide, the person would find a way.... now that being said, some people don’t need to have firearms due to mental instability but (fortunately) this is a free country and we are allowed to own things that can cause harm or protect us from harm depending on which side of the fence you’re on.;)

[sherrill]

Ah, there's the problem. May I recommend:

http://www.guinness.com/en-us/img/beer_pint_250.jpg

Best if consumed in a dark pub in Ireland, might I add.

[weary]

What a stupid thing to say!
Get a life!
One of the reason threads get boring are comments like this. We are all capable of deciding whether a comment is stupid. You needn't tell us. Argue against a thread if you wish. Say: "If someone is determined to die, they can just as easily slit their throat or hang themselves. That bit cracks me up about them committing suicide with handguns purchased during happier years! LMAO thats kind of like saying a person jumped off the roof of the house they bought during happier years! Or how about they went and hung themselves with a dog leash from the dog they had when they were happier."

But commenting on the abilities and life of a commentor, adds nothing constructive, and serves no purpose.

Besides those of us who have followed the comments of Rick over the years know that he has a good life, and is not stupid -- especially when he is agreeing with me.

Weary

[sevensixtwo187]

I have to agree with this.

The NPS Morning Report regularly reports Rangers dealing with suicides in our parks. Many no doubt were committed with handguns purchased years before during happier times.

The guns may not have been the cause of any of those tragedies, but they certainly made the job easier, which isn't a good thing.

A firearm is a morally neutral object. It is neither intrinsically evil or good. It is a tool. The user of that tool - a human being - is not morally neutral. He/she is capable of good or evil. Does anyone honestly believe that there were any less suicides prior to the advent of firearms? Plenty of folks go the carbon monoxide route. Should we ban or eliminate motor vehicles? When does personal responsibility for ones actions finally begin?

Not trying to blast anyone in particular ... just wanted the soap box for a few minutes. :)

[Sierra Echo]

One of the reason threads get boring are comments like this. We are all capable of deciding whether a comment is stupid. You needn't tell us. Argue against a thread if you wish. Say: "If someone is determined to die, they can just as easily slit their throat or hang themselves. That bit cracks me up about them committing suicide with handguns purchased during happier years! LMAO thats kind of like saying a person jumped off the roof of the house they bought during happier years! Or how about they went and hung themselves with a dog leash from the dog they had when they were happier."

But commenting on the abilities and life of a commentor, adds nothing constructive, and serves no purpose.

Besides those of us who have followed the comments of Rick over the years know that he has a good life, and is not stupid -- especially when he is agreeing with me.

Weary

I have called stupid or idiot quite a few times on this forum. Never once have you posted a post saying what you just said to me. Your hypocrisy is a turn off.

[kayak karl]

i wear orange during hunting season. what is the color for hiker season :D

[TD55]

I think what I had forgotten was my frame of mind when I wrote the first post. I am retiring soon from a very stressful job. I was hoping hiking would be an escape from it and all the a#!holes I have to deal with. It gets old. I guess like any job. Then I got onto this string where it mentioned suspicious persons on the AT. Then I read about murders. I got a bit mad. I guess I got off on the deep end, but honestly, I was only trying to impart some helpful information. Also, truth be known, I had a few Bud Lights. :banana

Don't worry. Once you get away from that job and begin hiking you will decompress, chill out, gain some insight and wisdom and your problem with beer selection will improve.:sun

[Old River Rat]

I hope so . . .

[trailangelbronco]

This is the funniest damn thread that I have ever read.

[DapperD]

I have called stupid or idiot quite a few times on this forum. Never once have you posted a post saying what you just said to me. Your hypocrisy is a turn off.Technically by being a member here on this forum you are in violation of the Whiteblaze member usage agreement #2:http://whiteblaze.net/index.php?page=agreement You have the right to disagree with other's post's but you are supposed to do it in a respectful and civil way. Calling people "stupid" or "idiot" or stating that they "have no life" is not that way.:-?

[Tin Man]

gun ownership and suicide are correlated in the following article. i am guessing it is easier and more pleasant way to off oneself than self slitting throat (eww) and hanging (choke for a long while). it's all part of that instant gratification thing that americans are famous for.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2007-releases/press04102007.html

[Father Dragon]

i wear orange during hunting season. what is the color for hiker season :D

No color per say, just make sure you get all your clothing from the North Face and/or Golite ... that way people will recognize you as a real hiker and not some freakish mountain lunatic. :rolleyes:

[Sierra Echo]

Technically by being a member here on this forum you are in violation of the Whiteblaze member usage agreement #2:http://whiteblaze.net/index.php?page=agreement You have the right to disagree with other's post's but you are supposed to do it in a respectful and civil way. Calling people "stupid" or "idiot" or stating that they "have no life" is not that way.:-?


So sue me. Or better yet, feel free to call my Mother!

[Edie]

This thread went South, way South. Have we covered abortion yet?

[Father Dragon]

This thread went South, way South. Have we covered abortion yet?

Yes but only metaphorically

One thing I'll add though is that there is a dire threat of commies contaminating our precious bodily fluids...

ever noticed commies only drink vodka? ... suspicious if you ask me.

[DapperD]

So sue me. Or better yet, feel free to call my Mother!Unfortunately I wouldn't waste my time or dime on insolence:rolleyes:

[Sierra Echo]

Unfortunately I wouldn't waste my time or dime on insolence:rolleyes:


Oh you're such a better person then me!
OH! In case you're really dense, that was sarcasm! :D

[Tinker]

The best way to deal with weird/suspicious people -

Offer me a few bucks and I'll be on my way ;).

[Gray Blazer]

Gentlemen, no fighting in here! This is the war room!

[sevensixtwo187]

This thread is the best laugh I have had in a long time!

[TD55]

Wonder what they are saying about all of us over at the weird/suspicious characters forum site???:-? Maybe we are the weird/suspicious characters??? This is getting kind of confusing.

[Old Hiker]

No color per say, just make sure you get all your clothing from the North Face and/or Golite ... that way people will recognize you as a real hiker and not some freakish mountain lunatic. :rolleyes:

But, but, but.... what if the freakish mountain lunatic just slit my throat, hung me by my dog's leash and then shot me, just to steal my North Face and/or Golite gear?

Better yet, what if the freakish mountain lunatic just slit my throat, hung me by my dog's leash and then shot me because I was too CHEAP to buy the aforementioned North Face and/or Golite gear so he/she (equal opportunity offender) could steal it?

[Old River Rat]

Hey guys . . .

I started a new post . . . Sleep System.

Let's spar over that now.

[rickb]

But, but, but.... what if the freakish mountain lunatic just slit my throat, hung me by my dog's leash and then shot me, just to steal my North Face and/or Golite gear?



Not sure if you were aware of this thru hiker murder when you posted the above:


April 1975 — Thru-hiker Janice Balza, 22, of Madison, Wisconsin, killed by a hatchet wielded by hiker/tree surgeon Paul Bigley, 51, after breakfast at a shelter in northeast Tennessee. He died in state prison in Nashville. He killed her for her pack, a brand he coveted, testimony revealed.

[kanga]

Unfortunately I wouldn't waste my time or dime on insolence:rolleyes:

You just did Einstein.

[JJJ]

Are guns becoming the new hiking poles on the AT -or WB?
Some would say they are unnecessary, and others an absolute benefit.

Hiking poles and dynamite are also morally neutral -they are just tools, useful tools.

When everyone is finally: convinced, "sees the light", the utter necessity of carrying a legal concealed weapon while on the AT or anywhere,
even church for that matter, will everyone feel, actually be, safer in their particular daily pursuit of happiness?

On the other hand, guns don't prevent crime, people do.

Or do people, especially those who legally carry for personal or public protection now, feel safer when they carry firearms, but most people do not.

Maybe when everyone carrys a weapon they will need to UP the ante to really be or feel safe.

"Hey, my hiking poles have missile launchers on them. How 'bout yours?"

"Whoa dude, Awesome! Guess my Pepsi can bozooka is worthless now! I never could get it to work on cold, windy days anyway."


What I'm getting at is, "In the future, will everyone's clothing be made of Kevlar?"

[JJJ]

You just did Einstein.
:D
Hey friend, gotta quarter for a cup of sarcasm?

[JJJ]

Hey guys . . .

I started a new post . . . Sleep System.

Let's spar over that now.

I believe carrying a concealed sleep system -not shelters.

Shelters attract bears and hiking poles.

[weary]

Are guns becoming the new hiking poles on the AT -or WB?
Some would say they are unnecessary, and others an absolute benefit.

Hiking poles and dynamite are also morally neutral -they are just tools, useful tools.

When everyone is finally: convinced, "sees the light", the utter necessity of carrying a legal concealed weapon while on the AT or anywhere,
even church for that matter, will everyone feel, actually be, safer in their particular daily pursuit of happiness?

On the other hand, guns don't prevent crime, people do.

Or do people, especially those who legally carry for personal or public protection now, feel safer when they carry firearms, but most people do not.

Maybe when everyone carrys a weapon they will need to UP the ante to really be or feel safe.

"Hey, my hiking poles have missile launchers on them. How 'bout yours?"

"Whoa dude, Awesome! Guess my Pepsi can bozooka is worthless now! I never could get it to work on cold, windy days anyway."


What I'm getting at is, "In the future, will everyone's clothing be made of Kevlar?"
Carry whatever you want as long as you realize that guns are illegal in some places and may result in penalties, and incidentally dangerous if used carelessly or by inexperienced people.

The main difference between guns and hiking sticks in this thread is that scores of people have testified that hiking sticks and poles have helped their hiking.

No such positive testimony has been heard about the benefits of guns on the trail. It's all speculation. No one has yet reported using their weapons to drive away suspicious or weird people.

Weary

[JJJ]

....
The main difference between guns and hiking sticks in this thread is that scores of people have testified that hiking sticks and poles have helped their hiking.

No such positive testimony has been heard about the benefits of guns on the trail. It's all speculation. No one has yet reported using their weapons to drive away suspicious or weird people.

Weary

If people feel safer carrying a gun, that would seem to be a benefit i.e. sleep more soundly knowing they have deadly force at arms length, under thier pillow, somewhere in their pack, wherever -even if it can't be empirically measured.

Isn't that a necessary part of the inner-hiker experience -feeling safer in a broader range of physical and maybe even social environments -busting boundries of fear, comfort zones, and insecurities?

If yes, a gun is just like a hiking pole.
Some think they need them, some think they don't.
If being able to carry a gun is what gets people out hiking and overcoming their fears, then maybe they are a good thing.

[JAK]

I like a big stick. No gun. No hiking poles. Just a big stick.
If it gets to heavy I can drop it and make another one later.

[weary]

If people feel safer carrying a gun, that would seem to be a benefit i.e. sleep more soundly knowing they have deadly force at arms length, under thier pillow, somewhere in their pack, wherever -even if it can't be empirically measured.

Isn't that a necessary part of the inner-hiker experience -feeling safer in a broader range of physical and maybe even social environments -busting boundries of fear, comfort zones, and insecurities?

If yes, a gun is just like a hiking pole.
Some think they need them, some think they don't.
If being able to carry a gun is what gets people out hiking and overcoming their fears, then maybe they are a good thing.
Unless everyone is carrying these days, judging from the snores I hear in trail shelters, most people quickly get over their fears, with or without using a weapon for a pillow.

Weary

[turtle fast]

How about to ward off the weird/crazy......you act crazier than them? Bark at things, wave at the trees saying hello, laugh like an evil character from Scooby Doo intermittently, make a tinfoil hat and say you are waiting fot the mothership. I think it would work...also works well for clearing out shelters for peaceful night sleeps. ;)

[TD55]

I like a big stick. No gun. No hiking poles. Just a big stick.
If it gets to heavy I can drop it and make another one later.

Best JAK post ever.

[daddytwosticks]

...agreed. And it makes sense! :)

[kanga]

:D
Hey friend, gotta quarter for a cup of sarcasm?

I'll give you a dollar if you'll make it a double!

[Skidsteer]

Are guns becoming the new hiking poles on the AT -or WB?
Some would say they are unnecessary, and others an absolute benefit.

Hiking poles and dynamite are also morally neutral -they are just tools, useful tools.

When everyone is finally: convinced, "sees the light", the utter necessity of carrying a legal concealed weapon while on the AT or anywhere,
even church for that matter, will everyone feel, actually be, safer in their particular daily pursuit of happiness?

On the other hand, guns don't prevent crime, people do.

Or do people, especially those who legally carry for personal or public protection now, feel safer when they carry firearms, but most people do not.

Maybe when everyone carrys a weapon they will need to UP the ante to really be or feel safe.

"Hey, my hiking poles have missile launchers on them. How 'bout yours?"

"Whoa dude, Awesome! Guess my Pepsi can bozooka is worthless now! I never could get it to work on cold, windy days anyway."


What I'm getting at is, "In the future, will everyone's clothing be made of Kevlar?"

An armed society is a polite society.

[Tin Man]

An armed society is a polite society.

Yup...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vwt55TQq-3k/SgHEbUL8hQI/AAAAAAAAEkE/s6C_sLv604c/s320/dirty-harry-clint-eastwood1.JPG

[weary]

Skidsteer; I guess it's a matter of preference. Personally, I can't stand polite paranoids.

[DustyTrail]

people and guns definitly do not mix.
now a man and a gun, not so bad; two men and a gun, terrible eventually.

in context of course.

[Old River Rat]

"paranoia" is a popular word . . .

my opinion is:

own a gun and keep it with you at all times you could be called prudent . .

take it out and point it at people and things without warrant, you are, for one thing, paranoid . . .

name calling is an attempt to gain leverage in a debate in which you are unable to make headway . . .

now, how many other names can we come up with for gun owners? let's see . . . . . . . .

[DapperD]

No such positive testimony has been heard about the benefits of guns on the trail. It's all speculation. No one has yet reported using their weapons to drive away suspicious or weird people.

WearyMaybe that's because no armed hikers have been attacked yet. Police carry offduty all the time and there are many instances where they have been able to thwart holdups, violent assaults, etc...Maybe if some of the victims who lost their lives while hiking the AT had been armed, and were able to stop their assaults, you would be hearing about it. Unfortunately, sometimes one's hiking philosophy of the AT being a place of natural peace and tranquility can unfortunately fail to identify with the reality of the world today.

[Rocket Jones]

I believe it was Robert Heinlein who said, "An armed society is a polite society." If more people were responsibly armed, then someone looking to do harm would be less likely to because there would be a real chance that the intended victim could and would know how to defend themselves.

Note well that word "responsibly". Used to be most everyone knew how and when to use a firearm. Nowadays, not so much.

[TallShark]

now, how many other names can we come up with for gun owners? let's see . . . . . . . .


...Smart, not naive, The Duke.

[weary]

"paranoia" is a popular word . . .

my opinion is:

own a gun and keep it with you at all times you could be called prudent . .

take it out and point it at people and things without warrant, you are, for one thing, paranoid . . .

name calling is an attempt to gain leverage in a debate in which you are unable to make headway . . .

now, how many other names can we come up with for gun owners? let's see . . . . . . . .
No one as yet has told us about an incident where carrying a gun on the Appalachian Trail has protected them. So far it has been all speculation. And it will continue to be all speculation until a potential killer notifies a victim of his or her intentions, giving the gun carrier time to respond.

It may happen at some point. A carrier dreaming of suicide but unable to pull the trigger himself, might possibly entice a gun carrier to shoot him. But as police officers well know, that is not a totally rare situation. Police occasionally are confronted with situations where they eventually have been forced to use deadly force by situations, which eventually they realize gave them a role in a suicide, or suicide attempt.

I don't doubt that situations have occurred where a gun has protected a hiker. But it is a one in a multi-million situation or we would have heard about it by now.

I'm more worried about hikers stirred up by all the paranoia shooting innocent persons. Or persons who want to be killed -- but who lack the courage to do the act themselves.

Weary

[Cool AT Breeze]

Have you seen the Public Defender?
I own one. Bought it off a hiker.

[Kelleelynn]

I just spent a little over a hour reading all of the posts... Some gave me a good laugh but alot warranted a *** lol I was really curious on this topic as I am a woman hiker that almost always is hiking with my daughter. We have encountered people from all walks of life and I can't say I have ever truly been scared.

I like to give everyone a chance and not judge someone by their looks, at the same time I don't trust anyone; trust is earned not a given right. If I think someone could potentially give me a hassle I dont run and hide or make up lies. I actually like to know where that person is at all times. Keep the enemy close!

I dont carry weapons or pepper spray, who needs the added weight or hassle. When it comes right down to it, when you really need it... your not going to have time to find it. ANYTHING can be used as a weapon. My nails across your eyes is alot quicker than pulling out pepper spray and spraying you! My foot going between your legs, man or woman, will bring you to the ground. Your in the woods, I bet your going to be in arms length of a stick or rock. I am thankful I have never had to resort to these measures on the trail and hopefully never will, but if push comes to shove, I will protect myself and my daughter.

[Old River Rat]

if push comes to shove, I will protect myself and my daughter.

of course you will and amen!

in my very first post, i offered two examples of defensive tactics. You listed a couple of more. bravo. your daughter can be proud of you for being so determined not to allow her or you to become a victim.

anyway, after my post . . . i became the bad guy all of a sudden. all i am saying is . . . in your bag of tricks to stay alive on the trail, whether it be from snake bite to being hit by lightning . . . have a trick to save your life from an assailant.

i just got home from work . . . and i did work an aggravated assault last night . . . all these guns . . . i am growing weary.

[Old River Rat]

check this out . . . it was one of my suggestions for self defense . . .

http://jiu-jitsusensei.blogspot.com/2007/11/brachial-plexus-origin-in-action.html

[Gray Blazer]

I own one. Bought it off a hiker.

Pretty cool. A legal Sawed off.

Have you tried the Supreme Court Justice?

[sevensixtwo187]

No one as yet has told us about an incident where carrying a gun on the Appalachian Trail has protected them. So far it has been all speculation. And it will continue to be all speculation until a potential killer notifies a victim of his or her intentions, giving the gun carrier time to respond.

It may happen at some point. A carrier dreaming of suicide but unable to pull the trigger himself, might possibly entice a gun carrier to shoot him. But as police officers well know, that is not a totally rare situation. Police occasionally are confronted with situations where they eventually have been forced to use deadly force by situations, which eventually they realize gave them a role in a suicide, or suicide attempt.

I don't doubt that situations have occurred where a gun has protected a hiker. But it is a one in a multi-million situation or we would have heard about it by now.

I'm more worried about hikers stirred up by all the paranoia shooting innocent persons. Or persons who want to be killed -- but who lack the courage to do the act themselves.

Weary

There is a great deal of evidence that suggests that regions of the country where concealed carry is the norm have much lower crime rates. The areas that have the strictest gun laws tend to be the ones that also have the highest rates of violent crimes. Do some research and you will see. Why would the trail be any different? Here in Western Kentucky most are well armed and we do indeed have a very polite society and very low crime rates. Look at Chicago and the draconian anti-gun laws there. Yeah, it's a safe place alright. I do not begrudge you your opinion on the matter. If you feel like you do not need or want to carry a firearm to defend yourself then that is fine. Just please do not try to tell me that I do not have that right to. The right to defend ones life is, along with the right to exist in the first place, the most basic right there is. Also, I for one really do get tired of all the old red herrings like "I am worried about some crazed paranoid person carrying a firearm shooting someone by mistake" Do the research on that also. You will find out just how rare that is.

RANT OFF

[JAK]

It might be a little more complicated than that. Maybe not. I am not sure Western Kentucky and Chicago are fair comparisons. Chicago is a big city. I am not sure what polite society means in this context. I live in New Brunswick. Is it a polite society? Its about the same as Maine. Some real ********, but what am I supposed to do, shoot them?

[JAK]

Isn't a society even more polite when you have the freedom to punch someone in
the nose without much fear of getting slashed with a knife or shot in the face?

[full conditions]

It might be a little more complicated than that. Maybe not. I am not sure Western Kentucky and Chicago are fair comparisons. Chicago is a big city. I am not sure what polite society means in this context. I live in New Brunswick. Is it a polite society? Its about the same as Maine. Some real ********, but what am I supposed to do, shoot them?
JAK - you are, of course, right. Its way more complicated than that. Here's the deal though - people dont want complicated. They hate complicated. If it cant fit on a bumper sticker well then, forget it - it just wont hold their attention. It will never occur to people that even without the draconian gun laws places like Chicago and DC are going to be crime ridden and that violent crime probably isnt going to be a huge issue in rural areas regardless of whether folks are packin' or not. Folks on both sides of this gun thing would rather think with their guts rather than put in the time to do some genuine research and maybe challange their own preconceptions.

[jody]

If you are the attacker you deserve to be stopped by whatever means. If you are the attacked, you have the right to defend yourself by whatever means. In today's society you probably need to be more concerned about being sued! I don't think the good ole friendly bar fight exists anymore if it ever did!

[sevensixtwo187]

It might be a little more complicated than that. Maybe not. I am not sure Western Kentucky and Chicago are fair comparisons. Chicago is a big city. I am not sure what polite society means in this context. I live in New Brunswick. Is it a polite society? Its about the same as Maine. Some real ********, but what am I supposed to do, shoot them?

I think your reply is just a tad on the facetious side. Why aren't they fair comparisons? Are the people there any different than the people here? Are they less capable of civilized behavior? Does that imply that residents of big cities get a pass on respectable, civilized behavior? A polite society means that I can sleep with my doors unlocked and property out in my yard unsecured with a reasonable expectation that it will remain there. It means that when I am in town, I can reasonably expect not to be mugged by some a**ho%%. It means that if I were to awaken one night to someone trying to forcibly enter my home, I have a right to stop them from doing so. Using deadly force if need be. The individuals who may be the potential perps of these actions know full well that people here are generally armed. They are also aware of this states deadly force laws. I am quite confident that this is weighed in the balance when deciding whether or not it is worth attempting these criminal actions. One might not be so keen to steal a mans property or harm him or his family if there is a chance that one may end up on a slab in the morgue for attempting to do so. I have also grown very weary of the old canard about "shooting at everybody for every little reason" Stop it. It is a poor rebuttal. It just flat out does not happen. Do some research on all the states with concealed carry laws.

Thank you. :)

[couscous]

"Ideas for Dealing with Odd/Suspicious People" - the hikers I met on the trail the past few days were silent unless I greeted them first .. so it appears that most hikers deal with odd/suspicious people by being silent unless responding to a greeting.

[sevensixtwo187]

"Ideas for Dealing with Odd/Suspicious People" - the hikers I met on the trail the past few days were silent unless I greeted them first .. so it appears that most hikers deal with odd/suspicious people by being silent unless responding to a greeting.

I noticed that on the AT in the Smokies back in June. I guess I too am odd and/or suspicious! :D

[JAK]

I think your reply is just a tad on the facetious side. Why aren't they fair comparisons? Are the people there any different than the people here? Are they less capable of civilized behavior? Does that imply that residents of big cities get a pass on respectable, civilized behavior? A polite society means that I can sleep with my doors unlocked and property out in my yard unsecured with a reasonable expectation that it will remain there. It means that when I am in town, I can reasonably expect not to be mugged by some a**ho%%. It means that if I were to awaken one night to someone trying to forcibly enter my home, I have a right to stop them from doing so. Using deadly force if need be. The individuals who may be the potential perps of these actions know full well that people here are generally armed. They are also aware of this states deadly force laws. I am quite confident that this is weighed in the balance when deciding whether or not it is worth attempting these criminal actions. One might not be so keen to steal a mans property or harm him or his family if there is a chance that one may end up on a slab in the morgue for attempting to do so. I have also grown very weary of the old canard about "shooting at everybody for every little reason" Stop it. It is a poor rebuttal. It just flat out does not happen. Do some research on all the states with concealed carry laws.

Thank you. :)Thanks. Clears things up. I don't know why the term 'polite' is used in that way, I don't like it. Makes me want to punch someone in the nose, except that I might get shot.

[JAK]

Thanks. Clears things up. I don't know why the term 'polite' is used in that way, I don't like it. Makes me want to punch someone in the nose, except that I might get shot.This post was sort of meant to be funny and clever, but it isn't really. There is some irony there I was trying to get at but didn't really get there. Anyhow, for the record everyone, I respect alot of different positions on this subject. To each his own, when in Greece, and all that.

[sevensixtwo187]

This post was sort of meant to be funny and clever, but it isn't really. There is some irony there I was trying to get at but didn't really get there. Anyhow, for the record everyone, I respect alot of different positions on this subject. To each his own, when in Greece, and all that.

I hope you don't think I took it in the wrong way. I thought it was fine.

[weary]

There is a great deal of evidence that suggests that regions of the country where concealed carry is the norm have much lower crime rates. The areas that have the strictest gun laws tend to be the ones that also have the highest rates of violent crimes. Do some research and you will see. Why would the trail be any different? Here in Western Kentucky most are well armed and we do indeed have a very polite society and very low crime rates. Look at Chicago and the draconian anti-gun laws there. Yeah, it's a safe place alright. I do not begrudge you your opinion on the matter. If you feel like you do not need or want to carry a firearm to defend yourself then that is fine. Just please do not try to tell me that I do not have that right to. The right to defend ones life is, along with the right to exist in the first place, the most basic right there is. Also, I for one really do get tired of all the old red herrings like "I am worried about some crazed paranoid person carrying a firearm shooting someone by mistake" Do the research on that also. You will find out just how rare that is.

RANT OFF
I've never said you do not have a right to defend yourself. Defend yourself even with guns in places where carrying is legal.

Nor do I doubt that "There is a great deal of evidence that suggests that regions of the country where concealed carry is the norm have much lower crime rates." However, I also don't think it is a meaningful statistic. Rural states like Maine have pretty easy permit requirements. Rural states like Maine also have very little gun related crime, and very little violent crime.

Lovers and ex lovers in Maine tend to shoot each other, and make up a big percentage of violent crime. More recently drug dealers have tended to shoot people who have bought drugs and then refuse for whatever reason to pay up.

I somehow doubt if arming the entire population of the state would do much to eliminate either crime category.

But all this is beside the point. Lovers and ex lovers are not a major part of the AT population. There are even fewer hikers who have bought drugs from hikers, and then refused to pay up.

The bit of evidence that is missing is a message from any hiker who has found it useful to use a gun on the Appalachian Trail to fend off someone bent on doing him or her harm.

Weary

[DapperD]

If you are the attacker you deserve to be stopped by whatever means. If you are the attacked, you have the right to defend yourself by whatever means. In today's society you probably need to be more concerned about being sued! I don't think the good ole friendly bar fight exists anymore if it ever did!Well Jody, I think about the being sued part, yes and no. There are a lot of people who really don't have anything to get from if you were to sue them, and they even don't work the type of job where their pay could be garnished, etc...they will just up and move away. The fact of the matter is bars serve alcohol. And where alcohol is served, trouble can easily occur. Many people can have a few drinks and remain rational. Other's can drink and become irrational, abusive, even dangerous. Alcohol is a funny thing. Some refer to it as "liquid courage" in that normal, decent, law abiding folk become nasty after consuming too much of it. Just because someone can be sued doesn't mean they cannot hurt or injure other's, starting fights, etc...especially when they have allowed themselves to become intoxicated.

[pixel]

when you start to step into an elevator with someone and you get a "bad" feeling, DON'T tell yourself you're just being silly. same in the woods. if you get a "gut feeling" change course! so what if you're wrong. you can learn from it. but if you're RIGHT and you don't act on it - it may be too late. nature hasn't been taught "social graces" - it has no idea what it means to be "polite" when it feels nervous about a situation. when a deer senses danger it innately moves quickly to a safer place. so should we.

[Old River Rat]

weary . . .

you keep asking . . . give me an example of someone who has had to use a gun on a trail to avoid harm . . .

there may not be an example . . . does that mean that there will never be?

in our present terror situation in the world . . . has a terrorist every used a "dirty bomb" in an incident? No . . .

given your logic . . . since it has never happened, we need not be vigilant to the possibility.

until 9-11, no one flew a plane into the WTC.

bottom line . . . you cannot bury your head in the sand and expect all will be well.

[sevensixtwo187]

I've never said you do not have a right to defend yourself. Defend yourself even with guns in places where carrying is legal.

Nor do I doubt that "There is a great deal of evidence that suggests that regions of the country where concealed carry is the norm have much lower crime rates." However, I also don't think it is a meaningful statistic. Rural states like Maine have pretty easy permit requirements. Rural states like Maine also have very little gun related crime, and very little violent crime.

Lovers and ex lovers in Maine tend to shoot each other, and make up a big percentage of violent crime. More recently drug dealers have tended to shoot people who have bought drugs and then refuse for whatever reason to pay up.

I somehow doubt if arming the entire population of the state would do much to eliminate either crime category.

But all this is beside the point. Lovers and ex lovers are not a major part of the AT population. There are even fewer hikers who have bought drugs from hikers, and then refused to pay up.

The bit of evidence that is missing is a message from any hiker who has found it useful to use a gun on the Appalachian Trail to fend off someone bent on doing him or her harm.

Weary

I actually do see the point you are trying to make. I really don't see how that statistic is not meaningful. With that said, I think ... no I really hope you are correct about the trail being an exceptionally safe place. I do believe that and I hope that neither of us is wrong about it. Perhaps because of that, there will never be very many cases where someone uses a firearm to defend them self on the trail. However, I for one do not wished to be unprepared if I should happen upon that rare case on the trail.

By the way, I have alway wanted to visit Maine so very much. My best friend in the Army was originally from there. :)

[TD55]

This thread was funny as heck for awhile. Than all the paranoia, insecure, scardy cat stuff showed up and put a damper on the whole thing. Sort of like what happens when a gun toter shows up on the trail.

[SassyWindsor]

From a recent, really bad, experience I've begun toting my .380 PPK if in a small group or alone. I haven't got the time to be afraid or try to hide/avoid from some predator on a trail, but I will take the time to defend myself, using deadly force if necessary. I guess it's the bad economy and/or bad drugs bringing out all the loons to the woods.

[weary]

....I guess it's the bad economy and/or bad drugs bringing out all the loons to the woods.
I don't know of any evidence that there are more "loons" in the woods than ever. Or that the economy has much to do with in one way or another.

There always have been a few. A sad fact of life that guns have little chance of avoiding, unless the villain is so loony as to announce his intentions in time for you to shoot him.

Any way, I spent four days in Baxter Park last week, hiking and camping on the slopes of Katahdin. I didn't see any loony behavior, unless one considers attempting to climb the mountain in a heat wave loony.

Weary

[john gault]

More recently drug dealers have tended to shoot people who have bought drugs and then refuse for whatever reason to pay up.

I somehow doubt if arming the entire population of the state would do much to eliminate either crime category.

Weary
Weary, sounds like Maine needs to get some laws on the books banning drugs, that should fix the problem. But if it doesn't then I guess you'll have to ban the guns, I'm sure that'll work:D


;)

[Blue Jay]

I guess it's the bad economy and/or bad drugs bringing out all the loons to the woods.

A bad economy would drive scumbags away from the trail because there is even less money out there. Drugs (other than small amounts of weed) are also much more rare on the trail. If anything these factors would drive the scum AWAY from the trail.:sun

[superman]

I have no problem with carrying a gun to protect myself from obnoxious people. As a New Englander I reserve the right to say "oops" after finding out the person was only joking.:)

[Gray Blazer]

weary . . .

you keep asking . . . give me an example of someone who has had to use a gun on a trail to avoid harm . . .

there may not be an example . . . does that mean that there will never be?




So far I've done a pretty good job of concealing the evidence.

[sevensixtwo187]

This thread was funny as heck for awhile. Than all the paranoia, insecure, scardy cat stuff showed up and put a damper on the whole thing. Sort of like what happens when a gun toter shows up on the trail.

I just love ad hominem rebuttals. I mean, when you can't successfully argue your point of view, just start name calling. I guess that makes me paranoid, insecure, and ... {horror of horrors} a SCARDY CAT! But, I will gladly be all of those things and retain the right to defend myself and family wherever I may be.

[JJJ]

This thread was funny as heck for awhile. Than all the paranoia, insecure, scardy cat stuff showed up and put a damper on the whole thing. Sort of like what happens when a gun toter shows up on the trail.

OH! the obvious solution.
Don't know why we didn't think of it sooner!
Water Balloons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S77dRFffKoc)

[TD55]

I just love ad hominem rebuttals. I mean, when you can't successfully argue your point of view, just start name calling. I guess that makes me paranoid, insecure, and ... {horror of horrors} a SCARDY CAT! But, I will gladly be all of those things and retain the right to defend myself and family wherever I may be.

My post was not meant to be a rebuttal and I did not call anyone a name. If you attached yourself to my comments, thats on you. My opinion is based on over four decades of hiking the AT. My experience has been that if a hiker shows up with a weapon they are the one that may be viewed as weird and suspicious and cause other hikers to move on.
I have no problem or objection to a person that is trained and has the proper permits and good sense to conceal the weapon. There are certain people who I would appreciate their carrying a weapon and some that I would encourage to do so. I just don't think general discussions about the pro's and con's of 2nd amendment rights is particularly relevant to hiking the AT.

[JJJ]

Did someone say 2nd amendment? (http://www.northernsun.com/n/s/1038.html)

[kanga]

My post was not meant to be a rebuttal and I did not call anyone a name. If you attached yourself to my comments, thats on you. My opinion is based on over four decades of hiking the AT. My experience has been that if a hiker shows up with a weapon they are the one that may be viewed as weird and suspicious and cause other hikers to move on.
I have no problem or objection to a person that is trained and has the proper permits and good sense to conceal the weapon. There are certain people who I would appreciate their carrying a weapon and some that I would encourage to do so. I just don't think general discussions about the pro's and con's of 2nd amendment rights is particularly relevant to hiking the AT.
wait. so what you're saying is that if i take a weapon out on the trail, people will leave me alone? ****, i'm bringing every gun i own next time!

[IceAge]

Someone shoot this thread, it needs to die.

To all gun-toters, you win. Enjoy carrying your gun. I hope you never need it

To all non gun-toters, you win. Enjoy the peaceful woods. I hope you never need a gun, either.

To everyone else, you win. Enjoy not having to read this non-argument anymore.