Neels Gap to Tesnatee Gap closed for April 09

[Rain Man]

I just received a copy of this announcement--

"Due to the recent bear activity and new FS policy, the AT from Neels Gap to Tesnatee Gap is now closed to any camping activity for one month, effective immediately."

Right now I don't have any links for more information. I take it that this section will be off-limits for camping for all or almost all of April 2009.

Sorry the title didn't allow more. The section isn't closed, the section is closed for any camping activity.

Rain:sunMan

.

[bigmac_in]

Is this related to the missing packs reported previously?

[Lilred]

Is this related to the missing packs reported previously?

Yes it is. It's believed to be a very active and hungry bear.

[drdewrag]

No crap? I was feeding thru hikers cheeseburgers up at Tray Gap a week ago or so and someone told me they had seen a bear around there. Also someone who said that someone's pack was taken and consensus was that it was a person rather than a bear. Guess not, huh???

[Blissful]

Bet it's the bear that likes to hibernate in the shelter at Whitley Gap.

[SGT Rock]

Get a hunter on it.

[Lone Wolf]

i'd be terrified to even hike through that section. i'd opt for a shuttle around it. serious as a heart attack

[SGT Rock]

Now that is funny right there. I gotta get the ice tea off my screen.

Edit:

here ya go: http://www.raincitystory.com/flash/screenclean.swf

[Elder]

Lone Wolf won't be scared if he had Lekis!!!

Heehehehehehe

But Seriosly...

[Spogatz]

I was hoping to go there this weekend...I don't know if I can bear it....hehehe

[Blissful]

i'd be terrified to even hike through that section. i'd opt for a shuttle around it. serious as a heart attack


Esp with that foodbag "pillow" under your head.....


:D

[briarpatch]

i'd be terrified to even hike through that section. i'd opt for a shuttle around it. serious as a heart attack

Yellow-blazin' hiker trash!!

[BitBucket]

Like the Rock said Wolf...that's definitely nothing to snivel at...

hope you're continuing to progress well...

[Egads]

Like Rock said, the only outcome is for a ranger or hunter to shoot the problem bear

[urbansix]

Camped there last summer....saw two bears that evening. The first was about what I imagined a bear would look like in person. The second was about twice as big as the first (probably an impression exaggerated by sphincter factor). This was around Baggs Creek Gap. A few days later another whiteblazer reported seeing the biggest bear he'd ever seen in the same vicinity.

[take-a-knee]

Get a hunter on it.

I'm already scoping that out. A friend of mine killed a bear not too far from there several years ago. He was tasty (the bear). The only problem is no one can do anything until SEPT.

[take-a-knee]

Camped there last summer....saw two bears that evening. The first was about what I imagined a bear would look like in person. The second was about twice as big as the first (probably an impression exaggerated by sphincter factor). This was around Baggs Creek Gap. A few days later another whiteblazer reported seeing the biggest bear he'd ever seen in the same vicinity.

I can remember more than one post about bear sightings on that stretch of trail. North of Tray Mtn also.

[max patch]

Pathetic.

Bear in the woods!!! Lets kill it!!!

[JaxHiker]

I didn't see any bears there in Nov. :)

[take-a-knee]

Pathetic.

Bear in the woods!!! Lets kill it!!!

Yeah, right. I'm dumb and ignorant, just like all those masters prepared biologists at GA DNR who reestablished the black bear population in the north GA mountains (and established the hunting season for them). That population, by the way, is at or near carrying capacity for that ecosystem. Since a black bear has no natural predators, I suppose you would find starvation for them to be more "humane". All you uneducated syrupy Rubes oughta go find something constructive to do, or maybe enlighten yourself a bit.

[max patch]

Yeah, right. I'm dumb and ignorant

You said it, not me.

You don't kill a bear because it inconviences your hiking experience. Learn to properly hang your food; or don't stay at areas where bears are known to be. To kill an animal in his habitat -- where we are the guest! -- because of this is ignorant.

Georgia has a bear hunting season which takes into account the factors you mentioned.

Although I bet you'd rather tie up a smelly food bag and sit back in your camp chair ready to bag a big un.

[odog]

Link to Forest Service advisory

http://www.fs.fed.us/conf/conditions/index.shtml

Josh

[take-a-knee]

You said it, not me.

You don't kill a bear because it inconviences your hiking experience. Learn to properly hang your food; or don't stay at areas where bears are known to be. To kill an animal in his habitat -- where we are the guest! -- because of this is ignorant.

Georgia has a bear hunting season which takes into account the factors you mentioned.

Although I bet you'd rather tie up a smelly food bag and sit back in your camp chair ready to bag a big un.

Wrong on both counts dude. I will kill a bear 'cause I can and 'cause they are tasty and the hide looks really cool. When I hike I ALWAYS hang my food bag (and toothpaste) PCT style and I spent a tidy little sum for the 725# spectra line to do so. I also spent $500 for a lifetime license for the state of GA, all of which goes (by law) for wildlife research and management. What have you contributed to protect wildlife in GA?

[CaseyB]

Georgia has a bear hunting season which takes into account the factors you mentioned.

Maybe you missed it, he mentioned that earlier:



The only problem is no one can do anything until SEPT.

[Red Hat]

What is that, 5.5 miles or so of trail? Most folks stay at the hostel or cabins at Neels. Only a few camped around the Cowrock area. Closing it for camping is not a big deal in my opinion. The bears aren't going to bother you if you're just walking through...

[Ekul]

What is that, 5.5 miles or so of trail? Most folks stay at the hostel or cabins at Neels. Only a few camped around the Cowrock area. Closing it for camping is not a big deal in my opinion. The bears aren't going to bother you if you're just walking through...


correct. better camping on NOBO side of hogpen gap neway. If you get up testicle(hate that climb) keep moving its a short walk down the other side to hogpen

[Ekul]

You said it, not me.

You don't kill a bear because it inconviences your hiking experience. Learn to properly hang your food; or don't stay at areas where bears are known to be. To kill an animal in his habitat -- where we are the guest! -- because of this is ignorant.

Georgia has a bear hunting season which takes into account the factors you mentioned.

Although I bet you'd rather tie up a smelly food bag and sit back in your camp chair ready to bag a big un.

Problem bears just dont go away!

[sheepdog]

http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:2tB1k_v9nmbL2M::www.ashlandbaptistchu rch.org/aabc/wp-content/elmer-fudd.jpg (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ashlandbaptistchurch.org/aabc/wp-content/elmer-fudd.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ashlandbaptistchurch.org/aabc/ministries/mens-ministry/&h=250&w=223&sz=34&tbnid=2tB1k_v9nmbL2M::&tbnh=111&tbnw=99&prev=/images%3Fq%3Delmer%2Bfudd%2Bpictures&usg=__Xpi0fnAUtP3me40kXylMUFJ1_eI=&ei=fYHSSdyhK6nynQeL7pzMBQ&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=1)I say kill dat wascally bear.

[saimyoji]

Get a hunter on it.


i like this one (http://www.onlinemoviemagazine.com/preview/listing/hunter_tylo/Hunter_Tylo-NA-01_v2.jpg)



Pathetic.

Bear in the woods!!! Lets kill it!!!

and none for you.

[kanga]

a bear! omg!! KILL IT! intruder! intruder!

problem bears arise because people are idiots. pick your crap up. put your food up. you leave a pack with food in it lying around camp where the bear can get it, it's gonna get gone. common sense is like a superpower these days.

[Ekul]

a bear! omg!! KILL IT! intruder! intruder!



a bear omg dont get killed by it

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/bearhunt.asp

[Lone Wolf]

a bear! omg!! KILL IT! intruder! intruder!

problem bears arise because people are idiots. pick your crap up. put your food up. you leave a pack with food in it lying around camp where the bear can get it, it's gonna get gone. common sense is like a superpower these days.

sleep with your food and have an attitude with any critter that tries to get it. all this bear baggin' and hangin' crap is for the birds

[SGT Rock]

Kill it.

I wanna try bear. And I like doing something just because Max thinks it is a bad idea. If Max hats it, that is a sure endorsement of it.

Win/Win.

[Blissful]

I thought the problem was the hikers did hang it according to the journal and the bear got it anyway. If it is a nuisance like that and used to human food, then the bear is already aggressive, in trouble diet-wise (and thus health wise) and needs to be moved via a bear trap or done away with.

[Lone Wolf]

I thought the problem was the hikers did hang it according to the journal and the bear got it anyway. If it is a nuisance like that and used to human food, then the bear is already aggressive, in trouble diet-wise (and thus health wise) and needs to be moved via a bear trap or done away with.

no, hikers need to be more aggressive and sleep with their food and give any bear hell if it tries to get it

[SGT Rock]

Has anyone told the Bear it is to stay between Neels Gap and Tesnatee? IF it doesn't get the memo it might go up the trail in either direction for more Ramen. Once a bear develops the taste for Ramen, there is no stopping them.

[MoodyBluer]

no, hikers need to be more aggressive and sleep with their food and give any bear hell if it tries to get it


Any suggestions if the bear decides to call your bluff? Assuming you are unarmed of course...

I think we need to take the bear out...my son's roommate at Univ of Ga is a wildlife biology major and he says the bear pop. in N Ga is near unsustainable levels...I remember a couple years ago of some hikers reporting a bear cub was hanging around either Unicoi Gap or Blue Mtn Shelter and begging for food. Turned out after DNR euthanized it that it was a yearling bear that was the size of a cub due to starvation.

[traildust]

Just keep walking and grin and bear it.

[Ramble~On]

sleep with your food and have an attitude with any critter that tries to get it. all this bear baggin' and hangin' crap is for the birds

Bingo!
I hiked through there last week and there were some folks who lost things (including two full foodbags) to bears. I didn't see any.
I sleep in my tent 99% of the time and my food bag is my pillow.
There are a lot of hikers this year who are "concerned" about bears. Most of them are from cities and have spent too much time watching horror movies.
My understanding of the folks who lost things is that they had no clue as to how high or far from a tree trunk to bear bag.
If you're gonna do it....do it right otherwise you're basically baiting the bears and causing massive problems for those who come behind you.
My .02

[take-a-knee]

Has anyone told the Bear it is to stay between Neels Gap and Tesnatee? IF it doesn't get the memo it might go up the trail in either direction for more Ramen. Once a bear develops the taste for Ramen, there is no stopping them.

Good point, black bears aren't like whitetails, they are big-time roamers. The smaller ones especially get pushed around by larger bears.

[take-a-knee]

Bingo!
I hiked through there last week and there were some folks who lost things (including two full foodbags) to bears. I didn't see any.
I sleep in my tent 99% of the time and my food bag is my pillow.
There are a lot of hikers this year who are "concerned" about bears. Most of them are from cities and have spent too much time watching horror movies.
My understanding of the folks who lost things is that they had no clue as to how high or far from a tree trunk to bear bag.
If you're gonna do it....do it right otherwise you're basically baiting the bears and causing massive problems for those who come behind you.
My .02

If you get it too close to the trunk the squirrels will get it. If the bear decides it is worth breaking the limb off and riding it down nothing will stop him from doing it. This is why it doesn't work in the Sierras any more.

[Pokey2006]

Well, you can debate whether it is right or wrong to kill the bear. In the meantime, I just hope no one gets seriously hurt by this bear. Hopefully no little children cross its path.

It's unfortunate this bear has become a problem bear. It might be taking down properly hung food, but chances are it first got its taste of human food through someone's irresponsibility. All the more reason for everyone to practice LNT and bear-bagging techniques. Or, in Wolf's case, bear-scaring techniques. Whatever works.

Incidentally, I encountered a bear there myself in 06. I think. It sure sounded like a bear, in the woods just a few feet from my campsite. I was maybe 2-3 miles north of Neels Gap. I banged my cooking pot a few times, and it ran off. Later, I heard it ended up harassing another group camped on top of the hill about a mile away.

[Bilge Rat]

Any suggestions if the bear decides to call your bluff? Assuming you are unarmed of course...



Tell the bear that you used to be in the service or were once a LEO, or know Karate. That oughta scare it off....................
:D

[Egads]

Any suggestions if the bear decides to call your bluff? Assuming you are unarmed of course...

Start barking like a dog...woof, woof

[kanga]

sleep with your food and have an attitude with any critter that tries to get it. all this bear baggin' and hangin' crap is for the birds

always have. never had a problem except once and that mouse didn't live very long after his attempt.

[kanga]

Kill it.

I wanna try bear. And I like doing something just because Max thinks it is a bad idea. If Max hats it, that is a sure endorsement of it.

Win/Win.

well, i guess you should be open minded and try everything once, but i'll tell you right now that bear meat is crap. greasy, nasty, stinky stuff. don't care how you cook it. some people love it tho.

[Lone Wolf]

Any suggestions if the bear decides to call your bluff? Assuming you are unarmed of course...


never assume. either way i ain't scared of no black bear :rolleyes: y'all oughta worry more about the hilton types that roam the trail

[Trail Bug]

Just read the advisory and seems like one of the big problems is how the hikers are hanging the bear bags. When the line is tied to another tree the bear has learned to break the line to get to the food. Hikers may want to try the PCT method where there is no tension line for the bear to snap. Here are a few links. http://www.floridatrailproject.com/FloridaTrailProject/Florida_Trail_Videos/Entries/2008/10/25_Hanging_A_Bear_Bag.html

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bear_bag_hanging_technique.html

[Tin Man]

once a bear develops a taste for ramen, he has to be put down before someone gets hurt

[Lone Wolf]

once a bear develops a taste for ramen, he has to be put down before someone gets hurt

same with a human that commits murder

[Tipi Walter]

Pathetic.

Bear in the woods!!! Lets kill it!!!

It is sort of pathetic, one species(us)dictating the rights of all other species. Our solution is usually eradication. Look at the passenger pigeon or the eastern mountain bison. Funny part is, we're also doing it indirectly by habitat destruction.


Yeah, right. I'm dumb and ignorant, just like all those masters prepared biologists at GA DNR who reestablished the black bear population in the north GA mountains (and established the hunting season for them). That population, by the way, is at or near carrying capacity for that ecosystem. Since a black bear has no natural predators, I suppose you would find starvation for them to be more "humane". All you uneducated syrupy Rubes oughta go find something constructive to do, or maybe enlighten yourself a bit.

So, take-a-knee, what's the carrying capacity for humans in our ecosystem? Haven't we gone wildly beyond it? I guess you consider 330,000,000 people against an estimated 600,000 black bears to be a fair number(projected 450 million humans by 2050). Why not 330 million black bears and 600,000 people? What gives human mammals the right to manipulate other mammals with harvesting quotas when those animals were here first and know the land better than we ever will? I find it hypocritical when the human animal cites scientific research and so-called biologists to justify culling, relocation, radio-collars(would you like to wear one?), and hunting harvest levels. Maybe we should do these things to ourselves first and see how we like it. I'd rather see a lowering human birthrate, more black bears, and less development and sprawl. Let's get biologists to limit human growth first, then they can talk about how much they think they know about bears.

When you say the Georgia DNR re-established the black bear population in the north Georgia mountains, I have to ask, what caused the need to do so anyway? Weren't the bears nearly decimated by hunters and poachers before state intervention? This history should tell us something about the motivation of hunters and the long-range consequences of their hunting w/o government regulation. But beyond this, with ever increasing human population, gov regulation is becoming more a tool of the policy of sprawl and less of increasing habitat for the bears. They're under wilderness house arrest, in other words. Tagged and surveilled. Last season we had a zealous hunter in my neck of the woods kill a 450 pound black bear up in a remote hollow. It was too big to get out so he took a small portion of meat and left the rest to rot. So sits the last great symbol of wilderness in Eastern North America.


Problem bears just dont go away!

I'm more concerned with problem people. Problem people with chainsaws and bulldozers.


a bear! omg!! KILL IT! intruder! intruder!

problem bears arise because people are idiots. pick your crap up. put your food up. you leave a pack with food in it lying around camp where the bear can get it, it's gonna get gone. common sense is like a superpower these days.

Not only are people idiots for what you mentioned, but idiots for the self-applauded lunacy called "humans are creatures ordained by a Deity to be chosen above all others", the core hubris behind our nature-destroying mandate.

[MoodyBluer]

never assume. either way i ain't scared of no black bear :rolleyes: y'all oughta worry more about the hilton types that roam the trail


Scared of 'em or not matters not, does it? Guess what I meant was...if'n you is unarmed (and I mean w/o hiking poles) and Yogi decides you are a chew toy, what good is noisiness going to do.

Do you really think that Tim Treadwell's (eaten in Alaska) last thoughts were "maybe if I just yell at him..."

In all seriousness, I've heard that you just fight like hell and go for their eyes.

[kanga]

it's a 250 lb. black bear, not a 1000 lb. grizzly. big difference, both in weight and temperment. and if you really want to wrassle with a bear, go for the nose.

[DAJA]

It is sort of pathetic, one species(us)dictating the rights of all other species. Our solution is usually eradication. Look at the passenger pigeon or the eastern mountain bison. Funny part is, we're also doing it indirectly by habitat destruction.



So, take-a-knee, what's the carrying capacity for humans in our ecosystem? Haven't we gone wildly beyond it? I guess you consider 330,000,000 people against an estimated 600,000 black bears to be a fair number(projected 450 million humans by 2050). Why not 330 million black bears and 600,000 people? What gives human mammals the right to manipulate other mammals with harvesting quotas when those animals were here first and know the land better than we ever will? I find it hypocritical when the human animal cites scientific research and so-called biologists to justify culling, relocation, radio-collars(would you like to wear one?), and hunting harvest levels. Maybe we should do these things to ourselves first and see how we like it. I'd rather see a lowering human birthrate, more black bears, and less development and sprawl. Let's get biologists to limit human growth first, then they can talk about how much they think they know about bears.

When you say the Georgia DNR re-established the black bear population in the north Georgia mountains, I have to ask, what caused the need to do so anyway? Weren't the bears nearly decimated by hunters and poachers before state intervention? This history should tell us something about the motivation of hunters and the long-range consequences of their hunting w/o government regulation. But beyond this, with ever increasing human population, gov regulation is becoming more a tool of the policy of sprawl and less of increasing habitat for the bears. They're under wilderness house arrest, in other words. Tagged and surveilled. Last season we had a zealous hunter in my neck of the woods kill a 450 pound black bear up in a remote hollow. It was too big to get out so he took a small portion of meat and left the rest to rot. So sits the last great symbol of wilderness in Eastern North America.



I'm more concerned with problem people. Problem people with chainsaws and bulldozers.



Not only are people idiots for what you mentioned, but idiots for the self-applauded lunacy called "humans are creatures ordained by a Deity to be chosen above all others", the core hubris behind our nature-destroying mandate.

Well said Tipi... In my local news paper there was a headline this morning that read, "Deer Posing Threat to Motorists on Highway"... It made me cringe when I read it.. I brought my boss in and asked if he found the headline funny... He looked at it and then at me, then back to the headline and said, what's wrong with that? I said, to be accurate should that article not read, "Motorists On Highway Posing Threat to Deer".. After all, when a collision occurs, it is an inconvenience to the driver but curtain death for the dear... He couldn't see my point...

It amazes me daily, that with all our science and information, that we continually walk around with the arogance that we somehow have the right or even responsability to manipulate and control our environment...

Humans truely are a discusting species..

[bigmac_in]

Treadwell was eaten by a GRIZZLY bear.

[Tin Man]

it's a 250 lb. black bear, not a 1000 lb. grizzly. big difference, both in weight and temperment. and if you really want to wrassle with a bear, go for the nose.

Maybe that's why I don't see any bears - thanks to beans and onions.

[Tin Man]

Well said Tipi... In my local news paper there was a headline this morning that read, "Deer Posing Threat to Motorists on Highway"... It made me cringe when I read it.. I brought my boss in and asked if he found the headline funny... He looked at it and then at me, then back to the headline and said, what's wrong with that? I said, to be accurate should that article not read, "Motorists On Highway Posing Threat to Deer".. After all, when a collision occurs, it is an inconvenience to the driver but curtain death for the dear... He couldn't see my point...

It amazes me daily, that with all our science and information, that we continually walk around with the arogance that we somehow have the right or even responsability to manipulate and control our environment...

Humans truely are a discusting species..

i have no issue if you want to drive into a tree to miss the deer or stand between me and a charging bear

[Lone Wolf]

Scared of 'em or not matters not, does it? Guess what I meant was...if'n you is unarmed (and I mean w/o hiking poles) and Yogi decides you are a chew toy, what good is noisiness going to do.

Do you really think that Tim Treadwell's (eaten in Alaska) last thoughts were "maybe if I just yell at him..."

In all seriousness, I've heard that you just fight like hell and go for their eyes.

black bears and grizz are not the same

[Lone Wolf]

Well said Tipi... In my local news paper there was a headline this morning that read, "Deer Posing Threat to Motorists on Highway"... It made me cringe when I read it.. I brought my boss in and asked if he found the headline funny... He looked at it and then at me, then back to the headline and said, what's wrong with that? I said, to be accurate should that article not read, "Motorists On Highway Posing Threat to Deer".. After all, when a collision occurs, it is an inconvenience to the driver but curtain death for the dear... He couldn't see my point...

It amazes me daily, that with all our science and information, that we continually walk around with the arogance that we somehow have the right or even responsability to manipulate and control our environment...

Humans truely are a discusting species..

oh brother :rolleyes:

[Gray Blazer]

It amazes me daily, that with all our science and information, that we continually walk around with the arogance that we somehow have the right or even responsability to manipulate and control our environment...

Humans truely are a discusting species..

Speak for yourself. I don't think of myself as disgusting. (hint: use spell check. You'll be less discusting and arogant and more disgusting and arrogant. For certain.)

[Tipi Walter]

Well said Tipi... In my local news paper there was a headline this morning that read, "Deer Posing Threat to Motorists on Highway"... It made me cringe when I read it.. I brought my boss in and asked if he found the headline funny... He looked at it and then at me, then back to the headline and said, what's wrong with that? I said, to be accurate should that article not read, "Motorists On Highway Posing Threat to Deer".. After all, when a collision occurs, it is an inconvenience to the driver but curtain death for the dear... He couldn't see my point...

It amazes me daily, that with all our science and information, that we continually walk around with the arogance that we somehow have the right or even responsability to manipulate and control our environment...

Humans truely are a discusting species..

This reminds of the roadkill figures in the Yellowstone National Park in a 15 year period between 1989-2003:
1,559 animals killed
556 elk
192 bison
135 coyotes
112 moose
24 antelope
3 bobcats

In 2003, Yellowstone had 6 bear roadkills, and a grizzly sow with 3 cubs.

http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=427

Quotes from the link: "Yellowstone regards road kill as an expected by-product of hiway construction. Moving cars thru Yellowstone takes precedence over wildlife. Cars kill as many buffalo in the park as does Montana's controversial bison hunt outside the park."

Here's some roadkill figures for the roads in and around Saguaro National Park:
1400 birds
6500 mammals
26,000 reptiles
17,000 amphibians

What's amazing to me are not so much the roadkill numbers, but why cars are even allowed in these places to begin with. I can see roadkill on the interstate, and don't we have enough gas-guzzling couch potatoes on our roads?, but inside National Parks? Who's in charge?

[DAJA]

(hint: use spell check. You'll be less discusting and arogant and more disgusting and arrogant. For certain.)


Well said and point taken... Spelling has long been my nemisis.

We are still an arrogant and disgusting species!

[take-a-knee]

Tipi, I'm all for reducing the population of humans in the US, starting with forced repatriation of all illegal aliens, followed by the forced emigration of tree-hugging hippies to the marxist paradise of their choice.

[UnkaJesse]

This thread is getting a lot more interesting.

http://www.mattcutts.com/images/duty_calls.png

[saimyoji]

Tipi, I'm all for reducing the population of humans in the US, starting with forced repatriation of all illegal aliens, followed by the forced emigration of tree-hugging hippies to the marxist paradise of their choice.

too much time and energy. just make 'em part of the wall.

[MoodyBluer]

black bears and grizz are not the same


Agreed, but my point (which I keep fumbling due to rambling) is...what can a puny unarmed human do against even a 250 lb blackie?

[take-a-knee]

Agreed, but my point (which I keep fumbling due to rambling) is...what can a puny unarmed human do against even a 250 lb blackie?

I agree, if you ever see a "cudly" 200# black bear with his skin removed he doesn't look too cuddly. What is left looks like one bad dude.

[john gault]

Agreed, but my point (which I keep fumbling due to rambling) is...what can a puny unarmed human do against even a 250 lb blackie?
Poke his eye out

[sheepdog]

It is sort of pathetic, one species(us)dictating the rights of all other species. Our solution is usually eradication.

.
Top of the food chain. Natures rule, not mine. Please pass the bear meat.

[sheepdog]

Agreed, but my point (which I keep fumbling due to rambling) is...what can a puny unarmed human do against even a 250 lb blackie?
fight. it beats just giving up and dieing. Sometimes it works and the bear goes away. It also gives you something to do while you're wrything in pain.

[kanga]

Tipi, I'm all for reducing the population of humans in the US, starting with forced repatriation of all illegal aliens, followed by the forced emigration of tree-hugging hippies to the marxist paradise of their choice.

don't forget forced sterilization. some people shouldn't breed.

[kanga]

Top of the food chain. Natures rule, not mine. Please pass the bear meat.

we should be able to counterbalance that with advanced deductive reasoning. just sayin'.

[Sidewinder]

fight. it beats just giving up and dieing. Sometimes it works and the bear goes away. It also gives you something to do while you're wrything in pain.

Yeah and if you win you will have braggin rights to no end!

[sheepdog]

we should be able to counterbalance that with advanced deductive reasoning. just sayin'.
wanna go steady

[kanga]

wanna go steady
if general ever loses his love goggles and figures out that i'm more of a pain in the ass than he thinks, i'll give you a holler.

[sheepdog]

if general ever loses his love goggles and figures out that i'm more of a pain in the ass than he thinks, i'll give you a holler.
:)

[Blissful]

never assume. either way i ain't scared of no black bear :rolleyes: y'all oughta worry more about the hilton types that roam the trail


Very true....

[take-a-knee]

Very true....

I though he meant Paris Hilton.

[Bulldawg]

Like Rock said, the only outcome is for a ranger or hunter to shoot the problem bear


You said it, not me.

You don't kill a bear because it inconviences your hiking experience. Learn to properly hang your food; or don't stay at areas where bears are known to be. To kill an animal in his habitat -- where we are the guest! -- because of this is ignorant.

Georgia has a bear hunting season which takes into account the factors you mentioned.

Although I bet you'd rather tie up a smelly food bag and sit back in your camp chair ready to bag a big un.


Problem bears just dont go away!

In Georgia, and correct me if I am wrong here Kanga (you have access to the exact info) problem bears are caught, tagged, and relocated twice, the third tag comes from a 40 cal to the head. Once a problem bear, 99.9% of the time, always a problem bear.


Scared of 'em or not matters not, does it? Guess what I meant was...if'n you is unarmed (and I mean w/o hiking poles) and Yogi decides you are a chew toy, what good is noisiness going to do.

Do you really think that Tim Treadwell's (eaten in Alaska) last thoughts were "maybe if I just yell at him..."

In all seriousness, I've heard that you just fight like hell and go for their eyes.

Agreed, but my point (which I keep fumbling due to rambling) is...what can a puny unarmed human do against even a 250 lb blackie?


Black bears 99.9% of the time are more scared of you, than you are of them.


Well said Tipi.........

Humans truely are a discusting species..


Well said and point taken... Spelling has long been my nemisis.

We are still an arrogant and disgusting species!

Perhaps you should reconsider your membership in the species??:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Dances with Mice]

Black bears 99.9% of the time are more scared of you, than you are of them.Having a bear hunting season in Georgia is nice. Keeps the furballs in line. They're pretty smart but they don't know when the season starts. Them that don't know there is one don't earn continuing education credits.

[kanga]

In Georgia, and correct me if I am wrong here Kanga (you have access to the exact info) problem bears are caught, tagged, and relocated twice, the third tag comes from a 40 cal to the head. Once a problem bear, 99.9% of the time, always a problem bear.
you be correct.

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi, I'm all for reducing the population of humans in the US, starting with forced repatriation of all illegal aliens, followed by the forced emigration of tree-hugging hippies to the marxist paradise of their choice.

The hippies only have to go to a Walmart to be in their marxist paradise of choice, since most of the products sold are from communist China.


we should be able to counterbalance that with advanced deductive reasoning. just sayin'.

When people wail, "It's Nature's rule, we're top of the food chain!", it gives them the opportunity to dispense with "advanced deductive reasoning". In other words, human choice. We applaud our apparent wisdom, and yet we disregard the long-term consequences of our actions.

[Bulldawg]

When people wail, "It's Nature's rule, we're top of the food chain!", it gives them the opportunity to dispense with "advanced deductive reasoning". In other words, human choice. We applaud our apparent wisdom, and yet we disregard the long-term consequences of our actions.


Right, I seem to recall thousands (maybe millions) of species becoming extinct before man even roamed the earth. Probably wasn't "Nature's Rule" then either was it?

[Tin Man]

Right, I seem to recall thousands (maybe millions) of species becoming extinct before man even roamed the earth. Probably wasn't "Nature's Rule" then either was it?

Yep and nature selected human for this period in time to make a mess of things. Everything you read suggest cockroaches and vermin will follow us in spite of anything we do. Smoke 'em if you got 'em!

[Skidsteer]

I though he meant Paris Hilton.

That's scary.

I'd as soon meet a grizzly.

[SGT Rock]

My ancestors worked hard to evolve to the point they could kill bears. If a bear hasn't evolved to the point he can recognize this we can select him for extinction.

[CowHead]

Once again I must say I love vegetables especially when the meat is gone
bear is great slow roasted
deer is great grill
Rabbit is great stew
and yes so are them carrots potatoes and squash

[john gault]

How does young bear cubs taste; are they as greasy as adult bears?

[Tin Man]

It's hard to argue the bear extinction theorem, except for the likely result - more sheeple on the trail

[Blissful]

My ancestors worked hard to evolve to the point they could kill bears. If a bear hasn't evolved to the point he can recognize this we can select him for extinction.


Actually they were killing the sheep and each other before the bear it seems... Genesis 4: 4, 8

:o

[Bama Jack & Sadie]

My 4 legged hiking buddy (Sadie) wants to know "Do dogs taste like chicken? and if so, do bears know that???"

[sheepdog]

Bears are a cool animal and I love seeing them.There are more bears now in Michigan than ever. Hardly going extinct. They are a renewable resource.

I forgot how some people get all emotional when talking about bears. Soon we will be inundated with poor bear threads.

[Blissful]

Soon we will be inundated with poor bear threads.

...Or bear pictures.

Who's the one who posted the pic of the bear sitting at the picnic table? That was a hoot.

[Skidsteer]

...Or bear pictures.

Who's the one who posted the pic of the bear sitting at the picnic table? That was a hoot.

That one is a classic. I can't remember who posted it but I saved it to hard drive.

[Egads]

That one is a classic. I can't remember who posted it but I saved it to hard drive.

Post 37 http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5652&highlight=dinner

[Skidsteer]

Post 37 http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5652&highlight=dinner

Ah. Good one Egads.

[Gray Blazer]

I use it as my desktop background.

[Engine]

Late last September I ran from Neels to Hogpen and back between 7 and 10 am. On the way back I heard a loud scratching noise and looked up to see a bear the size of a Gatlinburg trash bear sliding down a tree about 15 feet away. He was as shocked as I was and I counted it a blessing to see him...but if he ate my backpack I wouldn't have thought so!

[sheepdog]

Saw a young bear sitting by the privy while hiking the SNP. Looked like he was waiting his turn. Wasn't able to get a picture but it would have answered the question. Does a bear **** in the woods.

[CowHead]

How does young bear cubs taste; are they as greasy as adult bears?

http://www.bowhunts.com/guide/maple.jpg Cooking with Bear Meat

Bear Stew
- 3 sl bacon, cut up
- 4 md onions, quartered
- 4 md potatoes, quartered
- 1 pk fresh or frozen green beans
- 3 bay leaves
- 2 lb bear, cubed (or venison, elk etc )
- 4 carrots, sliced
- 1 pk fresh or frozen peas
- 1 (46 oz.) can tomato juice
Brown bacon in heavy kettle. Add bear and brown on all sides. Add onions and saute. Add all remaining ingredients and simmer 1 hour or until flavors are mixed and vegetables and meat are tender. Remove bay leaves.

Bear Meatloaf
- 2 lb ground meat
- 3/4 cup of water
- 1/2 cup of milk
- 2 eggs
- salt and pepper to taste
- 1/4 tsp. thyme
- 1/4 tsp. oregano
- 3/4 cup tomato sauce
- 1 cup onion, minced
- 1 1/2 tsp. dry mustard
- 1 cup bread crumbs
- 1/2 green pepper, finely chopped
r - 1 small can of mushrooms or fresh mushrooms
Bake at 350 until done (about an hour). When it looks close to being done, maybe 15 minutes, Spread either BBQ sauce or ketchup over the top

Bear Roast
- 4 lb Bear meat
- Pepper to taste
- Celery salt to taste
- 2 Garlic cloves
- 8 oz (piece) Salt pork
Boil the bear meat in 2 qts of water and 1 tb soda to eliminate the wild taste. Season the bear meat with the celery salt and pepper and place in a stock pot, adding the garlic, salt pork, and enough water to cover; Cook `til meat is tender, then drain reserving the pan juices. Place the meat in a roasting pan and top with the onions, roast at 350 degrees F. until brown, basting with the reserved juices. Thicken the remaining juices for gravy and serve over potatoes served with the bear roast.

Bear Chops
- 3/4 inch bear chops
- Salt and pepper
- Paprika
- Garlic
- Onion powder
- 1 cn mushroom soup
- 1 cn mushrooms
Trim fat from chop
s. Roll in flour seasoned with salt, pepper, paprika, garlic, and onion powder to taste. Brown in hot shortening and place in oven pan. Cover with a can of mushroom soup, a can of water and, if desired a can of mushrooms with liquid. Place in oven at 350 degrees for 1 1/2 hours. If desired, top with canned onion rings during last 20 minutes of baking

Barbecued Bear
- 3 lb bear steak cut in 2" cubes
- 1 sl salt pork, cut up
- 1 c catsup
- 1/3 c steak sauce
- 2 tb tarragon vinegar
- 1 onion, diced
- 1 tb lemon juice
- 1 ts salt
- 1 tb chili powder
Trim all fat from bear steak and cut into 2 inch cubes. Sear meat on all sides with salt pork in a heavy fry pan. Place meat in casserole. Add rest of ingredients to fry pan and bring to a boil, stirring constantly. Pour sauce over meat in casserole. Cover and bake for at least 2 hours in a 325 degree F. oven, stirring occasionally until meat is tender.

Bear Sausage
- 20 lbs. ground bear meat
- 10 lbs. ground beaf meat
- 6 tsp. red pepper
- 12 lbs. ground pork butt
- 15 tsp. garlic salt
- 3 lbs. slab bacon, ground
- 7 1/2 tsp. pepper
Mix all together. Fry in pan for breakfast sausage, good on pizza, and makes great meatballs as well.

Roasted Loin with Potatoes and Carrots
- Bear loin
- 1 head cabbage
- 10-12 lg. potatoes
- 10-12 carrots
- Lawry's seasoned salt
- 1 pkg. bacon
- Fresh ground black pepper
Soak loin in cold water overnight as to remove as much blood as possible. Season loin with seasoned salt and black pepper. Wrap slices of bacon around loin until covered and sprinkle with black pepper. Cut cabbage into quarters. Place bacon wrapped loin in roaster pan and cover with cabbage wedges and add about 1 cup of water. Bake covered at 375 for about 4 hrs or until cabbage starts to cook down. Remove cabbage and discard. Add carrots and potatoes cover and cook for another 1-2 hours until vegetables are done. Uncover for last 30 minutes of cooking time. You may need to add a little water from time to time during cooking time.

Black Bear Marinade
- 1 cup dry red wine
- 1/2 cup olive oil
- 1 onion chopped
- 6 cloves garlic crushed
- 1 sliced carrot
- 1/2 tbs of dried tarragon
- Salt and pepper adjust to your own taste
Place meat in roaster, roast or steaks, in marinade and cover and refrigerate overnight turning often prior bedtime. Remove from marinade approx., 2 hrs. prior cooking to allow meat to come to room temp. Strain marinade and reserve liquid for gravy. Pre-Heat oven to 350 Deg. turning the roast and or steaks halfway through cooking time, about 3 hours. for 4 1/2 lb. roast. GRAVY; with broth in pan bring to medium boil on stove top and add marinade liquid, to thicken I use 1/2 cup flour mixed with 1 1/2 cups of water seasoned with celery salt, shake or stir well and gradually pour into pan keeping stirring constant. Carve roast (boneless) into 1/4 inch slices and place on platter pouring gravy over meat, will serve 8

[Dances with Mice]

Saw a young bear sitting by the privy while hiking the SNP. And his hair was perfect.

[prain4u]

I was raised as an amateur hunter, fisherman and logger in Northern Wisconsin. Contrary to what some on this list might argue, hunting/fishing/logging are not activities that are necessarily contrary to sound animal conservation efforts or contrary to intense environmental awareness (and preservation). Most of the hunters, fishers and loggers that I know are actually very devoted conservationalists and environmentalists.

Over the years, my hunting and fishing license fees (and my voluntary donations to groups like Pheasants Forever, Ducks Unlimited, Whitetails Unlimited etc.) have contributed a significant amount of money to animal conservation, habitat restoration and animal repopulation efforts. I have personally assisted in physically restoring animal habitat areas. I have also PLANTED far more trees than I have ever cut.

THE SAME LEVEL OF CONTRIBUTION TO CONSERVATION EFFORTS CANNOT BE SAID FOR MANY OF THE SELF-PROCLAIMED ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS AND FOLKS WHO WISH TO PROMOTE A "GREEN" LIFESTYLE!

The FACT is, many animal populations and many forest areas are stronger and healthier when CONTROLLED logging, hunting, and fishing efforts occur. Leaving animal and forest populations totally "undisturbed" by humans often causes MORE harm to animal and plant species than logging, hunting, and fishing could ever do.

If fallen trees and thick underbrush are not thinned and removed--the area becomes more prone to forest fires. Those fires destroy MANY thousands of acres of forest land and kill hundreds of animals. (Strategic logging of SOME trees is far better than losing thousands of acres of forest to fires!). If animal populations become too large, animals starve and become sick (often infecting and threatening the rest of the popluation). Shooting SOME animals is far more humane than letting them die in large numbers due to starvation and illness.

Many areas in the Appalacian Mountains are becoming overpopulated with bears (in terms of the number of bears per square mile of proper habitat). Thus, the bear population needs to be thinned for the overall good of the species in those regions. Killing the current "overly friendly" bear in question is not going to destroy the AT eco-system. In fact, it might even benefit the eco-system. (I would also not be opposed to trapping the bear and relocating it to a very remote area).

(It seems that some people on this list are far more concerned that an aggresive bear might get killed than an innocent hiker or camper might get mauled by that bear! I'll never understand such "logic". Save a hiker--kill or relocate the bear!)

I would agree that humans who are irresponsible with their food and trash contribute to the bear problems--and they ought to be banned from the woods and trails. They are a potential "danger" to themselves, other humans, and to the bears.

FINAL NOTE: I have actually eaten bear sausage--and it was very delicious. (P.E.T.A.--for me that stands for People Eating Tasty Animals!)

[sloopjonboswell]

like lone wolf said, sleep with your food bag,.. yo yo, cut a bear tryin da git yo herb seasoned tuna pack.

did i miss that it was an april fools joke?

[halibut15]

Whoa. This turned into a philosophical meeting of the minds quickly....

[stumpy]

Saw a young bear sitting by the privy while hiking the SNP. Looked like he was waiting his turn. Wasn't able to get a picture but it would have answered the question. Does a bear **** in the woods.


So I guess the correct answer is: "only when there is not a privey close by!";)

[mlkelley]

And his hair was perfect.

Nice!

[homer_at]

One option might be to hang up some sacrificial food bags filled with rice cakes. I suspect the bear would move on after that.

homer_at

[vamelungeon]

I think that would encourage more bad behavior.

I think they should issue hikers some M-80's or cherry bombs from the fireworks places and scare the bejesus out of the bear. Every hiker lobs fireworks at bears (and raccoons) that get too close to campsites. Get them away from "humans=food" to "humans=earsplitting bang" and a lot of this dangerous behavior will stop.

[Egads]

One option might be to hang up some sacrificial food bags filled with rice cakes. I suspect the bear would move on after that.

homer_at


I think that would encourage more bad behavior.

I think they should issue hikers some M-80's or cherry bombs from the fireworks places and scare the bejesus out of the bear. Every hiker lobs fireworks at bears (and raccoons) that get too close to campsites. Get them away from "humans=food" to "humans=earsplitting bang" and a lot of this dangerous behavior will stop.

Spice it up with habanero peppers

[vamelungeon]

Hot pepper on some sacrificial food might work. Anything to make the bear want to avoid humans and human stuff.

[rickb]

I think that would encourage more bad behavior.

I think they should issue hikers some M-80's or cherry bombs from the fireworks places and scare the bejesus out of the bear. Every hiker lobs fireworks at bears (and raccoons) that get too close to campsites. Get them away from "humans=food" to "humans=earsplitting bang" and a lot of this dangerous behavior will stop.

I saw a ranger take that approach in a car camping area in the Delaware Water Gap years ago. He had something that shot his fireworks at the animal sing-shot style.

So the mama bear is up in a tree next to our campsite and he fires up at it. Gravity being what it is, the cherry bomb dropped back toward earth an exploded next to the ranger's head.

He was startled by this, and drew his revolver quicker than Wyatt Earp ready to do battle.

At that point, I became a bit concerned about my safety. I wasn't worried about the bear, of course.

[vamelungeon]

I saw a ranger take that approach in a car camping area in the Delaware Water Gap years ago. He had something that shot his fireworks at the animal sing-shot style.

So the mama bear is up in a tree next to our campsite and he fires up at it. Gravity being what it is, the cherry bomb dropped back toward earth an exploded next to the ranger's head.

He was startled by this, and drew his revolver quicker than Wyatt Earp ready to do battle.

At that point, I became a bit concerned about my safety. I wasn't worried about the bear, of course.

ROFLMAO!!! Picturing that gave me good laugh! Thanks! :D

[rickb]

For most thru hikers, bear sightings are one of the highlights of the trip.

Those who would take out an AT bear might be appreciated by Ma and Pa Kettle out for a stroll in the park, but not by me.

Seems like a good stretch of trail to walk slowly with your camera around your neck.

[vonfrick]

This reminds of the roadkill figures in the Yellowstone National Park in a 15 year period between 1989-2003:
1,559 animals killed
556 elk
192 bison
135 coyotes
112 moose
24 antelope
3 bobcats

In 2003, Yellowstone had 6 bear roadkills, and a grizzly sow with 3 cubs.

http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=427

Quotes from the link: "Yellowstone regards road kill as an expected by-product of hiway construction. Moving cars thru Yellowstone takes precedence over wildlife. Cars kill as many buffalo in the park as does Montana's controversial bison hunt outside the park."

Here's some roadkill figures for the roads in and around Saguaro National Park:
1400 birds
6500 mammals
26,000 reptiles
17,000 amphibians

What's amazing to me are not so much the roadkill numbers, but why cars are even allowed in these places to begin with. I can see roadkill on the interstate, and don't we have enough gas-guzzling couch potatoes on our roads?, but inside National Parks? Who's in charge?

i ran over a tarantula :eek: while driving around Grand Canyon. it was huge but by the time i had that glimmer of recognition it was too late to swerve out of the way. actually pulled over and walked back to check it out. kids thought it was neato.

[Sidewinder]

i ran over a tarantula :eek: while driving around Grand Canyon. it was huge but by the time i had that glimmer of recognition it was too late to swerve out of the way. actually pulled over and walked back to check it out. kids thought it was neato.

cool

[Lemni Skate]

I just got back from hiking southern Georgia section and the "closed to camping" section was quite the talk. I just had to laugh. I get excited every time I see a bear on the trail (I've seen six in just over 200 miles of AT hiking). None have ever been aggressive towards me (they usually run away). I figure if I go backpacking and I do it right I'm going to see wildlife. It's a shame when an animal gets used to human food for so many reasons. I just wish somebody would do something about the uncontrolled puppy that ran into the shelter about five minutes ahead of his "master" and jumped all over everyone and tried to eat my son's chicken and rice.

P.S. I sleep with my food (in sealed plastic bags) in the bear capital of the trail...SNP...and have never had a bear mess with me, my tent, or my food at night.

[Incahiker]

Well if you believe in this book called the bible, according to it

"God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Well, not really a big believer myself, but for anyone who is this should pretty much set you straight.

Anyhow, did anyone remember going to redtop mountain when the had bukus of deer, I mean it was so bad that you had to weave in between them on the road just to get to where you were going. If you remeber this period of time you will also remember seeing how unhealthy they were, clumps of hair falling out all over the place, their bones were sticking out since they were pretty much staving themselves to death due to a huge overpopulation. Well guess what, they had a special deer hunt there to get the population back under control, and whamo, healthy deer again. It really does work people.

By the way, I think the whole firecracker thing is a great idea, scare the living bejeesus out of bears that get to close so that every time they see us they will not think food, but lightning and explosions and run from us. Its better then a problem bear any day.

[reddenbacher]

they make a great top quilt.

[Samatva]

Call me an idiot, but after deciding on a 1-night "equipment-check-out-warm-up-loop", I set out with no maps on Friday. So when I saw the notice of no camping between Neels Gap and Tesnatee Gap, I drew a blank on where Tesnatee Gap is....

I hated to take a "to hell with the warning" attitude, but without a delay getting on the the trail find a map, I went ahead. Other hikers near Bird Gap/Woods Hole were talking about "the bear", but I hung my food and didn't worry about it. My dog had a few "anxiety moments" during the night, but that could have been the noisy scout troop within earshot (I'll save that rant for some other post - I was already bedded down for the night at Flatrock Gap when they came in).

[Desert Reprobate]

A young lady from the Yosemite Park Service gave a very good presentation at the ADZPCTKO. I was wondering why they were making the hikers go with the canisters when the hanging worked for so many years. She explained the bears are learning how to get the hanging food bags. What she said made a lot of sense. It is more for the protection of the bears than for protection of our food. Bears learn very quickly how to "Yogi" a meal and they end up being destroyed. I don't plan to carry a canister on the AT but it does look like at least one bear has figured out how to get the hanging food bags.

[Rain Man]

Word this morning is that camping between Neel Gap and Tesnatee Gap is still prohibited due to bear activity.

The original camping ban was for the month of April, but it has been extended.

Rain:sunMan

.

[Mocs123]

I went through that section last weekend (Deep Gap to Neels Gap) and there were reports from hikers that they were having bears come into camp south of Neels Gap as well. I camped at McClure Gap (just south of Dicks Creek Gap) and at Low Gap shelter and didn't have any problems. Also surprisingly, I didn't see any signs of bear at all, no scat or anything.

[john gault]

I went through that section last weekend (Deep Gap to Neels Gap) and there were reports from hikers that they were having bears come into camp south of Neels Gap as well. I camped at McClure Gap (just south of Dicks Creek Gap) and at Low Gap shelter and didn't have any problems. Also surprisingly, I didn't see any signs of bear at all, no scat or anything.
I don't believe in bears either, they're just misidentified bigfoots.:p

[Lone Wolf]

i camped there last week and slept with my chow. what's the big deal?

[kanga]

i camped there last week and slept with my chow. what's the big deal?
i think they're saying you have to hang your food to see the bear.

[Lilred]

i camped there last week and slept with my chow. what's the big deal?

This bear is looking for bags hanging from trees. Sleeping with it isn't what they're looking for so you're probably safer with it in the tent.

[Cool AT Breeze]

The bears are still there. Now that their natural foods are available they seem to be leaving the hikers alone. I have camped in that area twice in the last week. The bears are around but not comming into camp.

[Analogman]

Like Rock said, the only outcome is for a ranger or hunter to shoot the problem bear

It's an usual outcome when bears become a threat to humans. Unfortunately, one cannot reason with a bear.

[leeki pole]

So after I spotted a cub in a tree while walking the dogs, I called the State Game Commission. We don't have any bears here (until now), so he told me (yes, gave me permission) to put out bait (honey buns) and rig a game camera to get pictures. I never did get a game cam photo, but got good photos of bear tracks. Neighbors thought I was nuts until their garbage cans were overturned and trash all over the yard. Must be those raccoons, huh. I wish I would have had my camera when I saw him in the tree, that some beach like to have scared the living you know what out of me and my dogs went absolutely nuts trying to get to him. If there's bears here, way out of their natural range, there's no problem with the population, period.

[Rain Man]

Camping was reopened yesterday, 5/11/09, from Neel Gap to Tesnatee Gap.

From the GATC.

Rain:sunMan

.