Shuttle Service - Bad Service?

[volleypc]

I will not use the name of the company per TOS but I am pretty upset about this and would like to know if any of you agree with what they did.

I went into Gatlinburg in March and needed a ride out to Newfound Gap. I called this particular shuttle service from the outfitter in GB and was told it would be at least 45 minutes, the cost would be $36 and he would need my CC#. I gave him the info and when I got off the phone a guy that overheard my conversation said he and his son were on the way up there and he would gladly give me a ride. I immediately called the shuttle service back and got the answering machine. I left a message saying that someone has offered a ride and that if he still needed to charge something that was fine, but I did not expect to be charged the full amount. The guy was shopping for a few supplies so five minutes later I tried to call again and again I got the answering machine. I checked my bank statement today while I am in town and I see he charged me $36.

I asked the outfitter and they said he has a few people that work for him and they are sure he would not charge me the full amount, but unfortunately he did.

I am trying to keep this all in perspective because I have met some incredible people on this trip both on the trail and in town. I guess it was only a matter of time before I met someone that was trying to take advantage of hikers.

[Pokey2006]

You shouldn't ever have to pay in full before getting the actual ride. Never give out your credit card number! If they need it to reserve a shuttle, find another shuttle provider or stick out your thumb.

You should be able to dispute the charge through the credit card company. After all, you didn't really authorize the charge. But first, try calling the shuttle provider to see if he'll willingly refund your money.

[hootyhoo]

Did he leave and drive up there? If you told him to come get you and then took off with someone else and he still spent his time and gas and maybe even spent some time looking around for you...
Can you give more specifics?

[Skyline]

You shouldn't ever have to pay in full before getting the actual ride. Never give out your credit card number! If they need it to reserve a shuttle, find another shuttle provider or stick out your thumb.

You should be able to dispute the charge through the credit card company. After all, you didn't really authorize the charge. But first, try calling the shuttle provider to see if he'll willingly refund your money.


Sounds as if he did authorize the charge, but then changed his mind. Only his change of mind may not have been conveyed successfully to the shuttle service before the driver was dispatched. Leaving a message on an answering machine is not as good as speaking to a human, and one should never assume that a recorded message will get listened to in a timely manner.

It would probably be relevant to learn the shuttle service's cancellation policy. Is it available via a website or somewhere else in writing?

Motels and campgrounds routinely take credit card numbers in advance when a reservation is made. Some process the charge immediately, while others merely put a hold on the card for the amount of the room or campsite. Either way, it is protection against no-shows. If a no-show occurs, the business can still get paid.

Was volleypc a no-show in this instance? He might have been, since we don't know, and it sounds like he doesn't know, that his change of mind actually reached the shuttle service in a manner and within time to avoid having the driver make the trip to pick him up.

Depending upon where the driver was coming from to pick him up in G-burg, I would think that in the interest of maintaining goodwill that the shuttle service might offer volleypc some kind of partial credit (financial credit to the card, or a discount on future service, or something else more creative). But it may be the case that they are under no legal obligation to do so.

I'm not a lawyer even tho it may seem like I'm playing one. Any real lawyers out there care to add to this?

[Kirby]

It sounds like he was arranging a ride in to leave Gatlinburg with a business based in Gatlinburg.

Quite unfortunate.

[Ox97GaMe]

The flip side of this is that if the shuttle driver left right after you called, and drove to the outfitter before getting the news that you were no longer there, then they are within their right to charge the full price.

For future reference, in most trail towns, you wont really need to have a shuttle to get back to the common trailhead locations. If you come into town from a secondary trailhead (like Indian Grave Gap into Erwin) then a shuttle may be needed. Most places are easy to hitch to/from the trail.

Shuttle services are generally needed if you are going somewhere away from the trail. Example: There is no outfitter in Erwin or Hampton, so you need a shuttle to take you to the outfitter in Johnson City, about 20 miles away.

However, if you make arrangements for a shuttle service (other than at a hostel you might be staying at) then plan to actually utilize the service if you are unable to talk to them directly about cancellations.

[Pokey2006]

Just handing over a CC# doesn't necessarily mean you've authorized a charge. I would think you'd have to sign for it at some point. You'd have to ask your credit card company about that one.

Shouldn't the shuttle driver have a way to be reached? Like a cell phone? If an attempt is made to reach the driver, and the driver doesn't get the message, should the hiker really be held responsible for that? I can see some kind of reasonable charge for reserving the service, but full price when the ride wasn't given? Naw.

[Jester2000]

Just handing over a CC# doesn't necessarily mean you've authorized a charge. I would think you'd have to sign for it at some point.

Giving a business your CC#, the expiration date, and the security code over the phone is an authorization to use that card. Obviously, you can't sign for something over the phone. If this were disputable on that basis, every person who's ever bought anything over the phone or online could dispute the charge.

What I'm confused by is this passage:

"I asked the outfitter and they said he has a few people that work for him and they are sure he would not charge me the full amount, but unfortunately he did."

I'm not sure who "they" and "he" are. Did the hiker actually talk to the business owner, or just to employees? Did he actually explain the situation to someone in a position to run a refund (the owner) and that person refused? Pretty unclear. I suspect this is a case not of an outfitter taking advantage of a hiker, but crossed wires and bad (or no) communication between an owner and a hiker.

[Pokey2006]

I'm just thinking of something that happened to me recently. I handed over my card, signed for a $10 charge, only to find later that a second $29 charge had been added to the card. I didn't authorize the $29 charge, so it was refunded to me. Just because I gave them my card didn't mean they could charge whatever they wanted.

I agree this person needs to speak with the shuttle service and find out what happened and what can be done to make amends. Sometimes a simple phone call can clear these disputes right up.

[TD55]

Not bad service, rather regular. Once the driver committed to come pick you up he became obligated to refuse other potential jobs during that time frame if the other jobs might conflict with the route. You would have had to actually reach the service and cancel before the driver was dispatched. Otherwise, your cancelaltion ends up costing the service and driver because you changed your mind. More important, you said that you gave permission via voice message for them to charge you something, but, "...did not expect to be charged the full amount." How much did you expect to be charged? Sounds like you kind of left it up to them and they followed industry SOP.

[Lone Wolf]

you got taken. never give your cc number over the phone.

[Jester2000]

Yeah, it sort of depends on what happened from the Outfitter's side of things, and that's where some good communication and a positive attitude might help.

This appears to be a case where a hiker was getting a ride from town (where the outfitter is located) to the trail. So it's probably not a case of the Outfitter charging anyway based on miles driven and time wasted (as would be the case if the ride was from the trail to town), but it might be the case that other business was refused as a result of the call.

If someone called my shop looking for a ride and I drove an hour to them and they weren't there, I would charge them. If I turned down other business as a result of the call, I would also definitely charge them. But if neither of those were the case and a hiker called and explained to me what happened, and asked nicely if I could do something about the charge, I would refund them.

[Jester2000]

Of course, it's also possible that they ARE jerks.

[McKeever]

I can give you some insight as a business owner and holder of a business merchant credit card services processing account. I process over a 1000 transactions a year in my small consulting business.

Most merchant services accounts require a signature slip provided by the merchant from the customer to fight a charge back from the customers credit card company. Other account types will allow telephone transactions without a signature slip. Most merchants do not have telephone acceptance approval and just hope the customer does not file a charge back if they manually enter the numbers without the presence of a card and signature slip.

If your shuttle provider has a telephone authorized merchants account then you will not be able to get out of paying for booking their resources, unless they offer to refund. Most services providers make good money so when they have an occasional case like this they are willing to take a small loss to keep a good reputation, myself included. It's just the occasional cost of doing business. The smaller the business, the less likely they are to accept a loss because of the customers fault, and this is problem that you contributed to so don't make such a big deal out of it. If you file a charge back without first being civil with the merchant and they are authorized to accept cards over the phone you will prob loose your money and any chance of them offering a shuttle to you and leave them a negative hiker-business experience. If they are not authorized to accept cards over the phone and cannot produce a signature slip, then you will get your money back but the bad hiker experience may remain. This is a case that requires patience and make sure you talk to them before you file a charge back. If they are jerks after you talk to them and did received your messages but charged you anyway, then you need to warn about them. If they did not get your message in time you ethically owe the money.

[dperry]

I will not use the name of the company per TOS

Correct me if I'm wrong, but by my reading the TOS do not forbid referring to a company by name. They do forbid explicit advertisements by the companies themselves (which obviously includes spam), but if you're reviewing a company's service or products, whether positively or negatively, it obviously is helpful to the reader if they know which company is actually being referred to. The entire gear forum, for instance, would pretty much collapse if you couldn't mention company names.

Now, in this case, since it's unclear who exactly is at fault here, it might be a good idea not to mention the company's name, so as not to risk creating an incorrect impression. But under most circumstances, it seems OK to me.

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[Tennessee Viking]

you got taken. never give your cc number over the phone.Does the Lonewolf taxi service take CC's yet...lol

[Tennessee Viking]

There will be some shuttlers that will do an initial charge for the shuttle reservation or no-show fee but won't charge the full amount. Then we get picked up and shuttled to your destination, then after that, they will charge you the full amount.

[Blissful]

Without knowing the company and if they are legit, I would always pay by cash and not give out a cc #. I called for a shuttle in NH and paid cash only.

[UHFox]

I sympathize with your situation, but I would not say that they gave you 'bad service'. They may have come to pick you up exactly when they said they would. I would say you probably owe them something. Be sure to get their side of the story.

[Wise Old Owl]

Sorry Volley PC You changed your mind after the fact, thinking you would save money and some poor sob drove quite a ways to pick you up and you were not there, what you & others forget it's not about the gas, it's about time (Hours) and nobody is ever going to get rich offering these services to hikers. Your "transaction" was an acceptance of service. You changed your mind and did not stay for the "services rendered." Had it been a Limo maybe you would be more understanding. And LW - this again is one of the few times I am going to call you out and say "You are wrong!" on the above post. $36? - Simply get over it. Even if I was offering the above service - my time is of more value to me to go out and "taxi" for that. If I am not earning $50-$75 per hour - my wife would cut me off at the easter basket. No Joke Here. I empathize, but this thread is off base.

[bishopj]

I think it kind of odd that shuttle service or the folks that drive for them would not have a cell phone or some way to call in to check out to see if all the pick up are still where they gone.

[sliderule]

you got taken. never give your cc number over the phone.

What we have here is a completely flawed analysis of the situation.

All elements of a contract were present: offer, acceptance and consideration. From the facts presented, the customer has no legal basis whatsoever for demanding a refund. Furthermore,the customer has no information whatsoever as to what damages the merchant might have suffered in his attempt to deliver the contracted service. It is conceivable that the merchant could have exhausted more resources while attempting to provide the agreed service than would have been required had the shuttle been conducted as originally requested.

[Skyline]

I think it kind of odd that shuttle service or the folks that drive for them would not have a cell phone or some way to call in to check out to see if all the pick up are still where they gone.


The shuttle service and its drivers most likely do use cell phones. Problem is, once you get into the mountains coverage is shaky at best. That "answering machine" could have very well been a cell phone's voicemail. The owner of that phone (who may or may not have been the actual driver dispatched to meet volleypc) may not have had a signal until he or she got out of the mountains, and therefore may not have heard the voicemail until hours later. Again, not a good idea for the caller to assume answering machines or voicemail will work well for timely, important messages.

The home base of a shuttle service has the same issues trying to reach a driver who is out of a cell phone's reception area--and that's not always only in the mountains themselves. It can be in the foothills and hollows nearer the valley. Sounds like a description of the area not far from Gatlinburg.

Bottom line: If you make a reservation for a shuttle, you should do your very best to keep your end of the deal. Most shuttlers do.

[Lone Wolf]

What we have here is a completely flawed analysis of the situation.

All elements of a contract were present: offer, acceptance and consideration. From the facts presented, the customer has no legal basis whatsoever for demanding a refund. Furthermore,the customer has no information whatsoever as to what damages the merchant might have suffered in his attempt to deliver the contracted service. It is conceivable that the merchant could have exhausted more resources while attempting to provide the agreed service than would have been required had the shuttle been conducted as originally requested.

i wouldn't give my cc number over the phone cuz i ain't got one. so does this shuttler take cardholders only?

[Wise Old Owl]

i wouldn't give my cc number over the phone cuz i ain't got one. so does this shuttler take cardholders only?

Unlikely LW - Everyone who runs a business will accept cash, that what makes American Business what it is today. What is the exception is folk that "Think" they can run without CC services. The costs of CC service can be a make or break part of the service.

Even today I have discovered the Italian mafia is involved in a modern loan shark version of credit card business, that is a seperate PM or discussion.

[Tennessee Viking]

Plus a good shuttler would have a cell phone for last minute cancellations.

[Wise Old Owl]

TV that would make little difference.

[Ron Haven]

I have driven to Amacalola from Franklin to find some jerk off rode with their buddy for $5 less than a shuttlers rate.I have drove to rock gap dozens of times this year to find they hitched a ride with someone to other motels in which they would be trying to beg me to come for them free and return them to the the trail for stupidity reasons.:rolleyes:

Well,hikers are hikers and shuttlers are shuttlers.:rolleyes:In my opinion it won't ever change.For the hikers I have connected with,you were worth all the effort and the other D A's can go straight X 2 H R K H S RI HR well,you get the picture :D

[Tennessee Viking]

I have driven to Amacalola from Franklin to find some jerk off rode with their buddy for $5 less than a shuttlers rate.I have drove to rock gap dozens of times this year to find they hitched a ride with someone to other motels in which they would be trying to beg me to come for them free and return them to the the trail for stupidity reasons.:rolleyes:

Well,hikers are hikers and shuttlers are shuttlers.:rolleyes:In my opinion it won't ever change.For the hikers I have connected with,you were worth all the effort and the other D A's can go straight X 2 H R K H S RI HR well,you get the picture :DWhen you have trail heroes like Ron and Miss Janet, why would you want to hitch into town with anyone else.

[Skyline]

. . . It is conceivable that the merchant could have exhausted more resources while attempting to provide the agreed service than would have been required had the shuttle been conducted as originally requested.


So right. The driver likely waited for a decent amount of time for volleypc, to no avail. He or she might have spent a lot of effort trying to find volleypc in the vicinity of the shuttle meet-point, thinking perhaps the hiker or someone at the shuttle service got their wires crossed about the exact meet-point. The shuttle service may have turned away other business because this driver was tied up on a wild goose chase for volleypc.

Any (and all) of the above scenarios happen in real life. They do constitute more time and effort than simply doing the shuttle would have. Add in the potential loss of other business and you can understand why the credit card got charged.

A nice gesture on the part of the shuttler would be to issue some sort of credit toward future service or some other creative solution, but I'm thinking the issue of no-shows is an chronic problem and perhaps they're just taking a hard line.

[The Old Fhart]

I can see nothing that the shuttler did wrong. Volleypc breached the contract and has to suffer the consequences for his actions. Buyer's remorse isn't a reason to stiff someone who was willing, and in the process of, fulfilling their end of the transaction. If Volleypc could have actually reached the shuttler before hand and come to a new agreement that would be different, but that didn't happen.

It doesn't sound like "someone that was trying to take advantage of hikers," and the shuttler could say it was a hiker trying to take advantage of him. Consider this a mistake you made and learn from it.

[Freeleo]

try and dispute the charge with the credit card company.

[kyhipo]

what i think it sucks.:dance

[Frick Frack]

I have not read this post entirely....Has volleypc even tried to contact the shuttle service? Sounds like they could settle somewhere in between? I would give the shuttle a chance before I started bad-mouthing them.

With 1-billion visitors to GSMNP I do not understand why anyone would need a "shuttle" to & from the trail in the park....the easiest 2 hitches of our hike....all for cold beers at the Smoky Mountain Brewery!

[River Runner]

Shuttle services don't make all that much, at least not the one's I've seen. If arrangements were made and the shuttle company then couldn't be reached it's just one of those unfortunate things. Undoubtedly the shuttle company made the trip, looked for the customer, and should deserve to be paid.

[Reid]

Unfortunate situation for both of you. I'm sure they would be willing to work with you if you tried contacting them .