Crazy bridge cost

[CaseyB]

I just got around to reading my MRATC club bulletin, and saw this:

"Since the 23-foot trail bridge at Feathercamp shows signs of rotting stringers, the Club formed a Committee to go over options with the Forest Service and ATC for safe stream crossings in that area. Regulations prevent the Club from simply replacing the stringers. The Forest Service engineer drew up plans for a 64-foot replacement bridge expected to cost about $62,000, meeting Forest Service requirements for bridges to be accessible to the handicapped and in keeping with regulations for flood plains. Since Club members are concered about the inpact of such a large structure in a rustic-looking area, as well as about possible flooding and washing out of the nearby Straight Branch Bridge, the Committee, Forest Service, and ATC are exploring the possibility of re-routing the AT in that area to eliminate the need for both bridges."

-So it sounds like they will have to bring the AT down to the Creeper for a short section to use one of the shorter trestles near the Straight Branch parking lot. That is not too big of a deal, I guess, but I have to wonder if every little stream crossing (Feathercamp Branch is pretty small, you could probably hop rocks & stay dry 90% of the time) is supposed to cost $60,000?

[mikec]

When I section hiked that area I took the Creeper north out of Damascus until I got to the second AT intersection that took me to the Lost Mountain Shelter. I enjoyed it more than I would have going up and then back down the mountain.

[Ox97GaMe]

Unfortunately, the FS and NPS have a way of making a lot of the projects on the AT more expensive. I dont know what all is in their proposal, but here are some things that we have been encountering in the south related to trail structures.

a) cannot use wheeled vehicles or pack animals to haul materials into a location. It has to be carried, or in most cases air lifted to the location. A typical air lift will and approx $15-20,000 to a project. New moldering privies in the Smokies are going to cost approx $25,000 each.

b) on the subject of privies. Moldering privies now have to use native materials (no bagged mulch) and cannot import the most desireable red worms. Worms have to be of the local nature as well.

c) Environmental studies are required in order to determine if a structure (including the trail itself) interferes with habitat for endangered flora or fauna. These studies also include rainwater run off into local streams and the impacts that would have on local flora and fauna.

d) In order to maintain federal funding, the ATC is required to adhere to ADA regulations for all new construction. Yes, this even includes trail relocations. All new trail must be handicap accessible, even if it is 20 miles from the road, and the trail TO the new section is not yet handicap accessible. All shelters and privies must adhere to ADA guidelines as well.

[Tennessee Viking]

Whats the location of the bridge from Damascus?

Sounds like the its going to be a Konnarock Crew project. Nothing cheaper than a bunch of volunteers working on trail.

[Lone Wolf]

where the AT crosses hwy 58 five miles north of town

[CaseyB]

I believe our trail club intended for it to be a simple, cheap project. Not to speak for them as I am only a dues-payer, not an active member, but I got the impression that they would have been happy to just replace the bridge with another one like it.

To give folks some scope of the creek being bridged, just after the crossing in question Feathercamp branch goes under route 58 via a 4' or 5' corrugated pipe. The bridge seems more geared towards convenience rather than safety.

[Wise Old Owl]

62k vs treading water... Ok.... hope the pack cover works....


Look folks... There is an issue here, even if you have volunteers and good folk that are engineers who can help. You have to find three worthy companies or businesses that are willing to DO the work or provide the materials. This is where the ATC steps in to offer some up front cost or "discovers" a worthy donator. Three proposals and the cheapest one wins.... Someone needs to step up... That's the SHORT post.... Time and Material and a Licensed Osha provider with 2M in liability Insurance, it's called overhead! Here is the alternative and due to rampant lawsuits this wire bridge was removed in the last ten years. These don't exsist anymore today in your lifetime.


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/wirebridge.jpg

[Pokey2006]

[quote=Ox97GaMe;817050
d) In order to maintain federal funding, the ATC is required to adhere to ADA regulations for all new construction. Yes, this even includes trail relocations. All new trail must be handicap accessible, even if it is 20 miles from the road, and the trail TO the new section is not yet handicap accessible. All shelters and privies must adhere to ADA guidelines as well.[/quote]

I don't know that this is entirely accurate. Now, I know some shelters/privies/huts have been made handicapped accessible, and that probably does have a lot to do with receiving federal funding for the projects. But you could still do those projects without federal funding and not have to make them accessible, I would think.

But making the trail itself handicapped accessible? Well, that just doesn't ring true for me. Where is the source of that information?

[Tennessee Viking]

where the AT crosses hwy 58 five miles north of townIts been a couple years since I last walked that section. All I can remember are a couple log bridges.


I believe our trail club intended for it to be a simple, cheap project. Not to speak for them as I am only a dues-payer, not an active member, but I got the impression that they would have been happy to just replace the bridge with another one like it.

To give folks some scope of the creek being bridged, just after the crossing in question Feathercamp branch goes under route 58 via a 4' or 5' corrugated pipe. The bridge seems more geared towards convenience rather than safety.Have the Mt Rogers Club look into grant money. With the Eastman club, we got a number of grants from LL Bean for bridge projects. We also ask members of our club to donate scrap lumber.

For most of our bridges, we use locusts logs for of the more remote sections. Then lumber bridges on closer to road bridges. We also use dry wall lathe bridges. Then maybe, a handrail depending on the height.


Unfortunately, the FS and NPS have a way of making a lot of the projects on the AT more expensive. I dont know what all is in their proposal, but here are some things that we have been encountering in the south related to trail structures.

d) In order to maintain federal funding, the ATC is required to adhere to ADA regulations for all new construction. Yes, this even includes trail relocations. All new trail must be handicap accessible, even if it is 20 miles from the road, and the trail TO the new section is not yet handicap accessible. All shelters and privies must adhere to ADA guidelines as well.Where did you get that info. The AT is exempt from ADA regulations. The AT has waterbars, bridges, not to mention rocky areas where no wheelchair can access. But there are a few sections where the grade is friendly enough for wheelchair access. My club has only one small area that fits wheelchair accessibilty and thats at TN91, the old Osborne farm.

[Lone Wolf]

Where did you get that info. The AT is exempt from ADA regulations.
not true. the new privy at Old Orchard shelter is wheelchair accessible cuz it's in a wilderness area. waste of time and money. nobody in a chair couldet there except by helicopter

[mweinstone]

your a waste of time.


thats all i got. slow morning. i might go mess with minnesota smith in a new thread im thinking of starting called"sex with ms?"

[Lone Wolf]

your a waste of time.



if that's how you feel. fine
when's your wedding?

[4eyedbuzzard]

thats all i got. slow morning. i might go mess with minnesota smith in a new thread im thinking of starting called"sex with ms?"

Please post that in any forum other than "general". My inbox is full.

[FlyPaper]

Whats the location of the bridge from Damascus?

Sounds like the its going to be a Konnarock Crew project. Nothing cheaper than a bunch of volunteers working on trail.

Is this the location?

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/6/0/5/3/AT070_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=17354&c=member&imageuser=6053)

[ki0eh]

$62,000 sounds cheap to me for a project cost for a 45' bridge. Once the government people glom on to a bridge it gets all public works like with such things as prevailing wage, minority business, etc. in addition to the ADA that applies to anything termed a public accommodation. I'm involved right now in an 85' fiberglass bridge - the actual cost of the bridge itself is $42,000 but the project cost with the grant restrictions has ballooned to $150,000. This particular grant actually prohibits any engineer who is a member of the group from working for any compensation on the project, so forget any discounted rate. One would be hard pressed to find any single engineer with the time and current skills to donate all of the drawing time, hydraulic, structural, geotechnical, engineering requirements that are imposed by these government glommers - though perhaps the USFS can handle that by charging only the direct time and expenses, which might bring it back down to $62,000. :)

[Ox97GaMe]

Im on the maintenance committee for SMHC. The new privies that are going in between NOC and Davenport Gap are all required to be wheelchair accessible as well as follow standard ADA guidelines. We cant put in an old single hole pit privy with a seat and a 4x4 shed. The base platform inside the privy is required to be large enough for a wheelchair to spin around. We are also required to have a ramp built to the platform. Cannot put steps (or need a combination).

I was a maintainer for GATC for 7 years and been part of a lot of the relo construction that has occurred there. Every new stretch of trail that was constructed started with a discussion about ADA guidelines.

I have also had discussions with Bob Peoples about ADA and trail maintenance. This discussion occurs within TEHC as well. ADA does not mean trail has to be 'wheelchair accessible'. What you are seeing is new trail built with no more than 15% grade. New trial is built to 24 inches wide.

The ADA guidelines do not apply to maintenance of existing treadway. It is being applied to new trail construction; ie. relocations.

I agree that there will always be sections of the trail that will be difficult to modify to become wheelchair accessible (like NH and Maine), but you will be suprised how much of the rest of the trail system changes over the next 10-15 years.

[UnkaJesse]

This is friggin' nuts. What congressional moron decided that a footpath through the wilderness has to comply to ADA standards? The g-d lawyers are ruining this country!

Where the fudge is common sense?

[Pokey2006]

ADA does not mean trail has to be 'wheelchair accessible'. What you are seeing is new trail built with no more than 15% grade. New trial is built to 24 inches wide.


Thanks for the clarification. When you say trail has to be "handicapped accessible," most people take that to mean "wheelchair accessible." This make a little more sense.

I would think issues like erosion would be more important than handicapped accessibility, when building new structures or trails in the wilderness. No?

[YoungMoose]

62k vs treading water... Ok.... hope the pack cover works....


Look folks... There is an issue here, even if you have volunteers and good folk that are engineers who can help. You have to find three worthy companies or businesses that are willing to DO the work or provide the materials. This is where the ATC steps in to offer some up front cost or "discovers" a worthy donator. Three proposals and the cheapest one wins.... Someone needs to step up... That's the SHORT post.... Time and Material and a Licensed Osha provider with 2M in liability Insurance, it's called overhead! Here is the alternative and due to rampant lawsuits this wire bridge was removed in the last ten years. These don't exsist anymore today in your lifetime.


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/wirebridge.jpgthat would be so much fun to cross hehe :D

[john gault]

Im on the maintenance committee for SMHC. The new privies that are going in between NOC and Davenport Gap are all required to be wheelchair accessible as well as follow standard ADA guidelines. We cant put in an old single hole pit privy with a seat and a 4x4 shed. The base platform inside the privy is required to be large enough for a wheelchair to spin around. We are also required to have a ramp built to the platform. Cannot put steps (or need a combination).

I was a maintainer for GATC for 7 years and been part of a lot of the relo construction that has occurred there. Every new stretch of trail that was constructed started with a discussion about ADA guidelines.

I have also had discussions with Bob Peoples about ADA and trail maintenance. This discussion occurs within TEHC as well. ADA does not mean trail has to be 'wheelchair accessible'. What you are seeing is new trail built with no more than 15% grade. New trial is built to 24 inches wide.

The ADA guidelines do not apply to maintenance of existing treadway. It is being applied to new trail construction; ie. relocations.

I agree that there will always be sections of the trail that will be difficult to modify to become wheelchair accessible (like NH and Maine), but you will be suprised how much of the rest of the trail system changes over the next 10-15 years.
Big government

[Pokey2006]

Looks like it would actually be easier -- and faster, possibly even more fun -- to just walk through the water.

[john gault]

Thanks for the clarification. When you say trail has to be "handicapped accessible," most people take that to mean "wheelchair accessible." This make a little more sense.

I would think issues like erosion would be more important than handicapped accessibility, when building new structures or trails in the wilderness. No?
What's the definition of a wheelchair? Old-style wheelchairs are becoming the thing of the past.

[CaseyB]

62k vs treading water... Ok.... hope the pack cover works....


ten years. These don't exsist anymore today in your lifetime.


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/wirebridge.jpg
That is not Feathercamp, nor is Feathercamp anywhere near that size.


Is this the location?

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/6/0/5/3/AT070_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=17354&c=member&imageuser=6053)
No, that's not it either, but you are close in both size of creek and location.., Feathercamp is just South of that bridge across 58.
Again I don't think anybody is going to spend $60,000, I think a re-route is going to happen to avoid spending $64,000 on something that should cost $100.

[Pokey2006]

What's the definition of a wheelchair? Old-style wheelchairs are becoming the thing of the past.

Wheelchair = chair with wheels.

[john gault]

Wheelchair = chair with wheels.
Sometimes I just say stupid things. I guess my point was...that wheelchairs today are not what I first picture in my mind when I hear the word, "Wheelchair" (http://mentalfloss.cachefly.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/LTWT_WHEELCHAIR_LRG.jpg). They're more like scooters today, so if trails have to meet certain criteria, as mentioned in Ox97GaMe's post, Then you really do have to wonder what the trail will look like in 10-15 years:

...I have also had discussions with Bob Peoples about ADA and trail maintenance. This discussion occurs within TEHC as well. ADA does not mean trail has to be 'wheelchair accessible'. What you are seeing is new trail built with no more than 15% grade. New trial is built to 24 inches wide.

The ADA guidelines do not apply to maintenance of existing treadway. It is being applied to new trail construction; ie. relocations.

I agree that there will always be sections of the trail that will be difficult to modify to become wheelchair accessible (like NH and Maine), but you will be suprised how much of the rest of the trail system changes over the next 10-15 years.

.

There's even forums for wheelchairs http://wheelchairforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=582


.

[Skyline]

Sometimes, when you simply "repair" something instead of tearing it down and rebuilding it, you can accomplish more with less.

Before this became a topic of discussion among government partners, had anyone at MRATC (the actual maintainer, for example, with a couple close friends) thought about simply rehabbing what is already there with old-looking boards without getting anyone else involved? Very quietly, of course.

This sort of solution isn't "elegant" and it sort of thumbs its nose at those high-falutin' regs, but it often works. Effectively and cheaply. Even when (or if) the "upgrade" is finally noticed by someone in authority, they will often let it pass. And if they don't, there's always "oooooops!"

If the "bridge" being discussed here is where I think it is, we're not talking about a big one anyway.

[shelterbuilder]

62k vs treading water... Ok.... hope the pack cover works....


Look folks... There is an issue here, even if you have volunteers and good folk that are engineers who can help. You have to find three worthy companies or businesses that are willing to DO the work or provide the materials. This is where the ATC steps in to offer some up front cost or "discovers" a worthy donator. Three proposals and the cheapest one wins.... Someone needs to step up... That's the SHORT post.... Time and Material and a Licensed Osha provider with 2M in liability Insurance, it's called overhead! Here is the alternative and due to rampant lawsuits this wire bridge was removed in the last ten years. These don't exsist anymore today in your lifetime.


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/wirebridge.jpg

That crossing looks vaguely familiar...is this anywhere near Warwick County Park in Pa., on the Horseshoe Trail???

[vonfrick]

Is this the location?

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/6/0/5/3/AT070_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=17354&c=member&imageuser=6053)


No, that's not it either, but you are close in both size of creek and location.., Feathercamp is just South of that bridge across 58.
Again I don't think anybody is going to spend $60,000, I think a re-route is going to happen to avoid spending $64,000 on something that should cost $100.

if it truly is that size, what the hell you need a bridge for??

[Lone Wolf]

if it truly is that size, what the hell you need a bridge for??

yeah really. the MATC would laugh at that bridge :)

[CowHead]

The have to cover the troll cost some how?