View Full Version : Solicitation on public lands?
So, I went for a hike yesterday in the Boulder Open Space system. (http://www.bouldercolorado.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2794&Itemid=1036)
Essentially the town park. A chance to get away for a an hour or two...of even for a full day.
Evey year, there are people in town (typically college age or slightly older) who go to Pearl St, the town library and other public places to ask "Do you have a minute for.." Health care. The environment. Etc.
Well, yesterday they were at the hiking trailhead!
I was a little taken back.
This letter was published online in the local paper:
http://www.dailycamera.com/blogs/letters-editor-blog/2009/apr/15/magnanti/
Has this happened to other people in similar situations? I do not think I'm the only one who does NOT want to discuss health care reform while I am about to go hiking!
sbennett
04-15-2009, 14:34
Areas like parks and sidewalks are considered public forums. As such, the content of speech in those areas cannot be restricted. However, the government may pass a time, place, and manner restrictions on speech in certain areas. The local Boulder government could pass such an ordinance and be just fine. Another idea is a free speech zone (or a 1st Amendment expression area) where the "activists" have to stay when performing their activity. I believe there's even one of these in the parking lot at Clingman's Dome.
Ah..but legally correct and ethically correct are two different things.
Is it right (not discussing legalities) to solicit at a trail head?
As I said, it is where many of us go to get away from such things. I think many of us have a reasonable expectation of avoiding this crap when we are on a trail. It wasn't even outdoor related!
It is a shame, but the line between wilderness and the everyday life is getting blurred. Sadly, I suspect we'll see more of this crap in public lands.
sbennett
04-15-2009, 14:48
Legal and ethical concerns aside I'm not sure I even see the point of soliciting various causes in person. I don't think I've ever stopped to listen to these people and I'm curious if many people have ever had their view on any issue changed by a street activist.
Trailheads are one thing and I guess I could live with it if I had to (perhaps I'm just good at ignoring annoying people); can you imagine if they were actually a couple miles up the trail at a popular resting spot, overlook, or waterfall. Now that would really bother me.
So, I went for a hike yesterday in the Boulder Open Space system. (http://www.bouldercolorado.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2794&Itemid=1036)
Essentially the town park. A chance to get away for a an hour or two...of even for a full day.
Evey year, there are people in town (typically college age or slightly older) who go to Pearl St, the town library and other public places to ask "Do you have a minute for.." Health care. The environment. Etc.
Well, yesterday they were at the hiking trailhead!
I was a little taken back.
This letter was published online in the local paper:
http://www.dailycamera.com/blogs/letters-editor-blog/2009/apr/15/magnanti/
Has this happened to other people in similar situations? I do not think I'm the only one who does NOT want to discuss health care reform while I am about to go hiking!
I'd be tempted to stop, appear to engage them as I dug through my pack, then pull out a big stogie and have a discussion of personal responsibility with them as I puffed smoke all around.....but probably wouldn't do it!
sheepdog
04-15-2009, 14:58
Is it that hard to say "No thanks" and keep on going?
Sometimes those issue people are hot chicks - I remember when I was single and lived in Iowa I was awfully interested in discussing the dangers of carcinogenic fabric softener sheets with one of those. Although I didn't even get in the stadium with her much less to first base, it did raise my awareness of that issue which hitherto I had been softly unaware of.
StarLyte
04-15-2009, 15:54
I'm with ya Mags.
Tacky tacky tacky.
Bothersome. Annoying.
How was your hike - ? :sun
skinewmexico
04-15-2009, 15:55
Zealots with a social agenda. What can you do? They're obviously morally and ethically superior.
Had a similar experience recently at the trailhead for the Zaleski backpacking trail. I had just gotten out of my car and was extending my hiking poles when this guy and his wife (I assume) pulled into the parking lot in their mini-van. He started asking me about fishing in the area; I think he mistook my hiking poles for fishing rods from the road and had nothing else in mind to serve as small conversation. I was about to leave when he pulled out a religious phamplet and said "I've got something for you." I handed it back to him and told him he could keep it, then turned away.
I doubt very much that anyone has every been converted at a trailhead by someone passing out literature, plus it put me in a bit of a bad mood. I'm old enough that my beard is gray, and if I haven't made up my mind by now, being approached by someone using deceptive tactics isn't going to convince me.
Having voiced this complaint, however, I have to come down on the side of free speech. Those who want to make fools of themselves or turn off others to their cause may do so. I just wish they were aware of the damage they probably do to their cause. And I maintain my right to be offended and ignore them.
StarLyte
04-15-2009, 16:09
Had a similar experience recently at the trailhead for the Zaleski backpacking trail.......
Zaleski? State property.
Baaaad.
Psh, nobody complains when I'm selling hot dogs and cheese steaks at Elk Penn
Is it that hard to say "No thanks" and keep on going?
No it is not. But why should we have to? Many of us go to escape that crap. If they are on the Pearl St Mall that's one thing. It is Boulder's living room (if you will)..but at a nature trail head? Where we can't avoid them?
Perhaps I'd should go just outside a church on Sunday morning and give pamphlets on atheism? For many of us Nature is our church...and it is just as bad form as soliciting at a church.
My hike was great! About five miles or so with some stiff elevation gain...and with wonderful views to the Continental Divide. Similar hike today.
It may not be "right" but they have the right. Your title says it all: "Public Lands".
If you didn't want to talk a simple "No, thank you" and head on down the road would suffice.
If you didn't want to talk a simple "No, thank you" and head on down the road would suffice.
So, if I post myself in front on your sidewalk by your house and solicit you, you would not protest? How about if I parked myself at the main trailhead for the Cirque of the Towers and was right in front of the trail itself?
You honestly would not care?
Perhaps I can talk about virtues of Pepsi at the trail head? What about an overlook? A campsite?
(..and that would be trail..not road.)
I am a firm believer that the right to do what you want ends where my nose begins. And asking my opinion on health care..on a trail, gets right in my nose.
IT is harder and harder to get away from the grind of society. We need some places free from such distraction.
It is simple matter of courtesy and ethics. Something lacking more and more it seems.
..I should also add that these people aren't merely wanting to discuss the XYZ issue, they also put your name on a list so they can hit you up for money.
Perhaps have Pepsi kiosks at National Parks,too. And most people won't really care. Just as long as the gift shop is full of totchkes. :sun
Try to sell them one of your books, or some essys you have written. If they don't buy it let, them know you are going to hang out in front of them for while so you can talk to people about your "stuff" when they come by. I think you will have a fun time and have a good story to tell. I would laugh about it for sure.
Old Hillwalker
04-15-2009, 19:58
Wow! Wish I had been there. It's been a very long time since I have been able to employ the Moonie Repellent dialogue that I cultivated after many hours spent passing through Washington National Airport (now Reagan) in the 70s. Brings a smile to my ugly face thinking about those terrified expressions.
Rain Man
04-15-2009, 20:05
I am a firm believer that the right to do what you want ends where my nose begins. And asking my opinion on health care..on a trail, gets right in my nose.
IT is harder and harder to get away from the grind of society. We need some places free from such distraction....
Absolutely. Away from issues, politics, drugs, booze, dogs, guns, Boy Scouts, and those with said agendas.
:D
Sometimes, though, you just gotta chill and not sweat the small stuff. Have a great hike tomorrow and we'll hope you don't get solicited.
Rain:sunMan
.
Ah..but legally correct and ethically correct are two different things.
Is it right (not discussing legalities) to solicit at a trail head?
As I said, it is where many of us go to get away from such things. I think many of us have a reasonable expectation of avoiding this crap when we are on a trail. It wasn't even outdoor related!
It is a shame, but the line between wilderness and the everyday life is getting blurred. Sadly, I suspect we'll see more of this crap in public lands.
Unfortunately, I don't think there will be much luck in ending this, especially as long as the Lions and other groups are allowed to stop vehicles and impede traffic in the middle of busy intersections. This method is much more invasive to me, but I have gotten very good at just driving by without acknowledging. The same would probably be effective at a trail head.
I feel no real obligation to stop to socialize when people are pushing themselves on me.
This sounds like a wonderful opportunity to have some fun with these folks.
Like, they have to listen to my diatribe if I have to listen to theirs! And y'all know I speak Diatribe fluently! :eek:
Then I'd still get to go hiking! A win-win! ;)
The Old Fhart
04-15-2009, 20:24
I was in Boulder a couple of weeks ago walking on a number of the bike paths along the creeks plus in a number of the small parks and I wasn't approached. Of course that was a cold week even for the locals! I did find a number of geocaches though.:sun
Also had another nice meal at the Teahouse.
This sounds like a wonderful opportunity to have some fun with these folks.
Like, they have to listen to my diatribe if I have to listen to theirs! And y'all know I speak Diatribe fluently! :eek:
Then I'd still get to go hiking! A win-win! ;)
Thats the spirit!!!!!
So, if I post myself in front on your sidewalk by your house and solicit you, you would not protest? How about if I parked myself at the main trailhead for the Cirque of the Towers and was right in front of the trail itself?
You honestly would not care?
No,honestly,I wouldn't care, not enough to post about it here anyway. Looks like you're looking for some positive reinforcement. There, there Mags, it'll be OK.
People from the local "Environmental Council" stop by my house all the time. They don't stand on the sidewalk, they come up to the door, wanting my signature for one thing or another. I let them spiel and just say "no thank you".
What's so tough about that?
And "ease on down the road" comes from the old song. It's lyrical, not literal.
I'd put up with a little solicitation if we could do away with the advertising nuclear arms race everyone's involved in. I just picked up a prescription that cost me $300, and just knowing that 66% of the pharm's costs are advertising (compared to 33% R&D) makes me sick.
Just fricking strange.
If someone is at a bike path passing our Rails to Trials brochures, that's great.
If they are at a trail head looking to stop the Forest Service from handing over land to a ski area a mile down the road, no problem.
But that's not what you are describing at all.
Those folks should be encouraged to stand outside of a Starbucks. I don't go to Starbucks.
Let's hope what you encountered doesn't catch on.
So, I went for a hike yesterday in the Boulder Open Space system. (http://www.bouldercolorado.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2794&Itemid=1036)
Essentially the town park. A chance to get away for a an hour or two...of even for a full day.
Evey year, there are people in town (typically college age or slightly older) who go to Pearl St, the town library and other public places to ask "Do you have a minute for.." Health care. The environment. Etc.
Well, yesterday they were at the hiking trailhead!
I was a little taken back.
This letter was published online in the local paper:
http://www.dailycamera.com/blogs/letters-editor-blog/2009/apr/15/magnanti/
Has this happened to other people in similar situations? I do not think I'm the only one who does NOT want to discuss health care reform while I am about to go hiking!
It has happened to me and I can honestly say that whatever their cause, I'm much less likely to lend a sympathetic ear when I've been cornered in a location that I would normally consider a sanctuary from those types of intrusions.
The only way it's OK is if it's outdoor-related. And even at that, it should probably be something specific to the actual park you're in at the time.
No,honestly,I wouldn't care, not enough to post about it here anyway. Looks like you're looking for some positive reinforcement. There, there Mags, it'll be OK.
Trying to start a dialogue. A discussion. I don't know..some of us actually have opinions and like to express them and perhaps engage in some informed debate.
You obviously don't and like to get in a metaphorical d*** measuring contest instead.
Good for you!
Please PM your phone number. You obviously don't mind being bugged. If you could post your personal address publicly, we'll make sure I am posted on the sidewalk in front of your house as well next time I am in Wyoming. You don't mind after all?
Anyway, a bit of Boulder activism meets Northeast attitude (F*** OFF! You are bugging me!).
I think we need areas free from politics. A place simply to get away from the day-to-day. I would not think of being an activists in front of a church. Perhaps I am naive in my thoughts, but I think there should be some areas free from politics. Free from agendas. Free from what people consider a happy hunting ground to push their ideas. They may have have the right..but that does not make it right. As Engineer said, nature is a sanctuary.
Hoz does not agree. That's cool. Different ideas are good. But, instead, he wants to show his superior snarkiness instead of merely sharing his opinion. Again, a metaphoric d*** measure contest. You are older than me, I'd thought you be past such inane endeavors. If you have an idea, share it intelligently minus the crap.
If they don't buy it let, them know you are going to hang out in front of them for while so you can talk to people about your "stuff" when they come by. I think you will have a fun time and have a good story to tell. I would laugh about it for sure.
Now that sounds like an idea...
Trying to start a dialogue. A discussion. I don't know..some of us actually have opinions and like to express them and perhaps engage in some informed debate.
You obviously don't and like to get in a metaphorical d*** measuring contest instead.
Good for you!
Please PM your phone number. You obviously don't mind being bugged. If you could post your personal address publicly, we'll make sure I am posted on the sidewalk in front of your house as well next time I am in Wyoming. You don't mind after all?
Anyway, a bit of Boulder activism meets Northeast attitude (F*** OFF! You are bugging me!).
I think we need areas free from politics. A place simply to get away from the day-to-day. I would not think of being an activists in front of a church. Perhaps I am naive in my thoughts, but I think there should be some areas free from politics. Free from agendas. Free from what people consider a happy hunting ground to push their ideas. They may have have the right..but that does not make it right. As Engineer said, nature is a sanctuary.
Hoz does not agree. That's cool. Different ideas are good. But, instead, he wants to show his superior snarkiness instead of merely sharing his opinion. Again, a metaphoric d*** measure contest. You are older than me, I'd thought you be past such inane endeavors. If you have an idea, share it intelligently minus the crap.
Blah blah blah Mags, after this rant I guess you can't appreciate a little ribbing.
Where DO you stand on health care reform? Do you have insurance? Or do you think you're going to live forever without any health concerns. I know I did when I was your age.
These people were only trying to "target the market". They assumed anyone out hiking and enjoying the outdoors would be involved and interested in the current state of our HC system. Guess not in Boulder.
D**k measuring contest? No way, I'm Filipino and we have notoriously small d**ks!
You win the contest. Congrats.
Once upon a time I pulled into the church parking lot to vote in the Presidential Election ( about 4 years ago ). There in the parking lot were four adults wearing orange coats. I got out of the car and silently walked to the entrance. One individual ran up to me and pushed a leaflet into my hand. I gently but firmly pushed it back and asked the question; What Are You Doing ? The person was taken aback. I continued walking in, voted, came out, another person in an orange jacket wished me a happy day. I told him to do the same. They were in the parking lot about 50 yds away. Legal, but mildly annoying, in my opinion.
One can always communicate their displeasure with legal but unreasonable behavior in a civilized manner.
sherrill
04-16-2009, 12:55
I had some guy rudely push a pamphlet in my hand down on Wall Street without any explanation.
So, on the way back up, I just pushed it right back into his.
That was a Kodak moment for sure.
I agree. Politics might be ok for public spaces but I think natural space should be considered as something more than mere public spaces. People need to be allowed to find some sense of solitude and reverence for nature.
sbennett
04-16-2009, 14:04
I forgot to mention that when I read the title of this thread I thought Mags was asking about Prostitution on Public Lands, which, come to think of it, is a pretty interesting potential thread topic....
I forgot to mention that when I read the title of this thread I thought Mags was asking about Prostitution on Public Lands, which, come to think of it, is a pretty interesting potential thread topic....
Based on the responses, prostitution OF public lands may be OK.. :)
(Industrial tourism (http://www.solstice.us/abbey/industrial_tourism.html) anyone?)
...the thought of people in fishnets and lipstick asking if I want a good time at trailheads would be interesting, though. :p
Well yeah. It is the second oldest profession.
... and you gotta admire the ultralight qualities of fishnet stockings.
Mags I totally hear what you are saying but look where you are hiking at. The Republic of Bolder. You know how out spoken and the "I dont care what you think. You better think the way I think" attitudes they have there. It really doesnt surprise me.
sbennett
04-16-2009, 14:17
... and you gotta admire the ultralight qualities of fishnet stockings.
They breathe really well and they probably wick effectively too. :rolleyes:
I forgot to mention that when I read the title of this thread I thought Mags was asking about Prostitution on Public Lands, which, come to think of it, is a pretty interesting potential thread topic....Well yeah. After all, it is the world's second oldest profession. ...
sorry but I just had to try this again...
They breathe really well and they probably wick effectively too. :rolleyes:
OK..this is getting a little (???) off topic, but back in the day, fishnet underwear was actually popular for winter activities. Norwegian companies still make it and a few diehards swear by them:
http://www.aclima.no/index.php?lang=en
No word on high heels for winter use, though...
sheepdog
04-16-2009, 19:38
No it is not. But why should we have to? Many of us go to escape that crap. If they are on the Pearl St Mall that's one thing. It is Boulder's living room (if you will)..but at a nature trail head? Where we can't avoid them?
Perhaps I'd should go just outside a church on Sunday morning and give pamphlets on atheism? For many of us Nature is our church...and it is just as bad form as soliciting at a church.
My hike was great! About five miles or so with some stiff elevation gain...and with wonderful views to the Continental Divide. Similar hike today.
Something like this would only bother you if you let it. Let's be glad we live in a country with freedom of speach.
I'm glad you still enjoyed your hike.
Does this mean no autographed copy of Hike My own Hike Damn it!!!
generoll
04-16-2009, 20:17
kinda like the hari krishna folks soliciting in airports and malls. I guess they still do that someplaces. I don't get out all that much anymore.
Does this mean no autographed copy of Hike My own Hike Damn it!!!
For you, I'll even autograph my Snickers wrapper. ;)
Thanks for giving a difference of opinion in a constructive manner.
It was cold ,wet and drizzly today..with possibly 2 ft of snow on the way.
April is such a variable month!
sbennett
04-17-2009, 00:30
OK..this is getting a little (???) off topic, but back in the day, fishnet underwear was actually popular for winter activities. Norwegian companies still make it and a few diehards swear by them:
http://www.aclima.no/index.php?lang=en
No word on high heels for winter use, though...
Yikes, now those are some clothes I hope never to see on hikers around here!
Can you get high heels with Vibram soles? lol
You win the contest. Congrats.
There is no contest intended on my part. If you considered it so that's your hang up.
From visits to some other countries I have mastered the kick low hand gesture and curt 'No'. Nothing wrong with using that here I suppose, but its a shame because some folks might just want directions or something like that. Here I will always listen, and if it turns out they are soliciting politics on God's doorstep I will give them a piece of my mind up one side and down the other, and not in a nice way. If they want to give me their politics then I will give them mine. I don't even care if its an issue I agree with, like sustainability or something like that. If I think its the wrong time, place, and occassion I will really let them have it. Yeah I made a couple of cub scouts cry once, and I'll do it again. Sunday dinner is no time to be selling apples. :D
EverydayJourneyman
04-17-2009, 09:43
Ah, my mind went to a different sort of solicitation.
Sunday dinner is no time to be selling apples. :D
I'm stealing that!:jump
It must be my Auld Scottish Pedestrian upbringing coming through. ;)
saimyoji
04-17-2009, 17:41
It must be my Auld Scottish Pedestrian upbringing coming through. ;)
Just be glad you're not Filipino. :eek:
Just be glad you're not Filipino. :eek:Not exactly sure what you mean, but now that you mention it a good friend of ours is Filipino and come to think of it she and hers are pretty damned Scots. lol
That's the trouble with most people in this damn world. They're too much like us. ;)
saimyoji
04-17-2009, 21:33
Not exactly sure what you mean, but now that you mention it a good friend of ours is Filipino and come to think of it she and hers are pretty damned Scots. lol
you should probably go back and read the whole thread. :rolleyes:
or maybe not and say I did
saimyoji
04-17-2009, 21:55
or maybe not and say I did
its got something to do with wind chill i think. ;)
sheepdog
04-19-2009, 22:11
For you, I'll even autograph my Snickers wrapper. ;)
Thanks for giving a difference of opinion in a constructive manner.
It was cold ,wet and drizzly today..with possibly 2 ft of snow on the way.
April is such a variable month!
You da man Mags. Could I just have the Snickers instead??
freefall
04-29-2009, 22:15
Mags:
It my be stretch, but after reading through the Bolder County Parks and Open Space rules and regulations, there are a couple of regs that might address this.
Resolution 2008-311:
Article 19 might cover this. It prohibits creating a
nuisance.
Article 20 says they can't impede traffic on the trail. So if
they were standing between you and the direction you
were traveling that would be impediment.
Then Article 22: section b says that if they came in an
aircraft, then they are in violation. Unless it was an
emergency landing.:D
http://www.bouldercounty.org/openspace/recreating/public_parks/parks_pdfs/Rules&Regs2008-311.pdf