View Full Version : Ken Knight Missing on Appalachian Trail
Posted on Backpacking Light website, with request to distribute notice:
*** URGENT ***
Backpacking Light editor KEN KNIGHT is missing after a hike on the Applachian Trail in Virginia.
If you saw Ken or otherwise know of his whereabouts after Sunday morning, please contact us at the following email address:
PUBLISHER@BACKPACKINGLIGHT.COM
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=20748&skip_to_post=165712#165712
skinewmexico
04-30-2009, 12:25
A little more info -
About Ken
Ken is 5'4" tall and approx. 180-200 lb. He is vision impaired, has dark hair, and is probably using a dry bag-style pack with an orange packbag.
Ken is an experienced AT hiker but his vision impairment may have caused him to lose the trail.
Point Last Seen
He was last seen on the AT on Sunday at Punchbowl Mountain, Blue Ridge Parkway, mile 51.7, in the area of Buchanan and Bedford, Virginia.
He'd been trailing behind a group and meeting up with them at their camp sites. On Sunday, he reported not feeling well and suggested he
might go off the trail. The group did not see him since leaving Punchbowl Mountain on Sunday.
He was anticipated to reach mile 76.3 on Tuesday, which the rest of the group did. To date, he has not arrived, and he has missed his flight back home to Michigan Wednesday night.
Miss Janet
04-30-2009, 12:33
Oh my gosh, I hope he is ok. I have shuttled Ken on several different occaisions... and worried about him a few times. But he is very resourceful and is an amazing hiker despite his vision limitations. I know there are lots of Thrus in VA right now so hopefully he will be found soon.
Jolly Lama
04-30-2009, 12:33
I am posting this for Ryan Jordan the editor of backpacking light
"feel free to post a link to this thread at Whiteblaze, or anywhere else. I'll be the point person to manage communications from BPL's channels including backpackinglight.com, twitter.com/backpacking and twitter.com/bigskyry, and FB. Thanks." Ali
Has anyone called the local hospitals? Stonewall Jackson (Carilion) in Lexington, Lynchburg General, etc. Punchbowl is 5 miles up the mountain from where I am sitting and the closest hospital is Lexington. Wish I had seen this earlier. Nessmuk went up on the mountain this morning. i will ask him on his return.
Frau
Repost: Forward any pertinent information to PUBLISHER@BACKPACKINGLIGHT.COM
Repost: Forward any pertinent information to PUBLISHER@BACKPACKINGLIGHT.COM
Do they have a search team out looking for him. I might be hiking in that area tomorrow.
Do they have a search team out looking for him. I might be hiking in that area tomorrow.
I read your article, I see the rangers are looking for him, I will be in the area tommorow. I'll keep my eyes open. when you referred to mile 76, i assume you mean mile 76 in the BRP?
Here's a picture from the trip, as posted on BPL
http://cache.backpackinglight.com/backpackinglight/images/items/ken-knight_lg.jpg
I read your article, I see the rangers are looking for him, I will be in the area tommorow. I'll keep my eyes open. when you referred to mile 76, i assume you mean mile 76 in the BRP?
That was the group's take-out point, and Ken never made it there. However, he was actually last seen at Punchbowl shelter on Sunday morning. There are more details on the original posting at BPL in the links above. Ken posted a twitter 12-second video blog entry that morning, and it is also linked at BPL.
The video was shot from an overlook, and I wonder if he lost footing somewhere, and no one has spotted him. I would think that any search and rescue efforts would begin at that point near Punchbowl shelter.
Just checked with Nessmuk. He was not in the immediate vicinity of Petite's Gap.
Frau
When you say visually impaired, how severe?
Blissful
04-30-2009, 15:12
Wow hope he's okay. Sorry to hear this.
When you say visually impaired, how severe?
He's legally blind, not totally. But, he cannot see blazes. I hiked with him briefly on the first day of this trip, and I did ask him bluntly, "What can you see?" He simply replied to me, "Not much." He also told me that he could not see blazes. I went down the Three Ridges with him through the switchbacks and stayed with him there, as I noticed it took him quite a while to sort out all the hard turns through the switchbacks. It wasn't that he was lost, it just naturally took him longer to get through the turns than someone with full vision. He seems to look for and feel for the treadway. He also uses trek poles. I'm sure he would have made it through the switchbacks without me there, but I just felt better walking slowly through the turns so that my movement indicated to him where the trail went. The day was getting late, and we were supposed to make it to Harper's Creek that night, which we all did.
Ken is a VERY capable backpacker. He certainly made it further than I did on the trip, as I only traveled from Reed's Gap on Wednesday to the top of the Priest on Thursday. He continued on and was with the group until Sunday morning. Meanwhile, I wimped out on a blistered heel and turned around at the Priest and headed north back toward the van.
jonathanb23
04-30-2009, 16:44
A new note from Ryan over on BPL:
"HAVE YOU HIKED WITH KEN KNIGHT BEFORE? (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?display_style=nested&forum_thread_id=20748&nid=165785) Posted 04/30/2009 13:35:53 MDT by Ryan Jordan (ryan) I'm looking for Ken's hiking partners.
I'm most interested in folks who have been hiking with Ken on multiple trips, over the span of many months/years.
If you meet these criteria, please drop us a note at publisher@backpackinglight.com with your phone number, email address, and a brief description of your experience with Ken, so we can put VA SAR in touch with you for an interview.
Thanks,
Ryan
"
jaywalke
04-30-2009, 18:30
Ken can see fuzzily to 10-15', but can't see clearly (like to read) beyond a few inches. He loses the trail a lot, cusses and thrashes through the brush until he finds his way back onto the tread, and then keeps chugging.
I really hope that he didn't take a bad fall. I'm going home to pack my gear and be ready to head up there.
gregoryknight
04-30-2009, 19:19
I am Ken's brother, Greg. As has been said, Ken is a very capable and experienced hiker.
Because he has been missing and not heard from in so many days, at this point we are quite concerned that something bad has happened.
I wanted to let you all know how much we appreciate anything you do to help find Ken.
with appreciation,
Greg
The Weasel
04-30-2009, 19:43
For reasons I cannot fathom, I just received a phone call from the Ann Arbor (Michigan) newspaper about this. Asked "Is it dangerous to hike the AT" and "Are there many bears and such things," my response was, "No, it is not dangerous. But it can be dangerous to hike it." There will be much hysteria on this; let's just hope this guy is hunkered down somewhere. I was told that the NPS was involved in the search.
The Weasel
I am Ken's brother, Greg. As has been said, Ken is a very capable and experienced hiker.
Because he has been missing and not heard from in so many days, at this point we are quite concerned that something bad has happened.
I wanted to let you all know how much we appreciate anything you do to help find Ken.
with appreciation,
Greg
Hey Greg, I will be hiking with my son in this area tommorow. Is there a specific area where the park rangers and the search teams would recommend we hike. We will just be day hiking so picking a spot to park on the Blue ridge Parkway will be easy and trail access is very easy along this section, because the Parkway pretty much paralels the trail in this area.
John
Praying everything's OK!
The Weasel
04-30-2009, 19:52
I am Ken's brother, Greg. As has been said, Ken is a very capable and experienced hiker.
Because he has been missing and not heard from in so many days, at this point we are quite concerned that something bad has happened.
I wanted to let you all know how much we appreciate anything you do to help find Ken.
with appreciation,
Greg
Greg:
In the news story that I got called about from the A2 News, I mentioned that I was struck by the statement that Ken said he might "go off the trail." That often means, among long distance hikers, not going into non-trail woods, but going into a town or stopping at a motel or hostel. For someone not feeling well, that might be what happened. You might suggest this to searchers, who might check road crossings for drivers who might have seen him hitching, and check nearby motels/hostels or friends of the AT.
Our prayers, of course.
The Weasel
Blissful
04-30-2009, 20:33
I am Ken's brother, Greg. As has been said, Ken is a very capable and experienced hiker.
Because he has been missing and not heard from in so many days, at this point we are quite concerned that something bad has happened.
I wanted to let you all know how much we appreciate anything you do to help find Ken.
with appreciation,
Greg
Greg, sure hoping and praying for good news. Thinking of you and the family. Take care.
YoungMoose
04-30-2009, 20:57
we should try to get something posted on the front page of the atc
Jolly Green Giant
04-30-2009, 21:52
All -
I was with Ken on the hike and left the trail early before Ken went missing. I alerted Ryan Jordan with Backpackinglight.com and he fortunately set a fire under this issue. For all practical purposes, Ken has been missing since SUNDAY.
To clear up some conflicting information, WE NEED HELP SEARCHING FOR HIM! When someone says, "the NPS is involved", please understand this means TWO Rangers patrolling over 200 miles of road and the backcountry. The NPS was notified and the only thing they could do at the time was interview hikers and check shelter logs. Simply put, we need volunteers with feet on the ground.
Ken was last seen on Saturday April 25th at the Punchbowl Shelter in Buena Vista, VA. He was supposed to be heading southbound. He transmitted a 12 second video from his iPHONE to one of his websites at 6:30am the following morning. It is assumed he therefore was at the Punchbowl Shelter on Sunday morning.
From there, his whereabouts are unknown.
He had been lagging behind quite a bit and insisted on being left alone by the small group of hikers who were on the trip. He did not come with anyone and most hikers were not aware of his vision problems until it was obvious that he, as someone said, "cusses and thrashes through the brush until he finds his way back onto the trail". This is an accurate description. Ken is VERY independent and in many ways he got quite aggitated when others tried to help him. He has quite a background in hiking and there was no reason to believe that he would have problems on a marked trail.
There are three general theories of what could have happened to him. First, he was about 200-300 yards from Blue Ridge Parkway. Simply, he could have hitched a ride out. Second, he could have taken the wrong trail at some point. Third, he may have had an accident.
If you are in the area, please do NOT be a bystander. Get involved. If you have vacation at work, take a day. PLEASE. I'm heading out there tomorrow and it is UNCLEAR if there is an organized team of searchers involved. Keep in mind, this really did not become an issue until last night when everyone started fact checking one another. Check backpackinglight.com for updates as there really is no other centralized body.
bullseye
04-30-2009, 23:24
[quote=Jolly Green Giant;829557]All -
Ken was last seen on Saturday April 25th at the Punchbowl Shelter in Buena Vista, VA. He was supposed to be heading southbound. He transmitted a 12 second video from his iPHONE to one of his websites at 6:30am the following morning. It is assumed he therefore was at the Punchbowl Shelter on Sunday morning.
[quote]
Ken's video was shot from the summit of Bluff Mt, which is SOUTH of Punchbowl. He could have easily taken one of the intersecting trails south of there along the ridge by mistake. There is a trail in Salt Log Gap and the next gap that cross the AT.
HikeLite
04-30-2009, 23:46
It's beyond me why they waited four to five days to alert other AT hikers to this. I do hope Ken is found alive.
jaywalke
05-01-2009, 00:01
Ken's video was shot from the summit of Bluff Mt, which is SOUTH of Punchbowl. He could have easily taken one of the intersecting trails south of there along the ridge by mistake. There is a trail in Salt Log Gap and the next gap that cross the AT.
I was thinking that same thing when I looked over the map and saw all of the woods roads, atv trails, etc. He hikes like a steam engine, and if he finds anything that looks like a trail heading in something like the right direction, it's full speed ahead.
In the Tetons he missed a turn and was heading over the Continental Divide before we called him back. In the UP he missed a turn on the Lakeshore Trail, went all the way to the parking lot at Chapel Beach and back, and still beat me to the campsite. As I was rolling in I met him headed back out to look for me!
He does almost always figure it out, which is amazing given his level of sight. I'll be up there tomorrow, and hopefully we'll find him sitting on an old petered-out woods road, asking if anyone has seen the f%#*ing AT.
I dropped off a friend, trail name "O Ghost Who Walks," Monday 4/27 about 6:15pm at the James River. His ultimate destination is Thornton Gap in SNP. His plan was to hike north to Johns Hollow Shelter Monday night, then continue north Tuesday morning. If Ken Knight indeed would have stayed on the AT Sunday morning southbound, they might have encountered each other depending upon Ken's speed and whether he took side trips Sunday/Monday.
I think "Ghost" planned to go into Montebello for a maildrop and stay at the Dutch Haus for a zero. Seems like he should have made it there today (Thursday) or tomorrow (Friday). Anyone in the area searching for Ken might want to see if they can locate him, real name "Brooks," at Dutch Haus or somewhere on the AT not too far from Montebello. He may have encountered Ken; location of encounter would be a valuable piece of info for searchers.
bullseye
05-01-2009, 00:51
I was thinking that same thing when I looked over the map and saw all of the woods roads, atv trails, etc. He hikes like a steam engine, and if he finds anything that looks like a trail heading in something like the right direction, it's full speed ahead.
In the Tetons he missed a turn and was heading over the Continental Divide before we called him back. In the UP he missed a turn on the Lakeshore Trail, went all the way to the parking lot at Chapel Beach and back, and still beat me to the campsite. As I was rolling in I met him headed back out to look for me!
He does almost always figure it out, which is amazing given his level of sight. I'll be up there tomorrow, and hopefully we'll find him sitting on an old petered-out woods road, asking if anyone has seen the f%#*ing AT.
The trail through here is nice easy walking from Bluff to the James and I can see how someone who is sight impaired might take a turn. I don't remember the name of the gap south of salt log gap, but the side trail angles to the left while the At goes straight, and it's just as well defined. If you can't make out the blazes this would be an easy place to turn off. That being said, if Ken's on trail he would have to make his way downhill and come out sooner or later. This isn't remote wilderness and he is a skilled outdoorsman. My guess is he's doing the smart thing and just staying put waiting for help. The temps have been mild and the next 5 days are calling for rain everyday but highs in the 70's and lows in the 50-60 range. My bets on Ken, and I'll keep praying for him.
McKeever
05-01-2009, 00:51
Here's a link to a local tracker that might be able to assist. It might be worth while contacting them if they are not already involved w/ VA SAR.
Rob Speiden
Postal Address: 657 Coal Hollow Road Christiansburg, Virginia 24073
Email Address: trackingschool@yahoo.com (trackingschool@yahoo.com)
Phone Toll Free: (866) 67TRACK = (866) 678-7225
I will also send this to the backpackinglight.com web site.
My wife and I are willing to drive up from the Pearisburg area and assist on Friday if there is an organized search. We have seating for 6 more volunteer if anyone wants to ride up with us.
jonathanb23
05-01-2009, 00:58
Another Update for those not following the BPL thread (direct copy)
NEW Re: KEN KNIGHT IS MISSING ON APPALACHIAN TRAIL IN VA on 04/30/2009 21:40:06 MDT http://cache.backpackinglight.com/backpackinglight/elements/comment_add.png (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/mb_post_form.html?po=reply¬e_id=165906&forum_thread_id=20748) http://www.backpackinglight.com/backpackinglight/elements/flag_red.png (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/report_post.html?forum_thread_posting_id=165906&forum_thread_id=20748) http://cache.backpackinglight.com/backpackinglight/elements/printer.png (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=20748&nid=165906&print=1) First of all, thank you everyone for your patience, consideration, and information. I'm in awe at the amount of information that we've received, consolidated, and have been able to pass along to VA SAR.
Second, the ATC has been notified and their information officer will likely be the liaison to the individual trail clubs. If trail clubs would like to help, they should call ATC.
Third, a statewide VA SAR callout has been issued. There are going to be a very large number of searchers on the ground by morning. This is a huge, complex search encompassing an area of more than 300 square miles for the initial search focus. It's heavily wooded, steep, and almost futile to scan from the air. Spend some time in Google Earth and you'll appreciate what these guys are up against.
Today, NPS, along with some private parties, were the first on the ground to do a preliminary trail sweep. This was vital to making sure nobody was missing anything obvious. Tonight large search parties are being organized, and in the morning, a massive search begins in earnest.
We've had the opportunity to work with the VA SAR tracking team and we hope to God Ken is wearing his Inov-8's because they have one of the most unique sole patterns found anywhere...
In addition, our friends in Ann Arbor were able to go into Ken's house this evening and secure laundry items that will be delivered to VA SAR tomorrow evening for the K9 search teams. We were unable to make the last flight out of Detroit that could have gotten the items into Amhurst early tomorrow, so they are being driven across the country and delivered by hand.
I have been flooded with emails from people offering support and have a willingness to help with the search. I'm humbled, and thankful for that.
However, it's really important at this point to let VA SAR take the reigns and do what they are trained to do. VA SAR is somewhat unique in that it's one of the few states in the nation where statewide SAR teams can be mobilized quickly and consistently. They have good infrastructure, good support, and a lot of people.
Adding more people to the mix *right now* who are not VA SAR trained is probably going to slow things down rather than help. The next 24-48 hours are extremely critical and SAR operations must happen as efficiently as possible.
However, stay alert. If this search winds down and Amhurst County starts pulling back resources, then that might be the right time to jump in. I've been involved in that situation before, having served on SAR teams in both WA and MT, and all I can say is that Ken is resourceful enough to survive out there for a pretty long time. Not finding Ken is not an option for me.
Finally, please don't stop distributing this information. My hope is that somehow, somewhere, we can find somebody who ran into Ken since Sunday morning so that we can update is last known location and make this search area smaller. 300 square miles of steep woods out there is a crazy big area to start on.
Again, thanks for your patience, and prayers.
Stay tuned,
Ryan Jordan
President/CEO
Backpacking Light
McKeever
05-01-2009, 01:00
Here's a link to a local tracker that might be able to assist. It might be worth while contacting them if they are not already involved w/ VA SAR.
Rob Speiden
Postal Address: 657 Coal Hollow Road Christiansburg, Virginia 24073
Email Address: trackingschool@yahoo.com (trackingschool@yahoo.com)
Phone Toll Free: (866) 67TRACK = (866) 678-7225
I will also send this to the backpackinglight.com web site.
My wife and I are willing to drive up from the Pearisburg area and assist on Friday if there is an organized search. We have seating for 6 more volunteer if anyone wants to ride up with us.
www.trackingschool.com (http://www.trackingschool.com)
McKeever
05-01-2009, 02:04
I just received word that Rob Speiden is onsite w/ VA SAR.
From what I know of him he is very good at tracking at night by creating contrast of foot prints with lighting that is not possible in the day time. They want to keep the area of concentration pristine which means no bulk searchers until they clear an area. All we can do is wait to see if they put out a call for more boots on the ground at some point.
asaw2513
05-01-2009, 03:02
I am a member of the VA SAR team. Alot of us will be ready by 0700 this morning. We are allso sending a night team up tomorrow to. So they can go though out the night. Also rob is the best tracker I know. He recently just published a book. Any how, I will be heading up soon.
ShakeyLeggs
05-01-2009, 03:49
First off my prayers are with Ken and his family. I have NO doubt that he will be found alive and well.
This is a prime example of how the hiking community come together in times of need. Just like many other times the call has been put out and with out being said it is all hands on deck. I just wish i could be there to assist in any way I can. But all I can do is keep ken in my prayers and hope for a speedy resolution.
NESSMUK is a member of VA SARTI and is turning out at 7:00 at the Buena Vista Overlook. Amherst Co. is running the search. There is a very active group in this area with numerous folks with man tracking experience.
I will have Nessmuk read this thread before he leaves so that he has all your extra info, and a good look at the photo.
If I garner any info about the search during the day, I will post.
There are several other trails in the area, old logging trails and maintained trails both.
Re: the hiking community: I told Nessmuk about the WB posting on a lost hiker several hours before he received official notification through his group. WB is in the forefront again!
My prayers go out to all searchers and Ken.
Frau
The longer this goes on without any good news, the deeper my heart sinks. It's already Friday and there is just now a large organized search when, given the challenged vision of the lost hiker, VA SAR should have been mobilized at least 3 or 4 days ago. I pray he is found safely and soon.
Lone Wolf
05-01-2009, 09:04
He had been lagging behind quite a bit and insisted on being left alone. He did not come with anyone and most hikers were not aware of his vision problems until it was obvious that he, as someone said, "cusses and thrashes through the brush until he finds his way back onto the trail". Ken is VERY independent and in many ways he got quite aggitated when others tried to help him.
hmmmm.......
hmmmm.......
yeah........
Let's watch the blame game and the innuendo here. None of it is helpful. I'm sure there will be a proper assessment by those involved in the search when this whole thing is over.
truthisnature
05-01-2009, 10:17
Prayers and love from PA going out to Ken and all those searching for him.
Let's watch the blame game and the innuendo here. None of it is helpful. I'm sure there will be a proper assessment by those involved in the search when this whole thing is over.
I don't sense that anyone is pointing fingers, just expressing frustration over what appears to be possible faults in a response system. As a member of the emergency services community and a former SAR volunteer I feel we need to review lessons learned to avoid future repeated mistakes. I don't think any individual carries any blame for a tardy response, but the system might need review.
In any event, I am sincere in my desire for a happy ending to this.
Jolly Green Giant
05-01-2009, 10:34
Keep in mind guys, this was a fairly decent hike for most folks, roughly 75 miles. It started and ended at Peaks of Otter or Reeds Gap with two teams, one headed northbound and one headed southbound. Ken was on the southbound team. The southbound team was tasked with dropping off the northbound team, then heading to Reeds Gap and walking south. The northbound team was tasked with picked up the van at Reeds Gap, and picking up the southbound team at the northern point of entry. Of the 18 people who went, only 7 finished. Those who didn’t finish were expected to find their way off the trail on their own and even find their way home if they weren’t going to wait for the group to finish on Tuesday. Everyone hiked at their own pace and at their own discretion. No one was babysitting one another and this was widely understood. This was merely a time for individuals to get out on an AT hike and if we were able to all make it to the same points at the same time, then we’d all be able to participate in the hike together, at least at the end of each day. It was not uncommon for hikers to be hours behind one another. There were even times when some stayed at different shelters simply because that’s where they ended up. This again, was expected. Like most of us, Ken came alone and was expected to look after himself and participate where he could with the group. Not speaking for the group, but I’m not sure if anyone knew he had a visual impairment until we hiked with him for awhile as I don't believe anyone knew Ken personally. Despite this issue being known as the hike progressed, Ken told many people in the group numerous times that he was plenty able to do things on his own and actually got quite agitated when people attempted to help him in any way. Simply put, Ken is an experienced hiker who claimed to have hiked roughly 75% of the AT already and has numerous other hiking accomplishments under his belt. He made it quite clear that he was responsible for himself – as we all were.
Ken was believed to have dropped out over the weekend or merely continued on a slower pace as this was the last time a team member saw him at the Punchbowl Shelter. When the trip concluded late on Tuesday night and everyone gathered at the collective van, those who remained did a head count as best they could and exchanged information on who they knew left the trail. Keep in mind, there was no central point to advise when someone left. Simply, when someone decided to leave, they told whoever was within earshot and hoped for the best. If no one was within earshot, then the individual was still free to go and I think most would assume a general level of responsibility to leave a note on a car or voicemail in this case…unless that person was angry with the others or didn’t have the means to leave this communication. When no one heard from Ken at the end of Tuesday (the end of the trip when everyone who remained got back together), his absence was reported to the local Rangers merely for due diligence and it was believed that he likely found another way home if he indeed had left over the weekend (2-3 days earlier). Telling the Ranger to look out for him was merely the right thing to do, not an acknowledgement that he was indeed missing as others had also left early. For those who know Ken, they know he is fiercely independent and it wasn’t beyond the realm of possibilities that he simply went home or decided to hitch a ride and go to town. Keep in mind, all signs pointed to the fact that he left the trail over the weekend because he continually lagged behind and was otherwise in good condition when a team member coming from the opposite direction passed him with two days remaining on the hike. Those who remained on the trip until the end traveled home on Tuesday night after making a report to the Ranger. Wednesday was spent with folks attempting to track Ken down, see if he made his flight, and touch base with his family to see if they had heard from him. Again, these were not efforts to find a “missing” person, just to locate Ken who was believed to have made his way out on his own and perhaps his cell phone didn’t have any reception or power or perhaps he was still hitching a ride out as others had. As far as I know, no one on the trip was close friends with Ken, so tracking down information outside of his immediate cell phone and e-mail didn’t come easily. Towards the end of Wednesday, it became somewhat apparent that Ken might be missing when efforts were unable to locate anyone who had heard from him. At that point, efforts to contact SAR and law enforcement authorities and even post information on web forums initiated. This was less than 1 day from the end of the hike. It spiraled on Thursday with the word getting out and initial searches were started. Friday will likely involve a much more vast and organized search effort.
Basically, I want to point out that it isn’t helpful for people to jump to conclusions or make incorrect assumptions that something wasn’t done timely. Flatly, this is irresponsible and obnoxious and surely doesn't help anyone. Everyone on the trip was a responsible adult with experience under their belt. As soon as there was a possibility of Ken’s whereabouts being unknown, efforts were made to check with family and anyone else to get the ball rolling. This started immediately at the conclusion of the trip and has continued every day since.
Despite my long narrative, I do not have any intent on being the spokesman for this effort as I do NOT know all the facts nor do I have a personal relationship with Ken. I’m also learning of facts as you do, I just happened to have some greater insight than others in certain areas. As I mentioned, I left the trail early while Ken was still hiking. I only started learning about the concerns with Ken on Wednesday when information was being sent between the people who left early and were already home and the people who just got home and were further checking up on Ken. In the end, everyone is concerned for Ken and no one treated the absence of him lightly.
River Runner
05-01-2009, 14:50
That section of the AT is definitely not easy for a visually impaired hiker. I was with a group in the Hog Camp Gap to Reed's Gap section a few years ago that included a visually impaired hiker. He had a rough time of it and he and a couple of his friends ended the hike early and hitchhiked out.
I hope that Ken is quickly found, and that all turns out well.
Phoenixdadeadhead
05-01-2009, 16:08
I am sure someone has thought of this, but you mentioned he has an Iphone, does he have the tracking APP. I have the G1 which shares a lot of identical apps and one of them allows your friends to go online and see where you are exactly. Just a long shot,but I thought I would throw it out there in hopes that he turns up safe and sound
Nessmuk's report: roughly 150 people searching north and south. Civil Sit Pstrol has a plane in the air for communication. Virtually ALL SAR groups, including dog teams are involved in this search. TV stations are reporting and interviewing. Local EMS groups are involved.
These are HASTY searches, not grid searches. Numerous dog teams searched first, then the SAR, EMS, Park Rangers, and local vollunteers. They are working 24/7 all weekend.
Nessmuk and two other SARTI members hiked Punchbowl to Rice Mt. and then back. Every logging trail and maintained trail was covered south to the James. They are working 24 hrs.
Rob Speiden is one of the incident commanders. Headquarters for the search has been moved to the NFS work center on US 60. The morning shift starts again at the work center at 7 a.m.
Frau
JEEZ:
CIVIL AIR PATROL, not my typos.
Frau
PS Ken's foks have flown down.
Fr.
I give up--FOLKS not foks.
I truly hope there is a good outcome with all this....my thoughts are with his family and friends.
I truly hope there is a good outcome with all this....my thoughts are with his family and friends.
ditto... this is about all anyone not involved in the sar should be offering. like jolly green says, armchair qb's should stay out of it.
Here's a picture from the trip, as posted on BPL
http://cache.backpackinglight.com/backpackinglight/images/items/ken-knight_lg.jpg
My prayers go up for Ken Knight. Sure hoping he is okay.
tommangan
05-02-2009, 03:41
Just thought I would share what I know, as an iPhone user:
1) They are major battery hogs.
2) They must be turned off to save battery power. Failure to do a full shutdown leaves the phone in standby mode, which can run in the battery dry in 24 hours or less.
3) "Location" features like GPS are typically turned off to save battery power.
4) Cellphone range in the backcountry is very limited because it's digital.
At first I thought it was troubling that he never got to a point where he could call anybody on his phone, given that much of the AT is somewhat close to civilization, but he simply could have forgotten to do a complete shutdown and had the battery run dry on him.
Incidentally it's very easy for somebody to be missing four days before it's reported ... some day hikers in the Bay Area a few years back went out in a local park that is very heavily visited, went bushwacking down a ravine and got caught there after dark. That was on a Saturday. Nobody was sure they were missing till Monday when they didn't show up for work, and searches didn't get organized till late Tuesday. Wednesday morning they were found.
It's not all that unusual for people to walk out of the woods after going missing for a week.
Seems I remember a case a year or two ago where a woman was hiking and lost the trail and came walking out of the woods after being gone for over 6 weeks. Its far too early to know how this is going to play out...if he can find water he can stay out there a long time.
freefall
05-02-2009, 07:07
Seems I remember a case a year or two ago where a woman was hiking and lost the trail and came walking out of the woods after being gone for over 6 weeks. Its far too early to know how this is going to play out...if he can find water he can stay out there a long time.
Lets hope someone finds him soon!
modiyooch
05-02-2009, 09:04
I got lost in the punchbowl area on my debut backpacking trip. Basically, what I did was climb to the sound of the cars on skyline drive. Do we even know if he is in the woods, or if he ran into trouble off the trail trying to catch a ride?
I was at the punchbowl area yesterday searching for Ken. All the thru hikers seem to be aware of the situation. This is good. They are certain that he is not on the AT. Right now the search is concentrating on searching the FS roads and the side trails. I'm sure the search will then progress to ares with no trails or roads. Right now the search teams seem to be made up of volunteer sar teams from across the state. This includes people with dogs, people on horseback, etc. They seem to be concentrating on a area of about 11 square miles. If he is not found this weekend I am sure the search will expand to a larger wilder area. WhiteBlaze members with sufficient trail experience should consider their aid during this time. Volunteers should report to the Otter Creek Campground, which is considerably south of punchbowl, or the command center at the intersection of RT 60 and the Blue Ridge Parkway. The Otter Creek Campground is south on the BRP. backpackinglight.com also has contact information for the search.
It's beyond me why they waited four to five days to alert other AT hikers to this. I do hope Ken is found alive.
I was thinking the same thing.
He is in my prayers.
tha
randyg45
05-02-2009, 14:59
I got lost in the punchbowl area on my debut backpacking trip. Basically, what I did was climb to the sound of the cars on skyline drive. Do we even know if he is in the woods, or if he ran into trouble off the trail trying to catch a ride?
Given both his experience level and the level of traffic noise, I too jumped to a fear of injury- either from something like a fall or some evil person taking advantage of his disability- rather than merely being lost.
My prayers go out for him and his family.
Phoenixdadeadhead
05-02-2009, 15:08
Given both his experience level and the level of traffic noise, I too jumped to a fear of injury- either from something like a fall or some evil person taking advantage of his disability- rather than merely being lost.
My prayers go out for him and his family.I hate the thought of either, but the thought that a person on the trail would harm a hiker for financial gain really bothers me. Anyone who would rob a Hiker deserves to be a the mercy of hikers deep in the woods.
ShakeyLeggs
05-02-2009, 18:52
:banana:banana:banana
Just came across twitter Ken has been found alive and well
:banana:banana:banana
@kenknight ken knight has been found. Alive and well, time to party...
:banana:banana:banana
Just came across twitter Ken has been found alive and well
:banana:banana:banana
@kenknight ken knight has been found. Alive and well, time to party...
That is incredible news! Thanks!!!
Phoenixdadeadhead
05-02-2009, 18:55
Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! every time I saw this post the only reason I look was for that news thanks Shakeylegs
He's OK. Walked out w/fire fighters. Lucid. Gotta go.
ShakeyLeggs
05-02-2009, 19:10
bigskyry: @kenknight #kksearch Ken walked out on his own, now en route to Lynchburg hospital. Yes, all really is well!
half a minute ago from TwitterBerry
Ken was found after he set the mountain on fire. He missed the AT turn to John's Hollow and went down Little Rocky Row, then got lost from THAT trail.
Frau
When the fire dept responded to the forest fire they found him status 1.
Frau
The Weasel
05-02-2009, 19:45
http://www.newsadvance.com/lna/news/local/article/missing_at_hiker_found/15648/
Chaco Taco
05-02-2009, 19:51
That is awesome news to come home to. Way to go VA SAR and local authorities.
Jolly Green Giant
05-02-2009, 20:53
Thanks all for your prayers, support, and dedication.
hikingshoes
05-02-2009, 20:54
Great News!i didnt know this guy but everytime i came online id always look up this post to see it he was ok.Very good new.
medicjimr
05-02-2009, 20:57
That is great to hear glad he's Ok the smile from the stretcher is priceless.
Spirit Walker
05-02-2009, 21:17
I'm glad to hear he's okay. When it got to be several days since he was last seen, I didn't really expect him to be foudn alive. I'm glad I was wrong. I hope he posts his story.
Desert Reprobate
05-02-2009, 21:24
Welcome back, Ken. This buds for you.
Thank you VA SAR, all the agencies, everyone involved in the search and those keeping Ken in your thoughts.
Awsome news, so good to hear a happy ending to such a scary story.:banana
FritztheCat
05-02-2009, 22:24
Really glad he's okay! Here's another article:
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/05/rescuers-find-hiker-who-vanished-appalachian-trail
wonderful news!! So happy to hear that he was found and is okay!!
wonderful news!! So happy to hear that he was found and is okay!!
indeed... and hopefully everyone learned a lesson here... but somehow i doubt it
Lone Wolf
05-02-2009, 23:03
indeed... and hopefully everyone learned a lesson here... but somehow i doubt it
especially mr. knight. in the future maybe he won't be so hard headed about hiking alone
Lone Wolf
05-02-2009, 23:23
Ken was found after he set the mountain on fire.
arson?........
Fat Man Walking
05-02-2009, 23:57
Kinda my thoughts as well.
Certainly not to take anything away from his safe return but, was it really necessary to set the woods on fire, considering all of the technology available today for being located when lost.
Perhaps Ryan Jordan and Backpacker Light could provide him with GPS Beacon (or whatever you call those things) or better yet, require him as an "employee" to take one with him when he hikes from now on.
"I was once lost but, now I'm found."
especially mr. knight. in the future maybe he won't be so hard headed about hiking alone
100% agreed.
He should be thankful, humbled, and embarrassed over this ordeal. After refusing help when he thought he didn't need it, he was forced to ask for it when he really did.
We all need to realize that we need others, even those of us (me for one) who often hike alone. I'd like to say that I wouldn't have done what he did, but knowing myself, I probably would have :o.
I'm glad he was found and hope he continues to hike for many more years - but not alone.
freefall
05-03-2009, 00:10
arson?........
I had the same thoughts as well. Then I remembered something from a documentary about Chris McCandless ("The Call Of The Wild" by Ron Lamothe.) Some of the residents said that is the first thing they would do if they needed to be found in the wilderness and couldn't make it out themselves, start a forest fire.
But if you think about it, whats a few hundred trees compared to a human life?
Glad Ken made it out to hike another day!
freefall
05-03-2009, 00:19
Perhaps Ryan Jordan and Backpacker Light could provide him with GPS Beacon (or whatever you call those things) or better yet, require him as an "employee" to take one with him when he hikes from now on.
Hindsight about a hiker that all accounts that know him was an accomplished hiker.
With that said, how many hikers that you know, carry the 10 essentials every time they go out?
1. Map
2. Compass (optionally supplemented with a GPS receiver)
3. Sunglasses and sunscreen
4. Extra food and water
5. Extra clothes
6. Headlamp/flashlight
7. First aid kit
8. Fire starter
9. Matches
10. Knife
WalkingStick75
05-03-2009, 00:29
Just heard on the 1100 news, he has been found. Hungry, but otherwise OK.
Pokey2006
05-03-2009, 00:36
I had the same thoughts as well. Then I remembered something from a documentary about Chris McCandless ("The Call Of The Wild" by Ron Lamothe.) Some of the residents said that is the first thing they would do if they needed to be found in the wilderness and couldn't make it out themselves, start a forest fire.
But if you think about it, whats a few hundred trees compared to a human life?
Glad Ken made it out to hike another day!
Only, this guy wasn't in the wilderness. He was a mile from the road, according to the news report.
tommangan
05-03-2009, 00:38
I feel redeemed for having said hikers often show up after a week.
If only my stock market calls had gone so well.
I will say this: those without a fundamental disability like legal blindness have a hard time comprehending the intense need to be independent and not a burden on anybody else.
Clearly Ken took it too far this time but it no doubt served him well a zillion times right up until it didn't anymore.
I'm legally blind in one eye and wouldn't want to be out in the woods with what little I can see with it. But if something ever happens to the good one, good luck keeping me off the trail.
freefall
05-03-2009, 00:48
Only, this guy wasn't in the wilderness. He was a mile from the road, according to the news report.
As far as he knew, he was. Would most hikers know when they are a mile from a road?
Unless it is in an "above treeline" area probably not. Trees do a lot of insulating in regards to sound, etc....
This is fantastic news. I can't wait until Ken writes about this ordeal.
Do you think he realized so many folks were searching the area close to where he was found? Maybe that's what made him decide to start the signal fire?
He was, in retrospect, damned lucky the fire didn't get him.
Haven't read anything yet about the fire--may we assume it got extinguished?
mweinstone
05-03-2009, 01:06
a man was lost and now is found. kinda like me .sep he aint got bearpaw. or jesus ill bet.
Some of the residents said that is the first thing they would do if they needed to be found in the wilderness and couldn't make it out themselves, start a forest fire.
But if you think about it, whats a few hundred trees compared to a human life?
I've seen several examples of people starting wildfires when they got lost, from the Boundary Waters to Alaska. Sometimes they do it on purpose, sometimes their warming or signal fires got away. The trouble is a "little forest fire" might get to be giant thousands-of-acres fire! The odds are good, though, that if McCandless had lit a wildfire he would have been found.
Another common cause of fires is people burning toilet paper. Just something to think about. ;)
Shutterbug
05-03-2009, 01:22
I've seen several examples of people starting wildfires when they got lost, from the Boundary Waters to Alaska. Sometimes they do it on purpose, sometimes their warming or signal fires got away. The trouble is a "little forest fire" might get to be giant thousands-of-acres fire! The odds are good, though, that if McCandless had lit a wildfire he would have been found.
Another common cause of fires is people burning toilet paper. Just something to think about. ;)
I wonder why he didn't carry a SPOT? If he had carried a SPOT, he would have been found quickly.
Five Bears
05-03-2009, 01:29
Read the full updated version of the story on The News & Advance website. It may answer some of your questions. No one here is considering this arson.
http://www.newsadvance.com/lna/news/local/article/missing_at_hiker_found/15648/
And I have to say, the writer here is brilliant. :cool:
freefall
05-03-2009, 01:37
I wonder why he didn't carry a SPOT? If he had carried a SPOT, he would have been found quickly.
Do you carry one? Just askin....
Pokey2006
05-03-2009, 01:43
I've seen several examples of people starting wildfires when they got lost, from the Boundary Waters to Alaska. Sometimes they do it on purpose, sometimes their warming or signal fires got away. The trouble is a "little forest fire" might get to be giant thousands-of-acres fire! The odds are good, though, that if McCandless had lit a wildfire he would have been found.
Another common cause of fires is people burning toilet paper. Just something to think about. ;)
Starting a fire in the bush of Alaska is a little different than starting a fire a mile from a road in Virginia. This shouldn't be encouraged as something hikers should do when lost on the AT.
NH would probably charge this guy for the cost of his rescue. I would disagree with that. However, if that fire caused any property damage, I would certainly think he should be charged for THAT.
Shutterbug
05-03-2009, 01:44
Do you carry one? Just askin....
Yes I do.
In fact, you can see one of the hikes I made last week here:
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?&glId=0tLlE23uHHrLnyvAqgXHzKtqhP5XpPu7f
It shows up best if you use the "Hybrid" view.
Ignore the last few tracks. I forgot to turn the spot off when I came off of Mt. Wrightson.
freefall
05-03-2009, 02:05
Starting a fire in the bush of Alaska is a little different than starting a fire a mile from a road in Virginia. This shouldn't be encouraged as something hikers should do when lost on the AT.
NH would probably charge this guy for the cost of his rescue. I would disagree with that. However, if that fire caused any property damage, I would certainly think he should be charged for THAT.
I agree it absolutely should not be encouraged! But as an absolute last resort....
And it sounds like he had started a small signal fire, knowing that people were searching for him but then it got out of control.
You keep saying he was only a mile from the road. He did not know that as most hikers would not know. This isn't I-95 or anything close but a state road in rural VA.
I'm not saying there are not things he could have done to minimize this situation, but most hikers do not do the minimum to keep themselves safe.
freefall
05-03-2009, 02:07
Yes I do.
In fact, you can see one of the hikes I made last week here:
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?&glId=0tLlE23uHHrLnyvAqgXHzKtqhP5XpPu7f
It shows up best if you use the "Hybrid" view.
Ignore the last few tracks. I forgot to turn the spot off when I came off of Mt. Wrightson.
Cool. I've heard mixed reviews about the SPOT.
Have you used it in thick forest settings yet? That is the complaint I have heard- it does not work in thick canopy.
River Runner
05-03-2009, 02:29
Great news that Ken has been found!
especially mr. knight. in the future maybe he won't be so hard headed about hiking alone
pretty much what i was thinking. it might be interesting to hear what he has to say about his ordeal and lessons learned
GLAD he is alive but very sad at the tremendous expense brought on by all this. Virginia should NOT have to pay for fierce independence: an airplane aloft and catered meals for 150 for two days (mentioning only 2 small aspects of this)?
This could have been avoided.
Frau (her usual curmedgeony self)
Lone Wolf
05-03-2009, 07:29
Frau (her usual curmedgeony self)
no. what you say is the damn truth.
MintakaCat
05-03-2009, 07:29
With that said, how many hikers that you know, carry the 10 essentials every time they go out?
1. Map
2. Compass (optionally supplemented with a GPS receiver)
3. Sunglasses and sunscreen
4. Extra food and water
5. Extra clothes
6. Headlamp/flashlight
7. First aid kit
8. Fire starter
9. Matches
10. Knife
In just the short time since I got back into hiking, it's amazing to me how many hikers I meet who can't read a map, and it's their map!
I meet a couple on the Chattooga River back in March that had a book with maps and everything and had no clue where they were going. When they asked me for directions, I showed them in the book where they were.
They had hiked 2 miles in the wrong direction thinking that the book had a typo and that the trail was really on the side of the river they were on.
They then blamed the book for not being clear enough:eek:
After I finished talking to them they took off in the wrong direction! I was not far from where I setup camp so I figured I would wait for them to come back or they would make the additional 2.5 mile hike to the highway. They never came back.
It's one thing to carry a map, but can the hiker understand it? I'm not saying that this guy they found in VA can't read a map. What I am saying is that I'm surprised hikers don't get lost more often, judging from a few that I have meet just within the past few months.
Second guessing Ken is easy to do, but to be completely honest I would burn all of SNP if it meant getting out alive. Only about 20% of people lost in wilderness come out alive (true survival instinct is a rare thing) and Ken did, as a result of his decision to create a fire. The survival instinct often becomes a requirement after earlier poor decisions but come on, how many of us have made those same dumb decisions only ours didn't come back to bite us?
As for it being "true wilderness", I'll bet the nature of the woods changes a lot when you are seriously visually impared.
Lone Wolf
05-03-2009, 08:02
he wasn't "lost" in the wilderness
he wasn't "lost" in the wilderness
Re read my post and maybe you'll actually note my reference to his blindness actually changing what wilderness would be for him. I am not defending his actions leading up to the point of being lost as they were definitely a mistake, but I'm just pointing out that the definition of wilderness might be a bit flexible depending on the hiker.
WalkingStick75
05-03-2009, 08:34
Interesting how this thread turned to "if he had carried Spot". Here we have an editor for backpackerlight.com and he gets lost in Va, either did not carry a map and compass or did not know how to use them and then starts a forest fire. Possibly a backcountry class is needed. Signal fires produce smoke but do not have to be huge fires.
Set a fire or die what would you do , what would you want your kids, or loved ones to do
I'm with Engine on this
TrippinBTM
05-03-2009, 09:12
For reasons I cannot fathom, I just received a phone call from the Ann Arbor (Michigan) newspaper about this. Asked "Is it dangerous to hike the AT" and "Are there many bears and such things," my response was, "No, it is not dangerous. But it can be dangerous to hike it." There will be much hysteria on this; let's just hope this guy is hunkered down somewhere. I was told that the NPS was involved in the search.
The Weasel
Are you Russ E. Boltz? If so, you were quoted:
http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2009/04/ann_arbor_hiker_missing_on_app.html
john gault
05-03-2009, 09:22
This has been great publicity (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/index.html)
Homer&Marje
05-03-2009, 10:16
Great to hear everything turned out fine. Don't know him but Ken seems like a stand up guy that puts everything into not being a blind hiker, but just a hiker.
With that in mind...some more precautions could have been heeded to
jaywalke
05-03-2009, 10:26
especially mr. knight. in the future maybe he won't be so hard headed about hiking alone
So, should people with heart conditions also carry a SPOT/EPIRB or never hike alone again? If they disappeared (which can happen within 100' of the trail), people would come looking for them whether they asked them to or not, and in the process spend taxpayer dollars.
I've hiked with Ken in the past, and I was out there on the search Friday and Saturday. I left base just in time to miss the good news. He's a cantankerous individual, but he is also very tough and resourceful. He made a lot of dumb mistakes, but did the main things correctly: hunker down and attract attention. While SAR would have found him eventually, it was his own actions that led to his rescue.
In the past when I've hiked with him, he also got lost. Then he figured it out, got himself un-lost and beat me to camp. By the time I got there, he was coming back out to look for me. If you want to bar Ken from the woods, you also need to keep everyone with a poor sense of direction home.
I'm as pissed at him as anyone. You have to get in line to kick his ass, and I'll be bringing a staple gun and EPIRB to permanently attach it to him . . . however, this incident also made me look in the mirror. My brother wanted buy me a SPOT for x-mas, and I said, "No, I don't need that." All it would take, however, would be a bad fall out of sight of the trail, and I could be the focus of all these news stories.
Those first stones are heavy, and it's hard to cast them accurately. Sometimes they act like boomerangs.
modiyooch
05-03-2009, 10:40
GLAD he is alive but very sad at the tremendous expense brought on by all this. Virginia should NOT have to pay for fierce independence: an airplane aloft and catered meals for 150 for two days (mentioning only 2 small aspects of this)?
This could have been avoided.
Frau (her usual curmedgeony self) it happens. there's many a hiker that gets pulled out of the gsnp during snow storms in the winter because they insist on winter hiking. And then there are many accomplished winter hikers that don't need to be pulled out during the snow storm I for one don't want someone making that decision for me. I went up and over Mt Washington in the snow in aug against 100% advice not to do so. I am so VERY glad that I was able to consider their concerns, but make my own educated decision. Once the snow cleared, it was picture perfect and an awesome experience.
As far a being found a mile from the road, there have been alot of tragedies where the victim was found near safety. I'm glad that all is well, and we can all count our blessings.
warraghiyagey
05-03-2009, 10:42
:banana:banana:banana
Just came across twitter Ken has been found alive and well
:banana:banana:banana
...
Sweet news! . . . .http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-happy110.gifhttp://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-happy110.gifhttp://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-happy110.gif
Mr. Magoo
05-03-2009, 11:05
Wonderful news, indeed!
I would quickly add, however, that Mr. Knight do some self-reflection on how he hikes in the future and what skills he needs to sharpen.
Lone Wolf
05-03-2009, 11:11
Set a fire or die what would you do , what would you want your kids, or loved ones to do
if i were damn near blind i would have someone hiking in close proximity to me. ego be damned
tommangan
05-03-2009, 11:51
Just to reiterate for the second-guessers: He knew he was lost most likely sometime on Sunday. He was lost all that day and did not signal for help. And all day Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and part of Saturday -- at which point he probably had not eaten in a few days and finally gave in.
I don't know the guy and have no idea how he navigates, but this is what I surmise: much like a pilot flying on instruments, he uses what he can see up close: map and compass, plus dead reckoning as to whether he's on the main trail based on what he can see in the area around his feet.
I'm a slow hiker but otherwise able-bodied... when I'm in a group where one of the organizers insists on having somebody sweep, this person inevitably walks about two paces behind me, which drives me nuts. And I can see just fine.
Suggesting that he take a minder along next time is the kind of thing that only makes sense from the distance provided by a computer screen.
I would burn all of SNP if it meant getting out alive. Only about 20% of people lost in wilderness come out alive...
Really? You would burn all of SNP to the ground? 20% of the people lost in the wilderness come out alive?? Perhaps 20% that have been missing in the wilderness for a week. People often lose their bearings for a while in the wilderness without any ill effects. If a person is prepared (gear, attitude and knowledge) it's not a big deal. The FEAR of getting lost is far more dangerous to a prepared person than actually getting lost. If a prepared person is missing for week it's probably because they've had a serious accident.
I have made mistakes in the boonies too. But mistakes are still mistakes. He didn't have the tools/skills he needed to stay, or get, oriented. And he allowed a signal fire to turn into a wildfire. Two very serious mistakes that cost a vast amount of money, time and stress.
In my opinion the most useful tool he could have had, other than a skilled hiking partner, would have been a GPS, because a good method of preventing the need for rescue is more important than a means to call a rescue. Self-sufficiency is crucial. It would have been very difficult for him to use a map once he had lost track of where he was. A mapping GPS would have shown him where he was on the map.
Polite "second guessing" is important. It helps determine what went wrong and how it can be prevented in the future.
All that said, he's OK because he had what it took to survive for a week and because he lit a signal fire. I'm truly glad he made it out safely.
Shutterbug
05-03-2009, 12:25
Cool. I've heard mixed reviews about the SPOT.
Have you used it in thick forest settings yet? That is the complaint I have heard- it does not work in thick canopy.
I don't want to hijack this thread, so I will start a new one to respond to your questions.
I don't want to hijack this thread, so I will start a new one to respond to your questions.
Already several SPOT threads going
This has been great publicity (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/index.html)
I quit reading and visiting BPL about a year ago. Their print magazine was great, but they rarely published it with any sort of regularity or schedule. I hear they have since quit doing it at all.
As for gear, I'm just burnt out on it. Most of the online magazine and forums were about gear, not hiking. Since I got married and changed my part-time work to have weekends back, I hike quite a bit and don't dwell on gear (much).
Still, I hope Ryan Jordan does well. If you really want to lighten your pack A LOT, BPL is worth looking at.
Ken - I and many others spent Friday, Friday night, and all day Saturday looking for you. I admire your independence and accomplishments in a seeing world with your visual impairments.
I learned from two of your close friends that you have been lost before for three days on logging roads in Maine. I also learned from them that you are prone to falling, losing equipment, and veering off the trail quite frequently. And I gather from this thread that you are somewhat of a mule-headed maverick. :) So am I.
Do you not realize that all people have limitations, regardless of sight? Not knowing and realizing one's own limitations is a recipe for disaster. That is what keeps the SAR business in business.
I saw your parents walking up to the SAR base on the parkway Friday, and it broke my heart to think what they must be going through. Being as you were missing since Sunday, I and your friends realized the possibility was high that there was not going to be a positive outcome, despite all our best efforts.
I and many others continued searching through the night not just for your sake, but for the sake of your parents, family and friends. Do you know how hard it is for a parent not to have closure until a body is found?
Please reconsider your reluctance to accept assistance from friends on the trail who want to help. A little bit of help on the trail beforehand would have averted the tons of resources expended to find you. I'm sorry we did not locate you sooner. And it is ironic that it was your own actions that got you into the situation and eventually your own actions that led to you getting out of the situation.
I would like to know more about your days off the trail in an effort to more effectively search for people in the future. I'm not advocating you give up hiking Ken, just give up your short-sightedness (not the vision kind). In fact, I'd like to hike with you in the future. How about next winter on the AT here?
MintakaCat
05-03-2009, 13:07
Sarman hit the nail on the head. It's funny that no one over at the BPL web site is saying that.
Lone Wolf
05-03-2009, 13:10
Ken - I and many others spent Friday, Friday night, and all day Saturday looking for you. I admire your independence and accomplishments in a seeing world with your visual impairments.
I learned from two of your close friends that you have been lost before for three days on logging roads in Maine. I also learned from them that you are prone to falling, losing equipment, and veering off the trail quite frequently. And I gather from this thread that you are somewhat of a mule-headed maverick. :) So am I.
Do you not realize that all people have limitations, regardless of sight? Not knowing and realizing one's own limitations is a recipe for disaster. That is what keeps the SAR business in business.
I saw your parents walking up to the SAR base on the parkway Friday, and it broke my heart to think what they must be going through. Being as you were missing since Sunday, I and your friends realized the possibility was high that there was not going to be a positive outcome, despite all our best efforts.
I and many others continued searching through the night not just for your sake, but for the sake of your parents, family and friends. Do you know how hard it is for a parent not to have closure until a body is found?
Please reconsider your reluctance to accept assistance from friends on the trail who want to help. A little bit of help on the trail beforehand would have averted the tons of resources expended to find you. I'm sorry we did not locate you sooner. And it is ironic that it was your own actions that got you into the situation and eventually your own actions that led to you getting out of the situation.
I would like to know more about your days off the trail in an effort to more effectively search for people in the future. I'm not advocating you give up hiking Ken, just give up your short-sightedness (not the vision kind). In fact, I'd like to hike with you in the future. How about next winter on the AT here?
that's it in a nutshell. thread over
Maybe you should copy my post to BPL if no one there sees it the same way.
Ken - I and many others spent Friday, Friday night, and all day Saturday looking for you. I admire your independence and accomplishments in a seeing world with your visual impairments.
I learned from two of your close friends that you have been lost before for three days on logging roads in Maine. I also learned from them that you are prone to falling, losing equipment, and veering off the trail quite frequently. And I gather from this thread that you are somewhat of a mule-headed maverick. :) So am I.
Do you not realize that all people have limitations, regardless of sight? Not knowing and realizing one's own limitations is a recipe for disaster. That is what keeps the SAR business in business.
I saw your parents walking up to the SAR base on the parkway Friday, and it broke my heart to think what they must be going through. Being as you were missing since Sunday, I and your friends realized the possibility was high that there was not going to be a positive outcome, despite all our best efforts.
I and many others continued searching through the night not just for your sake, but for the sake of your parents, family and friends. Do you know how hard it is for a parent not to have closure until a body is found?
Please reconsider your reluctance to accept assistance from friends on the trail who want to help. A little bit of help on the trail beforehand would have averted the tons of resources expended to find you. I'm sorry we did not locate you sooner. And it is ironic that it was your own actions that got you into the situation and eventually your own actions that led to you getting out of the situation.
I would like to know more about your days off the trail in an effort to more effectively search for people in the future. I'm not advocating you give up hiking Ken, just give up your short-sightedness (not the vision kind). In fact, I'd like to hike with you in the future. How about next winter on the AT here?
Well Said!!! Very well said!! I couldn't agree more!!
I do not want to post on BPL as you have to identify yourself in the account setup. I prefer to remain anonymous
MintakaCat
05-03-2009, 13:28
I do not want to post on BPL as you have to identify yourself in the account setup. I prefer to remain anonymous
Just skip it because if you do post over there you might get a reply like this one on their form talking about comments on another web site in Lynchburg:
Comments you might expect from the Lynchburg, VA online troll community....
It appears the ultimate evil to those people is costing the government one dime. And I'm sure they don't ever use road, or airports, or hospitals, by the way. And if they were stranded in the woods lost, they'd probably just martyr themselves before costing anyone else any money rescuing them.
(Oh, but unnecessary wars on the other side of the globe that take up 60 percent of our national budget? SIGN THEM UP!)
Really, lost hikers should just die. A human life isn't worth the money of mounting a search effort.
Sick huh?
Everyone asks why not gps, spot or whatever to get this guy 1 mile to a road---read the BPL mantra--- it's the whole carry 5 lb total thing that has been beat to death here before, then with a nice disclaimer that it is not for everyone (but the bosses disclaimer does not stop this guy from acting stupid, more than once)
tommangan
05-03-2009, 14:20
thanks, SARMAN -- sooner or later somebody speaking from knowledge and experience sews up the issue on one of these threads and puts the keyboard badasses to shame.
The folks at BPL are rooting for the survival of somebody they know ... it's not just Lost Hiker No. 14,375 to them. Tomorrow they can hash out what their pal did right or wrong.
warraghiyagey
05-03-2009, 14:50
All the second-guessers and surmisers are ****tards plain and simple. . . a fellow hiker was found alive. . . . . that's all we really need to know. . . . it's a good thing. . . :sun:sun
All the second-guessers and surmisers are ****tards plain and simple. . . a fellow hiker was found alive. . . . . that's all we really need to know. . . . it's a good thing. . . :sun:sun
DITTO! I'm glad Ken was found and I salute all the volunteers and SAR who participated with the search.
saimyoji
05-03-2009, 15:08
All the second-guessers and surmisers are ****tards plain and simple. . . a fellow hiker was found alive. . . . . that's all we really need to know. . . . it's a good thing. . . :sun:sun
dude......whats up with that crazy email addy at the bottom of all your posts? its all numbers.....whats that, like, a gov't email or something? :confused:
vamelungeon
05-03-2009, 15:45
Anyone who thinks starting a fire in the forest is an acceptable way to get help if lost should keep in mind that people are killed every year by wildfires, and if a fire you set intentionally happens to kill someone, you can and should be held accountable. This fire DID "get away" from the guy who set it. As has been noted, this situation could have easily been avoided but for pride.
Really? You would burn all of SNP to the ground? 20% of the people lost in the wilderness come out alive?? Perhaps 20% that have been missing in the wilderness for a week. People often lose their bearings for a while in the wilderness without any ill effects. If a person is prepared (gear, attitude and knowledge) it's not a big deal. The FEAR of getting lost is far more dangerous to a prepared person than actually getting lost. If a prepared person is missing for week it's probably because they've had a serious accident.
I have made mistakes in the boonies too. But mistakes are still mistakes. He didn't have the tools/skills he needed to stay, or get, oriented. And he allowed a signal fire to turn into a wildfire. Two very serious mistakes that cost a vast amount of money, time and stress.
In my opinion the most useful tool he could have had, other than a skilled hiking partner, would have been a GPS, because a good method of preventing the need for rescue is more important than a means to call a rescue. Self-sufficiency is crucial. It would have been very difficult for him to use a map once he had lost track of where he was. A mapping GPS would have shown him where he was on the map.
Polite "second guessing" is important. It helps determine what went wrong and how it can be prevented in the future.
All that said, he's OK because he had what it took to survive for a week and because he lit a signal fire. I'm truly glad he made it out safely.
In answer to the first question, yes I would burn all of it to the ground if that is what it took to survive. But, that misses the point of what I was saying. Survival instinct is not equal across the populace, some of us have it and some don't. The 20% figure is from figures pertaining to hikers lost in true wilderness, which we really don't have in the east outside of Maine. But, as I stated, Ken would probably define wilderness a bit different from the rest of us. If not, maybe he should, and that might be the crux of this entire situation...;)
Man was lost for 7 days and blind. I think after 7 days he WAS acting as a last resort by starting a fire. Good for him, he wasn't just board of waiting it was 7 days later. Yea he should have a spot or something. I don't know if a gps would help or hurt him because it might lead him over a clift or into a river, where most fatalities occure in the wild. He needs something he can send a signal from if he gets to a last resort with a dedicated say 24 hrs of not checking in he should "push" the button.
sarman, et alia--
I have posted numerous pieces while you and Nessmuk were out with the two friends Saturday, and Friday as well ( you and I share an alma mater). Nessmuk (the nurse) and I both thank you for your succinct post.
I completely support the handicapped being all they can be, doing all they can do. I also completely support my right NOT to have to pay for this.
If Ken was hiking as part of his employment, the local EMS agencies can charge the employer for the rescue (a recently passed statute). I know the forestry services can charge for firefighting. The all-night rain put the fire out, so that fee should be minimal. All searchers who requested lodging, though, received lodging. All meals were catered. MANY volunteers paid their own expenses.
We volunteers should NOT have to stand on the street corner with buckets in our hands, asking for donations, to pay for an event that had happened before (in Maine), and will happen again, if Ken does not rethink his impact on the surrounding sparsely-populated and severely under-funded localities, and, to a lesser extent, on the forest (he set MY back yard on fire).
BPL will never get my business (who cares, right?) after the post quoted above, made in response to folks concerns about the cost of this 'adventure'.
As I posted before, I am happy Ken is safe and sound. An experienced hiker is a RESPONSIBLE hiker, though. The events of the last few days do NOT reflect a responsible attitude toward people or environment. The volunteers spent time and money to find Ken safe and sound. Was he as concerned about them?
Frau
In answer to the first question, yes I would burn all of it to the ground if that is what it took to survive. But, that misses the point of what I was saying. Survival instinct is not equal across the populace, some of us have it and some don't. The 20% figure is from figures pertaining to hikers lost in true wilderness, which we really don't have in the east outside of Maine. But, as I stated, Ken would probably define wilderness a bit different from the rest of us. If not, maybe he should, and that might be the crux of this entire situation...;)
Personally, I wouldn't burn down SNP to save myself if I got lost. I'd like to think my life is worth more than the Park, but it isn't.
As far as 80% of the hikers dying after getting lost in true wilderness, I don't believe it. An easy example is the CDT. Few if any thru-hikers avoid getting lost in true wilderness several times during the hike.
The crux of the situation to me is personal responsibility.
warraghiyagey
05-03-2009, 17:41
I completely support the handicapped being all they can be, doing all they can do. I also completely support my right NOT to have to pay for this.
If Ken was hiking as part of his employment, the local EMS agencies can charge the employer for the rescue (a recently passed statute). I know the forestry services can charge for firefighting. The all-night rain put the fire out, so that fee should be minimal. All searchers who requested lodging, though, received lodging. All meals were catered. MANY volunteers paid their own expenses.
Frau
Sorry to shorten your post Frau and I agree with you competely. The rescue operation was fantastic. . . it is great that this had a happy ending. . . . and I can't imagine anything beyond, he is alive and well and thank you so much to the rescue services. . . . :sun:sun
Ramkitten
05-03-2009, 17:44
This is sort of an "aside," but since the cost of rescue and whether or not the rescue-ee should pay for it was mentioned or at least alluded to a few times here, I thought I'd post this link to the recently-published position of the National Association for Search And Rescue (NASAR).
http://www.nasar.org/nasar/downloads/No_Bill_for_SAR_Position_Statement_-_NASAR_4-2009.pdf
NASAR's position is in accordance with that of the Mountain Rescue Association, the Colorado Search and Rescue Board, the International Association of Dive Rescue Specialists, the United States Coast Guard and the National Park Service. Not to mention myself and most of the SAR volunteers that I personally know.
That has nothing to do with finding fault or not. Just talking dollars.
Anyhow, I too am very, very glad Ken was found safe. (Who wouldn't be?) And I too would have preferred that he not have had to start a forest fire to do so. But this is definitely a good learning opportunity, not just for him but for everyone who talks about it. There are a number of other ways to signal rescuers, both with technology and without.
warraghiyagey
05-03-2009, 17:46
This is sort of an "aside," but since the cost of rescue and whether or not the rescue-ee should pay for it was mentioned or at least alluded to a few times here, I thought I'd post this link to the recently-published position of the National Association for Search And Rescue (NASAR).
http://www.nasar.org/nasar/downloads/No_Bill_for_SAR_Position_Statement_-_NASAR_4-2009.pdf
NASAR's position is in accordance with that of the Mountain Rescue Association, the Colorado Search and Rescue Board, the International Association of Dive Rescue Specialists, the United States Coast Guard and the National Park Service. Not to mention myself and most of the SAR volunteers that I personally know.
That has nothing to do with finding fault or not. Just talking dollars.
Anyhow, I too am very, very glad Ken was found safe. (Who wouldn't be?) And I too would have preferred that he not have had to start a forest fire to do so. But this is definitely a good learning opportunity, not just for him but for everyone who talks about it. There are a number of other ways to signal rescuers, both with technology and without.
Nice post. :welcome Ramkitten. :sun:sun:sun
Personally, I wouldn't burn down SNP to save myself if I got lost. I'd like to think my life is worth more than the Park, but it isn't.
As far as 80% of the hikers dying after getting lost in true wilderness, I don't believe it. An easy example is the CDT. Few if any thru-hikers avoid getting lost in true wilderness several times during the hike.
The crux of the situation to me is personal responsibility.
You are completely missing my point regarding survival instinct...Let go of the burning the park thing and take in the big picture. And there is LITTLE TRUE WILDERNESS on a CDT thru hike. For Pete's sake how many times do I need to emphasize that a blind hiker might have a different definition of wilderness? The point I was making, for the last time, is that in order to survive sometimes you need to go to extremes and most people don't have that instinct. Ken didn't try to set the woods on fire, he was attempting a signal fire that got away from him, in part I'm sure because of his handicap. As for his obstinance regarding accepting help, sometimes people allow pride to interfere with sound judgement.
I have not one time defended his poor judgement, only saying he saved himself by lighting that fire and if it came to that point I would have done the same thing without a moments hesitation.
warraghiyagey
05-03-2009, 17:54
only saying he saved himself by lighting that fire and if it came to that point I would have done the same thing without a moments hesitation.
Agreed.. . . .
SassyWindsor
05-03-2009, 19:11
if i were damn near blind i would have someone hiking in close proximity to me. ego be damned
Nail hit squarely on head.
Just to reiterate for the second-guessers: He knew he was lost most likely sometime on Sunday. He was lost all that day and did not signal for help. And all day Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and part of Saturday -- at which point he probably had not eaten in a few days and finally gave in........
As earlier stated he has had previous experience with wandering to the point of being lost. If he's not to take LW's advice, maybe a PLB (personal locator beacon) should be carried. If he's short on cash maybe the SAR teams, Firefighters, etc will chip in. Would save money and resources, natural and financial.
Homer&Marje
05-03-2009, 19:33
This is sort of an "aside," but since the cost of rescue and whether or not the rescue-ee should pay for it was mentioned or at least alluded to a few times here, I thought I'd post this link to the recently-published position of the National Association for Search And Rescue (NASAR).
http://www.nasar.org/nasar/downloads/No_Bill_for_SAR_Position_Statement_-_NASAR_4-2009.pdf
That has nothing to do with finding fault or not. Just talking dollars.
.
I see all these arguments for SAR recently with regards to this issue, and the latest issue in the White Mountains with the newly adopted "Charge for SAR" in Negligent cases in New Hampshire.
And not to take away from your post, but to highlight the problem we are facing here. What is human life worth?
To me, my life is worth everything, to progressive people further from me it becomes worth less. Such is human nature, call it a character flaw.
But why....WHY!? Do we fund SAR projects, expect them to work for us when we need it...and then bitch about how much it costs...or...just talk dollars.
Sorry....I could care less if we do or do not fund SAR projects, just let me know what's going to happen so I can prepare. Not gonna be too many UL'ers if they have to carry extra food:rolleyes: And a SPOT, and maps..haha, and a compass....you know..those things we carry for survival.
(I do not carry a spot, all of the rest, yes.)
Life is a gift from God. It is precious and priceless, and that is why so many people put so much into the SAR effort. Many situations I see, I realize it could easily have been me in the ringer. Mistakes get made. Sometimes, even when we learn from them, we make them again.
I'll wait for the dust to settle before putting deeper thought to pen. Still recovering from the short-term effects of gravity on an aged, overweight body.
... there is LITTLE TRUE WILDERNESS on a CDT thru hike.
I respectfully disagree. Along the way is the Aldo Leopold Wilderness, South San Juan Wilderness, Weminuche Wilderness, La Garita Wilderness, Mt. Zirkel Wilderness, Popo Agie Wilderness, Fitzpatrick Wilderness, Scapegoat Wilderness, Bob Marshall Wilderness, Gila Wilderness, Great Bear Wilderness and the Anaconda-Pintler Wilderness.
People don't die anything like 80% of the time when getting lost even in the deepest wilderness. Most people I know that have been exploring the Alaska backcountry for years have been lost at one time or another, and that includes myself. It's dangerous to believe getting lost is that dangerous, because panic is what often kills people, or causes them to make other poor decisions, like starting an unnecessary wildfire. (I'm not saying Ken did on purpose.) I think other relevant points have already been made.
jaywalke
05-03-2009, 20:20
Ken - I and many others spent Friday, Friday night, and all day Saturday looking for you. <snip>
As did I. By your argument, neither Bill Irwin nor Granny Gatewood should have done the AT. They should have spent more time thinking about others' feelings, rather than doing what they wanted with their lives. As I recall, she was lost and the subject of several searches, and I think it would have been a very interesting argument if you or anyone had tried to get her to carry a beacon if the technology had been available. Also, no diabetics, people allergic to bee stings, or the obese should hike the AT.
Let's take these other arguments one at a time.
1. The argument about Ken's parents is completely spurious. I know them, and they are well aware of how hopelessly headstrong their son is. Regardless of the dynamic, any discussion about how his risks affect them is a family matter, and none of your (or my) business. If you think it is, please publish your mom's phone number so that we can all give her a call and discuss your successes and failures as a progeny, and how much you consider her feelings in your daily life. ("He never calls, he never writes, and when am I going to see some grandchildren?")
2. SAR is volunteer for a reason. If you don't like it, you are free to walk away. Most searches involve someone who has pulled a dick move of some sort, so if you can't accept that you may be more fulfilled spending your time elsewhere. I made the choice to walk away and I am much happier about it. If you have stayed, you deserve all the props in the world, but the tradeoff is that you don't get to complain about it outside of SAR people. It affects the team's image, which I think you know. Your desire to remain anonymous is telling.
The rest of these are not in response to your post, but to the thread in general
3. Anyone with a disability such as a heart condition should never hike alone again (Lone Wolf) because it might affect other people. Sorry, but society is more important than you. "Hike your own hike" has been rescinded. Did someone mention that BPL was circling the wagons around one of their own? Physician, heal thyself . . .
4. I also live in Virginia and pay a buttload of taxes. I have no problem with paying the costs for a search like this. If it bothers you, just imagine that it's all coming out of my share.
5. For those who have suggested a "minder," are you volunteering? It's hard enough to find someone to hike with at all, let alone to find someone to hike at a 1/mph or less pace. A suggestion to "hike with someone," while easy to make, is the equivalent of saying "stay home."
tommangan
05-03-2009, 21:10
I think I'd like to put this on a T-shirt: Life is an accumulation of bad moves that made sense at the time.
I respectfully disagree. Along the way is the Aldo Leopold Wilderness, South San Juan Wilderness, Weminuche Wilderness, La Garita Wilderness, Mt. Zirkel Wilderness, Popo Agie Wilderness, Fitzpatrick Wilderness, Scapegoat Wilderness, Bob Marshall Wilderness, Gila Wilderness, Great Bear Wilderness and the Anaconda-Pintler Wilderness.
People don't die anything like 80% of the time when getting lost even in the deepest wilderness. Most people I know that have been exploring the Alaska backcountry for years have been lost at one time or another, and that includes myself. It's dangerous to believe getting lost is that dangerous, because panic is what often kills people, or causes them to make other poor decisions, like starting an unnecessary wildfire. (I'm not saying Ken did on purpose.) I think other relevant points have already been made.
Dude, let it go...
Dude, let it go...
why? so you can get in the last word? :rolleyes: colter's posts make more sense than yours. PLUS i think he has you on the experience side of the equation.
Jester2000
05-03-2009, 21:22
. . .And there is LITTLE TRUE WILDERNESS on a CDT thru hike. . .
Dude, let it go...
Oh, I don't know. I'd be kind of curious to know from whence you've drawn your conclusions about true wilderness on the CDT. I mean, if you were using that to refute someone's point or their level of experience with wilderness, then it's fair to ask, right? And if you're putting it in caps, I have to believe that you feel strongly about the statement, so why let it go? Unless "let it go" is a euphemism for "oops, I was wrong" . . .
It's not exactly like this thread is on topic anymore . . .
No, absolutely not so I can have the last word. Doesn't mean jack $%& to me one way or the other! My point, initially was taken completely out of context by him and he continued to ride that rail into the ground. As for the experience thing...what do you know about my experience one way or the other?
As for the 80% figure, I extracted that from a book on survival. It appears to be inaccurate (maybe 80% survive and 20% die would be closer to what this study shows) http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1080-6032&volume=015&issue=01&page=0011 as I turned this info up while following up on what Colter had to say.
I have no problem admitting I'm wrong but just because CONGRESS designates something a wilderness don't make it so...
By definition, Websters defines wilderness as such -
wil·der·ness http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?wilder03.wav=wilderness%27)Pronunciation: \ˈwil-dər-nəs\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English, from wildern wild, from Old English wilddēoren of wild beastsDate:13th century 1 a (1): a tract or region uncultivated and uninhabited by human beings (2): an area essentially undisturbed by human activity together with its naturally developed life community b: an empty or pathless area or region <in remote wildernesses of space groups of nebulae are found — G. W. Gray †1960> c: a part of a garden devoted to wild growth2obsolete : wild or uncultivated state3 a: a confusing multitude or mass : an indefinitely great number or quantity <I would not have given it for a wilderness of monkeys — Shakespeare> b: a bewildering situation <those moral wildernesses of civilized life — Norman Mailer>
That is pretty vague, but what I mean by TRUE WILDERNESS is just this: Any uninhabited area that lacks roads or other development and would take a minimum of 5 days to cross on foot. Now, I know that last part isn't in any definition other than my own, but it would be how I define wilderness and as such there isn't much to be found here in the lower 48.
I am not saying Colter is wrong, just that we disagree on the definition.
No, absolutely not so I can have the last word. Doesn't mean jack $%& to me one way or the other! My point, initially was taken completely out of context by him and he continued to ride that rail into the ground. As for the experience thing...what do you know about my experience one way or the other?
As for the 80% figure, I extracted that from a book on survival. It appears to be inaccurate (maybe 80% survive and 20% die would be closer to what this study shows) http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1080-6032&volume=015&issue=01&page=0011 as I turned this info up while following up on what Colter had to say.
I have no problem admitting I'm wrong but just because CONGRESS designates something a wilderness don't make it so...
I don't know about your experience, but I do know colter is for real, has an AT thru-hike and has hiked 1,000 alone across Alaska. How about you?
http://www.bucktrack.com/Alaska_Photos.html
I don't know about your experience, but I do know colter is for real, has an AT thru-hike and has hiked 1,000 alone across Alaska. How about you?
http://www.bucktrack.com/Alaska_Photos.html
Doesn't approach that, maybe 1200+ miles total in Michigan, the Appalachians, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana and Canada over 30 years. Not including dozens of long backcountry hunting trips in many states over the years. My point, however, was that you guessed I was a noob...not the case.
I love thread drift. :D
gotta keep the thread going until ken can speak for himself! :D
it would be much more interesting to hear what happened from the horse's mouth vs. all these keyboard specialists :)
gotta keep the thread going until ken can speak for himself! :D
it would be much more interesting to hear what happened from the horse's mouth vs. all these keyboard specialists :)
Do we know if Ken frequents WhiteBlaze?
Do we know if Ken frequents WhiteBlaze?
don't know, but hopefully he will speak up somewhere that we can at least link to
Ramkitten
05-03-2009, 22:41
I see all these arguments for SAR recently with regards to this issue, and the latest issue in the White Mountains with the newly adopted "Charge for SAR" in Negligent cases in New Hampshire.
And not to take away from your post, but to highlight the problem we are facing here. What is human life worth?
To me, my life is worth everything, to progressive people further from me it becomes worth less. Such is human nature, call it a character flaw.
But why....WHY!? Do we fund SAR projects, expect them to work for us when we need it...and then bitch about how much it costs...or...just talk dollars.
Sorry....I could care less if we do or do not fund SAR projects, just let me know what's going to happen so I can prepare. Not gonna be too many UL'ers if they have to carry extra food:rolleyes: And a SPOT, and maps..haha, and a compass....you know..those things we carry for survival.
(I do not carry a spot, all of the rest, yes.)
I THINK we're agreeing. I'm not sure. But just to clarify--I was saying that most people in Search & Rescue--and NASAR and other agencies--including myself DON'T advocate charging rescue-ees for their rescue. Also, I wasn't trying to be cold by saying my post was "just about dollars." All I meant was to address the issue of having to pay, and I just happened to see the NASAR statement earlier today.
Personally, I hate the whole fault-finding thing. That's not why I do SAR at all. And when I'm involved in a mission that has a happy ending, there's no better feeling. Thoughts of what the "victim" (aka subject, rescue-ee) may have done wrong or could have done differently don't usually enter my mind. I just love the looks on the faces of family and friends--and the person we helped out--when things turn out like they did for Ken here.
So I just wanted to be sure you all knew that's what I meant.
K ... sorry for the "aside."
Oh yeah! And thanks for the :welcomewarraghiyagey! :)
Deb
warraghiyagey
05-03-2009, 22:46
Oh yeah! And thanks for the :welcomewarraghiyagey! :)
Deb
Yupperdoodle. . . :sun:sun
I THINK we're agreeing. I'm not sure.
Deb
Don't think too hard there... homer is a little lost himself :D
great post and approach to sar. thanks for your service
Pokey2006
05-03-2009, 23:23
I love thread drift. :D
I love watching pissing contests.
Ramkitten
05-03-2009, 23:30
I love watching pissing contests.
Most conversations drift. I kind of think it's interesting to see where things go. Why not?
Matteroo
05-03-2009, 23:33
since we're not on topic at all, I'd like to chime in that I've followed colter on here and his website and am immensely impressed with his pursuits (and sagacious advice/tips here and there) (obviously my subjective opinion).
Obviously his CDT hike wasn't the 1,000 alaskan bush miles, but have you been to most of new mexico or wyoming? I can't speak to Colorado or Montana but for NM and Wyom, there ain't shi* for many many miles!! Sure there isn't much (read: ANY) "true wilderness" (5 days on foot (and I'll leave open my definition of what 5 days on foot is so I can rebuke any statement of yours about where such wilderness may be in the 48)) in the lower 48 but don't kid yourself that when you say that the CDT doesn't have any real wilderness most people will disagree with you. Seems like you'd frequently be on a lengthy explanation when talking about wilderness with folks if you didn't make it clear from the onset what wilderness is to you.
no you're not a noob, for sure, but.. whew, its like correcting people who talk about having had a cold ice cream or beer cause your idea of 'actually cold' is -335 kelvin. okieeee...........
GrubbyJohn
05-04-2009, 00:46
he was found sat. according to bplite
The Weasel
05-04-2009, 01:03
While those who think that people who are rescued should pay the expense if they could somehow have avoided it, we live in a culture in which government and many private organizations exist to make sure that everyone has a reasonable sense of protection and safety. While in some cases there may be a fair argument for people who knowingly take chances that are extremely risky - extreme sports is one such example - in few parts of society do we say, "If you're in trouble, reach for your checkbook."
That's why Fire Departments are sometimes called "Fire Companies." They were started by private citizens who paid for the service, and later, by fire insurance companies. If your house was on fire, and you didn't pay your "subscription" or have insurance with a particular insurance company, the fire fighters would not help save your home, even if they were present to protect your neighbor, who was a part of their group. That changed for obvious reasons, and public safety is there for all our benefit, even when - as most of who, being imperfect, do - we make mistakes or are overly optimistic.
So before you start condemning this guy, or calling for a pound of flesh for something that he could have avoided by being a nice little handicapper and stayed in his bedrom (I'm handicapped, too, and mine affects my hiking experience in many ways, as well, so I'm familiar with the insensitivity of many to handicapped hikers), instead of seeking - like many of us - adventure, remember the many ways that you are protected by all of your friends and neighbors - most of whom you never meet - through taxes we all pay for services we hope we never need. That's a good thing.
Those who disagree should first read John Donne's statement; it says it all.
http://www.skrause.org/reading/donne.shtml
TW
As did I. By your argument, neither Bill Irwin nor Granny Gatewood should have done the AT. They should have spent more time thinking about others' feelings, rather than doing what they wanted with their lives. As I recall, she was lost and the subject of several searches, and I think it would have been a very interesting argument if you or anyone had tried to get her to carry a beacon if the technology had been available. Also, no diabetics, people allergic to bee stings, or the obese should hike the AT.
Let's take these other arguments one at a time.
1. The argument about Ken's parents is completely spurious. I know them, and they are well aware of how hopelessly headstrong their son is. Regardless of the dynamic, any discussion about how his risks affect them is a family matter, and none of your (or my) business. If you think it is, please publish your mom's phone number so that we can all give her a call and discuss your successes and failures as a progeny, and how much you consider her feelings in your daily life. ("He never calls, he never writes, and when am I going to see some grandchildren?")
2. SAR is volunteer for a reason. If you don't like it, you are free to walk away. Most searches involve someone who has pulled a dick move of some sort, so if you can't accept that you may be more fulfilled spending your time elsewhere. I made the choice to walk away and I am much happier about it. If you have stayed, you deserve all the props in the world, but the tradeoff is that you don't get to complain about it outside of SAR people. It affects the team's image, which I think you know. Your desire to remain anonymous is telling.
The rest of these are not in response to your post, but to the thread in general
3. Anyone with a disability such as a heart condition should never hike alone again (Lone Wolf) because it might affect other people. Sorry, but society is more important than you. "Hike your own hike" has been rescinded. Did someone mention that BPL was circling the wagons around one of their own? Physician, heal thyself . . .
4. I also live in Virginia and pay a buttload of taxes. I have no problem with paying the costs for a search like this. If it bothers you, just imagine that it's all coming out of my share.
5. For those who have suggested a "minder," are you volunteering? It's hard enough to find someone to hike with at all, let alone to find someone to hike at a 1/mph or less pace. A suggestion to "hike with someone," while easy to make, is the equivalent of saying "stay home."
1 - While I did not personally talk w/ Ken's parents, his friends did express their concerns about Ken in front of me. You most certainly know them. I remained anonomous for their sake. Am not trying to trash Ken. I admire him. Just trying to get through his thick skull as his friends are trying. One companion said maybe I could get through to him from my position as a searcher. The companion who swore never to hike with him again. Another stated that if this hike did not kill him, the next one will. Maybe it really is none of my business, as you stated. You apparently know him better than I. He could care less about me if he cares little about his own family and friends.
2 - Not complaining about SAR one bit. Where in my message did you gather that impression? I do it for the reasons stated earlier. I'm sorry to hear you walked away from it. Why? We need all the help we can get. How long did you do it and where?
Homer&Marje
05-04-2009, 07:10
Don't think too hard there... homer is a little lost himself :D
great post and approach to sar. thanks for your service
Now I'm really lost cause I haven't even figured out that I am lost yet:D:D
It's OK for people to agree with me Tin Man....Even you have dabbled in it before. Most people brush it off to temporary insanity. But I must be doing something right...survived till now:rolleyes:
Ken - I and many others spent Friday, Friday night, and all day Saturday looking for you. I admire your independence and accomplishments in a seeing world with your visual impairments.
I learned from two of your close friends that you have been lost before for three days on logging roads in Maine. I also learned from them that you are prone to falling, losing equipment, and veering off the trail quite frequently. And I gather from this thread that you are somewhat of a mule-headed maverick. :) So am I.
Do you not realize that all people have limitations, regardless of sight? Not knowing and realizing one's own limitations is a recipe for disaster. That is what keeps the SAR business in business.
I saw your parents walking up to the SAR base on the parkway Friday, and it broke my heart to think what they must be going through. Being as you were missing since Sunday, I and your friends realized the possibility was high that there was not going to be a positive outcome, despite all our best efforts.
I and many others continued searching through the night not just for your sake, but for the sake of your parents, family and friends. Do you know how hard it is for a parent not to have closure until a body is found?
Please reconsider your reluctance to accept assistance from friends on the trail who want to help. A little bit of help on the trail beforehand would have averted the tons of resources expended to find you. I'm sorry we did not locate you sooner. And it is ironic that it was your own actions that got you into the situation and eventually your own actions that led to you getting out of the situation.
I would like to know more about your days off the trail in an effort to more effectively search for people in the future. I'm not advocating you give up hiking Ken, just give up your short-sightedness (not the vision kind). In fact, I'd like to hike with you in the future. How about next winter on the AT here?
Quoting Clint Eastwood, "A man's got to know their limits".
since we're not on topic at all, I'd like to chime in that I've followed colter on here and his website and am immensely impressed with his pursuits (and sagacious advice/tips here and there) (obviously my subjective opinion).
Obviously his CDT hike wasn't the 1,000 alaskan bush miles, but have you been to most of new mexico or wyoming? I can't speak to Colorado or Montana but for NM and Wyom, there ain't shi* for many many miles!! Sure there isn't much (read: ANY) "true wilderness" (5 days on foot (and I'll leave open my definition of what 5 days on foot is so I can rebuke any statement of yours about where such wilderness may be in the 48)) in the lower 48 but don't kid yourself that when you say that the CDT doesn't have any real wilderness most people will disagree with you. Seems like you'd frequently be on a lengthy explanation when talking about wilderness with folks if you didn't make it clear from the onset what wilderness is to you.
no you're not a noob, for sure, but.. whew, its like correcting people who talk about having had a cold ice cream or beer cause your idea of 'actually cold' is -335 kelvin. okieeee...........
I know, and that's why I decided to let it go. There are some vast tracts of land in the west that have very little human influence. I own property in the Shirley basin of Wyoming and even with roads you might die before you ever saw another person. We can however, agree to disagree on what reall wilderness is and I think Colter knows what I mean (he may not agree with me, but I think he'll be able to grasp my view) since he's actually done 1,000 miles in Alaska. Jak, with his experience in nortern Canada probably does as well.
Oh, and by the way, my Guinness isn't cold until it's exactly 38*. Maybe one day we can share one while trekking in some "near" wilderness. :)
This hiker could see, just not very well.
What ever happened to the totally blind hiker who was going to do the Trail solo, with Just a GPS?
Interesting to revisit people's opinions on that one.
Most on the net said that was a good idea.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28630&highlight=blind+GPS&page=2
At least L Wolf was consistent in his views.
Big difference hiking with a vision impairment and being totally blind, though.
Mike Hanson put his hike off another year. He said he wants to raise $100K or something to create a documentary film of his hike...
www.blindhiker.com
Homer&Marje
05-04-2009, 09:36
Totally blind hiker climbed Everest. With lots of help....he has done most of the 14's in the United states as well....all with help.
Not saying that it's not possible for Ken or other visually impaired hikers to hike alone....just practice self preservation and think always what you should do and not what you can do.
Can't we all just....get along.:D
Alligator
05-04-2009, 10:43
I'm glad he was found and not seriously hurt. I may have missed it, but one suggestion that ought to come out of this is that when hiking, it's a good idea to leave an exit time with a responsible person so that when you don't check in, SAR gets called. On the AT, if I don't call my wife within 24 hours of my estimated end time, the appropriate authorities get a call. So if I'm injured or my trip mileage is off, I've got at least 24 hours to reach her to update my situation. The delay here was too long. IMHO, this trigger was Ken's responsibility based on the independent hike structure detailed earlier.
When sectioning, it's more likely that an itinerary is a reasonable approximation of where you will be. Leave one with your responsible person.
It's a good idea to sign a register once in a while too, to at least note when you've been through.
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 10:44
It's a good idea to sign a register once in a while too, to at least note when you've been through.
Agreed. . . .:)
Like many here I have some opinions on all of this, but I'm keeping them to myself until we read Ken's trip report. Whether on WB, BPL, in a future book, or somewhere else.
I really do hope he writes a long post, or an essay, or an entire book and goes into great detail about his two weeks-plus in Central Virginia in 2009. I hope others who were involved in the planning and execution of this hike are able to add their perspectives—through prefaces, forwards, or just being quoted liberally throughout the post/essay/book.
Until then . . . Happy Trails.
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 11:16
Like many here I have some opinions on all of this, but I'm keeping them to myself until we read Ken's trip report. Whether on WB, BPL, in a future book, or somewhere else.
I really do hope he writes a long post, or an essay, or an entire book and goes into great detail about his nearly two weeks-plus in Central Virginia in 2009. I hope others who were involved in the planning and execution of this hike are able to add their perspectives—through prefaces, forwards, or just being quoted liberally throughout the post/essay/book.
Until then . . . Happy Trails.
Nice post!! :sun:sun:sun
john gault
05-04-2009, 11:22
Nice post!! :sun:sun:sun
Nice post!! :sun:sun:sun
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 11:24
Yupperdoodle:sun:sun:sun
HikeLite
05-04-2009, 11:29
I think Ken was expected to meet the group at least by Tuesday afternoon. Twenty-four hours after that was when SAR was alerted, when he didn't make it home Thursday afternoon/evening. I was probably wrong in my earlier post about SAR not being alerted earlier. I'm not sure they could have been.
Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 11:48
Alot of you guys sure like being the hypercritical ones. The guy was found and he is fine, lets leave it at that and leave the discussion about what could have been done differently for another time. This site never ceases to amaze me sometimes with all the friggin experts :rolleyes:
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 11:50
The guy was found and he is fine, :rolleyes:
Amongst hikers. . . I'm amazed as well that any other input is necessary. . . . remembering Meredith. . .
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 11:50
Always. . . .
A good percentage of the folks on this site would never consider going out for a hike alone. And they're fully sighted. They're too scared. Give this guy some credit for livin' life.
Whiteblaze is full of Monday Morning Quarterbacks. I'd take advice from a couple dozen folks here. That's about it.
Lone Wolf
05-04-2009, 11:55
Alot of you guys sure like being the hypercritical ones. The guy was found and he is fine,
yeah but what about the next time?
Dances with Mice
05-04-2009, 11:56
I'd take advice from a couple dozen folks here. Your list is longer than mine.
Your list is longer than mine.
I was feeling generous. :)
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 12:00
yeah but what about the next time?
Probly like all his other hikes where he wasn't lost. . . . good for a brother hiker to be out there. . . . that is all. . . .:sun
There is no teacher like experience. I'll bet Ken has learned some things that are bound to change his approach, even if not readily apparent on the surface.
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 12:04
There is no teacher like experience. I'll bet Ken has learned some things that are bound to change his approach, even if not readily apparent on the surface.
Incorrect. . . .
.. . . just kiddin:p
There is no teacher like experience. I'll bet Ken has learned some things that are bound to change his approach, even if not readily apparent on the surface.
I hope he shares his experience and thoughts.
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 12:08
I hope he shares his experience and thoughts.
Agreed. . . !!:sun
Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 12:38
yeah but what about the next time?
Not like it aint gonna happen again. There will always be a next time. In the woods, s**t happens sometimes. The guy got out alive and well. Just who are we to be critical when we dont have his account. I remember someone sayin this on another topic:rolleyes:
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 13:10
Not like it aint gonna happen again. There will always be a next time. In the woods, s**t happens sometimes. The guy got out alive and well. Just who are we to be critical when we dont have his account. I remember someone sayin this on another topic:rolleyes:
Nice!!!:sun:sun:sun
The emotions from this weekend are beginning to settle and before this thread goes dead I’d like to share a few observations which may be instructive to those interested in learning.
I am one of Ken’s friends from Michigan who went down to VA to help in the effort. I can tell you I was blown away by the professionalism and the response of the VA SAR groups. The systematic, evidence-based way that they approached this search made me very confident in their efforts to find Ken—but that did not relieve my emotions when it came to imagining what condition he might be in when found. Nothing could address my emotions other than finding him.
Ron has well stated what needs to be said about Ken accepting the assistance and interactions of other hikers. That is one lesson that should be learned to avoid a re-occurrence for Ken as he rightfully continues his hiking.
I would like to address some other decision points from which any of us who hike in groups can learn… not Ken’s actions, but the actions of those around him. Actions which certainly were not causal in nature, but which certainly impacted how events unfolded.
I have lead group hikes in the past and will continue to lead them in the future, but I know I will do them a little differently from this point on. Following are some of the things I will do as a result of lessons learned.
1) I will require participants to clearly state any medical, personal or other pertinent limitations that they may have that will impact the group hike. I will also inform the participant tat this information will be shared with all other participants should they choose to join the group hike.
2) I will share this information on individual limitations with all others in the group in advance, and will review these issues at the pre-trip briefing.
3) I will strongly encourage group participants to be mindful of the whereabouts of their fellow hikers at all times. Personally, I believe this business of “I’ll meet you at the shelter” should be reserved for casual acquaintances met along the trail, but not for organized group hikes. I don’t personally ascribe to the “we’re a group but we’re all hiking independently” philosophy. Either we’re a group or we’re not, and everyone needs to know exactly where things stand.
4) At exit, I will require the whole group to stay put until all hikers are out. One of the biggest factors in delaying the search for Ken was the fact that the group disbanded and then later needed to make groups decisions about what could of possibly happened.
I know many of us hike with people we have never or barely met before. In the future, I know I will be more careful in assessing the dynamic being established in a group and will do what I can to foster accountability.
When I met Ken as he was exiting the hospital, one of his more astounding comments was when he said he thought people were looking for him as soon as Monday, maybe even Sunday night. When we pointed out that that was far from the truth, he was absolutely shocked. After getting off the trail, he did many things right (staying put, making sure he had water, shelter, etc.). Had there been closer tabs upon his location and a more prompt identification of the fact that he was lost, I am certain that he would have been located much earlier and with much fewer resources expended. And I don’t think that is an unreasonable expectation to have of the hiking community.
I would encourage all of us to continue to follow this situation as the facts now unfold and more objective lessons are learned. I encourage everyone to think “how does this apply to me? And what can I do better as a result of this shared experience?” We can all do some reflecting upon what it means to be a hike leader, a group participant, and a member of the hiking community.
Please don’t take this missive as an attempt to place blame on any one person. I will admit that I have broken all of these lessons learned in the past just like anyone else. I’m simply broadcasting these thoughts in the hopes that we can all learn something from this experience.
Lastly, I’ll be joining Ron and many others in making sure that Ken is making an objective assessment of this experience, learning from it, and changing behavior. I just get the pleasure of doing it in person! :)
Hike safely!
Siler
GAME’00
LT’01
Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 13:28
The emotions from this weekend are beginning to settle and before this thread goes dead I’d like to share a few observations which may be instructive to those interested in learning.
I am one of Ken’s friends from Michigan who went down to VA to help in the effort. I can tell you I was blown away by the professionalism and the response of the VA SAR groups. The systematic, evidence-based way that they approached this search made me very confident in their efforts to find Ken—but that did not relieve my emotions when it came to imagining what condition he might be in when found. Nothing could address my emotions other than finding him.
Ron has well stated what needs to be said about Ken accepting the assistance and interactions of other hikers. That is one lesson that should be learned to avoid a re-occurrence for Ken as he rightfully continues his hiking.
I would like to address some other decision points from which any of us who hike in groups can learn… not Ken’s actions, but the actions of those around him. Actions which certainly were not causal in nature, but which certainly impacted how events unfolded.
I have lead group hikes in the past and will continue to lead them in the future, but I know I will do them a little differently from this point on. Following are some of the things I will do as a result of lessons learned.
1) I will require participants to clearly state any medical, personal or other pertinent limitations that they may have that will impact the group hike. I will also inform the participant tat this information will be shared with all other participants should they choose to join the group hike.
2) I will share this information on individual limitations with all others in the group in advance, and will review these issues at the pre-trip briefing.
3) I will strongly encourage group participants to be mindful of the whereabouts of their fellow hikers at all times. Personally, I believe this business of “I’ll meet you at the shelter” should be reserved for casual acquaintances met along the trail, but not for organized group hikes. I don’t personally ascribe to the “we’re a group but we’re all hiking independently” philosophy. Either we’re a group or we’re not, and everyone needs to know exactly where things stand.
4) At exit, I will require the whole group to stay put until all hikers are out. One of the biggest factors in delaying the search for Ken was the fact that the group disbanded and then later needed to make groups decisions about what could of possibly happened.
I know many of us hike with people we have never or barely met before. In the future, I know I will be more careful in assessing the dynamic being established in a group and will do what I can to foster accountability.
When I met Ken as he was exiting the hospital, one of his more astounding comments was when he said he thought people were looking for him as soon as Monday, maybe even Sunday night. When we pointed out that that was far from the truth, he was absolutely shocked. After getting off the trail, he did many things right (staying put, making sure he had water, shelter, etc.). Had there been closer tabs upon his location and a more prompt identification of the fact that he was lost, I am certain that he would have been located much earlier and with much fewer resources expended. And I don’t think that is an unreasonable expectation to have of the hiking community.
I would encourage all of us to continue to follow this situation as the facts now unfold and more objective lessons are learned. I encourage everyone to think “how does this apply to me? And what can I do better as a result of this shared experience?” We can all do some reflecting upon what it means to be a hike leader, a group participant, and a member of the hiking community.
Please don’t take this missive as an attempt to place blame on any one person. I will admit that I have broken all of these lessons learned in the past just like anyone else. I’m simply broadcasting these thoughts in the hopes that we can all learn something from this experience.
Lastly, I’ll be joining Ron and many others in making sure that Ken is making an objective assessment of this experience, learning from it, and changing behavior. I just get the pleasure of doing it in person! :)
Hike safely!
Siler
GAME’00
LT’01
Thank you so much for your input. :)
Hikerhead
05-04-2009, 13:36
Questions I have....I might have missed this but seems the first thing they would have searched was the AT between Punchbowl and the James River and the trails that intersected the AT between those two points. He was known to be going south bound. He was found on the Little Rocky Row Trail, I believe that's the name of it. Did no one search that trail? If they did, why did they not find him? Was he camping off the trail?
I'm glad it all worked out.
Only the fool, the insane, or the irrationally hard-headed continue to do the same thing and expect different results.
Experience is the best teacher, but not the only one. One can learn from others. This is perhaps the best (most efficient) teacher, as it saves great wear-and-tear on self and others.
So, that being said, it is USEFUL to engage in Monday-morning quarterbacking, second-guessing, etc. This is how we learn.
Professional organizations conduct **After Action Reviews** to thoroughly figure out what happened and what can be done better next time. These discussions lead to **Best Practices**. Best Practices---which are shared among people through dialogue, seminars, and media---lead to improvements in performance, which is why the Virginia SAR performed so well. They did NOT have to learn everything themselves from "experience;" rather, they are part of the SAR "profession" and exchange Best Practices with other SAR groups.
It is essential that we discuss what Ken Knight did, and critique it, or we fail to benefit from an event from which many can learn.
One would hope that given Mr. Knight's serial experiences getting lost, that he will do the same. His situation was **avoidable**.
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 13:50
It is essential that we discuss what Ken Knight did, and critique it, or we fail to benefit from an event from which many can learn.
You must live a charmed life. . . the rest of us can only hope for a life as perfect yours . . .:)
A little technology would have solved this problem. Given Ken's limitations, carrying a GPS, SPOT, or Cell Phone makes sense.
As with all SAR operations there will be a thorough investigation and study of what happened. I'd like to read that report when it becomes available.
Gray Blazer
05-04-2009, 14:03
Really? You would burn all of SNP to the ground?
My wife's ex almost did, He burned a few thousand acres by Luray a few months ago. He wasn't lost. He's just a dumba$$.
(I'm not prejudiced against him or anything like that.)
I'm glad Ken is OK. I had a feeling he would be.
Honestly, I couldn't care less about this guy's story.
What is there to it?
Jerk doesn't know limitations,
jerk is an ******* to friends who are trying to prevent exactly what happens to jerk,
jerk sets wildfire out of desperation.
Wow, awesome. Can't wait to hear it:rolleyes: I hope we're allowed to criticize him after he tells it:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 14:12
Jerk is incapable of caring about people he's never met. . . . sad. . . Zoidtard. . .
Yupperdoodle or something
I'm glad he's ok, I just don't see what the big deal is. He sounds like your standard, "guy who ought to know better" and some are acting like he's above criticism for whatever reason.
Honestly, I couldn't care less about this guy's story.
That didn't stop you from chiming in though, did it?
What did we learn from this guy's post BR360? I'd say nothing about Ken, and quite a bit about Zoidfu.
I guess this is the part of the program where certain whiteblazers circle the wagons and have a good group cry:rolleyes:
Shhhh.... shhhhh... no more tears. I'm seeing myself out of the thread.:banana
Only the fool, the insane, or the irrationally hard-headed continue to do the same thing and expect different results.
I agree
Experience is the best teacher, but not the only one. One can learn from others. This is perhaps the best (most efficient) teacher, as it saves great wear-and-tear on self and others.
It may be the least painful way to gain knowledge, but you learn nothing like you would from personal experience, it just doesn't have the deep reaching effects. Read the book Deep Survival by Laurence Gonzales. It is a great work that helps the reader to understand the imprinting that is required for an emotional response, and that is what allows us to effectively manage fear and escape from life threatening situations.
So, that being said, it is USEFUL to engage in Monday-morning quarterbacking, second-guessing, etc. This is how we learn.
I agree 100%
They did NOT have to learn everything themselves from "experience;" rather, they are part of the SAR "profession" and exchange Best Practices with other SAR groups.
They learned, it would seem, from the prior AAR's of other SAR groups and that is vicarious experience.
Overall I think we agree that an effective AAR is important in understanding how best to deal with future mistakes and develop a successful response plan. As like minded individuals with a common interest we can gain useful insights from reviewing what occured and applying those lessons learned to help avoid future repetitions.
All hikers should be required to carry map, compass, GPS, SPOT, whistle, air horn, smoke cannister, two way radio, cell phone, signal mirror and wear bright glow in the dark orange clothing.
Just sayin...
Gray Blazer
05-04-2009, 14:20
All hikers should be required to carry map, compass, GPS, SPOT, whistle, air horn, smoke cannister, two way radio, cell phone, signal mirror and wear bright glow in the dark orange clothing.
Just sayin...
I knew I couldn't afford to be a real hiker.:mad:
Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 14:23
I guess this is the part of the program where certain whiteblazers circle the wagons and have a good group cry:rolleyes:
Shhhh.... shhhhh... no more tears. I'm seeing myself out of the thread.:banana
You seem to always have an a**hole lookout on most of the things you express your opinion on. Lesson to learn is that you sure like to play the "Jerk shoulda coulda woulda" game.
My point is that, Ken is found. Instead of bashing his name and telling him "oh I woulda done this cuz Im allllllll knowing and I would never get lost" start a thread about the lessons to be learned and do it in a professional manner instead of being so critical. Never know, we may be reading a story about you getting lost and doing whatever you can to be found.
medicjimr
05-04-2009, 14:24
It a shame what happens too these threads. Lets just all be happy he is safe and sound period.
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 14:25
It a shame what happens too these threads. Lets just all be happy he is safe and sound period.
:sun:sun:sun
Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 14:25
I guess this is the part of the program where certain whiteblazers circle the wagons and have a good group cry:rolleyes:
Shhhh.... shhhhh... no more tears. I'm seeing myself out of the thread.:banana
Kind of wish you'd see your way off of the site
Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 14:26
Thread shut down in 3.........2............1............
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 14:27
Kind of wish you'd see your way off of the site
Yupperdoodle. . .
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 14:27
Thread shut down in 3.........2............1............
. . . . 2 . . . . 3 . . . . it's not time yet. . . .
Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 14:30
. . . . 2 . . . . 3 . . . . it's not time yet. . . .
I hope not this fun
I have a compass and a map...and the attitude that if I get myself lost it's my resonsibility to get myself unlost. Don't get me wrong, there may come a day when I'll be darn glad to see a smiling SAR face, but there is an assumption of risk when we step into the woods. If we cannot handle that risk, maybe we should take up a new hobby.
Now, my question is this. There is insurance available for everything in life, so I must assume that SAR insurance can be had as well? If so, maybe through the ATC or some other organization we could get a group rate that would make it cheap. I DON'T think it should be mandated, but if I were headed out for a hike in an area where I could be injured or have other problems it sure would be nice to know it was there.
As for SPOT and some of the other tracking devices, I am in the woods and don't want to be burdened by all of the tech junk. But that is my choice and I know the day may come when I regret it.
Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 14:33
I have a compass and a map...and the attitude that if I get myself lost it's my resonsibility to get myself unlost. Don't get me wrong, there may come a day when I'll be darn glad to see a smiling SAR face, but there is an assumption of risk when we step into the woods. If we cannot handle that risk, maybe we should take up a new hobby.
Now, my question is this. There is insurance available for everything in life, so I must assume that SAR insurance can be had as well? If so, maybe through the ATC or some other organization we could get a group rate that would make it cheap. I DON'T think it should be mandated, but if I were headed out for a hike in an area where I could be injured or have other problems it sure would be nice to know it was there.
As for SPOT and some of the other tracking devices, I am in the woods and don't want to be burdened by all of the tech junk. But that is my choice and I know the day may come when I regret it.
Finally the voice of reason. Although I may not agree with all that you say, you did it in a respectful way. Way to go.
Gray Blazer
05-04-2009, 14:33
Someone's crying my Lord
Kum ba yah
I'm really glad they found the guy.
And yes, I would look for Zoidy, too if he were lost.
A little technology would have solved this problem. Given Ken's limitations, carrying a GPS, SPOT, or Cell Phone makes sense.
SPOT might be wise. I'll let Ken answer to the limitations GPS might have had in this circumstance. No cell reception in the area he was lost and I believe his battery died trying to get some.
Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 14:36
Someone's crying my Lord
Kum ba yah
I'm really glad they found the guy.
And yes, I would look for Zoidy, too if he were lost.
Leave him for the locals.
Questions I have....I might have missed this but seems the first thing they would have searched was the AT between Punchbowl and the James River and the trails that intersected the AT between those two points. He was known to be going south bound. He was found on the Little Rocky Row Trail, I believe that's the name of it. Did no one search that trail? If they did, why did they not find him? Was he camping off the trail?
Ken was not on the Little Rocky Row Trail, but in a location near by it. He passed the LRR Trail before he misplaced the AT.
Finally the voice of reason. Although I may not agree with all that you say, you did it in a respectful way. Way to go.
Thanks, I manage to not screw up when I open my mouth at least once a month. :)
Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 14:48
Thanks, I manage to not screw up when I open my mouth at least once a month. :)
Done good pooter
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 14:57
Thanks, I manage to not screw up when I open my mouth at least once a month. :)
Me too. . . ;):):p
Kind of wish you'd see your way off of the site
ditto!!!
or find something nice to say for a change
All hikers should be required to carry map, compass, GPS, SPOT, whistle, air horn, smoke cannister, two way radio, cell phone, signal mirror and wear bright glow in the dark orange clothing.
Just sayin...
Sorry, I forgot strobe light, barking dog and lots of batteries.
Chaco Taco
05-04-2009, 15:00
Sorry, I forgot strobe light, barking dog and lots of batteries.
and laptop so you can let the WB know-it-alls know where you are so they can guide you out
Sorry, I forgot strobe light, barking dog and lots of batteries.
And a gun. Don't forget that.
Alligator
05-04-2009, 15:03
Be constructive not destructive folks, no need for the name-calling.
Sorry, I forgot strobe light, barking dog and lots of batteries.
I used to actually carry small strobe lights that were left overs from ShandsCair's (a local aeromedical helo) LZ kits. They weighed like 3/4 pound a piece and I even had my kids carry them "in case". I think we had spare D cell batteries as well. Those were the days, nothing like an 80 pound pack to enjoy a hiking trip. :)
I used to actually carry small strobe lights that were left overs from ShandsCair's (a local aeromedical helo) LZ kits. They weighed like 3/4 pound a piece and I even had my kids carry them "in case". I think we had spare D cell batteries as well. Those were the days, nothing like an 80 pound pack to enjoy a hiking trip. :)
Was this back in the Disco days?
Alligator
05-04-2009, 15:09
We used to carry an 8-track and lots of batteries.
Lighting up a big White Birch makes a very good signal fire. Something the old timers used to do, but I always wondered if they ever got out of control. I imagine they did from time to time. A good trick to keep in mind though. Also, if ever you do **** up, don't be too shy. Get your ass found.
Alligator
05-04-2009, 15:11
If I remember right, the 8-track player took 4 six-volts.
max patch
05-04-2009, 15:13
Should'a hiked with a dog.
Lassie used to rescue her owners all the time.
warraghiyagey
05-04-2009, 15:13
If I remember right, the 8-track player took 4 six-volts.
Unless you were one of the blessed few that had one in your Gremlin. . .
http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/06-1972-gremlin-xlt.jpg
Was this back in the Disco days?
Not long after...more like big hair band time. ;)
My last post on this thread, I promise.
Ken, I'm glad you are okay!!!
Alligator
05-04-2009, 15:23
I used to actually carry small strobe lights that were left overs from ShandsCair's (a local aeromedical helo) LZ kits. They weighed like 3/4 pound a piece and I even had my kids carry them "in case". I think we had spare D cell batteries as well. Those were the days, nothing like an 80 pound pack to enjoy a hiking trip. :)I found a cool kid's toy recently. It's an LED glow light, like a glow stick. It glows, has a separate flashlight, it strobes, and the one downer is it has a whistle on the end (+/-). It was $5 at Dicks Sporting Goods. (That's actually where I found it, don't anyone read into it:p.)