View Full Version : Great Trail Days!!!... BUT
Miss Janet
05-19-2009, 23:08
It really was a great time this weekend. The local Damascus volunteers had done a great job preparing for the event. The weather was really pretty good. The rain on Saturday night only slightly dampened the enthusiasm. The police did a great job with thier official duties. The stinky masses behaved themselves very well... I could and should continue about the positive things and overall it really was a great Trail Days... so why the BUT?
Several years ago there was great discussion here about a fee being charged for the first time. I felt then that it was only common sense that those camping at the "NEW" tent city should help pay for the costs associated with camping there. The city of Damascus promised improvements to the grounds and bathhouse paid for with some of the proceeds. Now several years later these things are the same as they were that first year and the fee has been doubled.
I was surprised to see that friends/family and hikers staying in the towns B&B's, at The Place or drivng into Damascus for just the day had to pay to just walk into the campground for any reason.
Many even had to pay the 5$ to come in to see the Gear reps. The vendors tried to have this stopped but I personally saw many people told that EVERY PERSON walking into the campground must pay the 5$. Many of these people walked away. Without cell phone service friends/family could not even notify those inside the campground.
If they were driving they also had to pay the 15$ parking fee. One officer told me that he was told that the bonfire was an event that people had to pay to attend? HUH???? Each night I was also told at the gate by officers that the Campground was SOLD OUT... not just the very limited parking but to walk ins as well. I had family turned away personally!
I feel that this unfairly places the financial burden of paying for Trail Days expenses directly on the people staying in the campground or visiting there... There is NO parking fee's anywhere else in town for any other events. There is no "ADDMISSION FEE" for any other public events that I am aware of... but sitting beside a fire for a couple of hours costs 5$. or coming to see your friends and family... or seeing the gear reps...
I also wonder why the officers are also the ones that are responsible for greeting campground guests and vistors and selling the addmission passes? I have never thought of this before but I have not ever seen this at any other kind of festival anywhere. I felt bad that these officers were asked repeatedly questions that they did not know the answers to. Most of them are not from Damascus or even familiar with the layout of the town. Thier directions for parking alternatives sometimes led to tickets. They were frustrated and tired of hearing the same questions.
I am just wondering if this had any one elses attention or if I am just PMS'ing?
I thought the reason behind the admission fee had to do with controlling entrance to the Tent City area because of crime issues in past years. If so, it seems to have helped.
Miss Janet, I agree with you about some of the other issues you raise. How can the Tent City be "sold out"? Isn't it sitting on like 60 acres of ground? I was there just visiting Thursday and Friday and saw lots of unused space. Had to leave Saturday, so perhaps it filled up? Doubt it.
IMHO they should allow the gear reps to return to the Town Park where they set up before the camping hikers were kicked out of town and segregated at Tent City. If they were allowed to return to the Town Park, gear reps would gain more exposure to TD attendees other than just those camping at Tent City. Also it would end the issue of paying to see them.
trippclark
05-19-2009, 23:36
Miss Janet,
I think that your criticisms are legitimate. I was not, have not, and will not stay in the campground myself. I'm just not into the late night revelry that I hear about, but for those who enjoy that, fine, HYOH. I did come to the campground area on Saturday early evening to see the Footpath display across the street and see the vendors/manufacturers. I was not asked to pay the $10 parking fee, and did not see anyone collecting, but the sign alone almost turned me away. Likewise, when I entered the campground, I was not asked to pay a gate fee, but as I walked past the officers at the entrance, I got the "feeling" that I was somehow trespassing. If I had been asked to pay a $5 fee, as your post explains that others did have to do, I would not have entered.
I have no problem with the town earning revenue from the event. They should. The t-shirt sales, booth rental fees, and even a modest camping fee to use the campground do seem fair. Charging to park -- and only at that one lot -- and charging a gate fee to walk into the campground does seem to be way over the top.
All that said, as you stated in your post, Trail Days was and is a wonderful and fun event, and overall the town does an amazing job with it. I have been to 5 out of the past 6 and hope to attend many more!
Tripp
Canada Goose
05-19-2009, 23:39
When you go to the zoo, there is normally an admission fee to see the caged animals...:)
I was only able to visit for a short while, but I was shocked when they told me about the $5 fee to visit. I too, found it strange that it was the police doing the collecting. Nowhere had I seen, or heard, of this policy ahead of time; in retrospect it seems like it was applied arbitrarily - they could do it, so they did.
Fees to camp, and park, are reasonable and defensible. Fees to visit tho...??:eek:
Sorry I missed you, Miss J:sunHonk!
Blissful
05-19-2009, 23:50
I walked into the gear areas without having to pay anything. But I agree to keep the baddies out, that the $5 fee for the campground seems reasonable.
SawnieRobertson
05-20-2009, 00:44
It is an odd thing, but I have repeatedly through the years since 1997 become lost in Damascus. This year was no exception. I parked beside the Youth Center on Friday, saw that there was not a breath of air left at Lion King's presentation, and decided to head for the park to see friends. Thinking the park was just up the road, I headed out towards what turned out to be the camping area. It was not a bad walk, but the walk was more than I had been cleared to do by my orthopod post knee surgery.
Always thinking it was just a little farther up the road, I turned down offers by the shuttlers, but it was hot, and I was hurting.
Imagine my lack of delight when this young man challenged me as I began to walk through the gate: "What are you doing here? What do you want? Why are you here?"
What? I told him that I wanted to go to the vendors and to see friends. (I had not noticed any signs about $5.00 for the privilege.) He continued to question me, then finally let me pass through the gate with the order: "Be out in 30 minutes."
If I hadn't been so concerned about my knee, I would have done more than just talked with the Leki people and glanced at the other vendors' offerings. I could see that there were tents beyond, but I did not know that I had entered THE campground.
I was deeply offended by this young man's attitude, and I was not sure by what authority he was limiting my access to an area which obviously called for open visiting.
All I could think of was that he would make a good candidate for a role as a member of the Gestapo in a grade B movie.
Now I am sorry that I did not walk in deeper. Maybe Ms Janet was there. Maybe all the other friends that I never did see were in there too.
But I wandered on out, headed back to town, and eventually found the park and the vendors who were not under protection from the visiting public. I got to talk with Tin Man, Dawg, Dutch Treat, Pog, Ed Speer, Heartfire and her husband, Kirby, Sunset, Leap Frog, JoJo, Judith Foster, Baltimore Jack, Jan L., Pirate, Ron Haven, Laurie P., 30-30, AWOL, Atroll, and Sunset, but where were Marta, Yard Sale, Hummingbird, Ms Janet, Vera? The only way to know was to passively wait to see if they would come strolling by rather than go in search of.
So, if you were camping in there, did they provide you with some sort of pass so that you could come and go? Did they boss you around? I've known since 2005 hat they had tazers. This just seemed like the same mentality that would make that little, insigniicant town arm itself, fearing the most innocent as well as what must have been the most terribly unwelcome guests. I feel that they were incapable of telling the difference.--Kinnickinic
Jim Adams
05-20-2009, 00:58
The only crimes that were committed according to the police were the underage drinking of the locals from Damascus and Abingdon. I know of no other event that can have that many "partying" people and be so peaceful. No fights, no violence, no problems. So my questions are the same as Miss Janet. Why charge so many people a fee if you do not do or provide anything for that fee. It is not a "pretty" campground and not one improvement has been made since the first year there. The vendors are there but everything else is in town requiring walks, the shuttle bus or driving your own vehicle and losing your limited space parking spot (that you already paid for). The campground itself was nowhere near full. On top of all of this, my friends daughter after losing her paid for parking spot in the campground parking area parked in the ball park parking lot just until another spot opened up for her to pull into. She recieved a parking ticket ($25) because she had Georgia licence plates. Everyone with out of state plates recieved a parking ticket for parking in an unmarked legal lot at 3 in the afternoon because they were told that only Virginia plated cars were there to watch the ball games.
I had the best Trail Days that I've ever had because of the friends that I got to see but as far as being the "friendliest town", nothing that Damascus did made my trip better other than just having the event. This peaceful gathering of people is obviously a part of the towns major income for the year. I feel that it is time that the town gives something back....just my opinion.
geek
chiefduffy
05-20-2009, 04:00
I walked in to Damascus on Thursday, picked up my truck and drove to the campground. Paid my $5 for camping and $15 for parking FOR THE NEXT 4 DAYS, parked my truck, unloaded my bicycle and set up camp. Bicycle worked great for getting around, truck worked great for storage, camp for sleeping. I can't imagine a better deal. Getting someone other than cops to collect the fee is a good idea, tho.
Hey Miss Janet !
Yes Trail Daze was another great year as always. HAIRNT !
I was lucky enough to catch you in the Park on Saturday as I spent several hours there and hung out near my blue-blazing (now pink lol) hiker trash friend, Lowrider where he had his sticker booth setup, in hopes of seeing many of my friends who I knew would be at the campground. I did see many which was awesome. I also hiked in the parade but there were still so many I did not ever see. (although I heard one came to Hairntville but it was before I arrived, I got there around 1ish)
I stayed at The Campground one year back when it was first conceived, even moved all of Hobocentral Headquarters there as well. We all had a great time that year and there were only a few minor incidents but there has always been a strong police presence which if they knew anything about hiker trash they would know is not needed. We are perfectly capable of policing ourselves ! lol
I surely miss the good old days by the creek in town when hikers were allowed to be there before the growing numbers finally outgrew the space and it had to be moved to the only suitable location anywhere near town which is The Campground aka Toxic Waste Dump. The amount of police enforcement used is definitely not needed and i think it does have a negative effect on the atmosphere but keep in mind that it is not Damascus city police but rather it is the county that does that, not to mention the other agencies that are there.
I also miss Hobocentral HQ being in town as it gave me a better chance to see my friends as they could more easily drop down the Creeper trail to the house beside the trestle near the swimming pool to visit and it was closer for me to get out to The Campground but then there is this "visitation fee" thing that for some reason something inside me doesn't agree with so I have not been back to the campground since.
The camping fees and parking fees seem fair to me as it does cost the town a lot of $ to pay for Trail Daze but to have to pay to walk in to vist and not camp does not seem fair at all however if we are to complain we should also input some idea of how to implement this without having a negative effect. How to determine who is visiting and who is actually camping (stamp your hand ? lol) would be a task and there will always be those that will try and cheat the system, but geesh the place is huge and there is NO way it can be full so why not just let people who 'appear' to be walking in to visit do so without charging them and I am sure they would still make a fair amount of $. The vendors used to be in town even after the campground but it was decided they needed to be closer to where the hikers were so they moved. I am not sure which is best and I can't make an objective suggestion as I think everything and everyone should be in town ! It is a bad idea imo that anyone have to pay to have access to the gear reps besides they pay hefty fees to be there. And I agree, that if this money is to be charged then some sort of improvements should be made to the camp itself. And parking fees should be consistent, if you charge to park near tent city just to visit and leave then you should pay to park anywhere in the city. (doesn't matter to me cause Imma park at Wolf's house, lol)
After reading this thread I have given this some thought and I do see where charging the $5 fee to everyone does greatly limit the amount of 'baddies' (gotta love that term, lol) from entering the campground which is good but if the cops would watch the stuff instead of trying to watch for someone drinking or using drugs it maybe wouldn't matter ?
We didn't have this amount of police attention when it was in town and there were hardly ever any issues (shutting down the drum circle when it got really late, lol) and I am sure it would not be needed now, but I am open for any positive suggestions to make things better.
I know it is a hard job being on the Trail days committee and trying to decide how to make everything work, plus you have different people from yr. to yr. with their own views etc., and they probly don't use things like this forum to gather input when they are making these decisons but they will hopefully listen to any ideas and in return they can also perhaps provide us with things we might not know about as to their reasons for the decisions they have made ? Who knows !
Either way I probly would still not get to see all my friends as I seem to always be in Hairntville behind the grilles doing something I love which is cooking mass qtys. for the ones I love. Speaking of which, next year will be the 20th year of the Brown Gap Hikers Feast (largest trail magic in one spot ever) which during the 15 or so yrs. that I did it was where I met the majority of my 'drunken blue blazing hiker trash from hell' and many other hikertrash friends so maybe I should be there for a major trash down ??? ! This would require alumni to be present so heads up !
Back to the $5 visit fee, after not getting to see my 'Blister Bitchin' Sister' and the rest of my Billsville friends this year, perhaps $5 isn't nothing to bitch about after all? But to answer your question, yes this was noticed by many so you are not PMSing !!
Big howdy to anyone I missed, and to everyone else I did see, it was great seeing you again.
HAIRNT !
Lone Wolf
05-20-2009, 06:37
IMHO they should allow the gear reps to return to the Town Park where they set up before the camping hikers were kicked out of town and segregated at Tent City. If they were allowed to return to the Town Park, gear reps would gain more exposure to TD attendees other than just those camping at Tent City. Also it would end the issue of paying to see them.
the gear reps were never at the town park. they were always at the privately owned funeral home parking lot.
hikers weren't "kicked" out of town. there just wasn't enough room down by the river anymore
Lone Wolf
05-20-2009, 06:47
folks bitchin' about a $5 fee for 5 days access is ridiculous
mweinstone
05-20-2009, 07:37
the cops make traildays better and the hikers are rich and five bucks is a penny these days and miss janets pmsing and so it goes. i will support damascus cops with my life. also,.....the firewood sales by the cops and the fact that they deliver, is way cool. lets put down our silly rules and play straight. if cops were allowed to make a buck while risking their lives for years and dieing too, it would go well for us all. if cops could keep drug dealers moneys, we would benifit more than the supposed programs "supported" by reposesed druglord possesions. alot of rules are dumb. but miss janet does indeed still rock. i have allways maintained, cops and teachers are the heros and should be rich as balls. and polititions should all be volenteers. gabish?
The Old Fhart
05-20-2009, 07:51
Lone Wolf-"folks bitchin' about a $5 fee for 5 days access is ridiculous"I gotta agree with LW on this one. I wasn't staying at the campground and had no problems with paying to visit several times. My ride down and back was 4 days and 1800 miles so trying to get stressed over $5 never was an issue.
What was ridiculous was how much at Trail Days was free.
Gray Blazer
05-20-2009, 10:07
teachers are the heros and should be rich as balls. gabish?
I knew there was a reason I loved Mattstone.
reddog176
05-20-2009, 10:25
When I showed up on Thursday evening, and entered tent city, I was asked if I was camping or visiting. I assumed if I was camping I'd have to pay, and if visiting I would not.
Maybe they got so overwhelmed by people that they stopped asking, and assumed everyone was just camping. (Which isn't right)
-Gadget
Mrs Baggins
05-20-2009, 10:28
I think something is being missed here......Miss Janet said that the purpose of the fees was to make improvements to the campground and that that never happened. Apparently the fees are disappearing down a black hole? Why hasn't anyone looked into where exactly the money is going? If you already know where it's going and you don't have a problem with it, then no problem. But if the fees are still being passed off as "for improvements to the campground" then something has to change in the way they're collected/who's doing the collecting. I don't think anyone cares so much about the fees per se - it's more a matter of the whys and wheres of it. I don't know, just sayin'. Maybe when a sign is posted that says "$10 parking fee" it should say somewhere on it who is benefiting from the $10.
saimyoji
05-20-2009, 10:29
$5 people!! $5.
http://www.xenafan.com/movies/bod/images/johnny05.jpg
It really was a great time this weekend. The local Damascus volunteers had done a great job preparing for the event. The weather was really pretty good. The rain on Saturday night only slightly dampened the enthusiasm. The police did a great job with thier official duties. The stinky masses behaved themselves very well... I could and should continue about the positive things and overall it really was a great Trail Days... so why the BUT?
Several years ago there was great discussion here about a fee being charged for the first time. I felt then that it was only common sense that those camping at the "NEW" tent city should help pay for the costs associated with camping there. The city of Damascus promised improvements to the grounds and bathhouse paid for with some of the proceeds. Now several years later these things are the same as they were that first year and the fee has been doubled.
I was surprised to see that friends/family and hikers staying in the towns B&B's, at The Place or drivng into Damascus for just the day had to pay to just walk into the campground for any reason.
Many even had to pay the 5$ to come in to see the Gear reps. The vendors tried to have this stopped but I personally saw many people told that EVERY PERSON walking into the campground must pay the 5$. Many of these people walked away. Without cell phone service friends/family could not even notify those inside the campground.
If they were driving they also had to pay the 15$ parking fee. One officer told me that he was told that the bonfire was an event that people had to pay to attend? HUH???? Each night I was also told at the gate by officers that the Campground was SOLD OUT... not just the very limited parking but to walk ins as well. I had family turned away personally!
I feel that this unfairly places the financial burden of paying for Trail Days expenses directly on the people staying in the campground or visiting there... There is NO parking fee's anywhere else in town for any other events. There is no "ADDMISSION FEE" for any other public events that I am aware of... but sitting beside a fire for a couple of hours costs 5$. or coming to see your friends and family... or seeing the gear reps...
I also wonder why the officers are also the ones that are responsible for greeting campground guests and vistors and selling the addmission passes? I have never thought of this before but I have not ever seen this at any other kind of festival anywhere. I felt bad that these officers were asked repeatedly questions that they did not know the answers to. Most of them are not from Damascus or even familiar with the layout of the town. Thier directions for parking alternatives sometimes led to tickets. They were frustrated and tired of hearing the same questions.
I am just wondering if this had any one elses attention or if I am just PMS'ing?
If it's any comfort I was charged to enter as well. However I do think I will raise an issue with the chief about shutting down the camp ground because that is just plain bs....
I think something is being missed here......Miss Janet said that the purpose of the fees was to make improvements to the campground and that that never happened. Apparently the fees are disappearing down a black hole? Why hasn't anyone looked into where exactly the money is going? If you already know where it's going and you don't have a problem with it, then no problem. But if the fees are still being passed off as "for improvements to the campground" then something has to change in the way they're collected/who's doing the collecting. I don't think anyone cares so much about the fees per se - it's more a matter of the whys and wheres of it. I don't know, just sayin'. Maybe when a sign is posted that says "$10 parking fee" it should say somewhere on it who is benefiting from the $10.
Immediately after the money was collected I sit in on the biggest poker game that I have ever attended here in Damascus........
the gear reps were never at the town park. they were always at the privately owned funeral home parking lot.
hikers weren't "kicked" out of town. there just wasn't enough room down by the river anymore
Guess I'll defer to your memory about where the gear reps used to set up. Now that you mention it, I do recall Mountainsmith in particular near the old creek campground. But I thought some others were in the Town Park. My bad.
Still, it would make more sense IMHO to have the gear reps at the Town Park today than out at the Tent City. More people could avail themselves of their services, and each brand would get more exposure which might equal more brand allegiance when it comes time to buy new gear.
WalkingStick75
05-20-2009, 12:08
Miss Janet and I talked briefly about the $5.00 issue and I did not get the impression it was the amount but that nobody knew of the increase.
I too think the Damascus Police did a great job but was also surprised that they were the ones collecting the money and answering all the questions. That is not their job. With all that money being collected I would think that the entrance would be staffed by whoever is benefiting from the collection of that fee at least during the traffic period and "ask" the Damascus Police to watch the entrance say midnight to 6am or so.
Also posted rules as you come in such as:
No open alcohol
I think that the complaining about the $5 is nonsense. Those here that go to the RUCK pay more for the Ironmaster's "Day Use Fee". If it bothers you that the $5 fee is to enter the campground, think of it as a $5 festival fee. There used to be a mountain biking festival in western MA similar to TDs. They charged $75! for the weekend, and provided the same basic services you can find at TDs.
Having the police check you in for this event is a positive - they were all friendly and helpful. I can't imagine that non-law-enforcement types could have been any friendlier. They also serve as a reminder that they have a strong presence. If they gave off that Im-better-than-you attitude that some police officers do, I'd understand. But every cop that I've ever talked to at TDs was polite.
They also warned me where not to park, and that they were writing parking tickets aggressively. I parked where I was instructed and had no problems. Sure, I had to park down by the Rock School, but I also saved $15. I would have gladly paid $15 to park closer if I was allowed.
However, I think that saying that the campground was FULL and not allowing someone to walk in is a problem. There is no way that place can get "full". Also, if you paind the $15 to park, you were supposed to be guarenteed a spot in the campground. I think there was some mis-communication about this perhaps.
As for the campground improvements - this is the one real area I'd like to see change. For all the money that has been collected lately, I'd like to see better bathrooms, more showers, and hot water. I know that bathrooms are expensive, and I'd gladly pay $10 next year if the bathhouse was in better shape.
Another idea - have a "day use" colored armband for $2. If you have a glow-in-the-dark armband, you have to be out of the campground by dark.
These are all good suggestions and will be considered for next year. Maybe. Unfortunately the Trail Days committee is down to about four people, and there was much confusion this year with the parking, entry for people going to the equipment reps, etc. I'm going to push hard next year for the town to hire an event coordinator, someone who will help eliminate the lack of communication, the inconsistencies in campground entry, and will help things run more smoothly, such as moving the Gazebo events along in a timely manner.
The issue of putting money back into the campground is a serious one, because the town has simply ignored this. They need to be held accountable, and it is the hiking community that can best do this. A few of you standing before town council, with the press in attendance, would do much to make this a better event.
Jester2000
05-20-2009, 13:59
Still, it would make more sense IMHO to have the gear reps at the Town Park today than out at the Tent City. More people could avail themselves of their services, and each brand would get more exposure which might equal more brand allegiance when it comes time to buy new gear.
Hmm. I believe it makes the most sense to have the gear reps where they want to be, which in this case happens to be the camping area (mainly because that's where the actual thru-hikers are staying).
The reps in the camping area are doing repairs rather than selling, which is why they're allowed to be there, and I doubt there's anyone who NEEDS gear repaired that doesn't know where they are -- they don't, in my opinion, need to be in the park. I haven't asked him, but if I called Chris at Leki I really doubt that he would think he needed more work to do.
The fact that they do free repairs at all anywhere should inspire brand allegiance.
Bless you Jester! :D
We sell nothing at the campgrounds. We are there for the hikers.
If we were moved to the city park, we would double the work talking and dealing with public. :rolleyes:
MORE WORK :eek:, Thanks, NO. 292 pairs is enough...
I leave the selling at T.D's for my Leki dealers.
Manufacturer Reps Service Area is seperate from the Venders in the park.
Great Trail Days! Many fun people :sun
Elder
The Leki Guy
slingblade
05-20-2009, 14:56
I had a blast.
I agree with Jester - keep the vendors in the campground.
Er... rather, I meant to say keep the gear reps in the campground, and the vendors in the park.
chiefduffy
05-20-2009, 15:29
I'm going to push hard next year for the town to hire an event coordinator, someone who will help eliminate the lack of communication, the inconsistencies in campground entry, and will help things run more smoothly, such as moving the Gazebo events along in a timely manner.
The issue of putting money back into the campground is a serious one,
Thanks Local. I appreciate you taking note. BTW, remember those little shower rooms at the campgrounds in SNP? Little private ones, 4 quarters=4 minutes hot water. Just sayin
boarstone
05-20-2009, 16:12
I think all these issues need to be taken up w/the Commerce Dept. and the Town Office of the town to get them clarified. It doesn't sound like everyone was on the same page and need to be as this event is getting larger by the year. Address your concerns as a group, including vendors or their reps. to the people in the town, town council maybe? Or whomever is in charge of said goings on in town.
gold bond
05-20-2009, 16:38
This was my first Trail Days and many thanks to Tripp Clark for letting me catch a ride and hang with him as he has been many times and "showed me the ropes"! I had a freakin blast!! Damascus is a wonderful place and the people are great...the friendliest I have come across anyway. I met so many people that I have chatted here with on WB but there were many more I know I missed and thats my loss for sure! I saw Ms. Janet but did not get to speak....spoke with Lion King, ATTROLL, AWOL, Model-T and so many more but like I said there are many more I would have liked to talked too. Got to go down to Fatties and eat. Met Bill and Girl! Sat in on alot of seminars and was just awed at all the information I got......what a wonderful way to spend the weekend...with hikers!!
leeki pole
05-20-2009, 17:08
Just saying, in deference to Miss Janet, I agree. I've been the organizer for a race here (3 mile run, 2 mile walk) for seven years in conjunction with a local 3 day festival and we charge nothing for parking, no admission fees, no RACE fees (yes it's free and you get a really cool shirt and refreshments) and about 100 vendors plus free shuttles all around town on a cotton trailer pulled by a tractor. It's mostly an arts and crafts show and lots of food, but we had almost 200 participants in our race last year and in a town of 3,000 people, almost 12,000 visitors. The Chamber of Commerce should carefully review the town's stance on fees, I too think it's wrong. These people help our economy and that far outweighs any revenue that whomever collects. Even though we went "wet" last year with beer legal, there were no incidents. None. Maybe the "hikers" are the problem, just saying.
Johnny Swank
05-20-2009, 17:14
Didn't make it down for Trail Days (death in the family), but it sounds like much of this could have been avoided by just issuing some bracelets for folks entering the campground. Camper, visitor, whatever. $5/head gets you a snazzy tyvek bracelet to wear for a few days that gets you access to the campground.
Hell, it's even ultralight!
bonnermc
05-20-2009, 17:16
I don't know, maybe it was a consistancy issue. I hiked in, camped in town near the place. I went up to the tent city three times. Only once did someone actually attempt to stop me from entering and even then, I wasn't charged nor was I informed of a charge. I just mentioned I was there to see the vendor and was waved through. Actually, until reading this, I never knew anyone was being charged except for those staying at tent city.
Chaco Taco
05-20-2009, 17:25
Didn't make it down for Trail Days (death in the family), but it sounds like much of this could have been avoided by just issuing some bracelets for folks entering the campground. Camper, visitor, whatever. $5/head gets you a snazzy tyvek bracelet to wear for a few days that gets you access to the campground.
Hell, it's even ultralight!
Bracelets were issued
Lone Wolf
05-20-2009, 17:39
Just saying, in deference to Miss Janet, I agree. I've been the organizer for a race here (3 mile run, 2 mile walk) for seven years in conjunction with a local 3 day festival and we charge nothing for parking, no admission fees, no RACE fees (yes it's free and you get a really cool shirt and refreshments) and about 100 vendors plus free shuttles all around town on a cotton trailer pulled by a tractor. It's mostly an arts and crafts show and lots of food, but we had almost 200 participants in our race last year and in a town of 3,000 people, almost 12,000 visitors. The Chamber of Commerce should carefully review the town's stance on fees, I too think it's wrong. These people help our economy and that far outweighs any revenue that whomever collects. Even though we went "wet" last year with beer legal, there were no incidents. None. Maybe the "hikers" are the problem, just saying.
we ain't got no chamber of commerce and who's gonna pay for the porta potties, water, electricity, garbage removal, police, shuttle bus, bands, etc. ?
$5 to camp for 4 days or $15 to park inside the party zoo is nothing. too many bitchers
we ain't got no chamber of commerce and who's gonna pay for the porta potties, water, electricity, garbage removal, police, shuttle bus, bands, etc. ?
$5 to camp for 4 days or $15 to park inside the party zoo is nothing. too many bitchers
I agree - seriously, other festivals provide less and charge $75 per person (parking included!). Maybe a better way to get the $5 / person is to require a wristband for ALL of the TD events, not just "walking into the campground".
leeki pole
05-20-2009, 18:10
we ain't got no chamber of commerce and who's gonna pay for the porta potties, water, electricity, garbage removal, police, shuttle bus, bands, etc. ?
$5 to camp for 4 days or $15 to park inside the party zoo is nothing. too many bitchers
ain't bitchin', just trying to help....a Chamber and local clubs could recruit sponsors and organize the event....charge the vendors, not the visitors; that's how we do it.....if the event is getting as big as you say, maybe you could head it up......:)
The Old Fhart
05-20-2009, 18:21
leeki pole-"....charge the vendors, not the visitors..."The "vendors" at the campground are providing FREE repair service and you want to charge them? :eek:
The "vendors" at the campground are providing FREE repair service and you want to charge them? :eek:
Why not? While it is a generous service they are providing, it is all about marketing. Don't kid yourself otherwise.
I wouldn't give the visitors a free pass though. The Town of Damascus ought to be able to cover their expenses and make a buck or three.
Chaco Taco
05-20-2009, 18:37
ain't bitchin', just trying to help....a Chamber and local clubs could recruit sponsors and organize the event....charge the vendors, not the visitors; that's how we do it.....if the event is getting as big as you say, maybe you could head it up......:)
Vendors do get charged, Backpacker Magazine Sponsors it
leeki pole
05-20-2009, 18:42
The "vendors" at the campground are providing FREE repair service and you want to charge them? :eek:
Sure. I guess if they had product and visitors saw customer service they'd think about purchasing their wares, if not then, but maybe down the road. Wow, I remember them and what good service they gave. I'm in a service industry and customers will tell 4 people about great service, but 17 about bad service. Them's the stats. I don't think a legitimate vendor would have a problem with it.
The Old Fhart
05-20-2009, 19:10
Let me rephrase it to make it clearer-"The "vendors" at the campground are providing FREE repair service and you want to charge them instead of the visitors?" :eek: What makes hikers so entitled that they expect everyone else to cover every single expense of their trip? The vendors are only a part of the reason to enter the campground. I didn't use the vendor services at all but entered the campground to meet friends staying there and that was worth $5. Do you want to charge visitors who enter but don't use vendor services or should the vendors cover their entrance fee as well?
The sellers in the park pay a great deal to conduct business there-that's fine. There is absolutely nothing wrong with charging visitors to pay for a service they use, i.e., entering the campground-why should vendors pay for those people. Seems I remember a story about killing a goose that laid golden eggs. :-?
vamelungeon
05-20-2009, 19:16
I can't believe all the whining. Complaining about limiting access to a campground, which was done to prevent some of the stealing that had gone on in the past, calling the guy on duty watching the place "gestapo" and bitching about a $5 fee???? I've run events before and this is why you get burnt out on doing it.
My hat's off to everyone who worked to make Trail Days happen! I wish I could have been there.
Jester2000
05-20-2009, 19:28
Why not? While it is a generous service they are providing, it is all about marketing. Don't kid yourself otherwise.
I know the reps who repair gear at Trail days. Don't kid yourself. It's NOT all about marketing.
Sure. I guess if they had product and visitors saw customer service they'd think about purchasing their wares, if not then, but maybe down the road. Wow, I remember them and what good service they gave. I'm in a service industry and customers will tell 4 people about great service, but 17 about bad service. Them's the stats. I don't think a legitimate vendor would have a problem with it.
"Maybe down the road" someone might buy something from their company, so they shouldn't have a problem with being charged for the priviledge of working their butts off repairing gear for free?!?
I was going to dissect that, but instead I think I'll go with this: hahahahahahahahahahaha.
Blissful
05-20-2009, 19:33
The Leki people were great and were working their you-know-what off. They had all the stuff right there to replace inner clips, tips, baskets.
Just wish I had brought my broken headlamp for Princeton to look at...
I know the reps who repair gear at Trail days. Don't kid yourself. It's NOT all about marketing.
OK. Not "all" about marketing. Just 90%. :rolleyes: You think they're there to simply have a good time? You talked about brand allegiance just this morning.
PS: I have 2 dozen Leki poles donated by the company for kids who are visually impaired. Got nothing against any outdoor industry company.
Chaco Taco
05-20-2009, 19:52
In terms of charging for friends/family visiting, i just dont see why $5 is such an issue. I know the economy is bad but if $5 is an issue maybe people should have rethought the trip.
Chaco Taco
05-20-2009, 19:53
Traildays aint gonna pay for itself. Its mostly volunteer supported and I commend the volunteers and locals on putting up with that many people in such a small area
Just some language clarification as we use it here: "vendors" are those in the town park who sell stuff. We charge them a fee to be there. We have a backlog of vendors wanting to get in on the action. Manufacturer's representatives, or "reps," are those in the campground providing free services. They are not charged, although last year a different Trail Days Committee charged them. This year's bunch, myself included, felt we should not charge the reps.
Lone Wolf has made a strong statement on where the money goes: "we ain't got no chamber of commerce and who's gonna pay for the porta potties, water, electricity, garbage removal, police, shuttle bus, bands, etc. ?"
We need to cover these expenses Wolf outlines, but we also need an event coordinator, and we do need for the town to put money back into the campground. That was the original agreement: charge a fee for entry, but improve conditions in the campground. We'll copy all the comments here for consideration next year, but you can also send your direct comments to Tuesday Pope, the town clerk, at damascusclerk @ embarqmail.com (remove the spaces.)
Mrs Baggins
05-20-2009, 19:58
In terms of charging for friends/family visiting, i just dont see why $5 is such an issue. I know the economy is bad but if $5 is an issue maybe people should have rethought the trip.
I don't think the price is the issue. It's "where is the money going?" When I pull up to a national park gate and give them my money I'm working on the assumption that the money is going for the upkeep of the park. If I suspected it was going into the pockets of the rangers I'd never enter another park - ever. Miss Janet wanted to know why the money hadn't been used for it's original intent - to improve the campground. Everyone is dancing around that like the 800 pound gorilla in the room. The silence on that screams volumes about where the money really is going................the constant attempts to deflect that and try to make the argument about the fees themselves is pretty much the answer.......into someone's pockets and not to any real expenses or improvements. Demand an audit and then watch to see who screams loudest and who flees...........
Chaco Taco
05-20-2009, 20:00
I don't think the price is the issue. It's "where is the money going?" When I pull up to a national park gate and give them my money I'm working on the assumption that the money is going for the upkeep of the park. If I suspected it was going into the pockets of the rangers I'd never enter another park - ever. Miss Janet wanted to know why the money hadn't been used for it's original intent - to improve the campground. Everyone is dancing around that like the 800 pound gorilla in the room. The silence on that screams volumes about where the money really is going................the constant attempts to deflect that and try to make the argument about the fees themselves is pretty much the answer.......into someone's pockets and not to any real expenses or improvements. Demand an audit and then watch to see who screams loudest and who flees...........
I hear ya, paying the police for overtime is a start.
Mrs Baggins
05-20-2009, 20:02
I hear ya, paying the police for overtime is a start.
And that's fine - that's a real expense. Say so then. Prove it in an audit.
.............. The silence on that screams volumes about where the money really is going.................into someone's pockets and not to any real expenses or improvements. Demand an audit and then watch to see who screams loudest and who flees...........
The money goes into the town's general fund, which to me is a violation by the town council of the understanding agreed to when we first charged for campground entry. The campground receipts need to be designated for a special line item in the budget to create improvements. As to "into someone's pockets..." we have admittedly had some weirdness in the past, but nothing was pursued legally.
Lone Wolf
05-20-2009, 20:11
In terms of charging for friends/family visiting, i just dont see why $5 is such an issue. I know the economy is bad but if $5 is an issue maybe people should have rethought the trip.
for every person that bitched about the $5 fee i bet they spent $40 for beer to bring into the campground
Lone Wolf
05-20-2009, 20:15
I don't think the price is the issue. It's "where is the money going?" When I pull up to a national park gate and give them my money I'm working on the assumption that the money is going for the upkeep of the park. If I suspected it was going into the pockets of the rangers I'd never enter another park - ever. Miss Janet wanted to know why the money hadn't been used for it's original intent - to improve the campground. Everyone is dancing around that like the 800 pound gorilla in the room. The silence on that screams volumes about where the money really is going................the constant attempts to deflect that and try to make the argument about the fees themselves is pretty much the answer.......into someone's pockets and not to any real expenses or improvements. Demand an audit and then watch to see who screams loudest and who flees...........
if you're really concerned about where the money is going then call the town hall and ask for an accounting. it should be public record. report back here
for every person that bitched about the $5 fee i bet they spent $40 for beer to bring into the campground
That $5 could have bought a 40 and maybe another deuce:mad:
Trillium
05-20-2009, 20:32
WOW, just WOW. you are obviously not an accountant much less a CPA. . . and your accusations are just downright insulting to the fine sworn officers who staffed the campground.
I have to believe that their town's Finance Department, Treasurer, Accountant, have a Ticket Accounting system in place to account for the proceeds from the campground and ensure that there isn't any shrinkage as you are suggesting.
I just checked my wristband and it is definitely numbered. What should be happening is that the people responsible for collecting the entrance fees are issued a numbered inventory of wristbands and parking tags. They turn in the wristbands and parking tags remaining at the end of the event along with the money collected. The bean counters then verify that the amount collected equals the wristbands and parking tags issued.
The proceeds likely go into the town's General Fund. Payments for all the expenses of Trail Days come out of the General Fund. With all the expense of Trail Days, I would not expect much more than a breakeven, if they even approach that. But then I am not privy to all the revenue collected. However, the overtime expense for the police has to be quite a large sum. Then with the portajohns and the evacuation of same (one of which practically drowned out Jester at the end of the useless gear contest), trash collection/disposal, rent, etc, etc, there may or may not be net revenue in excess of expenditures.
I don't know how often that facility is used, but the ladies side of the campground bathroom/shower facility was ample. My only complaint was all the water on the floor. . . oh and the broken toilet seat. pretty minor compared to the awesomeness of the event.
my experience with the police and the explorers/cadets was very positive. they were very friendly and many quite handsome.
Thanks very much to all the people who worked behind the scenes to put on such a great trail days!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Local, The only other solution would be to deposit the proceeds into a Special Revenue Fund. This could be done but the town governing body would need to approve this formally, either by resolution or whatever form their votes are formalized. Then the proceeds could be used only for the purposes for which it was designated. Does Damascus prepare a Comprehensive Annual Financial Report?
The Scribe
05-20-2009, 20:40
I gotta agree with LW on this one. I wasn't staying at the campground and had no problems with paying to visit several times. My ride down and back was 4 days and 1800 miles so trying to get stressed over $5 never was an issue.
What was ridiculous was how much at Trail Days was free.
Right on Fhart.
When one considers how much it cost them to get to Damascus (plane, train, automobile, bike, by foot) compared to $5 to camp and/or $15 to park, it's crazy.
My only issues have been pointed out already. I would hate to pay the $15 to park then lose my spot. I parked in the campground one year. I never moved the truck until it was time to come home.
But bigger still is the $5 fee and how it is applied. Several of us went down to the campground for Billville's Useless Gear Contest. One group of three walked in uncontested. No $5. The other three, at about the same time, had to cough up the money.
Trillium, for the first several years the town actually lost money in putting on Trail Days. Only in the past few years has the town made a profit, and my understanding is that last year the town "cleared" around twelve thousand or so. But I have been unable to obtain a print-out or understanding of where all the money goes. I will try once again this year to get this and post it in several places, because I think this information would calm down some of the local rumors as to who is profiting. We are a small town and we tend to take sides and talk about the other group a lot; otherwise, things would get really boring around here. We are somewhat like Whiteblaze in that aspect.
The Scribe
05-20-2009, 20:44
Guess I'll defer to your memory about where the gear reps used to set up. Now that you mention it, I do recall Mountainsmith in particular near the old creek campground. But I thought some others were in the Town Park. My bad.
Still, it would make more sense IMHO to have the gear reps at the Town Park today than out at the Tent City. More people could avail themselves of their services, and each brand would get more exposure which might equal more brand allegiance when it comes time to buy new gear.
What's the difference between the gear reps in the park (Speer, Jacks, War Bonnet, Hennessey, hiking food, other gear), and those in the campground? Aren't they all gear reps?
Just askin.
The Old Fhart
05-20-2009, 20:48
The Scribe-"...Aren't they all gear reps?"The distinction is the people set up in the park pay to sell while the people in the campground can't sell.
What's the difference between the gear reps in the park (Speer, Jacks, War Bonnet, Hennessey, hiking food, other gear), and those in the campground? Aren't they all gear reps?
Just askin.
Scribe, just local language we use to differentiate who goes where, who pays and who doesn't. Reps in the campground, vendors in the park. Reps don't pay and don't sell, vendors pay and sell. Yeah, we sometimes talk funny down here in ap uh latch uh.
The Scribe
05-20-2009, 21:06
The distinction is the people set up in the park pay to sell while the people in the campground can't sell.
Thanks Fhart. That makes sense.
The Scribe
05-20-2009, 21:07
Scribe, just local language we use to differentiate who goes where, who pays and who doesn't. Reps in the campground, vendors in the park. Reps don't pay and don't sell, vendors pay and sell. Yeah, we sometimes talk funny down here in ap uh latch uh.
ROFL
Thanks Local.
How you doing anyway? Hear your weekend didn't get off to a start the way you would have liked.
The Scribe
05-20-2009, 21:08
The distinction is the people set up in the park pay to sell while the people in the campground can't sell.
Are Leap Seconds involved? If so I will never figure it out. :D:D
Desert Reprobate
05-20-2009, 21:38
I think the problem appears to be a lack of consistancy. Festivals out here might run several hundred dollars for a weekend (See naked tasered guy). If everyone on both sides of the question knows the rules there won't be any questions. I wouldn't balk at paying a fee to attend TD. Hope to be there next time.
ROFL
Thanks Local.
How you doing anyway? Hear your weekend didn't get off to a start the way you would have liked.
Thanks for asking, Scribe. Part of the joys of being battery-operated is that sometimes you get jump-started when you least expect it, like talking to a group of volunteers. Thankfully they were good folks and jumped right in to take over everything, while I went to the local electrician to get rewired. Plus I had a scheduled rather galling event Thursday, so it was Saturday before I got back into the game, and then was under my daughters' orders to take it easy. I hope you can avoid these events, but then you're a young chap with decades ahead of you.
The Scribe
05-20-2009, 22:01
Thanks for asking, Scribe. Part of the joys of being battery-operated is that sometimes you get jump-started when you least expect it, like talking to a group of volunteers. Thankfully they were good folks and jumped right in to take over everything, while I went to the local electrician to get rewired. Plus I had a scheduled rather galling event Thursday, so it was Saturday before I got back into the game, and then was under my daughters' orders to take it easy. I hope you can avoid these events, but then you're a young chap with decades ahead of you.
That's good to hear. I never did cross paths with you all weekend.
Battery operated? Were you at the Useless Gear Contest.....Wait. Sorry. Thinking of someone else. :banana:banana:banana
Miss Janet
05-21-2009, 00:39
for every person that bitched about the $5 fee i bet they spent $40 for beer to bring into the campground
The Camping Fee is not the issue and I tried to make that clear. The 5$ "Admission Fee" charged to those already paying to stay in town B&B's, the Place, etc is my real problem. This did keep people from visiting friends in Tent City both day time and night time. I just hate the things that have seperated our different groups into "CAMPS" outside of town, on provate property and away from each other. Divide and Conquer.
The arguement is that this FEE some how magically keeps the local criminal element out of Tent City... There were more locals especially under age local kids allowed in AFTER DARK this year than I ever remember and many of these kids were giving citatations for underage drinking... AFTER they had already been admitted at the gate and paid the 5$. They WALKED in with coolers in some cases! The person intent on stealing hundreds of $$ worth of gear is not going to be deterred by a 5$ fee. The thefts reported this year were in Town where there was a limited police presence.
Miss Janet
05-21-2009, 00:40
folks bitchin' about a $5 fee for 5 days access is ridiculous
NO ONE has complained about 5$ camping... only a 5$ visiting fee!
NO ONE has complained about 5$ camping... only a 5$ visiting fee!
They should change it to a $5 Trail Days fee. One wristband, all events. This should include the gear raffle that Backpacker sponsors as well. The Park would stay free, but any shows, presentations, free food, etc.. should require the wristband.
With this method - everyone pays the $5 - if you camp or if you don't. This is just how ALDHA does it, BTW, and nobody complains about the TEN dollars that they charge for the Gathering.
And while we are at it, it would be very easy to get serious about the underage drinking. Since police sell the wristbands, card everyone and have a different band for over 21 and under 21. Seems like an underage kid drinking to the point of alcohol poisoning is a liability nightmare waiting to happen.
to put a positive spin on it I for one would volunteer my time, tools, experience to work on an organized project to improve/enlarge the bath/shower house, any one else willing to step up also or does everyone prefer nonproductive bitching and bickering ?
The Scribe
05-21-2009, 07:52
They should change it to a $5 Trail Days fee. One wristband, all events. This should include the gear raffle that Backpacker sponsors as well. The Park would stay free, but any shows, presentations, free food, etc.. should require the wristband.
With this method - everyone pays the $5 - if you camp or if you don't. This is just how ALDHA does it, BTW, and nobody complains about the TEN dollars that they charge for the Gathering.
And while we are at it, it would be very easy to get serious about the underage drinking. Since police sell the wristbands, card everyone and have a different band for over 21 and under 21. Seems like an underage kid drinking to the point of alcohol poisoning is a liability nightmare waiting to happen.
Good points Chomp. Miss Janet, sorry if I picked on the $5. I understand your point.
I work a Blues Festival as a volunteer and we do exactly that. Sell wristbands. Under 21 one color, over 21 a different colors. The festival encompasses an entire town with venues all over the place. Need the wristband to get into any of them.
boarstone
05-21-2009, 08:23
Put the event out for bid for a different town/location....then see what happens!
Trillium, for the first several years the town actually lost money in putting on Trail Days. Only in the past few years has the town made a profit, and my understanding is that last year the town "cleared" around twelve thousand or so. But I have been unable to obtain a print-out or understanding of where all the money goes. I will try once again this year to get this and post it in several places, because I think this information would calm down some of the local rumors as to who is profiting. We are a small town and we tend to take sides and talk about the other group a lot; otherwise, things would get really boring around here. We are somewhat like Whiteblaze in that aspect.
I agree with that being one who has been the butt of that talking on more than one occasion.......
NO ONE has complained about 5$ camping... only a 5$ visiting fee!
How many hikers can you fit in a room at the Holiday Inn?
That's why you have a $5 visiting fee - IMO.
NO ONE has complained about 5$ camping... only a 5$ visiting fee!
well they charged me $5 for visiting Friday night and I am not griping about it. however i do not think that they should have turned people away like you said they did.......but of course the police ought to know how many people they can handle in case the crowd decides to get all whooped up from the drum circle and things get out of hand. i do not think this would happen but you got to look at it from their point of view as well.....
I paid my $20.00 to park and camp, had no problems with the police, other hikers, townspeople - heck, even the weather cooperated! This was my first Trail Days. I expect that some folks have a romanticized notion of the "old days". I know that I do regarding other events that I attend yearly. No, it isn't like the "old days", and due to the increasing number of people it isn't likely to be ever again. But it was very enjoyable, and, with the exception that I got very little sleep after driving 800 miles to get there, I loved every minute of it - even all the walking that I had to do (I parked my car and left it for the two days I was there).
It would be nice if some folks from the ATC would volunteer to collect the fees and answer questions. I would if I lived in the area.
The only change I would like to see is a late night quiet curfew (some of us need to sleep). Not anything severe, like a 1:00 AM curfew. Could or would it be enforced? Probably not. No biggy. The world doesn't revolve around me, never has and never will. :)
Lone Wolf
05-21-2009, 09:31
to everybody that has a problem with the fees and how things are run at Trail Days, you are welcome to come to Damascus after the first of the year and get on the TDs committee. it's kinda like bitchin' about the trail but never doing any maintenance
Jim Adams
05-21-2009, 10:26
They should change it to a $5 Trail Days fee. One wristband, all events. This should include the gear raffle that Backpacker sponsors as well. The Park would stay free, but any shows, presentations, free food, etc.. should require the wristband.
With this method - everyone pays the $5 - if you camp or if you don't. This is just how ALDHA does it, BTW, and nobody complains about the TEN dollars that they charge for the Gathering.
And while we are at it, it would be very easy to get serious about the underage drinking. Since police sell the wristbands, card everyone and have a different band for over 21 and under 21. Seems like an underage kid drinking to the point of alcohol poisoning is a liability nightmare waiting to happen.
Great way to do it!
I have no problem with the $5 fee, in fact I feel that it is a bargain but I do have a problem with the inconsistancy of enforcement and the under age consumption. Also the lack of any improvements over the years.
well they charged me $5 for visiting Friday night and I am not griping about it. however i do not think that they should have turned people away like you said they did.......but of course the police ought to know how many people they can handle in case the crowd decides to get all whooped up from the drum circle and things get out of hand. i do not think this would happen but you got to look at it from their point of view as well.....
Actually, if you had someone at the gate selling the wristbands that would actually check ID for drinking age and use the appropriate band color for that age then you could eliminate the expense of the police on duty in the first place. Trail Days has never had any violence in the campground and yet the attitude is that the campers need policed more and more every year. It is total overkill and a wasted expense besides, I have been to "rallies" in the late 60's and early 70's and being a paramedic for 33 years, I've seen my fair share of riots....even with the police presence this year, number for number they still wouldn't stand a chance so obviously that is not the reason for they're presence.
Finally, I'm not saying that Damascus is totally wrong, I'm saying that they need some changes for the positive but as Lone Wolf stated it perfectly... if you want to effect change then be there to help them when it is needed...I'm as guilty as anyone else not from Damascus.
geek
leeki pole
05-21-2009, 11:16
So everybody on this thread is a freaking expert. Guys, I've spent 30 years in the service industry. I have some knowledge how this works. I make some suggestions and all you "experts" shoot them down. Just like the "hikers" that lurk here. I'm out, I gotta go work on a trail this weekend. Happy hiking, and have a nice day. In the South that means something different for the "experts." Hasta la vista.
So everybody on this thread is a freaking expert. Guys, I've spent 30 years in the service industry. I have some knowledge how this works. I make some suggestions and all you "experts" shoot them down. Just like the "hikers" that lurk here. I'm out, I gotta go work on a trail this weekend. Happy hiking, and have a nice day. In the South that means something different for the "experts." Hasta la vista.
The good folks in the Town of Damascus should understand that gear manufacturers like Leki have a marketing budget, and regardless of whether or not they are selling gear, paying $200 to setup in the campground is essentially a non-issue. This is an exceptional opportunity to market their service, and build brand allegiance with an influential group- AT thru-hikers. Whether the Town decides to charge or not is up to them. But $200 is less than the retail cost of 2 pairs of their high end poles.
The cottage industry folks are a different story.
Visitor, Camper, what's the difference. Just pay the $5 once, then come and go as you please, right? Why pay to get in each time you visit?
The good folks in the Town of Damascus should understand that gear manufacturers like Leki have a marketing budget, and regardless of whether or not they are selling gear, paying $200 to setup in the campground is essentially a non-issue. This is an exceptional opportunity to market their service, and build brand allegiance with an influential group- AT thru-hikers. Whether the Town decides to charge or not is up to them. But $200 is less than the retail cost of 2 pairs of their high end poles.
The cottage industry folks are a different story.
Its not about the money, its about the slap in the fact. If gear reps want to come and provide free services to hikers, they should be allowed to do so for free. Sure, they get great PR out of the deal - but bottom line is that they are not collecting money and that what they bring to the table is a positive for Trail Days.
How many people do you talk to about TDs and hear "yea, looking forward to it. Plus I can't wait to get my bent leki pole fixed!"? Having the gear reps there adds value to TDs - they should not be charged for provide that service, IMO.
Put the event out for bid for a different town/location....then see what happens!
Sort of like ALDHA's Gathering in October each year, which moves around to different towns in NH, PA, and WV?
Might be onto something! Not to take anything away from the friendly town of Damascus, but it might be fun to have different towns host Trail Days. Of course that would require an independent group, not aligned with any specific town, to take responsibility for Trail Days. Like that's gonna happen! :rolleyes:
Its not about the money, its about the slap in the fact. If gear reps want to come and provide free services to hikers, they should be allowed to do so for free. Sure, they get great PR out of the deal - but bottom line is that they are not collecting money and that what they bring to the table is a positive for Trail Days.
How many people do you talk to about TDs and hear "yea, looking forward to it. Plus I can't wait to get my bent leki pole fixed!"? Having the gear reps there adds value to TDs - they should not be charged for provide that service, IMO.
I have had a pair of poles fixed by Leki at Trail Days. For that I am grateful.
We'll have to agree to disagree Chomp. That's all. It's not a respect thing. Its a business thing. Anyway, this is a local decision. If the Trails Day committee wants to give away spaces that they could get revenue from, that is their choice. And I respect that.
Happy Hiking!
Lone Wolf
05-21-2009, 12:53
Its not about the money, its about the slap in the fact. If gear reps want to come and provide free services to hikers, they should be allowed to do so for free. Sure, they get great PR out of the deal - but bottom line is that they are not collecting money and that what they bring to the table is a positive for Trail Days.
How many people do you talk to about TDs and hear "yea, looking forward to it. Plus I can't wait to get my bent leki pole fixed!"? Having the gear reps there adds value to TDs - they should not be charged for provide that service, IMO.
they DO use water and electricity though.
I think for $5 or less you shouldn't be able to fuss about how they decide to run things.
For $10 or more, the priviledge to do so should be included in the price, but not for $5.
Now if your a local you are entitled to complain about everything whether you pay $5 or not.
So there it is. That should be the final word.
But of course I've never been there, so I'm a little more objective in these matters. :D
BAG "o" TRICKS
05-21-2009, 13:56
Miss Janet,
I think that your criticisms are legitimate. I was not, have not, and will not stay in the campground myself. I'm just not into the late night revelry that I hear about, but for those who enjoy that, fine, HYOH. I did come to the campground area on Saturday early evening to see the Footpath display across the street and see the vendors/manufacturers. I was not asked to pay the $10 parking fee, and did not see anyone collecting, but the sign alone almost turned me away. Likewise, when I entered the campground, I was not asked to pay a gate fee, but as I walked past the officers at the entrance, I got the "feeling" that I was somehow trespassing. If I had been asked to pay a $5 fee, as your post explains that others did have to do, I would not have entered.
I have no problem with the town earning revenue from the event. They should. The t-shirt sales, booth rental fees, and even a modest camping fee to use the campground do seem fair. Charging to park -- and only at that one lot -- and charging a gate fee to walk into the campground does seem to be way over the top.
All that said, as you stated in your post, Trail Days was and is a wonderful and fun event, and overall the town does an amazing job with it. I have been to 5 out of the past 6 and hope to attend many more!
Tripp
It's a once a year event and there going to make the most from it, or should I say us.
d'shadow
05-21-2009, 14:33
A small fee which we were glad to pay. Consider the town has to pay for overtime for police. The expense of cleaning up the campground after everyone has left. I would have been glad to pay more. Silly to complain about a small fee when everyone must have spent much more on the beer that was flowing around the campground.
Here's an article in the local paper:
http://www.swvatoday.com/comments/trail_town_expands/
Look at the arrest stats. Very interesting, but even more interesting is this remark by Chief Nunley: "....made 13 arrests – mostly for disorderly conduct, possession of narcotics and a few for possessing moonshine. Only a couple were hikers, Nunley said. “Most arrests that were made, they (the hikers) reported it to us,” he said."
Again, the local folks came out and got arrested. This is becoming an annual tradition.
I sent this Whiteblaze link to Tuesday, the town clerk, and asked her to show this discussion to Chief Nunley. She went into his office and he was on Whiteblaze, reading this thread. Hey, Chief, good work!
Chaco Taco
05-21-2009, 17:07
So everybody on this thread is a freaking expert. Guys, I've spent 30 years in the service industry. I have some knowledge how this works. I make some suggestions and all you "experts" shoot them down. Just like the "hikers" that lurk here. I'm out, I gotta go work on a trail this weekend. Happy hiking, and have a nice day. In the South that means something different for the "experts." Hasta la vista.
http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/sametime/v8r0/topic/com.ibm.help.sametime.mobile.doc/crying.gif Im sorry Leki but you need to stop whining
Jester2000
05-21-2009, 19:56
WOW, just WOW. you are obviously not an accountant much less a CPA. . . I have to believe . . . What should be happening is . . .The proceeds likely go . . .I would not expect . . .But then I am not privy to . . . has to be . . . there may or may not be . . . I don't know how often . . . Does Damascus prepare a Comprehensive Annual Financial Report?
I condensed your very long post down to the parts where you make note of the fact that you don't know anything about the particulars of what actually happens, only what should be happening. Is that how CPAs work? I think part of the problem here is that some people would like to know more about the particulars, and have some transparency.
But bigger still is the $5 fee and how it is applied. Several of us went down to the campground for Billville's Useless Gear Contest. One group of three walked in uncontested. No $5. The other three, at about the same time, had to cough up the money.
Okay, even I've got to admit that that's not worth five dollars.
Put the event out for bid for a different town/location....then see what happens!
I think what might happen is that the Town of Damascus, which holds the event, would say, "who are you and why are you putting our event out for bid?"
. . .I'm out, I gotta go work on a trail this weekend. Happy hiking, and have a nice day. In the South that means something different for the "experts." Hasta la vista.
Um, okay, Senor Sensitive (in Harpers Ferry that means the same thing for experts and non-experts alike).
The cottage industry folks are a different story.
Who gets to be the arbiter of who qualifies as "cottage industry?" If it's me then I'd be fine with that.
Who gets to be the arbiter of who qualifies as "cottage industry?" If it's me then I'd be fine with that.
Sliding scale. Honor system.
Jester2000
05-21-2009, 20:10
I do want to add, particularly if the chief is actually reading this thread, that 82 parking tickets does seem excessive, particularly insofar as many seemed to have been issued in places that were not signed as "No Parking" areas.
In years past, when people who were unloading in the campground had their vehicles in a "camping only" area for what the police deemed to be overlong, an effort was made to notify the owners and have the cars moved before tickets were issued. This year I saw officers ticketing cars with no effort made to have the cars moved first.
An effort to have the cars removed seems to be the way to go if the point is to maintain an orderly, safe camping area (those who remember the parking chaos of the first year in the campground will appreciate this). Immediate ticketing smacks more of an effort to collect revenue, unless the theory is that those ticketed will know better next year.
Overall I appreciate the efforts of the various police agencies and sheriff's department officers, although conflicting directions from officers and differing levels of enforcement of the rules perhaps point to the need for more detailed meetings between the various agencies pre-Trail Days.
http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/sametime/v8r0/topic/com.ibm.help.sametime.mobile.doc/crying.gif Im sorry Leki but you need to stop whining
Hey Chaco
leeki is not Leki...
I am the Leki guy. :D
Have any of you ever been out hiking on a different trail and decided that you would like to take a rest in a town but you did not want to pay for a motel and so you stop into a local RV park to see about setting up your tent?
That $5 fee ain't crap, I have paid as much as $30 to set up in a RV park and there was no police presence either.
In fact I think the town ought to charge a bit more.
I know the fee is not the issue here, but I am just saying.
Rockhound
05-22-2009, 09:19
I would just like to know how to get invited to the poker game the cops have after they have collected all the money from hikers. TOW mentioned something about it earlier. Did you sit in or just watch? Seems I might be able to pay for an entire thru-hike if I could get in on that game.
Jim Adams
05-22-2009, 11:17
Have any of you ever been out hiking on a different trail and decided that you would like to take a rest in a town but you did not want to pay for a motel and so you stop into a local RV park to see about setting up your tent?
That $5 fee ain't crap, I have paid as much as $30 to set up in a RV park and there was no police presence either.
In fact I think the town ought to charge a bit more.
I know the fee is not the issue here, but I am just saying.
True! I've also paid $25-$30 just to set my tent up in an RV park...then I went to the campground store bought snacks and drinks, went to their pool swam and hung out all day and then took a hot shower in their clean shower room and used their clean indoor rest rooms....yeah, $30 dollars is a bit excessive for tenting but.....the RV park and the TD's campground are NOT comparable!
geek
geek
Jim Adams
05-22-2009, 11:27
I really don't have a problem with the $5 fee, I just wish that I got something for my money other than un-needed over protection and a lumpy tent site in a hazzaedous waste dump. The police were very polite all weekend and trust me, I work hand in hand with them everyday as a paramedic and I do understand how difficult their job can be but they simply weren't needed in the quanities provided. I would much rather see the wages saved and put into improvements in the campground.
Also if the ticketed cars were in a marked area instead of unmarked and no one knowing where and where not to park, then the outcome would have been more justified.
geek
neighbor dave
05-22-2009, 11:28
:-? i think there should be a 1 time fee for hikin' the A.T., say 500 bucks, then you can hike it as much as you want.
by the way, i'm havin' a party this summer, it'll be 1 week long, just send me 500 bucks and you can come and stay for the week. of course we'll have police security finger printin you and a thorough background check after you've paid the admission fee.:-?
Lone Wolf
05-22-2009, 13:44
I really don't have a problem with the $5 fee, I just wish that I got something for my money other than un-needed over protection and a lumpy tent site in a hazzaedous waste dump. The police were very polite all weekend and trust me, I work hand in hand with them everyday as a paramedic and I do understand how difficult their job can be but they simply weren't needed in the quanities provided. I would much rather see the wages saved and put into improvements in the campground.
Also if the ticketed cars were in a marked area instead of unmarked and no one knowing where and where not to park, then the outcome would have been more justified.
geek
sounds like you need to stay elsewhere if you come next year. i'm assuming you didn't use a porta-john or the flush toilets and shower or throw trash in a dumpster
superman
05-22-2009, 13:56
There are alternatives. I stay in Abingdon for a little over $100 a night with lots of good restaurants in the area. The tv has Animal Planet 24/7. Just sayen...
Lone Wolf
05-22-2009, 14:18
$100 a night? you got taken
d'shadow
05-22-2009, 14:49
There are alternatives. I stay in Abingdon for a little over $100 a night with lots of good restaurants in the area. The tv has Animal Planet 24/7. Just sayen...
I was with a hiking friend who has experience with Trail Days and we stayed in Abingdon. I don't understand why you had to pay so much for a motel room. Days inn was very inexpensive and the rooms were very nice.
If I come again, it would be nice to stay at a B&B in Damascus, but they fill up very quickly. You might want to call around next time and get a better rate.
Red Wolf
05-22-2009, 14:57
$ !0 to park to see a " FREE " art show.......IS THIS NEW YORK ?
Larry Luxenberg and I intended to see the art show across the road from the entrance to the encampment UNTIL we discovered the un-advertised cost of parking ! ( ----and he's from New York and thought it was an OUTRAGE ! ) .
A far , far CRY from the days of tenting - by - river ....we were run out of there because of " money in the eyes " of the Old Mill developers ---see where that place is now ? DEFUNCT & OUT OF BUSINESS. .....MAYBE A LESSON HERE DAMASCUS .
---Red Wolf o'da Smoky's
Lone Wolf
05-22-2009, 15:11
$ !0 to park to see a " FREE " art show.......IS THIS NEW YORK ?
Larry Luxenberg and I intended to see the art show across the road from the entrance to the encampment UNTIL we discovered the un-advertised cost of parking ! ( ----and he's from New York and thought it was an OUTRAGE ! ) .
A far , far CRY from the days of tenting - by - river ....we were run out of there because of " money in the eyes " of the Old Mill developers ---see where that place is now ? DEFUNCT & OUT OF BUSINESS. .....MAYBE A LESSON HERE DAMASCUS .
---Red Wolf o'da Smoky's
the art show and the parking had nothing to do with each other. the $10 parking fee was for anyone regardless if they were there to see the show. you could have taken the shuttle bus for free to the show.
nobody was "run out" of the river area because of "money in the eyes" of developers. Trail Days has grown too large for any tenting down by the river. fact. pure and simple.
things and times change. you and everyone else need to deal with it or stop coming to Damascus for Trail Days
$100 a night? you got taken
Motel rooms near Exit 19 off I-81 in Abingdon were going for around $40 or $50 earlier in the week. But Friday 5/15 and Saturday 5/16 prices were nearly doubled at some motels. Supply and demand.
With tax it is indeed possible one could have paid about $100 for a room on 5/15 and 5/16 at Abingdon. That would have been the norm, tho I agree there were some motels that would have been cheaper.
mweinstone
05-22-2009, 15:56
yall weird. wolf good. heart straining. him not like evil cheapys.best you park and pay me thinks. and if you really still need to be weird. why not protest and pay with two two dollar bills and a one taped together. or . simularryly, pennies make your point well that you are a cop hater. and lets not forget the all important gate crash. do it! then you can wreasle with a cop of your choice. me? ill pay with a fin and then help clean up. in between standin around with wolf playin"yep/nope" who gets to maine.
.
A far , far CRY from the days of tenting - by - river ....we were run out of there because of " money in the eyes " of the Old Mill developers ---see where that place is now ? DEFUNCT & OUT OF BUSINESS. .....MAYBE A LESSON HERE DAMASCUS .
---Red Wolf o'da Smoky's
Dennis & Mary were good folks who got taken & run out of town. Damascus is poorer as a result - in my opinion.
Lone Wolf
05-22-2009, 16:26
Dennis & Mary were good folks who got taken & run out of town.
THAT is nowhere near the truth. mary was good
Jack Tarlin
05-22-2009, 16:38
Stayed outta this one til now.
Regarding Dennis being "run out of town", Mowgli is extraordinarily ill-informed.
Regarding the people complaining about excessive costs at Trail Days, well Miss Janet has made some valid points: The cost of the festival should be shared more equally, i.e., not just the overnighting hikers should pay for it. And there should absolutely be more understanding ahead of time by all the law enforcement folks as to what constitutes legal parking. There should certainly be more signage so that folks have a better idea of where it is illegal to park. The folks who said there need to be better services (i.e. more showers, hot water, etc.) have made good arguments.
Lastly, tho, two things: There's nothing wrong with charging fees to attend Trail Days.....it costs a lot of money to run this thing, and folks need to realize this, especially those who somehow manage to spend all sorts of money each year on beer. And a lot of the complainers would do better if they tried to contact Damascus folks (with letters, etc.) or better yet, if they tried to actually sit in on Trail Days planning meetings well before the event. Venting on the Internet makes people feel better for a few minutes, but in terms of actually accomplishing anything concrete, it's pretty much a waste of time.
THAT is nowhere near the truth. mary was good
Whatever. But the Hobo crowd which you were a part of had an orchestrated campaign against the Old Mill. That's a fact.
Lone Wolf
05-22-2009, 18:12
Whatever. But the Hobo crowd which you were a part of had an orchestrated campaign against the Old Mill. That's a fact.
huh? explain that one. what orchestrated campaign? i'm friends with dennis's partner still to this day. you're FOS
huh? explain that one. what orchestrated campaign? i'm friends with dennis's partner still to this day. you're FOS
I will admit that I don't have the whole story, but I am not imagining that there was lots of complaining about what happened at the Old Mill online. Folks saying that they wouldn't patronize the place because it was too fancy for Damascus. Ruined the camping. And on & on. I am not imagining that. Not one bit. And you know it.
Lone Wolf
05-22-2009, 18:43
I will admit that I prolly don't have the whole story, but I am not imagining that there was lots of complaining about what happened at the Old Mill online. Folks saying that they wouldn't patronize the place because it was too fancy for Damascus. Ruined the camping. And on & on. I am not imagining that. Not one bit. And you know it.
i spent a lot of time and money in the place from the start. i really have no idea what the hell you're talkin' about. post some links or shut up
i spent a lot of time and money in the place from the start. i really have no idea what the hell you're talkin' about. post some links or shut up
OK. I'll shut up.
Jim Adams
05-22-2009, 19:29
sounds like you need to stay elsewhere if you come next year. i'm assuming you didn't use a porta-john or the flush toilets and shower or throw trash in a dumpster
Actually I did use a porta john once but no flush toilet, shower or dumpster. I love camping in tent city, I just think that it can be better.
geek
Jester2000
05-22-2009, 19:43
Whatever. But the Hobo crowd which you were a part of had an orchestrated campaign against the Old Mill. That's a fact.
It's not often you see "Hobo crowd" and "orchestrated" in the same sentence.
superman
05-22-2009, 20:26
Motel rooms near Exit 19 off I-81 in Abingdon were going for around $40 or $50 earlier in the week. But Friday 5/15 and Saturday 5/16 prices were nearly doubled at some motels. Supply and demand.
With tax it is indeed possible one could have paid about $100 for a room on 5/15 and 5/16 at Abingdon. That would have been the norm, tho I agree there were some motels that would have been cheaper.
Yes, you're right. I think I paid $105. I was satisfied with the room. I've paid a lot more in other places for a similar room. I was just pointing out that folks don't have to do the Spartan hiker thing. There are other alternatives. I've done all that Spartan stuff and I don't hesitate to get a nice room and a good meal. I see hiking as my reward...not my punishment.
Lone Wolf
05-22-2009, 22:19
I love camping in tent city, I just think that it can be better.
you, like most others on this thread, come here for 3 or 4 days a year, bitch and complain then leave. hikers are the most ungrateful and cheapest group of people i've ever been around. Creeper Trail bike riders on the other hand spend lots of cash and hardly ever complain. if the AT were ever rerouted 30 miles from town the hikers wouldn't be missed and would in no way suffer financially. y'all should thank god for the work the Methodist church and Baptist church do for hikers. they are much greater and nicer than i. even when they're pooed on.
Chaco Taco
05-22-2009, 22:26
Hey Chaco
leeki is not Leki...
I am the Leki guy. :D
:D
Sorry for the mixup
Chaco Taco
05-22-2009, 22:33
$ !0 to park to see a " FREE " art show.......IS THIS NEW YORK ?
Larry Luxenberg and I intended to see the art show across the road from the entrance to the encampment UNTIL we discovered the un-advertised cost of parking ! ( ----and he's from New York and thought it was an OUTRAGE ! ) .
A far , far CRY from the days of tenting - by - river ....we were run out of there because of " money in the eyes " of the Old Mill developers ---see where that place is now ? DEFUNCT & OUT OF BUSINESS. .....MAYBE A LESSON HERE DAMASCUS .
---Red Wolf o'da Smoky's
Yea you gotta get your stories straight before you start flailin accusations. You have legs, you are a hiker, park somewhere and walk. Be lucky the owner of that building opened that lot up and charged $5 less than to park in the campground. Yea and if you miss the good ole days, then dont bother goin anymore. Buncha complainin ass hikers on this thread, nothin aint never good enough for you guys! Sorry guys, the days of things bein totally free are over! :rolleyes:
Jester2000
05-22-2009, 23:27
you, like most others on this thread, come here for 3 or 4 days a year, bitch and complain then leave. hikers are the most ungrateful and cheapest group of people i've ever been around. Creeper Trail bike riders on the other hand spend lots of cash and hardly ever complain. if the AT were ever rerouted 30 miles from town the hikers wouldn't be missed and would in no way suffer financially. y'all should thank god for the work the Methodist church and Baptist church do for hikers. they are much greater and nicer than i. even when they're pooed on.
Thorazine.
Lone Wolf
05-22-2009, 23:28
Thorazine.
for.........?
Jester2000
05-22-2009, 23:30
for.........?
Everybody! Woo hoo!
I would just like to know how to get invited to the poker game the cops have after they have collected all the money from hikers. TOW mentioned something about it earlier. Did you sit in or just watch? Seems I might be able to pay for an entire thru-hike if I could get in on that game.
How do you think I am financing my thru hike for next year?
Dennis & Mary were good folks who got taken & run out of town. Damascus is poorer as a result - in my opinion.
I think you need to do some more research on this matter........
OK. I'll shut up.
Well!:D:D:D
chiefduffy
05-23-2009, 07:37
hikers are the most ungrateful and cheapest group of people i've ever been around.
I hope that don't apply to all of us. I had a great time, love Damascus and love the TD vibe. WhiteBlaze tends to gives voice to a lot of bitching by a few people. Al the hikers I talked to at TD were very grateful, especially for the churches.
-Duffy
Lone Wolf
05-23-2009, 07:38
I hope that don't apply to all of us. I had a great time, love Damascus and love the TD vibe. WhiteBlaze tends to gives voice to a lot of bitching by a few people. Al the hikers I talked to at TD were very grateful, especially for the churches.
-Duffyno it doesn't apply to you. you were very generous when i shuttled y'all. it's mainly thru-hikers
I do want to add, particularly if the chief is actually reading this thread, that 82 parking tickets does seem excessive, particularly insofar as many seemed to have been issued in places that were not signed as "No Parking" areas.
In years past, when people who were unloading in the campground had their vehicles in a "camping only" area for what the police deemed to be overlong, an effort was made to notify the owners and have the cars moved before tickets were issued. This year I saw officers ticketing cars with no effort made to have the cars moved first.
An effort to have the cars removed seems to be the way to go if the point is to maintain an orderly, safe camping area (those who remember the parking chaos of the first year in the campground will appreciate this). Immediate ticketing smacks more of an effort to collect revenue, unless the theory is that those ticketed will know better next year.
Overall I appreciate the efforts of the various police agencies and sheriff's department officers, although conflicting directions from officers and differing levels of enforcement of the rules perhaps point to the need for more detailed meetings between the various agencies pre-Trail Days.
I had some of my camping mates go to bat for me a couple of times when I left my car near my tent. I kept my cooler in the car at night and wo uld drop it off in the morning and pick it up at night with it.
Once I was down at the stream taking a quick dip, another time I was getting water from the restroom faucet for cooking. If my friends weren't there, I would likely have gotten a ticket. Thanks.
no it doesn't apply to you. you were very generous when i shuttled y'all. it's mainly thru-hikers
Hopefully most of the "bad" thruhikers will "get it" eventually and repay the kindness of others, expecting less and giving more. I'm sure those who are thoughtless and unthankful don't see themselves that way. They need a checkup from the neck up.
I don't think The Trail changes people.
I think it's other people who change people.
restless
05-23-2009, 09:45
Wasn't able to make it to TD this year due to other plans but let me add my $0.02. In Fayetteville WV, each year at the same time as TD, there is an event called the New River Rendezvous, basically a TD for the climbing community. A registration fee is paid, usually in advance. This gives the organizers an idea of how many will be in attendance. The event is held on NPS property and has received strong support from the NPS. For the fee, a person gets everything-camping, eats, gear reps, climbing events/presentations, even free beer and wine. The organizers have promoted a "no waste" policy. They have tried to minimize the amount of trash and all the attendees cooperated. Locals come out to hang usually on Sat night, and in the three years I have attended there has been low drama. Perhaps the locals could get more proactive in TD and take some of the responsibility out of the hands of the city. Not sure that an advance registration would work, especially when you take into consideration the current thru hikers for that particular year. A one time , covers everything fee with an wrist band might make having to pay a fee less contentious. Limit the number of drive ins. When parking is full no one else gets in. TD is an event that constantly changes each year and people need to learn from the mistakes of the previous year. If you are goin' to bitch about a fee for all that you get at Trail Days, stay home. If you want to know what the money is used for, if it's that important to you, contact city hall. The days of a free Trail Days are over but i'm sure that those involved with it can and will work to make it better in the future.
The Scribe
05-23-2009, 11:39
Okay, even I've got to admit that that's not worth five dollars.
Jester, I will always pay the $5 just for your MCing of the contest. :D
Let me show U mine!:banana
Local pointed out that he thought the town had cleared 12,000+- last year. Sounds greedy then to raise prices. Cover your cost, make some improvements,- but line your pockets?...:(
It also sounds like there are different rules applied for another large event held in Damascus.:confused:
12 undercover cops - 82 parking tickets - increased prices but not services kinda makes one wonder if there is another motive. Naw, money / windfall would never be considered.:rolleyes:
I don't think price is the issue here, rather the why, where and how- money is collected and used. :-?
Finally, if you are all about keeping your head in the sand, and not raising reasonable questions or expecting reasonable answers- you may consider moving to another country that encourages you to do so. ;)
IMO, $5 to camp 3-4 nights is nothing. For those that aren't camping and want to visit consider it a Trail Days fee.
If there wasn't $15 fee to park at the campground, there would be no room to park. If anything they should close the parking after the 1st 100 cars or whatever the lot can reasonably hold. Giving parking tickets to cars that already paid to park in areas that weren't posted "no parking" was over the top.
IMO, $5 to camp 3-4 nights is nothing. For those that aren't camping and want to visit consider it a Trail Days fee.
If there wasn't $15 fee to park at the campground, there would be no room to park. If anything they should close the parking after the 1st 100 cars or whatever the lot can reasonably hold. Giving parking tickets to cars that already paid to park in areas that weren't posted "no parking" was over the top.
Again, the amount here IS NOT the issue and to avoid that by harping on a non issue like the amount is kinka like calling people names. Jab, juke...dance:rolleyes: Charge 30 for a spot in daDump and I'll call it a bargain. But why not show where the money goes? Why not have a policy that is well thought out and enforced like any other such gathering in Damascus? Spend a few bucks on no parking signs if that's such a problem. And instead of going out of the way to (undercover) police peaceful people use that money on a coordinator as Local suggested. Show where the money is used, improvements made, long term/ short term goals. Consider a budget, donate back to the churches, etc. Good always has room for better. Indifference, not so much...:-?
trailangelmary
05-23-2009, 21:45
I have just read all 7 pages and would love to quote some but don't want to go back and find them so consider that in reading my response.. I see points made I like and some I question.
Lone Wolf, Gypsy. The Only Wanderer, Local, Pirate, Wonder and others like 03ers Trace and 1/3 are all residents of Damascus and know more about the planning, preparation, costs than any of us. However, simply put, it is a festival put on by the town of Damascus. It is not just for the AT hikers past, present and future but a lot of it is geared for them. You can not move a festival to somewhere else when it is done by that town. Want to try to do it better! Show me!!! Replace it you can't. It is Trail Days in Damascus, VA.
I am grateful to the town and the planners for inviting me into their town for a great weekend. I think it is just plain silly to gripe about $15 per car or $5 per person to enter the campground. I had some people tell me they will NOT pay $5 to enter the campground and that is their choice. Oh well, sorry about their luck. They do not know the fun they missed. And the hugs they missed!
To respond to the reason the $5 fee was started. I understand that it has not been apparent that the reasons are showing in results. But as time goes on financial needs change. But to ask the hosting town to show us a financial report is ridiculous. If you have to ask the price of something on the menu you can't afford it!
I do not totally agree with some things I saw at Trail Days this year but I imagine any large event I would go to I would feel the same. I encourage any town officials good luck next year and any one who can arrive early or attend planning meetings that is involved with the trail family to do so. It is a grand undertaking.
God willing, I will be there next year.
you, like most others on this thread, come here for 3 or 4 days a year, bitch and complain then leave. hikers are the most ungrateful and cheapest group of people i've ever been around. Creeper Trail bike riders on the other hand spend lots of cash and hardly ever complain. if the AT were ever rerouted 30 miles from town the hikers wouldn't be missed and would in no way suffer financially. y'all should thank god for the work the Methodist church and Baptist church do for hikers. they are much greater and nicer than i. even when they're pooed on.
Bpitt quickly steps into the foray to shout out 'thanks' for recognizing the local churches! Woot!
Okay, bpitt now leaves the room.
Ya know, accountability of public funds from a public event is such a bad ideal. And wheres my manners. I want the politicians to love me!:o A plan w/ everyone on the same page? What were we haters thinkin???:-?
From now on I'll be bad mouthing anyone w/ a suggestion and twisting things back to 5 bucks. I'm smart like that.:rolleyes:
you, like most others on this thread, come here for 3 or 4 days a year, bitch and complain then leave. hikers are the most ungrateful and cheapest group of people i've ever been around.
I don't think that is a fair assessment of hikers in general. I'm sure not in that crowd. But that don't bother me because I don't think you are a qualified judge.
Lone Wolf
05-24-2009, 02:02
I don't think that is a fair assessment of hikers in general. I'm sure not in that crowd. But that don't bother me because I don't think you are a qualified judge.
i am a very qualified judge. especially since i've lived in a trail town for 8 years and see the daily crap these thru-hikers pull. you have no idea
Jim Adams
05-24-2009, 02:50
you, like most others on this thread, come here for 3 or 4 days a year, bitch and complain then leave. hikers are the most ungrateful and cheapest group of people i've ever been around. Creeper Trail bike riders on the other hand spend lots of cash and hardly ever complain. if the AT were ever rerouted 30 miles from town the hikers wouldn't be missed and would in no way suffer financially. y'all should thank god for the work the Methodist church and Baptist church do for hikers. they are much greater and nicer than i. even when they're pooed on.
I don't come to Damascus for 3 or 4 days a year and then bitch and complain. I have come through town several times a year for the past few years. I always stop for purchases in MRO and Dot's. I have been to 18 TD's counting this year. I have ALWAYS spent a good amount of money in Damascus, always been thoughtful and kind to the residents and thanked them for all of the good times and I have always had fun. My complaint isn't about fees but the lack of improvements over the years and the inconsistancy of regulations.
BTW, I have only been to Damascus one time as a Creeper Trail rider. I was in a group of about 30 riders...we finished our ride and was driven to Abingdon for supper and motel rooms...that trip was the least amount of money that I had ever spent in Damascus. I have been around the bicycling community for 25 years as my son used to race mountain bikes professionally...bicyclers as a whole are pretty ignorant of peoples feelings and couldn't compare to the generousity of hikers.
geek
I have been around the bicycling community for 25 years as my son used to race mountain bikes professionally...bicyclers as a whole are pretty ignorant of peoples feelings and couldn't compare to the generousity of hikers.
geekI definetly will agree with that, some in that group come across as elitists..........
i am a very qualified judge. especially since i've lived in a trail town for 8 years and see the daily crap these thru-hikers pull. you have no idea
Maybe I took it too personal. I apologize. I know that you see all the crap that goes on in D and from what I've read a few people do step out of line and make us all look bad. But I think you are letting that bias your opinion. If you look at the broader picture I think hopefully you will agree that there are a lot of very nice, polite, well mannered hikers who walk the streets of D. I saw them last year. People like The Lady and the Tramp, Steady-on, Willing & Abel and a host of others who's names I can't remember passed thru your town practically unnoticed, but they spent money there. I spent over $100.00 myself and stayed for free with Roy.
Here's something I think about: Maybe, just maybe, the good news of D being a pro-hiker friendly town causes a lot of the problem. Looking at it from a hikers perspective, I think that a lot of thru-hikers who have been on the trail for several weeks are tired, worn out and have been subsisting on meager trail food. A lot of them do not have a lot of money. They are looking for respite, rest, and letting themselves go for 24 hours. They've heard about D and are anticipating it. It's easy for me to see those people getting a little too loose. They are mostly young, like we were once, and they tend to forget their manners.
And about being cheap. Yeah, the trail does that to you. It made me frugal, but not cheap. LDH'ers are used to getting a lot of free stuff compared to what they get in their normal life and it's only human nature to begin to look for that. The Trail magic, free rides into town for resupply spoils us. Me included. Sometimes in our search for free stuff we get too bold and we rub 'normal' people the wrong way. That shouldn't happen but it does.
I think if I could give advice to the younger hikers it would be to say that remember.....when you are away from home you need to always be aware that you are a guest of someone, and not always an invited guest. Use manners, be polite and be thankful. These towns that the AT or any other trail passes thru was not put there for your convenience. The towns are there because the local people built it for their use, convenience and safety. The trail just happens to go there. You are a guest. Act like it, because when you leave town you are not forgotten. The impression you make, good or bad affects us all.
Always think of yourself as an ambassabor for your home, community, state, country. We are all judged by what you do. And I don't like someone making me look bad. So do good. It's important.
Now I have to leave to go the Chatt. to see my grandson for a couple of days.
Have a great day.
I do not share the same view totally with Lone Wolf, however I understand where he is coming from.
On the whole, and I can only speak from my corner of Damascus, I view the hiking community as a pretty good bunch of folk. But what really stands out amongst those few that I have encountered here are the ones that want a free ride so to speak.
What I have come to realize is that these people are regulars, I mean they come here every year or they have since I have lived here. There is one chap that since I have put the phone out has been here for the last three TD's that gets on the phone and just stays on it. This year he would not get off when it was obvious that there were others wanting to use the phone, not until I told him too. And then when I was not around he would be right back on it.
Then being the person that I am I do get a lot of the homeless hikers, and I mean the real homeless hikers, they come to me looking for help like work, money, food and so on. And for the most part I help them, however there are only two that I do not.
Lone Wolf has been here longer than I, but there is no way that I view hikers as a whole as being free loaders. I can tell you numerous stories where I hae reached out a hand of friendship only to have one extended back to me more awesome than I could have given. And to listen to some of these youngin's tell me of their adventure is just pure pleasure, I love a good story. In fact here is a good story that I think all of you should enjoy, plus the young man is an excellent photographer........http://drewslongwalk.tumblr.com/
This is what I look for in others. We all have BS about us and there are only a tiny few that come here and expect us to wait on them head, hand, and foot. No, I see most who come here who want to be a part of this unique community for a day, maybe three and who want to give to us.
Anyway............
Not long ago I read a editorial from an org out west. Seems anyone who walks, or once walked, just must be, has to be, a good person. :confused: The sand is really soft out there.:) There are plenty of not so good people who hike or have hiked and if your around hikers all the time (instead of a couple of weekends a year)...its easy to remember and pick out the self serving jerks that tend to stand out and stick in your mind.:( I'm not impressed by the ability to walk, anywho.:eek: After all, the trail is the real world too. :-?
Lone Wolf
05-24-2009, 21:09
( I'm not impressed by the ability to walk, anywho.:eek: After all, the trail is the real world too. :-?
it IS JUST walkin' except for the occaisional stunt hiker (blind, deaf, crazy, crippled, etc.) none of them warrant special treatment
it IS JUST walkin' ....
Yeah and I'm glad I got my walking in when I could.
A couple days ago I could barely manage to hike 9 miles per day for two days. Not sure what's up but it's not pretty. Hopefully, I'll do better this week.
Lone Wolf
05-24-2009, 21:26
Sly. please go get some tests done
Chaco Taco
05-24-2009, 21:28
Sly. please go get some tests done
Seriously, please Sly!
Sly. please go get some tests done
I suppose I should, but I'm not sure how to go about it. I've been to the doctor like twice in my life. Once for the Vietnam draft and once for a check up when I had health insurance for a year a couple years ago.
PS I did see a naturopathic doctor in AZ about a month ago but didn't get any good answers. I do have a list of the tests he suggested.
Cookerhiker
05-24-2009, 21:30
it IS JUST walkin' except for the occaisional stunt hiker (..., crazy,.....etc.) none of them warrant special treatment
Don't a lot of us meet that criteria? :D
Lone Wolf
05-24-2009, 21:30
I do not share the same view totally with Lone Wolf, however I understand where he is coming from.
Lone Wolf has been here longer than I, but there is no way that I view hikers as a whole as being free loaders.
just 50% this year are freeloaders at least from bob peoples prospective. he said only half the hikers left the measly $4 in his box this year. they needed to save the $$$ for beer in damascus :rolleyes:
Cookerhiker
05-24-2009, 21:31
Sly. please go get some tests done
Seriously, please Sly!
Yes Sly - gotta take care of yourself.
Lone Wolf
05-24-2009, 21:31
Don't a lot of us meet that criteria? :D
no. walkin' is hardly crazy. god gave us big ass legs with muscles for that reason
Yes Sly - gotta take care of yourself.
Trying. I did quit smoking for a month but slipped the past two days. Back to no smoking later tonight.
trailangelmary
05-25-2009, 07:29
Yes Sly - gotta take care of yourself.
I ditto that, Sly. Go get the tests done. Find a free clinic if you don't have insurance
sly. Please Go Get Some Tests Done
Like Now Sly!
just 50% this year are freeloaders at least from bob peoples prospective. he said only half the hikers left the measly $4 in his box this year. they needed to save the $$$ for beer in damascus :rolleyes:
:D
Well now lets look at that from another perspective. If I know Bob right, and this is just from past experience, Bob has a tendency to tell some don't worry about it. And when hikers don't worry about it then.........?
I did a little experiment here at my place with the donation thing during TD's, on Saturday I placed a note so those who were using the phone saw that I needed money. The money started flowing into the bucket. I took the note away and the money slowly slowed back to its original flow, but it took 2-3 days to get there and I had only left the note up for about six hours.
Lone Wolf
05-25-2009, 08:48
you offer a free phone with unlimited free long distance. why ask for money?
Blue Jay
05-25-2009, 09:20
him not like evil cheapys
Can I make a bumper sticker using that one. You're kind of like the Plato of the hiking world.
The Scribe
05-25-2009, 09:40
Can I make a bumper sticker using that one. You're kind of like the Plato of the hiking world.
Can you imagine the market for Matty's words of wisdom? Cafepress here we come.
you offer a free phone with unlimited free long distance. why ask for money?Why not ask for a donations? I can tell you one thing, no matter how much money goes into the bucket it will never be enough in one month to cover even the cost of the unlimited phone service, never has anyway.
I collected about $55.00 over Trail Day's, so I gave that to Taba for Little Debbies and then the remainder of the fifteen I matched and bought more snacks at Food City. In case you do not believe me you can ask Carmen down there. And I give all those snacks to those who come and use the phone.
you offer a free phone with unlimited free long distance. why ask for money?
and by the way your statement should read "you offer free use of a phone with unlimited long distance"
there is no free unlimited long distance......
kayak karl
05-25-2009, 11:18
Trying. I did quit smoking for a month but slipped the past two days. Back to no smoking later tonight.
all hospitals have charity care (depending on income). find a free clinic and get referrals. i did. was surprised what they found. nothing major, but i do sleep better knowing. take care of yourself, there are trails waiting for ya.:)
Footslogger
05-25-2009, 11:30
Sly. please go get some tests done
=============================
Sly ...listen to Wolf and the others - - GET SOME TESTS DONE. The last thing you need to do is set out hiking to see if you can do any better than yesterday. Take an hour off and get evalulated.
Best case scenario is that it's nothing at all. But you're way ahead of game if it is something and you catch it ahead of time.
'Slogger
I've taken many of the suggestions from this thread and posted them on the Trail Days website, this page:
http://www.traildays.us/09suggestions.html
If I've missed your suggestion or if you would like to add something, contact me directly, grsmith07 @ gmail.com (remove the spaces). Thanks to everyone who made recommendations for next year. We're doing a review meeting in about two weeks and if anyone is in town you are invited.
Lone Wolf
05-25-2009, 16:31
Bpitt quickly steps into the foray to shout out 'thanks' for recognizing the local churches! Woot!
is it just me that understands what NO DOGS on property means? to most hikers with dogs it means something else totally. the disrespect for the church and their rules continue.....
=============================
Sly ...listen to Wolf and the others - - GET SOME TESTS DONE. The last thing you need to do is set out hiking to see if you can do any better than yesterday. Take an hour off and get evalulated.
Best case scenario is that it's nothing at all. But you're way ahead of game if it is something and you catch it ahead of time.
'Slogger
Yeah, I'm going to blow off any backpacking for a bit to head up north to visit family and friends in MA. While I'm up there I'll try to work the system. ;)
I appreciate the concern from y'all in public and private.
Yeah, I'm going to blow off any backpacking for a bit to head up north to visit family and friends in MA. While I'm up there I'll try to work the system. ;)
I appreciate the concern from y'all in public and private.
Put out the cigarette and eat a salad!
see ya up north!!
soon
warren doyle
05-26-2009, 14:26
I still wonder why on earth people flock to a caged-in, unattractive campground that you have to pay to camp in and pay for, especially when there is so many wonderful, free campsites within a 10-15 minute drive away.
Thanks to all the hikers who attended the TD contra dance this year. You did 'mighty-fine'.
Jester2000
05-28-2009, 11:12
I still wonder why on earth people flock to a caged-in, unattractive campground that you have to pay to camp in and pay for, especially when there is so many wonderful, free campsites within a 10-15 minute drive away.
Thanks to all the hikers who attended the TD contra dance this year. You did 'mighty-fine'.
Thanks to Warren for getting this thread back on topic.
Let's take a look at the past few years at Trail Days from the above perspective:
From 2004:
Will this be the year that Trail Days finally implodes?
I agree with most of Peaks posting. I have attended/participated in every Trail Days since the second year. I have seen and heard about hiker misbehavior on an increasing basis. Hikers who are not into the 'party' scene have stopped going to Trail Days. After walking through the campground on Sunday morning last year, the scene was not impressive. Sort of like 'the lost generation'.
From 2005:
Campsites: 'trashed' means broken bottles; spray painted trees/rocks; discarded clothing; used condoms/diapers/toilet paper; beer cans; a lot of garbage lying around; discarded equipment; broken floors,sides, roofs of shelters; demolished privies; certain years on Sunday morning at the 'tannery' campground during Damascus Trail Days.
From 2006:
You asked what I would change:
1) I would make it a non-alcohol, drug-free event in public places including the campground. There are now other informal groups that can sponsor their own 'hiker parties' somewhere and sometime else. Let them assume the liability if they feel that it is so important to imbibe alcohol and drugs to heighten their hiker fellowship.
From 2007:
Damascus Trail Days will eventually implode. I'm surprised it has lasted this long. It definitely is going in a different direction then its founders intended it to be in 1987.
Many non-partier hikers avoid TD now with stories of theft, rampant alcohol use, profanity, drugs and nudity in the toxic-waste, fenced-in campground; nudity and profanity in the talent show . . .
From 2008:
(1) Why would anyone stay in a fenced-in, crowded, not-free, toxic waste site campground with all those beautiful free campsites just outside of town?
There are some quality, informative programs at Traildays but they won't be at the 'campground'.
(2) I can't understand why so many hikers feel that the fenced-in, entrance fee campground is the only choice.
As of this date Trail Days has yet to "implode" and those who choose to stay in the campground don't seem to mind that there are those who don't understand why they might choose to stay there.
Chaco Taco
06-02-2009, 22:53
I still wonder why on earth people flock to a caged-in, unattractive campground that you have to pay to camp in and pay for, especially when there is so many wonderful, free campsites within a 10-15 minute drive away.
Thanks to all the hikers who attended the TD contra dance this year. You did 'mighty-fine'.
We make it more attractive. $15 to stay for three nights with new and old friends is fine with me.
Weel if Appalachian Power has their way with a new rate increase next years trail days is probably going to cost you twenty....
trailangelmary
06-03-2009, 03:52
not many people that hike feel they deserve the title of "Friendliest Trail Town". I know a lot of people that I am currently hiking with that did not go back and will not go because of the unwarranted police enforcement.
I have heard the same thing from the majority of hikers I have spoken to in Duncannon.
I am not supporting their view because I do not see what the town is like on a regular basis. So I can't say one way or the other. But the majority are saying that Damascus has changed drastically.
I enjoyed trail days and hope to always attend the event and support the town as I am able. However, I did notice that the police presence was obviously increased and obviously stricter. I tried to be friendly but they were not.
Lone Wolf
06-03-2009, 06:59
damascus has not changed drastically.. what little change there is has been for the better. hiker attitudes/behavior have changed drastically for the worse.
I only heard a very small percentage of hikers griping about the police, however most that I talked to did say the police were ever present and that they did not have a problem with it.
Anyway something was going to have to change sooner or later because the party was going to get out of hand eventually, and in some eyes the party had already gotten out of hand.
And the hikers are not the only ones feeling the heat here, there are some locals feeling the heat as well and then there are a lot of locals that notice the police presence but welcome it.
Those here like myself who enjoy giving to hikers and bikers that traverse through here want to remain friendly. However we at times have to put up with some bad apples from out of control people and I myself have gotten tired of it.
During TD's I had to ask people that were returning back to their respective resting places after Dots closed to keep it down as they walked past my house and remind them that it it was late and that people were in bed. 98% of them complied and most apologized but there were about three that said for me to go "F" myself and that was out of only one group and that kind of behavior puts a bad taste in your mouth.
I know of a hiker that got stolen from after TD's had ended on Sunday but the thief was caught immediately, but I got stolen from as well on Saturday. It could have been from a hiker or most likely from someone just stopping in during the festivity. I had ten pocket knives stolen and I hardly ever get stolen from at all here.
I think our police department is doing a great job and they cannot or they will not distinguish between hiker or local. So don't feel like just because you are a part of a event that you are being targeted because that is not the case. Everyone is being targeted here. I even got one in my house that is being watched but being the eighteen year old that he is he has the attitude that most of his elders are stupid and that includes the police. And I hope he feels the heat so much that he keeps staying on track.